The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: englishteacheralex on September 20, 2016, 04:31:20 PM
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We are a growing family, got married in 2013: husband, 35, licensed clinical social worker for the VA; wife, 36, teacher with a masters in education; toddler aged 2, and one baby girl on the way in December. TL;DR: We are looking for an interesting missions opportunity in the next 5-10 years, but not sure exactly what that would be. Purpose in posting here is looking for specific ideas that we could keep tabs on over time to see if something opened up.
Here are some relevant stats:
We live in Honolulu.
Combined annual income: $140k
Student loan: $40k, will be forgiven in 2020, until then we are on an income based repayment plan of $500/month (capped at that amount)
Mortgage/HOA fee: $2200/month
Extra mortgage payment: $800/month
Giving: $1200/month
Retirement savings: $1800/month (just started ramping this up this year)
Savings: We have $25k liquid, $75k in IRA/403(b), and about $60k of equity in a $385k condo at 3.75 interest that we just bought last year.
No other debt. Our lifestyle overhead is very low apart from the student loan, housing, and childcare (will be $2000/month after #2).
A lot of our philosophy intersects with the MMM community, except our purpose is not exactly to retire early, but instead to achieve financial independence so that we could be a missionary family that didn't have to raise support but instead could fund ourselves.
The question is...where would we go? What would we do? We don't have a clear vision or calling for this. Considering our ability to live extremely simply, financial independence should be ours in as little as 5 years (but maybe more like 10).
I have been a secondary ed English teacher for my entire professional life, and love teaching very, very much. As a clinical social worker, my husband has a lot of flexibility and versatility in the jobs he is qualified for, as well (he's actually done several things over the years, all of which seem like they could easily translate to missionary work. Right now he works with homeless vets to get them housing and services.)
One option we consider is that maybe our home is our mission--our lack of vision for missionary work when we pray about this sometimes seems to indicate that our strength is in giving and in our professional vocations, and that we should earn as much as we can and over time give more and more to missionaries who are serving abroad. We already support a few, but it would be a neat goal to perhaps fully support a family at some point.
The thought of living, serving, and sharing the Gospel abroad has filled me with joy for many years, however. My husband feels convicted about it as well.
Thoughts?
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friends of ours from church - H/W, 3 young girls - are currently on a mission with this group:
https://www.familymissionscompany.com/
b
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Teaching Expat in central or South America? Just a thought. I love Nicaragua personally, but many areas need good teachers even moreso than the states. As a LCSW, your husband could teach at a university. Have you considered (or done) any short term trips? Many groups fly out of the US for a two-three week trip to build hospitals and orphanages overseas. There are also options for zero cost of living situations once the kids are out of the house (I know its a long way off) but companies like MercyShips and others always need good people. You could FIRE to them, get paid and have all cost of living paid while the stache grows even more.
One thing I have recognized is a few short years of work is the difference between 1/2 million in the portfolio at age 100 and 10 million or more. FIRE'ing a certain way (with an extra low SWR) could also enable you to amass tons of wealth and build your own hospital / school system / network of orphanages in another country by the time of your death.
Certainly interested to see what gets posted in here and follow along with you englishteacheralex as I have pondered some of the same things myself.
(Bachelor's Degree in Bible Studies and Ministry, Masters in progress in Psychology, and a Christian who thinks America has the most pathetic excuse for Christianity in the last 350 years).
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Christian authors Larry Burkett and Randy Alcorn have validated the role of gifted earners who are able to earn large amounts of money to fund the evangelical work of others. You can pursue local opportunities to serve and share the Gospel on the side (while not neglecting work and family responsibilities), until God grants more specific direction. You might gain some experience that God will want to use later; God often uses seemingly wasted time very economically later on. Also, I would recommend living lightly where you are, and being prepared to jump if/when God says "Jump".
One area here which badly needs work is in financial education for the disadvantaged.
A couple that we are friends with recently left Wycliffe Bible Translators--they couldn't raise enough funding.
I believe that some/most mission organizations would still want you to work on creating a network of prayer support for your mission work, even if you were self-funded. Also, that these organizations are usually willing to talk with potential missionaries this early in the process. Some can help you evaluate your spiritual gifts and life journey, and will try to match you with opportunities. I'd also recommend checking with your local pastor/church/denomination.
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Are there no homeless missions in Hawaii? What about this place: http://riveroflifemission.com/
That way you can spread the "gospel" in a christian environment without trying to convert the foreign non christian, poor, needy in desperate need of aid trying to grab onto any lifeboat that comes by . . .
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We work at River of Life all the time--it's a wonderful organization very near to our hearts! But we also believe in foreign missions.
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If you teach English, why not try a Buddhist monastery: https://www.buddhistmonasteries.org/volunteer-projects/volunteer-in-nepal-teaching-english-at-community-schools/ (https://www.buddhistmonasteries.org/volunteer-projects/volunteer-in-nepal-teaching-english-at-community-schools/)
You can keep the gospel in your pocket and see how others live their faith.
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If you teach English, why not try a Buddhist monastery: https://www.buddhistmonasteries.org/volunteer-projects/volunteer-in-nepal-teaching-english-at-community-schools/ (https://www.buddhistmonasteries.org/volunteer-projects/volunteer-in-nepal-teaching-english-at-community-schools/)
You can keep the gospel in your pocket and see how others live their faith.
Really?
Sorry eta.
Anyways... Yes, helping support others is an very valuable ministry. There are tons of people doing extremely good things that need support. Maybe contribute to them for a while (until fire)? It seems after fire your possibilities are rather endless. Plus I consider it a massive advantage to your kids to see how people in other parts of the world live by living alongside them doing something good. As an english teacher and social worker combo, basically ever country is open to you (including China) and will have some sort of need. It is also quite possible that the conflicting directions is both you needing to fulfill a current ministry (like supporting someone else) combined with getting ready for something yourselves.
Whose discipling you? My first steps after prayer would be to ask them about it.
