Author Topic: March For Our Lives 3/24/18  (Read 34833 times)

Kris

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #200 on: April 01, 2018, 05:58:38 PM »
Does muzzle velocity matter when shooting young adults with no body armor at an outdoor concert from far range?

Probably.

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #201 on: April 01, 2018, 06:11:04 PM »
What is the appropriate solution to control the use of firearms that have the muzzle velocity capable enough of inflicting permanent disfigurement and fatal wounds at both close and far range?

MasterStache

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #202 on: April 01, 2018, 07:24:28 PM »
Does muzzle velocity matter when shooting young adults with no body armor at an outdoor concert from far range?

Yes! Probably would not have been very effective trying to inflict mass casualties from a relatively far distance with a hand gun.

TexasRunner

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #203 on: April 01, 2018, 09:43:20 PM »
What is the appropriate solution to control the use of firearms that have the muzzle velocity capable enough of inflicting permanent disfigurement and fatal wounds at both close and far range?

Essentially, A complete ban on all rifles capable of hunting.


UT Austin Shooter, 1966

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting


Kennedy Shooter, 1963

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy


Beyond that, most mass shootings don't happen with "Assault Rifles", or even happen with rifles at all...  But feel free to ignore the facts.
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0057.htm

MasterStache

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #204 on: April 02, 2018, 04:55:37 AM »
Beyond that, most mass shootings don't happen with "Assault Rifles", or even happen with rifles at all...  But feel free to ignore the facts.
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0057.htm

Chill dude. You can point out facts and leave it at that. As long as we have guns and the gun culture remains the same in the US, there will be mass shootings. There is nothing wrong with trying to limit the damage and/or increase survivability. It's also much easier to engage a mass shooter at close range than at long range (like the Vegas shooter). 

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #205 on: April 02, 2018, 05:53:49 AM »
If an assailant plans a mass shooting, knowing muzzle velocity and range are a factor, what is the appropriate solution for preventing them from using a rifle for longer distances or a handgun (or rifle) for shorter distances?

TexasRunner

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #206 on: April 02, 2018, 07:47:08 AM »
If an assailant plans a mass shooting, knowing muzzle velocity and range are a factor, what is the appropriate solution for preventing them from using a rifle for longer distances or a handgun (or rifle) for shorter distances?

Honestly, a better NCIS system with the ability to submit mental health / domestic violence AND due process for appealing those submittals.

That would be a great start that everyone can get on board with.

I would also approve of universal background checks provided they are fast and low cost, and they don't build a registry.

GuitarStv

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #207 on: April 02, 2018, 08:08:25 AM »
I don't entirely understand universal background checks without a registry.  How exactly does one enforce universal background checks if there's no record of who owns what gun?

Here's a scenario:
- Universal background checks are mandated by law.
- Person A sells a gun to person B.
- Person B turns out to be a criminal, and gets caught with the gun.
- Person A is questioned by police.
- Person A says that they sold the gun to someone who passed the background check.
- The police can't do anything, because they can't refute what he just said.

If the person who sells the gun is also required by law to keep a record of who they sold it to that would fix the problem.  But if so, what happens if they lose their record (say it's burned in a fire, lost in a flood, or just misplaced)?

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #208 on: April 02, 2018, 08:20:36 AM »
Can we expect the current President to veto or pass gun control legislation if gun conrol advocates sweep the house this fall?  And if a Keith Ellison Victory happens in 2020, with a Democrat controlled congress, can we expect a reform bill to be passed unlike 08-09 when they had a large majority?

Midwest

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #209 on: April 02, 2018, 08:25:26 AM »
Can we expect the current President to veto or pass gun control legislation if gun conrol advocates sweep the house this fall?  And if a Keith Ellison Victory happens in 2020, with a Democrat controlled congress, can we expect a reform bill to be passed unlike 08-09 when they had a large majority?

Are the Democrats really thinking of running Keith Ellison for President? 

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #210 on: April 02, 2018, 08:33:05 AM »

I don't entirely understand universal background checks without a registry.  How exactly does one enforce universal background checks if there's no record of who owns what gun?

Here's a scenario:
- Universal background checks are mandated by law.
- Person A sells a gun to person B.
- Person B turns out to be a criminal, and gets caught with the gun.
- Person A is questioned by police.
- Person A says that they sold the gun to someone who passed the background check.
- The police can't do anything, because they can't refute what he just said.

If the person who sells the gun is also required by law to keep a record of who they sold it to that would fix the problem.  But if so, what happens if they lose their record (say it's burned in a fire, lost in a flood, or just misplaced)?

What if Person A sells the gun to person B and reports it stolen?

GuitarStv

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #211 on: April 02, 2018, 08:38:13 AM »

I don't entirely understand universal background checks without a registry.  How exactly does one enforce universal background checks if there's no record of who owns what gun?

Here's a scenario:
- Universal background checks are mandated by law.
- Person A sells a gun to person B.
- Person B turns out to be a criminal, and gets caught with the gun.
- Person A is questioned by police.
- Person A says that they sold the gun to someone who passed the background check.
- The police can't do anything, because they can't refute what he just said.

If the person who sells the gun is also required by law to keep a record of who they sold it to that would fix the problem.  But if so, what happens if they lose their record (say it's burned in a fire, lost in a flood, or just misplaced)?

What if Person A sells the gun to person B and reports it stolen?

There's nothing to prevent that.  And without a registry there's no way for the police to prevent them from doing it over and over again, because it's extremely difficult to prove.

wenchsenior

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #212 on: April 02, 2018, 08:46:51 AM »
Can we expect the current President to veto or pass gun control legislation if gun conrol advocates sweep the house this fall?  And if a Keith Ellison Victory happens in 2020, with a Democrat controlled congress, can we expect a reform bill to be passed unlike 08-09 when they had a large majority?

Are the Democrats really thinking of running Keith Ellison for President?

Probably.  They are strategy-impaired.

