Major Upset in USA politics

[sol]

As it is, a person could easily have more than 50% of the country vote for him and end up losing the election

This is not a hypothetical situation.  With the exception of John Kerry, Democratic Presidential candidates have won a majority of every popular vote since 1989.  And Republicans consistently lose the popular vote in the House of Representatives despite continuing to hold a rock-solid majority there.

But these two observations are exactly why the system won't be changed.  Creative redistricting and non-representative voting are the only means by which Republicans have been able to hold power since the fall of the Soviet Union.

[trailrated]

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

I consider myself to be a "tea party" person and I think you are delusional.

-I am white
-I do not feel like my power is being taken away
-I am for amnesty for illegal immigrants that are here already along with stricter border control
-I am pro gay marriage
-Saying I do not like different things like non-white skin colors is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
-I am not religious

So I guess what I am trying to say is you are as ignorant as you claim we are if you actually believe what you wrote. I will fully admit there are some crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum but trying to write off everyone is lazy, ignorant, and delusional.

I am trying to figure out WHY you would be tea partier then?  Anti-evolution?  Pro-guns?  Anti-women's choice?  What? 
ETA:  Can you name one tea-party politician who is not nuts?  Or that even agrees with you on your list?  Cause right now, all I can think of who is representing "you" are right wing crazies.

I am for smaller government and fiscal responsibility. I am pro gun, but not opposed to background checks. When it comes to pro life/pro choice I stay consistent with smaller government as in it should be none of their business, although I think there are some valid moral arguments on each side.

Not everyone that disagrees with you has to be painted as some insane racist uneducated hillbilly. When it comes to politicians I look at all of their stances and weigh what is most important to me. Have I ever found someone that I agree with 100% on every issue? No, absolutely not...and if you have I think that speaks more about you than me.

[Poorman]

As it is, a person could easily have more than 50% of the country vote for him and end up losing the election

This is not a hypothetical situation.  With the exception of John Kerry, Democratic Presidential candidates have won a majority of every popular vote since 1989.  And Republicans consistently lose the popular vote in the House of Representatives despite continuing to hold a rock-solid majority there.

But these two observations are exactly why the system won't be changed.  Creative redistricting and non-representative voting are the only means by which Republicans have been able to hold power since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Bill Clinton did not win a majority of the vote.  There were 3 candidates and he won the most votes of the three candidates, but it wasn't a majority.  If you add the votes together of the 2 non-Bill Clinton candidates, they won the majority of the vote in 1992.  I'm sure you can blame good old fashioned racism or something.

[Gin1984]

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

I consider myself to be a "tea party" person and I think you are delusional.

-I am white
-I do not feel like my power is being taken away
-I am for amnesty for illegal immigrants that are here already along with stricter border control
-I am pro gay marriage
-Saying I do not like different things like non-white skin colors is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
-I am not religious

So I guess what I am trying to say is you are as ignorant as you claim we are if you actually believe what you wrote. I will fully admit there are some crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum but trying to write off everyone is lazy, ignorant, and delusional.

I am trying to figure out WHY you would be tea partier then?  Anti-evolution?  Pro-guns?  Anti-women's choice?  What? 
ETA:  Can you name one tea-party politician who is not nuts?  Or that even agrees with you on your list?  Cause right now, all I can think of who is representing "you" are right wing crazies.

I am for smaller government and fiscal responsibility. I am pro gun, but not opposed to background checks. When it comes to pro life/pro choice I stay consistent with smaller government as in it should be none of their business, although I think there are some valid moral arguments on each side.

Not everyone that disagrees with you has to be painted as some insane racist uneducated hillbilly. When it comes to politicians I look at all of their stances and weigh what is most important to me. Have I ever found someone that I agree with 100% on every issue? No, absolutely not...and if you have I think that speaks more about you than me.

In my lifetime, the dems have been more fiscally conservative (attempting a balanced budget aka Clinton, than the GOP) so I am a little confused on WHY you would associate then with a balanced budget.  We do not have enough money in budget to sit there and keep the Bush tax credits.  I get people like not paying taxes but for Gods sake, no one can balance the budget without more inflow without causing major issues for our country.  I was able to balance the budget, and sent it to my old Congress person.  It would take 10 years, a ton of little cuts, a small increase in taxes and a bond initiative that moved the over 3% bonds from international to citizen based and his response (which I trust because I have known him for 25 years) was he could not get everyone to agree for that long.  There used to be collaboration across the board and it is no longer there, and that is coming from the tea party and GOP leadership. 
I asked if you could name one because I can't.  If there is any, I'd love to know.  But based on your answer, "When it comes to politicians I look at all of their stances and weigh what is most important to me. Have I ever found someone that I agree with 100% on every issue?", I would take it, you can't find one who agrees?  With even some of those?  But IDEA of small government (even though their actions are not of small government) makes you willing to vote for them, is what I am reading here.  Correct me if I am wrong. 

[gdgyva]

before you can balance the budget, we have to get our spending in order

you say we cant make significant cuts w/o upsetting the overall economy

i disagree

defense can be cut 30% if we stop being the world's police force

social security will have to have the beginning ages adjusted....we are living longer and the math no longer works

medicaid/medicare have enormous amounts of waste in the system...along with fraud

there are departments of the government that can be gutted.....irs for one, education department, hud

the irs is the easiest one.....we go to a one page income tax form

all income is taxed exactly the same

everyone pays something

it is progressive in that higher incomes payer a higher %

doesnt matter if you own a home, or have 8 kids.....

4-5 tax brackets.....

0-50k    5%
50,001-80k   10%
80001-150000   16%
150001-400000   22%
400001 +   27%

we make business taxes almost as easy.....yes the lobbyists from H&R block, big six firms will go nuts

we need to make changes...not small ones.....

we freaking owe 17 trillion dollars not counting unfunded liabilities.....something has to give

[mulescent]

no we dont live in a democracy

I apologize for the shorthand, but it doesn't change my point.

so you are saying that it is the representatives role to do as the public in general wants?

or to do what their district has sent them to do?

please, enlighten us with your wisdom

While those are interesting questions, I don't really think they bear on the point I was trying to make.  As citizens, we have a duty to embrace the social contract (in this case to respect what the representatives of the majority have chosen).  The current attitude of many seems to be "it's broken so let's just burn it down," or "I'm not getting my way, so let's just burn it down."  That is what I find reprehensible.  If there are problems, we should work together in a positive way to fix them, not threaten our fellow citizens with bankruptcy, violence, etc to get our way.