Honestly, its life. No need to rush things. :)
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If you teach English, why not try a Buddhist monastery: https://www.buddhistmonasteries.org/volunteer-projects/volunteer-in-nepal-teaching-english-at-community-schools/ (https://www.buddhistmonasteries.org/volunteer-projects/volunteer-in-nepal-teaching-english-at-community-schools/)
You can keep the gospel in your pocket and see how others live their faith.
Seems a little disingenuous...we believe in actually preaching the gospel, which I realize can be an unpopular view. But to serve with that agenda in an organization of a different faith would probably be even more unpopular!
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If you teach English, why not try a Buddhist monastery: https://www.buddhistmonasteries.org/volunteer-projects/volunteer-in-nepal-teaching-english-at-community-schools/ (https://www.buddhistmonasteries.org/volunteer-projects/volunteer-in-nepal-teaching-english-at-community-schools/)
You can keep the gospel in your pocket and see how others live their faith.
Really?
Sorry eta.
Anyways... Yes, helping support others is an very valuable ministry. There are tons of people doing extremely good things that need support. Maybe contribute to them for a while (until fire)? It seems after fire your possibilities are rather endless. Plus I consider it a massive advantage to your kids to see how people in other parts of the world live by living alongside them doing something good. As an english teacher and social worker combo, basically ever country is open to you (including China) and will have some sort of need. It is also quite possible that the conflicting directions is both you needing to fulfill a current ministry (like supporting someone else) combined with getting ready for something yourselves.
Whose discipling you? My first steps after prayer would be to ask them about it.
Honestly, its life. No need to rush things. :)
Thanks for the insight! We're just looking for ideas to spitball around and names of organizations that do work abroad that we might be able to help out with. There definitely is no need to rush things, but we definitely have a desire to have our kids live in a different part of the world when they are school age, as you mention. Sometimes this kind of thing takes years to come to fruition, so we're just keeping our eyes peeled.
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By keeping your gospel in your pocket I meant go there without the "agenda". Go there to learn how people of another faith live, expose yourself to their way of life. Who knows, maybe you will be the one that converts.
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Thanks for the insight! We're just looking for ideas to spitball around and names of organizations that do work abroad that we might be able to help out with. There definitely is no need to rush things, but we definitely have a desire to have our kids live in a different part of the world when they are school age, as you mention. Sometimes this kind of thing takes years to come to fruition, so we're just keeping our eyes peeled.
In that case:
Compassion International - http://www.compassion.com/ (http://www.compassion.com/)
Resourcing Christian Education International - http://www.rce-international.org/ (http://www.rce-international.org/)
Mercy Ships - https://www.mercyships.org/ (https://www.mercyships.org/)
Habitat for Humanity International - http://www.habitat.org/ (http://www.habitat.org/)
Wycliff Bible Translators - https://www.wycliffe.org/?gclid=CIOJyLrKoc8CFUsvgQodZCUFcA (https://www.wycliffe.org/?gclid=CIOJyLrKoc8CFUsvgQodZCUFcA)
Youth With A Mission - http://www.ywam.org/ (http://www.ywam.org/)
All do overseas work of different types and all would love to have a self-sustaining FIRE'd family come on board. I recommend these specifically (and have worked directly with a few of them). :)
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Why go out of country?
TeachforAmerica --- look into the underserved communities, typically South Dakota / Mississippi / or right now, Oklahoma...,
No reason why you can not find an area within the USA to serve, and still have job opportunities to donate $'s too. Working with native peoples here in America can have many of the similar experiences that you may be looking for overseas. The key difference may be keeping your gospel to the community functions and out of the classroom (which you have to do in many missions around the world, too, even those sponsored by religious organizations).
Here is an exerpt from the South Dakota TeachforAmerica page:
The Lakota sovereign nations on the Pine Ridge, Rosebud, Standing Rock, and Lower Brule reservations are located in some of the poorest counties in the United States. Many Lakota families struggle with issues of employment, housing, and healthcare, and the educational landscape is in stark contrast with that of the state's more affluent communities. Fewer than 10 percent of Native adults hold a bachelor's degree, and among students living on reservations, less than one in three reads on grade level.
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Why go out of country?
TeachforAmerica --- look into the underserved communities, typically South Dakota / Mississippi / or right now, Oklahoma...,
No reason why you can not find an area within the USA to serve, and still have job opportunities to donate $'s too. Working with native peoples here in America can have many of the similar experiences that you may be looking for overseas. The key difference may be keeping your gospel to the community functions and out of the classroom (which you have to do in many missions around the world, too, even those sponsored by religious organizations).
Here is an exerpt from the South Dakota TeachforAmerica page:
The Lakota sovereign nations on the Pine Ridge, Rosebud, Standing Rock, and Lower Brule reservations are located in some of the poorest counties in the United States. Many Lakota families struggle with issues of employment, housing, and healthcare, and the educational landscape is in stark contrast with that of the state's more affluent communities. Fewer than 10 percent of Native adults hold a bachelor's degree, and among students living on reservations, less than one in three reads on grade level.
We have lots of friends who did Teach for America, and it's a great program! But I am a state certified teacher with 14 years of experience--I can just get a job with an underserved school district, I don't have to go with TFA. In fact, I taught in a school that employed TFA teachers on Oahu for eight years.
We are really looking for a Christian missionary organization--serving within the community in a secular way is something we have both done for years, and it's wonderful! But we actually do see value in serving with an explicitly Christian organization, at least for a season.
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Thanks for the insight! We're just looking for ideas to spitball around and names of organizations that do work abroad that we might be able to help out with. There definitely is no need to rush things, but we definitely have a desire to have our kids live in a different part of the world when they are school age, as you mention. Sometimes this kind of thing takes years to come to fruition, so we're just keeping our eyes peeled.