Midwest

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #213 on: April 02, 2018, 08:51:55 AM »
Can we expect the current President to veto or pass gun control legislation if gun conrol advocates sweep the house this fall?  And if a Keith Ellison Victory happens in 2020, with a Democrat controlled congress, can we expect a reform bill to be passed unlike 08-09 when they had a large majority?

Are the Democrats really thinking of running Keith Ellison for President?

Probably.  They are strategy-impaired.

Wow.  Trump beat Hillary because she was an awful candidate so we'll find a worse one? 

PS - I'm not trying to start an argument on Ellison, just genuinely surprised the Democrats might run him.  If my assessment of him is wrong, so be it. 

wenchsenior

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #214 on: April 02, 2018, 08:57:32 AM »
Can we expect the current President to veto or pass gun control legislation if gun conrol advocates sweep the house this fall?  And if a Keith Ellison Victory happens in 2020, with a Democrat controlled congress, can we expect a reform bill to be passed unlike 08-09 when they had a large majority?

Are the Democrats really thinking of running Keith Ellison for President?

Probably.  They are strategy-impaired.

Wow.  Trump beat Hillary because she was an awful candidate so we'll find a worse one? 

PS - I'm not trying to start an argument on Ellison, just genuinely surprised the Democrats might run him.  If my assessment of him is wrong, so be it.

I was actually saying that as someone who likes Ellison pretty well.  But he's Muslim, and we are a religiously bigoted country.  Even a lot of black Dems wouldn't vote for him.

Poundwise

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #215 on: April 02, 2018, 09:22:47 AM »
A question that I would like to know the answer to (but that you don't have to answer, of course), are the reasons why specifically every gun owner here feels that they need a gun or want a gun.  I sincerely would like to know, and I will try not to use this info "against" you in this debate, though I may question your reasons.

For instance,
- did you get your gun(s) for protection, whom are you protecting, and who from? [ ...]
- do you simply enjoy guns for their design and/or history? Have you spent a lot of money (for you) on guns?
- are they part of your job, or were they part of your job at one time?
- is gun ownership a part of your family culture?

And I guess a question to consider is
- how do you think specific proposed gun regulations would impact you?
[...]

Thanks, if you choose to answer any of these questions.


-How would increased regulations affect you?

Generally they’re an annoyance, but thy could also be used against me to arrest me on a technicality. Arbitrarily make some aspect of my guns illegal, make me a technical offender. Many gun laws are nonsensical or ambiguous and a bully cop could give me a hard time. For instance, the rules about transporting guns are that it not be readily accessible to you in a car. It’s understood that means locked in a trunk. Well, what if you have an SUV or station wagon without a separate trunk?  Is it being in the way back inaccessible enough?  Another one, a gun must be transported unloaded with the ammo stored separately from the weapon. My range bag has a zippered main compartment where the gun goes, and a separate zippered compartment for magazines. Is that considered “stored separately”?  That’s the kind of shit gun owners fear, some power hungry cop looking to give me a hard time on a technicality.

I also have a really hard time with rules that are arbitrary or poorly thought out. “Cooling off” periods are my favorite whipping boy. In IL to purchase a firearm I need to get a FOID. That takes a couple months. And then once I get my FOID I need to wait another 72 hours from purchase to pickup to get my gun?  Come on, I just waited 2 months!  Also, I already have guns. Why does waiting 72 hours to get my 4th, 5th, 6th gun do anyone any good? 

I could go on and on, but the point is that generally more laws do very little to stop criminal but are a big PITA for law abiding citizens, which makes them worthless in my eyes.

Thanks so much, Chris. A lot of food for thought here.  Seems like the devil is really in the details here.  It sounds like there needs to be clear guidelines on what storage is considered adequate, and it also sounds like there should be research done on what kind of wait is actually effective. There may be already, I just don't know.

How often do you have to get your FOID? Presumably if you have a gun already, you have a FOID already, so you just have a 3 day wait which is not too bad... it's not over 2 months for every single weapon, is it? And it probably saves money... less buyer's remorse!  If the 72 hour wait is associated with drops in gun violence, it seems like a small sacrifice for somebody else's life or health (remember every violent death or hospitalization creates a strain on society in some way).  But if there turns out to be no drop in gun crime, it seems like the extra wait could go.

In NY, one of the bills under consideration is ERPO (Extreme Risk Protection Order) and also another one that closes background loophole checks. These sound good to me. CT got ERPOs and I have heard that the suicide rate went down there.

There is not going to be any "magic bullet" regulation that will knock out all gun violence or even just good old violence in the U.S.  But it's a clear problem in our country, and we need to try a lot of different things and do the research to see if they can REDUCE lethal or crippling violence in the US; if not, let the regulation expire. Speaking of expired regulation, it sounds like parts of the 1994 "assaults weapons ban" was associated with a drop in the number of gun massacre incidents and deaths, and its expiration was associated in the rise of same.  We should consider reinstating some version of it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/02/15/its-time-to-bring-back-the-assault-weapons-ban-gun-violence-experts-say

Yes, correlation is not necessarily causation, the dip in deaths and attacks could be due to chance or some other factor, but correlation is really the best tool that we humans have for decision making.

RetiredAt63

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #216 on: April 02, 2018, 04:34:47 PM »

I was actually saying that as someone who likes Ellison pretty well.  But he's Muslim, and we are a religiously bigoted country.  Even a lot of black Dems wouldn't vote for him.

Shades JFK's election - Roman Catholic candidate, the Pope would run the country.

libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #217 on: April 07, 2018, 03:31:54 AM »
I've read a few articles recently by doctors who have operated on victims of AR-15 and other ASSAULT RIFLES.  The main injuries seem to be from the velocity of the bullets, and the cavitation caused once the bullets strike a body/organs.  They rip organs apart making repair much more difficult than if a moving object simply sliced through the body.  So I call BS on "no more killing capacity"
The damage done is NOT based on the weapon, but the round used.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5424197/Radiologist-reveals-effects-AR-15-bullets-human-body.html

So this doctor, like many others, doesn't know what they are talking about? Seems to be a common theme with you.

