Author Topic: March For Our Lives 3/24/18  (Read 22286 times)

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1154
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2018, 01:50:48 PM »
Taking our guns away is not going to stop mentally disturbed people from running amok. 

Strawmen are fun to rage against, huh?  Try again.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4414
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2018, 01:57:13 PM »
Taking our guns away is not going to stop mentally disturbed people from running amok. 

Strawmen are fun to rage against, huh?  Try again.

Just one of many invisible enemies...

saijoe

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 96
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2018, 02:29:12 PM »
Marching is fine, but what does it accomplish?  I too am libertarian and I also happen to have a couple of guns (one is an AR-15).  Wouldn't we be better served by listening to the other side, whatever that is.  I would fall into whatever side fell into the side of liberty.  In other words, I am in favor of the second amendment. 

But with that said, I can acknowledge that controlling some large magazine weapons might result in fewer deaths during a shooting event.  If that's the case, let's talk about it.  Talking about banning assault rifles would presuppose there was a definition of an assault rifle.  The differentiator seems to be the quantity of ammo in the magazine. 

But in my opinion, none of this addresses the root of the problem.  The laws haven't changed significantly for many, many years.  What's changed in the past 20 years?  Too many people among us without any moral clarity or respect for human life.  How did we get here?  Something to ponder. 

But both sides need to be flexible and thoughtful.  The gun totin' right needs to realize that some small changes in gun control won't take away guns for law abiding citizens.  And the left crazies need to realize that there are good people out there that have guns and they have a right to be concerned about their rights.  is there nobody in the center? 

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1978
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2018, 02:48:36 PM »
Marching is fine, but what does it accomplish?  I too am libertarian and I also happen to have a couple of guns (one is an AR-15).  Wouldn't we be better served by listening to the other side, whatever that is.  I would fall into whatever side fell into the side of liberty.  In other words, I am in favor of the second amendment. 

But with that said, I can acknowledge that controlling some large magazine weapons might result in fewer deaths during a shooting event.  If that's the case, let's talk about it.  Talking about banning assault rifles would presuppose there was a definition of an assault rifle.  The differentiator seems to be the quantity of ammo in the magazine. 

But in my opinion, none of this addresses the root of the problem.  The laws haven't changed significantly for many, many years.  What's changed in the past 20 years?  Too many people among us without any moral clarity or respect for human life.  How did we get here?  Something to ponder. 

But both sides need to be flexible and thoughtful.  The gun totin' right needs to realize that some small changes in gun control won't take away guns for law abiding citizens.  And the left crazies need to realize that there are good people out there that have guns and they have a right to be concerned about their rights.  is there nobody in the center?

The center may very well be the majority, we just don't make as good of a news story. And I think an awful lot of the "center" came out for this march because it's become more and more clear that NRA leadership is not interested in compromise, they're interested in lobbying for gun manufacturers. Too many politicians are being bought and the people are not being represented.

If you're interested in discussing the logic and practicality of specific bans and restrictions on firearms, there is one active thread and several older ones:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/11-school-shootings-in-26-days/

You might want to skip the first few pages, that's where most of the "emotional outrage" is gotten out of the way.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4414
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2018, 02:54:46 PM »
Marching is fine, but what does it accomplish?  I too am libertarian and I also happen to have a couple of guns (one is an AR-15).  Wouldn't we be better served by listening to the other side, whatever that is.  I would fall into whatever side fell into the side of liberty.  In other words, I am in favor of the second amendment. 

But with that said, I can acknowledge that controlling some large magazine weapons might result in fewer deaths during a shooting event.  If that's the case, let's talk about it.  Talking about banning assault rifles would presuppose there was a definition of an assault rifle.  The differentiator seems to be the quantity of ammo in the magazine. 

But in my opinion, none of this addresses the root of the problem.  The laws haven't changed significantly for many, many years.  What's changed in the past 20 years?  Too many people among us without any moral clarity or respect for human life.  How did we get here?  Something to ponder. 

But both sides need to be flexible and thoughtful.  The gun totin' right needs to realize that some small changes in gun control won't take away guns for law abiding citizens.  And the left crazies need to realize that there are good people out there that have guns and they have a right to be concerned about their rights.  is there nobody in the center?

The center may very well be the majority, we just don't make as good of a news story. And I think an awful lot of the "center" came out for this march because it's become more and more clear that NRA leadership is not interested in compromise, they're interested in lobbying for gun manufacturers. Too many politicians are being bought and the people are not being represented.


This is exactly right.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1154
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2018, 03:06:15 PM »
Marching is fine, but what does it accomplish?  I too am libertarian and I also happen to have a couple of guns (one is an AR-15).  Wouldn't we be better served by listening to the other side, whatever that is.  I would fall into whatever side fell into the side of liberty.  In other words, I am in favor of the second amendment. 

Well, thousands of new voters got registered for the first time on Saturday. The movement also defined their 3 policy goals on guns:

1) Universal background checks
2) Limiting high-capacity magazines
3) Assault weapons ban

I assume #3 is where you might get held up.

But do you believe the Civil Rights Act would have passed with the protests?  Without the marches?  Sometimes, in order to enact change, demonstrations are needed.

Quote
Wouldn't we be better served by listening to the other side

Curious...why are you not asking this of the NRA/gun-toting right?  There's been no major policy change in a long time - nothing through Congress since Sandy Hook.  Wouldn't we be better served by listening to the victims of all these shootings?

No one is calling for abolishing the 2nd Amendment, but rather to update it and provide the regulation in "well-regulated" and update our laws for the advanced weapons of war we see all across the country now.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."

This movement and the marches on Saturday were to say we have to stop doing the same thing over and over (nothing) and start to enact policy changes that will help prevent guns from ending up in the hands of killers.  I don't care if that's left, center, or right...it's the correct stance to take.

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2018, 04:58:39 PM »
Upped mine and the wife's NRA membership to Life yesterday.
Dropped a bit of extra into the NRA coffers as well.

