New Netflix Documentary: "Hot Girls Wanted" (NSFW subject matter)

[MoneyCat]

     I tend to watch a lot of documentaries on Netflix and the new Sundance documentary "Hot Girls Wanted" produced by Rashida Jones came up as a suggested title, so I decided to check it out.  It's focused on "pro-am" pornography -- short for "professional amateur" -- but there is no nudity or anything pornographic in the film beyond what is suggested.  Basically, a 23-year-old male "recruiter" in Miami, FL puts up Craigslist ads offering free flights for any young women who want to become porn stars and the girls who take him up on the offer stay together at his house, like a dormitory, paying rent to him and finding "talent agents" who set them up with "reality show"-style porn studios in Florida.  The girls earn about $800-$1000 per scene, but their careers tend to last less than a year before they "burn out" and go home.
     I'm opposed to pornography because I think it's exploitative of women and a lot of the documentary seems to bear this out.  The girls' family relationships suffer badly from their work and they face some pretty serious physical issues, including one girl who ends up with a cyst on her private parts.  The worst stuff is where the girls start to "age out" from doing "teeny bopper" porn and end up doing abusive and racist porn to keep earning money.  One girl earned $25,000 in four months, but ended up with only $2000 in her bank account when she finished due to all the costs associated with the job, which are not covered by their employers.
     The documentary makes a good point that there is very little regulation of this industry.  Performers generally don't receive medical or retirement benefits.  There are no labor unions in the industry to protect workers.  All porn actors are treated as independent contractors and there are few, if any, workplace protections and no workers' compensation if they get hurt on the job.
     Anyway, I thought it was an interesting and very sad documentary and I was wondering if anyone else saw it.  The documentary seems to be opposed to "sex positive" notions of third-wave feminism as well as "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" (or bra straps as the case may be) notions of libertarianism.  These young women were trying to monetize their "assets" to create better lives for themselves and porn ends up ruining their lives instead.

[arebelspy]

That's really sad.

One girl earned $25,000 in four months, but ended up with only $2000 in her bank account when she finished due to all the costs associated with the job, which are not covered by their employers.

Even if she had kept it all, an annual wage of 75k is not that good for what you're doing.

[MoneyCat]

That's really sad.

One girl earned $25,000 in four months, but ended up with only $2000 in her bank account when she finished due to all the costs associated with the job, which are not covered by their employers.

Even if she had kept it all, an annual wage of 75k is not that good for what you're doing.

The pornography industry preys on poor, uneducated women who see it as a glamorous escape from poverty and unskilled minimum wage work.  The girls in the documentary comment on how they feel like they are being treated as "princesses" by the pornographers while they are in demand, but once they "age out" or become "yesterday's news", the industry spits them out with no future and often with some pretty serious physical and emotional problems.

[Squirrel away]

It sounds interesting in a way. I'm a sex positive feminist but there are obvious issues surrounding porn. Maybe people watching the documentary might now be a bit more discerning about what porn they watch if they understand what some actors go through.

[2Birds1Stone]

Ho's gonna ho.

[trailrated]

Sounds like a very interesting documentary going into a situation that most people are too afraid to talk about openly. I think I am going to check it out later on this week, do you feel like the perspective was different because it was produced by a woman instead of a man?

I'm opposed to pornography because I think it's exploitative of women and a lot of the documentary seems to bear this out.

I guess I do not share your view here (maybe the documentary will change that) but while I am sure you can find porn that exploits any group to extreme measures, I don't find that necessarily true for all of them. I guess it depends on who the audience is that it is targeting.

I would equate it to sports, if you look at the Fifa men's World Cup and compare it to the women's World Cup, I am sure it is easy to find for both sides but the one that gets more recognition, advertising, revenue, etc. is the one that has the most consumption and the largest audience. (In this case maybe porn to be "consumed" by men that exploits women).

Just wondering, how did it portray the women who chose to go down that path? Would you consider them to be strong and independent, or coming from a background with some major issues? On a last note, I think you ended your post with a pretty powerful statement.

These young women were trying to monetize their "assets" to create better lives for themselves and porn ends up ruining their lives instead.

I am intrigued, I will check it out. Thanks for sharing.

[MoneyCat]

Sounds like a very interesting documentary going into a situation that most people are too afraid to talk about openly. I think I am going to check it out later on this week, do you feel like the perspective was different because it was produced by a woman instead of a man?

