Author Topic: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits  (Read 16969 times)

eljefe-speaks

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Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« on: February 26, 2016, 12:28:59 PM »
IF you earn minimum wage AND the federal government substantially raises that minimum wage, THEN you can EASILY parlay your job into a $50,000/yr career!***

***According to the logic of my co-workers who repeat something akin to the following complainypants line with maddening regularity: "Well, if they're gonna raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour, then I'm just gonna go get a job a McDonalds!" Imagine the millions of higher-earning jobs that will instantly open up all across America!

(Why do so many people take so much offense to the idea of paying more money to those of us most in need? It's as if they're highly offended by the very idea of the wealth gap between the middle and lower class narrowing by just a hair.)

JLee

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 12:40:12 PM »
IF you earn minimum wage AND the federal government substantially raises that minimum wage, THEN you can EASILY parlay your job into a $50,000/yr career!***

***According to the logic of my co-workers who repeat something akin to the following complainypants line with maddening regularity: "Well, if they're gonna raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour, then I'm just gonna go get a job a McDonalds!" Imagine the millions of higher-earning jobs that will instantly open up all across America!

(Why do so many people take so much offense to the idea of paying more money to those of us most in need? It's as if they're highly offended by the very idea of the wealth gap between the middle and lower class narrowing by just a hair.)

Assuming the following:
$15/hr wage
Two-income household
35 hour weeks
Two unpaid weeks off

This creates a couple working less than full time with no benefits (i.e. no paid vacation time) earning $52,500/year. The current median household income is $51,939.  Would you consider this as eliminating the "lower class" income groups, or would the current middle class become lower class? :P

Allen

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 12:49:45 PM »
You are very OK with income inequality as long as you are talking about inequality with those who make / have less than you.

You are very against income inequality as long as you are talking about inequality with those who make / have more than you.

That seems to be the average American view that rally against the .01% while simultaneously opposing a minimum wage increase.  That means they only want to reduce everyone to a low level rather than raise people up to a higher level.  A higher minimum wage does both at the same. (raises the low and lowers the high)

Midwest

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2016, 01:06:50 PM »
if I were making $15 an hour in a physically demanding job (factory work) that offered similar growth potential to the less physically demanding job (fast food) that now pays $15 an hour, I'd probably move to the easier job.

Factory job guy will either pay more or automate at that point.  Fast food might decide to automate more at $15 an hour.  Automation hurts the worker. Increasing factory wages means the fast food worker is back where they started in relation to the market over time.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 01:10:43 PM by Midwest »

mathlete

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2016, 01:18:34 PM »
You are very OK with income inequality as long as you are talking about inequality with those who make / have less than you.

You are very against income inequality as long as you are talking about inequality with those who make / have more than you.

That seems to be the average American view that rally against the .01% while simultaneously opposing a minimum wage increase.  That means they only want to reduce everyone to a low level rather than raise people up to a higher level.  A higher minimum wage does both at the same. (raises the low and lowers the high)

Yep. People think that keeping other people down in the basement will make the first floor feel like the penthouse.

mathlete

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 01:22:11 PM »
if I were making $15 an hour in a physically demanding job (factory work) that offered similar growth potential to the less physically demanding job (fast food) that now pays $15 an hour, I'd probably move to the easier job.

Factory job guy will either pay more or automate at that point.  Fast food might decide to automate more at $15 an hour.  Automation hurts the worker. Increasing factory wages means the fast food worker is back where they started in relation to the market over time.

Automation is coming regardless of wages. Human labor is slow, unpredictable, unreliable, and accident prone. And humans can only work so many hours in a given day. They sexually harass each other and file lawsuits against the employer.

The list of reasons to automate is already so long that the marginal difference between $10 an hour or $11 an hour or $12 an hour means nothing.

This is good because paying humans to do labor that machines can do is backwards.

Schaefer Light

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 01:33:53 PM »
If you want to see the unemployment rate skyrocket, raising the minimum wage to $15/hr would be a good way to start.

Tyson

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2016, 01:34:59 PM »
I can't wait for the conservatives to come into this thread and remind all of us (again and again) that:

1. Raising the minimum wage causes employers to lay off low earning people so they don't go out of business
2. "Those people" didn't EARN that pay increase!
3. Really, there ought to not be a minimum wage at all. 

Here it comes, in 3....2....1

Edit - Schaefer Light beat me to the punch - doh!  :P

Schaefer Light

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2016, 01:44:39 PM »
3. Really, there ought to not be a minimum wage at all. 
I see no reason to have one.

Tyson

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2016, 01:47:29 PM »
Why do you think that?

Midwest

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2016, 01:47:39 PM »
if I were making $15 an hour in a physically demanding job (factory work) that offered similar growth potential to the less physically demanding job (fast food) that now pays $15 an hour, I'd probably move to the easier job.

