Author Topic: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?  (Read 67474 times)

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #950 on: March 25, 2019, 05:31:45 PM »
So Collins is a fraud, same accusation since the 1980s. Where is the damn proof? Just like Inquiry into Cliton's "emails" Trumps "collusions", where is the damn proof? Collins' detractors had 40 years to do it, so where is it?

You want to talk about why the reconstruction failed? you want to talk about why the Klan rose to take everything away? Because the dumb-ass white lefts pushed too hard out of guilt and vengeance. Same kind of bullshit that's going on today.

When are you going to realize the "anti-racist" policies only make things worse? When trump wins again in 2020?

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4880
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #951 on: March 25, 2019, 05:33:09 PM »
You want to talk about why the reconstruction failed? you want to talk about why the Klan rose to take everything away? Because the dumb-ass white lefts pushed too hard out of guilt and vengeance. Same kind of bullshit that's going on today.

And now we get to the crux of the matter. Didn't take long.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #952 on: March 25, 2019, 05:35:55 PM »
the crux being how anti-racist policies is actually racist and create more problems than it solves? ya that has been my original thesis all along.

Let me say it again.

It. Does. Not. Work
It. Has. Never. Worked. Anywhere. In. The. World.


but seriously though, wheres the proof that Collins was a fraud?

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #953 on: March 25, 2019, 05:36:51 PM »
I can see now why you recommended the sapiens book, seems you both share the "fuzzy world view hobbled by political correctness" - WaPo.

The help white-left prescribed, namely, problematizing everything, excessive welfare (it was even foretold way back in the 60s it would end up ruin the black population and exacerbate the issue), the soft bigotry of low expectations, the focus on grievance, oppression, racism. made things way worse. The only group of ppl that benefited from this turned out to be the white-lefts who had prescribed them, what a coincidence no?

The help I am proposing, is the path that EVERY other migrant group in the States had gone through, and worked every single time. The change must ultimately come from within, ie, endogenous, not externally.

It makes sense to me that you don't understand the differences. After all, It Is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it; it is even more difficult when his online "woke" status depends on his not understanding it.

;)

I'm not really woke, whatever that means.  What I am is a guy that spent a bunch of time growing up in the south hearing constantly from white people how much they disliked and despised black people.  How they wouldn't give black people a job because they were lazy.  Then they got all pissed off when black people were unemployed and needed public assistance because they were a lazy ass n****r.  Seriously if you've not been there you cannot understand the almost physical revulsion southern white people feel towards black people.  And if/when a black person, against all odds DID succeed, they were referred to as "an uppity n****r" that "don't know their place".  This shit is real, its constant and in fact I've never heard the level of intense hatred ever leveled at another group.  Not even 'the damn wetbacks' as my relatives now refer to hispanic people.  Sure, there's some resentment towards hispanics, but nowhere near the level of rage that's directed at black people.  These are things I've seen/heard first hand.  Many, many, many times.  It's not that black people don't try to succeed.  It's that 'nice white folks' bitterly smack them down if they ever gain even a foothold in middle class society.  Black people want to succeed.  It's the nice white folks that don't want them to, and who do everything in their power to ensure they fail. 

So trust me, I understand the problem.  It's not black culture.  It's white culture. 

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #954 on: March 25, 2019, 05:45:30 PM »
ok I am going to break it down in CRT fashion.

the level of intense hatred
aka grievance

"you've not been there you cannot understand the almost physical revulsion southern white people feel towards black people"
aka lived experience

"And if/when a black person, against all odds DID succeed, they were referred to as "an uppity n****r" that "don't know their place
aka oppression is race based, not success based

It's the nice white folks that don't want them to, and who do everything in their power to ensure they fail. 
aka Structural Racism


So trust me, I understand the problem.  It's not black culture.  It's white culture.
aka whiteness is the problem


Hence critical race theory is born as an offspring of grievance studies.

You ever wondered if these white racists would be equally upset if the media focused on positive black history instead of the negative bits

Focus on valor, on brotherhood (sisterhood too), on sameness. There are tons of black historical figures that made the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the nation, or even white people. Focus on THEM.

Not focus on the bs that make everyone feel bad about.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 05:47:54 PM by anisotropy »

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #955 on: March 25, 2019, 05:59:49 PM »
ok I am going to break it down in CRT fashion.

the level of intense hatred
aka grievance

"you've not been there you cannot understand the almost physical revulsion southern white people feel towards black people"
aka lived experience

"And if/when a black person, against all odds DID succeed, they were referred to as "an uppity n****r" that "don't know their place
aka oppression is race based, not success based

It's the nice white folks that don't want them to, and who do everything in their power to ensure they fail. 
aka Structural Racism


So trust me, I understand the problem.  It's not black culture.  It's white culture.
aka whiteness is the problem


Hence critical race theory is born as an offspring of grievance studies.

You ever wondered if these white racists would be equally upset if the media focused on positive black history instead of the negative bits

Focus on valor, on brotherhood (sisterhood too), on sameness. There are tons of black historical figures that made the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the nation, or even white people. Focus on THEM.

Not focus on the bs that make everyone feel bad about.

You seem to have missed my point.  Look, I don't know why you seem to have such a problem accepting the idea that black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down.  That's what I've observed my entire life.  Are you trying to say that my observations are not true? 

I'm not saying white people hate all minorities.  They seem to be pretty meh about asians and indians, moderately dislike the hispanics and downright hate black people.  It's hard to make it in America when your surrounding community does everything in it's power to make sure your schools suck, you don't get jobs, and you never ever move out of your neighborhood into nice white neighborhoods. 

That may be less true in large cities but it is very very very true in every small to midsized town I've even been in. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 06:08:22 PM by tyort1 »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16347
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #956 on: March 25, 2019, 06:04:14 PM »
You want to talk about why the reconstruction failed? you want to talk about why the Klan rose to take everything away? Because the dumb-ass white lefts pushed too hard out of guilt and vengeance. Same kind of bullshit that's going on today.