She either doesn't know what she is talking about, or is being intentionally misleading.  I should point out that getting an MD does not make one an expert on weapons.  She may have seen nasty wounds that were fired by an AR-15 and ASSUMED all AR-15s cause that kind of damage, which is not necessarily the case.  Let me explain.

An AR-15 is capable of firing a .556 NATO military round (high velocity, and "tumbles" in the body, making it a pretty lethal round, though not the worst) or it can fire a common .22 plinking round (the round most kids use when they first learn to shoot at cans or bottles.  A round with a very low lethality).

I should also point out that MANY other rifles that don't look as "scary" as the AR-15 are capable of firing that high velocity military round.

The point is, the AR-15 can fire a highly lethal round, or a far less lethal round.

Non "assault style" rifles that can fire the same lethal round I mentioned before as well (or they can fire less lethal rounds).

Why is this important?  Because you have to know what you are talking about to pass a law.

If you ban all AR-15s, the next shooter can just use a Ruger 10-22 or Mini-14.  Rather bland looking weapons, that are perfectly capable of firing highly lethal rounds just as fast as an AR-15.  As are many other semi-autos that aren't "assault style."

Note that the doctor seemed to be obsessing about how the rounds used in Florida were more lethal than a HANDGUN.  She's more or less right there- the 5.56 is far higher velocity than typical handgun rounds (9 mm, .38, etc).  Most handguns do not fire high velocity rounds (and they are far less accurate).  But almost any rifle can- even ancient bolt action rifles.  Note that there are specialized handgun rounds that can do just as much damage, not because of their velocity, but because the bullets are designed to fragment inside the body, causing massive damage.   

So a ban on "assault style" rifles would be pretty pointless, because any rifle can do the same kind of internal damage she was talking about, as can handguns, given the proper ammunition selection.

I won't even get into the kind of damage one could do with a semi-auto shotgun at close quarters.  These things can have up to 23 rounds, fire ALL of them in less than 4 seconds, and in close quarters are far more devastating than an AR-15.

So are we gonna ban shotguns as well?




libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #218 on: April 07, 2018, 03:41:00 AM »
I've read a few articles recently by doctors who have operated on victims of AR-15 and other ASSAULT RIFLES.  The main injuries seem to be from the velocity of the bullets, and the cavitation caused once the bullets strike a body/organs.  They rip organs apart making repair much more difficult than if a moving object simply sliced through the body.  So I call BS on "no more killing capacity"
The damage done is NOT based on the weapon, but the round used.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5424197/Radiologist-reveals-effects-AR-15-bullets-human-body.html

So this doctor, like many others, doesn't know what they are talking about? Seems to be a common theme with you.

While it is a common theme with him, on this I have to side with our Libertarian friend.  The power of a round comes from the design of the ammunition, not really the weapon it's fired from.  If there's more gun powder packed into the bullet, and the bullet is physically larger, it tends to do more damage.

Handguns typically fire smaller and lower powered powered rounds.  Many hunting guns are capable of much higher powered fire (to put down a large animal like a moose safely you need a powerful round).  The AR15 is certainly not alone in being able to fire powerful rounds.

The AR15 is more deadly than many more traditional style hunting rifle because of things like the flash suppressor, the collapsible stock, the pistol grip, etc.  I think that the argument might also be made that there's little need for a large caliber semi-automatic rifle when hunting big game (I hunted moose for years with friends using a bolt action 30-06).  If you feel the need to spray an animal with bullets while hunting, you might want to take a step back and double check that you know what you're doing.

Yup, there are a lot of factors just in the ammunition alone.  Get a few gun experts in a room, and they can argue all day about what the most effective close range weapon is (note:  many of them will NOT choose the AR-15).  The velocity of the round (e.g. how much propellant is used), the caliber of the round, and perhaps most important, the type of bullet (the part that actually hits the body) used- even relatively low velocity rounds can be highly lethal with what is often termed "home defense" rounds that break up and do massive internal damage- designed to stop (kill) an intruder in his tracks.

FWIW, despite shooting for 40-years, and serving many years in the Army, I do NOT consider myself an expert on guns.  There are plenty of military folks, and even a lot of civilians, who know far more than I do, especially about more modern weapons and rounds.  But I think I know enough to intelligently discuss the subject.

libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #219 on: April 07, 2018, 03:48:41 AM »
I've read a few articles recently by doctors who have operated on victims of AR-15 and other ASSAULT RIFLES.  The main injuries seem to be from the velocity of the bullets, and the cavitation caused once the bullets strike a body/organs.  They rip organs apart making repair much more difficult than if a moving object simply sliced through the body.  So I call BS on "no more killing capacity"
The damage done is NOT based on the weapon, but the round used.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5424197/Radiologist-reveals-effects-AR-15-bullets-human-body.html

So this doctor, like many others, doesn't know what they are talking about? Seems to be a common theme with you.

While it is a common theme with him, on this I have to side with our Libertarian friend.  The power of a round comes from the design of the ammunition, not really the weapon it's fired from.  If there's more gun powder packed into the bullet, and the bullet is physically larger, it tends to do more damage.

Handguns typically fire smaller and lower powered powered rounds.  Many hunting guns are capable of much higher powered fire (to put down a large animal like a moose safely you need a powerful round).  The AR15 is certainly not alone in being able to fire powerful rounds.

The AR15 is more deadly than many more traditional style hunting rifle because of things like the flash suppressor, the collapsible stock, the pistol grip, etc.  I think that the argument might also be made that there's little need for a large caliber semi-automatic rifle when hunting big game (I hunted moose for years with friends using a bolt action 30-06).  If you feel the need to spray an animal with bullets while hunting, you might want to take a step back and double check that you know what you're doing.

K.E. = 1/2 mv^2

Mass and Velocity play a role. They both absolutely affect damage. Libertarian claiming the weapon used plays no role is incorrect.

Mass is the same whether you use an AR-15, a Ruger 10-22 or an old fashioned bolt action rifle.

Velocity is determined by the ROUND (bullet mass, propellant load), not the rifle.