[Gin1984]

before you can balance the budget, we have to get our spending in order

you say we cant make significant cuts w/o upsetting the overall economy

i disagree

defense can be cut 30% if we stop being the world's police force

social security will have to have the beginning ages adjusted....we are living longer and the math no longer works

medicaid/medicare have enormous amounts of waste in the system...along with fraud

there are departments of the government that can be gutted.....irs for one, education department, hud

the irs is the easiest one.....we go to a one page income tax form

all income is taxed exactly the same

everyone pays something

it is progressive in that higher incomes payer a higher %

doesnt matter if you own a home, or have 8 kids.....

4-5 tax brackets.....

0-50k    5%
50,001-80k   10%
80001-150000   16%
150001-400000   22%
400001 +   27%

we make business taxes almost as easy.....yes the lobbyists from H&R block, big six firms will go nuts

we need to make changes...not small ones.....

we freaking owe 17 trillion dollars not counting unfunded liabilities.....something has to give

And have ANY tea party elected officals said we should cut the military, because I don't recall a single one.  And frankly I don't think you understand enough about the rest to decide they should be gutted and yes doing all of those would cause the USA to go into a depression. 
I really would like your source for the waste in Medicaid/Medicare. 

[hybrid]

Can I ask a question?  This is risking a thread derail but I really don't feel like wading through google on this one.  Why are Tea Partiers so focused on illegal immigration? 

I don't actually know much about the Tea Party, other than they definitely want me out of a job (fed employee).

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

One caveat is that the tea party can be hard to pin down. Some surveys have found them to be more educated than average and more female than male. But it seems overall the candidates they support are extremely far right Republicans. They claim to want the government to spend less money, but I've never heard one of their candidates support cutting the defense budget or social security/medicare, which combined account for about half our expenses.

And they're slitting their own throats with the staunch anti-immigrant stances.  Even through gdgyva claims that he would like to allow legal immigrants, the vast majority of Tea Party folks are anti-immigrant in any case.  That undercurrent runs through their tone and is felt by every non-white person in America. With our changing demographics, well, it's going to be a rough ride for those that think they're going to "take their country back" by taking a tough stance on immigration.

Here here. Recommending using lethal force at the Mexican border and dismissing illegals as unskilled (often untrue) and a drag on the economy (also untrue) doesn't sound like an open embrace to me. The OP may not be a racist, we'll give him that much, yet his attitudes and attitudes like those embraced throughout the overwhelmingly white Tea Party are a real turn off to the Hispanic community. Only 27% voted Republican last election, and of course a significant number of those are the loyal Cuban vote in Florida, not the Mexican and Central American Hispanic vote.

The overwhelmingly white GOP is losing the demographics game over time.

Brat ran very few commercials here (no budget), but the refrain about illegals taking American jobs is a common one and was in his ads. I prefer to think illegals often end up doing the jobs many Americans won't.

Regardless, electrified fences and/or guard towers with snipers at our gynormous southern border is just plain stupid. Mexico is one of our largest trading partners after all, not North Korea. And just plain stupid unfortunately courses through and is tolerated by entirely too much of the Tea Party. They are a protest movement first and foremost, the hard work of governing takes a back seat to that.

[Russ]

i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

this is from a meeting a few months back

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security

we need to have border security first....how do we get it.....we close down the majority of bases worldwide that house our military.....we leave a few open in critical areas, or as staging bases
maybe we need 5 total.....close all the rest
with the money saved, we can use those troops to secure the border, or hire agents to seal the border
i want it lethal to try and cross....a few may make it, but we wont have 800k crossing per year
we put teeth into the hiring of illegals.....first offense 500k.....second offence 1million......third offence loss of the business and all related assets
we make e-verify national and the law
for those businesses that try to continue to use illegals paying cash under the table, i dont have a solution yet....

for those here, we put together a plan to help them gain citizenship
we make it hard, but doable
and learning the language is one of the requirements
maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

there are solutions to the problems.....no they arent easy......nor will they be palatable to all

LOL, and then you shut down the agriculture in California, skyrocking the price of produce here.  Great job.  We (those in California) need those immigrants.  A better solution would be to actually allow the NEEDED workers here with visa and come down HARD on the employers who employe outside that pool.

the agriculture immigrants use a h-2a temporary visa

The H-2A program allows U.S. employers or U.S. agents who meet specific regulatory requirements to bring foreign nationals to the United States to fill temporary agricultural jobs. A U.S. employer,a U.S. agent as described in the regulations,or an association of U.S. agricultural producers named as a joint employer must file Form I-129, Petition for Nonimmigrant Worker, on a prospective worker’s behalf.

http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-2a-agricultural-workers/h-2a-temporary-agricultural-workers

i have an acquaintance in Ca. that manages a huge farm....he brings in guys/gals twice a year for harvesting his crops

you might want to get better information if that is your argument

If you think

that there aren't a significant number

of undocumented workers

in agriculture and other industries

propping up the economy

with gray market labor

you are terribly

underinformed

(and maybe

it wouldn't hurt

to write a full paragraph

for once)

[Poorman]

And have ANY tea party elected officals said we should cut the military, because I don't recall a single one.

Rand Paul’s quiet war against more defense spending
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/07/rand_paul_on_defense_spending_the_senator_does_not_believe_that_republicans_or_democrats_are_serious_about_cutting_.html

[randymarsh]

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

I consider myself to be a "tea party" person and I think you are delusional.

-I am white
-I do not feel like my power is being taken away
-I am for amnesty for illegal immigrants that are here already along with stricter border control
-I am pro gay marriage
-Saying I do not like different things like non-white skin colors is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
-I am not religious

So I guess what I am trying to say is you are as ignorant as you claim we are if you actually believe what you wrote. I will fully admit there are some crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum but trying to write off everyone is lazy, ignorant, and delusional.

POTD......post of the day!

btw

i am white
i am not religious
i am not a gun nut
i am pro choice
i am pro marriage for all
i want small government
i hate taxes, and think they should be abolished
i think we need to stop being the world police force
my best friend is black, and he too is a conservative (fiscal)

dont believe everything you hear and read about the tea party

most of it is pure bunk

It's fine if those are your views, but I'm sorry, the tea party candidates do not agree. The candidates your party is throwing its weight behind are extreme right wingers. They're typically homophobic, racist, "pro-life", Christian and do not want to cut spending in any meaningful areas.

You've been sold a lie by the Koch brothers.

[Gin1984]

And have ANY tea party elected officals said we should cut the military, because I don't recall a single one.

Rand Paul’s quiet war against more defense spending
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/07/rand_paul_on_defense_spending_the_senator_does_not_believe_that_republicans_or_democrats_are_serious_about_cutting_.html

Thank you.  He has said so many crazy things I rarely pay attention to him.