The Klan rose up because the dumb-ass white leftists pushed too hard out of guilt and vengeance?  I'm hesitant to ask this, but what would you have preferred occurred in US history in the reconstruction?  The continuation of slavery?

I'd personally feel quite honoured to be counted among the same sort of "dumb-ass white leftists" that you appear to hate.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #957 on: March 25, 2019, 06:09:50 PM »
I agree with you black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down. What I am saying is they get smacked down because of policies prescribed by the white-left effectively chains them to the ground.

Ask yourself, if those policies worked, wouldn't we see a drastic improvement?

Instead things get worse all the time for the blacks while the racist whites continue to harbour resentments. Who profited from all of these? That's right, the white-lefts that prescribed it.

A sizeable group of blacks are now walking away from the white-lefts because they now see through the whole bs. If this continue, the Ds will lose at least 10-15% of the black votes as soon as 2020, provided the Ds get a non-black candidate.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #958 on: March 25, 2019, 06:18:44 PM »
I agree with you black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down. What I am saying is they get smacked down because of policies prescribed by the white-left effectively chains them to the ground.

Ask yourself, if those policies worked, wouldn't we see a drastic improvement?

Instead things get worse all the time for the blacks while the racist whites continue to harbour resentments. Who profited from all of these? That's right, the white-lefts that prescribed it.

A sizeable group of blacks are now walking away from the white-lefts because they now see through the whole bs. If this continue, the Ds will lose at least 10-15% of the black votes as soon as 2020, provided the Ds get a non-black candidate.

So your theory is that some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people.  Really?  That sounds like some crazy conspiracy theory stuff. 

In my observation, there's a much simpler explanation.  In the South, white people have always been better off than black people.  And the white people there want to make sure it stays that way. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16347
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #959 on: March 25, 2019, 06:22:10 PM »
I agree with you black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down. What I am saying is they get smacked down because of policies prescribed by the white-left effectively chains them to the ground.

Ask yourself, if those policies worked, wouldn't we see a drastic improvement?

Instead things get worse all the time for the blacks while the racist whites continue to harbour resentments. Who profited from all of these? That's right, the white-lefts that prescribed it.

A sizeable group of blacks are now walking away from the white-lefts because they now see through the whole bs. If this continue, the Ds will lose at least 10-15% of the black votes as soon as 2020, provided the Ds get a non-black candidate.

I think the policy of ending the American South's well loved tradition of slavery was a step in the right direction.  So was granting black people the right to vote.  So was the policy of ending segregation.  All of these were huge steps of progress.  It's entirely because of these 'dumb-ass white liberals' that this happened.

Things are better today than they were in the 1800s, the 1900s, the 1930s, the 1960s, the 1980s . . . because we have been making steady progress.

Unlike you, I'm not terribly sorry if some feathers were ruffled among the 'very fine people' on the white supremacist side in the process.  They need to get the fuck over their resentment at not being able to continue to oppress others.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #960 on: March 25, 2019, 06:33:09 PM »
I agree with you black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down. What I am saying is they get smacked down because of policies prescribed by the white-left effectively chains them to the ground.

Ask yourself, if those policies worked, wouldn't we see a drastic improvement?

Instead things get worse all the time for the blacks while the racist whites continue to harbour resentments. Who profited from all of these? That's right, the white-lefts that prescribed it.

A sizeable group of blacks are now walking away from the white-lefts because they now see through the whole bs. If this continue, the Ds will lose at least 10-15% of the black votes as soon as 2020, provided the Ds get a non-black candidate.

So your theory is that some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people.  Really?  That sounds like some crazy conspiracy theory stuff. 

In my observation, there's a much simpler explanation.  In the South, white people have always been better off than black people.  And the white people there want to make sure it stays that way.

lol wtf "some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people" huh wtf you talking about.

I am going to try to spell it out as clearly as possible, one last time.

White-left policies (ie, excessive welfare, focus on "grievance, oppression, racism", and the soft bigotry of low expectations, problematizing everything) effectively told the blacks: you guys ain't nothing without handouts and we nice whites who fight for your rights.

The policies simply KEPT the blacks in limbo, prevented them from completing the same integration path that EVERY other ethnic group went through to reduce stigma and discrimination. As a result, on almost every measureable metrics, whether test scores, crime rates, unemployment rates, etc, blacks ranked dead last.

So these policies did not help the blacks, as they are in worse shape today than 10 years, 20 years, even 30-40 years ago. Who won big in this decade long hustle?

The white-lefts, the same group of people that prescribed these policies to begin with. Since 2016, an increasing number of younger but educated blacks, who are sick of being viewed as "victims" by the identitarian left and "criminals" by the racist right are having their own political movement to remove themselves from the nice white guys (aka the Ds).

They are promoting pretty much the same things I listed out. To focus on the positive part of black history, to focus on the sameness between black population and the rest of America. To end excessive amount of external help so they could make endogenous change to reclaim confidence via responsibility.

You can certainly disagree with them, but I think that's the right way forward.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #961 on: March 25, 2019, 06:45:37 PM »

Things are better today than they were in the 1800s, the 1900s, the 1930s, the 1960s, the 1980s . . . because we have been making steady progress.


you know what, those are almost the same words I said in another thread, which you were a participant, so you're welcome. ;)

The progress is really only on civil rights (cargo to slaves to 2nd class citizens to full citizen), but not the social-econ conditions much. And like I said just now, white-left policies are to blame.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #962 on: March 25, 2019, 06:50:27 PM »
I agree with you black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down. What I am saying is they get smacked down because of policies prescribed by the white-left effectively chains them to the ground.

Ask yourself, if those policies worked, wouldn't we see a drastic improvement?

Instead things get worse all the time for the blacks while the racist whites continue to harbour resentments. Who profited from all of these? That's right, the white-lefts that prescribed it.