Good for voicing you're political opinions and I shall voice mine as well.  :)

As far as the theory that Gun Manufacturers give to NRA who gives to canidates...  Well...
Hopefully CNN isn't too biased for anyone here...

I predict by the end of this year, NRA rolls will have expanded to 10 million people.  Maybe more.

(Edit to fix a broken link)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 05:15:18 PM by TexasRunner »

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2177
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2018, 05:02:43 PM »
I prefer an AR-15 because it is the home defense weapon I feel most comfortable using due my military experience.  Confidence in your ability to use a weapon is very important during stressful situations.

Ehh, why stop there then if applying that logic? How about an MP3, or an M249! You could really lay waste waste to that intruder(s). Although I prefer a radio with a pair of A-10s on station circling overhead. I mean even if they got away with jewelry or something laying down some 30mm on top of their vehicle would be sweet vengeance! 

sui generis

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2018, 05:18:04 PM »
Here are some gun owners explaining why they support and attended the March for Our Lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cDnmkorwk

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4414
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2018, 05:51:05 PM »
Here are some gun owners explaining why they support and attended the March for Our Lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cDnmkorwk

As a gun owner myself, I add my voice to theirs.

BlueHouse

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3152
  • Location: WDC
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2018, 07:01:55 PM »
Here are some gun owners explaining why they support and attended the March for Our Lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cDnmkorwk

As a gun owner myself, I add my voice to theirs.

Ditto. I own three guns and I was out there marching on Saturday

But these marchers seem angry and directionless, just lashing out at those they disagree with politically more than offering solutions. 

I think you should go out and join one of these marches.  I've never met so many pleasant and hopeful people.  Angry?  Where?  Who?  The survivors?  sure...of course they're angry, their friends were murdered in front of their eyes.  But the people in the streets?  No.  hopeful and inspired by the courage of the students.
If you want to do something, why not be the person who tries to understand the other side rather than sitting on the sidelines and assuming you know what the rest of us think?  Talk to us.  Learn what we feel.  Try to see it from a different perspective.  That's what discussion and debate are about....not about being right. 

Peter Parker

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2018, 07:04:57 PM »
I'm against senseless killing.  Is there anyone who isn't?

But these marchers seem angry and directionless, just lashing out at those they disagree with politically more than offering solutions. 

Screaming that "the NRA is killing babies" and similar is just plain stupid and inflammatory- it isn't helping.

I've been using guns for ~40 years.  Never killed anything.  And unless you break through my front door at 3 AM looking to steal or kill my family, you are in no danger from my guns.

Taking our guns away is not going to stop mentally disturbed people from running amok. 

I would suggest that demonizing solid citizens like my wife and I is probably not the best solution.

And yeah, I own an AR-15.  Not because I plan on a killing spree.  Not because I think it "looks bad ass." 

I prefer an AR-15 because it is the home defense weapon I feel most comfortable using due my military experience.  Confidence in your ability to use a weapon is very important during stressful situations.

I just renewed my lapsed NRA membership (and my wife's)...

On behalf of the 14 to 18 year olds who saw their classmates gunned downed, I apologize that they were angry and this upset you so....

On behalf of the eloquent and thoughtful students, I apologize that they seem "directionless."  Rest assured that they won't be when it comes time to vote.

On behalf of those children from Columbine to Parkland who have frightened you so much that you think they can erase the 2nd Amendment and take ALL guns away, I'm sorry you got so scared....

On behalf of those of us who used to support the NRA, but can no longer take the looney-toon rhetoric of their spokespeople, I'm sorry that these children gave your "adults" a piece of their own medicine....

On behalf of those you have not shot with your AR-15, thank you for being so upstanding (but if you go on a bender, I take it all back)

And I am personally sorry that I matched your contribution to the NRA, by donating to the Sandy Hook Promise, along with my wife....

« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 08:16:33 PM by Peter Parker »

Peter Parker

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2018, 07:07:34 PM »
Here are some gun owners explaining why they support and attended the March for Our Lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cDnmkorwk

As a gun owner myself, I add my voice to theirs.

Most, if not all, of my gun-owning friends feel the same way.  Thank you for showing there are reasonable people out there....You and my other gun-owning friends restored my faith in humanity....

The hunters in the video echo, almost verbatim, the position of my hunting friends.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 07:57:34 PM by Peter Parker »

MonkeyJenga

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8496
  • Location: the woods
  • resting up for 2020
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2018, 07:15:54 PM »
I have a friend in NYC who owns guns, grew up in a rural area around lots of guns, and went to Albany to lobby for common sense gun reform with Moms Demand Action. There are a lot of centrist activists on this issue, because the "other" side is so disconnected from sanity that being moderate is seen as radical.

Peter Parker

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2018, 07:18:16 PM »
[I think you should go out and join one of these marches.  I've never met so many pleasant and hopeful people.  Angry?  Where?  Who?  The survivors?  sure...of course they're angry, their friends were murdered in front of their eyes.  But the people in the streets?  No.  hopeful and inspired by the courage of the students.
If you want to do something, why not be the person who tries to understand the other side rather than sitting on the sidelines and assuming you know what the rest of us think?  Talk to us.  Learn what we feel.  Try to see it from a different perspective.  That's what discussion and debate are about....not about being right.

I went to two Marches--I had only planned to go to one.  But as you pointed out, the positivity, courage, hopefulness, the fun, and the laughter was inspiring.  After all the negativity in the news, the tribal lines, and the spewing of hatred, it felt good to be surrounded by people of hope.   And when I saw my local "hunting" friends marching with a sign that read "Gun Owners for Common Sense Gun Control," I felt like maybe something can be done.

Thanks for lending your voice!

Just Joe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3158
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2018, 09:07:06 AM »
Here are some gun owners explaining why they support and attended the March for Our Lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cDnmkorwk

As a gun owner myself, I add my voice to theirs.

Ditto. Former gun toting military member as well.

