Author Topic: Sexist things that drive me crazy  (Read 76752 times)

boy_bye

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #300 on: February 27, 2015, 02:58:08 PM »
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And what do you mean, men don't have reproductive freedom? Men have *always* had the freedom to have sex and walk away.

This is quite false.

A woman can name any man she likes as the father, he gets a letter in the mail, if he does not prove he isn't the father within 30 days—(suppose the letter gets lost by the USPS?)—he is now the father and must pay. He cannot contest it. http://reason.com/archives/2004/02/01/injustice-by-default

A man who is raped while unconscious must likewise pay child support http://al.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19961122_0042048.AL.htm/qx

A boy who is the victim of statutory rape must pay child support to his rapist. http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/16/arizona-statutory-rape-victim-ordered-to-pay-child-support

And for how much of human history has anything like this been true? For all but maybe the last 50 years, that's how long.

And how many men are impacted like the men in these examples? Surely it's far far fewer than the women in history who were forced to bear children they did not want until their junk fell out? Surely it's far fewer than the number of women who are injured and killed and raped and abused by their partners? And surely it's far less of an impact on their lives than, you know, being OWNED by one's father or husband.

I'm not saying we have it perfect now, but it's far better than when men actually could walk away from their sexual choices with impunity. No doubt we will continue to see development on this in the future.

It's shocking to me how many women seem to have such an axe to grind against the very movement that has permitted them the education and self-possession to even be able to make the arguments.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #301 on: February 27, 2015, 03:09:47 PM »
My assertion still stands: as long as you think that you are the equal of men, you are a feminist too.  Hatred of parts of the movement doesn't make that any less true, it just means that you should work toward changing the narrative and focusing on what you think the real issues are.

And that is my last word on this subject.

Actually, belief in equality makes one egalitarian.

You don't get to forcibly stick people into your ideological group any more than one reasonably say "Oh, you believe in the Golden Rule? That makes you a Christian!" or "Oh, you follow Mustachian principle of reducing your desire for worldly goods? Buddhist!" or "Oh you think farm animals shouldn't be raised in horrible conditions? You're an animal rights PETA activist!". The reality is, I disagree with nearly everything modern feminism teaches, particularly regarding patriarchy, oppression, and the "War on Women". I don't get along with people who have a helpless victim mindset. Your movement doesn't work for me, and like most women and men today, I want no part in it.
Actually no the defintion of feminist is one who believes men and women should be equal.  It would be like someone who believes in the Abrahamic God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit saying I am not Christians because those groups don't agree with me on all things. 
Feminist don't have a helpless victim mindset, in fact most feminists I know are extremely strong people (not just women) who are willing to work very hard to achieve their goals. 

Zikoris

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #302 on: February 27, 2015, 03:31:42 PM »
My assertion still stands: as long as you think that you are the equal of men, you are a feminist too.  Hatred of parts of the movement doesn't make that any less true, it just means that you should work toward changing the narrative and focusing on what you think the real issues are.

And that is my last word on this subject.

Actually, belief in equality makes one egalitarian.

You don't get to forcibly stick people into your ideological group any more than one reasonably say "Oh, you believe in the Golden Rule? That makes you a Christian!" or "Oh, you follow Mustachian principle of reducing your desire for worldly goods? Buddhist!" or "Oh you think farm animals shouldn't be raised in horrible conditions? You're an animal rights PETA activist!". The reality is, I disagree with nearly everything modern feminism teaches, particularly regarding patriarchy, oppression, and the "War on Women". I don't get along with people who have a helpless victim mindset. Your movement doesn't work for me, and like most women and men today, I want no part in it.
Actually no the defintion of feminist is one who believes men and women should be equal.  It would be like someone who believes in the Abrahamic God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit saying I am not Christians because those groups don't agree with me on all things. 
Feminist don't have a helpless victim mindset, in fact most feminists I know are extremely strong people (not just women) who are willing to work very hard to achieve their goals.

