Author Topic: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?  (Read 67463 times)

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4058
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1000 on: March 26, 2019, 08:32:29 PM »
Cathode Ray tube?

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4878
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1001 on: March 26, 2019, 11:02:15 PM »
Cathode Ray tube?

Critical Race Theory. Better watch out though! As has been pointed out 32 times already in this thread, we have a "master" among us!!

Really it's just a rehash of conservative talking points that tries to prove that they're not the racists -- it's those liberals! It's been a defense of racism for over 100 years since those damn Yankees showed up in the south and freed the black man. It's unclear whether it's to convince themselves or others.


Edit: Sorry, I wasn't clear. CRT isn't a rehash of conservative talking points. What anistropy is selling is. There are problems with CRT but it doesn't mean that racism in America doesn't exist nor does it mean that this racism doesn't affect certain ethnicities.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 11:13:19 PM by bacchi »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1002 on: March 26, 2019, 11:24:51 PM »
There is almost a formulaic path for each ethnic group to become fully integrated and overcome stigma and discrimination in the long run. Booker Washington saw it and wanted to fix it for the long haul, but no, it's much easier for militants like "Willie" (Kendi's word, not mine) Du Bois and race hustlers like Davis and Coates to call upon grievance and resentment for a quick fix in the form of EQUITY, welfare and pity.

It. Does. Not. Work.
It. Has. Never. Worked. Anywhere. In. The. World.


Blacks are equally capable like everyone else to thrive in the absence of government interventions, just look at all the recent Black immigrants (incidentally, these areas were not tainted by bs "anti-racist" policies). It is the homegrown American Blacks that are lagging in almost EVERY regard, these anti-racist (more like extremely racist) policies championed by the identitarian left dont work. the longer you do it, the worse their condition will become.

This is true and it's the first time we've really touched on the solution problem. You don't fix issues like this via hand-outs. Hand-outs can make things much much worse. You develop a culture of game playing to get your hand-out. It disincentives people.

Why do you keep repeating libs solution to everything is "handouts". First of all, (everyone should know this by now), lifetime welfare no longer exists in the US. We have: unemployment where you have to have a job history to qualify. We have social security for older folks. We have food stamps, which I think are a good thing because the majority are used by families with kids and we all want kids to have good nutrition while they are growing up. There is also disability, which again is disability-ranked. The rules for these programs are color blind. More whites use these programs than blacks do (though the proportion of blacks may be higher.)
What else are libs asking for: support public education and teachers. Make sure everyone has access to schooling. We have seen in the past states which control education do not provide equal quality of schooling to all of their citizens, or simply cut education. Unfortunately the federal government has to be there so all americans have access.
We want all school aged children to have good nutrition (backpack meals). We also don't want old people to be isolated suffer from lack of nutrition (meals on wheels). I don't see these as handouts. They are safety nets for specific vulnerable populations. Notice how none of them are listed as for "black kids" or black older folks, that is something in the minds of people like steveo and anisotropy. Unfortunately we live in a country that does not have especially strong family community strength. In other countries these things would be taken care of by family and the immediate community which is even better. In the US it is done by the government.

Second, libs do like to point out systemic problems in our society which increase lack of mobility or target particular populations. Blacks are more likely to get shot when stopped for a traffic stop. It's not just the behavior of the driver, it's the behavior of police officers. Many precints have been caught doing racial profiling, and that is against our law. The assymetric drug laws (very different sentencing for crack cocaine versus powder cocaine) and harsh sentences for "holding" also disproportinately impacts minorities.
Other areas where there are systemic problems are people in low socioeconomic areas have a more difficult time getting a mortgage to buy properties, or to insure that property. That perpetuates not being able to invest in their own neighborhood and community and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Identifying and correcting any of these problems should be applauded by people like steveo and Anisotropy, because it is again removing obstacles so to allow individuals to help themselves.

Just to be clear I am basically all for a bunch of these changes. I raised drug laws a while back. I have also mentioned education and health care. I am all for safety nets as well.

Where I am extremely nervous is the comments related to black people getting shot by police. I don't like focusing on someone's ethnic or gender background. I think that this segregates society and creates problems.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1003 on: March 26, 2019, 11:27:27 PM »
What is so amazing in the US is that today, it makes no difference what gender, race, or even country you are from.  Everyone has equal opportunity to get an education, work hard and succeed.  When I say everyone, I mean everyone. Yes people in poor communities have a harder time to succeed, but it is not because they are minorities but because of the culture in those communities.

Enjoyit, I think this is where the disconnect occurs. They are not necessarily happy with "equal opportunity", rather, they prefer "equal outcome", hence equity.

Namely, they want to give (more like enforce) everyone similar motivation and education necessary to succeed. This mentality either implies an absolute blank-slate model where everyone was born with equal talents and abilities or that people who are for whatever reason MORE motivated need to more scrutinized to the point of near-discrimination. An example would be how Asians, particularly East Asians are suing various schools that were also involved with recent scandals.

I am a believer in equality of opportunities, alas I grew up a commie and I know full well where equality of outcome leads.

Not at all.

I believe strongly in equal opportunity.

If you have a guy named Steve Smith and a guy named DeShawn Brown and they both submit exactly the same resume to the same set of companies, the white sounding guy gets 50% more call backs.  That is an example of the unequal opportunity that exists today as it relates to race that I think is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.
 https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/jalen-ross/black-name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/.

Equal outcome though?  No, not really.  Looking at outcomes statistically (along with other metrics) is one of several ways of roughly identifying if opportunity is the same, but I would never expect outcomes to be exactly equal across all the sex/race/sexual orientation metrics.  That's obviously unreasonable.  Of course there will be variation on a case by case basis.  In a properly functioning system, this variation should be linked to intelligence, quality of work, suitability for particular careers, etc.  Not based on having a white sounding name.

It isn't based on having a white sounding name at all. This is where you have to wake up and smell the roses. If all the doctors are called Chin or Chen do you change your statement to not having a Chinese sounding name.

Honestly the identity politics have to stop. Stop making all sorts of isms an issue and then maybe we can get somewhere. We aren't that far apart. You just want to re-engineer society based on a person's ethnic background which is racism. I think the rest of us want to make society better for all human beings. One philosophy is racist (it's an irrational tribal belief) and the other philosophy is humanist.

Based on this comment I can see that you didn't read the article.

To answer your question though, yes.  If people with names like Chin and Chen get 50% more callbacks when the apply to be doctors than people with names like Smith and Jones, then I'd take that as an indication of a problem that's most likely linked to racism/predjudices.

I don't want to re-engineer society based on a person's ethnic background.  That's why I didn't make that argument.  Please stop building straw men to argue against.

I don't like this either. It's good that you don't want to re-engineer society based on a person's ethnic background but I'm not sure that you really mean that. I guarantee that people with those names will get more callbacks because more people of Chinese background are becoming doctors.

I didn't read the article but I'm against all segregating policies and research. I think identity politics is racist and causes problems.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1004 on: March 26, 2019, 11:29:11 PM »
It's really important to coddle racists . . . because their feelings matter much more than the feelings of the people they're oppressing.  After all, they're white!

You called me out for stating a straw man argument but this is wrong. I am not condoning racism. I think it's racist to focus on a person's ethnicity. I am against any form of real racism. The problem is that social scientists are labelling social phenomena as racist and causing problems. It doesn't have to be this way.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 11:56:35 PM by steveo »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1005 on: March 26, 2019, 11:30:47 PM »
Me personally, I am more for pointing out similarities between people and try to bring people together as opposed to pointing out racial differences which I think propagates racial affects further.  That is why I prefer to talk in the realm of poor communities as opposed to communities with a particular race living in them.

Well said. This is I think the difference between non-racist liberals and racist liberals. The problem is when everything is couched in terms of racism or sexism you perpetuate that cycle. I'm not stating that the racist liberals are consciously racist. They are though perpetuating racism. Rather than trying to improve society they are making things worse.

I am all for helping poor and disenfranchised communities.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 11:58:39 PM by steveo »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1006 on: March 26, 2019, 11:37:11 PM »
Well, I'd argue with you that my direct observation has to count for something.  But you'll dismiss that.  And I'd also use studies to show that preferential treatment to white candidates happens, even if it's at a subconscious level, but I've already seen you dismiss those types of studies.

So if you won't accept direct observation or controlled studies that this is a thing then there's really nothing I can say or do to convince you, is there?

My opinion is that you've filled your head with nonsense. You go and look for these problems whereas I don't. I view people as human beings rather than their ethnic background or gender. I believe that when you focus on differences you make things worse.