A sizeable group of blacks are now walking away from the white-lefts because they now see through the whole bs. If this continue, the Ds will lose at least 10-15% of the black votes as soon as 2020, provided the Ds get a non-black candidate.

So your theory is that some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people.  Really?  That sounds like some crazy conspiracy theory stuff. 

In my observation, there's a much simpler explanation.  In the South, white people have always been better off than black people.  And the white people there want to make sure it stays that way.

lol wtf "some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people" huh wtf you talking about.

I am going to try to spell it out as clearly as possible, one last time.

White-left policies (ie, excessive welfare, focus on "grievance, oppression, racism", and the soft bigotry of low expectations, problematizing everything) effectively told the blacks: you guys ain't nothing without handouts and we nice whites who fight for your rights.

The policies simply KEPT the blacks in limbo, prevented them from completing the same integration path that EVERY other ethnic group went through to reduce stigma and discrimination. As a result, on almost every measureable metrics, whether test scores, crime rates, unemployment rates, etc, blacks ranked dead last.

So these policies did not help the blacks, as they are in worse shape today than 10 years, 20 years, even 30-40 years ago. Who won big in this decade long hustle?

The white-lefts, the same group of people that prescribed these policies to begin with. Since 2016, an increasing number of younger but educated blacks, who are sick of being viewed as "victims" by the identitarian left and "criminals" by the racist right are having their own political movement to remove themselves from the nice white guys (aka the Ds).

They are promoting pretty much the same things I listed out. To focus on the positive part of black history, to focus on the sameness between black population and the rest of America. To end excessive amount of external help so they could make endogenous change to reclaim confidence via responsibility.

You can certainly disagree with them, but I think that's the right way forward.

Oh I understand what you are saying.  You're just wrong.  So, so wrong.  Let me ask you - have you ever lived in the south?  Spent much time in any of the mid sized to small towns there? 

However, in the interest of trying to find common ground let me say something very clear and very plainly so you can understand.  I agree with you that focusing on positive achievement and giving people skills (and opportunities) is the way forward.  We want black people to succeed and live life on their own terms.  On this point we are in absolute, 100% agreement.

The issue I see, however, is that I think that the people who have job openings (ie, nice white people) will continue to act as they always have.  When 2 people of equal ability and skill apply for a job, they will say:  "Well, that black person was OK, but this white person is more qualified."  It's a small decision made at the local level.  But it's repeated.  And repeated.  And repeated.  And you end up with even well qualified black people being shut out. 

See, racism doesn't have to be overt and rabid.  It can be a sort of soft racism that says "I don't hate black people, but that candidate just wasn't quite good enough."  I see that happening all the time too. 

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4058
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #963 on: March 25, 2019, 07:03:06 PM »
Here's another example. In Durham there actually was a flourishing black businesses. Everything from home construction to barber shops to grocery stores. There was one of the first black-owned insurance companies. My office in this building, as well as the office of our local congressman.
No, during that time they didn't sell or transact to white people due to racial prejudice but within their own community there was one success story after another. Downtown was also flourishing. However the "problem" that occurred, was desegregation. Blacks could now shop downtown. The perception became that there were too many blacks, and whites fled from downtown, took their shopping to the outskirts of the town. What did the city do, to encourage both these new shoppers and the black businesses that supported them? They built a highway separating "black wall street" from the rest of the downtown (effectively killing it). Anyways, this is what people who live here told me. Both blacks and whites felt the location of where the highway went, was intentional.

Yes, blacks have been saying quite awhile now, please, get out of our way! But it's kind of hard when the culture you live in is hostile to your success.

And your silly premise it was the libs holding blacks down, well don't think was the "libs" who are building those highways (or burning businesses). Rather they were the ones investing in black businesses ahead of their time because they saw the business opportunity of it. And what was the secret of the miraculous success story in Durham's history? Simply because they had a white populace who was not actively hostile.   
 
"In addition to the hard work and prudent guidance of black business owners and managers, Du Bois credits a non-threatening white population for enabling the growth of a prosperous black community in its midst. "I consider the greatest factor in Durham's development," he writes, "the disposition of the mass of ordinary white citizens of Durham to say: 'Hands off -- give them a chance -- don't interfere'" (p. 336). Du Bois attributes this benevolent stance in part to the presence of Trinity College (now Duke University), arguing that the "influence of a Southern institution of learning of high ideals; with a president and professors who have dared to speak out for justice toward black men . . . has made white Durham willing to see black Durham rise without organizing mobs or secret societies" (p. 338)."
https://docsouth.unc.edu/highlights/dubois.html
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 07:13:00 PM by partgypsy »

middo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Location: Country Western Australia
  • Learning.
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #964 on: March 25, 2019, 07:20:52 PM »

Oh I understand what you are saying.  You're just wrong.  So, so wrong.  Let me ask you - have you ever lived in the south?  Spent much time in any of the mid sized to small towns there? 

However, in the interest of trying to find common ground let me say something very clear and very plainly so you can understand.  I agree with you that focusing on positive achievement and giving people skills (and opportunities) is the way forward.  We want black people to succeed and live life on their own terms.  On this point we are in absolute, 100% agreement.

The issue I see, however, is that I think that the people who have job openings (ie, nice white people) will continue to act as they always have.  When 2 people of equal ability and skill apply for a job, they will say: "Well, that black person was OK, but this white person is more qualified." It's a small decision made at the local level.  But it's repeated.  And repeated.  And repeated.  And you end up with even well qualified black people being shut out. 

See, racism doesn't have to be overt and rabid.  It can be a sort of soft racism that says "I don't hate black people, but that candidate just wasn't quite good enough."  I see that happening all the time too.

I disagree with the bolded section.  They tend to think that the white person is more like them, and they can see the white person behaving like them, hence they hire them.  It is a widely known phenomenon where racism isn't necessarily a reason for not hiring.  Positive bias towards your "own group" still affects hiring decisions.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #965 on: March 25, 2019, 07:29:12 PM »

Oh I understand what you are saying.  You're just wrong.  So, so wrong.  Let me ask you - have you ever lived in the south?  Spent much time in any of the mid sized to small towns there? 

