NYT: Biden Mandates Vaccines for Workers, Saying, ‘Our Patience Is Wearing Thin’

[PDXTabs]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/biden-mandates-vaccines.html

I'm curious what other folks think about this? I'm in the camp (that I just made up) that without regard to how good/bad an idea it is that the backlash is going to be bad.

[Dave1442397]

It's good. I'm always reminded of Carl Sagan when listening to anti-vaxxer idiots:

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”

[chemistk]

Kinda PTF, but I don't think this is going to be stomached well by a lot of folks.

I agree wholeheartedly that it's something that needs to be done to prop up our quickly deteriorating medical infrastructure. Without it (heck, maybe even the ship has sailed and it won't really matter), the cost to our asinine healthcare system is going to be far too great. Too many more people will die both from Covid and from conditions which Covid prevents the afflicted from receiving the proper medical attention. Not to mention the attrition among current medical professionals and the reduced interest among potential practitioners.

But we won't (not in this thread, nor the national forum) be able to avoid the conversation around the intersection between personal choice and the collective good. As if the pandemic hasn't already done enough (well, that and decades of intentional discord among various ideologies), this will almost assuredly galvanize anyone who holds the belief that government shouldn't interfere with the will of private citizens. It won't matter whether the mandate is moral/immoral, constitutional/unconstitutional, or ethical/unethical - anyone who believes that it's the latter side of each of those dichotomies is going to be permanently entrenched against what is ultimately the national interest.

There's suddenly a LOT going on right now that challenges the bedrock of what a lot of people believe this country to be founded upon. Of what it is founded upon.

I personally think we've overlooked the intersection of science, ethics, and the national interest for too long. What it means to be a citizen of this country has been perverted far too greatly, by both sides (although one far more than the other). I'm no legal scholar, nor am I a philosopher, but I see a moral reckoning on the horizon and I really hope it doesn't dawn with violence.

[scantee]

It’s good.

If anything we are way discounting the preferences of adults who are already vaccinated, which is by far the majority, around 75%. The alternative to this order is to expect the majority of people who’ve behaved responsibly to continue to tolerate the anti-social behavior of those who’ve not. The majority is absolutely fed up.

In the end this just won’t impact that huge a percentage of adults. Most adults are already vaccinated, of those who aren’t a few percentage will do it without much griping. The remainder includes people who don’t work or who work for companies with less than 100 people. So we are really talking about maybe 10% of adults who will be directly impacted by this in a way that goes against their wishes.

[OtherJen]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/biden-mandates-vaccines.html

I'm curious what other folks think about this? I'm in the camp (that I just made up) that without regard to how good/bad an idea it is that the backlash is going to be bad.

I think it’s a good decision. I agree that the backlash might be bad.

[Dicey]

God, I love Carl Sagan. Thanks for that quote @Dave1442397.

I'm 100% in support of Biden's vaccine mandate.

Those who predicted America would destroy itself from within seem eerily prescient these days.

[brandon1827]

It's good. I'm always reminded of Carl Sagan when listening to anti-vaxxer idiots:

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”

This...a million percent. The celebration of ignorance is one of the most disgusting parts of our current reality.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

[CodingHare]

I am a Federal contactor.  Everyone at my company is so relieved.  Now when we eventually go back to in person meeting wit the Fed, we can at least be guaranteed everyone in the room is vaccinated.  So thankful Biden has a spine.  We shouldn't be held hostage by the 20% of morons in this country.

[brandon1827]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Is it authoritarian when something like 75%+ of the populations supports it, it's for the public good, and will potentially save a lot of lives?

[chemistk]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

These may be the price to pay to move toward the cessation of the celebration of ignorance.

We once were a country where an individual, with little more than some tools, land, and guidance, could live without support from external organizations. We are no longer that country.

I don't address this to you, Tyler, I address the following to whomever feels so inclined to believe that they are capable of successfully managing the vast amount of information of the world around them and carefully accounting for their own biases and heuristics:

Fuck the perception of your right to choose to be ignorant because you believe there is a better way.

Or at least, if you want to choose to ignore modern science, population-level ethics, comingled morality, and just generally being a genial person then you are free to live away from everyone else on your own as if it's the early 1800's again.