I should add that if someone is really sexist or racist that person has serious problems and society should pressure these people to change their outlook.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1007 on: March 26, 2019, 11:41:02 PM »
So I will re-state:  The problem is not black culture.  It's white culture.  Specifically the white culture that actively works to prevent black success.  If we ever want anything to change, THIS is where we must focus our efforts.

I think that this is racist. I don't believe focusing on white culture is possible because I don't believe white culture exists other than as a joke about things like "stupid stuff white people state". I believe that society is where it is today which is pretty much a non-racist or sexist society. I believe that we need to try and create a society that is really liberal. That society wouldn't focus on someone's race or sex.

This is my exact point in relation to when I stated you are filling your head with nonsense. You create this white culture. You cannot factually deny this either. It's a construct that you've made up in your head. It doesn't exist other than to give you something to fight against.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 02:22:14 AM by steveo »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1008 on: March 26, 2019, 11:46:44 PM »
Race is a construct. It is a construct that affects people's behavior and so is "real" but biologically there is more variation within a race, than across races. So steveo (fixed) is asking a rhetorical question at why do asians become doctors at a higher rate than white does that mean no black racism or anti-white racism or some variation, they are asking the wrong question. It doesn't have anything to do with the color of their skin or whiteness or nonwhiteness, OK? Other people answered the question more succiently than I can, that i.e. cultural differences.
 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/

https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-07.htm

I read the first link and skimmed the second. Here is the problem. I don't believe in your social construct. I think it's just a grab for power. I don't believe in any genetic differences between people of different ethnicity either.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1009 on: March 27, 2019, 01:29:20 AM »
Me personally, I am more for pointing out similarities between people and try to bring people together as opposed to pointing out racial differences which I think propagates racial affects further.  That is why I prefer to talk in the realm of poor communities as opposed to communities with a particular race living in them.

Well said. This is I think the difference between non-racist liberals and racist liberals. The problem is when everything is couched in terms of racism or sexism you perpetuate that cycle. I'm not stating that the racist liberals are consciously racist. They are though perpetuating racism. Rather than trying to improve society they are making things worse.

I am all for helping poor and disenfranchised communities.

As I repeatedly said, stress on sameness. when you keep bringing up the invisible hand of structural racism or how people have been victimized over and over you create the opposite effects.

If you really have to bring race into the discussion, use contemporary positive examples that the poor communities can look up to. They dont need to be celebrities like Oprah or anything, in fact that would actually be bad. Just everyday ordinary people, there are plenty of them (or should i say us) around.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:39:34 AM by anisotropy »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1010 on: March 27, 2019, 01:48:10 AM »
Me personally, I am more for pointing out similarities between people and try to bring people together as opposed to pointing out racial differences which I think propagates racial affects further.  That is why I prefer to talk in the realm of poor communities as opposed to communities with a particular race living in them.

Well said. This is I think the difference between non-racist liberals and racist liberals. The problem is when everything is couched in terms of racism or sexism you perpetuate that cycle. I'm not stating that the racist liberals are consciously racist. They are though perpetuating racism. Rather than trying to improve society they are making things worse.

I am all for helping poor and disenfranchised communities.

As I repeatedly said, stress on sameness. when you keep bringing up the invisible hand of structural racism or how people have been victimized over and over you create the opposite effects.

Exactly.

I'll add that the people that believe this stuff often live their lives as per your quote from Dostoevsky. They go looking for grievances. It doesn't have anything to do with actually helping people as well. It's not a humanist philosophy. It's a philosophy of hatred and bigotry.

I bet if the perspective changed to helping out disadvantaged people a whole bunch of them wouldn't be interested. They aren't trying to help people. They want to engage that chip on their shoulder. I find it disgusting.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1011 on: March 27, 2019, 02:56:35 AM »
Me personally, I am more for pointing out similarities between people and try to bring people together as opposed to pointing out racial differences which I think propagates racial affects further.  That is why I prefer to talk in the realm of poor communities as opposed to communities with a particular race living in them.

Well said. This is I think the difference between non-racist liberals and racist liberals. The problem is when everything is couched in terms of racism or sexism you perpetuate that cycle. I'm not stating that the racist liberals are consciously racist. They are though perpetuating racism. Rather than trying to improve society they are making things worse.

I am all for helping poor and disenfranchised communities.

As I repeatedly said, stress on sameness. when you keep bringing up the invisible hand of structural racism or how people have been victimized over and over you create the opposite effects.

Exactly.

I'll add that the people that believe this stuff often live their lives as per your quote from Dostoevsky. They go looking for grievances. It doesn't have anything to do with actually helping people as well. It's not a humanist philosophy. It's a philosophy of hatred and bigotry.

I bet if the perspective changed to helping out disadvantaged people a whole bunch of them wouldn't be interested. They aren't trying to help people. They want to engage that chip on their shoulder. I find it disgusting.

steveo,
It's really interesting you mentioned humanism. Coleman Hughes has a long talk on anti-racism (which is essentially grievances seeking) vs humanism. You might find it to be of interest. Mr Hughes is a brilliant kid, man I wish I knew half as much as he does when I was his age. Granted I went STEM and wasted half of my life as a commie but still.

bacchi,
I would like to have a discussion regarding Marva Collins sans the ideology. Rather, I want to talk about if she was indeed a fraud as you claimed, as it was a serious allegation. I dug around and most of what I found were puff pieces. Her main detractor/critic was George N. Schmidt of Substance News. Here's a brief compilation of his assessments. I was not able to find any concrete test results other than second hand testimonies

At the time (circa 70s-80s), her praises from MSM outnumbered her critics by a large margin, yet I wouldn't put too much weight on that, since we know how MSM can engage in group think and herd mentality and get things very very wrong. What I did find were individual cases and test/score/abilities improvements of her pupils, most famous of them being Kevin Ross. Collins was also awarded a metal in 2004 for her work. One would think if her work were indeed bogus, she would have been caught between 1982 (when the criticism first appeared) to 2004.

As of today, both Collins and Schmidt are no longer with us, neither can defend their views. I did however, find an professional who's had contacts with Collins before she had passed. From what she wrote, it does not appear she thinks Collins was a fraud.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16346
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1012 on: March 27, 2019, 07:05:59 AM »
It's really important to coddle racists . . . because their feelings matter much more than the feelings of the people they're oppressing.  After all, they're white!

You called me out for stating a straw man argument but this is wrong. I am not condoning racism. I think it's racist to focus on a person's ethnicity. I am against any form of real racism. The problem is that social scientists are labelling social phenomena as racist and causing problems. It doesn't have to be this way.

So you've traded a straw man for a 'no true scotsman' argument?

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1013 on: March 27, 2019, 08:16:29 AM »
Don't forget who's the CRT master here, race is indeed a construct. I can go on to problematize everything you just said and show how your assertion is thoroughly racist if you prefer.

In case you didn't know, pointing at cultural differences as the explanation to different outcomes is racist in CRT. I disagree with this, but hey, I didn't make those bs rules.

[Anistropy, my only experience with you has been that absurd Statistics thread where you misunderstood basic statistics even with a half dozen people explaining your mistake over and over again, and you were (in your own words) an "asshole", so I'm really reticent to bother engaging with you. Just being honest.]

I really don't understand your obsession with CRT. First of all, no one has brought it up in this thread except you, even though many of the people here are pretty far left. More importantly, CRT is just an academic framework for approaching an issue. It's no different than structuralism, or utilitarianism. It's a tool people apply. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes its not. Only the outermost fringes of the fringes (on both sides) treat it like an inviolable religion.

You say "pointing at cultural differences as the explanation to different outcomes is racist in CRT" as if you've scored some point, but I fail to see it. Maybe something I've said in this argument is racist, or can at least be reasonably interpreted that way. Is it such a bad thing to question ourselves?
 


Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1014 on: March 27, 2019, 08:27:43 AM »
Where I am extremely nervous is the comments related to black people getting shot by police. I don't like focusing on someone's ethnic or gender background. I think that this segregates society and creates problems.

I'm trying to understand your point here (really, I am).

I'd say if something in this scenario is segregating society and creating problems, it would be the cops shooting black men, not the person pointing out that they do.

Could you expand on your point here so I can better understand it?



Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2552
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1015 on: March 27, 2019, 08:30:11 AM »
Don't forget who's the CRT master here, race is indeed a construct. I can go on to problematize everything you just said and show how your assertion is thoroughly racist if you prefer.

In case you didn't know, pointing at cultural differences as the explanation to different outcomes is racist in CRT. I disagree with this, but hey, I didn't make those bs rules.

[Anistropy, my only experience with you has been that absurd Statistics thread where you misunderstood basic statistics even with a half dozen people explaining your mistake over and over again, and you were (in your own words) an "asshole", so I'm really reticent to bother engaging with you. Just being honest.]