Equality is not a concept one group gets to own outright. Groups can't individually own broad moral principles.

In any case, there are definitely people who believe in the Christian god, etc, but don't consider themselves Christian due to disagreement with church teachings and actions - they consider themselves "spiritual". There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 04:07:54 PM by Zikoris »

Celda

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #303 on: February 28, 2015, 12:30:36 AM »
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And for how much of human history has anything like this been true? For all but maybe the last 50 years, that's how long.

And how many men are impacted like the men in these examples? Surely it's far far fewer than the women in history who were forced to bear children they did not want until their junk fell out? Surely it's far fewer than the number of women who are injured and killed and raped and abused by their partners? And surely it's far less of an impact on their lives than, you know, being OWNED by one's father or husband...

I don't understand why you insist on talking about history. That is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is about the present day. I.e. discussing the feminist movement as it stands today, reproductive rights for men and women as they stand today (men have virtually none).

You don't see anyone talking about how literally forcing men to fight and die in foreign wars is proof of injustice against men today. For the obvious reason that it is not happening today, in the United States anyway. (though of course America still has Selective Service which is immoral in itself, and other countries like Switzerland still have conscription).

The fact is that in America today, men face actual issues of violation of rights, as well as serious social issues. Women also face serious social issues, but not violations of rights. The situation is quite different in certain other countries of course.

That is somewhat tangential to the main discussion though.

Back to the topic at hand:

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Actually no the defintion of feminist is one who believes men and women should be equal.

This is an incredibly weak argument, in many ways.

By this logic, one could create a group, define it in a broad enough way as to include people who have never even heard of it, and then hold virtually any belief or commit virtually any action while proclaiming that "anyone who is X belongs to our group".

Suppose a group is created call "Zakarism". Its creators define it as "being passionate about physical fitness and exercise". So if you're into fitness, then you're a Zakarist. Except it turns out that Zakarists also believe that fat people are inferior human beings and deserve insults and mockery. So those who disagreed, would not want to call themselves Zakarists.

By your argument, anyone who was passionate about exercising would be a Zakarist.

Let's look at it another way. Take a person who believes that all humans are equally deserving of death, because humanity as a species has harmed the environment and the planet. They truly desire the death of all people, regardless of gender. They truly see no difference between men and women, except as lifeforms that should be exterminated.

By your argument, this person would be a feminist. If we accept that, then the word means very little.


TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #304 on: February 28, 2015, 08:35:14 AM »
On reproductive rights:

If a woman terminates her pregnancy without informing her husband, she has not committed a crime.  Depending on your judge, it won't even be admissible in divorce proceedings.

If a man terminates his pregnancy without informing his wife, at best he's looking at some kind of assault conviction.

Both of these situations are so horrible as to be beyond my capacity to think about in anything other than abstract terms.

Reproductive rights is a sticky subject.  If you, as a woman, want to conceive a child, provided everything is working properly you can both do that and have a reasonable expectation of maintaining custody of that child.  A man is beholden to a woman to jointly conceive that child (within the law, rapists can all go die in a fire).  If a man does nothing wrong and dedicates his entire life with all his being to both mother and child, he still has no reasonable expectation of keeping the child.  By law, if his wife decides to leave, she will almost always be able to take the child with her. 

Mother Know's Best is the law, it's sexist as could be, and feminism is absolutely silent about it, except when the time comes to attack a men's rights group as being "pro-rape."

The right to walk away from a sexual encounter with no consequences has nothing to do with reproductive rights. 

What you're talking about is sexual rights.  A woman shouldn't be judged because she has lots of sex with lots of different partners (or no sex with any partners) or judged in any way based on her sex life.  But as a manslut I can promise you there are social, cultural, career, and financial consequences of a lack of discretion if it accompanies this behavior for both sexes.  We all of us need to mind quite a bit more of our own business.  We all of us also could stand to keep a little bit more of our business to ourselves.