TrudgingAlong

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 188
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2018, 02:46:24 PM »
Yep. We don't own a gun because kids in the house, but let our oldest learn to shoot when he had the opportunity. We mig buy one for range shooting sometime in the future when they grow up. Never been involved in gun control before now.

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2018, 07:16:34 AM »
Upped mine and the wife's NRA membership to Life yesterday.
Dropped a bit of extra into the NRA coffers as well.

Good for voicing you're political opinions and I shall voice mine as well.  :)

As far as the theory that Gun Manufacturers give to NRA who gives to canidates...  Well...
Hopefully CNN isn't too biased for anyone here...

I predict by the end of this year, NRA rolls will have expanded to 10 million people.  Maybe more.

(Edit to fix a broken link)

Yes that gets you to about 3% of the US population and .14% of the world population.  Yippee!  Go get 'em!  The tobacco industry had a lot more members and funding and see how that turned out.  Eventually things that make little sense get moved out.  If people would just get off their soap boxes they'd understand that there is gun ownership in other parts of the world without it being written in core documents of their nation and without fear mongering NRATV blathering on for hours on end about ridiculous scary scenarios that happen about as often as the percent of people in the NRA compare to the rest of humanity.  It's like my parents in Florida being convinced that they will be killed by someone driving the wrong way down the highway because it's on the news so much.  You can get anyone to believe anything by feeding them enough propaganda, but if all you feed yourself is NRA TV than the world is a very scary place.

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2018, 07:20:19 AM »
Taking our guns away is not going to stop mentally disturbed people from running amok. 

Are these the new zombies for the NRA crowd?

Forget The Walking Dead, NRA TV presents The Walking Mentally Disturbed.  Quick!  Grab your shotgun!


Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1978
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2018, 08:00:42 AM »
Upped mine and the wife's NRA membership to Life yesterday.
Dropped a bit of extra into the NRA coffers as well.

Good for voicing you're political opinions and I shall voice mine as well.  :)

As far as the theory that Gun Manufacturers give to NRA who gives to canidates...  Well...
Hopefully CNN isn't too biased for anyone here...

I predict by the end of this year, NRA rolls will have expanded to 10 million people.  Maybe more.

(Edit to fix a broken link)


A surprising amount of money is given to the NRA by individuals, but this article doesn't say that the NRA doesn't receive money from the industry.

1. The specified allocation of money. While industry donations can't go directly to campaign contributions, they are still money. If I have $100,000 to spend on a house and I inherit another $100,000 with the stipulation that I can't spend it on a car, I can use the inherited money on the house and buy whatever car I want with "my" money. Allocation of funds is barely an obstacle, moreso as the pools of money get larger.

2. The NRA Institute for Legislative Action is not required to disclose the names of donors.

3. Advertising. Payment to advertise may not count as donations but it is industry money. NRA publications (like most magazines these days) are as much a way to advertise products as they are to provide articles. This is clearly a mutually beneficial relationship.

4. Even if all of the NRA's funds came from individual donors, I don't want politicians being bought to represent a minority of the population because they have the money to pay them. That gets to the much bigger issue of campaign funding and contributions in general, but it certainly applies here.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14061
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2018, 08:02:58 AM »
Taking our guns away is not going to stop mentally disturbed people from running amok. 

Are these the new zombies for the NRA crowd?

Forget The Walking Dead, NRA TV presents The Walking Mentally Disturbed.  Quick!  Grab your shotgun!

Lol, I always enjoy that argument.
I live in a major city in Canada, I live in the neighborhood with the highest crime rate, with a rampant drug dealing presence, sex workers wandering the Main Street at all hours, and a very high population of addicts and mentally disturbed milling about. We’ve had a serial arsonist burn down several buildings within blocks of my home in the past year and a dude had his throat slit in broad daylight in front of the drug store around the corner not long ago.
We’ve only had a single shooting here in 2018 because there just aren’t many guns here and even then, the police are worried about the level of gun violence we’re seeing.

I have never ever been afraid of being shot here ever and would never think to buy a gun to feel safer. I did however follow all of the advice for minimizing my chances of having my house targeted for fire.

The only time I have ever felt genuinely afraid of being shot was when my ex and I were pulled over in the US by a state trooper who had seen us earlier at a gas station and circled our car three times with his hand over his gun and then followed us down the highway before pulling us over with his gun drawn.
We were in the states to pick up a puppy for my mom...

That makes sense.  Anyone can easily buy one without a background check, guns and bullets are cheap and simple to get in most places.  That must be terrifying for police officers, and I suspect that this atmosphere of pervasive fear leads to a lot of the problems between police and citizens that happen.

acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2018, 08:19:26 AM »
As usual, this entire backlash is against inanimate objects and their owners, instead of the actual bad guy.

TX has a program where educators can be (and are) armed. We don't have many school shootings. Attached is the sign outside Argyle HS, close to here. The school my own kids attend is protected by a teacher who has a Remington 870 12ga readily available and knows how to use it. One more way my lovely SAHM DW is awesome.

The solution of course remains: more guns in the right hands.

School shooters are cowards, bullies to the extreme. They have already decided to murder kids. 'Gun Free Zones' and other limitations on PROTECTING THE KIDS merely enable their behavior and are mind-bendingly stupid. Ever faced a bully? They respond very well to the threat of violence against their person.

People lobbying to keep guns out of schools are literally holding child safety hostage to their own ideology.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4414
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2018, 08:42:02 AM »
As usual, this entire backlash is against inanimate objects and their owners, instead of the actual bad guy.

TX has a program where educators can be (and are) armed. We don't have many school shootings. Attached is the sign outside Argyle HS, close to here. The school my own kids attend is protected by a teacher who has a Remington 870 12ga readily available and knows how to use it. One more way my lovely SAHM DW is awesome.

The solution of course remains: more guns in the right hands.

School shooters are cowards, bullies to the extreme. They have already decided to murder kids. 'Gun Free Zones' and other limitations on PROTECTING THE KIDS merely enable their behavior and are mind-bendingly stupid. Ever faced a bully? They respond very well to the threat of violence against their person.