I really don't understand your obsession with CRT. First of all, no one has brought it up in this thread except you, even though many of the people here are pretty far left. More importantly, CRT is just an academic framework for approaching an issue. It's no different than structuralism, or utilitarianism. It's a tool people apply. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes its not. Only the outermost fringes of the fringes (on both sides) treat it like an inviolable religion.

You say "pointing at cultural differences as the explanation to different outcomes is racist in CRT" as if you've scored some point, but I fail to see it. Maybe something I've said in this argument is racist, or can at least be reasonably interpreted that way. Is it such a bad thing to question ourselves?

Hey, this sounds familiar ;)

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1016 on: March 27, 2019, 08:49:34 AM »
I'll add that the people that believe this stuff often live their lives as per your quote from Dostoevsky. They go looking for grievances. It doesn't have anything to do with actually helping people as well. It's not a humanist philosophy. It's a philosophy of hatred and bigotry.

I bet if the perspective changed to helping out disadvantaged people a whole bunch of them wouldn't be interested. They aren't trying to help people. They want to engage that chip on their shoulder. I find it disgusting.

There are certainly people out there that go looking for grievances. My person experience has been that there is no correlation between that particular character trait and any one political position.

Almost all of the people I know are genuinely kind and want to help other people out. I think almost everyone involved in this thread also fits that description (you included, steveo). Even if the people you describe above exist, they are not the ones you are talking to right now. You're either talking past a lot of us, or you're making assumptions about our positions that aren't true.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1017 on: March 27, 2019, 09:38:04 AM »
Well, I'd argue with you that my direct observation has to count for something.  But you'll dismiss that.  And I'd also use studies to show that preferential treatment to white candidates happens, even if it's at a subconscious level, but I've already seen you dismiss those types of studies.

So if you won't accept direct observation or controlled studies that this is a thing then there's really nothing I can say or do to convince you, is there?

My opinion is that you've filled your head with nonsense. You go and look for these problems whereas I don't. I view people as human beings rather than their ethnic background or gender. I believe that when you focus on differences you make things worse.

I should add that if someone is really sexist or racist that person has serious problems and society should pressure these people to change their outlook.

Right, you're pre-existing ideas prevent you from even hearing me, let alone consider that what I'm saying might be correct.  Soooo I'm out. 

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1018 on: March 27, 2019, 10:50:05 AM »


I really don't understand your obsession with CRT. First of all, no one has brought it up in this thread except you, even though many of the people here are pretty far left. More importantly, CRT is just an academic framework for approaching an issue. It's no different than structuralism, or utilitarianism. It's a tool people apply. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes its not. Only the outermost fringes of the fringes (on both sides) treat it like an inviolable religion.


CRT is the foundation of the diversity inclusion and equity program, only it's dressed up in beautiful words, but in reality the whole concept is racist, sexist, and limiting.

No one has brought it up here because the lack of understanding of the field and the connections. Rather, most proponents of these policies just push these beautiful words which now have completely different meanings.

"Diversity" pushed by Social Justice is a justified form of naked discrimination. "Inclusion" means a demand for restricted speech. "Equity" is affirmative action that goes further and cuts down. To them, it is ALL "Justice."

Just to drive the point home with you, the notion of structural racism, systemic racism, anti-racism, etc. These are ALL spawns of CRT which we hear all the time.

It is not just an academic framework anymore, its a set of unverifiable and unfalsifiable ideas are presented as "facts" that are then used to drive diversity policies within and outside academia. Essentially saying whites bad blacks good. This was just like in the 1600-1900s, the western philosophers rationalized how blacks were inherently inferior to drive/justify their racist policies. It is a big problem. But thank you for your opinion.

Pointing out how CRT considers addressing culture as a problem to be racist is to demonstrate how incompatible it is with rational thoughts. If you want to write off CRT as some looney bs, I am all for it.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 11:03:38 AM by anisotropy »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16346
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1019 on: March 27, 2019, 11:14:11 AM »
What is 'the diversity and equity program', and who runs it?

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1020 on: March 27, 2019, 11:21:34 AM »


I really don't understand your obsession with CRT. First of all, no one has brought it up in this thread except you, even though many of the people here are pretty far left. More importantly, CRT is just an academic framework for approaching an issue. It's no different than structuralism, or utilitarianism. It's a tool people apply. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes its not. Only the outermost fringes of the fringes (on both sides) treat it like an inviolable religion.


CRT is the foundation of the diversity inclusion and equity program, only it's dressed up in beautiful words, but in reality the whole concept is racist, sexist, and limiting.

No one has brought it up here because the lack of understanding of the field and the connections. Rather, most proponents of these policies just push these beautiful words which now have completely different meanings.

"Diversity" pushed by Social Justice is a justified form of naked discrimination. "Inclusion" means a demand for restricted speech. "Equity" is affirmative action that goes further and cuts down. To them, it is ALL "Justice."

Just to drive the point home with you, the notion of structural racism, systemic racism, anti-racism, etc. These are ALL spawns of CRT which we hear all the time.

It is not just an academic framework anymore, its a set of unverifiable and unfalsifiable ideas are presented as "facts" that are then used to drive diversity policies within and outside academia. Essentially saying whites bad blacks good. This was just like in the 1600-1900s, the western philosophers rationalized how blacks were inherently inferior to drive/justify their racist policies. It is a big problem. But thank you for your opinion.

Pointing out how CRT considers addressing culture as a problem to be racist is to demonstrate how incompatible it is with rational thoughts. If you want to write off CRT as some looney bs, I am all for it.

You're arguing against a position no one in this conversation is taking. I'm not here to defend critical race theory. It hasn't particularly informed my own positions, and though I think it makes some interesting contributions to the academic discourse, it is just a critical framework and I'd caution anyone about trying to apply any of those too broadly.

If you're worried about what I mean if I say diversity, or inclusion, or equity, why don't you ask me?






partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4058
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1021 on: March 27, 2019, 11:49:13 AM »
I think I'm going to have to bow out of this thread. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding between an actual phenomena, and a theory etc to explain that phenomenon. Anisotropy feels a theory to explain racism (CRT, what have you) has actually CREATED racism. Racism was present before there were fancy, beautiful words to explain it.
In the same way when I explained mainstream science view that race is a cultural construct, not a biological one, I was told  by steveo that he "doesn't believe in "your" construct." because like a 5 year old child if something is not real to him, it is thus not real to everyone else. Maybe I should assert that Steveo is not real to me (then I can ignore him on posts). And it doesn't mean the underlying set of facts and observations and behaviors that construct was created to explain, disappears. In a good faith argument, the person would propound an alternative theory. Again, in a good faith argument.
 
Anisotropy stated that according to CRT, me saying race is a social construct that I'm "racist". I looked up a couple definitions of CRT (Brittannia, Wikipedia) and CRT refer to the "social construct of race". Um, they ALSO believe that race and racism is a social construct. Which leads me to the point you are simply trolling us and calling people racist as well as the old chestnut "f*ck you" as your response to anyone's reasoned response.   

 Unless there is mainstream legislation and people in office in power who are doing what he says CRT is doing to this country (very soon now, the segregation of whites, stripping of whites of power, a "total power grab") yes I am going to say you sound unhinged. Especially when you consider US politicians at the highest echeolon of power routinely say prejudiced and or racist things, retweet images from white supremacist sites and get the endorsement of the grand marshal of the KKK. And there are many European union politicians who are running on the same isolationist anti-immigrant platform. Race and ethnic groups sure aint blind to them.

I'm going to try to refrain on commenting further as the saying goes, never try to wrestle with a pig: you just get dirty and the pig likes it.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 08:03:13 AM by partgypsy »

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2552
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1022 on: March 27, 2019, 12:12:05 PM »
Black immigrants are doing fine, at least much better than homegrown American blacks. to me this points to culture. Not racism, not white culture, but American black culture.

Immigrants are people who took the initiative to leave their home for another country. That's generally not an easy thing to do. This suggests that as a subset, immigrants are harder working, more intelligent, and greater risk takers; all things that lead to success in life.

Have you considered that this could play a role in their relative success?

Harder working, greater risk takers......so.... culture ?

That's not culture. Culture is a collection of norms in a society. The top 10% of achievers and the bottom 10% have much of the same culture.

Quote
Also, does this mean, since I am an immigrant, I have a >50% chance to be more intelligent than say hmm you?  ;)

I think that's a pretty racist assumption, don't you?

I wouldn't put numbers on it but ya, I would say it's statistically likely based on the single variable of immigrant/non-immigrant.

And no, I don't think this is racist. I don't see how this relates to race at all. Can you elaborate?

