Moral Dilemma - walk away from $18,000?

[nz]

 I recently resigned from my long time teaching position in order to pursue an early retirement/ mmm lifestyle.

I found out that I had built up 120 sick days over the years which equates to 17 weeks work or $18,000. Part of me was very tempted to create some condition like 'stress leave' or 'a sore back'  which would have enabled me to tap into those funds.

Many of my colleagues encouraged me to 'get sick' and offered practical advice as to what symptoms to exhibit/what doctors to approach etc.

Whilst I did entertain the idea for a short time  it just didn't seem right to fake an illness. So bye bye $18k.

Was this the right decision???  MMM community opinions appreciated.

[secondcor521]

I think so.

Look at it this way...you're 48, and you'll probably live another 30 years or so.  That $18K divides out over 30 years to less than $2 per day.

For me, it's worth $2 per day to be able to look myself in the mirror and sleep well at night.

2Cor521

[Nords]

Many of my colleagues encouraged me to 'get sick' and offered practical advice as to what symptoms to exhibit/what doctors to approach etc.
Whilst I did entertain the idea for a short time  it just didn't seem right to fake an illness. So bye bye $18k.
Was this the right decision???  MMM community opinions appreciated.

Do a thought experiment-- pretend that it's 2018, you've enjoyed five years of retirement, and you're looking back on this $18K "opportunity".

How do you feel about your decision from the hypothetical perspective of five years?

You took the high road.

[FiveSigmas]

Yeah, I like SecondCor and Nord's lines of thought. Based on previous articles, your decision sounds very mustachian as well:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/21/i-just-gave-up-4000-per-month-to-keep-my-freedom-of-speech/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/11/get-rich-with-good-old-fashioned-honesty/

(not to mention the comments section of http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/07/14/guest-post-breaking-free-from-the-corporate-grind-just-got-easier/).

BTW: Congratulations on early retirement!

[arebelspy]

Congrats on your new ER, and kudos on making the harder choice.

Despite how some here might portray it, it really is a decision that might not be so obvious (especially if framed in a "well.. You could take just a few weeks of it.."), but (IMO) you made the right choice.

[Self-employed-swami]

If you'd reached pension-retirement age, would you have been paid out for those days?  Some jobs here are like that, and some aren't.

Either way, congratulations on your retirement!

[Khao]

I don't get how you can build up to 120 sick days. I think the law where I am will let you carry over sick days to the next year and after that the employers pays your unused sick days when you've accumulated more than 2 years worth of sick days (by two years I mean if you have 10 sick days per year that means over 20). It prevents abuse like in your case.

To answer your question, would you be ok accepting 18k and donating most of it instead? That's free money for charities.

[Posthumane]

Khao, not all regions have those kinds of laws regarding sick days. There aren't any in Alberta that I'm aware of, and even the in the federal gov't you can carry over leave days indefinitely. This has created issues in the past with people taking a "sick year" just prior to their retirement. But then, people don't get paid out for their unused sick days.

[Bakari]

To answer your question, would you be ok accepting 18k and donating most of it instead? That's free money for charities.

OP said (s)he was a teacher.  Leaving the 18k in an educational institution is already like giving to a charity, without the legal or ethical risk

[MrSaturday]

If you'd reached pension-retirement age, would you have been paid out for those days?  Some jobs here are like that, and some aren't.

I just did some napkin math and realized I'll have 120 sick days in 5.5 years barring any serious illness or injury.  I don't think there are any laws around here covering sick time in a corporate environment.  For all I know they could change company policy and make most of my banked time disappear any time they like.

One of my coworkers just "retired" by hanging onto his job while using up all his sick time and short/long-term disability.  He was out about 10 months total before it ran dry and he had to officially retire.  I can tell you we didn't enjoy covering for him the whole time since his position couldn't be filled as long as there was a possibility he'd return.

[dragoncar]

I wouldn't fake an illness either.  I don't know about the system where you are, but around here a lot of employers don't give "sick days" per se.  They give "flex days" which you can take either as vacation or as sick days.  Just another way to screw over employees.  In that case, however, I'd for sure take the rest of those days.

[Russ]

My mother works in a public school and had a colleague use all his sick days, several days or a week at a time, the year before retirement. The high turnover of substitutes was a huge disservice to his students. It made all the other teachers' jobs harder as well. I don't think anyone particularly loved or hated him before he started taking sick days, but general consensus by the time he left was that he was a dick.

Sounds like you did the right thing.

[kudy]

I am happy that my personal/sick/vacation time all gets tossed into the same pot of available paid time off. I will make sure to use my time before I leave, and will feel fine about it because it isn't reserved for being "sick"

[Phoebe]

I think you did the right thing.  $18K would not cover the stress I'd feel if I had to fake symptoms and get doctors involved.

[dragoncar]

I think you did the right thing.  $18K would not cover the stress I'd feel if I had to fake symptoms and get doctors involved.

Stress over faking symptoms = real symptoms of high blood pressure = win?