This is the world though.  This is how it is:  As long as there are sexually transmitted diseases and destructible condoms, there will always be consequences of sex, no matter how unfair it may seem once you're in the doctor's office.

A man has a really tough time getting pregnant!  This is how it is, and there are consequences of that.  If feminism wants to claim credit for everything, then they get to claim credit for not including men in a women's right to choose.  If it makes sense that a woman can terminate her pregnancy, then I should get to choose to terminate mine too.  That's equality.

It's also batshit fucking crazy.  Men and women, biologically, are not equal.  To the extent it is possible, they should be treated equally under the law.  Has that been accomplished?  I think it has, or at least, it's about 95% there.  That last 5%, be careful, because there's a way to fix that the wrong way.  If you don't involve us in the discussion because we are "privileged" and therefore irrelevant, then you will over-correct.  Which isn't justice.



Fill in the blanks to this sentence with whatever you think is a women's rights issue in the modern world:

"As a woman, I am not allowed to ____, which men are allowed to do. If I go ahead and do ____ anyways, the punishment will be _____"

For example, a third world example: "As a woman, I am not allowed to DRIVE A CAR, which men are allowed to do. If I go ahead and DRIVE A CAR anyways, the punishment will be LASHING"

I'm not aware of anything like that in North America.



Independent of what you think the validity of the other arguments are, how would you fill this out?  And then what is the response to that issue.  I fill out for myself, as a man, what I am not allowed to do, which women are allowed to do, etc.  And then as a response, it's mostly alot of, well you can avoid the situation, or you can deal with the punishments.

As an example:  As a man, I'm not allowed to discuss the working of my reproductive organs in the workplace, which women are allowed to do.  If I go ahead and do it anyways, the punishment will be job loss, and potential civil sexual harassment/hostile workplace suit.

Talking to myself, I'd say, dude, first off, that punishment is highly unlikely.  And second of all, that is inappropriate conversation for the workplace.

But what I don't do, is go try and get a law passed or repealed to change that, because I recognize both that most guys are way grosser than I am, and if I'm ever an employer of women I'll be grateful a law exists that lets me kick the jackasses out.  But I also won't abuse the law.  The right way to deal with this situation wasn't those punishments though, it was sit down and fucking have a conversation about what we don't do in this shop.  And then if those rules don't work for someone, they go find another job.

Every. single. time. a man is accused under these conditions he is guilty, and faces additional punishments culturally outside of what is just.  And if he dares speak up about that, he is buried under a shitstorm of feminist crap.

Agreed, historically men have done bad things, but that doesn't justify this now.

So when you see men and women push back and say, things have changed alot in 50 years, maybe we consider that things are just the right amount of unfair for everyone, and let it normalize a bit, that isn't irrational.

Some of us are thinking the scales are tipping towards overcorrection.  We don't hate women, we believe in equality.  If there's a clear and evident injustice we want to see it corrected.  But it's also possible that some of it will normalize over time.  Attitudes have improved over time, you cannot deny that.  Things have gotten better.  It is not entirely your fault they have gotten better, it is not entirely our fault they haven't gotten better faster.

The pay gap troubles me.  My current job is about 50/50 men and women, right up to the top of the company.  At lunch the other day a co-worker was whining about not getting a raise in awhile. 

"Did you ask for one?"
"They should just give it to me, I shouldn't have to ask."
"Well, I agree with the sentiment, but bosses are human too, don't let your manager's oversight cost you actual money."

I'm not saying the pay gap is entirely because of this, but both people talking were women who worked for a woman, and it's the first time I've ever heard one of them say anything like "go ask for a raise".  I tell people, men and women, all the time, if you don't like your current pay ask for more.  If you don't get it go somewhere else.  If you aren't sure, start looking, and if you don't find higher paying work elsewhere, maybe your current wage is fair.  It sounds sexist, so I hate to even think it, but maybe women are just less willing to risk pissing off their boss by asking for a raise.  Maybe a large number of people are unwilling to see the world as it is, full of people who are honestly trying their best to be as fair as they can within the bounds of their resources, and instead assume widespread "institutionalized" discrimination against their particular group.  Full disclaimer, I know people, men and women, who've been fired for asking for a raise.  Personally, I'm not the type.  I just go find a new job.  If you want to keep me as an employee, you pay me to stay.