ETA: https://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-global-african-immigrants-explainer-20180112-story.html

@anisotropy, I know this is a couple days old but I was curious if you have any further opinions on this. I feel that what I've said negates the idea that you can disprove societal racism against blacks by pointing out that black immigrants are doing fine. It's another significant confounding variable that you hadn't taken into consideration. That seems like something you would be interested in given your passion on this topic. What I'm most curious about is whether you will continue to use this argument and why? If you have a counterargument I would be interested in that as well.

I realize you've been engaging in several conversations with different posters, so I'll assume you just missed this one. On the other hand, if you don't respond I might be inclined to think you're ignoring posts that contradict your position when you can't refute them.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:26:09 PM by Dabnasty »

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1023 on: March 27, 2019, 12:19:24 PM »
I'm going to try to refrain on commenting further as the saying goes, try to wrestle with a pig you just get dirty and the pig angry.

When I was young, my grandparents were ranchers in eastern Colorado/western Kansas. I spent a month every summer at their place, learning to ride horses, bale hay, and do lots of other things my suburban, middle class, nerd lifestyle back home did not expose me to. One year at the county fair there was a pig-catching contest for the kids (well, there was probably one every year, but I participated once). They let this greased pig loose in a pen with a dozen or so small kids, and whoever to wrangle him to the ground won a prize. I don't remember what the prize was, but I remember wanting it. Or maybe I just wanted to show the local kids I could handle myself.

Most of the kids were chasing the pig around--I knew from the outset this was a losing proposition. Don't aim for where the pig was, aim for where he will be. He was fast, and the best they could do was briefly catch him around the hind legs before he squirmed out of their grasp. I positioned myself in front of where I thought he would go so he would run right into my arms and I could grab a hold. It took patience, and the whole time I was worried some other kids was going to claim the glory by grabbing him before I had even tried.

Eventually, though, my positioning paid off and he barreled right into me. I got my arms around his front legs, bear hugging him to my chest. All I had to do was bring him to the ground and I'd have won. But, just as I tried to tip my fairly insubstantial weight to the side and bring him with me, my fingers slipped and he shot out from underneath me, to freedom

Maybe my whole life I've just been re-creating that day, hoping to one day catch the pig.

;)

As an adult, looking back, I just feel sorry for the poor pig. 

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3241
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1024 on: March 27, 2019, 12:30:04 PM »
I think I'm going to have to bow out of this thread. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding between an actual phenomena, and a theory etc to explain that phenomenon. Anisotropy feels a theory to explain racism (CRT, what have you) has actually CREATED racism. Racism was present before there were fancy, beautiful words to explain it.
In the same way when I explained mainstream science view that race is a cultural construct, not a biological one, I was told  by steveo that he "doesn't believe in "your" construct." because like a 5 year old child if something is not real to him, it is thus not real to everyone else. Maybe I should assert that Steveo is not real to me (then I can ignore him on posts). And it doesn't mean the underlying set of facts and observations and behaviors that construct was created to explain, disappears. In a good faith argument, the person would propound an alternative theory. Again, in a good faith argument.
 
Anisotropy stated that according to CRT, me saying race is a social construct that I'm "racist". I looked up a couple definitions of CRT (Brittannia, Wikipedia) and CRT refer to the "social construct of race". Um, they ALSO believe that race and racism is a social construct. Which leads me to the point you are simply trolling us and calling people racist as well as the old chestnut "f*ck you" as a reasoned response to an argument.   

 Unless there is mainstream legislation and people in office in power who are doing what he says CRT is doing to this country (very soon now, the segregation of whites, stripping of whites of power, a "total power grab") yes I am going to say you sound unhinged. Especially when you consider US politicians at the highest echeolon of power routinely say prejudiced and or racist things, retweet images from white supremacist sites and get the endorsement of the grand marshal of the KKK. And there are many European union politicians who are running on the same isolationist anti-immigrant platform. Race and ethnic groups sure aint blind to them.

I'm going to try to refrain on commenting further as the saying goes, never try to wrestle with a pig: you just get dirty and the pig likes it.

As I said previously.
I don't know why any of you have engaged in this nonsense.

I've had far more satisfaction talking to my cat about the insanity in this thread. He may not be a "master" of anything other than licking himself, but...

I mean seriously, what did you expect?

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4058
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1025 on: March 27, 2019, 12:31:18 PM »
I'm going to try to refrain on commenting further as the saying goes, try to wrestle with a pig you just get dirty and the pig angry.

When I was young, my grandparents were ranchers in eastern Colorado/western Kansas. I spent a month every summer at their place, learning to ride horses, bale hay, and do lots of other things my suburban, middle class, nerd lifestyle back home did not expose me to. One year at the county fair there was a pig-catching contest for the kids (well, there was probably one every year, but I participated once). They let this greased pig loose in a pen with a dozen or so small kids, and whoever to wrangle him to the ground won a prize. I don't remember what the prize was, but I remember wanting it. Or maybe I just wanted to show the local kids I could handle myself.

Most of the kids were chasing the pig around--I knew from the outset this was a losing proposition. Don't aim for where the pig was, aim for where he will be. He was fast, and the best they could do was briefly catch him around the hind legs before he squirmed out of their grasp. I positioned myself in front of where I thought he would go so he would run right into my arms and I could grab a hold. It took patience, and the whole time I was worried some other kids was going to claim the glory by grabbing him before I had even tried.

Eventually, though, my positioning paid off and he barreled right into me. I got my arms around his front legs, bear hugging him to my chest. All I had to do was bring him to the ground and I'd have won. But, just as I tried to tip my fairly insubstantial weight to the side and bring him with me, my fingers slipped and he shot out from underneath me, to freedom

Maybe my whole life I've just been re-creating that day, hoping to one day catch the pig.

;)

As an adult, looking back, I just feel sorry for the poor pig.

lol thank you for the story

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1026 on: March 27, 2019, 03:00:13 PM »
It's really important to coddle racists . . . because their feelings matter much more than the feelings of the people they're oppressing.  After all, they're white!

You called me out for stating a straw man argument but this is wrong. I am not condoning racism. I think it's racist to focus on a person's ethnicity. I am against any form of real racism. The problem is that social scientists are labelling social phenomena as racist and causing problems. It doesn't have to be this way.

So you've traded a straw man for a 'no true scotsman' argument?

Come on man. There have been some people arguing with a lack of emotional maturity and some people not arguing in good faith. That hasn't been me.

Your point is correct though. You aren't defining racism as per the meaning of racism. You are defining racism as a certain outcome. That is the problem in relation to where you are coming from. You have built your whole point on an incorrect premise.

Racism isn't a certain outcome. Racism is viewing someone as lesser based on their outward physical appearance. I believe that a bunch of you are technically racist because you are judging people on their outward appearance.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 03:35:38 PM by steveo »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1027 on: March 27, 2019, 03:10:46 PM »
Where I am extremely nervous is the comments related to black people getting shot by police. I don't like focusing on someone's ethnic or gender background. I think that this segregates society and creates problems.

I'm trying to understand your point here (really, I am).

I'd say if something in this scenario is segregating society and creating problems, it would be the cops shooting black men, not the person pointing out that they do.

Could you expand on your point here so I can better understand it?

Firstly - are you really trying. My impression is that these questions are really one sided. A bunch of you are either suffering from low intelligence (or emotional intelligence) or you aren't discussing the topic in good faith.

When I raise these questions back to you there is a tendency to simply ignore it because it doesn't fit your philosophy. At the very least it shows a massive amount of cognitive dissonance.

You are assuming that black people are being shot by police whereas I am stating focus on people being shot by police. Your idea is racist. Mine isn't. You've also given a very confrontational example. My opinion is that when you focus so much on issues like this you start to find slights everywhere and it's abhorrent. It's racist. It doesn't help anyone especially the people you are telling us that are trying to help.

I think it has nothing to do with helping people. I think it has everything to do with you getting on your high moral horse and creating issues. I think that this is why a bunch of you react so poorly when you are confronted on this issue. I'm not stating that you personally are reacting poorly. I am stating that you are either misguided or uneducated.

I should add that this thread has been fantastic for me personally because my gut feel on this issue which I can I think articulate reasonably well has been backed up by some links and ideas on this thread that have clarified my position. This thread has helped educate me. The arguments from people espousing your viewpoint have shown me how abhorrent and bad they really are. This was my gut feel initially as well but it just seems so much clearer now.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1028 on: March 27, 2019, 03:15:34 PM »
I'll add that the people that believe this stuff often live their lives as per your quote from Dostoevsky. They go looking for grievances. It doesn't have anything to do with actually helping people as well. It's not a humanist philosophy. It's a philosophy of hatred and bigotry.