However, in the interest of trying to find common ground let me say something very clear and very plainly so you can understand.  I agree with you that focusing on positive achievement and giving people skills (and opportunities) is the way forward.  We want black people to succeed and live life on their own terms.  On this point we are in absolute, 100% agreement.

The issue I see, however, is that I think that the people who have job openings (ie, nice white people) will continue to act as they always have.  When 2 people of equal ability and skill apply for a job, they will say: "Well, that black person was OK, but this white person is more qualified." It's a small decision made at the local level.  But it's repeated.  And repeated.  And repeated.  And you end up with even well qualified black people being shut out. 

See, racism doesn't have to be overt and rabid.  It can be a sort of soft racism that says "I don't hate black people, but that candidate just wasn't quite good enough."  I see that happening all the time too.

I disagree with the bolded section.  They tend to think that the white person is more like them, and they can see the white person behaving like them, hence they hire them.  It is a widely known phenomenon where racism isn't necessarily a reason for not hiring.  Positive bias towards your "own group" still affects hiring decisions.

Thank you!  Yes that's what I was trying to get at and you've described it better than I did.  A positive bias towards a white candidate is just enough to tip the scales in the white candidate's favor, even though the interviewer or hiring manager has no overt dislike of black people.  In this case, since it is based on race, I call it "soft racism".  But I'm not a researcher or academic that studies these things, just a guy that sees it happen and notices the pattern.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10289
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #966 on: March 25, 2019, 07:57:47 PM »
Positive bias towards your "own group" still affects hiring decisions.
Thank you!  Yes that's what I was trying to get at and you've described it better than I did.  A positive bias towards a white candidate is just enough to tip the scales in the white candidate's favor, even though the interviewer or hiring manager has no overt dislike of black people.  In this case, since it is based on race, I call it "soft racism".  But I'm not a researcher or academic that studies these things, just a guy that sees it happen and notices the pattern.
Yes, this is a real thing.  Some managers are better than others about making these calls, but race, nationality, gender, religious affiliation, birthplace, college attended, hobbies, and other characteristics all play a role in some managers' hiring and promotion decisions.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #967 on: March 25, 2019, 08:10:52 PM »
I agree with you black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down. What I am saying is they get smacked down because of policies prescribed by the white-left effectively chains them to the ground.

Ask yourself, if those policies worked, wouldn't we see a drastic improvement?

Instead things get worse all the time for the blacks while the racist whites continue to harbour resentments. Who profited from all of these? That's right, the white-lefts that prescribed it.

A sizeable group of blacks are now walking away from the white-lefts because they now see through the whole bs. If this continue, the Ds will lose at least 10-15% of the black votes as soon as 2020, provided the Ds get a non-black candidate.

So your theory is that some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people.  Really?  That sounds like some crazy conspiracy theory stuff. 

In my observation, there's a much simpler explanation.  In the South, white people have always been better off than black people.  And the white people there want to make sure it stays that way.

lol wtf "some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people" huh wtf you talking about.

I am going to try to spell it out as clearly as possible, one last time.

White-left policies (ie, excessive welfare, focus on "grievance, oppression, racism", and the soft bigotry of low expectations, problematizing everything) effectively told the blacks: you guys ain't nothing without handouts and we nice whites who fight for your rights.

The policies simply KEPT the blacks in limbo, prevented them from completing the same integration path that EVERY other ethnic group went through to reduce stigma and discrimination. As a result, on almost every measureable metrics, whether test scores, crime rates, unemployment rates, etc, blacks ranked dead last.

So these policies did not help the blacks, as they are in worse shape today than 10 years, 20 years, even 30-40 years ago. Who won big in this decade long hustle?

The white-lefts, the same group of people that prescribed these policies to begin with. Since 2016, an increasing number of younger but educated blacks, who are sick of being viewed as "victims" by the identitarian left and "criminals" by the racist right are having their own political movement to remove themselves from the nice white guys (aka the Ds).

They are promoting pretty much the same things I listed out. To focus on the positive part of black history, to focus on the sameness between black population and the rest of America. To end excessive amount of external help so they could make endogenous change to reclaim confidence via responsibility.

You can certainly disagree with them, but I think that's the right way forward.

Oh I understand what you are saying.  You're just wrong.  So, so wrong.  Let me ask you - have you ever lived in the south?  Spent much time in any of the mid sized to small towns there? 

However, in the interest of trying to find common ground let me say something very clear and very plainly so you can understand.  I agree with you that focusing on positive achievement and giving people skills (and opportunities) is the way forward.  We want black people to succeed and live life on their own terms.  On this point we are in absolute, 100% agreement.

The issue I see, however, is that I think that the people who have job openings (ie, nice white people) will continue to act as they always have.  When 2 people of equal ability and skill apply for a job, they will say:  "Well, that black person was OK, but this white person is more qualified."  It's a small decision made at the local level.  But it's repeated.  And repeated.  And repeated.  And you end up with even well qualified black people being shut out. 

See, racism doesn't have to be overt and rabid.  It can be a sort of soft racism that says "I don't hate black people, but that candidate just wasn't quite good enough."  I see that happening all the time too.

ok, as long as we understand each other correctly. You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong and that's ok with me.

I also have plenty of "lived exp" with things validating my views while refuting yours (ie  which guy gets picked for the job), but that's irrelevant, cuz I don't believe using lived exp as basis of policy.

Black immigrants are doing fine, at least much better than homegrown American blacks. to me this points to culture. Not racism, not white culture, but American black culture. 

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #968 on: March 25, 2019, 08:16:45 PM »
I agree with you black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down. What I am saying is they get smacked down because of policies prescribed by the white-left effectively chains them to the ground.

Ask yourself, if those policies worked, wouldn't we see a drastic improvement?