     Rashida Jones has become very well-known in feminist circles for being opposed to the sexual objectification of women and she completely rejects sex-positive feminism, so I think that plays a large part of the documentary's message.  I don't know if the message would be different if a man produced this instead of her, since almost all of the documentary is footage filmed with the girls' participation.  There are some "cards" throughout with statistics about pornography that direct the message, but most of it comes directly from the girls' voices or actions in the film.

Just wondering, how did it portray the women who chose to go down that path? Would you consider them to be strong and independent, or coming from a background with some major issues?

I guess the girls in the film are about as strong and independent as someone could be at 18 or 19 years old with no money to their name.  They put on a big show of being tough and mature, but that tends to fall flat with the viewer.  (I'm thinking of one particular scene where a girl attempts to freestyle rap.)  Mostly, they seem overwhelmed by the easy money, fame, and adulation that seems to come with the job.  They are shown partying every night, which probably factors into how quickly they lose their money, but the partying is understandable when you realize they are coming from nothing and the experience is so overwhelming.

They get into the background of some of the girls and they mostly appear to come from fairly stable, if not economically strong, homes.  There are a lot of high school and family photos shown during the course of the film.  One girl has to break the news to her parents about her new career and it devastates them.  The documentary seems to suggest that popular culture is seducing otherwise stable young women into thinking pornography is a path to fame and fortune through the examples of celebrities like Kim Kardashian and others.

[expectopatronum]

I saw it. I thought it was very interesting. MoneyCat's summary is pretty much dead on.

At least one of the main girls was from a loving home with proud parents. I thought it did well avoiding the "all porn stars have daddy issues" categorization. Some of them seemed to be in it because they enjoyed it (either liked sex, or liked feeling like a star, or both); others thought they could get famous and rich. They were not realistic about their true income (for example, having to spend money on clothes/lingerie for shoots, and getting paid $1000 at once meant they thought they could afford something when they really couldn't) or their true potential (not knowing most girls are done after 3-6 months). Heck, and one girl's method of birth control was Plan B and pulling out. She kept her parents in the dark as long as possible, and she didn't really have someone to go to who could point out the realities.

They also generally weren't good advocates for themselves because they were so inexperienced at being in the real world. What do you do when you've flown out for a scene and you weren't told what it involved, but they won't pay you anything unless you finish the scene?

It did portray the industry as taking advantage of these girls, despite paying them. They know that a lot of these girls are at a transitional age, likely seeking their first "real" paying job, possibly in a hypersexual phase, and there's basically infinite demand for teen porn and an ever-replenishing pool of teens. Once you figure it out, you can stay or go, but they don't care if you go because you're so replaceable. Unlike a job as a skilled worker, you have little to leverage. The film touches a bit on the impact on personal life and doesn't even bother with the professional; that would have been a good contribution, IMO.

If I had a teenage daughter, it would be an interesting (though awkward) topic to discuss because of all the issues it brings up.

[expectopatronum]

They are shown partying every night, which probably factors into how quickly they lose their money, but the partying is understandable when you realize they are coming from nothing and the experience is so overwhelming.

Exactly. I mean, my first job paid $60K, and I was raised with pretty decent money skills, and my reaction was: is this a lot of money...? How much am I supposed to be saving? I can't imagine being away from home, getting paid $1000 per scene for a month straight, living in a house with 6 other teenagers, not knowing my work offers are statistically likely to dry up in a mere couple of months. I didn't get the idea the girls knew the last thing about taxes, either.

Oh, and the rap scene - that same girl was talking about how she had "done more in the last month than she had in her entire [18 year old...] life". She starts talking about partying and riding in Lambos. It was sad, mostly.

[forummm]

I don't have Netflix so I haven't seen this.

The discussion brings to mind the other entertainment industries (music, TV, movies, sports). In those industries you also have a whole lot of people who want to make it big, and only a few who do hit the top. The people who don't make it big don't make any money, but the people who do make it rake in a ton. There is definitely a ton of "casting couch" type stuff in music, TV, and film, and a lot of pressure on young people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. And there are unrealistic expectations and false glamour heaped on the industry. People get star struck and fame hungry. I guess it sounds very similar to me.

[arebelspy]

I guess it sounds very similar to me.