The blind studies where male names get better hits then female when resumes are sent out: fuck those companies.  Seriously.  You are better off.  I know it's not a solution, but it's what can be done now.  Let them wither and die with their complete lack of female employees.  Oh they do still employ women?  Weird.

As a man, I am not allowed to start a company or organization which hires/accepts only men, as women are allowed to allow only women into their organizations.  If I do it anyways, my business will be forced by a court order/point of a gun to allow women.  And once there are women there, we can't talk about our junk anymore.  It was the whole point of the club!


Metta

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #305 on: February 28, 2015, 01:21:01 PM »
While I agree his comment was sexist I would never consider this a case of sexual harassment. Far from it. I say this as a female who has worked in very non-traditional (for women) grubby dangerous jobs with all males all of her life. Sexist comments in the guise of "gentlemanly" behavior (and woman are often just as prone to do it to other women as well) can be a PITA and totally uncalled for, but it is a far cry from sexual harassment and can usually be dealt with easily. Just a "no thanks I can do it myself" is all that's usually needed - whether that's opening a door, hooking up your computer or cleaning your .50 cal machine gun.

Yes, precisely. I think you are so much more badass than me with your .50 cal machine gun! When I say, "Thanks, I'm OK doing it myself" I am almost always talking about something to do with computers. I am now going to have fantasies about saying this while cleaning a .50 cal machine gun.  :)
Ha Ha!! Well they are much more fun to shoot then to clean :-)!

Although in seriousness, it would be much more pleasant if people (men and women) thought before they spoke when offering help. It is no more appropriate to say "you need a man/or woman to do the job" (hook up the computer or change the tire or cook the meal) then it is to say "you need a white/or black person to do the job".  The implication is that the person isn't capable based only on their gender or their race while a person of another gender/race is capable for no other reason then their gender or race. So when women hear the "let a man do it" to their ears it's just as offensive as saying "let a white person do it" to someone who's black. If people want to offer to help, then just offer to help without any gender implications. It's polite and there will be no offense taken by most people.

I love the photo! You clearly look like you are enjoying shooting your gun.  :) 

Did you actually shoot it in a conflict? One does not hear much about the Coast Guard.

I once had the great honor of attending a ship christening for a new ship in the Merchant Marine and was astonished by the complexity and diversity of our Navy (though I was not really certain where the Navy stopped and the civilian sector began) and how seamlessly all the pieces seemed to work together. (I'm still pretty muzzy on whether or not the Merchant Marine is part of the Navy.) One of the guests at the dinner prior to the christening told me with some pride that Merchant Marine Academy was the first of the military academies to accept women into their ranks. I had the impression from her that it was relatively welcoming in contrast to some of the other services.

Since this is a sexism thread
(and not a cool gun and boat thread), did you find it difficult to get on with people when you joined or was the Coast Guard more akin to the Merchant Marine?
I'll keep it short since it is a "sexist things that drive you nuts" thread but no, no problems ever. No combat duty - just maritime law enforcement (most senior enlisted like I was are Federal Law Enforcement Officers) but the CG does engage in combat under the Dept of the Navy when needed and lifted it's ban on women in combat back in the 1970's so all jobs and units have been open to women a long time. Glad to see the other services lift that ban too (now to include women in the draft/selective service for more true equality - a sexist thing that drives me nuts - not that I agree we should have a draft but for true equality I believe women should equally have to bear the negative things as well as the positive ones IMHO). CG is not like the Merchant Marine at all though -  very different duties and service.