I'm just a humble engineer.  But I don't see how the choice of AR-15 (scary assault style weapon) or Ruger 10-22 (plain ol' ranch rifle) makes any difference.  It's the ROUND that matters, not the rifle you shoot it from (and yes, I realize we can get into details about rifling and the like, but in basic terms, the round is far more important than the rifle you shoot it from).

libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #220 on: April 07, 2018, 03:59:51 AM »

Agreed. Thank you for providing this explanation.

Wonder what the odds are that Libertarian will recognize his error, admit he doesn’t know enough about guns to engage in this discussion, and step away from it.

Unfortunately, the explanation is wrong.

So no, I won't "step away from it."

There is a huge difference in killing capacity even among rounds of the same caliber and same bullet mass/type.  Go to Cabellas or any other web page selling ammo, and you will note that there are wide varieties in propellant load in any given caliber.  Or, to put it simply, not all .22 rounds are the same, not are all .223 rounds are the same. 

This stuff isn't simple, folks.  You can't go into it shouting slogans you heard on the "Colbert Show" and think you can pass effective legislation.  That's one of the reasons Senator Feinstein's first "assault weapons ban" was such a failure- because she didn't know what the Hell she was doing.

libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #221 on: April 07, 2018, 04:13:13 AM »
I've read a few articles recently by doctors who have operated on victims of AR-15 and other ASSAULT RIFLES.  The main injuries seem to be from the velocity of the bullets, and the cavitation caused once the bullets strike a body/organs.  They rip organs apart making repair much more difficult than if a moving object simply sliced through the body.  So I call BS on "no more killing capacity"
The damage done is NOT based on the weapon, but the round used.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5424197/Radiologist-reveals-effects-AR-15-bullets-human-body.html

So this doctor, like many others, doesn't know what they are talking about? Seems to be a common theme with you.

While it is a common theme with him, on this I have to side with our Libertarian friend.  The power of a round comes from the design of the ammunition, not really the weapon it's fired from.  If there's more gun powder packed into the bullet, and the bullet is physically larger, it tends to do more damage.

Handguns typically fire smaller and lower powered powered rounds.  Many hunting guns are capable of much higher powered fire (to put down a large animal like a moose safely you need a powerful round).  The AR15 is certainly not alone in being able to fire powerful rounds.

The AR15 is more deadly than many more traditional style hunting rifle because of things like the flash suppressor, the collapsible stock, the pistol grip, etc.  I think that the argument might also be made that there's little need for a large caliber semi-automatic rifle when hunting big game (I hunted moose for years with friends using a bolt action 30-06).  If you feel the need to spray an animal with bullets while hunting, you might want to take a step back and double check that you know what you're doing.

K.E. = 1/2 mv^2

Mass and Velocity play a role. They both absolutely affect damage. Libertarian claiming the weapon used plays no role is incorrect.

.22 Caliber
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv67iJiV3So

.223 Caliber
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=43&v=f94Wz4ATcik

Notice the distinct difference in damage caused by rounds of very little weight difference. Expand it out to 500 yards and the.223 will hit it's target with almost twice the speed of the .22. If my calculations are correct this translates to the .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds.

Arguing over which is more destructive (mass or velocity) is a moot point. I only contended that arguing one doesn't matter is disingenuous.

I'm not a gun expert, but I'd figure any gun shooting the same .223 ammunition would have similar damage wouldn't it?  You're comparing completely different ammunition when you compare it to a gun firing a .22.

You are correct. 

The caliber (diameter of the round) is similar, but they are very different rounds.  And even among .223 rounds, you can have a wide variety.  Different amounts of propellant (and hence varying velocities), different bullets (the "head" of the round that actually hits the body) with vastly different materials that can be manufactured for different purposes (e.g. match rounds, designed for accuracy at distance versus home defense rounds- expensive, but not terribly lethal compared to other rounds, designed to "break up" in the body and cause massive internal injuries).

I have only a little bit of familiarity with some of the modern highly engineered home defense rounds (designed to do massive internal damage, without high velocity- they aren't supposed to pass through walls where they might hit bystanders), I'm still using old school full metal jacket.  I should look into upgrading my ammo to something more likely to kill an intruder, and less likely to penetrate walls. 

Because I'm a responsible gun owner, and do not want to hurt anyone who isn't breaking into my home.

libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #222 on: April 07, 2018, 04:19:03 AM »
Does muzzle velocity matter when shooting teenagers with no body armor at close range?

Unfortunately, it does matter, to a degree.  A high velocity round that tumbles will do more damage than a similar round with less velocity.  Though at close range, any round, even handgun rounds, are going to be very lethal.  And as I've stated in other posts, other factors, such as the design of the bullet, can be far more important in terms of lethality than velocity.




libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #223 on: April 07, 2018, 04:23:50 AM »
Does muzzle velocity matter when shooting young adults with no body armor at an outdoor concert from far range?

In this case, the answer is definitively "yes."

In general terms, a high velocity round is going to be more accurate at long range.

At close range, I could easily argue that an AR-15 is not the most devastating weapon.  Shotguns or even pistols could be just as devastating.  But at long range, a long gun (rifle) will be more dangerous- pistols (even those modified to function as carbines) and shotguns aren't as effective at long range.

libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #224 on: April 07, 2018, 04:28:55 AM »
What is the appropriate solution to control the use of firearms that have the muzzle velocity capable enough of inflicting permanent disfigurement and fatal wounds at both close and far range?

Essentially, A complete ban on all rifles capable of hunting.


UT Austin Shooter, 1966

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting


Kennedy Shooter, 1963

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy


Beyond that, most mass shootings don't happen with "Assault Rifles", or even happen with rifles at all...  But feel free to ignore the facts.
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0057.htm

Correct.

"Assault Style" weapons account for a minuscule percentage of the gun deaths in the USA, but they seem to be the ones that get the press all worked up.

30-years ago, the anti-gun hysteria was over handguns (which account for most of the gun deaths in the USA). I specifically remember how everyone was having fits about "Saturday Night Specials" (cheap little .22 caliber revolvers that were utter shit weapons). 