People lobbying to keep guns out of schools are literally holding child safety hostage to their own ideology.

Lol

Nice histrionics with that last line.

Thing is, that sign is lovely bravado, but when you look at the bulk of recent school shootings (sad that I can write that phrase, isn't it?) it seems like most of the shooters see this as kind of a suicide mission. They don't intend to get out of there alive. They want to shoot as many people as they can before they go out in a blaze of glory. They are prey to the same kind of superhero fantasy as the people who put up these signs.


TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2018, 08:45:58 AM »
...

Shhhhh...  Don't mention that Texas has been doing it for 5 years and Utah for about 8 years with no problems whatsoever.  It breaks down the accidents argument.


Texas Example
Utah Example
Quote
The president of the 1.7 million-member American Federation of Teachers, Randi Weingarten, called arming teachers “one of the worst ideas I have heard in a series of really, really, really bad ideas.” Nevertheless, a tweeted offer by Butler County, Ohio, Sheriff Richard Jones to train local teachers to carry a concealed handgun garnered so much interest that he quickly capped the number at 300.

Texas Campus Carry (Colleges)
No issues with this one either.... 

(Edit to correct Utah number)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 08:51:52 AM by TexasRunner »

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1978
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2018, 08:47:30 AM »
As usual, this entire backlash is against inanimate objects and their owners, instead of the actual bad guy.

TX has a program where educators can be (and are) armed. We don't have many school shootings. Attached is the sign outside Argyle HS, close to here. The school my own kids attend is protected by a teacher who has a Remington 870 12ga readily available and knows how to use it. One more way my lovely SAHM DW is awesome.

The solution of course remains: more guns in the right hands.

School shooters are cowards, bullies to the extreme. They have already decided to murder kids. 'Gun Free Zones' and other limitations on PROTECTING THE KIDS merely enable their behavior and are mind-bendingly stupid. Ever faced a bully? They respond very well to the threat of violence against their person.

People lobbying to keep guns out of schools are literally holding child safety hostage to their own ideology.

Oh good, I was worried we weren't going to hear from you on this topic acroy. I always enjoy your strong opinions coupled with a lack of evidence and unquestioning confidence.

And of course more guns is the answer, why have we all been wasting our time with pages of debate about the pros and cons of arming teachers. A chicken in every pot and a Glock on every teacher. MAGA.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14061
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2018, 09:01:43 AM »
...

Shhhhh...  Don't mention that Texas has been doing it for 5 years and Utah for about 8 years with no problems whatsoever.  It breaks down the accidents argument.


Texas Example
Utah Example
Quote
The president of the 1.7 million-member American Federation of Teachers, Randi Weingarten, called arming teachers “one of the worst ideas I have heard in a series of really, really, really bad ideas.” Nevertheless, a tweeted offer by Butler County, Ohio, Sheriff Richard Jones to train local teachers to carry a concealed handgun garnered so much interest that he quickly capped the number at 300.

Texas Campus Carry (Colleges)
No issues with this one either.... 

(Edit to correct Utah number)

Texas college accidental discharge:
http://www.kxii.com/content/news/Bullet-fired-through-classroom-at-Grayson-College--469653223.html

Utah accidental discharge of firearm by elementary school teacher:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/utah-teacher-hurt-when-gun-accidently-shatters-toilet-n201256

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2018, 09:21:38 AM »
Texas college accidental discharge:
http://www.kxii.com/content/news/Bullet-fired-through-classroom-at-Grayson-College--469653223.html


Quote
We’re told that the box did not have a lock on it, and that the instructor later left the room, taking the training firearm with him.

“One of the students thought the instrument inside the box was the training instrument so she picked it up,” Brown said.

Would have happened with or without campus carry, as this was a licensed instructor legally allowed to carry before campus carry was enacted.  Campus carry does not permit openly carry or showing a gun.

Also, this guy was an idiot leaving a loaded gun outside of his possession.

But sure, try to find anecdotal evidence to prove any point.  I care about real statistics.



Utah accidental discharge of firearm by elementary school teacher:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/utah-teacher-hurt-when-gun-accidently-shatters-toilet-n201256

Understandable, as it was in a restroom which is, by nature, the only place a teacher should be handling their firearm instead of leaving it secured on their person.  I get how it happened...  But one out of thousands of teachers carrying for 5+ years hardly proves a point.  Actually, it proves that accidents are extremely rare, as evidenced by how rapidly and ferociously the news jumped on that story (if there were many such incidents, the news would be shouting it from the rooftops).

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1978
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2018, 09:23:59 AM »
As usual, this entire backlash is against inanimate objects and their owners, instead of the actual bad guy.

TX has a program where educators can be (and are) armed. We don't have many school shootings. Attached is the sign outside Argyle HS, close to here. The school my own kids attend is protected by a teacher who has a Remington 870 12ga readily available and knows how to use it. One more way my lovely SAHM DW is awesome.

The solution of course remains: more guns in the right hands.

School shooters are cowards, bullies to the extreme. They have already decided to murder kids. 'Gun Free Zones' and other limitations on PROTECTING THE KIDS merely enable their behavior and are mind-bendingly stupid. Ever faced a bully? They respond very well to the threat of violence against their person.

People lobbying to keep guns out of schools are literally holding child safety hostage to their own ideology.

Lol

Nice histrionics with that last line.

Thing is, that sign is lovely bravado, but when you look at the bulk of recent school shootings (sad that I can write that phrase, isn't it?) it seems like most of the shooters see this as kind of a suicide mission. They don't intend to get out of there alive. They want to shoot as many people as they can before they go out in a blaze of glory. They are prey to the same kind of superhero fantasy as the people who put up these signs.

Thank you for responding to this unsarcastically, I couldn't help myself.