I am happy that my personal/sick/vacation time all gets tossed into the same pot of available paid time off. I will make sure to use my time before I leave, and will feel fine about it because it isn't reserved for being "sick"

Yeah it's all fun and games until you actually get sick and therefore have no vacation.

[Phoebe]

Quote from: Phoebe on Today at 02:47:16 PM
I think you did the right thing.  $18K would not cover the stress I'd feel if I had to fake symptoms and get doctors involved.

Stress over faking symptoms = real symptoms of high blood pressure = win?

LOL!

[LadyM]

My husband is a teacher in a public school system, and here they have a sick time "bank" that you can donate to, in case a fellow teacher or a member of their family becomes sick or injured to the point that they need extended leave.  Teachers donate leave, and those that need it can use it in cases where it's needed.

I don't know if you're completely gone yet, or on your way out, but if you have a leave bank in your school system, perhaps you can donate your leave to the leave bank!  Or if one doesn't exist, perhaps you can use your immense cache of sick time to establish a leave bank at your school.

[nz]

ladymaier - we don't have a leave bank here, it's strictly  'use it or lose it!'    Sick leave is not transferable in any shape or     
            form.

                Sounds like your husband works for a very enlightened public school system

[Freeyourchains]

Negotiate with them and get your pay!

It's written in your contracts they owe you 170 sick days. My employer makes us take vacation days as our sick days first, then unpaid days when we are sick.

Do it for all the men in my predicament, For all the men working hard for MMM and FI freedom! Take your days off and get your money and your life back!

If i knew i was only 6 months away from FI/retirement with 170 days of sick leave, i would get a doctor to say i need to go down to the Caribbean for 6 months to rest up on all that stress that is unhealthy to my heart cause by working for someone else.

[Self-employed-swami]

And that is the exact attitude that makes a lot of people angry.

Benefits are there if you need them, not for you to use just because you feel entitled to it.

[CALL 911]

I don't know what I'd do in this situation, but the OP "feel(s) entitled to it" because they ARE entitled to it (assuming NZ works like the US). They signed a contract (likely one every year) that outlined expectations of both parties. Likely, somewhere in there it said you get 10 sick days a year, and they carry over. Every time they didn't call in sick, the school didn't have to hire a sub, the kids had a teacher (not a sitter) and the OP had another day of sick leave stored. Everybody wins, until the OP doesn't use the sick time, then the school/students won - not the OP. If they had a formal system where the unused sick time was purchased by the school at retirement, would they be "entitled" to that, or are they compelled to donate that money back to the school? What if instead the contract said every time you call in $100 is docked from your pay to give the sub. If they never called in, should they pay $17000, since they never called in for those 170 days? What's the difference?
However I do agree that a sense of entitlement is destroying our nation. I become angry about this issue often. Modern civilization is based on free exchange of ideas and trade (meaning I'm free to tell you/sell you my ideas/goods - but I'm not compelled to). We (US, Western Europe, Pacific) were all founded on trading value for value. People demanding (and receiving) things without a value exchange is unacceptable, but is a growing issue. I don't see it in this instance though.

[Self-employed-swami]

Sick time is there, in case you have to take time off for being sick.  It isn't a bonus, or something you are entitled to, if you don't actually need it.

Just because it is in a job contract, doesn't mean you should commit fraud, by having a doctor sign a FAKE sick note.

[Erica/NWEdible]

I think it's simply a question of it's part of your earned compensation like PTO hours. If so, you should be compensated for those hours upon departure, just like any other PTO hours. If not...well then congratulations for being so healthy that you didn't need to use those days!

[Self-employed-swami]

Oh I agree, if it is written in the contract, that sick time should be paid out, then by all means, take the payout, but that isn't always the case.

[nz]

 CALL 911 - I didn't feel 'entitled' to the sick pay, more a case of being 'tempted' by it.

[happy]

Congratulations on retiring!
Its a lot of leave, but I think you did the right thing. I wouldn't be able to fake something like that.

I do have about the same amount of sick leave as you did.... I view it as a sort of  insurance...if I really get something big wrong with me, then no need to worry for 4 or 5 months. Mind you if I am sick with the flu I do take a day off if I can....I don't need the amount to continue to increase endlessly.

[CALL 911]

NZ, Congratulations on retirement! I don't know exactly what your contracts said, and I may not have been entirely clear in my prior post. If the sick day system is set up that days carry over, but "banked" days have no value at retirement, then being "sick" for 5 months when you aren't is fraudulent, and I wouldn't do it.
If there is a compensation system for converting unused days to cash, I would do it.
I wasn't trying to accuse you of an entitlement mindset. If you both mutually agreed to something regarding sick days, you earned it. I view a huge difference between being entitled to something, and earning something. If you work an hourly job, and are asked to stay late, you earned overtime pay. If you wait tables and have a tip pool, but spent the entire shift on the phone with you brother, you are not entitled to a fair share of the tips - no matter what the company policy is. One is worked for, and involves a good faith agreement. The other isn't. Again, Congratulations!