Factory job guy will either pay more or automate at that point.  Fast food might decide to automate more at $15 an hour.  Automation hurts the worker. Increasing factory wages means the fast food worker is back where they started in relation to the market over time.

Automation is coming regardless of wages. Human labor is slow, unpredictable, unreliable, and accident prone. And humans can only work so many hours in a given day. They sexually harass each other and file lawsuits against the employer.

The list of reasons to automate is already so long that the marginal difference between $10 an hour or $11 an hour or $12 an hour means nothing.

This is good because paying humans to do labor that machines can do is backwards.

A national increase to $15 an hour (from $7.25 currently) will accelerate that automation in low skill jobs. Your not talk about an increase from from $10 to $12, we are discussing a proposed doubling of the minimum wage.

Not sure how that helps those at the bottom or the high school kid looking for his first job.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 01:54:14 PM by Midwest »

Schaefer Light

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2016, 01:55:24 PM »
Why do you think that?
Is there a maximum wage? 

Beridian

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2016, 01:57:47 PM »
Here is an inconvenient truth, technology and productivity gains have made many lower skilled people obsolete, even higher skilled jobs are feeling some pressure.  Worse, the trend line is accelerating.  Yet the population continues to grow.  People fall all over the bell curve of ability, the reality is that there a sizable chunk of the population that for various reasons are never going to be more than low skilled workers.

So....what is to be done? 

Keep them in a permanent underclass?  This leads to crime, swelling prison populations, decay of communities, health care problems, and ultimately civil unrest and even war.  Not good, the price tag for all of these things is very high.

How about just paying them to live and behave themselves?  In other words, a permanent welfare state.  There are more than a few economists and philosophers who think that this might be the best choice.  Of course all the disciples of Ayn Rand and the self-righteous affluent would never stand for such a thing.  Better to pay the poor to dig holes and fill them back in rather than paying them for nothing.

Then there is the rational choice of paying the lower classes a slightly inflated wage for lower skilled work that will allow them to lead half-way decent lives while retaining a degree of self respect.  Yes, they are technically being paid more than they are worth but it addresses the problems mentioned above.   Yes this flies in the face of free markets, but left unchecked the free markets will lead us into the abyss.    With a reasonable minimum wage the Ayn Rand crowd gets their pound of flesh and the poor get to live and feel a little bit better about their place in the world.  Also give a poor man a dollar and he will almost certainly spend it, higher wages stimulate the economy.  Think of a livable minimum wage as a social compromise.

I suppose another alternative is to take them out in the woods and shoot them.   I am certain that there are many people who wish for this option but would dare not speak the words publicly.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 02:02:50 PM by Beridian »

Tyson

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2016, 02:01:50 PM »

Schaefer Light

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2016, 02:05:46 PM »
Why do you think that?
Is there a maximum wage?

No, but there should be.
No, there should not.  The government should not be in the business of determining employees' salaries...either at the top or the bottom.

Now, if you think the government should provide everyone (and I mean everyone...even those at the top) with some sort of "living income" then that's a debate I'm willing to have.

Midwest

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2016, 02:17:47 PM »


How about just paying them to live and behave themselves?  In other words, a permanent welfare state. 

Then there is the rational choice of paying the lower classes a slightly inflated wage for lower skilled work that will allow them to lead half-way decent lives while retaining a degree of self respect.  Yes, they are technically being paid more than they are worth but it addresses the problems mentioned above.   

Think of a livable minimum wage as a social compromise.


I think much of what you speak of is already happening.  Those at the bottom make a wage plus government benefits and the earned income credit in many cases.  If they are a 2 earner household, minimum wage at present is already over $30k a year plus the aforementioned benefits.  Not a huge income, but livable. 

I'm not arguing against minimum wage entirely or a small increase but those arguing for $15 an hour are asking for an unreasonable (in my opinion) increase.

To add MMM luxury lifestyle is $25k a year for 3 people with healthcare.  If you go to the no frills version it's under $17k a year. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/

« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 02:33:11 PM by Midwest »

big_slacker

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2016, 02:29:11 PM »
I think the idea of an across the board arbitrary number isn't very well thought out. Small towns in the south that's good livin, west coast big city it's struggling to get by. Why is this a federal thing at all?

I don't see any problem with trying bring everyone up to a minimum standard of living, or with 'fixing' the somewhat top heavy distribution of wealth even if that includes me making/having a little less. I would just hope we can do a better job of it than this idea. :)

Travis

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2016, 02:32:29 PM »
3. Really, there ought to not be a minimum wage at all. 
I see no reason to have one.