Yes, characterizing these shooters as bullies is definately oversimplifying. Most of what I've read regarding the history of mass shooters and the psychiatric analysis of them suggests that the most common motivation is that they are depressed and suicidal. They've already made the decision to end their life and they either want to be remembered or they're unable to follow through with suicide, much like suicide by cop if you're familiar with the term. This isn't really an argument against concealed carry in schools becasue I don't think acroy has made any real argument for it, just commenting on acroy's oversimplification of reality that makes the answers seem so obvious.

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2018, 09:39:46 AM »
As usual, this entire backlash is against inanimate objects and their owners, instead of the actual bad guy.

TX has a program where educators can be (and are) armed. We don't have many school shootings. Attached is the sign outside Argyle HS, close to here. The school my own kids attend is protected by a teacher who has a Remington 870 12ga readily available and knows how to use it. One more way my lovely SAHM DW is awesome.

The solution of course remains: more guns in the right hands.

School shooters are cowards, bullies to the extreme. They have already decided to murder kids. 'Gun Free Zones' and other limitations on PROTECTING THE KIDS merely enable their behavior and are mind-bendingly stupid. Ever faced a bully? They respond very well to the threat of violence against their person.

People lobbying to keep guns out of schools are literally holding child safety hostage to their own ideology.
OK, but the point these arguments fail to assess is you can still do whatever you want to arm the school and remove the capability of easily accessible guns for the average person who is not there protecting the kids in the school.  The second amendment is not needed to do what you want.  We just would need to create a process that allowed that "protection" to happen.

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2018, 09:42:46 AM »
Texas college accidental discharge:
http://www.kxii.com/content/news/Bullet-fired-through-classroom-at-Grayson-College--469653223.html


Quote
We’re told that the box did not have a lock on it, and that the instructor later left the room, taking the training firearm with him.

“One of the students thought the instrument inside the box was the training instrument so she picked it up,” Brown said.

Would have happened with or without campus carry, as this was a licensed instructor legally allowed to carry before campus carry was enacted.  Campus carry does not permit openly carry or showing a gun.

Also, this guy was an idiot leaving a loaded gun outside of his possession.

But sure, try to find anecdotal evidence to prove any point.  I care about real statistics.

Researchers are also finding links between right-to-carry laws–which require governments to issue concealed-carry permits to citizens who meet certain requirements–and spikes in firearms crime.   A 2017 National Bureau of Economic Research working paper estimates that 10 years after the adoption of right-to-carry laws, violent crime is 13% to 15% higher than it would have been without those policies.

Want to know why it's hard to find evidence ("real statistics")?  Read point #5

http://time.com/5209901/gun-violence-america-reduction/
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 09:45:10 AM by caracarn »

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2018, 09:50:18 AM »
Researchers are also finding links between right-to-carry laws–which require governments to issue concealed-carry permits to citizens who meet certain requirements–and spikes in firearms crime.   A 2017 National Bureau of Economic Research working paper estimates that 10 years after the adoption of right-to-carry laws, violent crime is 13% to 15% higher than it would have been without those policies.

Want to know why it's hard to find evidence ("real statistics")?  Read point #5

http://time.com/5209901/gun-violence-america-reduction/

Link to the actual study?

For a forum that mocks crystal-ball market analysis, "violent crime is 13% to 15% higher than it would have been..." is awfully crystal-ball-ee.

;)

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2018, 09:52:38 AM »
Researchers are also finding links between right-to-carry laws–which require governments to issue concealed-carry permits to citizens who meet certain requirements–and spikes in firearms crime.   A 2017 National Bureau of Economic Research working paper estimates that 10 years after the adoption of right-to-carry laws, violent crime is 13% to 15% higher than it would have been without those policies.

Want to know why it's hard to find evidence ("real statistics")?  Read point #5

http://time.com/5209901/gun-violence-america-reduction/

Link to the actual study?

For a forum that mocks crystal-ball market analysis, "violent crime is 13% to 15% higher than it would have been..." is awfully crystal-ball-ee.

;)
I didn't write the article.  If I find a link I'll post it.  For a guy who claims he wants to actually understand but won't take the effort to find it for himself.

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2018, 09:55:22 AM »
Researchers are also finding links between right-to-carry laws–which require governments to issue concealed-carry permits to citizens who meet certain requirements–and spikes in firearms crime.   A 2017 National Bureau of Economic Research working paper estimates that 10 years after the adoption of right-to-carry laws, violent crime is 13% to 15% higher than it would have been without those policies.

Want to know why it's hard to find evidence ("real statistics")?  Read point #5

http://time.com/5209901/gun-violence-america-reduction/

Link to the actual study?

For a forum that mocks crystal-ball market analysis, "violent crime is 13% to 15% higher than it would have been..." is awfully crystal-ball-ee.

;)
Here you go buddy.  Took about 15 seconds of work to find.

http://nber.org/papers/w23510

You do have to pay $5 if you care to understand the details.  I'm not going to pay that for you.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14061
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2018, 10:31:15 AM »
Texas college accidental discharge:
http://www.kxii.com/content/news/Bullet-fired-through-classroom-at-Grayson-College--469653223.html


Quote
We’re told that the box did not have a lock on it, and that the instructor later left the room, taking the training firearm with him.

“One of the students thought the instrument inside the box was the training instrument so she picked it up,” Brown said.

Would have happened with or without campus carry, as this was a licensed instructor legally allowed to carry before campus carry was enacted.  Campus carry does not permit openly carry or showing a gun.

Also, this guy was an idiot leaving a loaded gun outside of his possession.

But sure, try to find anecdotal evidence to prove any point.  I care about real statistics.



Utah accidental discharge of firearm by elementary school teacher:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/utah-teacher-hurt-when-gun-accidently-shatters-toilet-n201256

Understandable, as it was in a restroom which is, by nature, the only place a teacher should be handling their firearm instead of leaving it secured on their person.  I get how it happened...  But one out of thousands of teachers carrying for 5+ years hardly proves a point.  Actually, it proves that accidents are extremely rare, as evidenced by how rapidly and ferociously the news jumped on that story (if there were many such incidents, the news would be shouting it from the rooftops).