[gdgyva]

If you think

that there aren't a significant number

of undocumented workers

in agriculture and other industries

propping up the economy

with gray market labor

you are terribly

underinformed

(and maybe

it wouldn't hurt

to write a full paragraph

for once)

quoted from earlier post

we put teeth into the hiring of illegals.....first offense 500k.....second offence 1million......third offence loss of the business and all related assets
we make e-verify national and the law
for those businesses that try to continue to use illegals paying cash under the table, i dont have a solution yet....


i understand there is a thriving economy based on illegals working

imo, it needs to stop

the cash businesses are the ones where i havent heard any good thoughts on how to do that....

ideas can be shared in a sentence

maybe it isnt my answers, maybe it is your reading or comprehension that is lacking

[Gin1984]

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

I consider myself to be a "tea party" person and I think you are delusional.

-I am white
-I do not feel like my power is being taken away
-I am for amnesty for illegal immigrants that are here already along with stricter border control
-I am pro gay marriage
-Saying I do not like different things like non-white skin colors is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
-I am not religious

So I guess what I am trying to say is you are as ignorant as you claim we are if you actually believe what you wrote. I will fully admit there are some crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum but trying to write off everyone is lazy, ignorant, and delusional.

POTD......post of the day!

btw

i am white
i am not religious
i am not a gun nut
i am pro choice
i am pro marriage for all
i want small government
i hate taxes, and think they should be abolished
i think we need to stop being the world police force
my best friend is black, and he too is a conservative (fiscal)

dont believe everything you hear and read about the tea party

most of it is pure bunk

It's fine if those are your views, but I'm sorry, the tea party candidates do not agree. The candidates your party is throwing its weight behind are extreme right wingers. They're typically homophobic, racist, "pro-life", Christian and do not want to cut spending in any meaningful areas.

You've been sold a lie by the Koch brothers.

Source?

Well their own website says "The Tea Party includes those who possess a strong belief in the foundational Judeo-Christian values embedded in our great founding documents." except that that fact is untrue.  Those values are anti-gay and anti-women's right to chose.
Again on their site:
1. Illegal aliens are here illegally.
2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.
3. A strong military is essential.
4. Special interests must be eliminated.
5. Gun ownership is sacred.
6. Government must be downsized.
7. The national budget must be balanced.
8. Deficit spending must end.
9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal.
10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.
11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory.
12. Political offices must be available to average citizens.
13. Intrusive government must be stopped.
14. English as our core language is required.
15. Traditional family values are encouraged. - aka no gays, or strong females
And why for 14, because all other first world nations expect their students to be fluent in two language at least.
Oh and to answer the person who said I could not say that tea partiers were uneducated about the issues:  "Sixty-four percent believe that the president has increased taxes for most Americans, despite the fact that the vast majority of Americans got a tax cut under the Obama administration."
ETA:  You can look through wiki for "tea party associated candidates", I got bored trying to read through them all, but the first set agreed with him.  If you don't, you are welcome to read it and bore yourself, I'm done.

[Russ]

i understand there is a thriving economy based on illegals working

imo, it needs to stop

I don't think you know what you're asking for with that.

maybe it isnt my answers, maybe it is your reading or comprehension that is lacking

yep you got me there

[Poorman]

depends on how impartial the third party was

the same thing happens in blue states

districts are aligned so that the conservative neighborhoods are a small minority

you really dont think ALL of california is that liberal, do you?

We all admit that Southern and Central California are moderate/conservative, it is just that liberals (in Ca) often live in dense space like San Fransisco and the rest of the bay area.  Also, our idea of a moderate/conservative is often more liberal that the rest of the country's conservatives.  For example, I have never met a tea partier in Northern Ca.

California has a Citizens Redistricting Commission that is charged with drawing voting boundaries.  The politicians themselves do not do it.  It's districts are not gerrymandered because of this.

http://wedrawthelines.ca.gov/

So arguing that California is that Democratic because of gerrymandered districts doesn't make any sense.  FYI

California isn't as Democratic as people think (only about 45% of voters are registered D), but it's not Republican either.  Most outsiders don't understand our state politics because it's completely backwards from most other parts of the country.  California is fiscally liberal and socially conservative.  That's why there are chronic budget deficits and calls to raise taxes, along with ballot propositions outlawing gay marriage on two separate occasions,  against affirmative action, and in favor of denying all benefits to illegal immigrants including public schools (prop 187).  The ballot initiative to legalize pot also failed two years ago.

[mulescent]

before you can balance the budget, we have to get our spending in order

you say we cant make significant cuts w/o upsetting the overall economy

i disagree

defense can be cut 30% if we stop being the world's police force

social security will have to have the beginning ages adjusted....we are living longer and the math no longer works

medicaid/medicare have enormous amounts of waste in the system...along with fraud

there are departments of the government that can be gutted.....irs for one, education department, hud

the irs is the easiest one.....we go to a one page income tax form

all income is taxed exactly the same

everyone pays something

it is progressive in that higher incomes payer a higher %

doesnt matter if you own a home, or have 8 kids.....

4-5 tax brackets.....

0-50k    5%
50,001-80k   10%
80001-150000   16%
150001-400000   22%
400001 +   27%

we make business taxes almost as easy.....yes the lobbyists from H&R block, big six firms will go nuts

we need to make changes...not small ones.....

we freaking owe 17 trillion dollars not counting unfunded liabilities.....something has to give

I disagree strongly. 

Medicare and medicade are currently the most efficient forms of health insurance in this country (http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2011/09/20/medicare-is-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/).  Eliminating or curtailing them would drive people into the arms of the highly inefficient private health insurance market.

You want to "gut" the department of education.  Where, exactly, will we educate our kids?  We've "gutted" funding for higher education in this country over the last ten years and the result is obvious: insane levels of student debt.  I can just imagine once we do away with all public funding for education the poor/middle class will have to take out loans to pay for primary and secondary school too.  Awesome!

Government is a force for good.  It's an expression of our collective will and it enables us to do great things.  I love the internet.  I love spaceflight.  I love the fact that we have national parks, clean air to breath and water to drink.  I love fire and police protection.  I love that I can hop in my safe, fast car and drive anywhere in this nation.  I love that nearly everyone around me is reasonably well educated.  I love that people aren't just totally fucked if their lives take a negative turn.  I love that hospitals have to treat you, even if you don't have cash.  I could go on for a long time.