I bet if the perspective changed to helping out disadvantaged people a whole bunch of them wouldn't be interested. They aren't trying to help people. They want to engage that chip on their shoulder. I find it disgusting.

There are certainly people out there that go looking for grievances. My person experience has been that there is no correlation between that particular character trait and any one political position.

Almost all of the people I know are genuinely kind and want to help other people out. I think almost everyone involved in this thread also fits that description (you included, steveo). Even if the people you describe above exist, they are not the ones you are talking to right now. You're either talking past a lot of us, or you're making assumptions about our positions that aren't true.

I don't believe this. There have been multiple examples of poor reasoning and emotional overreactions from people parotting these in my opinion racist ideas, I don't think a bunch of you want to help. I reckon for most of you it's a tribal cause. It's something to get riled up about and call other people racist. I get that feeling like that can make you feel righteous anger.

I will state that I think the posters still responding tend to be a lot more emotionally mature than the ones who have dropped off.

I think a bunch of you are just misguided but your philosophy is still racist.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 03:21:03 PM by steveo »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1029 on: March 27, 2019, 03:17:05 PM »


I really don't understand your obsession with CRT. First of all, no one has brought it up in this thread except you, even though many of the people here are pretty far left. More importantly, CRT is just an academic framework for approaching an issue. It's no different than structuralism, or utilitarianism. It's a tool people apply. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes its not. Only the outermost fringes of the fringes (on both sides) treat it like an inviolable religion.


CRT is the foundation of the diversity inclusion and equity program, only it's dressed up in beautiful words, but in reality the whole concept is racist, sexist, and limiting.

No one has brought it up here because the lack of understanding of the field and the connections. Rather, most proponents of these policies just push these beautiful words which now have completely different meanings.

"Diversity" pushed by Social Justice is a justified form of naked discrimination. "Inclusion" means a demand for restricted speech. "Equity" is affirmative action that goes further and cuts down. To them, it is ALL "Justice."

Just to drive the point home with you, the notion of structural racism, systemic racism, anti-racism, etc. These are ALL spawns of CRT which we hear all the time.

It is not just an academic framework anymore, its a set of unverifiable and unfalsifiable ideas are presented as "facts" that are then used to drive diversity policies within and outside academia. Essentially saying whites bad blacks good. This was just like in the 1600-1900s, the western philosophers rationalized how blacks were inherently inferior to drive/justify their racist policies. It is a big problem. But thank you for your opinion.

Pointing out how CRT considers addressing culture as a problem to be racist is to demonstrate how incompatible it is with rational thoughts. If you want to write off CRT as some looney bs, I am all for it.

Exactly. This is where a bunch of you are coming from. You mightn't be aware of it but this is where you are coming from.

Read this article:- https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1030 on: March 27, 2019, 03:19:07 PM »
I think I'm going to have to bow out of this thread. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding between an actual phenomena, and a theory etc to explain that phenomenon. Anisotropy feels a theory to explain racism (CRT, what have you) has actually CREATED racism. Racism was present before there were fancy, beautiful words to explain it.
In the same way when I explained mainstream science view that race is a cultural construct, not a biological one, I was told  by steveo that he "doesn't believe in "your" construct." because like a 5 year old child if something is not real to him, it is thus not real to everyone else. Maybe I should assert that Steveo is not real to me (then I can ignore him on posts). And it doesn't mean the underlying set of facts and observations and behaviors that construct was created to explain, disappears. In a good faith argument, the person would propound an alternative theory. Again, in a good faith argument.
 
Anisotropy stated that according to CRT, me saying race is a social construct that I'm "racist". I looked up a couple definitions of CRT (Brittannia, Wikipedia) and CRT refer to the "social construct of race". Um, they ALSO believe that race and racism is a social construct. Which leads me to the point you are simply trolling us and calling people racist as well as the old chestnut "f*ck you" as a reasoned response to an argument.   

 Unless there is mainstream legislation and people in office in power who are doing what he says CRT is doing to this country (very soon now, the segregation of whites, stripping of whites of power, a "total power grab") yes I am going to say you sound unhinged. Especially when you consider US politicians at the highest echeolon of power routinely say prejudiced and or racist things, retweet images from white supremacist sites and get the endorsement of the grand marshal of the KKK. And there are many European union politicians who are running on the same isolationist anti-immigrant platform. Race and ethnic groups sure aint blind to them.

I'm going to try to refrain on commenting further as the saying goes, never try to wrestle with a pig: you just get dirty and the pig likes it.

As I said previously.
I don't know why any of you have engaged in this nonsense.

I've had far more satisfaction talking to my cat about the insanity in this thread. He may not be a "master" of anything other than licking himself, but...

I mean seriously, what did you expect?

Were you the smart cookie who discussed the issue without representing at all what was being said. Well done for taking the high moral ground for stating something completely different to what was actually discussed. That takes a really high level of emotional immaturity.


MOD EDIT: Rule 1
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 08:13:20 AM by arebelspy »

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1031 on: March 27, 2019, 03:23:49 PM »


I really don't understand your obsession with CRT. First of all, no one has brought it up in this thread except you, even though many of the people here are pretty far left. More importantly, CRT is just an academic framework for approaching an issue. It's no different than structuralism, or utilitarianism. It's a tool people apply. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes its not. Only the outermost fringes of the fringes (on both sides) treat it like an inviolable religion.


CRT is the foundation of the diversity inclusion and equity program, only it's dressed up in beautiful words, but in reality the whole concept is racist, sexist, and limiting.

No one has brought it up here because the lack of understanding of the field and the connections. Rather, most proponents of these policies just push these beautiful words which now have completely different meanings.

"Diversity" pushed by Social Justice is a justified form of naked discrimination. "Inclusion" means a demand for restricted speech. "Equity" is affirmative action that goes further and cuts down. To them, it is ALL "Justice."

Just to drive the point home with you, the notion of structural racism, systemic racism, anti-racism, etc. These are ALL spawns of CRT which we hear all the time.

It is not just an academic framework anymore, its a set of unverifiable and unfalsifiable ideas are presented as "facts" that are then used to drive diversity policies within and outside academia. Essentially saying whites bad blacks good. This was just like in the 1600-1900s, the western philosophers rationalized how blacks were inherently inferior to drive/justify their racist policies. It is a big problem. But thank you for your opinion.

Pointing out how CRT considers addressing culture as a problem to be racist is to demonstrate how incompatible it is with rational thoughts. If you want to write off CRT as some looney bs, I am all for it.

You're arguing against a position no one in this conversation is taking. I'm not here to defend critical race theory. It hasn't particularly informed my own positions, and though I think it makes some interesting contributions to the academic discourse, it is just a critical framework and I'd caution anyone about trying to apply any of those too broadly.

If you're worried about what I mean if I say diversity, or inclusion, or equity, why don't you ask me?

It is not just a critical framework in the academic circle anymore. Virtually all the buzzwords and concepts that are driving policies today, ie, white privilege, safe space, microaggression, triggering.

They all came from CRT. CRT is now being used to form the very basis of extremely racist notions such as:

A positive white identity is impossible; white supremacy lives in every single white person; whiteness is responsible for all the problems minorities face, the existence of whiteness needs to criticized so on so forth. 

A concrete example would be the notion that meritocracy/test scores are racists as MANY posters have been saying in this thread alone. That came straight out of CRT.

Another example would be Blacks are suffering because of white culture. That came straight of CRT.

The very notion of systemic racism IS the central premise of CRT. Do you get it now? CRT IS the ideology behind progressives' view on racial issues.



anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1032 on: March 27, 2019, 03:27:49 PM »
Black immigrants are doing fine, at least much better than homegrown American blacks. to me this points to culture. Not racism, not white culture, but American black culture.

Immigrants are people who took the initiative to leave their home for another country. That's generally not an easy thing to do. This suggests that as a subset, immigrants are harder working, more intelligent, and greater risk takers; all things that lead to success in life.

Have you considered that this could play a role in their relative success?

Harder working, greater risk takers......so.... culture ?

That's not culture. Culture is a collection of norms in a society. The top 10% of achievers and the bottom 10% have much of the same culture.

Quote
Also, does this mean, since I am an immigrant, I have a >50% chance to be more intelligent than say hmm you?  ;)

I think that's a pretty racist assumption, don't you?

I wouldn't put numbers on it but ya, I would say it's statistically likely based on the single variable of immigrant/non-immigrant.

And no, I don't think this is racist. I don't see how this relates to race at all. Can you elaborate?