Instead things get worse all the time for the blacks while the racist whites continue to harbour resentments. Who profited from all of these? That's right, the white-lefts that prescribed it.

A sizeable group of blacks are now walking away from the white-lefts because they now see through the whole bs. If this continue, the Ds will lose at least 10-15% of the black votes as soon as 2020, provided the Ds get a non-black candidate.

So your theory is that some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people.  Really?  That sounds like some crazy conspiracy theory stuff. 

In my observation, there's a much simpler explanation.  In the South, white people have always been better off than black people.  And the white people there want to make sure it stays that way.

lol wtf "some white people pissed off some other white people and now those other white people take it out on black people" huh wtf you talking about.

I am going to try to spell it out as clearly as possible, one last time.

White-left policies (ie, excessive welfare, focus on "grievance, oppression, racism", and the soft bigotry of low expectations, problematizing everything) effectively told the blacks: you guys ain't nothing without handouts and we nice whites who fight for your rights.

The policies simply KEPT the blacks in limbo, prevented them from completing the same integration path that EVERY other ethnic group went through to reduce stigma and discrimination. As a result, on almost every measureable metrics, whether test scores, crime rates, unemployment rates, etc, blacks ranked dead last.

So these policies did not help the blacks, as they are in worse shape today than 10 years, 20 years, even 30-40 years ago. Who won big in this decade long hustle?

The white-lefts, the same group of people that prescribed these policies to begin with. Since 2016, an increasing number of younger but educated blacks, who are sick of being viewed as "victims" by the identitarian left and "criminals" by the racist right are having their own political movement to remove themselves from the nice white guys (aka the Ds).

They are promoting pretty much the same things I listed out. To focus on the positive part of black history, to focus on the sameness between black population and the rest of America. To end excessive amount of external help so they could make endogenous change to reclaim confidence via responsibility.

You can certainly disagree with them, but I think that's the right way forward.

Oh I understand what you are saying.  You're just wrong.  So, so wrong.  Let me ask you - have you ever lived in the south?  Spent much time in any of the mid sized to small towns there? 

However, in the interest of trying to find common ground let me say something very clear and very plainly so you can understand.  I agree with you that focusing on positive achievement and giving people skills (and opportunities) is the way forward.  We want black people to succeed and live life on their own terms.  On this point we are in absolute, 100% agreement.

The issue I see, however, is that I think that the people who have job openings (ie, nice white people) will continue to act as they always have.  When 2 people of equal ability and skill apply for a job, they will say:  "Well, that black person was OK, but this white person is more qualified."  It's a small decision made at the local level.  But it's repeated.  And repeated.  And repeated.  And you end up with even well qualified black people being shut out. 

See, racism doesn't have to be overt and rabid.  It can be a sort of soft racism that says "I don't hate black people, but that candidate just wasn't quite good enough."  I see that happening all the time too.

ok, as long as we understand each other correctly. You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong and that's ok with me.

I also have plenty of "lived exp" with things validating my views while refuting yours (ie  which guy gets picked for the job), but that's irrelevant, cuz I don't believe using lived exp as basis of policy.

Black immigrants are doing fine, at least much better than homegrown American blacks. to me this points to culture. Not racism, not white culture, but American black culture.

I think black immigrants tend to go to the cities where I see less of this behavior from white people.  In my own personal experience it's the middle sized and small sized towns that are really the worst.  That's part of why I moved from Texas to Denver.  Just got tired of people's smallness and nastiness.  Especially since they all seemed to be blind to it. 

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2552
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #969 on: March 25, 2019, 08:23:36 PM »
Black immigrants are doing fine, at least much better than homegrown American blacks. to me this points to culture. Not racism, not white culture, but American black culture.

Immigrants are people who took the initiative to leave their home for another country. That's generally not an easy thing to do. This suggests that as a subset, immigrants are harder working, more intelligent, and greater risk takers; all things that lead to success in life.

Have you considered that this could play a role in their relative success?

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #970 on: March 25, 2019, 08:26:54 PM »
Black immigrants are doing fine, at least much better than homegrown American blacks. to me this points to culture. Not racism, not white culture, but American black culture.

Immigrants are people who took the initiative to leave their home for another country. That's generally not an easy thing to do. This suggests that as a subset, immigrants are harder working, more intelligent, and greater risk takers; all things that lead to success in life.

Have you considered that this could play a role in their relative success?

Harder working, greater risk takers......so.... culture ?

Also, does this mean, since I am an immigrant, I have a >50% chance to be more intelligent than say hmm you?  ;)

I think that's a pretty racist assumption, don't you?

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2552
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #971 on: March 25, 2019, 08:38:23 PM »
Black immigrants are doing fine, at least much better than homegrown American blacks. to me this points to culture. Not racism, not white culture, but American black culture.

Immigrants are people who took the initiative to leave their home for another country. That's generally not an easy thing to do. This suggests that as a subset, immigrants are harder working, more intelligent, and greater risk takers; all things that lead to success in life.

Have you considered that this could play a role in their relative success?

Harder working, greater risk takers......so.... culture ?

That's not culture. Culture is a collection of norms in a society. The top 10% of achievers and the bottom 10% have much of the same culture.

Quote
Also, does this mean, since I am an immigrant, I have a >50% chance to be more intelligent than say hmm you?  ;)

I think that's a pretty racist assumption, don't you?

I wouldn't put numbers on it but ya, I would say it's statistically likely based on the single variable of immigrant/non-immigrant.

And no, I don't think this is racist. I don't see how this relates to race at all. Can you elaborate?

ETA: https://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-global-african-immigrants-explainer-20180112-story.html
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 09:14:37 PM by Dabnasty »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #972 on: March 26, 2019, 02:58:54 AM »
What is so amazing in the US is that today, it makes no difference what gender, race, or even country you are from.  Everyone has equal opportunity to get an education, work hard and succeed.  When I say everyone, I mean everyone. Yes people in poor communities have a harder time to succeed, but it is not because they are minorities but because of the culture in those communities.