I get all that for a mere fraction of my income, meaning my taxes are the BEST DOLLARS I SPEND.  The ROI on all those investments is sky high.

I don't even understand the logic of the small government folks.  Are they agitating for some kind of Mad Max dystopia where everyone takes what they want by force?  Do they think groups of like-minded people will come together to form a collective to get stuff done (i.e. recreate government but in some different form).  Do they believe that all the things that make our lives work will somehow magically appear?  Do they believe that private companies will somehow give them a fairer deal then their own government (see Comcast, our health system, private education, Enron, Wall St., etc).  I just don't get it. 

No large organization is perfect; our government certainly isn't.  It can't and shouldn't do everything.  As has been pointed out here before, it's actually pretty small when compared to other governments around the world.  However, trying to burn it down is ridiculous.  The small government crowd must propose actual solutions to the problems we face.  How do we solve climate change if not by governmental regulation?  How do we fight poverty, hunger and inequality if not with government?  How do we ensure public safety and protection of rights?  How do we educate ourselves?  How do we do research that doesn't have immediate financial benefit?  How do we complete long-term, high-cost infrastructure projects?

[Gin1984]

depends on how impartial the third party was

the same thing happens in blue states

districts are aligned so that the conservative neighborhoods are a small minority

you really dont think ALL of california is that liberal, do you?

We all admit that Southern and Central California are moderate/conservative, it is just that liberals (in Ca) often live in dense space like San Fransisco and the rest of the bay area.  Also, our idea of a moderate/conservative is often more liberal that the rest of the country's conservatives.  For example, I have never met a tea partier in Northern Ca.

California has a Citizens Redistricting Commission that is charged with drawing voting boundaries.  The politicians themselves do not do it.  It's districts are not gerrymandered because of this.

http://wedrawthelines.ca.gov/

So arguing that California is that Democratic because of gerrymandered districts doesn't make any sense.  FYI

California isn't as Democratic as people think (only about 45% of voters are registered D), but it's not Republican either.  Most outsiders don't understand our state politics because it's completely backwards from most other parts of the country.  California is fiscally liberal and socially conservative. That's why there are chronic budget deficits and calls to raise taxes, along with ballot propositions outlawing gay marriage on two separate occasions,  against affirmative action, and in favor of denying all benefits to illegal immigrants including public schools (prop 187).  The ballot initiative to legalize pot also failed two years ago.

I would disagree with that.  Most people I know, in Northern Ca are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.  If you looked at the stats after prop 8 (which was written to confuse), the majority of the elderly (over 65) were anti-gay marriage, the majority under 35 were pro-gay marriage and the between group was within 5 points, towards not allowing gay marriage and that with the EXTREME push from outside money sources (and a push for AA voters which vote normally more conservatively in this matter). 

[Poorman]

I would disagree with that.  Most people I know, in Northern Ca are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.  If you looked at the stats after prop 8 (which was written to confuse), the majority of the elderly (over 65) were anti-gay marriage, the majority under 35 were pro-gay marriage and the between group was within 5 points, towards not allowing gay marriage and that with the EXTREME push from outside money sources (and a push for AA voters which vote normally more conservatively in this matter).

You've probably analyzed the politics of that particular ballot initiative more closely than I have, but the fact remains that it was passed once before and was already the law.  Prop 8 was written to amend the state Constitution in an attempt to prevent the courts from overturning the ban on same-sex marriage, which obviously didn't work.  My statements about fiscally liberal are based on the fact that whenever a bond measure appears on the ballot statewide, it almost always passes.  It's a big reason why the state has had trouble balancing the budget for so long despite such high taxes.

[greaper007]

Can anyone really explain why I should care about illegal immigrants?  All I hear are rediculuos arguments about people speaking Spanish (untrue, many second gen Hispanics can't even speak Spanish, just like most second gen Italians, Irish or in
My case, Welsh).    Taking jobs (again, the ones I don't want).    Or violence, yawn.

[Eric]

I would disagree with that.  Most people I know, in Northern Ca are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.  If you looked at the stats after prop 8 (which was written to confuse), the majority of the elderly (over 65) were anti-gay marriage, the majority under 35 were pro-gay marriage and the between group was within 5 points, towards not allowing gay marriage and that with the EXTREME push from outside money sources (and a push for AA voters which vote normally more conservatively in this matter).

You've probably analyzed the politics of that particular ballot initiative more closely than I have, but the fact remains that it was passed once before and was already the law.  Prop 8 was written to amend the state Constitution in an attempt to prevent the courts from overturning the ban on same-sex marriage, which obviously didn't work.  My statements about fiscally liberal are based on the fact that whenever a bond measure appears on the ballot statewide, it almost always passes.  It's a big reason why the state has had trouble balancing the budget for so long despite such high taxes.

I'm not a native, but I've been here a few years.  It was always my impression that the trouble balancing the budget lied more in the fact that the vast majority of the inflows were already spoken for, due to all of the spending Props.  As such, very little of the money coming into the general fund is not mandated by law to go to a certain budget sub-section, and that leaves very little money that has any flexibility at all.  So in an effort to reflect the true will of the people by making Propositions easy to get on the ballot, we've essentially hamstrung our elected representatives in their ability to actually do their job and allocate the money with any sort of flexibility.  And this results in the perpetual budget issues.  Is this not the general impression?

[Gin1984]

I would disagree with that.  Most people I know, in Northern Ca are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.  If you looked at the stats after prop 8 (which was written to confuse), the majority of the elderly (over 65) were anti-gay marriage, the majority under 35 were pro-gay marriage and the between group was within 5 points, towards not allowing gay marriage and that with the EXTREME push from outside money sources (and a push for AA voters which vote normally more conservatively in this matter).

You've probably analyzed the politics of that particular ballot initiative more closely than I have, but the fact remains that it was passed once before and was already the law.  Prop 8 was written to amend the state Constitution in an attempt to prevent the courts from overturning the ban on same-sex marriage, which obviously didn't work. My statements about fiscally liberal are based on the fact that whenever a bond measure appears on the ballot statewide, it almost always passes.  It's a big reason why the state has had trouble balancing the budget for so long despite such high taxes.

Actually it was in response to the "conservative" major of San Francisco who realized that there was no law against it in the state and started issuing marriage licenses. 

[griffin]

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security


i want it lethal to try and cross....a few may make it, but we wont have 800k crossing per year

for those here, we put together a plan to help them gain citizenship
we make it hard, but doable
and learning the language is one of the requirements

maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

Aaaaaaand this is why it is very hard to be sympathetic to tea party members. lol @ 7 years of being banned from the workforce while earning citizenship

P.s. "the illegals"?? Is this really a term people use?