ETA: https://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-global-african-immigrants-explainer-20180112-story.html

@anisotropy, I know this is a couple days old but I was curious if you have any further opinions on this. I feel that what I've said negates the idea that you can disprove societal racism against blacks by pointing out that black immigrants are doing fine. It's another significant confounding variable that you hadn't taken into consideration. That seems like something you would be interested in given your passion on this topic. What I'm most curious about is whether you will continue to use this argument and why? If you have a counterargument I would be interested in that as well.

I realize you've been engaging in several conversations with different posters, so I'll assume you just missed this one. On the other hand, if you don't respond I might be inclined to think you're ignoring posts that contradict your position when you can't refute them.

Can you say it again please? I am confused at the moment, are you saying the immigrants succeed because immigrants are harder working, more intelligent, and greater risk takers?

And that is what separates them from the homegrown black population? So where does racism come in?

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1033 on: March 27, 2019, 03:48:54 PM »
My take is that article proves the point that racism is not a significant factor in how well people progress via societal definitions. Outward appearance is not a significant factor in how well people do.

I think that the counter argument is that immigrants tend to be naturally harder working and potentially more intelligent. Maybe that is the case but that just proves those factors are much more important than someone's outward appearance which is what we've been stating.

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1034 on: March 27, 2019, 04:07:01 PM »
Firstly - are you really trying. My impression is that these questions are really one sided. A bunch of you are either suffering from low intelligence (or emotional intelligence) or you aren't discussing the topic in good faith.

I am, and in my admittedly biased view that's clear enough if you read what I've written. And this conversation has helped me come to a new understanding of your position (though it might not be one you would agree on), so it's worked to a degree.

When I raise these questions back to you there is a tendency to simply ignore it because it doesn't fit your philosophy. At the very least it shows a massive amount of cognitive dissonance.

I haven't intentionally ignored any questions. If there's something you'd like my answer on, please re-ask it. You wanted to talk about the Asian doctor example earlier, but you never responded to my comments.

You are assuming that black people are being shot by police whereas I am stating focus on people being shot by police. Your idea is racist. Mine isn't. You've also given a very confrontational example. My opinion is that when you focus so much on issues like this you start to find slights everywhere and it's abhorrent. It's racist. It doesn't help anyone especially the people you are telling us that are trying to help.

Cops in the US shoot too many people. I want to solve this, so we need to address the causes. I believe one problem is that the police in the US are overly militarized and not properly trained in de-escalation. So we need to train them better/differently. Some people also contend that one of the causes for cops shooting too many people is that they (in some cases) react differently to white citizens and black citizens. Those people have presented evidence to back up their claims. It can't be proven 100%, but we each much judge the evidence ourselves and I am compelled by the data I've seen. (None of this is to say it isn't complicated).

Calling out that morally wrong behavior (I won't use the r-word here since it bothers you) is the bare minimum I expect from myself. If I turn out to be wrong, the extra attention brought to the subject should make that clear in time. If I'm right, the extra attention will hopefully help solve the problem.

You say that my methods divide us. I can't possible speak for black people in America, but I could imagine that some of them might feel better connected to a society that at least wonders if they are being treated fairly and looks into it. And they might feel divided from a society that tells them it's unwilling to consider the evidence that they are being mistreated.

I think it has nothing to do with helping people. I think it has everything to do with you getting on your high moral horse and creating issues. I think that this is why a bunch of you react so poorly when you are confronted on this issue.

I can't think of a way to convince you that you've got me wrong.

I'm not stating that you personally are reacting poorly. I am stating that you are either misguided or uneducated.

Thanks?

I should add that this thread has been fantastic for me personally because my gut feel on this issue which I can I think articulate reasonably well has been backed up by some links and ideas on this thread that have clarified my position. This thread has helped educate me. The arguments from people espousing your viewpoint have shown me how abhorrent and bad they really are. This was my gut feel initially as well but it just seems so much clearer now.

I'm glad you've found value in the conversation. So have I (although admittedly the returns have been diminishing). For awhile I thought we were doing a good job of understanding each others positions (focusing on our similarities, as you would say) but we've obviously taken a turn towards a less productive form of debate. I don't feel like you're listening to me much, and you've levied the same charge against me, despite my best efforts.


Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1035 on: March 27, 2019, 04:15:18 PM »
The arguments from people espousing your viewpoint have shown me how abhorrent and bad they really are. This was my gut feel initially as well but it just seems so much clearer now.

It's worth remembering that we're really not that far apart, though, right?

We both believe that "classical racism" (i.e. that our race is inherently better than another race) is an absurd ideology.
We both believe in helping disenfranchised communities.
We both believe racism still exists to some degree in the world.
We both believe that it's proper to do something about racism when you come across it.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1036 on: March 27, 2019, 04:53:16 PM »
I don't feel like you're listening to me much, and you've levied the same charge against me, despite my best efforts.

To be fair on this point I think we've maybe clarified our own viewpoints.

One thing that has frustrated me is that I feel that I responded well to a bunch of questions that were I think trying to trip me up. I did it once or twice in return and posters went running to the hills. My point on young doctors being Asian and Indian was a good one and people simply couldn't engage on that point. The article stating how African immigrants do well in America is also telling. It's almost as if as soon as it's clear that the issue isn't an issue of racism some people can't handle the clear cognitive dissonance that has occurred and cannot admit they are wrong so they just don't respond.

I don't want to play that game anymore. I'm much more confident in my viewpoint and until the other viewpoint is amended to become more internally consistent I don't want to engage that viewpoint anymore.

middo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Location: Country Western Australia
  • Learning.
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1037 on: March 27, 2019, 05:17:35 PM »
I don't feel like you're listening to me much, and you've levied the same charge against me, despite my best efforts.

To be fair on this point I think we've maybe clarified our own viewpoints.

One thing that has frustrated me is that I feel that I responded well to a bunch of questions that were I think trying to trip me up. I did it once or twice in return and posters went running to the hills. My point on young doctors being Asian and Indian was a good one and people simply couldn't engage on that point. The article stating how African immigrants do well in America is also telling. It's almost as if as soon as it's clear that the issue isn't an issue of racism some people can't handle the clear cognitive dissonance that has occurred and cannot admit they are wrong so they just don't respond.

I don't want to play that game anymore. I'm much more confident in my viewpoint and until the other viewpoint is amended to become more internally consistent I don't want to engage that viewpoint anymore.

I'll try to tease apart the point about doctors for you.  Many who go to America are those that are seeking a better life.  But how do they get to America?  They must have knowledge of how to get a visa, and be able to afford the charges.  For third world countries, they therefore must be from some of the wealthier and more educated classes.  In short, they are the "winners" in their countries, and choose to leave.  The "losers" don't get to America.  They don't get a visa.  They cannot pay a people-smuggler to transport them.  America doesn't get many migrants from the bottom of the heap anymore.

Now, these "winners" come to America with certain expectations.  They have been at the top of the tree in their countries, so their expectations are that they should succeed in the new country.  Yes, they work hard.  But they also expect success, and have a sense of self confidence.  Why does this matter?

Consider someone from a poorer black community in USA.  They have been told, through TV, music, and everyday life, that they are a "loser".  They have no familiar wealth, no knowledge of how to get ahead, and no understanding of what is required to get ahead in society.  They haven't had these ideas passed onto them by their successful parents.

The book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" was so successful because it identified these issues, but did it in a non-racial way.  The social divides appear, to me, to be based on wealth and culture more than race per-se.  However, when you identify with a group because of your skin colour, then the stereotypes you see about others the same as you tend to affect your outcomes too. 

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1038 on: March 27, 2019, 05:23:38 PM »
The arguments from people espousing your viewpoint have shown me how abhorrent and bad they really are. This was my gut feel initially as well but it just seems so much clearer now.

It's worth remembering that we're really not that far apart, though, right?

We both believe that "classical racism" (i.e. that our race is inherently better than another race) is an absurd ideology.
We both believe in helping disenfranchised communities.
We both believe racism still exists to some degree in the world.
We both believe that it's proper to do something about racism when you come across it.

Agreed. There are a lot of similarities.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1039 on: March 27, 2019, 05:35:18 PM »
I don't feel like you're listening to me much, and you've levied the same charge against me, despite my best efforts.

To be fair on this point I think we've maybe clarified our own viewpoints.

One thing that has frustrated me is that I feel that I responded well to a bunch of questions that were I think trying to trip me up. I did it once or twice in return and posters went running to the hills. My point on young doctors being Asian and Indian was a good one and people simply couldn't engage on that point. The article stating how African immigrants do well in America is also telling. It's almost as if as soon as it's clear that the issue isn't an issue of racism some people can't handle the clear cognitive dissonance that has occurred and cannot admit they are wrong so they just don't respond.

I don't want to play that game anymore. I'm much more confident in my viewpoint and until the other viewpoint is amended to become more internally consistent I don't want to engage that viewpoint anymore.