But sometime in the '90s, the left decided to shift their hysteria toward "assault style" weapons.  I have no idea why, but I assume it's because the AR-15 looked "scarier" than a Glock?  It played better in the newspapers?

libertarian4321

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #225 on: April 07, 2018, 04:36:14 AM »
Can we expect the current President to veto or pass gun control legislation if gun conrol advocates sweep the house this fall?  And if a Keith Ellison Victory happens in 2020, with a Democrat controlled congress, can we expect a reform bill to be passed unlike 08-09 when they had a large majority?

There is a reason Obama droned on and on about the horror of guns, but made NO ATTEMPT to get any legislation passed, even when his party controlled both houses of Congress.

Because believe it or not, not all Democrats agree with the coastal elite "anti-gun" agenda.

Sure, the leftists in MA, CA, and NY are nearly 100% in agreement that the government should take away the rights of citizens, but that isn't the case everywhere.  Democrats in the south, southwest, and even some parts of the NE are NOT gun banners (take Vermont for example- ultra leftist Bernie Sanders, has not exactly been tough on guns- because a lot of folks in VT own guns).

MasterStache

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #226 on: April 07, 2018, 06:50:48 AM »
Velocity is determined by the ROUND (bullet mass, propellant load), not the rifle.

I'm just a humble engineer.  But I don't see how the choice of AR-15 (scary assault style weapon) or Ruger 10-22 (plain ol' ranch rifle) makes any difference.  It's the ROUND that matters, not the rifle you shoot it from (and yes, I realize we can get into details about rifling and the like, but in basic terms, the round is far more important than the rifle you shoot it from).
 
If it's only determined by the round itself then what other "details" are there?

I find it strange, that as an "alleged" engineer you are being hand wavy on the details. Then again, after witnessing your condescension towards several people, I don't find it odd at all. You have a perception to maintain. Perhaps as an Engineer myself, details do matter to me. I certainly wouldn't dismiss the details to contradict my original assessment.   

Kris

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #227 on: April 07, 2018, 07:06:22 AM »
Velocity is determined by the ROUND (bullet mass, propellant load), not the rifle.

I'm just a humble engineer.  But I don't see how the choice of AR-15 (scary assault style weapon) or Ruger 10-22 (plain ol' ranch rifle) makes any difference.  It's the ROUND that matters, not the rifle you shoot it from (and yes, I realize we can get into details about rifling and the like, but in basic terms, the round is far more important than the rifle you shoot it from).
 
If it's only determined by the round itself then what other "details" are there?

I find it strange, that as an "alleged" engineer you are being hand wavy on the details. Then again, after witnessing your condescension towards several people, I don't find it odd at all. You have a perception to maintain. Perhaps as an Engineer myself, details do matter to me. I certainly wouldn't dismiss the details to contradict my original assessment.   

Truth.

px4shooter

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #228 on: April 07, 2018, 09:14:03 AM »
Does muzzle velocity matter when shooting teenagers with no body armor at close range?

Unfortunately, it does matter, to a degree.  A high velocity round that tumbles will do more damage than a similar round with less velocity.  Though at close range, any round, even handgun rounds, are going to be very lethal.  And as I've stated in other posts, other factors, such as the design of the bullet, can be far more important in terms of lethality than velocity.

The 5.56 round tumbling is one of those often misquoted/abused discussions and I wanted to add some since it seems some here only love the talking points and not facts. That is one of those old myths that have been around since the rifle was implemented in the military, as the barrel twist rate was incorrect, and the rounds would tumble in the air. The round commonly yaws after some penetration, as do most of the spitzer style of bullets. One thing it does do is fragment at close range impacts. Any obstruction will cause the round to fragment. Even the body will cause the round to fragment, which ruins the penetration argument when compared to a handgun.

The lack of penetration or over penetration is what has made this round safer for home defense. If you miss the target or hit the target, the round will not penetrate through and endanger someone else. That is not the same with a typical pistol round, other rifle rounds, or shotgun rounds.

This lack of penetration is one of the reasons SWAT teams have migrated to this set-up. It creates less of a chance of someone else being injured.

Pistols are smaller, easier to conceal, and are easier to carry more ammunition. The Virginia Tech shooter did most of his damage with the small .22 long rifle round, which is common throughout the world. It does not have the energy of rifle rounds, but the rifle is being villified by words like assault and black.

RetiredAt63

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #229 on: April 07, 2018, 10:29:34 AM »
As someone mentioned earlier, the emphasis on control has shifted from handguns to rifles.  Although rifles seem to be the popular weapon for those who want attention (i.e. mass shootings) a large part of the difference between American and Canadian stats is that in Canada  the vast majority of people do not legally own handguns except for target shooting, and those are tightly controlled.  Most hand guns used in shootings are illegal*, and the people using them are criminals.  This means there are no (or almost no) hand guns sitting in women's purses and drivers' glove boxes and people's nightstands.

* most come in from the US, because 1. you are next door, and 2. there are lots of hand guns floating around to smuggle.

GuitarStv

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #230 on: April 07, 2018, 11:31:19 AM »
Yep.  Controlling handguns makes a ton of sense (and one can argue that it even squares away better with the 2nd amendment), but is wildly unpopular in the US to the point that discussing it seems like a waste of time.

RetiredAt63

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #231 on: April 07, 2018, 03:11:40 PM »
Yep.  Controlling handguns makes a ton of sense (and one can argue that it even squares away better with the 2nd amendment), but is wildly unpopular in the US to the point that discussing it seems like a waste of time.

I know, but it is so depressing and sad to see the stats about handgun deaths and injuries. Sure we have mortality due to violence, I wish we didn't,  but the numbers are so much lower. Plus suicide by handgun is so effective, people don't get to rethink it. It's  a major reason why many women do not succeed,  we tend not to go for guns, we go for pills.

Just a side note, this discussion, especially the concealed carry part, sure makes major parts of the US a less attractive tourist destination for me.

TexasRunner

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #232 on: April 07, 2018, 05:01:29 PM »
Yep.  Controlling handguns makes a ton of sense (and one can argue that it even squares away better with the 2nd amendment), but is wildly unpopular in the US to the point that discussing it seems like a waste of time.

