Author Topic: Living in a racist police state  (Read 42612 times)

sheepstache

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #150 on: August 20, 2014, 08:24:31 PM »
Not in Ferguson, but Dallas, where people also have a beef with police shootings.  They had an open carry demonstration.
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/26328877/gun-club-patrols-south-dallas-streets
Feel like that will make some people even more happy and others even more mad.

Really? If the first shot was the fatal shot, how did the other 4-5 shots hit the front of his arm?

There's a ton of misconceptions about firearms and bullets out there...

Bullet wounds are not instant killers.  A central nervous system hit can take someone down in a second or 2, but normally you're looking at tens of seconds to stop someone.  The one that kills you ultimately is not the last one to go through your body before you stopped fighting.

Interesting information, thanks.

Gin1984

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2014, 06:24:56 AM »
Not in Ferguson, but Dallas, where people also have a beef with police shootings.  They had an open carry demonstration.
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/26328877/gun-club-patrols-south-dallas-streets
Feel like that will make some people even more happy and others even more mad.

Really? If the first shot was the fatal shot, how did the other 4-5 shots hit the front of his arm?

There's a ton of misconceptions about firearms and bullets out there...

Bullet wounds are not instant killers.  A central nervous system hit can take someone down in a second or 2, but normally you're looking at tens of seconds to stop someone.  The one that kills you ultimately is not the last one to go through your body before you stopped fighting.

Interesting information, thanks.
Given the over reaction in Ferguston (attacking reporters, illegal curfew etc) with no weapons with the protesters, I do wonder how to cops would react if this was done there, instead of Dallas.

ingrownstudentloans

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #152 on: August 21, 2014, 08:12:38 AM »
A major new source is now reporting that the police officer was treated for a broken eye socket and massive swelling of the face due to the beating that MB inflicted on him prior to the shooting.  Of course the source is "someone close to the investigation"...thoughts on how, if true, this will affect the rioting?  (please don't read anything into my position on the matter based on this question, just consider the latest reporting from the incident)

The thing is that black people in this country have really good reasons not to trust the police (and the establishment in general). They are arrested and incarcerated at astonishingly high rates for really minor crimes (eg possession of drugs). Their homes are raided by SWAT teams searching for drugs and they get shot by police for doing things like taking out their wallets. They are stopped and illegally searched just for walking around in cities. Black poverty is so rampant now because black people were actively prevented from building wealth during the time that whites in this country were doing so.

I think what we are seeing here is all of these things reaching a boiling point. Regardless of whatever Brown did or didn't do, one undisputable fact is that he was unarmed. That is why this case is fueling people's rage. He may have been acting like an idiot, we may never know. But he's another unarmed casualty of a majority that has been brutalizing this community for hundreds of years. That's why this is happening.

I hear your points.  Amadou Diallo was killed, a mixed-race jury decided, based on the police officer's reasonable belief that he had a gun.  What really transpired there, like what really transpired here, we may never know. 

Query, does the fact that Mike Brown was physically a very large young man change the fact that he was unarmed?  To put the question another way, if he did actually punch the police officer, breaking his eye socket, and then charge the police officer, make him any more or less dangerous than had he been in possession of a baseball bat, knife, or gun?  I would argue it does.


Acknowledgment of the establishment bias does not remove that bias from a situation in the same way that it will not stop a bullet fired by a police based on a mistaken but otherwise reasonable belief.  Trust in the police/establishment or not, I would rather be "judged by the 12 than carried by the 6." 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 09:48:39 AM by ingrownstudentloans »

Jack

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #153 on: August 21, 2014, 08:24:50 AM »
Not in Ferguson, but Dallas, where people also have a beef with police shootings.  They had an open carry demonstration.
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/26328877/gun-club-patrols-south-dallas-streets
Feel like that will make some people even more happy and others even more mad.

Yep, that's exactly the kind of thing that should be happening all over the country right about now.

The article didn't say how the police reacted to it, but given that we're not talking about some kind of massacre I can only assume they reacted more appropriately than the ones in Missouri did.

Gin1984

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #154 on: August 21, 2014, 09:04:02 AM »
Not in Ferguson, but Dallas, where people also have a beef with police shootings.  They had an open carry demonstration.
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/26328877/gun-club-patrols-south-dallas-streets
Feel like that will make some people even more happy and others even more mad.