I'll try to tease apart the point about doctors for you.  Many who go to America are those that are seeking a better life.  But how do they get to America?  They must have knowledge of how to get a visa, and be able to afford the charges.  For third world countries, they therefore must be from some of the wealthier and more educated classes.  In short, they are the "winners" in their countries, and choose to leave.  The "losers" don't get to America.  They don't get a visa.  They cannot pay a people-smuggler to transport them.  America doesn't get many migrants from the bottom of the heap anymore.

Now, these "winners" come to America with certain expectations.  They have been at the top of the tree in their countries, so their expectations are that they should succeed in the new country.  Yes, they work hard.  But they also expect success, and have a sense of self confidence.  Why does this matter?

Consider someone from a poorer black community in USA.  They have been told, through TV, music, and everyday life, that they are a "loser".  They have no familiar wealth, no knowledge of how to get ahead, and no understanding of what is required to get ahead in society.  They haven't had these ideas passed onto them by their successful parents.

The book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" was so successful because it identified these issues, but did it in a non-racial way.  The social divides appear, to me, to be based on wealth and culture more than race per-se.  However, when you identify with a group because of your skin colour, then the stereotypes you see about others the same as you tend to affect your outcomes too.

I get it. This is though just proving that racism is not a factor. It's clearly cultural.

I think you may think that you are disagreeing with me but you aren't. You have proved my point.

The problem is that today there are people arguing that racism is what is holding people back but as per your example they mean culture. They should just call it culture beacuse that is what they are stating.

middo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Location: Country Western Australia
  • Learning.
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1040 on: March 27, 2019, 06:43:47 PM »
I don't feel like you're listening to me much, and you've levied the same charge against me, despite my best efforts.

To be fair on this point I think we've maybe clarified our own viewpoints.

One thing that has frustrated me is that I feel that I responded well to a bunch of questions that were I think trying to trip me up. I did it once or twice in return and posters went running to the hills. My point on young doctors being Asian and Indian was a good one and people simply couldn't engage on that point. The article stating how African immigrants do well in America is also telling. It's almost as if as soon as it's clear that the issue isn't an issue of racism some people can't handle the clear cognitive dissonance that has occurred and cannot admit they are wrong so they just don't respond.

I don't want to play that game anymore. I'm much more confident in my viewpoint and until the other viewpoint is amended to become more internally consistent I don't want to engage that viewpoint anymore.

I'll try to tease apart the point about doctors for you.  Many who go to America are those that are seeking a better life.  But how do they get to America?  They must have knowledge of how to get a visa, and be able to afford the charges.  For third world countries, they therefore must be from some of the wealthier and more educated classes.  In short, they are the "winners" in their countries, and choose to leave.  The "losers" don't get to America.  They don't get a visa.  They cannot pay a people-smuggler to transport them.  America doesn't get many migrants from the bottom of the heap anymore.

Now, these "winners" come to America with certain expectations.  They have been at the top of the tree in their countries, so their expectations are that they should succeed in the new country.  Yes, they work hard.  But they also expect success, and have a sense of self confidence.  Why does this matter?

Consider someone from a poorer black community in USA.  They have been told, through TV, music, and everyday life, that they are a "loser".  They have no familiar wealth, no knowledge of how to get ahead, and no understanding of what is required to get ahead in society.  They haven't had these ideas passed onto them by their successful parents.

The book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" was so successful because it identified these issues, but did it in a non-racial way.  The social divides appear, to me, to be based on wealth and culture more than race per-se.  However, when you identify with a group because of your skin colour, then the stereotypes you see about others the same as you tend to affect your outcomes too.

I get it. This is though just proving that racism is not a factor. It's clearly cultural.

I think you may think that you are disagreeing with me but you aren't. You have proved my point.

The problem is that today there are people arguing that racism is what is holding people back but as per your example they mean culture. They should just call it culture beacuse that is what they are stating.

I think you missed the last part of my post:

"However, when you identify with a group because of your skin colour, then the stereotypes you see about others the same as you tend to affect your outcomes too. "

Skin colour is something we all see.  Culture is the problem, but how can you escape that culture if your skin colour helps to define it?  So, no, I don't think we agree fully. 

Yes, it is culture.  But that culture is affected by a persons race.  Both from their position, and from others in society.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1041 on: March 27, 2019, 08:01:16 PM »
The arguments from people espousing your viewpoint have shown me how abhorrent and bad they really are. This was my gut feel initially as well but it just seems so much clearer now.

It's worth remembering that we're really not that far apart, though, right?

We both believe that "classical racism" (i.e. that our race is inherently better than another race) is an absurd ideology.
We both believe in helping disenfranchised communities.
We both believe racism still exists to some degree in the world.
We both believe that it's proper to do something about racism when you come across it.

Agreed. There are a lot of similarities.

Exactly, we all agree on those things. But the one thing that divides us (at least between me and the progressive policy supporters) is that I do not believe in

A positive white identity is impossible; white supremacy lives in every single white person; whiteness is responsible for all the problems minorities face, the existence of whiteness needs to criticized so on so forth. 


Those are simply incredibly racist claims dressed in scholarly clothes. And other accompanying claims such as

meritocracy/standardized tests are racists, blacks are suffering because of white culture, and most importantly, systemic racism/white privilege plays a huge (ie major) role in explaining why the black population are and stay impoverished.

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2552
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1042 on: March 27, 2019, 08:38:08 PM »
Black immigrants are doing fine, at least much better than homegrown American blacks. to me this points to culture. Not racism, not white culture, but American black culture.

Immigrants are people who took the initiative to leave their home for another country. That's generally not an easy thing to do. This suggests that as a subset, immigrants are harder working, more intelligent, and greater risk takers; all things that lead to success in life.

Have you considered that this could play a role in their relative success?

Harder working, greater risk takers......so.... culture ?

That's not culture. Culture is a collection of norms in a society. The top 10% of achievers and the bottom 10% have much of the same culture.

Quote
Also, does this mean, since I am an immigrant, I have a >50% chance to be more intelligent than say hmm you?  ;)

I think that's a pretty racist assumption, don't you?

I wouldn't put numbers on it but ya, I would say it's statistically likely based on the single variable of immigrant/non-immigrant.

And no, I don't think this is racist. I don't see how this relates to race at all. Can you elaborate?

ETA: https://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-global-african-immigrants-explainer-20180112-story.html

@anisotropy, I know this is a couple days old but I was curious if you have any further opinions on this. I feel that what I've said negates the idea that you can disprove societal racism against blacks by pointing out that black immigrants are doing fine. It's another significant confounding variable that you hadn't taken into consideration. That seems like something you would be interested in given your passion on this topic. What I'm most curious about is whether you will continue to use this argument and why? If you have a counterargument I would be interested in that as well.

I realize you've been engaging in several conversations with different posters, so I'll assume you just missed this one. On the other hand, if you don't respond I might be inclined to think you're ignoring posts that contradict your position when you can't refute them.

Can you say it again please? I am confused at the moment, are you saying the immigrants succeed because immigrants are harder working, more intelligent, and greater risk takers?

Than the average of all black Americans who remain where they were born, yes.

Quote
And that is what separates them from the homegrown black population?

As opposed to your idea that culture is what separates them, yes.  Or at least in part. I have some other arguments against your theory as well such as restrictions placed on immigration which select for the better educated, but I feel this is the strongest argument so letís stick to one at a time.

Quote
So where does racism come in?

I'm not making an argument for the existence of racism. Let's put that aside for a moment. I'm refuting a specific argument you've made against the existence of racism.

Your position is that the average African immigrant is doing fine or at least much better than the average "homegrown American black". Therefore what's holding them back is not skin color but something about the culture of "homegrown American blacks". Is this correct?

My position is that immigrants are a self-selecting population. We have evidence that the average of this population is more successful than the average of the native population from which they came. Therefore, the fact that this population of black immigrants is more successful than the native black population in America doesnít tell us anything at all. Itís entirely possible that racism exists and this population is more prepared to overcome it.


To put it more simply Ė you say culture is the only variable between these two populations and your conclusion is that it must be the culture. I say, here is another variable which confounds your conclusion. Do you dispute the variable of self-selection in the immigrant population?

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2552
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1043 on: March 27, 2019, 08:51:34 PM »
The arguments from people espousing your viewpoint have shown me how abhorrent and bad they really are. This was my gut feel initially as well but it just seems so much clearer now.

It's worth remembering that we're really not that far apart, though, right?

We both believe that "classical racism" (i.e. that our race is inherently better than another race) is an absurd ideology.
We both believe in helping disenfranchised communities.
We both believe racism still exists to some degree in the world.
We both believe that it's proper to do something about racism when you come across it.