I know, but it is so depressing and sad to see the stats about handgun deaths and injuries. Sure we have mortality due to violence, I wish we didn't,  but the numbers are so much lower. Plus suicide by handgun is so effective, people don't get to rethink it. It's  a major reason why many women do not succeed,  we tend not to go for guns, we go for pills.

Just a side note, this discussion, especially the concealed carry part, sure makes major parts of the US a less attractive tourist destination for me.

Sure... because concealed carriers are the problem.
It totally has nothing to do with the fact that CCW's basically NEVER commit crime.
I'm really wondering how two different parts of the same country can live in such opposite realities...

RetiredAt63

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #233 on: April 07, 2018, 05:34:03 PM »
Sure... because concealed carriers are the problem.
It totally has nothing to do with the fact that CCW's basically NEVER commit crime.
I'm really wondering how two different parts of the same country can live in such opposite realities...

I was thinking of the purse guns that the toddlers grab - and I've had a few road rage incidents, because I keep to the speed limit - and an armed road rage?  No thanks.

Um, "same country" comment?  I am not part of your country, so don't worry about opposite realities.  I thought I made it clear I am Canadian.


TrudgingAlong

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #234 on: April 07, 2018, 08:57:36 PM »
I’d love to see some proof that concealed carriers never commit crime...

Chris22

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #235 on: April 07, 2018, 09:06:14 PM »
I’d love to see some proof that concealed carriers never commit crime...

Obviously it’s not “never” but CCW holders are an extremely law-abiding group:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/8255/report-concealed-carry-permit-holders-are-most-law-aaron-bandler

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #236 on: April 07, 2018, 10:41:36 PM »
If a person takes a bullet to the head from a firearm with a high muzzle velocity, what happens if they take a bullet to the head from a firearm with a slower muzzle velocity?  I'm sorry I'm not very up to speed on firearms, just looking for some solutions.

px4shooter

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #237 on: April 07, 2018, 10:52:35 PM »
If a person takes a bullet to the head from a firearm with a high muzzle velocity, what happens if they take a bullet to the head from a firearm with a slower muzzle velocity?  I'm sorry I'm not very up to speed on firearms, just looking for some solutions.

A shot to the cerebral cortex is often lights out regardless of the high or lower velocity.

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #238 on: April 07, 2018, 11:05:04 PM »
So muzzle velocity doesn't matter. Ok check.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 06:23:17 AM by Spiritual_Lobotomy »

RetiredAt63

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #239 on: April 08, 2018, 11:17:01 AM »
So muzzle velocity doesn't matter. Ok check.

What about a different target?  Something that is sometimes fixable and sometimes not. Like the shoulder? 

BlueMR2

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #240 on: April 08, 2018, 12:07:22 PM »
What about a different target?  Something that is sometimes fixable and sometimes not. Like the shoulder?

If not a lights out central nervous system hit, your next big risk is bleeding out.  The more damage done the more likely it is for that to happen.  That's why you hear about some people dying after a single gunshot wound and others taking dozens of hits and surviving.  Get hit in places without major arteries and nerves and it's very survivable.

BlueHouse

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #241 on: April 09, 2018, 02:52:39 PM »
Can we expect the current President to veto or pass gun control legislation if gun conrol advocates sweep the house this fall?  And if a Keith Ellison Victory happens in 2020, with a Democrat controlled congress, can we expect a reform bill to be passed unlike 08-09 when they had a large majority?

There is a reason Obama droned on and on about the horror of guns, but made NO ATTEMPT to get any legislation passed, even when his party controlled both houses of Congress.

Because believe it or not, not all Democrats agree with the coastal elite "anti-gun" agenda.

Sure, the leftists in MA, CA, and NY are nearly 100% in agreement that the government should take away the rights of citizens, but that isn't the case everywhere.  Democrats in the south, southwest, and even some parts of the NE are NOT gun banners (take Vermont for example- ultra leftist Bernie Sanders, has not exactly been tough on guns- because a lot of folks in VT own guns).

Can you define what you mean by "coastal elite" and why that's an appropriate modifier here?  Because at this point, it just sounds as if you're reading someone else's talking points. 

Davnasty

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #242 on: April 09, 2018, 03:14:00 PM »
I've read a few articles recently by doctors who have operated on victims of AR-15 and other ASSAULT RIFLES.  The main injuries seem to be from the velocity of the bullets, and the cavitation caused once the bullets strike a body/organs.  They rip organs apart making repair much more difficult than if a moving object simply sliced through the body.  So I call BS on "no more killing capacity"
The damage done is NOT based on the weapon, but the round used.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5424197/Radiologist-reveals-effects-AR-15-bullets-human-body.html

So this doctor, like many others, doesn't know what they are talking about? Seems to be a common theme with you.

She either doesn't know what she is talking about, or is being intentionally misleading.  I should point out that getting an MD does not make one an expert on weapons.  She may have seen nasty wounds that were fired by an AR-15 and ASSUMED all AR-15s cause that kind of damage, which is not necessarily the case.  Let me explain.

An AR-15 is capable of firing a .556 NATO military round (high velocity, and "tumbles" in the body, making it a pretty lethal round, though not the worst) or it can fire a common .22 plinking round (the round most kids use when they first learn to shoot at cans or bottles.  A round with a very low lethality).

I should also point out that MANY other rifles that don't look as "scary" as the AR-15 are capable of firing that high velocity military round.

The point is, the AR-15 can fire a highly lethal round, or a far less lethal round.

Non "assault style" rifles that can fire the same lethal round I mentioned before as well (or they can fire less lethal rounds).

Why is this important?  Because you have to know what you are talking about to pass a law.

If you ban all AR-15s, the next shooter can just use a Ruger 10-22 or Mini-14.  Rather bland looking weapons, that are perfectly capable of firing highly lethal rounds just as fast as an AR-15.  As are many other semi-autos that aren't "assault style."