Yep, that's exactly the kind of thing that should be happening all over the country right about now.

The article didn't say how the police reacted to it, but given that we're not talking about some kind of massacre I can only assume they reacted more appropriately than the ones in Missouri did.
The article kind of did. "People watched as the marchers worked their way along Malcolm X Boulevard, and Dallas police in a black SUV provided unsolicited security for the demonstrators. "  Basically the police watched and made sure nothing illegal happen.  A good response in my mind.

GuitarStv

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #155 on: August 21, 2014, 09:46:29 AM »
Query, does the fact that Mike Brown was physically a very large young man change the fact that he was unarmed?  To put the question another way, if he did actually punch the police officer, breaking his eye socket, and then charge the police officer, make him any more or less dangerous than had he been in possession of a baseball bat, knife, or gun?  I would argue it does not. 

Size does matter.  A 90lb unarmed woman who's punching away at someone is significantly easier to restrain than a 300 lb man in the same situation.  It's more difficult to control a larger, stronger person.  I've spent many years boxing and grappling.  Bigger guys just hit harder, and are more difficult to get off of you on the ground.  Controlling the situation may call for different tactics.

I'd expect an officer to use the minimal reasonable force possible to control a situation.  If an officer is alone and without a taser I'd expect the officer to draw his firearm more quickly in a scenario involving a larger aggressor than a small one because of the greater potential for things to go wrong.

If the bigger guy has already broken the officer's eye socket, then it's clear that (weapon or no) the officer is being overpowered by his assailant and in very real risk of harm.  It seems like a pretty reasonable course of action at that point for the officer to draw his firearm and (if the aggression continues) shoot.

ingrownstudentloans

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #156 on: August 21, 2014, 09:50:41 AM »

Size does matter.  A 90lb unarmed woman who's punching away at someone is significantly easier to restrain than a 300 lb man in the same situation.  It's more difficult to control a larger, stronger person.  I've spent many years boxing and grappling.  Bigger guys just hit harder, and are more difficult to get off of you on the ground.  Controlling the situation may call for different tactics.


Guitar - Very well stated.  I agree with you 100%.  (edited my original posting to reflect this.  I had changed the intro sentence to the second paragraph but forgot to change the last sentence...)

Gin1984

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #157 on: August 21, 2014, 09:57:46 AM »
A major new source is now reporting that the police officer was treated for a broken eye socket and massive swelling of the face due to the beating that MB inflicted on him prior to the shooting.  Of course the source is "someone close to the investigation"...thoughts on how, if true, this will affect the rioting?  (please don't read anything into my position on the matter based on this question, just consider the latest reporting from the incident)

The thing is that black people in this country have really good reasons not to trust the police (and the establishment in general). They are arrested and incarcerated at astonishingly high rates for really minor crimes (eg possession of drugs). Their homes are raided by SWAT teams searching for drugs and they get shot by police for doing things like taking out their wallets. They are stopped and illegally searched just for walking around in cities. Black poverty is so rampant now because black people were actively prevented from building wealth during the time that whites in this country were doing so.

I think what we are seeing here is all of these things reaching a boiling point. Regardless of whatever Brown did or didn't do, one undisputable fact is that he was unarmed. That is why this case is fueling people's rage. He may have been acting like an idiot, we may never know. But he's another unarmed casualty of a majority that has been brutalizing this community for hundreds of years. That's why this is happening.

I hear your points.  Amadou Diallo was killed, a mixed-race jury decided, based on the police officer's reasonable belief that he had a gun.  What really transpired there, like what really transpired here, we may never know. 

Query, does the fact that Mike Brown was physically a very large young man change the fact that he was unarmed?  To put the question another way, if he did actually punch the police officer, breaking his eye socket, and then charge the police officer, make him any more or less dangerous than had he been in possession of a baseball bat, knife, or gun?  I would argue it does.


Acknowledgment of the establishment bias does not remove that bias from a situation in the same way that it will not stop a bullet fired by a police based on a mistaken but otherwise reasonable belief.  Trust in the police/establishment or not, I would rather be "judged by the 12 than carried by the 6."
If Mike Brown had punching the officer, breaking his eye socket, and then charge the police officer etc, my first question would be why was he?  But assuming the officer did not cause the attack, I would understand the shooting (even if the officer had a tazer).  However, for me, that information has to come from someone other than the officer (or frankly his brother officers) because based on the provable actions of the overall police department and this particular officer, they can't be trusted.