Enjoyit, I think this is where the disconnect occurs. They are not necessarily happy with "equal opportunity", rather, they prefer "equal outcome", hence equity.

Namely, they want to give (more like enforce) everyone similar motivation and education necessary to succeed. This mentality either implies an absolute blank-slate model where everyone was born with equal talents and abilities or that people who are for whatever reason MORE motivated need to more scrutinized to the point of near-discrimination. An example would be how Asians, particularly East Asians are suing various schools that were also involved with recent scandals.

I am a believer in equality of opportunities, alas I grew up a commie and I know full well where equality of outcome leads.

Not at all.

I believe strongly in equal opportunity.

If you have a guy named Steve Smith and a guy named DeShawn Brown and they both submit exactly the same resume to the same set of companies, the white sounding guy gets 50% more call backs.  That is an example of the unequal opportunity that exists today as it relates to race that I think is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.
 https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/jalen-ross/black-name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/.

Equal outcome though?  No, not really.  Looking at outcomes statistically (along with other metrics) is one of several ways of roughly identifying if opportunity is the same, but I would never expect outcomes to be exactly equal across all the sex/race/sexual orientation metrics.  That's obviously unreasonable.  Of course there will be variation on a case by case basis.  In a properly functioning system, this variation should be linked to intelligence, quality of work, suitability for particular careers, etc.  Not based on having a white sounding name.

It isn't based on having a white sounding name at all. This is where you have to wake up and smell the roses. If all the doctors are called Chin or Chen do you change your statement to not having a Chinese sounding name.

Honestly the identity politics have to stop. Stop making all sorts of isms an issue and then maybe we can get somewhere. We aren't that far apart. You just want to re-engineer society based on a person's ethnic background which is racism. I think the rest of us want to make society better for all human beings. One philosophy is racist (it's an irrational tribal belief) and the other philosophy is humanist.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #973 on: March 26, 2019, 03:04:17 AM »
To heal as a country we need to acknowledge that race relations while obviously better than in the past, are still MESSED UP. Not spout whatever academic or literary bullshit you object to and think is more relevant than real people, and real lives.

This doesn't work. In Australia we've done this. It hasn't worked. It doesn't work because it doesn't solve the problem. I think it just continues the problem. The only way for people to change is to take constructive actions themselves.

I am only interested in real people and real lives. That is all I am interested in. I'm also not racist or sexist so I want to help everyone who may be disadvantaged due to being born into a poorer community. Focusing on someone's skin colour or gender is racist or sexist. We need to stop this.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #974 on: March 26, 2019, 03:16:40 AM »
There is almost a formulaic path for each ethnic group to become fully integrated and overcome stigma and discrimination in the long run. Booker Washington saw it and wanted to fix it for the long haul, but no, it's much easier for militants like "Willie" (Kendi's word, not mine) Du Bois and race hustlers like Davis and Coates to call upon grievance and resentment for a quick fix in the form of EQUITY, welfare and pity.

It. Does. Not. Work.
It. Has. Never. Worked. Anywhere. In. The. World.


Blacks are equally capable like everyone else to thrive in the absence of government interventions, just look at all the recent Black immigrants (incidentally, these areas were not tainted by bs "anti-racist" policies). It is the homegrown American Blacks that are lagging in almost EVERY regard, these anti-racist (more like extremely racist) policies championed by the identitarian left dont work. the longer you do it, the worse their condition will become.

This is true and it's the first time we've really touched on the solution problem. You don't fix issues like this via hand-outs. Hand-outs can make things much much worse. You develop a culture of game playing to get your hand-out. It disincentives people.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 03:49:15 AM by steveo »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #975 on: March 26, 2019, 03:23:41 AM »
You seem to have missed my point.  Look, I don't know why you seem to have such a problem accepting the idea that black people in America (and particularly the South) try to succeed and they get smacked down.  That's what I've observed my entire life.  Are you trying to say that my observations are not true? 

I'm not saying white people hate all minorities.  They seem to be pretty meh about asians and indians, moderately dislike the hispanics and downright hate black people.  It's hard to make it in America when your surrounding community does everything in it's power to make sure your schools suck, you don't get jobs, and you never ever move out of your neighborhood into nice white neighborhoods. 

That may be less true in large cities but it is very very very true in every small to midsized town I've even been in.

You keep redefining this and it makes things difficult to discuss. I actually agree that in small and mid-sized towns that haven't been urbanised comparatively to big cities more racism will exist. There will be other problems as well. A lot of these communities are poor and suffer from problems like alcoholism. These people including white people are often living on the edge of poverty.

You still notice changes happening here though because society at large has changed. Now I can travel to smaller communities and there is a Chinese take-away or pubs serving Thai food run by Thai people.

These communities need help but this is difficult as well. Change is though happening in these communities. It mightn't be happening quickly enough for your liking but it is changing. People can also get out of these communities. These communities are also not society at large and that is important to recognise.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #976 on: March 26, 2019, 03:28:48 AM »
However, in the interest of trying to find common ground let me say something very clear and very plainly so you can understand.  I agree with you that focusing on positive achievement and giving people skills (and opportunities) is the way forward.  We want black people to succeed and live life on their own terms.  On this point we are in absolute, 100% agreement.

The issue I see, however, is that I think that the people who have job openings (ie, nice white people) will continue to act as they always have.  When 2 people of equal ability and skill apply for a job, they will say:  "Well, that black person was OK, but this white person is more qualified."  It's a small decision made at the local level.  But it's repeated.  And repeated.  And repeated.  And you end up with even well qualified black people being shut out. 

See, racism doesn't have to be overt and rabid.  It can be a sort of soft racism that says "I don't hate black people, but that candidate just wasn't quite good enough."  I see that happening all the time too.

I think you are wrong in your idea in relation to 2 people of equal ability and skill going for a job and the white person gets the job. I also think it's not a significant factor in getting ahead. I also think you are talking solely about small rural communities.