The end result (broke with very little prospects) may look similar, but I think there are a lot more potential psychological issues with this.

[justajane]

I'm glad you started this thread. I watched it a few weeks ago and thought of mentioning it on here. It was very sad. I have to remind myself that a twenty year old sees a couple grand differently, but I just couldn't shake what a tremendously bad deal it was for the girls. I mean, they are selling their body for a measly $2,000 or so dollars, and the jackwads who distribute the pornography rakes in so much more than that? I found the guy who recruits the girls really disgusting. He knew how exploitative it was, since he talked about how a "long" career in amateur porn was 3-6 months. And for that short amount of time, you unfortunately brand yourself with a Scarlet A for years and years.

I thought the scene with the porn "star" and her boyfriend at the party was telling. It was obvious that everyone at the party knew of her career choice and looked down on her for it. Those videos will follow her into motherhood and beyond. I'm not saying it's right, but in many respects you also rule out any work with children in the future. And think of when your kids' friends find this stuff. You just can't escape. Everyone in your life will know.

John Oliver just had a great segment about how awful the internet is for women in general. He touched on the heinous practice of revenge porn, but I think porn in general is awful for women. Yeah, these women are willing participants, but that doesn't change the fact that it is preys on young and vulnerable women. I will say, though, that most of these girls didn't appear to come from poor backgrounds. They just wanted a different life from the one they had at home.

I was extremely disturbed by the types of porn Rashida Jones highlighted in the documentary. I'll spare you the details, but men who watch these types of violent porn are disturbed fucks.

[expectopatronum]

In those industries you also have a whole lot of people who want to make it big, and only a few who do hit the top. The people who don't make it big don't make any money, but the people who do make it rake in a ton. There is definitely a ton of "casting couch" type stuff in music, TV, and film, and a lot of pressure on young people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. And there are unrealistic expectations and false glamour heaped on the industry. People get star struck and fame hungry. I guess it sounds very similar to me.

I can see your analogy, and on the surface, it has its similarities. But, I think part of the difference is, these girls can immediately get into the industry, immediately start raking in big dough, and aren't as realistic about what it is really going to take to continue on the path. If you make $5000 in a few weeks, you may start thinking: holy crap, I could pull in $90K this year, especially after I get more famous!

I'm totally aware I have no hope of a singing career, but that's also because I can't get a recording contract and have never had anyone "like" my YouTube or "follow" my Twitter. No one pays me for my singing (trust me). With teen porn, though, you get that feedback immediately and it's easy to think it'll continue or believe that you're the exception. You don't even have to be, um, GOOD at it to start out; you just have to participate in the act. And it can have much further reaching consequences than a failed singing career, physically, socially, and emotionally.

I thought the scene with the porn "star" and her boyfriend at the party was telling. It was obvious that everyone at the party knew of her career choice and looked down on her for it. Those videos will follow her into motherhood and beyond. I'm not saying it's right, but in many respects you also rule out any work with children in the future. And think of when your kids' friends find this stuff. You just can't escape. Everyone in your life will know.

If anything, that scene (to me) also highlighted how she hadn't really thought through the consequences - what if my friends and family find out? What if strangers recognize me? Am I OK with it? Am I comfortable working as a porn actress, or is it something i want to hide, and is that realistic? For example, I don't know that the most famous porn stars have any reservation about people seeing their videos/their fame; that's part of the deal. But that girl did not seem comfortable even with the discussion (although they were being jerks to her).

[forummm]

I guess it sounds very similar to me.

The end result (broke with very little prospects) may look similar, but I think there are a lot more potential psychological issues with this.

Yeah, not saying at all the experience is totally the same. Just noting certain similarities. Obviously there are significant differences.

In those industries you also have a whole lot of people who want to make it big, and only a few who do hit the top. The people who don't make it big don't make any money, but the people who do make it rake in a ton. There is definitely a ton of "casting couch" type stuff in music, TV, and film, and a lot of pressure on young people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. And there are unrealistic expectations and false glamour heaped on the industry. People get star struck and fame hungry. I guess it sounds very similar to me.

I can see your analogy, and on the surface, it has its similarities. But, I think part of the difference is, these girls can immediately get into the industry, immediately start raking in big dough, and aren't as realistic about what it is really going to take to continue on the path. If you make $5000 in a few weeks, you may start thinking: holy crap, I could pull in $90K this year, especially after I get more famous!