[DoubleDown]

ETA:  Can you name one tea-party politician who is not nuts?  Or that even agrees with you on your list?  Cause right now, all I can think of who is representing "you" are right wing crazies.

Well, the prominent ones that come to mind are Michelle Bachmann, Ted Cruz, Sarah Palin, Steve Stockman, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Christine "I am not a witch" O'Donnell... oh wait, you said that are NOT crazy...

Ted Cruz, at his Tea Party appearance just last weekend in Texas, said, "I just spent a week in Washington, and it's sure good to be back in America." What an insulting ass -- goes to show just how purposely divisive these people are.

[DoubleDown]

Can anyone really explain why I should care about illegal immigrants?  All I hear are rediculuos arguments about people speaking Spanish (untrue, many second gen Hispanics can't even speak Spanish, just like most second gen Italians, Irish or in
My case, Welsh).    Taking jobs (again, the ones I don't want).    Or violence, yawn.

I wouldn't try to convince you that you should be disturbed by it, but there is a non-zero amount of money spent supporting illegal aliens. Just today, Congress approved an additional $2 Billion appropriation to house/feed and deal with the children being brought here illegally. Illegal residents also receive many forms of social welfare -- health care, food, housing, education subsidies, etc.

Violence is real from a substantial number of illegal immigrants. It's not the majority, but a significant number of illegal residents are fugitives from justice in their native countries, and come here as an escape. Many bring gang ties and violence here. I don't know about where you live, but gangs like MS-13 and other brutal Central American gangs are a real and very serious problem in some US cities, committing robberies, rapes, and murder. It's not just a hypothetical situation.

[gdgyva]

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security


i want it lethal to try and cross....a few may make it, but we wont have 800k crossing per year

for those here, we put together a plan to help them gain citizenship
we make it hard, but doable
and learning the language is one of the requirements

maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

Aaaaaaand this is why it is very hard to be sympathetic to tea party members. lol @ 7 years of being banned from the workforce while earning citizenship

P.s. "the illegals"?? Is this really a term people use?

Who said banned from workforce?

I said 7-10 years to gain citizenship

In the meantime, they sign in, register, and start the process

And they get a ID card to be used for employment

[Eric]

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security


i want it lethal to try and cross....a few may make it, but we wont have 800k crossing per year

for those here, we put together a plan to help them gain citizenship
we make it hard, but doable
and learning the language is one of the requirements

maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

Aaaaaaand this is why it is very hard to be sympathetic to tea party members. lol @ 7 years of being banned from the workforce while earning citizenship

P.s. "the illegals"?? Is this really a term people use?

Who said banned from workforce?

I said 7-10 years to gain citizenship

In the meantime, they sign in, register, and start the process

And they get a ID card to be used for employment

Except that literally NONE of your Tea Party representatives are for the process you're outlining.  What you're stating amounts to amnesty, which is something that is continually railed against.  So you proposing some half baked solution on an internet message board doesn't have anything to do with the Tea Party or their candidates.  In fact, as a nice tie in to the original thread topic, that's one of the main reasons Cantor got booted!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/10/cantor-faces-tea-party-challenge-that-focuses-on-amnesty-rap-in-reelection-bid/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/06/eric_cantor_loses_to_tea_party_s_david_brat_the_house_majority_leader_defeat.html

[thepokercab]

Illegal immigration is no more or less of a problem then its ever been.  The only difference is that over the past 30 years or so politicians have latched onto it as a fear building issue.  It started with the War on Drugs, continued with the War on Terror, and will keep going until there's no more money to be made from it. 

And now, we've built up a massive border security industrial complex, which just gets bigger and bigger.  More guns, cameras, drones, tanks, etc.. means more money in the pockets of people who build that shit.  Now we've created massive bureaucracies where the incentive isn't to solve a "problem" but is to get more money and resources. Stats, however murky there are, are used for one thing: how to get more money.   Border arrests are down?  Well, that means that people are getting through so we need to pour more money into our agency to jack up the numbers.  Border arrests are up?  Well, that just means we need more resources to fight the massive onslaught of people trying to cross the border. 

It means the "border problem" will never be solved as long as their are billions of dollars on the table for corporations and bureacracies. It's perfect.  Its a perpetual war with no end, which means perpetual dollars.  Its a massive subsidy to corporations.  Not only will the government gin up the demand, but they'll also request an unlimited supply.  What's not to love!   

It doesn't stop at the border either.  Local municipalities are trying to get in on the action. There is a fountain of money in "homeland security" which is why random police departments now have armored vehicles.  You know, in case Iran decides to invade Nashua, New Hampshire. 

Honestly, I really don't understand conservatives who clamor for more border security or law enforcement.  I mean, this is where government is the biggest, and only continues to get bigger.  It isn't in the EPA, or the Department of Education where government is out of control- its a militarized border and their local police department who gets a five million dollar grant in order to buy armored vehicles and automatic weapons, and whatever else they want.  Just weird.   

[wild wendella]

I have to admit that I stopped reading the replies before the end of the first page.  But I thought I'd interject this excellent article I happened upon today: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2012/07/29/were-no-24-were-no-24/

If all the libertarian/red/tea partiers honestly think the solution is less government, less taxes, less infrastructure and social services, and more for the 1%,  please read and re-read the above article.  There is a reason this country is going down-hill, relative to other 1st world countries who provide more for their citizens, MUCH more, protect wages, etc.  Lots of other countries provide a better environment for wealth.  Even Italy, Iceland and Spain beats us hands down.  Pay close attention to the graphic showing relative median net worth.

....

5. Gun ownership is sacred.

That's just sad.  Truly.  And it's the reason our children will continue to be shot -> in schools intentionally, in homes by accident, by neighborhood watch gun enthusiasts, etc.

[randymarsh]

Honestly, I really don't understand conservatives who clamor for more border security or law enforcement. I mean, this is where government is the biggest, and only continues to get bigger.  It isn't in the EPA, or the Department of Education where government is out of control- its a militarized border and their local police department who gets a five million dollar grant in order to buy armored vehicles and automatic weapons, and whatever else they want.  Just weird.

I'm going to go with racism and xenophobia.

Border security is such a circle jerk because there are many many people who simply don't like brown people. They especially don't like those people getting anything for free. Welfare queen trope. I think they also genuinely believe Mexicans are taking away jobs Americans are trying to get.

Law enforcement is so popular because it affects racial minorities the most. Drugs (specifically pot) being illegal means we can lock up lots of black and brown people. People in jail and with felony records can't vote. Who do racial minorities vote for? Criminal records make securing employment difficult, creating a permanent underclass. Just where they want them.