[lizzigee]

As a fellow kiwi, congrats on being ethical enough not to fake it. Be glad that you have been in good enough health not to need to use those days and enjoy your retirement with a clear conscience.

[LizzyBee]

As a fellow teacher, I can say you absolutely did the right thing. It's not just about faking an illness, it's about your students receiving a quality education. In my district, when people were "non-renewed", which is a nice way of saying they were fired from the district but allowed to finish out the year with their students, they would use up their sick days by taking one or two sick days every week. Their students suffered from the inconsistency and their quality of education suffered. It was just a really bad situation and I did not have a lot of respect for the people that did that. Our district suffers from a lack of substitute teachers so it really puts the administration and fellow teachers in a huge bind when teachers call in sick.

[Reepekg]

I agree with many of the posters that faking an illness is not the moral thing to do.

My mother is a teacher and like you had many days built up because it took something serious to keep her from going to work. Her school district paid her for the 100+ days she had accumulated at something like 70% of a normal worked day. I think a system like that is fair.

I also think it would be fair to have a system where you get covered when you are sick, no limits. You could then work through til retirement knowing you were insured in case you were ill, but you were just lucky not to be ill.

Limiting the number of days you can be sick per year, tracking them, but not compensating you in some way for not using them seems like the administration is somewhat having it both ways... and it creates your exact situation. It also creates an incentive to take the occasional sick day and get paid whenever you're feeling slightly ill so you earn more over your career for less hours worked. I personally would consider the unused sick days a donation to the school and then lobby to have the policy changed.

[iris lily]

Public employees and their benefits, amazing.

Here's what the cretains in my city did: the head of Human Resources for the city pushed through a change in personnel policy just before he retired. Up until the time he retired employees "lost" any built up sick leave they had. He got the Aldermen to change policy so that they got paid fully for all accumulated sick leave days.
Guess who had 1,000 days of sick leave? yep. He retired and got fully paid.

Thanks OP for not committing fraud.

[ep114]

yes, you made the right choice.

to be more comfortable with your choice, maybe you could think of it as 'walking away from the chance to lie to get $18,000" instead of "walking away from $18,000."

[SnackDog]

You are not entitled to sick days unless you are sick.  If you pretend to be sick in order to make a claim you are dishonest and likely to need all the money you can get, so go for it.

[MrsPete]

Sick leave's a tricky thing.  On the one hand, it's an earned benefit (meaning the employee "builds it up" over the course of time).  On the other hand, no one should lie about being sick . . . but just how sick is sick?  Is a headache enough reason to stay home?  Whether you can "cash it out" or whether it rolls over all depends upon your company's policies, and I'd assume that when you accepted the job you were made aware of the benefits policies and agreed to them.   

Speaking for myself, and I'm also a teacher, here's where I stand:

- I have over 200 sick days (a full year) built up; I just reached that milestone in the last months.  Obviously, I am a go-to-work-every-day person. 
- In the past I have come to school when I was actually sick.  If I wasn't throwing up, I came to school.  Now that I have my full year, I'm going to stay home when I'm even just-a-little sick. 
- My school district does not allow a cash pay-out for sick days; however, if I have a full year's sick leave when I retire, I can use those sick days to "retire a year early".  This means I could get a 20-year pension after 19-years of service, or a 25-year pension after 24-years of service.
- My district allows us to "gift" sick days to someone else, so if I were leaving and didn't have enough days to benefit myself, I would definitely gift them to a friend. 
- Teachers are allowed to take a sick day for a doctor's appointment.  I have no problem with the oh-so-common trick of "saving up" necessary appointments (eye doctor, dentist, OB/GYN) 'til you want to go out of town . . . then scheduling the appointment for a Friday morning, which then gives you the rest of the day free. 
 

[Zamboni]

You did the right thing.  Congratulations on your retirement!

They give "flex days" which you can take either as vacation or as sick days.  Just another way to screw over employees. 

How is this a bad thing?  Is it not on top of regular vacation days?  As I am rarely sick and thus almost never take sick days (less than 1 day per year I think) I would love to have flex days to go to the park guilt free!

Oh wait, maybe you are talking about shut down periods (like over the holidays) during which time employees MUST use their sick or vacation time because they are not allowed to work?  Because that policy really does suck.  I worked one place like that briefly;

after

I had been working there for awhile, they decided that we had to use 3 days out of our 10 days of vacation for days they selected in December when the company was shut down.  Anyone who had already used their days could take it unpaid or could "borrow" vacation from the next year.  Using sick time for those 3 days was not an option (even if you really work sick at that time, I suppose.)  They loved to just change policies on the fly like that all the time, and I am happy to no longer work there.

Like others, I've seen fellow employees milk the "sick days" system by being "sick" one day per week for the entire year. 

[AlmostIndependent]

Maybe you could look at your sick leave policy and find ways to use some of it that are allowed. Our sick leave policy allows us to use it for doctor appointments. I'm planning to use a day to go to the optometrist since I haven't been in ages.