I'm totally aware I have no hope of a singing career, but that's also because I can't get a recording contract and have never had anyone "like" my YouTube or "follow" my Twitter. No one pays me for my singing (trust me). With teen porn, though, you get that feedback immediately and it's easy to think it'll continue or believe that you're the exception. You don't even have to be, um, GOOD at it to start out; you just have to participate in the act. And it can have much further reaching consequences than a failed singing career, physically, socially, and emotionally.

I thought the scene with the porn "star" and her boyfriend at the party was telling. It was obvious that everyone at the party knew of her career choice and looked down on her for it. Those videos will follow her into motherhood and beyond. I'm not saying it's right, but in many respects you also rule out any work with children in the future. And think of when your kids' friends find this stuff. You just can't escape. Everyone in your life will know.

If anything, that scene (to me) also highlighted how she hadn't really thought through the consequences - what if my friends and family find out? What if strangers recognize me? Am I OK with it? Am I comfortable working as a porn actress, or is it something i want to hide, and is that realistic? For example, I don't know that the most famous porn stars have any reservation about people seeing their videos/their fame; that's part of the deal. But that girl did not seem comfortable even with the discussion (although they were being jerks to her).

Yeah, I think it's easier to break into porn at a level where you can pay your bills. But you won't last too long in the business. And there is social stigma to it. As well as health concerns. And eventually your kids will find your videos.

[arebelspy]

Those videos will follow her into motherhood and beyond. I'm not saying it's right, but in many respects you also rule out any work with children in the future. And think of when your kids' friends find this stuff. You just can't escape. Everyone in your life will know.

Although I haven't seen the documentary, I don't think this part is as dire as you make it out to be.  If they don't use their real name, it'll likely fade to oblivion.  Yes, some random coworker may eventually find it, but it's unlikely.  With how much is produced, constantly, will their few videos made 20 years before be found by someone?  Will they even exist anymore?

It's possible, but I don't think the kid's friends will ever find it, short of something malicious, for the most part.  There's just too much out there for every one of theirs to be "special" and be that easily found, if they're using a fake name.

[arebelspy]

And eventually your kids will find your videos.

Similar to my above post: do you think if your mom had been in porn 30 years ago (say, the mid-80s), you'd have "found it" somehow? 

I'm skeptical.  And with the volume that's coming out nowadays due to the internet (and not even being made into physical items like DVDs, but just uploaded somewhere, which constantly needs new content), I think it's even less likely.

[AZDude]

30 years ago is different. Any porn was on VHS or older mediums that do not even exist today. Once something lands on the internet, it never goes away. Maybe 15 years later your appearance will be different enough that no one notices, but there are stories of former porn actresses being denied jobs because of the videos floating around.

[arebelspy]

30 years ago is different. Any porn was on VHS or older mediums that do not even exist today. Once something lands on the internet, it never goes away.

I draw the opposite conclusion--a physical medium was much likelier to be found by someone, and a lot less were made, so it was more likely to be found.

Maybe 15 years later your appearance will be different enough that no one notices, but there are stories of former porn actresses being denied jobs because of the videos floating around.

Yeah, but that's so rare.  You think that will happen to all of those women?

Do you think people often watch porn that is 15 years old?  Or new content?

Yes, things on the internet never go away, but that's due to the ability to search for it.  For example, if you are mentioned in an article, that article will stick around, and people can "Google" you.  If you use a different name, and nothing is in text form, but videos, it's pretty hard to find in the vast sea of the internet.

Unless you think face recognition technology + porn search engines will combine such that you can upload a random coworkers face 20 years from now and it will scan 20 year old porn clips and output them for you, I think it's exceedingly unlikely someone's porn career will follow them, be found by their kids, etc.

Example: The Internet (and porn on it) has been around 20+ years.  If I told you "a girl in my high school was in porn on the Internet circa 1997, here is a photo and her real name, but she used a fake name at the time--everything lasts forever on the internet, I'll give you $1MM to find it" how would you even go about looking for something like that?

(This is all with the caveat that they use a fake name--if they use their real name, and it's distinct, that likely will happen).

Anyways, we're getting sidetracked on a fairly minor point overall.  The current exploitation and ongoing psychological issues worry me a lot more than it being discovered for every one of them in 20 years.