Bob W

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #158 on: August 21, 2014, 10:08:59 AM »
The news out of Ferguson is unbelievable to me.

How can we stop these senseless, racist, testosterone-fueled killings of young black people?

How can we hold our police forces accountable for the fucked-up things they do?

Haven't really kept up with this much, due to my low information diet.   So I Googled a couple of articles.

Apparently the police officer, Darren Wilson, suffered a facial fracture in an apparent racial attack on the officer by a black, testosterone fueled teen.   As corroborated by 12 witnesses, the teen in question attempted to take the officers weapon. 

My guess is that since the teen had just strong arm robbed a store and assaulted the employee, that he feared arrest for that and that his adrenaline and testosterone were running rather high. 

The easiest way to stop this sort of thing would be for young, testosterone fueled, racist black men to refrain from attacking police officers and other people.

The truth is that the number of "unprovoked" killings of black youth by white police officers is as near to zero in a country of 335 million as is realistic.  While the number of black on black murders is well over 15 each and everyday in this country. (Google fact check this if you like)

Here is a quote from and interesting article.  (you can google quote to goto source) --- Jeremy Henwood, a white police officer in San Diego, California was murdered in an unprovoked attack by a black thug. The thug, Dejon White, is suspected of critically wounding another white police officer one day earlier. The only motivation appears to be racial hatred of white people.

This whole thing is so reminiscent of the Trayvon Martin attempted murder of Hispanic community volunteer George Zimmerman.  In that case the much tattooed Martin bashed Mr. Zimmerman's head against a concrete curb while shouting he was going to kill him.   

The media portrayed that episode as if Zimmerman was guilty, when in fact it was just the opposite.

My guess is that when all is said and done that the police officer in Ferguson will be exonerated as was Zimmerman. 

Furthermore, I guess the national media will fail to report the over 100 homicides committed by black people that will occur in my home state of Missouri this year.

And thus,  I am going to continue my low information (or at least no national fake media) diet.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #159 on: August 21, 2014, 10:32:51 AM »
Shhh, Bob, don't try to interject facts into this thread.   Facts just muddy the waters for our rant on racist police states.

madame librarian

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #160 on: August 21, 2014, 10:48:02 AM »
I hear your points.  Amadou Diallo was killed, a mixed-race jury decided, based on the police officer's reasonable belief that he had a gun.  What really transpired there, like what really transpired here, we may never know. 

Query, does the fact that Mike Brown was physically a very large young man change the fact that he was unarmed?  To put the question another way, if he did actually punch the police officer, breaking his eye socket, and then charge the police officer, make him any more or less dangerous than had he been in possession of a baseball bat, knife, or gun?  I would argue it does.

Full disclosure: I am one of those nuts who thinks the police shouldn't be carrying guns around for their daily activities. For one thing there is evidence that having a high police presence in an area, independent of any other factors, causes the crime rate to go up. We're not totally sure why that is, but one theory is that the constant threat of having to confront heavily-armed police officers adds stress into people's lives, and higher stress (esp subsistence-level stress, like constantly wondering "am I going to survive this day?") = higher crime. It also breeds resentment of the police and government, since police presence tends to increase in places with already higher-than-average crime, which leads to the police treating the residents more harshly than they might otherwise.

So to answer your question, although I would be scared poo-less if a 6'4 300-lb man were trying to beat me up (indeed, such a man could kill me with his fists alone), and in that I sympathize with the officer (assuming that is what happened, which I'm not sure about), I still think that pepper spray or a taser shoulda-woulda-coulda sufficed.

Quote
Acknowledgment of the establishment bias does not remove that bias from a situation in the same way that it will not stop a bullet fired by a police based on a mistaken but otherwise reasonable belief.  Trust in the police/establishment or not, I would rather be "judged by the 12 than carried by the 6."

I am not so sure. I want to survive as much as anyone, but it is a monstrous thing to take another person's life. I am human, though, and if I had a gun in my hands and [I thought] my only choices were to use it or die, I would probably shoot -- which is part of the reason I don't really want a gun -- and part of the reason I don't think people working in high-stress situations should always be carrying them either.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 10:56:24 AM by madame librarian »

fitzgeralday

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #161 on: August 21, 2014, 10:53:25 AM »
The news out of Ferguson is unbelievable to me.