The questions you raise are herrings. They're moot. This is a precedent and a potentially dangerous one as so many are but the perversion of rational debate to the argument that each side should have its own voice heard and its own fears allayed needs to end.

Believe you me, I am all for rational debate, but when the shitty infrastructure we have is falling apart because the very people who vote to continue to make it shitty are consuming its resources, the period for debate over the efficacy of public heath measures has expired.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Is it authoritarian when something like 75%+ of the populations supports it, it's for the public good, and will potentially save a lot of lives?

Yes

[GuitarStv]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/08/vaccine-mandate-strong-supreme-court-precedent-510280

There's a pretty strong precedent for mandating vaccines . . . all the way back to 1904 with the smallpox vaccine.  Did that lead to the problems you're concerned about?  If not, maybe it's not really the issue you're making it out to be.

“There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good.  On any other basis, organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy.”

I particularly like this comment from conservative supreme court justice Harlan:
“Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”

[PeteD01]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Not many will agree with you as you are implying that the fundamental right of catching and dying a protracted horrific death from an infectious disease is being threatened.
That is not the case - so you can relax.
What is being disputed is the right of showing up all at once sick at the ER and clogging up the works in general.
There is no right to mass suicide.
I can assure you once cases have come down to a rate at which the COVID victims can be processed 6 feet under without inconveniencing others too much (the endemic stage), everything will calm down and the right to die from COVID will be fully restored.
The other questions - how do you come up with this stuff?
They got absulutely nothing to do with management of a pandemic with nearly 75% prevalence of decent immuniy.

[economista]

As a federal employee I’m happy with the mandate. A few weeks ago they had everyone fill out a form saying if you were vaccinated, not vaccinated, or refused to say. However, I was worried about going back into the office soon and being around unvaccinated colleagues, especially since my kids are too young to be vaccinated.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/08/vaccine-mandate-strong-supreme-court-precedent-510280

There's a pretty strong precedent for mandating vaccines . . . all the way back to 1904 with the smallpox vaccine.  Did that lead to the problems you're concerned about?  If not, maybe it's not really the issue you're making it out to be.

“There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good.  On any other basis, organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy.”

I particularly like this comment from conservative supreme court justice Harlan:
“Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”

The constitutionality will be figured out.

So thats a yes then to yearly covid vaccines being mandatory along with firings for not getting boosters? see im just saying the quite part out loud. this is what you want right? its ok to say yes, just be honest about it.

[scantee]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Is it authoritarian when something like 75%+ of the populations supports it, it's for the public good, and will potentially save a lot of lives?

Yes

So just do the weekly testing. You’re not even being forced to vaccinate.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Not many will agree with you as you are implying that the fundamental right of catching and dying a protracted horrific death from an infectious disease is being threatened.
That is not the case - so you can relax.
What is being disputed is the right of showing up all at once sick at the ER and clogging up the works in general.
There is no right to mass suicide.
I can assure you once cases have come down to a rate at which the COVID victims can be processed 6 feet under without inconveniencing others too much (the endemic stage), everything will calm down and the right to die from COVID will be fully restored.
The other questions - how do you come up with this stuff?
They got absulutely nothing to do with management of a pandemic with nearly 75% prevalence of decent immuniy.

In other words... " just a couple weeks to flatten the curve" hows that working out?

[jim555]

About time we stopped catering to morons.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Is it authoritarian when something like 75%+ of the populations supports it, it's for the public good, and will potentially save a lot of lives?

Yes

So just do the weekly testing. You’re not even being forced to vaccinate.

Fair point - that seems reasonable.

When did we figure out COVID only infects people who work at employers with over 100 people. I’m no scientist but I don’t think that’s the way it works. Aren’t most employees working for a small business?

[scantee]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Is it authoritarian when something like 75%+ of the populations supports it, it's for the public good, and will potentially save a lot of lives?

Yes

So just do the weekly testing. You’re not even being forced to vaccinate.

Fair point - that seems reasonable.

When did we figure out COVID only infects people who work at employers with over 100 people. I’m no scientist but I don’t think that’s the way it works. Aren’t most employees working for a small business?