In that case:
Compassion International - http://www.compassion.com/ (http://www.compassion.com/)
Resourcing Christian Education International - http://www.rce-international.org/ (http://www.rce-international.org/)
Mercy Ships - https://www.mercyships.org/ (https://www.mercyships.org/)
Habitat for Humanity International - http://www.habitat.org/ (http://www.habitat.org/)
Wycliff Bible Translators - https://www.wycliffe.org/?gclid=CIOJyLrKoc8CFUsvgQodZCUFcA (https://www.wycliffe.org/?gclid=CIOJyLrKoc8CFUsvgQodZCUFcA)
Youth With A Mission - http://www.ywam.org/ (http://www.ywam.org/)
All do overseas work of different types and all would love to have a self-sustaining FIRE'd family come on board. I recommend these specifically (and have worked directly with a few of them). :)
Oh, excellent! Thanks!!
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You may want to post on a christian forum then. This is forum is full of people of different religions or no religion. If you want someone to simply point out a place do to missionary work (since you seemed pretty set on doing it despite what you first posted) you should just ask the question on some religious forum of some kind.
MOD NOTE: Human you are needling needlessly. You have stated your opinion, the OP is looking for different alternatives which they have articulated. If you can't positively contribute to the thread, then there are lots of other threads for you to do so.
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You may want to post on a christian forum then. This is forum is full of people of different religions or no religion. If you want someone to simply point out a place do to missionary work (since you seemed pretty set on doing it despite what you first posted) you should just ask the question on some religious forum of some kind.
Well, I have read a lot of great posts from Christians on the forum, and figured that they might have some good ideas! And I also figured that non-Christians just...wouldn't be interested? Just like I don't worry/comment on posts about things about which I have no ideas/interest?
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I have an interest in seeing the end to conversion and I did post an idea. Helping should be more important than converting which is why I posted the link to a Buddhist Monastery. If you want everyone to chime in and say conversion is great, I'm not sure why you would think that would happen with a forum full of atheists. This is not an attack, I'm just trying to show you that there are other alternatives. You asked for thoughts and here they are.
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I have an interest in seeing the end to conversion and I did post an idea. Helping should be more important than converting which is why I posted the link to a Buddhist Monastery. If you want everyone to chime in and say conversion is great, I'm not sure why you would think that would happen with a forum full of atheists. This is not an attack, I'm just trying to show you that there are other alternatives. You asked for thoughts and here they are.
Thats pretty blatantly putting words in her mouth. Just saying.
Your also confusing missionary work with proselytizing. Not the same thing though one generally leads to another.
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He pretty much admitted to wanting to convert by stating he couldn't work in a monastery with his agenda . .
I see I got modded down so I guess it isn't polite to be trying to convince others to stay away from foreign countries with "help" in one hand and "oh look what's this a gospel!" in another. Have at it folks!
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Why go out of country?
TeachforAmerica --- look into the underserved communities, typically South Dakota / Mississippi / or right now, Oklahoma...,
No reason why you can not find an area within the USA to serve, and still have job opportunities to donate $'s too. Working with native peoples here in America can have many of the similar experiences that you may be looking for overseas. The key difference may be keeping your gospel to the community functions and out of the classroom (which you have to do in many missions around the world, too, even those sponsored by religious organizations).
Here is an exerpt from the South Dakota TeachforAmerica page:
The Lakota sovereign nations on the Pine Ridge, Rosebud, Standing Rock, and Lower Brule reservations are located in some of the poorest counties in the United States. Many Lakota families struggle with issues of employment, housing, and healthcare, and the educational landscape is in stark contrast with that of the state's more affluent communities. Fewer than 10 percent of Native adults hold a bachelor's degree, and among students living on reservations, less than one in three reads on grade level.
We have lots of friends who did Teach for America, and it's a great program! But I am a state certified teacher with 14 years of experience--I can just get a job with an underserved school district, I don't have to go with TFA. In fact, I taught in a school that employed TFA teachers on Oahu for eight years.
We are really looking for a Christian missionary organization--serving within the community in a secular way is something we have both done for years, and it's wonderful! But we actually do see value in serving with an explicitly Christian organization, at least for a season.
Ah, ok then. Our "on reserve" teachers here require full credentials, and it really is like being in another country (which you sort of are)... AND some of them would have a definite "Christian outreach" feel. When I compare the work to be done in Canada on rural reserves, with the work missionaries I know are doing, there is not that much difference... up to and including starting each community session with group prayer, rehabilitating the churches, etc... Maybe you want a mission to northern Ontario or Northern Manitoba, :-)
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There's is a TON of work for both teachers and mental health professionals in China. With your and your husband's professional credentials, you can get into a lot of countries. Both of you could even continue to earn salaries (similar or more than what you are currently making in the states, depending on where you end up), and serve and share in a multitude of ways. Both of your unique sets of skills are highly valued here and will open doors for you to share your values and way of living.
Teaching has always been a good profession to get into developing countries. Mental health has been harder because many developing countries don't have the infrastructure to support it yet. However, China has been focusing increasingly on the mental health field and there has been an explosion of opportunities as the country pours more resources into developing local talent.
Just keep your hearts and minds open; I'm sure he will lead the way and open doors when/if the time is right.
I wish I could say more but I have to be careful with what and how much I reveal. All I feel comfortable saying is that we were in a similar situation about 10 years ago and have gone through a journey similar to yours. Apologies for the vagueness of my post.
Since you are both licensed professionals, you might also want to look at PESI (Professional and Educational Services International). I know the founder, and they are an organization that shares your Values. I also know professionals with Interserve, so you may want to check them out. For example, one of my friends with interserve works with an organization that gets women in prostitution off the street and provides trauma counseling and job training to them (she does the trauma therapy part).
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The Salvation Army is fairly big in Australia, they do a lot of local work and might do mission work as well?
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This is not at all my scene, so I might be off-base, but what about the colonias along the border with Mexico? Your kids could retain the advantages of growing up in the United States while you work to improve the lives of people truly living in Third World conditions.
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You should be commended for wanting to give your life to serving others.