I didn't comment on either accidental firearm discharge in a school.  I was just pointing out that your comment:

Quote
Shhhhh...  Don't mention that Texas has been doing it for 5 years and Utah for about 8 years with no problems whatsoever.

doesn't stand up to 5 seconds of googling.

BlueHouse

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3152
  • Location: WDC
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2018, 10:41:47 AM »
Serious question here: 
Back when the Republican Softball team was shot up, the immediate Republican response was that DC should have reciprocal carry laws with other states and that they should allow open carry (everywhere except on Federal land of course, because the Capitol building needs to be secure).  But the shooting was in Alexandria VA.  Why weren't these guys wearing their guns on the baseball uniforms?  How would open carry or  relaxed gun laws have helped? 

Not-so-serious question:  Am I supposed to wear a holster when I go swimming too? 

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2018, 10:55:37 AM »
Serious question here: 
Back when the Republican Softball team was shot up, the immediate Republican response was that DC should have reciprocal carry laws with other states and that they should allow open carry (everywhere except on Federal land of course, because the Capitol building needs to be secure).  But the shooting was in Alexandria VA.  Why weren't these guys wearing their guns on the baseball uniforms?  How would open carry or  relaxed gun laws have helped? 

Not-so-serious question:  Am I supposed to wear a holster when I go swimming too?

Considering they (presumably) came directly out of DC and there is no "Castle Law" (IE- no guns in your car), they would have been illegally transporting their firearms.  Most who have CCW licenses most likely leave the gun at home when they go to DC as they can't have it or use it in any meaningful way without risking getting arrested.

They wouldn't have had it on while on the field, sure, but in a bag or close by while on the benches could have helped.

Or do you think guns magically re-appear when you cross state lines after staying in DC?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14061
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2018, 11:00:27 AM »
My understanding (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), but the latest NRA/Republican pro-gun bill passed allows concealed carry across state lines doesn't it?

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/07/569025720/house-passes-bill-to-allow-concealed-carry-across-state-lines

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #87 on: March 28, 2018, 11:03:15 AM »
My understanding (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), but the latest NRA/Republican pro-gun bill passed allows concealed carry across state lines doesn't it?

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/07/569025720/house-passes-bill-to-allow-concealed-carry-across-state-lines

Yes but it has to go through he Senate and the POTUS to become law.

BlueHouse's comment is regarding a past event that can be read about here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #88 on: March 28, 2018, 11:21:40 AM »
Serious question here: 
Back when the Republican Softball team was shot up, the immediate Republican response was that DC should have reciprocal carry laws with other states and that they should allow open carry (everywhere except on Federal land of course, because the Capitol building needs to be secure).  But the shooting was in Alexandria VA.  Why weren't these guys wearing their guns on the baseball uniforms?  How would open carry or  relaxed gun laws have helped? 

Not-so-serious question:  Am I supposed to wear a holster when I go swimming too?

Considering they (presumably) came directly out of DC and there is no "Castle Law" (IE- no guns in your car), they would have been illegally transporting their firearms.  Most who have CCW licenses most likely leave the gun at home when they go to DC as they can't have it or use it in any meaningful way without risking getting arrested.

They wouldn't have had it on while on the field, sure, but in a bag or close by while on the benches could have helped.

Or do you think guns magically re-appear when you cross state lines after staying in DC?

Edit to add:  I'm glad you made this comment because I hadn't scrubbed up on DC local laws in a while.  It appears that DC does now issue licenses due to Heller and does allow firearms through a fairly stringent licensing process (just to own); BUT It appears there is no permitting process for someone who is not a DC resident.  In other words, to lawfully obtain, store or carry in your place of residence, you have to be a DC resident.  To get a CHL (or equivalent) you have to be a DC resident.

I'm betting (among other things) their constituents may not look favorably on their representative no longer being a "resident" of the home area.  Not to mention there are probably outdated crappy election laws out there that require no external residence status or something similar.

I can see several reasons they wouldn't be able to carry or possess within DC. 

Also interesting:  It appears the counter-barrage of gunfire from the capitol police who were present (and there were only 4 the way I read it) was able to deter the gunman until more LEOs could arrive.  In other words, 4 people legally carrying guns stopped a mass shooter who had the advantages of (1) a rifle, (2) position, (3) cover (presumably), and (4) mental preparation.  It is reasonable to assume that had the capitol police not been there but, lets say 8 representatives did posses their firearms and could access them, the result would have been similar.  If no capitol police had been there and no representatives had their firearm, the deaths probably would have stacked up quickly...

Any opinions on that?

Just Joe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3158
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #89 on: March 28, 2018, 11:27:33 AM »
Serious question here: 
Back when the Republican Softball team was shot up, the immediate Republican response was that DC should have reciprocal carry laws with other states and that they should allow open carry (everywhere except on Federal land of course, because the Capitol building needs to be secure).  But the shooting was in Alexandria VA.  Why weren't these guys wearing their guns on the baseball uniforms?  How would open carry or  relaxed gun laws have helped? 

Not-so-serious question:  Am I supposed to wear a holster when I go swimming too?

Wouldn't the Republican softball team travel with some sort of armed security? If so, then their weapons did not deter the shooter...
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 11:29:06 AM by Just Joe »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14061
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #90 on: March 28, 2018, 11:27:54 AM »
Also interesting:  It appears the counter-barrage of gunfire from the capitol police who were present (and there were only 4 the way I read it) was able to deter the gunman until more LEOs could arrive.  In other words, 4 people legally carrying guns stopped a mass shooter who had the advantages of (1) a rifle, (2) position, (3) cover (presumably), and (4) mental preparation.  It is reasonable to assume that had the capitol police not been there but, lets say 8 representatives did posses their firearms and could access them, the result would have been similar.  If no capitol police had been there and no representatives had their firearm, the deaths probably would have stacked up quickly...

Any opinions on that?