I agree that we should expand this order to businesses of all sizes.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Is it authoritarian when something like 75%+ of the populations supports it, it's for the public good, and will potentially save a lot of lives?

Yes

So just do the weekly testing. You’re not even being forced to vaccinate.

Fair point - that seems reasonable.

When did we figure out COVID only infects people who work at employers with over 100 people. I’m no scientist but I don’t think that’s the way it works. Aren’t most employees working for a small business?

I agree that we should expand this order to businesses of all sizes.

See that is at least rationale. Thank you

[Kris]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Not many will agree with you as you are implying that the fundamental right of catching and dying a protracted horrific death from an infectious disease is being threatened.
That is not the case - so you can relax.
What is being disputed is the right of showing up all at once sick at the ER and clogging up the works in general.
There is no right to mass suicide.
I can assure you once cases have come down to a rate at which the COVID victims can be processed 6 feet under without inconveniencing others too much (the endemic stage), everything will calm down and the right to die from COVID will be fully restored.
The other questions - how do you come up with this stuff?
They got absulutely nothing to do with management of a pandemic with nearly 75% prevalence of decent immuniy.

In other words... " just a couple weeks to flatten the curve" hows that working out?

How it worked was a bunch of people refused to do it, and so it didn't work.

[CodingHare]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

My god, I wish this country had the balls to actually enforce vaccines.  All the kids who die because of their dumbass anti-vax parents and never got a choice would thank you, if they were actually alive.

I'm going to say it: authoritarian != actually enforcing policy.  Unless you want to say it is authoritarian that we require all kids to get a K-12 education (if you don't it is a legal crime called abuse.)  Otherwise locking someone up for murder is authoritarian (how dare you infringe on the murderer's right to liberty!)  The right likes to pretend any policing of their dumbassery is going to turn the US into the Peoples Republic of US.  That's a strawman and not even worth debating.

I would love mandates for all vaccines with only medical exceptions (no religious exceptions, your beliefs do not effect reality.)  I think you should be fired if you refuse to comply, because you don't get to endanger me because you are stupid anymore.  And yes, we should mandate flu shots, mandate childhood vaccination.  This is all great public health policy and will save lives with barely any inconvenience except the bruised egos of the ignorant.

In Biden's words, "our patient is wearing thin" indeed.

[PeteD01]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

Not many will agree with you as you are implying that the fundamental right of catching and dying a protracted horrific death from an infectious disease is being threatened.
That is not the case - so you can relax.
What is being disputed is the right of showing up all at once sick at the ER and clogging up the works in general.
There is no right to mass suicide.
I can assure you once cases have come down to a rate at which the COVID victims can be processed 6 feet under without inconveniencing others too much (the endemic stage), everything will calm down and the right to die from COVID will be fully restored.
The other questions - how do you come up with this stuff?
They got absulutely nothing to do with management of a pandemic with nearly 75% prevalence of decent immuniy.

In other words... " just a couple weeks to flatten the curve" hows that working out?

Has nothing to do with flattening the curve but with hastening the transition from pandemic to endemic COVID while limiting collateral damage via increased vaccinations. Delta is doing a good job creating immunity in large swaths of the populace but at a high cost - so vaccines are the way to go.
The vast majority understands this by now.

[GuitarStv]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/08/vaccine-mandate-strong-supreme-court-precedent-510280

There's a pretty strong precedent for mandating vaccines . . . all the way back to 1904 with the smallpox vaccine.  Did that lead to the problems you're concerned about?  If not, maybe it's not really the issue you're making it out to be.

“There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good.  On any other basis, organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy.”

I particularly like this comment from conservative supreme court justice Harlan:
“Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”

The constitutionality will be figured out.

So thats a yes then to yearly covid vaccines being mandatory along with firings for not getting boosters? see im just saying the quite part out loud. this is what you want right? its ok to say yes, just be honest about it.

Fortunately, the constitutionality has been figured out - there's strong supreme court precedent saying that vaccine mandates are perfectly fine.  And we haven't seemed to run into any of the problems that you're concerned about in the 116 years since that was decided.  So from a historic perspective, your concerns seem to be baseless.