[greaper007]

Can anyone really explain why I should care about illegal immigrants?  All I hear are rediculuos arguments about people speaking Spanish (untrue, many second gen Hispanics can't even speak Spanish, just like most second gen Italians, Irish or in
My case, Welsh).    Taking jobs (again, the ones I don't want).    Or violence, yawn.

I wouldn't try to convince you that you should be disturbed by it, but there is a non-zero amount of money spent supporting illegal aliens. Just today, Congress approved an additional $2 Billion appropriation to house/feed and deal with the children being brought here illegally. Illegal residents also receive many forms of social welfare -- health care, food, housing, education subsidies, etc.

Violence is real from a substantial number of illegal immigrants. It's not the majority, but a significant number of illegal residents are fugitives from justice in their native countries, and come here as an escape. Many bring gang ties and violence here. I don't know about where you live, but gangs like MS-13 and other brutal Central American gangs are a real and very serious problem in some US cities, committing robberies, rapes, and murder. It's not just a hypothetical situation.

So how is this reaction different than any reaction native born citizens have had towards immigrants since the mid 19th century?     The Irish drink heavily, only listen to the pope, are lazy and perpetrate crime.    The Italians won't learn English and clog up the prison system.   Ditto the Chinese, Polish, Russian Jews...   

These are essentially the same arguments that have been debunked throughout history.    Try to find a second or third generation Irish, Italian or Chinese immigrant that can speak their native tongue.    Generally, prison populations rose for a generation or so for new immigrant groups until the immigrants integrated into society through education and work, and their prison population looked like any other group's population.

We need immigrants from a wide subsection of the socioeconomic world.    Low skill, low wage workers serve a place in our economy.     And their hard work generally propels their offspring towards solid middle to upper middle class professions.     Look at the stereotypes, Jewish doctors and accountants, the Indian and Asian intelligentsia.    I think $2 billion is a bargain for what will probably be a wave of innovators within a generation or two if this group follows the historical trend.

I don't really care how people get here.    And if you have the balls to put up a years worth of wages to pay a coyote to lead you across  a desert where a significant number of people succumb to dehydration, then have to evade border patrol.   All to move to some midwestern city where you make poop wages in a slaughterhouse all day.....Well, that sounds like the sort of character we want in our citizens.     I'd like to replace a few native born people I know personally with people that have that kind of intestinal fortitude.   

I say look the other way, if someone pays taxes and keeps their nose clean for 7-10 years, let them become citizens.

[thepokercab]

I don't really care how people get here.    And if you have the balls to put up a years worth of wages to pay a coyote to lead you across  a desert where a significant number of people succumb to dehydration, then have to evade border patrol.   All to move to some midwestern city where you make poop wages in a slaughterhouse all day.....Well, that sounds like the sort of character we want in our citizens.     I'd like to replace a few native born people I know personally with people that have that kind of intestinal fortitude.   

I say look the other way, if someone pays taxes and keeps their nose clean for 7-10 years, let them become citizens.

This pretty much sums up my view. I've lived in the southwest my whole life and I've worked and played with citizens and non-citizens, and I just don't care. Only rule I've seen is that there are assholes and non-assholes.  Where they were born doesn't really seem to have an effect on that rule.   

[Jamesqf]

As a counter point I guess what is frustrating to tea party folk who want a smaller government is that they see how inefficient government is at times. Not to say that no government would be better, but I think if people saw their tax dollars spent wisely rather than wasted on bureaucratic agencies that are not well run and programs that are overlapping then they would not be opposed to the extent they are about proposed tax increases and further government reach.

I have to disagree.  Yes, sometimes the government does things that should be done in an inefficient and wasteful fashion, but more often the problem is that it is doing things that I think should not be done at all.  The proper solution to the DEA, TSA, BATF, and many other agencies is not for them to do what they do more efficiently, it's to not do it, period.

Perhaps I should add that I'm definitely not a TEA party supporter.  Indeed, I doubt that they'd even accept me if I wanted to join, seeing that I'm a gay marriage & reproductive rights supporting, semi-tree hugging non-Christian.

[iris lily]

...Perhaps I should add that I'm definitely not a TEA party supporter.  Indeed, I doubt that they'd even accept me if I wanted to join, seeing that I'm a gay marriage & reproductive rights supporting, semi-tree hugging non-Christian.

You have a funny idea of what "tea party" means, then.

[smalllife]

...Perhaps I should add that I'm definitely not a TEA party supporter.  Indeed, I doubt that they'd even accept me if I wanted to join, seeing that I'm a gay marriage & reproductive rights supporting, semi-tree hugging non-Christian.

You have a funny idea of what "tea party" means, then.

Where are the tea party candidates that don't walk all over those values?  Every one I've ever read about or come across, especially the ones in my state, focus on exactly those priorities.  Anti-gay marriage, anti-women's health, don't care about the environment, pro-theocracy (but only of their "real" Christianity of course), etc.  Those are the hard-right issues that they force all Republican candidates to talk about, but every tea party person on this thread has dismissed that as "not the tea party".  I've yet to see one focus on the issues that the tea party backers on this thread epouse - smaller, more efficient government (workings towards that - not just stonewalling compromise on principle), immigration enforcement rather than just fear of immigrants as the bogeyman, pro-gun but with limits, and a willingness to actually get solutions in place.   If you show me such a candidate, and they are in my district, I might actually vote for them.  As it is, I'm not willing to give up my social freedoms and legal equality as a female atheist to put one of them in office because all I've seen them actually DO is deny my rights as an equal person under the law.

[GuitarStv]

As it is, a person could easily have more than 50% of the country vote for him and end up losing the election

This is not a hypothetical situation.  With the exception of John Kerry, Democratic Presidential candidates have won a majority of every popular vote since 1989.  And Republicans consistently lose the popular vote in the House of Representatives despite continuing to hold a rock-solid majority there.

But these two observations are exactly why the system won't be changed.  Creative redistricting and non-representative voting are the only means by which Republicans have been able to hold power since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Bill Clinton did not win a majority of the vote.  There were 3 candidates and he won the most votes of the three candidates, but it wasn't a majority.  If you add the votes together of the 2 non-Bill Clinton candidates, they won the majority of the vote in 1992.  I'm sure you can blame good old fashioned racism or something.

The benefit of representation by population rather than first past the post is that it matters less who's in power.  Neither party can pull any radically crazy shit (left wing or right wing) because pandering to an extreme base will damage their party's reputation country wide.  It also allows smaller parties to get voted in and therefore voice some minority opinions.  It sets up a system that forces more compromise and diversity . . . and as a centrist that seems like a good thing to me.  The current setup creates radical polarization that doesn't seem to work well in government.