Yeah.  You believe that Capitol police have completely useless training?  Or at least so useless that they are no more effective at stopping a gunman than some random members of congress who own guns?  That's what your 'reasonable assumption' seems to stem from.

TrudgingAlong

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 188
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #91 on: March 28, 2018, 11:30:31 AM »
If random people carrying guns is supposed to be better than armed police, we really need to beef up our LEO training....

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #92 on: March 28, 2018, 11:44:22 AM »
If random people carrying guns is supposed to be better than armed police, we really need to beef up our LEO training....
No the whole pro-gun viewpoint is not based on that being better.  It is the fact that not knowing who might have one acts as a deterrent through fear and intimidation.  Real solid position and why I find it totally contrary to any rational viewpoint I care to hold.  Living in a society that is "safe" because we are all afraid of each other sounds really sucky.

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #93 on: March 28, 2018, 11:50:26 AM »
Also interesting:  It appears the counter-barrage of gunfire from the capitol police who were present (and there were only 4 the way I read it) was able to deter the gunman until more LEOs could arrive.  In other words, 4 people legally carrying guns stopped a mass shooter who had the advantages of (1) a rifle, (2) position, (3) cover (presumably), and (4) mental preparation.  It is reasonable to assume that had the capitol police not been there but, lets say 8 representatives did posses their firearms and could access them, the result would have been similar.  If no capitol police had been there and no representatives had their firearm, the deaths probably would have stacked up quickly...

Any opinions on that?

Yeah.  You believe that Capitol police have completely useless training?  Or at least so useless that they are no more effective at stopping a gunman than some random members of congress who own guns?  That's what your 'reasonable assumption' seems to stem from.

Wow...  That straw man came up fast.

No, I'm saying that if (8) reps had been able to have their firearms nearby, then maybe their suppressive fire would have been similar to the (4) Capitol Police that were present.  Namely (8) representatives that would have not been on the field and as such could have gotten to their firearms very quickly.  As in, the numbers would have helped balance out the training.  Considering the goal at that point in time was suppressive fire until more assistance could arrive, it is feasible that more firearms (lets say 8) would have benefited a lack of training the LEOs go through.

Serious question here: 
Back when the Republican Softball team was shot up, the immediate Republican response was that DC should have reciprocal carry laws with other states and that they should allow open carry (everywhere except on Federal land of course, because the Capitol building needs to be secure).  But the shooting was in Alexandria VA.  Why weren't these guys wearing their guns on the baseball uniforms?  How would open carry or  relaxed gun laws have helped? 

Not-so-serious question:  Am I supposed to wear a holster when I go swimming too?

Wouldn't the Republican softball team travel with some sort of armed security? If so, then their weapons did not deter the shooter...

Actually, no.  The only reason they had capitol police on site is because the Majority Whip (leadership position in Congress) was present at the practice.  Rank and file representatives do not get security details.  As an example, the nearby Democratic practice did not have capitol police on site and could have been much worse as well.

It is quite possible that the shooter was unaware that security would be present.  Logically speaking, I wouldn't expect LEO's armed with pistols to put up such a good defense against a rifle and some distance, but it appears he was rather close to the field as opposed to using distance as a tactical advantage.  Kuddos to the capitol police for responding so well.

It still doesn't change my point that armed resistance to a mass shooter saved lives and we were lucky that capitol police were already on site and responded so well, since the representatives appear to have been disarmed by DC laws.


BlueHouse

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3152
  • Location: WDC
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #94 on: March 28, 2018, 11:53:11 AM »
First, I just want to correct the statement about the fairly stringent licensing process:  If you're referring to the registration process, it's extremely easy to register a firearm in Dc.  I've done it 3 times now, most recently a week ago.  The process is:  Fill out a form.  Provide a serial number, make, model.  Pay $13.00.  That's it.  When I registered the first time, I did have to be fingerprinted and they do a routine background check, but they keep those on file and didn't bother looking again 2 or 3 years after I registered the first one.  I don't know if you consider that stringent, but it took me about 8 minutes total, so I thought it was pretty easy.

Second, members of Congress ARE allowed to keep loaded firearms in their offices, but they have to unload if they're walking around on the capitol grounds.  They can also transport over to Virginia with rules similar to any state if you don't have a carry permit.  Unload and secure it until you get to your destination. 

Finally, many members of Congress (most Republicans) have their local residence in Virginia (it's so much more red than DC).  So they may have been coming directly from home to the ballfield, in which case, they wouldn't have even had to secure their guns.  It could have been on the passenger seat or the dashboard or in a holster.  Mo Brooks, who repeatedly brags about his concealed weapons permits, did not have his gun on him.  Why not?

Bottom line:  I'm not buying that there was any restriction for any of these guys to have their weapons on them.  I think it was just a matter of practicality:  who wants to carry a gun on a baseball uniform?  Or a school trip?  Or in your Sunday best to church?  Or on a day to school?  or to a concert?  Or the shopping mall?  What I'm saying is:  why should everyone have to be armed to protect against a rare-event when a gun-nut goes crazy and shoots?  Why not just keep guns out of the hands of nuts?

As for the Capitol Police taking down the gunman, that's their job.  I'd much rather have fully trained, on-duty police protecting us from a lone gunman than a bunch of octogenarian politicians shooting around thinking they are Rambo.   

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #95 on: March 28, 2018, 11:56:37 AM »
If random people carrying guns is supposed to be better than armed police, we really need to beef up our LEO training....
No the whole pro-gun viewpoint is not based on that being better.  It is the fact that not knowing who might have one acts as a deterrent through fear and intimidation.  Real solid position and why I find it totally contrary to any rational viewpoint I care to hold.  Living in a society that is "safe" because we are all afraid of each other sounds really sucky.

Texas Firearm Ownership Rate:  35,700 per 100,000
Texas Violent Crime Rate:  433.7 per 100,000
California Firearm Ownership Rate: 20,100 per 100,000
California Violent Crime Rate: 444 per 100,000


I'll stay in Texas, thank you.