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4058
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #977 on: March 26, 2019, 06:57:41 AM »
There is almost a formulaic path for each ethnic group to become fully integrated and overcome stigma and discrimination in the long run. Booker Washington saw it and wanted to fix it for the long haul, but no, it's much easier for militants like "Willie" (Kendi's word, not mine) Du Bois and race hustlers like Davis and Coates to call upon grievance and resentment for a quick fix in the form of EQUITY, welfare and pity.

It. Does. Not. Work.
It. Has. Never. Worked. Anywhere. In. The. World.


Blacks are equally capable like everyone else to thrive in the absence of government interventions, just look at all the recent Black immigrants (incidentally, these areas were not tainted by bs "anti-racist" policies). It is the homegrown American Blacks that are lagging in almost EVERY regard, these anti-racist (more like extremely racist) policies championed by the identitarian left dont work. the longer you do it, the worse their condition will become.

This is true and it's the first time we've really touched on the solution problem. You don't fix issues like this via hand-outs. Hand-outs can make things much much worse. You develop a culture of game playing to get your hand-out. It disincentives people.

Why do you keep repeating libs solution to everything is "handouts". First of all, (everyone should know this by now), lifetime welfare no longer exists in the US. We have: unemployment where you have to have a job history to qualify. We have social security for older folks. We have food stamps, which I think are a good thing because the majority are used by families with kids and we all want kids to have good nutrition while they are growing up. There is also disability, which again is disability-ranked. The rules for these programs are color blind. More whites use these programs than blacks do (though the proportion of blacks may be higher.)
What else are libs asking for: support public education and teachers. Make sure everyone has access to schooling. We have seen in the past states which control education do not provide equal quality of schooling to all of their citizens, or simply cut education. Unfortunately the federal government has to be there so all americans have access.
We want all school aged children to have good nutrition (backpack meals). We also don't want old people to be isolated suffer from lack of nutrition (meals on wheels). I don't see these as handouts. They are safety nets for specific vulnerable populations. Notice how none of them are listed as for "black kids" or black older folks, that is something in the minds of people like steveo and anisotropy. Unfortunately we live in a country that does not have especially strong family community strength. In other countries these things would be taken care of by family and the immediate community which is even better. In the US it is done by the government.

Second, libs do like to point out systemic problems in our society which increase lack of mobility or target particular populations. Blacks are more likely to get shot when stopped for a traffic stop. It's not just the behavior of the driver, it's the behavior of police officers. Many precints have been caught doing racial profiling, and that is against our law. The assymetric drug laws (very different sentencing for crack cocaine versus powder cocaine) and harsh sentences for "holding" also disproportinately impacts minorities.
Other areas where there are systemic problems are people in low socioeconomic areas have a more difficult time getting a mortgage to buy properties, or to insure that property. That perpetuates not being able to invest in their own neighborhood and community and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Identifying and correcting any of these problems should be applauded by people like steveo and Anisotropy, because it is again removing obstacles so to allow individuals to help themselves.   
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 07:15:04 AM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16347
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #978 on: March 26, 2019, 07:10:11 AM »
What is so amazing in the US is that today, it makes no difference what gender, race, or even country you are from.  Everyone has equal opportunity to get an education, work hard and succeed.  When I say everyone, I mean everyone. Yes people in poor communities have a harder time to succeed, but it is not because they are minorities but because of the culture in those communities.

Enjoyit, I think this is where the disconnect occurs. They are not necessarily happy with "equal opportunity", rather, they prefer "equal outcome", hence equity.

Namely, they want to give (more like enforce) everyone similar motivation and education necessary to succeed. This mentality either implies an absolute blank-slate model where everyone was born with equal talents and abilities or that people who are for whatever reason MORE motivated need to more scrutinized to the point of near-discrimination. An example would be how Asians, particularly East Asians are suing various schools that were also involved with recent scandals.

I am a believer in equality of opportunities, alas I grew up a commie and I know full well where equality of outcome leads.

Not at all.

I believe strongly in equal opportunity.

If you have a guy named Steve Smith and a guy named DeShawn Brown and they both submit exactly the same resume to the same set of companies, the white sounding guy gets 50% more call backs.  That is an example of the unequal opportunity that exists today as it relates to race that I think is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.
 https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/jalen-ross/black-name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/.

Equal outcome though?  No, not really.  Looking at outcomes statistically (along with other metrics) is one of several ways of roughly identifying if opportunity is the same, but I would never expect outcomes to be exactly equal across all the sex/race/sexual orientation metrics.  That's obviously unreasonable.  Of course there will be variation on a case by case basis.  In a properly functioning system, this variation should be linked to intelligence, quality of work, suitability for particular careers, etc.  Not based on having a white sounding name.

It isn't based on having a white sounding name at all. This is where you have to wake up and smell the roses. If all the doctors are called Chin or Chen do you change your statement to not having a Chinese sounding name.

Honestly the identity politics have to stop. Stop making all sorts of isms an issue and then maybe we can get somewhere. We aren't that far apart. You just want to re-engineer society based on a person's ethnic background which is racism. I think the rest of us want to make society better for all human beings. One philosophy is racist (it's an irrational tribal belief) and the other philosophy is humanist.

Based on this comment I can see that you didn't read the article.

To answer your question though, yes.  If people with names like Chin and Chen get 50% more callbacks when the apply to be doctors than people with names like Smith and Jones, then I'd take that as an indication of a problem that's most likely linked to racism/predjudices.

I don't want to re-engineer society based on a person's ethnic background.  That's why I didn't make that argument.  Please stop building straw men to argue against.

Cool Friend

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 358
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #979 on: March 26, 2019, 08:13:18 AM »
So Collins is a fraud, same accusation since the 1980s. Where is the damn proof? Just like Inquiry into Cliton's "emails" Trumps "collusions", where is the damn proof? Collins' detractors had 40 years to do it, so where is it?