Capitalism leans towards a business doing whatever it can to maximize its bottom line.  In many times throughout our history that has run counter to the creation of an equitable society.  The modern US economy was built on monopolized steal and oil industries.  And while this gave the US economy massive resources, there were few systems in place to check their power.  One of those was exploitation of the labor force.  Without a minimum wage they could depress those wages far below the point we consider the poverty line, and there is still (and will probably always be) enough of an unemployment rate that someone will take that depressed wage over having nothing.  Back then labor was cheap and considered completely expendable.  Low-income families packed themselves in to tiny apartments to afford a roof to live under, didn't go to school, and ate whatever they could get their hands on.  Dead and injured workers were discarded and replacements found without a care.  The system has changed somewhat since then.  Society now considers food, clothing, shelter, and a basic education to be mandatory aspects of existence.  Without a system ensuring the ability to earn a bare minimum, the money necessary for that person/family to live will have to come from somewhere, and rather from the business' bottom line it'll come from the tax base.

mathlete

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2016, 02:50:23 PM »
A national increase to $15 an hour (from $7.25 currently) will accelerate that automation in low skill jobs. Your not talk about an increase from from $10 to $12, we are discussing a proposed doubling of the minimum wage.

Not sure how that helps those at the bottom or the high school kid looking for his first job.

I don't necessarily believe the bolded is true, but even if it is, bring it on. Double or triple wages if that is the case.

Less humans doing menial labor that can be done instead by machines? Yes please.

Gin1984

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2016, 02:56:12 PM »


How about just paying them to live and behave themselves?  In other words, a permanent welfare state. 

Then there is the rational choice of paying the lower classes a slightly inflated wage for lower skilled work that will allow them to lead half-way decent lives while retaining a degree of self respect.  Yes, they are technically being paid more than they are worth but it addresses the problems mentioned above.   

Think of a livable minimum wage as a social compromise.


I think much of what you speak of is already happening.  Those at the bottom make a wage plus government benefits and the earned income credit in many cases.  If they are a 2 earner household, minimum wage at present is already over $30k a year plus the aforementioned benefits.  Not a huge income, but livable. 

I'm not arguing against minimum wage entirely or a small increase but those arguing for $15 an hour are asking for an unreasonable (in my opinion) increase.

To add MMM luxury lifestyle is $25k a year for 3 people with healthcare.  If you go to the no frills version it's under $17k a year. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/
That is without rent/mortgage.  That makes a major difference.  I spend about $39,000 but over $10000 is daycare and another $10,000 plus is rent.  You can't ignore those expenses.

bobechs

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2016, 03:03:21 PM »

I suppose another alternative is to take them out in the woods and shoot them...


That is so Goddamned wasteful...

Soylent Green, ftw.

MoneyCat

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2016, 03:26:34 PM »
We need to remember that people in the United States hated paying people for stuff so much that we used to practice slavery. Americans were literally so greedy and selfish that they forced people to work for no money at all. A lot of that attitude is still present in America today.

socalmillennial

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2016, 03:27:54 PM »
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

Here is what will happen when the minimum wage is raised to $15:

All the workers who make minimum wage will say "cool!". Then, after a few months, the businesses who employ those minimum wage people will realize that in order to stay in business they will need to borrow some capital and invest in machines that, over time, will be much less costly to pay for rather than some human. Hence- minimum wage earners will lose their jobs. Plus machines can't be apart of a union, they don't need to use the bathroom, and they don't ask for $15 an hour to do their job. Then the word "customer-service" will be from a bygone era as machines don't get angry and are always happy to greet customers.

Before anyone gets mad at me for "hating" on minimum wage earners...

I am a minimum wage earner myself. I make $10 (minimum for OC). After the wage goes up, I might lose my job, or the restaurant will increase the food prices and tell customers that they will just no longer have to leave a tip.

Plus the restaurant is already on the fritz... But I can get another job ... no problem.

mathlete

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2016, 03:31:42 PM »
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

Here is what will happen when the minimum wage is raised to $15:

All the workers who make minimum wage will say "cool!". Then, after a few months, the businesses who employ those minimum wage people will realize that in order to stay in business they will need to borrow some capital and invest in machines that, over time, will be much less costly to pay for rather than some human. Hence- minimum wage earners will lose their jobs. Plus machines can't be apart of a union, they don't need to use the bathroom, and they don't ask for $15 an hour to do their job. Then the word "customer-service" will be from a bygone era as machines don't get angry and are always happy to greet customers.

Before anyone gets mad at me for "hating" on minimum wage earners...

I am a minimum wage earner myself. I make $10 (minimum for OC). After the wage goes up, I might lose my job, or the restaurant will increase the food prices and tell customers that they will just no longer have to leave a tip.

Plus the restaurant is already on the fritz... But I can get another job ... no problem.

The machines are coming.

The difference between $10 and $15 won't change that.

Besides, they're coming for everyone. Not just minimum wage earners. It is comparatively easier and cheaper to write software that automates white collar work than it is to build hardware that automates blue collar work.

Midwest

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2016, 03:43:29 PM »


How about just paying them to live and behave themselves?  In other words, a permanent welfare state. 