Sources:
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/34/
http://www.dps.texas.gov/crimereports/16/executiveSummary.pdf
http://www.ppic.org/publication/crime-trends-in-california/
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 08:53:13 PM by TexasRunner »

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #96 on: March 28, 2018, 12:11:55 PM »
First, I just want to correct the statement about the fairly stringent licensing process:  If you're referring to the registration process, it's extremely easy to register a firearm in Dc.  I've done it 3 times now, most recently a week ago.  The process is:  Fill out a form.  Provide a serial number, make, model.  Pay $13.00.  That's it.  When I registered the first time, I did have to be fingerprinted and they do a routine background check, but they keep those on file and didn't bother looking again 2 or 3 years after I registered the first one.  I don't know if you consider that stringent, but it took me about 8 minutes total, so I thought it was pretty easy.
 

Good to know, but what about non-residents?  That is the point of reciprocal carry.

Second, members of Congress ARE allowed to keep loaded firearms in their offices, but they have to unload if they're walking around on the capitol grounds.  They can also transport over to Virginia with rules similar to any state if you don't have a carry permit.  Unload and secure it until you get to your destination. 
 

Info on this?  I was unaware of that being legal.  And considering 'secure it' means a lockbox for the gun and another for ammo, all in the trunk, I could see how it would be a PITA.

Finally, many members of Congress (most Republicans) have their local residence in Virginia (it's so much more red than DC).  So they may have been coming directly from home to the ballfield, in which case, they wouldn't have even had to secure their guns.  It could have been on the passenger seat or the dashboard or in a holster.  Mo Brooks, who repeatedly brags about his concealed weapons permits, did not have his gun on him.  Why not?
 

Good question.  If they choose to not carry, that is their choice, but the call for reciprocal carry to me indicates that the lack of legal carry for them in DC had at least some impact in them not having their firearms on them.  Another what-if is had the practice been in DC as opposed to Virginia? 

Sure its possible (and probable) that the call for reciprocity was a political move at a opportune time (just like both sides have done for decades, including more recently with Florida), but it doesn't nullify the discussion.

Bottom line:  I'm not buying that there was any restriction for any of these guys to have their weapons on them.  I think it was just a matter of practicality:  who wants to carry a gun on a baseball uniform? 
 
As I already said, in the bag would be fine, not needed on the field.

Or a school trip?
 
Illegal in basically all states

  Or in your Sunday best to church? 
 
Myself and about 35 other men carry every Sunday.

Or on a day to school? 
 
Every day that I went to college since campus carry and I had my permit.

or to a concert? 
 
Typically illegal in Texas, but if not I'm carrying.

Or the shopping mall?
 
Every time.

The point is not if someone chooses not too, its that if you have the legal right to do so, that right cannot be infringed.


What I'm saying is:  why should everyone have to be armed to protect against a rare-event when a gun-nut goes crazy and shoots?  Why not just keep guns out of the hands of nuts?
Careful who you are calling a gun nut...  The guy was a Bernie supporter after all.

As for the Capitol Police taking down the gunman, that's their job.  I'd much rather have fully trained, on-duty police protecting us from a lone gunman than a bunch of octogenarian politicians shooting around thinking they are Rambo.
Me too, but if the police aren't there I believe the representatives have the inherent right to self protection as well.

acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #97 on: March 28, 2018, 12:47:44 PM »
People lobbying to keep guns out of schools are literally holding child safety hostage to their own ideology.
And of course more guns is the answer, why have we all been wasting our time with pages of debate about the pros and cons of arming teachers. A chicken in every pot and a Glock on every teacher. MAGA.

Good, I'm glad you get it. You may be intending snark, but you state the truth. Debate is a waste of time. All valuable people and things in this world, with the sick exception of our children, are protected by guns. If on Thursday March 29th 2018 every teacher started carrying a Glock to school and knew how to use it, today March 28th 2018 would have been the last opportunity for a school mass murder. That's it, done, gone, finis, nada, zip, never happening again.

If random people carrying guns is supposed to be better than armed police, we really need to beef up our LEO training....
Think about what you just said. If you intend to commit harm, which would you rather:
- armed good guys only in easily distinguishable uniforms driving flashy cars
- armed good guys scattered amongst the citizenry, no way to tell who is ready to pop you in the face and who is not

Common misconception is that LEOs protect. Bullshit. They react. The crime is in process or complete when 911 is called. The Thin Blue Line uses the phrase 'Protect and Serve' to keep the sheep feeling safe. In reality they 'Clean Up and Chase the Baddie'. Not to disparage the LEOs by any means, but this is the truth, and they will tell you so.

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4061
  • Location: On my bike
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #98 on: March 28, 2018, 01:22:20 PM »
How brainwashed do you have to be to think that the answer to the problem of too much gun violence is more guns?  It's probably the most ridiculous assertion that I can think of.  Anyone who thinks arming teachers (against their own wishes, mind you) will actually decrease school violence has lost all manner of common sense. 

Quote
just 1 in 5 teachers agreed that arming teachers and staff members would make schools safer.

When 80% of teachers think this is a bad idea and won't make schools safer, maybe it's time for you to listen to them.

Just Joe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3158
Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #99 on: March 28, 2018, 02:52:02 PM »
Good, I'm glad you get it. You may be intending snark, but you state the truth. Debate is a waste of time. All valuable people and things in this world, with the sick exception of our children, are protected by guns. If on Thursday March 29th 2018 every teacher started carrying a Glock to school and knew how to use it, today March 28th 2018 would have been the last opportunity for a school mass murder. That's it, done, gone, finis, nada, zip, never happening again.

All except the "death by cops" folks who still want to go out in a blaze of gunfire. These types of folks like to shoot it out with cops every once in a while don't they? They plan to die so they don't care who is armed as long as they, the bad guy gets to pop off a few rounds / murder a few people before they the bad guy dies. Personally I categorize most if not all school shooters as this type. They have to know that their chance of going to jail instead of the morgue is pretty small.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 02:53:56 PM by Just Joe »