[AZDude]

Unless you think face recognition technology + porn search engines will combine such that you can upload a random coworkers face 20 years from now and it will scan 20 year old porn clips and output them for you, I think it's exceedingly unlikely someone's porn career will follow them, be found by their kids, etc.

You can do this now with images.

[arebelspy]

Unless you think face recognition technology + porn search engines will combine such that you can upload a random coworkers face 20 years from now and it will scan 20 year old porn clips and output them for you, I think it's exceedingly unlikely someone's porn career will follow them, be found by their kids, etc.

You can do this now with images.

It's pretty poor technology, but yes, if it's an exact image, you can find matching images.  You can't find matching videos.

But you think there will be searches that search video clips from 20 years before that were on randomxyzpornsite.com ?  I just don't buy it.  And I don't know who would be looking for that.  Prospective employers are going to take photos of someone, reverse age it, and run it against a porn search from decades before?

(I added an edit with an example in the above post while you were posting--do you think you could win that 1MM prize?  How?)

[forummm]

And eventually your kids will find your videos.

Similar to my above post: do you think if your mom had been in porn 30 years ago (say, the mid-80s), you'd have "found it" somehow? 

I'm skeptical.  And with the volume that's coming out nowadays due to the internet (and not even being made into physical items like DVDs, but just uploaded somewhere, which constantly needs new content), I think it's even less likely.

Storage space is cheap and AI is getting better. Eventually all videos and images will be in a big database and will be easily searched via image search. And you can just look for pictures of someone using another photo of them. I think there's some change that your friends or family will know about it and let the word slip at some point. Or you'll save a copy of it or some records that have your stage name on it. Or some porn star wiki will have people's real names on it that come up with googling. Etc, etc. It's a risk. Hard to say how much. But privacy is getting more and more tenuous. Even our health insurers are getting hacked and our personal data is out there now.

[justajane]

arebelspy - For the sake of these women, I hope you are right that these videos won't follow them the rest of their lives.

But it only takes a couple dozen indiscreet people right now to know your porn name and remember for a few years to unleash that information. And it might just be innuendo and not actual viewing of the video 15 years from now. As in, "I heard junior's mom used to be a porn star." One kid says that at school (because they heard it from indiscreet and malicious person above) and it will be hard to stop a rumor like that.

Facial recognition software is somewhat terrifying.

[arebelspy]

arebelspy - For the sake of these women, I hope you are right that these videos won't follow them the rest of their lives.

But it only takes a couple dozen indiscreet people right now to know your porn name and remember for a few years to unleash that information. And it might just be innuendo and not actual viewing of the video 15 years from now. As in, "I heard junior's mom used to be a porn star." One kid says that at school (because they heard it from indiscreet and malicious person above) and it will be hard to stop a rumor like that.

Facial recognition software is somewhat terrifying.

Agreed.

It'd be nice if our society was less prudish too.  I wouldn't care if someone I knew did porn before.  But obviously not everyone thinks like that.

[expectopatronum]

I agree with both of you.

I think the chances of finding your 4-month porn career's videos in 15 years are relatively tiny unless you start off with people knowing that's what you do. But even so, there's truth to it never going away, in a way. Maybe an ex sees your video. Maybe you actually DO become famous. Maybe someone on campus recognizes you and you get in the national news over it before you've even applied to a single law school (cough)...But, most people have such short term memories they wouldn't necessarily recognize you from a film in real life unless they were a "fan". There's assumed risk, and I think you have to weigh it personally. The mistake is not considering the risk at all. It could be you just don't care, a la Kardashian. Or, it could be devastating. I'm not convinced the girls in the film were prepared to accept fame if it came, nor prepared to find work after their career ended if it didn't.

It is, though, interesting to consider that the film doesn't cover other sex workers - strippers, prostitutes, phone services...fields in which there's much less lasting evidence because it's not recorded for mass distribution.

[MoneyCat]

I think what we're forgetting here is that these girls come from small towns and when they return to their small towns (which is pretty much what happens in the film), everyone is going to know what they did.  This is going to follow them.  They will always be the "girl who was paid to have sex with people on camera."  People aren't going to forget this.  I suppose they could move far away and hope that no one recognizes them, but then they would have to lose all their family and friend supports.  That's a really tough thing to ask a person to do.


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[music lover]

It's interesting that when the subject of porn comes up that no one ever seems to think that men might be exploited in some cases, too.