Do I personally want yearly covid vaccine mandates?  Of course not.  I'd prefer if people would choose to do things that will protect themselves and others of their own volition.  But that's not what a large portion of people are choosing.  And (given the daily death rate) it's very clearly putting others at risk.

Am I OK with people being given the choice of daily testing or covid vaccination in order to keep their job?  Yes, absolutely.  Being vaccinated reduces the chance of infection, and reduces the amount of virus shed - this reduces harm to other workers.  Being tested regularly significantly reduces the chance that a sick worker will infect a healthy one.  We're going into the second year of this pandemic.  I'm not seeing any authoritarian tyranny in this sensible public health policy.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

My god, I wish this country had the balls to actually enforce vaccines.  All the kids who die because of their dumbass anti-vax parents and never got a choice would thank you, if they were actually alive.

I'm going to say it: authoritarian != actually enforcing policy.  Unless you want to say it is authoritarian that we require all kids to get a K-12 education (if you don't it is a legal crime called abuse.)  Otherwise locking someone up for murder is authoritarian (how dare you infringe on the murderer's right to liberty!)  The right likes to pretend any policing of their dumbassery is going to turn the US into the Peoples Republic of US.  That's a strawman and not even worth debating.

I would love mandates for all vaccines with only medical exceptions (no religious exceptions, your beliefs do not effect reality.)  I think you should be fired if you refuse to comply, because you don't get to endanger me because you are stupid anymore.  And yes, we should mandate flu shots, mandate childhood vaccination.  This is all great public health policy and will save lives with barely any inconvenience except the bruised egos of the ignorant.

In Biden's words, "our patient is wearing thin" indeed.

Brutal honesty I love it.

What should we do with that 10-15% of our population who holds out? The current prescription ( no pun intended) is the weekly test or financial ruin. Is that really good enough ? I mean with a large enough amount of unvaccinated they still put us at risk.

[bacchi]

This is realpolitik.

Those who voted for Biden won't mind this mandate.

Those who voted for Trump would never vote for Biden anyway. Those who believe covid is a hoax/the vaccine is a hoax/we're-being-replaced would never vote for Biden anyway.

Meanwhile, hospitals are full (the seasonal flu doesn't fill up hospitals state wide) and the economy is at risk. It makes sense for Biden to (try to) enact such a mandate.

[EvenSteven]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

My god, I wish this country had the balls to actually enforce vaccines.  All the kids who die because of their dumbass anti-vax parents and never got a choice would thank you, if they were actually alive.

I'm going to say it: authoritarian != actually enforcing policy.  Unless you want to say it is authoritarian that we require all kids to get a K-12 education (if you don't it is a legal crime called abuse.)  Otherwise locking someone up for murder is authoritarian (how dare you infringe on the murderer's right to liberty!)  The right likes to pretend any policing of their dumbassery is going to turn the US into the Peoples Republic of US.  That's a strawman and not even worth debating.

I would love mandates for all vaccines with only medical exceptions (no religious exceptions, your beliefs do not effect reality.)  I think you should be fired if you refuse to comply, because you don't get to endanger me because you are stupid anymore.  And yes, we should mandate flu shots, mandate childhood vaccination.  This is all great public health policy and will save lives with barely any inconvenience except the bruised egos of the ignorant.

In Biden's words, "our patient is wearing thin" indeed.

Brutal honesty I love it.

What should we do with that 10-15% of our population who holds out? The current prescription ( no pun intended) is the weekly test or financial ruin. Is that really good enough ? I mean with a large enough amount of unvaccinated they still put us at risk.

There have been vaccine mandates in place for as long as I have been alive. You have to have them in order to attend school. Have you always been against vaccine mandates, or is it specific to vaccines against covid?

[waltworks]

Brutal honesty I love it.

What should we do with that 10-15% of our population who holds out? The current prescription ( no pun intended) is the weekly test or financial ruin. Is that really good enough ? I mean with a large enough amount of unvaccinated they still put us at risk.

My preference, honestly, would be to modify EMTALA to allow hospitals to refuse treatment to unvaccinated covid patients (with exemptions for people who can't safely be vaccinated and such, of course). I'm actually basically ok with idiots killing themselves off.

That's probably not doable, though, and they're clogging up the hospitals such that I'd be worried if I got hit by a car I wouldn't be able to see a doctor quickly, so here we are.