The options for missionary work are endless. You can even create your own mission or find a way to enhance an existing one.
This is one of my favorites below started by a local guy. It's the type of thing that would lead my heart to mission work. My wife is from a poor country in South America and the first time you see
actual poverty will change you for life.
https://trashmountain.com/
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Very interesting topic because our family has had some of the same thoughts regarding being drawn to missions. Some of those I will share with you.
Those who go, those who pray for them, and those who support them all have a part and a reward in it. To have credibility with someone ( to witness) first they must know your character a bit. Your conduct sets you apart, and then you have an opportunity to tell the WHY. All this to say that, especially to a stranger to God, you must build a bridge and some common ground. Your professions could be a splendid in this regard. Teaching English in foreign countries and serving the people could be that bridge.
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What a lot of very helpful feedback. Things I want to follow up on:
1. Who is discipling us? Good question! This forced me to take a hard look at our conviction on the subject, which up until now has been mostly a lot of excited "what if?" evening conversations on the couch after our kid goes to bed. Nothing wrong with that, but we should be having conversations about this IRL with real people who know us well. I think I'll be scheduling some coffee dates with a few members of our church to talk this through.
2. Being self-funding has its ups and downs. We've supported so many missionaries during our marriage, but I always think it seems horrible for them to have to spend so much time raising support. I've heard a few people explain that the fundraising piece is actually an important part of the process, not just a nuisance to be tolerated as a means to an end. I've always been good at saving money and living simply, so I always figured if we went to the missions field we'd just pay our own way so that we didn't have to waste all that time fundraising. BUT...I really need to think this through more. I can be very self-sufficient, which isn't exactly a virtue from a Christian perspective. Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also...the missionaries we support are extremely precious to us and we are thankful for the chance to be a part of what they're doing. It might be looking at it the wrong way to think that just supporting ourselves would be easier for everyone, since it would deny others the opportunity we've had to provide support.
3. So many great practical ideas/organizations to investigate! I was not raised in a Christian environment, so I'm not always terribly familiar with all the many organizations that do missionary work abroad. There are often small, niche opportunities/organizations that can come up through word of mouth, and that was sort of what I was hoping for by posting here.
Thanks so much for the encouragement/ideas.
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Great idea to talk IRL.
You can be self supporting but still raise money for your extended mission, if you pay others locally for their work. I contribute to those missionaries, but not to the ones in need of their own ticket and living support. Awareness is a large part of this.
Can you plan an outreach tour of missions you are interested in ( on your dollar) and bring back what you find out to your community? That builds trust and awareness in others and gives you a taste to help decide with less than a month commitment initially. As you say, the proces can take years.
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My friend Pat works for Manna Group of Ministries. She works with their orphanages/schools. I went to high school with her and recently reconnected. As others have said here, she stressed that you cannot fully understand need until you visit the poorest of the poor in parts of India. I don't have any direct line on opportunities they might have. I do know that she seems very happy and fulfilled by her work.
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I don't have any leads for you but would like to understand your thought process better.
Why do you feel that you need to connect with a missions organization to do missionary work? Could you move to a country and help people without needing the credentials of a supporting missionary organization?
Are you opposed to getting jobs in a foreign country and then focusing on befriending your neighbors and coworkers and present the gospel to them?
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You can volunteer for extended periods of time with the Missionaries of Charity. Generally you would contact the community in the area you are interested in.
Here's a bit more info (looks like they could use a volunteer who knows some html!):
http://www.motherteresa.org/07_family/Volunteering/v_cal.html#Contactmc2
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Having grown up in Africa, I admit that I feel some discomfort with the idea of missionary work. Its one thing entirely to live your principles and be in service to those in need but another thing entirely to convert people or to tie aid/assistance to church attendance etc.
Please think about the ethics involved here. These are people who don't have many options. By all means, donate your time but skip the preaching please, unless of course they already share your faith.
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Having grown up in Africa, I admit that I feel some discomfort with the idea of missionary work. Its one thing entirely to live your principles and be in service to those in need but another thing entirely to convert people or to tie aid/assistance to church attendance etc.
Please think about the ethics involved here. These are people who don't have many options. By all means, donate your time but skip the preaching please, unless of course they already share your faith.
I'm just gonna ask. Where are ANY actual examples of this happening in recent history?
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If you go through a missions organization (SBC International Mission Board, etc), then you will probably have fundraising as part of your preparation to go. You'll also probably need to feel a much stronger call than you currently feel. There is a lot of pressure on your family and marriage and personal faith when you've been sent on mission somewhere. As such, you need to have a strong conviction that this is the purpose your family has been called to.
What might suit your situation better is to go work part time abroad in an unreached area and then start a home church. Your financial position would make it so you wouldn't be boxed in on employment options and could also spend plenty of time doing humanitarian service or volunteering and caring for the poor/homeless. Then you could start a Bible study/home church as you build relationship and friendships and share the gospel that way.
What's appealing to me about going to an unreached area is that these are not people who have heard about Christianity and said no. These are people who've never even had the opportunity to hear and make a decision.
My recommendation is to focus less on the organizations right now and focus more on really seeking out whether this is your calling as a family. I'd start with reading all David Platt's books.
Good luck!
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Having grown up in Africa, I admit that I feel some discomfort with the idea of missionary work. Its one thing entirely to live your principles and be in service to those in need but another thing entirely to convert people or to tie aid/assistance to church attendance etc.
Please think about the ethics involved here. These are people who don't have many options. By all means, donate your time but skip the preaching please, unless of course they already share your faith.
My husband and I definitely have thought about the ethics involved...we know there have been terrible missionaries that have done a lot of damage in Jesus' name. But I also truly believe that Jesus is real and His commission to tell others about him is real. So I do believe that it is possible to be an ethical missionary. Which I know is not a given to many people! And I can definitely understand that if one has abundant experience in Africa, that might certainly give one a different perspective on the potential harm missionaries can do.