OK back on topic - sorry for the derail.

I agree that when there is a draft/selective service registration requirement it should be applied in a gender-neutral fashion. It's kind of maddening that men can be denied financial aid and security clearances for failing to register but women do not have to. This is obviously unfair to men, but it is harmful to women as well. Unless one is fully responsible for all the duties of citizenship, one can never be a full citizen of a country.

I think that some sort of requirement to serve one's country for a span of time, either through the military or through other types of service, would probably be a good thing. I do not believe that anyone should be forced to serve in combat positions, especially not those who are conscientious objectors, but it seems to me that there are many ways to serve that do not include hoisting a weapon and shooting people.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #306 on: February 28, 2015, 01:23:06 PM »
I do think women should have to sign up, just as men do. 

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #307 on: March 02, 2015, 08:17:18 AM »
Republican Lawmaker Questions If Consent Is Needed By Unconscious Spouse
http://samuel-warde.com/2015/02/republican-lawmaker-questions-consent-needed-unconscious-spouse/
This is being debating now, and people think we don't need feminism?

Zikoris

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #308 on: March 02, 2015, 09:09:05 AM »
Republican Lawmaker Questions If Consent Is Needed By Unconscious Spouse
http://samuel-warde.com/2015/02/republican-lawmaker-questions-consent-needed-unconscious-spouse/
This is being debating now, and people think we don't need feminism?

I believe this is related to the current case involving the couple in their 80s, married for 50 years, with one of them starting to develop Alzheimers, and the question being whether consent can happen in that case. I don't think it's completely cut-and-dried either way.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #309 on: March 02, 2015, 09:19:44 AM »
Republican Lawmaker Questions If Consent Is Needed By Unconscious Spouse
http://samuel-warde.com/2015/02/republican-lawmaker-questions-consent-needed-unconscious-spouse/
This is being debating now, and people think we don't need feminism?

I believe this is related to the current case involving the couple in their 80s, married for 50 years, with one of them starting to develop Alzheimers, and the question being whether consent can happen in that case. I don't think it's completely cut-and-dried either way.
I am so disgusted I can hardly put my thoughts into words.  It is extremely cut and dried.  This law would allow marital and possibly date rape to become legal again.    The fact that you think that is ok is horrifying and shows a complete lack of understanding of reality.  I'm done.  Feel free to tell your boyfriend that he can have sex we'd with you when you are unconscious and that you have no right to revoke consent but don't be crazy enough to think the rest of us think that is ok.   

Celda

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #310 on: March 02, 2015, 10:45:43 PM »
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I am so disgusted I can hardly put my thoughts into words.  It is extremely cut and dried.  This law would allow marital and possibly date rape to become legal again.    The fact that you think that is ok is horrifying and shows a complete lack of understanding of reality.  I'm done.  Feel free to tell your boyfriend that he can have sex we'd with you when you are unconscious and that you have no right to revoke consent but don't be crazy enough to think the rest of us think that is ok.   

The article you linked had nothing to do with legalizing marital rape (in the sense that you are claiming - making marriage a state of consent such that a person could not, under the law, be charged with raping their spouse).

It talked about whether having sex with an unconscious person should not be inherently illegal. And no, it should not be. If you disagree, then you are either haven't thought it through or have unreasonable beliefs.

A woman who starts playing with her sleeping husband's genitals (perhaps further than just playing), knowing that her husband is ok with that due to previous discussions, has done nothing unethical. And that should not be illegal, even when you switch the genders.

A woman who starts playing with a passed out man's (that she does not know) genitals at a college party is acting unethically, and that act should be illegal. For both genders.

In other words, your claim that a person would "have no right to revoke consent" with their spouse is quite false.

a moist sack of nickels

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #311 on: March 17, 2015, 07:05:35 PM »
I appreciate when people talk about the nuance and grey areas of consent because it is helpfully telegraphing to anyone paying attention that they should steer clear of this person.