Then there is the rational choice of paying the lower classes a slightly inflated wage for lower skilled work that will allow them to lead half-way decent lives while retaining a degree of self respect.  Yes, they are technically being paid more than they are worth but it addresses the problems mentioned above.   

Think of a livable minimum wage as a social compromise.


I think much of what you speak of is already happening.  Those at the bottom make a wage plus government benefits and the earned income credit in many cases.  If they are a 2 earner household, minimum wage at present is already over $30k a year plus the aforementioned benefits.  Not a huge income, but livable. 

I'm not arguing against minimum wage entirely or a small increase but those arguing for $15 an hour are asking for an unreasonable (in my opinion) increase.

To add MMM luxury lifestyle is $25k a year for 3 people with healthcare.  If you go to the no frills version it's under $17k a year. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/
That is without rent/mortgage.  That makes a major difference.  I spend about $39,000 but over $10000 is daycare and another $10,000 plus is rent.  You can't ignore those expenses.

He has $2k per year of property taxes which don't exist if you have rent.  In a low COL area, for 2 kids those numbers are on the high side of what is possible regarding childcare.  If you have 2 kids @ minimum wage and are married, you also qualify for the earned income credit.  That helps the equation as well.

If someone is making minimum wage for any length of time in a high COL, why are they still living there?  Or more accurately, why should we further subsidize their choice to live in an expensive area via a federal mandate.  If states or cities wish to do so, they can make that argument to their constituents as costs vary significantly between areas.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 03:46:23 PM by Midwest »

Gin1984

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2016, 04:08:24 PM »


How about just paying them to live and behave themselves?  In other words, a permanent welfare state. 

Then there is the rational choice of paying the lower classes a slightly inflated wage for lower skilled work that will allow them to lead half-way decent lives while retaining a degree of self respect.  Yes, they are technically being paid more than they are worth but it addresses the problems mentioned above.   

Think of a livable minimum wage as a social compromise.


I think much of what you speak of is already happening.  Those at the bottom make a wage plus government benefits and the earned income credit in many cases.  If they are a 2 earner household, minimum wage at present is already over $30k a year plus the aforementioned benefits.  Not a huge income, but livable. 

I'm not arguing against minimum wage entirely or a small increase but those arguing for $15 an hour are asking for an unreasonable (in my opinion) increase.

To add MMM luxury lifestyle is $25k a year for 3 people with healthcare.  If you go to the no frills version it's under $17k a year. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/
That is without rent/mortgage.  That makes a major difference.  I spend about $39,000 but over $10000 is daycare and another $10,000 plus is rent.  You can't ignore those expenses.

He has $2k per year of property taxes which don't exist if you have rent.  In a low COL area, for 2 kids those numbers are on the high side of what is possible regarding childcare.  If you have 2 kids @ minimum wage and are married, you also qualify for the earned income credit.  That helps the equation as well.

If someone is making minimum wage for any length of time in a high COL, why are they still living there?  Or more accurately, why should we further subsidize their choice to live in an expensive area via a federal mandate.  If states or cities wish to do so, they can make that argument to their constituents as costs vary significantly between areas.
I am in a low COL area and a bit over $10,000 for daycare is on the lower end for one child.  And yes, I agree he has property taxes/insurance that eats into the rent number but frankly there is a reason he paid off his mortgage, it makes a difference.

simmias

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2016, 04:11:28 PM »

***According to the logic of my co-workers who repeat something akin to the following complainypants line with maddening regularity: "Well, if they're gonna raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour, then I'm just gonna go get a job a McDonalds!" Imagine the millions of higher-earning jobs that will instantly open up all across America!
I don't see how that's a bad point.  A substantial increase like that would lead to more competition for the lower-skill jobs as people who have left the labor force will re-enter, and those who can least afford to lose out will.

$15/hour is a silly number that instantly turns off a large segment of people, not just "conservatives."  I'm not against raising the minimum wage, but $15/hour federal is fantasy land.

And have any of you looked at the statistics for who actually gets minimum wage?  4% of hourly workers make the federal minimum or lower.  50% of minimum wage earners are under age 24.  50% are in food prep/waitstaff (where they can supplement with tips).  47% live in the South, where there is a significantly lower COL.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/characteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf

Tyson

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2016, 04:58:03 PM »
Why do you think that?
Is there a maximum wage?

No, but there should be.
No, there should not.  The government should not be in the business of determining employees' salaries...either at the top or the bottom.

Now, if you think the government should provide everyone (and I mean everyone...even those at the top) with some sort of "living income" then that's a debate I'm willing to have.


You're wrong, in the exact same way all Austrian Schoolers are.  If your theory were correct, unemployment should have gone up every time the minimum wage was raised.  Well that hasn't happened.  And when the facts contradict your theory, you really should re-examine your theory.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 05:04:21 PM by tyort1 »

Prairie Stash

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2016, 05:02:05 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

So the USA might increase their minimum wage to be higher than the wages in Australia, Canada, Germany, France and the U.K.? You should stop it before your economy collapses like all those deadbeat countries. They're all crazy for paying more than the USA.