-W

[CodingHare]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

My god, I wish this country had the balls to actually enforce vaccines.  All the kids who die because of their dumbass anti-vax parents and never got a choice would thank you, if they were actually alive.

I'm going to say it: authoritarian != actually enforcing policy.  Unless you want to say it is authoritarian that we require all kids to get a K-12 education (if you don't it is a legal crime called abuse.)  Otherwise locking someone up for murder is authoritarian (how dare you infringe on the murderer's right to liberty!)  The right likes to pretend any policing of their dumbassery is going to turn the US into the Peoples Republic of US.  That's a strawman and not even worth debating.

I would love mandates for all vaccines with only medical exceptions (no religious exceptions, your beliefs do not effect reality.)  I think you should be fired if you refuse to comply, because you don't get to endanger me because you are stupid anymore.  And yes, we should mandate flu shots, mandate childhood vaccination.  This is all great public health policy and will save lives with barely any inconvenience except the bruised egos of the ignorant.

In Biden's words, "our patient is wearing thin" indeed.

Brutal honesty I love it.

What should we do with that 10-15% of our population who holds out? The current prescription ( no pun intended) is the weekly test or financial ruin. Is that really good enough ? I mean with a large enough amount of unvaccinated they still put us at risk.

They shouldn't be allowed in government buildings (and per this order, contractors of the federal government.)  I'd also like to see them not allowed in public schools.  I'd also like to see them given bottom priority in hospitals for ICU beds, since they are clogging up beds needed for other health conditions like heart attacks and strokes, for that matter.

In short, make their lives inconvenient and keep them as far away from reasonable people as possible.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

My god, I wish this country had the balls to actually enforce vaccines.  All the kids who die because of their dumbass anti-vax parents and never got a choice would thank you, if they were actually alive.

I'm going to say it: authoritarian != actually enforcing policy.  Unless you want to say it is authoritarian that we require all kids to get a K-12 education (if you don't it is a legal crime called abuse.)  Otherwise locking someone up for murder is authoritarian (how dare you infringe on the murderer's right to liberty!)  The right likes to pretend any policing of their dumbassery is going to turn the US into the Peoples Republic of US.  That's a strawman and not even worth debating.

I would love mandates for all vaccines with only medical exceptions (no religious exceptions, your beliefs do not effect reality.)  I think you should be fired if you refuse to comply, because you don't get to endanger me because you are stupid anymore.  And yes, we should mandate flu shots, mandate childhood vaccination.  This is all great public health policy and will save lives with barely any inconvenience except the bruised egos of the ignorant.

In Biden's words, "our patient is wearing thin" indeed.

Brutal honesty I love it.

What should we do with that 10-15% of our population who holds out? The current prescription ( no pun intended) is the weekly test or financial ruin. Is that really good enough ? I mean with a large enough amount of unvaccinated they still put us at risk.

There have been vaccine mandates in place for as long as I have been alive. You have to have them in order to attend school. Have you always been against vaccine mandates, or is it specific to vaccines against covid?

We’ll this is the reverse order right ? Mandates for adults not for kids.

Which vaccine does your employer mandate you have ? Never once in my near 40 years on this planet have I had any employer ask me to provide proof of vaccination. Granted I’m not in healthcare or working in an old age home. Bless those that do.

To answer your question because I do so hate having questions answered with more questions
  I am not against vaccine mandates for kids going to school. I am extremely concerned about what steps we go to to vaccinate unwilling adults. So far financial ruin.

But how, how I say do we round up those hold outs who put us all at risk.

[J Boogie]

I personally think we've overlooked the intersection of science, ethics, and the national interest for too long. What it means to be a citizen of this country has been perverted far too greatly, by both sides (although one far more than the other). I'm no legal scholar, nor am I a philosopher, but I see a moral reckoning on the horizon and I really hope it doesn't dawn with violence.

I think there is a certain way in which western affluenza has morphed the ethos of liberalism into an ethos of entitlement. The amazonification of the west has us thinking we are citizens similar to how we are prime members. We come first, our whims must be catered to, and we must not be inconvenienced.

When I got a bachelors, the diploma said something to the effect that I now bear the rights and the responsibilities of a graduate of UST.