[randymarsh]

If you show me such a candidate, and they are in my district, I might actually vote for them.  As it is, I'm not willing to give up my social freedoms and legal equality as a female atheist to put one of them in office because all I've seen them actually DO is deny my rights as an equal person under the law.

I'd honestly like to know too. Show me a tea party candidate who supports: ending the drug war, getting rid of the TSA, cutting the defense budget, and doesn't believe the US is a "Christian nation" and I'd likely give them a shot. The only ones I can think of come close to this are Rand Paul and Paul Ryan, but only barely. They have their own baggage like being pro-life and wanting to replace Medicare with a voucher program. No thanks.

[gdgyva]

...Perhaps I should add that I'm definitely not a TEA party supporter.  Indeed, I doubt that they'd even accept me if I wanted to join, seeing that I'm a gay marriage & reproductive rights supporting, semi-tree hugging non-Christian.

You have a funny idea of what "tea party" means, then.

Where are the tea party candidates that don't walk all over those values?  Every one I've ever read about or come across, especially the ones in my state, focus on exactly those priorities.  Anti-gay marriage, anti-women's health, don't care about the environment, pro-theocracy (but only of their "real" Christianity of course), etc.  Those are the hard-right issues that they force all Republican candidates to talk about, but every tea party person on this thread has dismissed that as "not the tea party".  I've yet to see one focus on the issues that the tea party backers on this thread epouse - smaller, more efficient government (workings towards that - not just stonewalling compromise on principle), immigration enforcement rather than just fear of immigrants as the bogeyman, pro-gun but with limits, and a willingness to actually get solutions in place.   If you show me such a candidate, and they are in my district, I might actually vote for them.  As it is, I'm not willing to give up my social freedoms and legal equality as a female atheist to put one of them in office because all I've seen them actually DO is deny my rights as an equal person under the law.

what is the old saying

the squeaky wheel gets the grease

well in the case of politics, the ones that are way out there get the press

there are versions on the left.....on the right.....and in the tea party

The real people in the tea party arent the ones getting the press....

they are the ones knocking on doors, attending meetings, and trying to come up with some answers to the vast problems that face this nation

the michelle bachman's of the world do NOT speak for the majority of us....i guarantee you that

Just as Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton doesnt speak for the majority of liberals

There are nut cases on all sides of the aisles

And most of the quieter tea party candidates never get their name in the press, or a chance at the debates

Neither side wants them there.....

But if this election proves any one point, the tea party isnt dead....and we arent going away

I dont agree with all of the political platforms....but i agree with enough to know they are who i side with

[gdgyva]

Can anyone really explain why I should care about illegal immigrants?  All I hear are rediculuos arguments about people speaking Spanish (untrue, many second gen Hispanics can't even speak Spanish, just like most second gen Italians, Irish or in
My case, Welsh).    Taking jobs (again, the ones I don't want).    Or violence, yawn.

I wouldn't try to convince you that you should be disturbed by it, but there is a non-zero amount of money spent supporting illegal aliens. Just today, Congress approved an additional $2 Billion appropriation to house/feed and deal with the children being brought here illegally. Illegal residents also receive many forms of social welfare -- health care, food, housing, education subsidies, etc.

Violence is real from a substantial number of illegal immigrants. It's not the majority, but a significant number of illegal residents are fugitives from justice in their native countries, and come here as an escape. Many bring gang ties and violence here. I don't know about where you live, but gangs like MS-13 and other brutal Central American gangs are a real and very serious problem in some US cities, committing robberies, rapes, and murder. It's not just a hypothetical situation.

overcrowding of schools in areas
no work permits, so mostly they work under the table for cash reducing overall pay in the area
violence is an issue....not with all....not even a majority, but it is there
crime tends to go up in counties where a lot of them reside
if they drive, a lot do so without insurance.....i know.... a lot of our citizens do this also
a lot of these people get into programs for different types of aid.....food stamps, welfare, housing, etc

out of a population of approximately 350 million, 12-14 million are here illegally
i dont see us kicking them out....it is a pipe dream and i wont go chasing it

what i and many others would like, is to shut off the spigots though....
we may not be able to send those here back, but we should be able to keep another 12-14 million form jumping the border

[gdgyva]

Now on to the immigration deal there will be no reform passed in Congress any time soon. The shocking results of thousands of children illegally crossing the southern border has pretty much put an end to comprehensive immigration reform. Everybody knows in order to assimilate illegal aliens already here you have to first secure the border. Because, if you do not, millions of folks will flood into the country looking for working papers. The Obama administration claims the border is secure. Now we know that is not true as children, children are flooding into the country creating a humanitarian crisis.

The American people should be furious that the border is still out of control 13 years after 9/11. There no excuse. None. Until the borders of the USA are secure. No pathway for citizenship for illegal aliens can be considered.

And a note to all you left-wing loons out there -- why do you think all these kids are coming to the USA now? Why? Because they know once they get here they can stay here. The situation is disgraceful.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2014/06/12/bill-oreilly-there-tea-party-resurgence-over-immigration

just another point of view other than mine

[smalllife]

Where are the tea party candidates that don't walk all over those values?  Every one I've ever read about or come across, especially the ones in my state, focus on exactly those priorities.  Anti-gay marriage, anti-women's health, don't care about the environment, pro-theocracy (but only of their "real" Christianity of course), etc.  Those are the hard-right issues that they force all Republican candidates to talk about, but every tea party person on this thread has dismissed that as "not the tea party".  I've yet to see one focus on the issues that the tea party backers on this thread epouse - smaller, more efficient government (workings towards that - not just stonewalling compromise on principle), immigration enforcement rather than just fear of immigrants as the bogeyman, pro-gun but with limits, and a willingness to actually get solutions in place.   If you show me such a candidate, and they are in my district, I might actually vote for them.  As it is, I'm not willing to give up my social freedoms and legal equality as a female atheist to put one of them in office because all I've seen them actually DO is deny my rights as an equal person under the law.

what is the old saying

the squeaky wheel gets the grease

well in the case of politics, the ones that are way out there get the press

there are versions on the left.....on the right.....and in the tea party

The real people in the tea party arent the ones getting the press....

they are the ones knocking on doors, attending meetings, and trying to come up with some answers to the vast problems that face this nation

the michelle bachman's of the world do NOT speak for the majority of us....i guarantee you that

Just as Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton doesnt speak for the majority of liberals

There are nut cases on all sides of the aisles

And most of the quieter tea party candidates never get their name in the press, or a chance at the debates

Neither side wants them there.....