Midwest

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2016, 05:04:09 PM »


How about just paying them to live and behave themselves?  In other words, a permanent welfare state. 

Then there is the rational choice of paying the lower classes a slightly inflated wage for lower skilled work that will allow them to lead half-way decent lives while retaining a degree of self respect.  Yes, they are technically being paid more than they are worth but it addresses the problems mentioned above.   

Think of a livable minimum wage as a social compromise.


I think much of what you speak of is already happening.  Those at the bottom make a wage plus government benefits and the earned income credit in many cases.  If they are a 2 earner household, minimum wage at present is already over $30k a year plus the aforementioned benefits.  Not a huge income, but livable. 

I'm not arguing against minimum wage entirely or a small increase but those arguing for $15 an hour are asking for an unreasonable (in my opinion) increase.

To add MMM luxury lifestyle is $25k a year for 3 people with healthcare.  If you go to the no frills version it's under $17k a year. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/
That is without rent/mortgage.  That makes a major difference.  I spend about $39,000 but over $10000 is daycare and another $10,000 plus is rent.  You can't ignore those expenses.

He has $2k per year of property taxes which don't exist if you have rent.  In a low COL area, for 2 kids those numbers are on the high side of what is possible regarding childcare.  If you have 2 kids @ minimum wage and are married, you also qualify for the earned income credit.  That helps the equation as well.

If someone is making minimum wage for any length of time in a high COL, why are they still living there?  Or more accurately, why should we further subsidize their choice to live in an expensive area via a federal mandate.  If states or cities wish to do so, they can make that argument to their constituents as costs vary significantly between areas.
I am in a low COL area and a bit over $10,000 for daycare is on the lower end for one child.  And yes, I agree he has property taxes/insurance that eats into the rent number but frankly there is a reason he paid off his mortgage, it makes a difference.

We never spent nearly that much.  Always used private sitters.  Not doubting your costs, just sharing my experience.

if making minimum wage, I would look to lower my housing costs as well.  The house I grew up in was 900 sf +  a basement.  You can pick up a house like that for 70k or less in our area (also low cost).  Property taxes are 1000 a year.  Not saying living on minimum wage is easy or desirable, but it is doable.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 05:14:21 PM by Midwest »

nancyjnelson

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2016, 05:25:34 PM »
The media often seems to frame this story as undeserving people demanding to share in wealth ($15/hr is wealth?) they haven't earned.  But lets look at Bank of America which paid $0 in taxes in 2010 - instead it received a $1.9 billion tax refund.  The amount of federal income taxes Bank of America would have owed if offshore tax havens (available to the super-rich) were eliminated would have been $2.6 billion.  (Keep in mind that Bank of America received over $1.3 trillion from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Depart via the Taxpayer Bailout).

So yes, I support raising the minimum wage to $15/hr if, for no other reason, to counteract to a tiny degree the rigged financial system that those at the other end of the scale can rely on.  And the system is rigged, no joke, which is why I so appreciate the mustachian philosophy - reducing one's participation in our consumerist society is the surest way to avoid financial serfdom.


Eric

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2016, 05:27:07 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

So the USA might increase their minimum wage to be higher than the wages in Australia, Canada, Germany, France and the U.K.? You should stop it before your economy collapses like all those deadbeat countries. They're all crazy for paying more than the USA.

Poe's law?

tobitonic

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2016, 06:30:21 PM »
We need to remember that people in the United States hated paying people for stuff so much that we used to practice slavery. Americans were literally so greedy and selfish that they forced people to work for no money at all. A lot of that attitude is still present in America today.

Yup. The love of inequality runs deeply in our mainstream culture.

tobitonic

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2016, 06:34:27 PM »
If you want to see the unemployment rate skyrocket, raising the minimum wage to $15/hr would be a good way to start.

Have you checked the unemployment rate in Australia lately? Because their minimum wage is even *higher* than what you suggested. They also somehow manage to have universal healthcare!

Prairie Stash

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2016, 06:39:54 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

So the USA might increase their minimum wage to be higher than the wages in Australia, Canada, Germany, France and the U.K.? You should stop it before your economy collapses like all those deadbeat countries. They're all crazy for paying more than the USA.

Poe's law?
My apologies Eric, in general I support higher minimum wage along with other worker rights. I'm outside of the US looking in.

One of the richest countries in the world having an argument about paying the poorest workers a living wage. Often the discussion is framed with the argument that if the wage increases the economy will collapse and unemployment will run rampant (exaggeration for sure). Yet if you compare the US with all the other countries that have higher minimum wage is it really that scary? Before making a case for/against higher minimum wage look at how well/poor countries with higher wages are doing. There's real world examples, there's no need to speculate.