Agreed. There are a lot of similarities.

Exactly, we all agree on those things. But the one thing that divides us (at least between me and the progressive policy supporters) is that I do not believe in

A positive white identity is impossible; white supremacy lives in every single white person; whiteness is responsible for all the problems minorities face, the existence of whiteness needs to criticized so on so forth. 


Those are simply incredibly racist claims dressed in scholarly clothes. And other accompanying claims such as

meritocracy/standardized tests are racists, blacks are suffering because of white culture, and most importantly, systemic racism/white privilege plays a huge (ie major) role in explaining why the black population are and stay impoverished.

Does anyone, anyone at all, believe any of these things?

Also interesting that every one of these claims contains an absolute: impossible, every, all, existence. I rarely trust any statement that contains such words.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1044 on: March 27, 2019, 09:04:33 PM »
My position is that immigrants are a self-selecting population. We have evidence that the average of this population is more successful than the average of the native population from which they came. Therefore, the fact that this population of black immigrants is more successful than the native black population in America doesnít tell us anything at all. Itís entirely possible that racism exists and this population is more prepared to overcome it.

Maybe you are correct but what is the likelihood of that and what is the significance ? I think you aren't being honest with yourself. I think that this fact proves that racism is far from a significant factor. It shows the holes in your argument and I think you should face that issue.

At the very least a rational person would accept that racism is not a significant factor in people's success. Other factors have to be more important. You're position cannot be justified in the face of this fact. You can really only state now that racism is a factor but it's not significant.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1045 on: March 27, 2019, 09:09:40 PM »
The arguments from people espousing your viewpoint have shown me how abhorrent and bad they really are. This was my gut feel initially as well but it just seems so much clearer now.

It's worth remembering that we're really not that far apart, though, right?

We both believe that "classical racism" (i.e. that our race is inherently better than another race) is an absurd ideology.
We both believe in helping disenfranchised communities.
We both believe racism still exists to some degree in the world.
We both believe that it's proper to do something about racism when you come across it.

Agreed. There are a lot of similarities.

Exactly, we all agree on those things. But the one thing that divides us (at least between me and the progressive policy supporters) is that I do not believe in

A positive white identity is impossible; white supremacy lives in every single white person; whiteness is responsible for all the problems minorities face, the existence of whiteness needs to criticized so on so forth. 


Those are simply incredibly racist claims dressed in scholarly clothes. And other accompanying claims such as

meritocracy/standardized tests are racists, blacks are suffering because of white culture, and most importantly, systemic racism/white privilege plays a huge (ie major) role in explaining why the black population are and stay impoverished.

Does anyone, anyone at all, believe any of these things?

Also interesting that every one of these claims contains an absolute: impossible, every, all, existence. I rarely trust any statement that contains such words.

I don't think you believe in the initial whiteness comment that you marked. I think you are stating the second point that was italicised.

You definitely aren't stating that the real definition of racism is a significant issue today. If you are then you are suffering from cognitive dissonance because we have all agreed that people from all different backgrounds can and are just as successful as white people today.

I think it's clear you need to go back to the drawing board and articulate a rational argument. At the moment you don't have that.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4878
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1046 on: March 27, 2019, 09:19:40 PM »
Exactly, we all agree on those things. But the one thing that divides us (at least between me and the progressive policy supporters) is that I do not believe in

A positive white identity is impossible; white supremacy lives in every single white person; whiteness is responsible for all the problems minorities face, the existence of whiteness needs to criticized so on so forth. 


Those are simply incredibly racist claims dressed in scholarly clothes. And other accompanying claims such as

meritocracy/standardized tests are racists, blacks are suffering because of white culture, and most importantly, systemic racism/white privilege plays a huge (ie major) role in explaining why the black population are and stay impoverished.

Does anyone, anyone at all, believe any of these things?

Also interesting that every one of these claims contains an absolute: impossible, every, all, existence. I rarely trust any statement that contains such words.

I don't think you believe in the initial whiteness comment that you marked. I think you are stating the second point that was italicised.

You definitely aren't stating that the real definition of racism is a significant issue today. If you are then you are suffering from cognitive dissonance because we have all agreed that people from all different backgrounds can and are just as successful as white people today.

I think it's clear you need to go back to the drawing board and articulate a rational argument. At the moment you don't have that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I think it's clear you need to go back to the drawing board and articulate a rational argument. At the moment you're using logical fallacies.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1047 on: March 27, 2019, 09:34:29 PM »
Exactly, we all agree on those things. But the one thing that divides us (at least between me and the progressive policy supporters) is that I do not believe in

A positive white identity is impossible; white supremacy lives in every single white person; whiteness is responsible for all the problems minorities face, the existence of whiteness needs to criticized so on so forth. 


Those are simply incredibly racist claims dressed in scholarly clothes. And other accompanying claims such as

meritocracy/standardized tests are racists, blacks are suffering because of white culture, and most importantly, systemic racism/white privilege plays a huge (ie major) role in explaining why the black population are and stay impoverished.

Does anyone, anyone at all, believe any of these things?

Also interesting that every one of these claims contains an absolute: impossible, every, all, existence. I rarely trust any statement that contains such words.

I don't think you believe in the initial whiteness comment that you marked. I think you are stating the second point that was italicised.

You definitely aren't stating that the real definition of racism is a significant issue today. If you are then you are suffering from cognitive dissonance because we have all agreed that people from all different backgrounds can and are just as successful as white people today.

I think it's clear you need to go back to the drawing board and articulate a rational argument. At the moment you don't have that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I think it's clear you need to go back to the drawing board and articulate a rational argument. At the moment you're using logical fallacies.

It's interesting that you can't respond to my comments. Your comment is irrational. You have to provide a logical argument to explain the facts that have been clearly articulated (even by your side) that make it clear that racism is not a significant factor in people's success.

Try to face the issue. If you can't admit it. It's cool. That would be progress for you personally. That is tops.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4878
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1048 on: March 27, 2019, 09:49:27 PM »
Exactly, we all agree on those things. But the one thing that divides us (at least between me and the progressive policy supporters) is that I do not believe in

A positive white identity is impossible; white supremacy lives in every single white person; whiteness is responsible for all the problems minorities face, the existence of whiteness needs to criticized so on so forth. 


Those are simply incredibly racist claims dressed in scholarly clothes. And other accompanying claims such as

meritocracy/standardized tests are racists, blacks are suffering because of white culture, and most importantly, systemic racism/white privilege plays a huge (ie major) role in explaining why the black population are and stay impoverished.

Does anyone, anyone at all, believe any of these things?

Also interesting that every one of these claims contains an absolute: impossible, every, all, existence. I rarely trust any statement that contains such words.

I don't think you believe in the initial whiteness comment that you marked. I think you are stating the second point that was italicised.

You definitely aren't stating that the real definition of racism is a significant issue today. If you are then you are suffering from cognitive dissonance because we have all agreed that people from all different backgrounds can and are just as successful as white people today.

I think it's clear you need to go back to the drawing board and articulate a rational argument. At the moment you don't have that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I think it's clear you need to go back to the drawing board and articulate a rational argument. At the moment you're using logical fallacies.

It's interesting that you can't respond to my comments. Your comment is irrational. You have to provide a logical argument to explain the facts that have been clearly articulated (even by your side) that make it clear that racism is not a significant factor in people's success.

Try to face the issue. If you can't admit it. It's cool. That would be progress for you personally. That is tops.

It's interesting that you can't acknowledge your logical fallacy. In fact, you can't answer the question without responding with fallacy after fallacy.

Try to face the issue. The last 5 pages have been nothing but boasts, patting on the back, and opinions masquerading as facts. Admit it and it'll help your personal growth.

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2552
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1049 on: March 27, 2019, 09:52:10 PM »
My position is that immigrants are a self-selecting population. We have evidence that the average of this population is more successful than the average of the native population from which they came. Therefore, the fact that this population of black immigrants is more successful than the native black population in America doesnít tell us anything at all. Itís entirely possible that racism exists and this population is more prepared to overcome it.

Maybe you are correct but what is the likelihood of that
High
Quote
and what is the significance?
Significant
Quote
I think you aren't being honest with yourself.
?
Quote
I think that this fact proves that racism is far from a significant factor.
The fact that you think I'm dishonest with myself proves something?
Quote
It shows the holes in your argument and I think you should face that issue.
What holes specifically?

Quote
At the very least a rational person would accept that racism is not a significant factor in people's success. Other factors have to be more important. You're position cannot be justified in the face of this fact. You can really only state now that racism is a factor but it's not significant.

I can't imagine anyone reading this comment has any clue what you're trying to say.