[MoneyCat]

It's interesting that no one ever seems to think that the men might be exploited in some cases, too.

Well, in the film, all the producers, photographers, talent agents, recruiters, etc. are men and they double as the "male talent".  Everyone in positions of power in that industry appear to be men.


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[justajane]

It's interesting that no one ever seems to think that the men might be exploited in some cases, too.

Well, in the film, all the producers, photographers, talent agents, recruiters, etc. are men and they double as the "male talent".  Everyone in positions of power in that industry appear to be men.


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Yes, this. It's not that men are never exploited in the porn industry, but the nature of the power dynamic is pretty straightforward.

[kendallf]

It'd be nice if our society was less prudish too.  I wouldn't care if someone I knew did porn before.  But obviously not everyone thinks like that.

Most of the negative consequences people are worrying about here are due to this.  I would love to see a society where there were no negative connotations to honest sex work.  Maybe it comes of reading Heinlein and Sturgeon as a teenager.

[MoneyCat]

It'd be nice if our society was less prudish too.  I wouldn't care if someone I knew did porn before.  But obviously not everyone thinks like that.

Most of the negative consequences people are worrying about here are due to this.  I would love to see a society where there were no negative connotations to honest sex work.  Maybe it comes of reading Heinlein and Sturgeon as a teenager.

Well, judging from the amount of disease associated with "sex work", people are probably justified at thinking it's not the best occupation and probably not something to be admired.


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[arebelspy]

It'd be nice if our society was less prudish too.  I wouldn't care if someone I knew did porn before.  But obviously not everyone thinks like that.

Most of the negative consequences people are worrying about here are due to this.  I would love to see a society where there were no negative connotations to honest sex work.  Maybe it comes of reading Heinlein and Sturgeon as a teenager.

Well, judging from the amount of disease associated with "sex work", people are probably justified at thinking it's not the best occupation and probably not something to be admired.

If we were less prudish, it could be done openly, and thus a lot more cleanly and safely.

[MoneyCat]

It'd be nice if our society was less prudish too.  I wouldn't care if someone I knew did porn before.  But obviously not everyone thinks like that.

Most of the negative consequences people are worrying about here are due to this.  I would love to see a society where there were no negative connotations to honest sex work.  Maybe it comes of reading Heinlein and Sturgeon as a teenager.

Well, judging from the amount of disease associated with "sex work", people are probably justified at thinking it's not the best occupation and probably not something to be admired.

If we were less prudish, it could be done openly, and thus a lot more cleanly and safely.

Well, places with legal prostitution -- like Nevada -- require regular STD testing for "sex workers", but there is no way to force customers to test themselves.  So, they end up with workers who may or may not actually be clean because who knows where the customers have been?  Plus, some STDs, such as herpes and HPV, aren't prevented using condoms, so there's really no way to protect people from them.  According to some interviews I've read for former "sex workers", nearly 100% of porn stars have herpes.  HPV can't even be tested in males, so that creates a really problematic health issue for the women (although there is a vaccine that young people can take to reduce their chances of contracting some types of HPV.)    In addition to all this, you have the health issues that come from numerous sexual encounters, such as the labia cyst one of the girls in the documentary gets.  The human body wasn't designed to have sex with that many sexual partners.  The body breaks down under those kinds of pressures.

It's not really a situation where "prudes" are the biggest problem.  There are usually reasons -- often very good reasons -- why heavy sexual activity is traditionally discouraged.


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[forummm]

It'd be nice if our society was less prudish too.  I wouldn't care if someone I knew did porn before.  But obviously not everyone thinks like that.

Most of the negative consequences people are worrying about here are due to this.  I would love to see a society where there were no negative connotations to honest sex work.  Maybe it comes of reading Heinlein and Sturgeon as a teenager.

Well, judging from the amount of disease associated with "sex work", people are probably justified at thinking it's not the best occupation and probably not something to be admired.


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The porn industry in the US is actually remarkably disease free. Actors are required to have a recent (within the past couple weeks) clean set of tests on file before they can participate in a scene. It's actually "news" when there is any disease transmission on set. The actors who do test positive (and then are prohibited from filming) pick up the diseases off-set. So this actually 1) lets people know ASAP that they picked up something and 2) stops transmission so an outbreak can't happen.

It's another reason why I think legalizing prostitution would be better for everyone.