The US gov hasn't had to ration basic goods since WWII. The US gov ended the draft. There hasn't been a sense that citizenship comes with obligations for a long time yet for rights we have certainly sensed a growing demand for those to be enshrined.

Not that US citizens haven't been willing to sacrifice for their country - they just have gotten used to doing so on their own terms, which often align to ideological or partisan views they hold. There are tons of activists, volunteers, soldiers, etc who choose to serve the country - but many do so not out of duty and obligation but out of a desire for the country to be changed along lines that align with their worldview.


Our muscles of patriotic duty have not only atrophied, but many are genuinely unable to differentiate between doing your unpleasant patriotic duty and slipping into tyranny. In addition to the affluenza of developed nations, another reason for this suspicion of tyranny is that the bureaucratic ruling class has lost the trust of the citizenry. Too many times top officials have faced little in the way of consequences for lies, serious errors of judgment, and otherwise unethical behavior. This lack of accountability where almost no one important loses their job over anything leads everyday people to believe unchecked fools and sociopaths are in charge, and so they are loathe to trust and obey Caligula.

[Tyler durden]

We all agree this is the beginning not the end right?

Do those who support the Authoritarian actions of Biden, also support:

Annual mandates for Covid vaccines?
Mandates for boosters? Up to how many per year?
If I refuse a booster, should I be fired?
Should we mandate Flu shots that work 50% of the time? Flu is more deadly for kids, so if it saves one life?

My god, I wish this country had the balls to actually enforce vaccines.  All the kids who die because of their dumbass anti-vax parents and never got a choice would thank you, if they were actually alive.

I'm going to say it: authoritarian != actually enforcing policy.  Unless you want to say it is authoritarian that we require all kids to get a K-12 education (if you don't it is a legal crime called abuse.)  Otherwise locking someone up for murder is authoritarian (how dare you infringe on the murderer's right to liberty!)  The right likes to pretend any policing of their dumbassery is going to turn the US into the Peoples Republic of US.  That's a strawman and not even worth debating.

I would love mandates for all vaccines with only medical exceptions (no religious exceptions, your beliefs do not effect reality.)  I think you should be fired if you refuse to comply, because you don't get to endanger me because you are stupid anymore.  And yes, we should mandate flu shots, mandate childhood vaccination.  This is all great public health policy and will save lives with barely any inconvenience except the bruised egos of the ignorant.

In Biden's words, "our patient is wearing thin" indeed.

Brutal honesty I love it.

What should we do with that 10-15% of our population who holds out? The current prescription ( no pun intended) is the weekly test or financial ruin. Is that really good enough ? I mean with a large enough amount of unvaccinated they still put us at risk.

They shouldn't be allowed in government buildings (and per this order, contractors of the federal government.)  I'd also like to see them not allowed in public schools.  I'd also like to see them given bottom priority in hospitals for ICU beds, since they are clogging up beds needed for other health conditions like heart attacks and strokes, for that matter.

In short, make their lives inconvenient and keep them as far away from reasonable people as possible.

Cool so like a triage system where it’s not your level of illness but your vaccine status bumps you to the front.

And the financial ruin and job loss too right ? No issues firing someone who refuses. We moved past government buildings. This is the private sector now.

[CodingHare]

We’ll this is the reverse order right ? Mandates for adults not for kids.

Which vaccine does your employer mandate you have ? Never once in my near 40 years on this planet have I had any employer ask me to provide proof of vaccination. Granted I’m not in healthcare or working in an old age home. Bless those that do.

To answer your question because I do so hate having questions answered with more questions
  I am not against vaccine mandates for kids going to school. I am extremely concerned about what steps we go to to vaccinate unwilling adults. So far financial ruin.

But how, how I say do we round up those hold outs who put us all at risk.

Are you seriously trotting out concentration camps as a possibility here?  Wooooow.  Strawman city here.  I guess we should just roll over and let un-vaccinated people cough on us in the breakrooms, the only possible alternative is tyranny.

Good thing the rest of us live with something called nuance and acceptable outcomes of your personal actions.

[Tyler durden]

We’ll this is the reverse order right ? Mandates for adults not for kids.