Note that the doctor seemed to be obsessing about how the rounds used in Florida were more lethal than a HANDGUN.  She's more or less right there- the 5.56 is far higher velocity than typical handgun rounds (9 mm, .38, etc).  Most handguns do not fire high velocity rounds (and they are far less accurate).  But almost any rifle can- even ancient bolt action rifles.  Note that there are specialized handgun rounds that can do just as much damage, not because of their velocity, but because the bullets are designed to fragment inside the body, causing massive damage.   

So a ban on "assault style" rifles would be pretty pointless, because any rifle can do the same kind of internal damage she was talking about, as can handguns, given the proper ammunition selection.

I won't even get into the kind of damage one could do with a semi-auto shotgun at close quarters.  These things can have up to 23 rounds, fire ALL of them in less than 4 seconds, and in close quarters are far more devastating than an AR-15.

So are we gonna ban shotguns as well?

There's so much to discuss in your lengthy posts here but I think this might be the one thing that really shows just how disingenuous your arguments are. The obvious answer to your question is no, we would not ban shotguns... but we would ban magazines that hold 23 shells. In fact the previous ban capped magazines at 10 rounds and if we were able to have an informed discussion like the one you say you want I suspect we could agree on a slightly lower max capacity for shotguns than handguns.

So either you're ignoring the magazine restrictions which were and would be part af an assault weapons ban or you didn't even know that it was a part of the ban. Can you tell us which it is so we know which direction to take the discussion?

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #243 on: April 09, 2018, 05:36:57 PM »
I've read a few articles recently by doctors who have operated on victims of AR-15 and other ASSAULT RIFLES.  The main injuries seem to be from the velocity of the bullets, and the cavitation caused once the bullets strike a body/organs.  They rip organs apart making repair much more difficult than if a moving object simply sliced through the body.  So I call BS on "no more killing capacity"
The damage done is NOT based on the weapon, but the round used.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5424197/Radiologist-reveals-effects-AR-15-bullets-human-body.html

So this doctor, like many others, doesn't know what they are talking about? Seems to be a common theme with you.

She either doesn't know what she is talking about, or is being intentionally misleading.  I should point out that getting an MD does not make one an expert on weapons.  She may have seen nasty wounds that were fired by an AR-15 and ASSUMED all AR-15s cause that kind of damage, which is not necessarily the case.  Let me explain.

An AR-15 is capable of firing a .556 NATO military round (high velocity, and "tumbles" in the body, making it a pretty lethal round, though not the worst) or it can fire a common .22 plinking round (the round most kids use when they first learn to shoot at cans or bottles.  A round with a very low lethality).

I should also point out that MANY other rifles that don't look as "scary" as the AR-15 are capable of firing that high velocity military round.

The point is, the AR-15 can fire a highly lethal round, or a far less lethal round.

Non "assault style" rifles that can fire the same lethal round I mentioned before as well (or they can fire less lethal rounds).

Why is this important?  Because you have to know what you are talking about to pass a law.

If you ban all AR-15s, the next shooter can just use a Ruger 10-22 or Mini-14.  Rather bland looking weapons, that are perfectly capable of firing highly lethal rounds just as fast as an AR-15.  As are many other semi-autos that aren't "assault style."

Note that the doctor seemed to be obsessing about how the rounds used in Florida were more lethal than a HANDGUN.  She's more or less right there- the 5.56 is far higher velocity than typical handgun rounds (9 mm, .38, etc).  Most handguns do not fire high velocity rounds (and they are far less accurate).  But almost any rifle can- even ancient bolt action rifles.  Note that there are specialized handgun rounds that can do just as much damage, not because of their velocity, but because the bullets are designed to fragment inside the body, causing massive damage.   

So a ban on "assault style" rifles would be pretty pointless, because any rifle can do the same kind of internal damage she was talking about, as can handguns, given the proper ammunition selection.

I won't even get into the kind of damage one could do with a semi-auto shotgun at close quarters.  These things can have up to 23 rounds, fire ALL of them in less than 4 seconds, and in close quarters are far more devastating than an AR-15.

So are we gonna ban shotguns as well?

There's so much to discuss in your lengthy posts here but I think this might be the one thing that really shows just how disingenuous your arguments are. The obvious answer to your question is no, we would not ban shotguns... but we would ban magazines that hold 23 shells. In fact the previous ban capped magazines at 10 rounds and if we were able to have an informed discussion like the one you say you want I suspect we could agree on a slightly lower max capacity for shotguns than handguns.

So either you're ignoring the magazine restrictions which were and would be part af an assault weapons ban or you didn't even know that it was a part of the ban. Can you tell us which it is so we know which direction to take the discussion?

If we ban rifle magazine capacity in excess of 10 rounds, what should the appropriate handgun capacity be?  Assuming the next psychopath who attempts a mass shooting cannot get her/his hands on an illegal "banned" high capacity magazine (in the age of online international commerce I doubt we can prevent this), whats to keep her/him from using two hand guns at the same time.  What laws can we pass that would keep that individual from carrying up to six handguns secured under a jacket? Each with x amount of bullets loaded in the magazine.  We have determined that when carrying out a mass shooting that muzzle velocity makes no difference in the abstract of some kind of damage inflicted, only in the scale of damage.  I find muzzle velocity to be negligent at this point.  Would a 6 round maximum handgun capacity be sufficient?    Deerfield IL recently passed a ban on certain assault type firearms.  Daily fines accrue for citizens who do not turn in rifles they currently own at rate of up to $1000 per day.  A federal ban of this size and scope seems to be a possible solution for both handguns and rifles to secure the a safe limit for round/volume discharge rate.  The Department of Firearm Safety? 

GuitarStv

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #244 on: April 10, 2018, 07:54:15 AM »
^ Magazine capacity doesn't matter much to someone who is bent on mass shootings. Anyone can tactical speed reload even a 5 shot revolver using multiple speed reloaders or moon clips or other legal devices to enable almost non-stop firing. With a pistol its even easier as you can have multiple magazines (even packs of mags coupled together) for the same effect. Look online for revolver or pistol speed reloading or tactical reloading for videos and into. The same can be done while reloading a shotgun on the fly. If I can do this stuff anyone can so limiting magazine capacity in most handguns, shotguns or even rifles probably won't make that much of a difference to most mass shooters who have reloading skills.