[forummm]

Plus, some STDs, such as herpes and HPV, aren't prevented using condoms, so there's really no way to protect people from them.  According to some interviews I've read for former "sex workers", nearly 100% of porn stars have herpes.  HPV can't even be tested in males, so that creates a really problematic health issue for the women (although there is a vaccine that young people can take to reduce their chances of contracting some types of HPV.)    In addition to all this, you have the health issues that come from numerous sexual encounters, such as the labia cyst one of the girls in the documentary gets.  The human body wasn't designed to have sex with that many sexual partners.  The body breaks down under those kinds of pressures.

It's not really a situation where "prudes" are the biggest problem.  There are usually reasons -- often very good reasons -- why heavy sexual activity is traditionally discouraged.

As far as we know, HPV is generally harmless except for the strains that cause cancers. And there is a vaccine recommended for both boys and girls that prevents infections from those strains (there may be a couple strains that very rarely cause cancers that are not prevented by the vaccine, but the vaccine prevents most of the cancers). And it's free with most insurance plans.

IMO, the main reasons why sexual activity is frowned upon by society is our puritanical heritage and the fact that historically it led to lots of pregnancy.

But it is also true that the human body wasn't designed to have several hours of sex every day with extreme forms of activity (insufficient lubrication, objects too large, etc). That is a health concern.

[tele25]

It's interesting that no one ever seems to think that the men might be exploited in some cases, too.

Well, in the film, all the producers, photographers, talent agents, recruiters, etc. are men and they double as the "male talent".  Everyone in positions of power in that industry appear to be men.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, this. It's not that men are never exploited in the porn industry, but the nature of the power dynamic is pretty straightforward.

Have you considered that its the male customers of porn that are getting exploited.

After all, engaging in real sex is better than watching someone else do it on screen.

[marty998]

It's interesting that no one ever seems to think that the men might be exploited in some cases, too.

Well, in the film, all the producers, photographers, talent agents, recruiters, etc. are men and they double as the "male talent".  Everyone in positions of power in that industry appear to be men.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, this. It's not that men are never exploited in the porn industry, but the nature of the power dynamic is pretty straightforward.

Have you considered that its the male customers of porn that are getting exploited.

After all, engaging in real sex is better than watching someone else do it on screen.

You could make that 'exploitation' argument about any consumer of any product tele25.

To be perfectly frank I think your point is moot in comparison to the exploitation of women in the porn industry.

[tele25]

It's interesting that no one ever seems to think that the men might be exploited in some cases, too.

Well, in the film, all the producers, photographers, talent agents, recruiters, etc. are men and they double as the "male talent".  Everyone in positions of power in that industry appear to be men.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, this. It's not that men are never exploited in the porn industry, but the nature of the power dynamic is pretty straightforward.

Have you considered that its the male customers of porn that are getting exploited.

After all, engaging in real sex is better than watching someone else do it on screen.

You could make that 'exploitation' argument about any consumer of any product tele25.

To be perfectly frank I think your point is moot in comparison to the exploitation of women in the porn industry.

You are being sexist twice.

Firstly, you seem to think that men don't want the emotional conection that comes from sex, try getting that from a consumer product. When was the last time your 60" plasma telly wanted to snuggle after you watched it?

Secondly, you seem to think that the expliotation of a smaller number of female performers (most of whom will have psychological issues) negates the vastly larger number of men simply because the men as individuals are exploited less.

[CommonCents]

tele25, why do you feel someone is being exploited when they have 100% freedom to choose to engage or not engage in an activity (watching porn)?  Generally we use the term exploited to refer to people who have no real practical options (e.g. poverty and lack of options forces one to work in a sweatshop).

I find it very interesting that you posted for the first time just yesterday, but have established a habit of posting very provocative statements in different thread (e.g. claiming parents are uncaring for putting kids in daycare).

[arebelspy]

MOD NOTE: Troll has been dealt with.

[Megma]

Interesting...this movie sounds depressing. I watched a This is Life episode on CNN a while ago about so called sugar babies, seems much more profitable to be a professional girlfriend. And I still found that to be a little sad, they were at least getting all their bills paid in a tax free manner (gifts, which maybe are taxable after an amount? I doubt they're paying). One girl said she had saved like 200k from it and several were paying for college.