Which vaccine does your employer mandate you have ? Never once in my near 40 years on this planet have I had any employer ask me to provide proof of vaccination. Granted I’m not in healthcare or working in an old age home. Bless those that do.

To answer your question because I do so hate having questions answered with more questions
  I am not against vaccine mandates for kids going to school. I am extremely concerned about what steps we go to to vaccinate unwilling adults. So far financial ruin.

But how, how I say do we round up those hold outs who put us all at risk.

Are you seriously trotting out concentration camps as a possibility here?  Wooooow.  Strawman city here.  I guess we should just roll over and let un-vaccinated people cough on us in the breakrooms, the only possible alternative is tyranny.

Good thing the rest of us live with something called nuance and acceptable outcomes of your personal actions.

Oh heavens no I didn’t mean round up in that context. Why is your mind going to that dark place.

But we can’t just let a large percentage remain unvaccinated. We would need to identify them then do something. Otherwise what’s the point of all this. As you said they will just go around coughing on us.

[GuitarStv]

We’ll this is the reverse order right ? Mandates for adults not for kids.

Which vaccine does your employer mandate you have ? Never once in my near 40 years on this planet have I had any employer ask me to provide proof of vaccination. Granted I’m not in healthcare or working in an old age home. Bless those that do.

To answer your question because I do so hate having questions answered with more questions
  I am not against vaccine mandates for kids going to school. I am extremely concerned about what steps we go to to vaccinate unwilling adults. So far financial ruin.

But how, how I say do we round up those hold outs who put us all at risk.

Are you seriously trotting out concentration camps as a possibility here?  Wooooow.  Strawman city here.  I guess we should just roll over and let un-vaccinated people cough on us in the breakrooms, the only possible alternative is tyranny.

Good thing the rest of us live with something called nuance and acceptable outcomes of your personal actions.

Oh heavens no I didn’t mean round up in that context. Why is your mind going to that dark place.

But we can’t just let a large percentage remain unvaccinated. We would need to identify them then do something. Otherwise what’s the point of all this. As you said they will just go around coughing on us.

You're against vaccine mandates - so what exactly do you propose as a solution?

[jim555]

I agree that we should expand this order to businesses of all sizes.

The Federal government can only regulate interstate commerce, that is why it is 100.  The OSHA statue that is being used for the rule only applies to 100+.

[PDXTabs]

My preference, honestly, would be to modify EMTALA to allow hospitals to refuse treatment to unvaccinated covid patients (with exemptions for people who can't safely be vaccinated and such, of course). I'm actually basically ok with idiots killing themselves off.

I think that is a very slippery slope. Could you imagine refusing to treat gay men for HIV*? Could you imagine refusing to treat IV drug users? Could you imagine refusing to treat obese people? Diet, in spite of the pandemic, is still the #1 killer in the USA. Why don't we stop treating people with a bad diet?

* - this is a historical reference to how the USA as a whole felt about gay men dying in the 1980s

[PDXTabs]

This is realpolitik.

It's real something. I understand the worker safety argument that they are using. I understand that the voters who voted for Biden might mostly be in support. But can you name one other nominally developed western democracy with a similar mandate? Why don't Ireland and the UK have this if its such a good idea, politically, economically, ethically, or socially?

I think that's what surprises me the most. Like I said, without regard to the wisdom of the mandate I think that we are going to see a lot of backlash.

[bacchi]

My preference, honestly, would be to modify EMTALA to allow hospitals to refuse treatment to unvaccinated covid patients (with exemptions for people who can't safely be vaccinated and such, of course). I'm actually basically ok with idiots killing themselves off.

I think that is a very slippery slope. Could you imagine refusing to treat gay men for HIV? Could you imagine refusing to treat IV drug users? Could you imagine refusing to treat obese people? Diet, in spite of the pandemic, is still the #1 killer in the USA. Why don't we stop treating people with a bad diet?

Because diet related illnesses aren't maxing out all of the hospital ICU beds in several states? Because even the largest hospital complex in the world (TMC in Houston) can't keep up with covid cases from the unvaccinated?

But you're right. It is a bad precedent. I'm also ambivalent about Biden's mandate; I'd rather he require it of anyone receiving fed dollars (which includes nearly all hospitals and nursing homes and road construction and the military and...).