For example Canada has a higher minimum wage for everyone (set at the province level) and doesn't have a strange "tipping" wage, even waiters/waitresses get regular minimum wage. Yet we still go out to eat a lot, it doesn't seem to slow us down from eating like Americans (not a judgment on eating habits, just saying we're alike in many ways).

tobitonic

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2016, 06:49:30 PM »
Before making a case for/against higher minimum wage look at how well/poor countries with higher wages are doing. There's real world examples, there's no need to speculate.

Since you're Canadian, you might not be aware of this, but Americans have an almost pathological disdain for learning from other countries. This occurs frequently among both the uneducated and highly educated; there's a general cultural belief here that if we aren't doing something, it's because it doesn't work. That's where the argument stops.

The idea of seeing if the idea has worked anywhere else in the world doesn't even pop into most people's heads here; that's how most folks here are raised, and the message is reinforced every day throughout our news media.

A term frequently used to describe the phenomenon is American exceptionalism, and it's quite real. It's why the US sticks out like a sore thumb when compared to other rich countries on a plethora of social and moral issues, from universal healthcare to paid parental leave to guaranteed parental leave to military spending to higher education debt to income inequality to minimum wage levels to gun deaths to incarceration rates to energy use per capita to...the list goes on.

Yaeger

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2016, 06:49:39 PM »
Why bother with $15 per hour? Why not raise it to $20 an hour, or $30 an hour? If there were no negatives to mandating a wage floor, why not make everyone earn a minimum of $100k a year?

Raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour won't suddenly make a worker producing $10 per hour of revenue for the company worth their wage.

People for raising the minimum wage always talk about how 'fair' and 'equitable' we are if we raise it, but they never talk about the required trade-offs. The downside to raising the minimum wage, specifically how the real minimum wage is $0. The problem with the US is that we continue to lose jobs overseas as our business costs increase through taxes, regulations, and labor. If we increase labor costs, all that will do will accelerate the decline of our non-service sector jobs (the good paying jobs in our economy, the producers). Increasing the cost of our service sector employees will probably result in increased inflation for consumer goods.

tobitonic

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2016, 07:01:04 PM »
Before making a case for/against higher minimum wage look at how well/poor countries with higher wages are doing. There's real world examples, there's no need to speculate.

Since you're Canadian, you might not be aware of this, but Americans have an almost pathological disdain for learning from other countries. This occurs frequently among both the uneducated and highly educated; there's a general cultural belief here that if we aren't doing something, it's because it doesn't work. That's where the argument stops.

The idea of seeing if the idea has worked anywhere else in the world doesn't even pop into most people's heads here; that's how most folks here are raised, and the message is reinforced every day throughout our news media.

A term frequently used to describe the phenomenon is American exceptionalism, and it's quite real. It's why the US sticks out like a sore thumb when compared to other rich countries on a plethora of social and moral issues, from universal healthcare to paid parental leave to guaranteed parental leave to military spending to higher education debt to income inequality to minimum wage levels to gun deaths to incarceration rates to energy use per capita to...the list goes on.

The problem with the US is that we continue to lose jobs overseas as our business costs increase through taxes, regulations, and labor.

This is yet another example of the American exceptionalism I just mentioned, Prairie Stache. The previous poster blames US outsourcing on higher taxes, regulations, and labor; this is a typical (incorrect) opinion in our country. In contrast, many non-Americans from wealthy countries (which almost universally have higher taxes, worker protections, and employee minimum wages) are aware of how important government regulations and organized labor are to preserving manufacturing and other "outsourceable" jobs within the country.

Two of the largest global automakers are Japan and Germany; any student of labor or the auto industry knows that these two countries have some of the best worker protections for those auto makers anywhere on the globe. But to the average exceptional (and exceptionally uninformed) American, unions, taxes, and laws are the problem. It's anti-humanist brainwashing, and it runs rampant throughout our country's culture.

Yaeger

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2016, 07:12:40 PM »
This is yet another example of the American exceptionalism I just mentioned, Prairie Stache. The previous poster blames US outsourcing on higher taxes, regulations, and labor; this is a typical (incorrect) opinion in our country. In contrast, many non-Americans from wealthy countries (which almost universally have higher taxes, worker protections, and employee minimum wages) are aware of how important government regulations and organized labor is to preserving manufacturing and other "outsourceable" jobs within the country. Two of the largest global automakers are Japan and Germany; any student of labor or the auto industry knows that these two countries have some of the best worker protections for those auto marketers anywhere on the globe. But to the average exceptional (and exceptionally uninformed American), unions, taxes, and laws are the problem. It's anti-humanist brainwashing, and it runs rampant throughout our country's culture.

There's so much wrong with what you're saying. Firstly, companies use transfer pricing accounting methods to reduce their high US tax burden. But marking up products by building them overseas (like Apple) they incur the majority of the cost burden is lower tax havens. Then they assemble them in the US and pay a smaller share of their profits on the US tax scale. It's also the reason corporate inversions have been skyrocketing in the last decade. So it's simple, move as much as you can overseas to incur less costs and profit in the US. You only pay US Corporate tax on income that you bring back to the US.