There was a movie about the life of Linda Lovelace (called Lovelace) on Netflix a while back and it traumatized me. She was in porn for 17 days and it ruined her life for years. I think Arebelspy is probably right in saying now it's less likely anyone will find it "accidentally" now because of the sheer volume produced.

[Roland of Gilead]

I guess everyone gets exploited at some point or another.   The 18 y.o. who falls for the "be all you can be" commercials then gets both legs blown off by an IED, the 22 y.o. who graduated with a degree in Egyptology and $100,000 in student loan debt.

We are talking about adults, making free choices.   Our society always wants to place the blame somewhere other than the person making the choice.

[carloco]

That's really sad.

One girl earned $25,000 in four months, but ended up with only $2000 in her bank account when she finished due to all the costs associated with the job, which are not covered by their employers.

Even if she had kept it all, an annual wage of 75k is not that good for what you're doing.

The pornography industry preys on poor, uneducated women who see it as a glamorous escape from poverty and unskilled minimum wage work.  The girls in the documentary comment on how they feel like they are being treated as "princesses" by the pornographers while they are in demand, but once they "age out" or become "yesterday's news", the industry spits them out with no future and often with some pretty serious physical and emotional problems.

your position is pretty similar to  that of sport teams....

[libertarian4321]

I guess everyone gets exploited at some point or another.   The 18 y.o. who falls for the "be all you can be" commercials then gets both legs blown off by an IED, the 22 y.o. who graduated with a degree in Egyptology and $100,000 in student loan debt.

We are talking about adults, making free choices.   Our society always wants to place the blame somewhere other than the person making the choice.

Yup.

I love how some of these folks get their knickers in a bunch screaming "EXPLOITATION!" about a woman being paid $1,000 to have sex for a couple of hours, but would not have a problem with that same woman working 100+ hours scrubbing toilets for the same money.

Most of this has nothing to do with concerns of "expoitation," most of comes from extremist social conservatives who just don't like porn because Jesus doesn't approve (or whatever).  Either that, or the extremist "feminists" who, while claiming to stand for freedom and opportunity for women, tend to be a bunch of judgmental shrews who feel obligated to tell women what they can and can not do.

Hey, extremist conservatives and extremist "feminists," how about we let the ADULT WOMEN make their own choice?  Just because you may not choose 2 hours of shooting porn over 100 hours of scrubbing toilets for $1k, or perhaps are not attractive enough to even have porn as an option,  does not mean every woman would make the same choice you would.

FWIW, given a choice of sex on cam for 2 hours versus 100 hours of scrubbing toilets, I'd go with the sex.

Full discosure:  I did not see the documentary.  That said, consider for a moment that perhaps extreme "feminist" Rashida Jones ain't particularly objective in this endeavor and her "documentary" might be less an accurate depiction of the truth than a piece of political propaganda.  Just something to consider...

[forummm]

I think the issue is complicated. I don't know what the average annual income is for women in porn. The rate they can get per scene is in the ballpark of $1k, but varies based on star power and content. I've heard ranges of high hundreds to over $10k. In the legal brothels in Nevada, women can make 6-figures without any education or even being all that attractive. I've heard numbers like >$200k.

I think any job can give you emotional scars. Cleaning toilets, bad bosses, stressful projects, failed sales, etc. People should find what works for them.

[Roland of Gilead]

Anyways, we're getting sidetracked on a fairly minor point overall.  The current exploitation and ongoing psychological issues worry me a lot more than it being discovered for every one of them in 20 years.

I don't know how you got that as my opinion on the topic.  I do worry about the effects on them (and think there should be more education/they should know what they're getting into), but I 100% support legal prostitution, pornography, etc.  As I said there, I  think our society as a whole should be less prudish. You seem to be reading what you want into it (and/or just making things up completely).

I'm 100% sure I never used the word exploitation, so you are literally putting words in my mouth.
If you have a response to this, please feel free to quote this post and reply over in that thread, rather than take this one off topic.

I am just pulling your chain a bit...it is pretty clear you are not a pornography prude.

[arebelspy]

You are correct, my bad.  :)

I do support women choosing to be in pornographic films, or becoming sex workers.  I do think information such as that contained in this film should be required education so they know what they're getting into.  When things become legal and on the up-and-up, as well as societal acceptable (i.e. we can talk about it openly) it's much easier to discuss potential ramifications and make sure someone is a willing participant, rather than being exploited.