How can we stop these senseless, racist, testosterone-fueled killings of young black people?

How can we hold our police forces accountable for the fucked-up things they do?

Haven't really kept up with this much, due to my low information diet.   So I Googled a couple of articles.

Apparently the police officer, Darren Wilson, suffered a facial fracture in an apparent racial attack on the officer by a black, testosterone fueled teen.   As corroborated by 12 witnesses, the teen in question attempted to take the officers weapon. 

My guess is that since the teen had just strong arm robbed a store and assaulted the employee, that he feared arrest for that and that his adrenaline and testosterone were running rather high. 

The easiest way to stop this sort of thing would be for young, testosterone fueled, racist black men to refrain from attacking police officers and other people.

The truth is that the number of "unprovoked" killings of black youth by white police officers is as near to zero in a country of 335 million as is realistic.  While the number of black on black murders is well over 15 each and everyday in this country. (Google fact check this if you like)

Here is a quote from and interesting article.  (you can google quote to goto source) --- Jeremy Henwood, a white police officer in San Diego, California was murdered in an unprovoked attack by a black thug. The thug, Dejon White, is suspected of critically wounding another white police officer one day earlier. The only motivation appears to be racial hatred of white people.

This whole thing is so reminiscent of the Trayvon Martin attempted murder of Hispanic community volunteer George Zimmerman.  In that case the much tattooed Martin bashed Mr. Zimmerman's head against a concrete curb while shouting he was going to kill him.   

The media portrayed that episode as if Zimmerman was guilty, when in fact it was just the opposite.

My guess is that when all is said and done that the police officer in Ferguson will be exonerated as was Zimmerman. 

Furthermore, I guess the national media will fail to report the over 100 homicides committed by black people that will occur in my home state of Missouri this year.

And thus,  I am going to continue my low information (or at least no national fake media) diet.

Actually, Michael Brown was not a robbery suspect at the time that he was stopped by police as previously claimed: http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/

There are also disputes about the allegations that Michael Brown attacked the officer: http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/

The quickness of the media and on the part of individuals to make assumptions supports the prevailing fear of Black males that ultimately led to this tragedy. 

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #162 on: August 21, 2014, 11:00:07 AM »

Actually, Michael Brown was not a robbery suspect at the time that he was stopped by police as previously claimed: http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/
 

Bob didn't say Brown was a robbery suspect.   Bob said Brown had just robbed a store and assaulted the employee (proven on video camera) and most likely was running on high levels of testosterone when he confronted the police officer.

But twisting of facts is running rampant in this thread so I guess we will let your mistake slide.

Gin1984

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #163 on: August 21, 2014, 11:03:14 AM »

Actually, Michael Brown was not a robbery suspect at the time that he was stopped by police as previously claimed: http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/
 

Bob didn't say Brown was a robbery suspect.   Bob said Brown had just robbed a store and assaulted the employee (proven on video camera) and most likely was running on high levels of testosterone when he confronted the police officer.

But twisting of facts is running rampant in this thread so I guess we will let your mistake slide.
Does anyone have a copy of that video?  Because the discriptions I heard was "looked like Mike Brown" and "wearing the same clothes", but not that it was him.  I'd like to see if Mike Brown's face was on there.  Also, if the police have said the friend was not involved in the robbery, how did they come together if the robbery and killing were so close?
Also "Added Crenshaw, who said she was watching the incident unfold from a nearby balcony, "The (officer) actually shot kind of carelessly. They shot my neighbor's building that was on the opposite side of the police car. They then later came and removed that bullet. ... Anybody could've been standing right there."", I had never heard this one.  I wonder if the FBI is investigating if a bullet was shot in there (collaborating the person's statement)?

lauren_knows

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Re: Living in a racist police state
« Reply #164 on: August 21, 2014, 11:05:40 AM »
This topic has been locked by moderators.

While this is the "off-topic" part of the forum, I just can't justify letting a thread like this get more out of hand.  This is a very touchy political/racial/social subject, that should not induce a fiery discussion on a forum devoted to Financial Independence.