But if this election proves any one point, the tea party isnt dead....and we arent going away

I dont agree with all of the political platforms....but i agree with enough to know they are who i side with

Care to actually name a name of these under-the-radar Tea Party candidates so I can actually take a look at their platform?

I took a good look at Bratt's during the race and he seems like the standard talking points on some things but a far-right approach to individual "liberty" that would erode any confidence I might have in his election.  He sounds exactly like the Michelle Bachmann's of the Tea Party world, just without the extreme views on record yet. 

From his website:

"That faith in God, as recognized by our Founding Fathers is essential to the moral fiber of the Nation." - I vehemently disagree and this mindset is dangerous in a politician for those who believe in the separation of church and state, which apparently isn't included in the following, also a quote from his website.  "That the Federal Government must preserve individual liberty by observing Constitutional limitations".   

Also, "Human life is sacred, as proclaimed by our founding documents, and I will always support laws that protect life. Our fundamental rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness precede the existence of government and come from God, the Author of Nature."  Code for anti-choice and an intrusion into yet another quote from his issues "We must restore the relationship between doctor and patient."

Is Bratt supposed to be one of these under-the-radar Tea Party candidates?

[randymarsh]

The real people in the tea party arent the ones getting the press....

they are the ones knocking on doors, attending meetings, and trying to come up with some answers to the vast problems that face this nation

the michelle bachman's of the world do NOT speak for the majority of us....i guarantee you that

But you're electing Michelle Bachman and people like her! If they don't speak for the majority of you, why in the world are you voting for them?

[prosaic]

I'm not sure that voting in a person who is a member of a party devoted to making government as ineffectual as possible is a positive change for the people of Virginia though.

i have been to a bunch of the grass roots meetings of the tea party....

Not "grassroots."

Astroturfed. Fake grassroots movement. The Koch brothers have dumped millions into creating the Tea Party.

In July 2010, David Koch told New York magazine: "I've never been to a Tea Party event. No one representing the Tea Party has ever even approached me." But a fascinating new film – (Astro)Turf Wars, by Taki Oldham – tells a fuller story. Oldham infiltrated some of the movement's key organising events, including the 2009 Defending the American Dream summit, convened by a group called Americans for Prosperity (AFP). The film shows David Koch addressing the summit. "Five years ago," he explains, "my brother Charles and I provided the funds to start Americans for Prosperity. It's beyond my wildest dreams how AFP has grown into this enormous organisation."

A convener tells the crowd how AFP mobilised opposition to Barack Obama's healthcare reforms. "We hit the button and we started doing the Twittering and Facebook and the phonecalls and the emails, and you turned up!" Then a series of AFP organisers tell Mr Koch how they have set up dozens of Tea Party events in their home states. He nods and beams from the podium like a chief executive receiving rosy reports from his regional sales directors. Afterwards, the delegates crowd into AFP workshops, where they are told how to run further Tea Party events.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/oct/25/tea-party-koch-brothers

[randymarsh]

Now on to the immigration deal there will be no reform passed in Congress any time soon. The shocking results of thousands of children illegally crossing the southern border has pretty much put an end to comprehensive immigration reform. Everybody knows in order to assimilate illegal aliens already here you have to first secure the border. Because, if you do not, millions of folks will flood into the country looking for working papers. The Obama administration claims the border is secure. Now we know that is not true as children, children are flooding into the country creating a humanitarian crisis.

The American people should be furious that the border is still out of control 13 years after 9/11. There no excuse. None. Until the borders of the USA are secure. No pathway for citizenship for illegal aliens can be considered.

And a note to all you left-wing loons out there -- why do you think all these kids are coming to the USA now? Why? Because they know once they get here they can stay here. The situation is disgraceful.

The 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas. I'm way more concerned about one of these tea party nut jobs shooting up an abortion clinic than I am about another 9/11.

Left wing loons? We're not the ones who think Obama was born in Kenya and is the anti-Christ. Kids are coming to the US because their parents take them when they move. I don't think many 10 year olds are crossing the border by themselves.

[gdgyva]

do you believe 14 yr olds?

Sickness spreads among immigrant children at U.S. border facility as fears grow over cramped conditions
Border control agents fear a spread of disease as the flood of children entering the U.S. illegally via Mexico grows
Federal facilities have become overloaded and children have been transported to a makeshift housing center in Nogales, Arizona
Border control agents have had a rabies outbreak and fear a host of new ailments could be imminent
A spokesman for a border patrol facility in Texas said the children are not being screened for diseases
Conditions are cramped and mattresses, medical supplies and counseling services are forthcoming for the Nogales facility
Children at the facility have reportedly complained about the food, saying it's making them ill and they have to throw it out
As many as 80,000 illegal immigrant children, many traveling alone, are expected to be apprehended crossing the U.S. border this year
Shocking photos leaked out of a Texas holding facility show minors packed in overcrowded rooms

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2654706/Immigrant-children-left-sickened-food-U-S-border-facility-fears-grow-spread-disease-cramped-conditions.html

[gdgyva]

i wont convince you all

you wont convince me

you believe all the tea partiers are idiots....and far right wingnuts

believe what you will

it is after all, still a free country

great debate for a while....thanks

but work calls

[fallstoclimb]

Can I ask a question?  This is risking a thread derail but I really don't feel like wading through google on this one.  Why are Tea Partiers so focused on illegal immigration? 

I don't actually know much about the Tea Party, other than they definitely want me out of a job (fed employee).

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

One caveat is that the tea party can be hard to pin down. Some surveys have found them to be more educated than average and more female than male. But it seems overall the candidates they support are extremely far right Republicans. They claim to want the government to spend less money, but I've never heard one of their candidates support cutting the defense budget or social security/medicare, which combined account for about half our expenses.

Haha when I asked I was really hoping for a different answer than racism.  That's basically what I was assuming.  Just wondering if they had a clear argument for why they are so focused on it.

[randymarsh]

....and far right wingnuts

Show me the candidates you guys support who aren't and I can re-evaluate my position. You just keep going on and on about how the "real" tea party isn't like that.

[gdgyva]

Gary Johnson   New Mexico

Rand Paul    Kentucky

Neither is my perfect candidate, but they are closer than many

[GuitarStv]

Gary Johnson   New Mexico

Rand Paul    Kentucky

Neither is my perfect candidate, but they are closer than many

Skimming the wiki page for Gary Johnson, he actually seems to be a pretty reasonable guy.  Is he a tea party member though?