[CodingHare]

This is realpolitik.

It's real something. I understand the worker safety argument that they are using. I understand that the voters who voted for Biden might mostly be in support. But can you name one other nominally developed western democracy with a similar mandate? Why don't Ireland and the UK have this if its such a good idea, politically, economically, or ethically?

I think that's what surprises me the most. Like I said, without regard to the wisdom of the mandate I think that we are going to see a lot of backlash.

Canada is also mandating vaccines for all federal public servants, as well as all air, train, and cruise ship travellers.

Most of the Euro zone countries are mandating vaccines for health workers, particularly workers at their equivalents of nursing homes.

I'd guess the reason we aren't seeing mandates there is the virus is under much better control, and there isn't as significant amount of the population lemming themselves.

[PDXTabs]

Because diet related illnesses aren't maxing out all of the hospital ICU beds in several states? Because even the largest hospital complex in the world (TMC in Houston) can't keep up with covid cases from the unvaccinated?

That's the best I've see that argument articulated. That's a valid point. If only we had some sort of army of engineers maintained by the federal government that could have build temporary COVID hospitals for all of those people.

[CodingHare]

Because diet related illnesses aren't maxing out all of the hospital ICU beds in several states? Because even the largest hospital complex in the world (TMC in Houston) can't keep up with covid cases from the unvaccinated?

That's the best I've see that argument articulated. That's a valid point. If only we had some sort of army of engineers maintained by the federal government that could have build temporary COVID hospitals for all of those people.

To make a very conservative argument, why should my tax dollars go to supporting the choice these people are making to not be vaccinated?  There isn't free money to deploy those people.

[PDXTabs]

I'd guess the reason we aren't seeing mandates there is the virus is under much better control, and there isn't as significant amount of the population lemming themselves.

I am aware of the other mandates that you wrote about. But those are not the ones I was in reference to.

The US is 53% fully vaccinated, Germany is 62% fully vaccinated, and the UK is 65% fully vaccinated. Those are measurable differences but are they really all that meaningful?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

Or to put it another way: Scotland has a very liberal very functional government by US standards (IMHO). Why aren't they mandating vaccines? Is there something that they know about liberalism that the USA has forgotten? Or perhaps this is a red herring and the real reason is that Scotland has maintained a mask mandate for the 12+ crowd for the entire pandemic AFAIK.

[bacchi]

Because diet related illnesses aren't maxing out all of the hospital ICU beds in several states? Because even the largest hospital complex in the world (TMC in Houston) can't keep up with covid cases from the unvaccinated?

That's the best I've see that argument articulated. That's a valid point. If only we had some sort of army of engineers maintained by the federal government that could have build temporary COVID hospitals for all of those people.

To make a very conservative argument, why should my tax dollars go to supporting the choice these people are making to not be vaccinated?  There isn't free money to deploy those people.

It's not really about the hospital building, it's about staffing. This is why ICU beds at your local hospital fluctuate week to week.

[J Boogie]

If only we had some sort of army of engineers maintained by the federal government that could have build temporary COVID hospitals for all of those people.

I think they'd choose death over getting mAb & dexamethasone in a FEMA camp. Maybe add some ivermectin to the mix and you'd get some takers.

[jim555]

It is a workplace safety issue.  Plague rats are a threat to everyone around them.  The move is totally legal and long overdue.

[PDXTabs]

It's not really about the hospital building, it's about staffing. This is why ICU beds at your local hospital fluctuate week to week.

Hey, I never said that we had to give them ICU beds. Those things are expensive and rare. But doctors do their own triage. If they wanted to transfer unvaccinated patients out of the COVID warehouses that we setup in my hypothetical example (doesn't anyone remember Italy in the beginning of the pandemic?) that's on them.

[PDXTabs]

It is a workplace safety issue.   Plague rats are a threat to everyone around them.

I agree.

The move is totally legal and long overdue.

I think the lawsuits are going to say that plague rats have a right to free association with other plague rats. I'm not sure how far that legal argument goes. But I'm pretty sure that a lot of people are going to agree, without regard to any sense or logic, moral obligation, or reason.