If you go through a missions organization (SBC International Mission Board, etc), then you will probably have fundraising as part of your preparation to go. You'll also probably need to feel a much stronger call than you currently feel. There is a lot of pressure on your family and marriage and personal faith when you've been sent on mission somewhere. As such, you need to have a strong conviction that this is the purpose your family has been called to.
What might suit your situation better is to go work part time abroad in an unreached area and then start a home church. Your financial position would make it so you wouldn't be boxed in on employment options and could also spend plenty of time doing humanitarian service or volunteering and caring for the poor/homeless. Then you could start a Bible study/home church as you build relationship and friendships and share the gospel that way.
What's appealing to me about going to an unreached area is that these are not people who have heard about Christianity and said no. These are people who've never even had the opportunity to hear and make a decision.
My recommendation is to focus less on the organizations right now and focus more on really seeking out whether this is your calling as a family. I'd start with reading all David Platt's books.
Good luck!
Just looked up David Platt and realized that my husband read all of his books last year. I've now ordered two from our library. We are aware of the idea of just setting up camp somewhere without anybody's mandate/an organization. The missionary we provide the most support for went this route. It has not been easy for her! We check in with her via Skype a few times/month. After four years in the country she was called to, she is still pretty lonely, even though by now her language skills are very good.
It's a thought. I might be wrong, but this route seems like the most difficult of all possibilities. It might depend on where one went.
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What's appealing to me about going to an unreached area is that these are not people who have heard about Christianity and said no. These are people who've never even had the opportunity to hear and make a decision.
That is the least ethical suggestion yet, equivalent to saying "go find some culture that hasn't been contaminated yet, and contaminate it."
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What's appealing to me about going to an unreached area is that these are not people who have heard about Christianity and said no. These are people who've never even had the opportunity to hear and make a decision.
That is the least ethical suggestion yet, equivalent to saying "go find some culture that hasn't been contaminated yet, and contaminate it."
If you'll let me expand a bit on this thought... I don't think anyone here is advocating blindly stomping over someone's culture or standing on street corners condemning people or offering help to people but only if they come to church or produce some fake confession. I'm saying you can go somewhere, build relationships and friendships where you are genuinely caring for people and their needs. Then in that friendship you can share your beliefs and share how your life has been changed through your faith. There is no qualifier that what you share must be accepted or else.
If you believe that Christianity is wrong or harmful, then you would see this as negative no matter what. I'm not going to try and convince you away from that. But if you believe that it's true, then not telling someone about that truth is really cruel. I believe that going and telling people about your faith who haven't ever had an opportunity to accept or reject it (and letting them accept or reject it with no bearing on your humanitarian efforts) is better than going to a place where Christianity is accessible in the community and trying to convert people who have already rejected it.
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If you'll let me expand a bit on this thought... I don't think anyone here is advocating blindly stomping over someone's culture or standing on street corners condemning people or offering help to people but only if they come to church or produce some fake confession. I'm saying you can go somewhere, build relationships and friendships where you are genuinely caring for people and their needs. Then in that friendship you can share your beliefs and share how your life has been changed through your faith. There is no qualifier that what you share must be accepted or else.
You'd still be going there with an ulterior motive.
The purpose of the trip is to proselytize. You can tell because, if it weren't, this thread would be asking about secular volunteering instead. Therefore, the choice is between proselytizing honestly and openly, or trying to be sneaky about it and lying to your "friends" about your intentions. I know which choice I think is more ethical...
But if you believe that it's true, then not telling someone about that truth is really cruel.
First of all, I have a substantial problem with the notion that simply remaining silent is cruel. Math is "true," but I do not consider myself "cruel" for failing to drop everything to go to some impoverished country and teach arithmetic!
Second, damaging people's ability to reason by confusing them into conflating faith and truth is itself one of the more cruel things I can think of.
Incidentally, over in the "what would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/what-would-it-take-to-restore-the-arts-to-being-profitable-careers/msg1235838/#msg1235838)" thread, we've got people arguing that "closed cultures" are so precious and fragile that we should have draconian copyright laws just to stop people from copying their artifacts (using as examples things like Navajo motifs and Australian aboriginal art). And yet over here in this thread y'all are talking about intentionally intervening to change them to some other culture you think is better, and that's apparently considered perfectly okay! I realize it's mostly different people participating the two threads, but still...
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It's ok, I really understand how unpopular missionary work would be, just as a topic of discussion. I'd say something like, well, we have to agree to disagree, but it's not really a matter of personal taste--it's a matter of ethical/belief systems, and that's quite complex!
I don't think I quite considered that of course there would be a substantial contingency on a secular forum who viewed the whole idea of missionary work as deeply troubling. It IS an enormously complex topic. I figured people who didn't have any interest would just not read the thread, and people who were Christian MMMers (there is a huge overlap in the Mustachian thing and a Christian tradition of simplicity, and I think probably many Christians are attracted to this forum just as I am) would have some good ideas to offer.
But I think I created a bit of a flame war magnet.
Is it possible for me to say...I have a pretty comprehensive secular education and came from an atheist upbringing (did not convert to Christianity until my late twenties), so I'm quite familiar with all the arguments against missionary work? I do believe it is possible to share Jesus responsibly, and understand that there are those who would disagree.
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It's ok, I really understand how unpopular missionary work would be, just as a topic of discussion. I'd say something like, well, we have to agree to disagree, but it's not really a matter of personal taste--it's a matter of ethical/belief systems, and that's quite complex!
I don't understand how the idea is reconciled even entirely within a Christian belief system (Golden Rule and all that -- would you want, say, satanists going on a "mission" to proselytize to you?) But unless people want to hear more about that and all the other great arguments I thought up on my bike ride home this evening, I'll butt out now. (I didn't want to touch this thread with a ten-foot pole participate anyway, but that post advocating violating the Prime Directive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive) was too much to resist.)
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Q - "If you have never heard of Jesus, do you still go to hell?"