Secondly, look at the ECI (Employee Cost Index). It's a rough indicator of costs per employee indexed across employers. Wages have remained relatively steady as productivity has been increasing, however costs have been increasing at a fairly linear rate. Meaning that at least a portion of our wage growth is being consumed by higher costs on the employer. Things like increased state and federal taxes, compliance costs, mandatory worker benefits, etc. also contributing to flat wage growth has been a cultural shift in the workplace towards more non-monetary benefits in lieu of higher wages.

I'm all for increasing wages for worker, but let's not pretend that these things happen in a vacuum or with the stroke of a pen. You need to deliver a product that people want to buy at a competitive price. Japan and Germany automakers make exceptional products that sell around the world. US workers, not so much.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 07:14:45 PM by Yaeger »

BTDretire

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2016, 07:32:07 PM »
We need to remember that people in the United States hated paying people for stuff so much that we used to practice slavery. Americans were literally so greedy and selfish that they forced people to work for no money at all. A lot of that attitude is still present in America today.

  The only actual number I can find is,
"1.4 percent of white Americans owned black slaves at the HEIGHT of slavery."
If that's true, very few, "Americans were literally so greedy and selfish".
Also, that sanctioned greed ended 156 years ago.
I don't think you need to hang that on Americans living today.
You might want to look into the charity that Americans give.
You might feel better.


Leisured

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2016, 03:43:39 AM »
in Australia, our experience is that an increase in the Government age pension is spent immediately, and this would also occur if low wage workers were paid more. Shopkeepers in a poor neighborhood would experience a sharp increase in spending, assuming these better paid workers still had their jobs. The extra spending will, to some extent, create jobs in that poor neighborhood.

I understand that fast food is more expensive in Australia because fast food workers have to be paid at least A$17 an hour, for an adult.

I agree with those who say the machines are coming, and even pushing minimum wages down will have little effect.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2016, 04:24:01 AM »
If you want to see the unemployment rate skyrocket, raising the minimum wage to $15/hr would be a good way to start.

Have you checked the unemployment rate in Australia lately? Because their minimum wage is even *higher* than what you suggested. They also somehow manage to have universal healthcare!

Yeah, although it's not over $15USD an hour anymore ($12.32 an hour with the current exchange rate).

Although, part of it is cultural, with the idea of a "fair go" highly valued in Australian culture:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/australians-value-a-fair-go-highest/2006/11/11/1162661949374.html
http://ozwords.org/?p=12
in Australia, our experience is that an increase in the Government age pension is spent immediately, and this would also occur if low wage workers were paid more. Shopkeepers in a poor neighborhood would experience a sharp increase in spending, assuming these better paid workers still had their jobs. The extra spending will, to some extent, create jobs in that poor neighborhood.

I understand that fast food is more expensive in Australia because fast food workers have to be paid at least A$17 an hour, for an adult.

I agree with those who say the machines are coming, and even pushing minimum wages down will have little effect.

Arguably it might also increase rents/house prices in the area, but I agree with you.

As for the fast food thing, I remember getting a Chipotle burrito a couple of times when I was in the US late last year, and once I did the sums and converted it to Aussie dollars, there wasn't much difference between a burrito from Chipotle over there and a similar burrito from Mad Mex here. (~$7.70USD+tax or $10.90AUD inc GST) Of course it's just one anecdotal example :)

Thing is, the $17.29 minimum wage here only applies to those 21+. Under the age of 21, the minimum wage is lower, which is why most of the fast food stores are staffed by teenagers.

Back on topic, what seems kinda weird to me is that people over there in the US working on minimum wage will work full time and earn so little that they still require substantial government assistance to survive. Surely it'd be better off to increase the minimum wage and thus the expenditure on government assistance?

music lover

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2016, 11:23:05 AM »
Why do you think that?
Is there a maximum wage?

No, but there should be.

No, there shouldn't be. If I was lucky enough to have a very successful business and decided to make my salary $10 million a year, then I would happily do so without your input or approval. You have no right to tell me how to spend my money unless you are also willing to let others decide how you should spend your money.

Are you willing to let others decide how your money should be spent?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 11:24:54 AM by music lover »

FIRE me

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2016, 11:34:17 AM »
You are very OK with income inequality as long as you are talking about inequality with those who make / have less than you.

You are very against income inequality as long as you are talking about inequality with those who make / have more than you.

That seems to be the average American view that rally against the .01% while simultaneously opposing a minimum wage increase.  That means they only want to reduce everyone to a low level rather than raise people up to a higher level.  A higher minimum wage does both at the same. (raises the low and lowers the high)

Yep. People think that keeping other people down in the basement will make the first floor feel like the penthouse.

Well said.