ETA I'm just passing along info not making any implications of what should or shouldn't be done. I'm a gun owner in Calif were we have most the the gun laws in place that gun control people would like to see. I personally have no problems with those laws.

No solution is perfect.

If a shooter has great speed reloading skills, maybe they'll only lose a handful of seconds rather than a handful of minutes in a shooting spree.  That's still a benefit to the people being shot at though.

TexasRunner

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #245 on: April 10, 2018, 08:13:25 AM »
https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/

Quote
Gun Ownership
According to a 2013 PEW Research Center survey, the household gun ownership rate in rural areas was 2.11 times greater than in urban areas (“Why Own a Gun? Protection is Now Top Reason,” PEW Research Center, March 12, 2013).   Suburban households are 28.6% more likely to own guns than urban households. Despite lower gun ownership, urban areas experience much higher murder rates. One should not put much weight on this purely “cross-sectional” evidence over one point in time and many factors determine murder rates, but it is still interesting to note that so much of the country has both very high gun ownership rates and zero murders.

Conclusion
This study shows how murders in the United States are heavily concentrated in very small areas. Few appreciate how much of the US has no murders each year.  Murder isn’t a nationwide problem.  It’s a problem in a very small set of urban areas, and any solution must reduce those murders.

Davnasty

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #246 on: April 10, 2018, 08:50:30 AM »
^ Magazine capacity doesn't matter much to someone who is bent on mass shootings. Anyone can tactical speed reload even a 5 shot revolver using multiple speed reloaders or moon clips or other legal devices to enable almost non-stop firing. With a pistol its even easier as you can have multiple magazines (even packs of mags coupled together) for the same effect. Look online for revolver or pistol speed reloading or tactical reloading for videos and into. The same can be done while reloading a shotgun on the fly. If I can do this stuff anyone can so limiting magazine capacity in most handguns, shotguns or even rifles probably won't make that much of a difference to most mass shooters who have reloading skills.

ETA I'm just passing along info not making any implications of what should or shouldn't be done. I'm a gun owner in Calif were we have most the the gun laws in place that gun control people would like to see. I personally have no problems with those laws.

How much of a difference matters? I realize we need to weigh pros and cons and that the pros to a magazine capacity limit may be small, but what are the cons? Does anyone have a practical purpose for firing 23 shotgun shells in succession? How about 10? 5? I can see an argument for going as low as 3-4 which would still make for a viable home defense weapon and hunting tool (I've never used anything semiauto for hunting) but of course the actual number is up for debate.

Not to mention I think you are downplaying the effectiveness of a limit. For someone who is well trained to speed reload it may be a matter of seconds, but that could still save lives in specific circumstances. OR they could make a mistake while reloading. Even someone well trained with the muscle memory to reload quickly can make a mistake, especially under the pressure that comes with shooting at people in public, pressure they've almost certainly never trained for. OR the very likely scenario that the shooter hasn't had the time or resources to train. As has been discussed, many shooters are on a suicide mission. Some may be well trained and knowledgable of their weapons while others are seeking out weapons a matter of days before they plan to use them.

I'm still firmly of the opinion that mass shootings are not where our primary gun control efforts should be focused but if we can make some improvement without sacrificing practical uses of guns, why not? Just how effective a limit would be is certainly up for debate, but until the argument for why we need large capacity magazines outweighs even the smallest plausible advantage of a limit I'm going to be in favor of a limit.

GuitarStv

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #247 on: April 10, 2018, 09:20:36 AM »
https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/

Quote
Gun Ownership
According to a 2013 PEW Research Center survey, the household gun ownership rate in rural areas was 2.11 times greater than in urban areas (“Why Own a Gun? Protection is Now Top Reason,” PEW Research Center, March 12, 2013).   Suburban households are 28.6% more likely to own guns than urban households. Despite lower gun ownership, urban areas experience much higher murder rates. One should not put much weight on this purely “cross-sectional” evidence over one point in time and many factors determine murder rates, but it is still interesting to note that so much of the country has both very high gun ownership rates and zero murders.

Conclusion
This study shows how murders in the United States are heavily concentrated in very small areas. Few appreciate how much of the US has no murders each year.  Murder isn’t a nationwide problem.  It’s a problem in a very small set of urban areas, and any solution must reduce those murders.

Good point.  Most of the people who own guns for protection, do not actually need the gun for protection.  That should certainly play a factor in the discussion of gun control.

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #248 on: April 10, 2018, 11:21:05 AM »
How did the Columbine students pull off their plot under an assault weapons ban?  What other event was that particular tragedy measurable against to determine the effectiveness of the ban?  If we are successful in taking control of the house, senate, and presidency in 2020, and are also successful in implementing a new ban (as discussed) will Americans be satisfied that the number of fatalities and permanent disfigurements is several persons fewer (assuming that's the case, we could have another Columbine could we not)?  We have agreed that we will not stop the shooter, are we assuming the country will feel "we've done something" assuming the fatalities and injuries are marginally or substantially fewer?  Or will the re-occurrence of these tragedies pave a new road map for Republicans to regain control proposing their ridiculous solutions? 

GuitarStv

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Re: March For Our Lives 3/24/18
« Reply #249 on: April 10, 2018, 11:38:13 AM »
How did the Columbine students pull off their plot under an assault weapons ban?

Straw purchases.  The very thing that background checks and a gun registry would prevent.

Quote
Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold and Harris, bought the shotguns and the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine at The Tanner Gun Show in December of 1998 from unlicensed sellers. Because Anderson purchased the guns for someone else, the transition constituted an illegal "straw purchase." Klebold and Harris bought the TEC-DC9 from a pizza shop employee named Mark Manes, who knew they were too young to purchase the assault pistol, but nevertheless sold it to them for $500.
  - http://www.vpc.org/studies/wgun990420.htm

See, that's the problem when there's virtually no chance of being caught at doing something illegal . . . people do the illegal thing.