Christian A - "No. God judges you based on your understanding."
Q - "Then aren't missionaries, in essence, sending people to hell, rather than saving them?"
Seriously, though - I have a lot of trouble with people in this day and age, with the amount of information they have available to them, still believing in make believe stories that people wrote 2000 years ago. When I hear you describing how you want to "spread the gospel", I imagine what people would think of me if I stated that I wanted to spread the truth about the faeries that live in the forest and we must stop destroying their home, or they'll go back to the land of Faerie and return with an army of Fae to wipe us off the face of the earth. I fail to see any difference in logic.
We've collectively discarded the thousands of religions that have existed since the beginning of human history, yet people still cling to one - which is demonstrably misguided, if not downright evil. Much of the hate I see in the world stems from these (or very similar) superstitious beliefs. And even if, in the absence of any verifiable evidence, or basic logical examination, God does exist, then from what I've read in the bible, he's a dick and doesn't at all deserve to be worshipped.
One example of the many, many (many) logical contradictions - the first lines in the bible states: "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good..."
So, this supposedly omniscient God fellow really had no idea what the hell he was doing - because he had no idea that light would be good. I guess he was just fucking around one day.
Anyways, I really wish the world would move on from these bizarre, outdated ideas that ultimately serve to make people hate each other, disregard basic science, suppress women and minorities, treat the earth as a disposable tool, value weird commandments over caring for each other, etc...
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MOD NOTE: ENOUGH. You might not agree with what the OP believes, but they have the right to believe it. They also have may have different goals in FI/RE than you do. Again, they have that right.
This is not the thread for railing against a person's beliefs (no matter how illogical to you) If you don't have something constructive and ON TOPIC to add to the conversation, and you insist on breaking the forum rules, do you remember them?
Hint: rule #1 is "Don't be a jerk" http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/)
You'll be given a temporary ban. If you don't like it you are free to leave.
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EnglishTeacherAlex, could you maybe do short term mission trips with some of these missionary organizations that have been mentioned in order to feel out different models/types of work/ locations? If you do that, you would be sort of sampling the menu, and who knows where you would go from there? I think if you put yourself out there (with God's leading), He will show you the path from there.
As a side note, I was reading Romans 9 & 10 this morning, and the verse pops to mind, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace." May God bless you.
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EnglishTeacherAlex, could you maybe do short term mission trips with some of these missionary organizations that have been mentioned in order to feel out different models/types of work/ locations? If you do that, you would be sort of sampling the menu, and who knows where you would go from there? I think if you put yourself out there (with God's leading), He will show you the path from there.
As a side note, I was reading Romans 9 & 10 this morning, and the verse pops to mind, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace." May God bless you.
I love that verse. Short term missions...very good idea. Since I'm a teacher, a summer mission with our family would probably be super. I always felt discouraged from short term missions, but I think it's time to take the plunge. Thanks for the encouragement!
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This summer I met a retired professor at a conference in the UK whose daughter founded this orphanage in Uganda, with a Christian focus and serving kids with special needs: http://www.ekisa.org/about-us/.
Perhaps of interest?
Best of luck to your family as you reflect on how to pursue your aims!
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Catholic nuns run a number of missions in East Timor and Papua New Guinea... may not be your denomination but there could be similar missions in place for your brand of faith.
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He pretty much admitted to wanting to convert by stating he couldn't work in a monastery with his agenda . .
I see I got modded down so I guess it isn't polite to be trying to convince others to stay away from foreign countries with "help" in one hand and "oh look what's this a gospel!" in another. Have at it folks!
Lol, commentator says it would be wrong to go somewhere with an agenda that may be unwelcome, by going to a thread with an agenda that would be unwelcome.
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two things;
1. I too believe there are lots of overlaping ideas between MMM and christian ideals and am surprised it is not brought up more often. I read religious blogs and it helps to inspire me to the next level. Occasionally Ill email a blogger or post a comment to the effect "There is a way you can take debt free, simple living to the next level..." Charitable work, not just giving, is a big reason I want to FIRE.
2. OP, I think you really need to pray and think about what exactly is your calling. You know your degrees, skillset, and that you want to evangelize, but in what way can you bring all this to the table?
Going to a small 'untouched' village to learn the language, write an alphabet and translate the bible sounds romantic but with two small kids that would be beyond difficult. Im sure you and anyone on this site would be overwhelmed taking small children into that situation. they could get sick and die, there are no medicines other than what you bring in and no emergency rooms.
Why exactly do you want to go to another country? For the experience? Your childrens' experience? A lot of countries already have significant populations of christians, and there are reasons they are not growing. The ones that have large populations of Christians are often not, as a whole, very religious; same as here in the states. I think China has more absolute number of christians than the USA. As others have said there is a lot of work you could do here. As you can see, just from this thread, there a lot of people who are jaded about religion or just think it is made up stories. Solve that riddle and you can revangelize the western world. If you just want to get away from the jaded non religious; I can understand that, I think about it myself sometimes.
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I assume you go to church, does your denomination have any missionary efforts you can be involved in? If not, I agree doing some short term trips is really the best way to see where the needs are and where you feel God is leading you. Having young kids adds a whole different dimension to the process as you have to balance their needs along with yours and the people you are going to serve. We have some friends currently raising support to go to Romania, with 3 kids ages 3, 6, and 8. The younger ones seem to be taking it all in stride, but they said the oldest is really struggling with leaving friends and all the changes,
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MOD NOTE: ENOUGH. You might not agree with what the OP believes, but they have the right to believe it. They also have may have different goals in FI/RE than you do. Again, they have that right.
This is not the thread for railing against a person's beliefs (no matter how illogical to you) If you don't have something constructive and ON TOPIC to add to the conversation, and you insist on breaking the forum rules, do you remember them?
Hint: rule #1 is "Don't be a jerk" http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/)
You'll be given a temporary ban. If you don't like it you are free to leave.