Some people enjoy having a sense of superiority, at the expense of others. After getting a drive though window food order that was less than perfect, of my coworkers commented that she could not believe that they think they deserve $15 per hour. The irony was that said coworker did not enjoy a great reputation for being error free on her job.

FIRE me

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2016, 11:36:29 AM »
If you want to see the unemployment rate skyrocket, raising the minimum wage to $15/hr would be a good way to start.

That's pure FUD.

Businesses that cannot decently pay the hired help either should have the owner(s) doing the labor him (or her) self, or else go out of business, and good riddance to them. It will make room for a viable company that will hire and can afford to decently pay its employees.

Midwest

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2016, 11:51:31 AM »
If you want to see the unemployment rate skyrocket, raising the minimum wage to $15/hr would be a good way to start.

That's pure FUD.

Businesses that cannot decently pay the hired help either should have the owner(s) doing the labor him (or her) self, or else go out of business, and good riddance to them. It will make room for a viable company that will hire and can afford to decently pay its employees.

1) Do you define $15 as decent pay?
2) Businesses closing would increase unemployment.  Can't say how many businesses would fold, but an increase to $15 an hour would increase unemployment.

Here's a study of Seattle's increase to $15 an hour.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/02/19/seattles-15-minimum-wage-jobs-down-unemployment-up-this-isnt-working-is-it/#4a9237623712
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 11:53:59 AM by Midwest »

music lover

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2016, 12:00:37 PM »
Not surprisingly, no one who demands a $15 minimum wage ever seems to step up, open a business and pay their employees that magical $15.

Why don't they put their money where their mouth is?

bacchi

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2016, 12:10:34 PM »
Here's a study of Seattle's increase to $15 an hour.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/02/19/seattles-15-minimum-wage-jobs-down-unemployment-up-this-isnt-working-is-it/#4a9237623712

Here's an article (neither this one nor the Forbes link are "studies") that claims otherwise. Most importantly, the minimum wage was only $11 last year and won't be $15 for 3 more years.

http://mynorthwest.com/992/2795104/Fact-Check-Is-15-minimum-wage-really-killing-Seattle-jobs

Here's another article. In the end, "it's too early to tell." Anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/seattle-san-francisco-minimum-wage/416880/

Telecaster

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2016, 12:33:32 PM »

Capitalism leans towards a business doing whatever it can to maximize its bottom line.  In many times throughout our history that has run counter to the creation of an equitable society.  The modern US economy was built on monopolized steal and oil industries.  And while this gave the US economy massive resources, there were few systems in place to check their power.  One of those was exploitation of the labor force.  Without a minimum wage they could depress those wages far below the point we consider the poverty line, and there is still (and will probably always be) enough of an unemployment rate that someone will take that depressed wage over having nothing.  Back then labor was cheap and considered completely expendable.  Low-income families packed themselves in to tiny apartments to afford a roof to live under, didn't go to school, and ate whatever they could get their hands on.  Dead and injured workers were discarded and replacements found without a care.  The system has changed somewhat since then.  Society now considers food, clothing, shelter, and a basic education to be mandatory aspects of existence.  Without a system ensuring the ability to earn a bare minimum, the money necessary for that person/family to live will have to come from somewhere, and rather from the business' bottom line it'll come from the tax base.

That was a really good post.  Thanks for organizing your thoughts like that. 

Telecaster

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Re: Minimum Wage Increase; Unexpected Benefits
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2016, 01:19:03 PM »


1) Do you define $15 as decent pay?
2) Businesses closing would increase unemployment.  Can't say how many businesses would fold, but an increase to $15 an hour would increase unemployment.

Here's a study of Seattle's increase to $15 an hour.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/02/19/seattles-15-minimum-wage-jobs-down-unemployment-up-this-isnt-working-is-it/#4a9237623712

Hate to pile on here, but the minimum wage was already $9.47, so increasing it to $11 (not $15) probably didn't make a very big difference and a couple months of data isn't enough to spot a trend.

But we actually don't have to.  Washington State's $9.47/hour minimum wage was already the highest in the country at the time (I understand several states have now raised theirs higher).  But most states still use the federal $7.25/hour.   $7.25 to $9.47 is much more dramatic in both absolute size and percentage increase than $9.47 to $11.  So we can compare Washington with other states that pay the federal minimum.  And if indeed the minimum wage is the job killing culprit, it should be easy to spot.

But it isn't.  All the economic measures in Washington State are as good or better than other western states that pay the minimum wage.  And you can even go more granular.  Washington State shares a long border with Idaho where the federal minimum wage is in effect.  So border communities in Idaho should be doing better than similar border communities in Washington, at least in regards to unemployment. 

But they aren't.  Their economies are almost exactly the same.   And that's true for other states as well. 

https://stateimpact.npr.org/idaho/2013/05/13/bottom-rung-why-one-idaho-border-business-chose-washington/