Thanks
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He pretty much admitted to wanting to convert by stating he couldn't work in a monastery with his agenda . .
I see I got modded down so I guess it isn't polite to be trying to convince others to stay away from foreign countries with "help" in one hand and "oh look what's this a gospel!" in another. Have at it folks!
Lol, commentator says it would be wrong to go somewhere with an agenda that may be unwelcome, by going to a thread with an agenda that would be unwelcome.
Not sure why you would say that when the OP asked for comments, hence I was invited. I doubt the people from where the OP will be travelling to are flooding her with invites to come convert them.
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He pretty much admitted to wanting to convert by stating he couldn't work in a monastery with his agenda . .
I see I got modded down so I guess it isn't polite to be trying to convince others to stay away from foreign countries with "help" in one hand and "oh look what's this a gospel!" in another. Have at it folks!
Lol, commentator says it would be wrong to go somewhere with an agenda that may be unwelcome, by going to a thread with an agenda that would be unwelcome.
Not sure why you would say that when the OP asked for comments, hence I was invited. I doubt the people from where the OP will be travelling to are flooding her with invites to come convert them.
You re absolutely correct, the OP asked for comment. However, the OP asked for a specific kind of comment - information on what missionary opportunities and groups they might be able to participate in, within the OP's particular religion. Your comments were somewhat off topic, as they were not about different organisations, but about whether this was an ethical activity. You're welcome to create a new thread and discuss the ethics of missionary work in modern times, it would be very interesting!
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People keep quoting me and addressing my comments so I'll keep pointing out their errors. Let's see what the OP said, quoting part of their post here and underlined key points:
The question is...where would we go? What would we do? We don't have a clear vision or calling for this. Considering our ability to live extremely simply, financial independence should be ours in as little as 5 years (but maybe more like 10).
I have been a secondary ed English teacher for my entire professional life, and love teaching very, very much. As a clinical social worker, my husband has a lot of flexibility and versatility in the jobs he is qualified for, as well (he's actually done several things over the years, all of which seem like they could easily translate to missionary work. Right now he works with homeless vets to get them housing and services.)
One option we consider is that maybe our home is our mission--our lack of vision for missionary work when we pray about this sometimes seems to indicate that our strength is in giving and in our professional vocations, and that we should earn as much as we can and over time give more and more to missionaries who are serving abroad. We already support a few, but it would be a neat goal to perhaps fully support a family at some point.
The thought of living, serving, and sharing the Gospel abroad has filled me with joy for many years, however. My husband feels convicted about it as well.
Thoughts?
Gave my thoughts that they stay at home or try to learn more about another faith abroad and still help without spreading the gospel. I've said this three times now, not sure how it can be misinterpreted. If you mean my comments about help in one hand and the gospel in the other, well that's just fact not a discussion of ethics.
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human, I understand the root of your frustration. Like you, I find the idea of one group traveling to other nations, insisting they've found the One True Path, pretty upsetting. So, I appreciate your viewpoint, but I wonder what your goal is by continuing to post? There's no chance your going to convince the larger majority in this thread that missions are bad. You just aren't. You could could derail the thread into another slog through the ethics of religion, but would that really make you feel better?
You laid out your theory. It might just be time to walk away.
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human, I understand the root of your frustration. Like you, I find the idea of one group traveling to other nations, insisting they've found the One True Path, pretty upsetting. So, I appreciate your viewpoint, but I wonder what your goal is by continuing to post? There's no chance your going to convince the larger majority in this thread that missions are bad. You just aren't. You could could derail the thread into another slog through the ethics of religion, but would that really make you feel better?
You laid out your theory. It might just be time to walk away.
I did walk away and they kept addressing my comments. If you are in a group and are told to leave and you do, then they approach you and begin talking to you again is responding wrong?
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My faith story: I was raised in an atheist family in New York. My family was and continues to be very scornful of religion in general, and Christianity in particular. Personally, I always had a more tolerant understanding of religion than the rest of my family, but was still fairly dismissive of anyone who took faith in God seriously.
In my mid twenties, while living in Hawaii (a place with an enormous Buddhist tradition, but also a lot of historical Christian missionary influence, some of a dubious nature) I became more and more interested in religion, and undertook to study it carefully and extensively. I read quite a bit about Judaism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity. I actually audited an Eastern Philosophy class at the local university here, and went to Buddhist temples in my area (as well as churches and a synagogue). At the end it was clear to me that the Bible, hands down, was Truth. After a secular upbringing, a post-graduate degree at a secular institution, and a lifetime of secular humanist indoctrination, this came as a bit of a shock, to say the least.
My family was and continues to be scandalized by my conversion. They are definitely in the camp of God/Jesus is a fairy tale, no thinking person would believe such nonsense, it's caused the world terrible problems, missionaries are evil people who have ruined countless cultures over the centuries. My mom wouldn't speak to me for two years after I told her I had been baptized. It's ok--there really is quite a lot of awful stuff that has happened in the name of Jesus, and I can understand that if a person has never had any other perspective than that, it would be a devastating thing for one's daughter to join in with such an ideology.
All that to say...I understand where people are coming from who think it's kind of a BS thing to be a missionary.
Obviously I don't agree. I do believe that Jesus was the son of God and that He was murdered and resurrected, and that He really said the things in the New Testament. And one of the things He said was to go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
This is a very compelling thing to me. I've also done a lot of research into missionary work, mistakes that have been made over the years, and how it can be done ethically. I realize there are some who would say that it cannot be done ethically. I respectfully disagree.
How my husband and I can go about obeying Jesus' Great Commission is a matter of prayer and reflection. I appreciate those who have offered some counsel/ideas. We do have two very small children to think about, but those children won't be tiny forever. We will continue to seek God's will in our lives. One thing that seems clear from the many thoughtful responses offered here is that there are many ways to skin a cat for this sort of thing, and I appreciate the encouragement to "think outside the box" and also not jump into a radically different lifestyle half cocked.
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Human, perhaps Some of you are not aware what a missionary does or have been misinformed/ misunderstand it. in general it varies widely but from what the op wrote I believe it is safeto assume the they plan to go overseas to an under served area( by their particular skills) gain some type of employment or house and board( probably substandard by westerners). They will make friends with many of those they interact with and as time passes they will share their ideas and interest someof which will be religious. They don't simply plan to havea fun trip and new adventures; spreading the gospel Is their religion.
(assuming you are American ) and you have a similar experience with some as I described above except they too are American You would probably, as most others, shut them down very quickly. If you heardthis from someone from another culture you may be more open; hence miasionaries. You have probably had similar experiences before in college, HS, and MS. Most of us are not en to discussing religion with one another.
Honestly, from the negativity in the above posts is why I will not discuss religious matters on this site. Pretty sure there are a lot of others. Think about that, this space( the forum) has less expression and discussion of ideas and knowledge because Of similar disdainful comments.
Edit:no longer addressing individuals
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The thing that troubles me is the zero-sum game that's implicit in theory of missionary* work. The true end goal is to stamp out all other religions, which smacks of arrogance, and leaves me cold.
Can you describe how missionary work could be done ethically? To me the only way to 'be ethical' would be to volunteer in stricken area, but not witness unless someone specifically wanted to discuss theology with you. I feel the same way about the MMM dogma, and the threads about converting SO's makes me cringe. But I admit I'm just one person, and I can't see all perspectives. I'd be interested in hearing your thought process. We probably won't come to an agreement, but that doesn't mean we can't have a discussion.
* I initially typed mercenary. Freudian slip, anyone? ;)
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The thing that troubles me is the zero-sum game that's implicit in theory of missionary* work. The true end goal is to stamp out all other religions, which smacks of arrogance, and leaves me cold.
Have you seen this? I am just curious. This is not my experience with missionaries at all. Many go and do good work. It may or may not involve anything more about religion at all. ie help in Haiti, medical care in various place, etc.
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The thing that troubles me is the zero-sum game that's implicit in theory of missionary* work. The true end goal is to stamp out all other religions, which smacks of arrogance, and leaves me cold.
Have you seen this? I am just curious. This is not my experience with missionaries at all. Many go and do good work. It may or may not involve anything more about religion at all. ie help in Haiti, medical care in various place, etc.
No, I'm thinking strictly on the theoretical level. Alex said one of her believes is in the concept that Christians are called to "...go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." If you carry that to the extreme logical end, then everyone would be Christian, and many traditions would have been lost. That part troubles me.
I don't actually think that will happen. I think most missionaries are motivated by a sincere desire to do good throughout the world. But, a thread of troubling superiority and colonialism seems to be implicit in the form of missionary work Alex describes. I'm interested in talking about that, and how that specific sort of missionistic theory can ethically be undertaken. I don't know much about it, and it's entirely possible she's got a whole working theory I never would have discovered on my own.
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I truly believe that missionary work, like preaching, is a calling. You are doing the right thing by praying and waiting and preparing. When God is ready to use you, you will know. And like you said, maybe you are supposed to only contribute financially toward the mission work of others. That is still important work. God bless you.
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These are pretty big questions, and some of the answers that Jesus Himself said aren't terribly popular.
Yes, I think Jesus is Truth, and I think all other religions may have aspects of Truth, but are not The Truth. I do not have a relativist understanding of the situation when it goes down to brass tacks. So that's always going to be a huge sticking point, and it's always going to seem arrogant. A lot of people can't get beyond that.
I also believe that humans were given free will to make their own choice of what to believe in. And I don't believe in forcing anyone to believe...indeed, I don't think it's really possible. I certainly wasn't forced, and I appreciate that a lot.
Ethical missionary work involves a mindset that stresses serving others in a way that consistently places the missionary beneath those they are serving, not as people who are poorer or lesser or in some way beneath the missionary. This means learning the culture of the people group being served, respecting it, understanding one's outsider status and not seeking to change that inappropriately, and truly seeking to know and love the people group while communicating the love that God has expressed for all people through Jesus Christ. There is an emphasis on building relationships over time in a non-confrontational, non-judgmental way.
This is largely how my husband and I interact with the world, including my own family, who vehemently disagrees with my beliefs. They are aware of my faith, but most of the time when I talk to them I inquire about their well-being and seek to serve them, rather than convert them (which isn't going to happen, anyway!).
I can't say that I agree with the approach of JUST serving others while never also explaining my own beliefs. That would be much easier and a lot more popular, but my original premise is that I DO believe that Jesus is The Truth, and that other religions are false. I don't see religion as a cell-phone plan sort of thing, where you pick the one that works best for you. I actually think it is a matter of truth. So I can't really get away with not explaining that. But there are ways of communicating truth that are not coercive.
Anyway, I've been given a lot to think about as far as this goes, and also had to ask myself some hard questions about why I really find the idea of long term missionary work abroad so appealing (it's a very romantic notion, and like all romantic notions should be subject to intense scrutiny!). I've made a few phone calls to real people over the last few days!
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Anyway, I've been given a lot to think about as far as this goes
MOD NOTE: Given that I think the OP's questions have been answered, I'm locking this thread.
Please don't take this as an attempt to stifle the discussion around Missionary work--I'd welcome someone starting a new Off Topic thread about it (and please link to this thread in the opening post of that one, if you do, and I'll come back and edit this post to include a link to that followup thread).
I just don't think it's fair to have told people they can't participate in this thread discussing Missionary work in general, as it's off topic for what the OP was asking, then have others continue to discuss it anyways.
Rather than issuing a bunch of bans to people who clearly want to talk about it, which would be silly, it seems that--given that the OP has their original questions answered--locking this thread, and allowing a new one about that topic, where everyone can participate, seems like the best solution to me.
Of course, in any new thread, keep in mind our forum rules and be respectful of each other.
If you have any concerns about this, please PM me, or another mod.
Cheers!