You want to talk about why the reconstruction failed? you want to talk about why the Klan rose to take everything away? Because the dumb-ass white lefts pushed too hard out of guilt and vengeance. Same kind of bullshit that's going on today.

When are you going to realize the "anti-racist" policies only make things worse? When trump wins again in 2020?

Ahh yes, the ol' "trying to quell racism is the reason why racists are racist" chestnut.

Nick_Miller

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1270
  • Location: A sprawling estate with one of those cool circular driveways in the front!
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #980 on: March 26, 2019, 08:18:22 AM »
So Collins is a fraud, same accusation since the 1980s. Where is the damn proof? Just like Inquiry into Cliton's "emails" Trumps "collusions", where is the damn proof? Collins' detractors had 40 years to do it, so where is it?

You want to talk about why the reconstruction failed? you want to talk about why the Klan rose to take everything away? Because the dumb-ass white lefts pushed too hard out of guilt and vengeance. Same kind of bullshit that's going on today.

When are you going to realize the "anti-racist" policies only make things worse? When trump wins again in 2020?

Ahh yes, the ol' "trying to quell racism is the reason why racists are racist" chestnut.

And in expanded form (I learned something in elementary school!) it looks like, "it's okay to try to fix things, but don't try too hard, and don't go too fast or push too much, and don't make the racists feel bad about them having been, you know, racists, because if you do any of those things, then the racists will just double down on their racism and it will be all YOUR fault"

It's unfreakingbelievable.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16347
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #981 on: March 26, 2019, 08:21:51 AM »
It's really important to coddle racists . . . because their feelings matter much more than the feelings of the people they're oppressing.  After all, they're white!

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #982 on: March 26, 2019, 08:29:26 AM »
a few points:
1) I disagree with the concept of wealth inequality if it pertains to redistribution of wealth.  I am for paths that allow people to reach their own wealth as apposed to spreading around the wealth of others.

2) What does leveling the playing field mean and how do we do it?  Since we both agree that the problem we are seeing is a lack of education on how to succeed in poor communities.  It is a culture that ridicules hard work and striving for good grades as opposed to promoting it and that is where our resources should go.  There is no quick fix because it will take 1 or 2 generations for those process to permeate through to almost everyone in those communities.

I would also go to venture that poor communities are poor not because they are minorities but because the majority of the people living there don't understand how to succeed, don't teach their children to succeed, and even worse ridicule those who try to better themselves.  This is not a black thing, or a white thing.  It is a poor thing.  We as a society that wants to do good start throwing money at the problem because we believe that more money equals more resources and we "level the paying field" when in fact we may be handicapping those individuals into a sense of government subsistence if all we do is provide resources for the present instead of resources to build a better future.

1.  There aren't too many people who believe that a guy who makes 10 billion dollars a year should pay the same amount in taxes as a guy who makes 10,000 dollars a year.  The rich man enjoys greater benefit from public service . . . he has more to lose (typically lots of stuff, several properties, etc.), so police protection is more important to maintaining his wealth.  He travels more, so transportation infrastructure is of greater benefit to him.  He has a greater interest in keeping the poor happy because he is the one most likely to be put up against the wall and shot in the case of an uprising.

When the billionaire pays more in taxes than go to fund social programs (say a food program for kids who don't have enough to eat at home), this is wealth redistribution.  You are against that?



2.  That's a complicated question to answer.  There are a large number of things that can be done to level the playing field . . . from ensuring that quality of public education is extremely high, to providing food programs for kids, to providing help/support to poor parents, to providing health (including mental health) services to people who need them, etc.  This list goes on and on.  I'm not interested in 'throwing money at the problem', I'm interested in providing an easier path to success for a greater number of people.  Unfortunately, many of these solutions are a change from the current status quo, so will cost money.

If your concern is a culture that ridicules hard work and education (since those things didn't work for the parents/grandparents due to factors like racism) what do you propose to fix the problem you've identified?


What is so amazing in the US is that today, it makes no difference what gender, race, or even country you are from.  Everyone has equal opportunity to get an education, work hard and succeed.  When I say everyone, I mean everyone. Yes people in poor communities have a harder time to succeed, but it is not because they are minorities but because of the culture in those communities.

You've said this a couple times now, and it has been refuted a couple times now.

Everyone does not have equal opportunity if you have to work twice as hard to get the same number of call backs because your name sounds black.

Does the fact that opportunity is not equal mean that you can't succeed if you're a minority?  No, obviously not.  If you're black and work twice as hard, you get the same opportunity as a guy with a white sounding name . . . so success is certainly a possibility.  Working harder is generally the advice that I'd give anyone who doesn't have the opportunity that a straight white male has in the job market.  But I don't think that it's fair to have a system where that is the case.

I agree with you that treating people like victims isn't a great way to motivate them . . . but I also see that pretending well proven structural disadvantages that exist in our society don't exist is not a great way to motivate someone either.

1) I never said that. If you make more you pay more $ in taxes even if percent is the same.

Yes.  If you make more money you pay more in taxes, then the taxes fund programs - many of which help those who make less money.  This is how wealth re-distribution works in our society.  But you said you were opposed to redistribution of wealth.

Are you opposed to all forms of wealth redistribution, or are there just certain types of wealth redistribution that you don't like?



2) I have not had a chance to but will look at the link you provided about call backs and respond later.
Annecdotely as an employer or ex-employer I do not see that but I realize my experience is not reality for the whole US so it deserves more of my attention.

The link that I posted wasn't to one of the many studies demonstrating that having a black sounding name results in fewer job opportunities.  If you want the specific one that I was referencing, you can find it here: 
https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873


3) I stand by my statement that race does not matter as proven by every immigrants who learn to play the US game and become more successful than their white American counterparts.

The fact that some immigrants do as well or better than their white American counterparts does not prove that they are on an equal playing field.

That's like proving that drugs have no impact on athletic performance by comparing a stoned Michael Jordan playing basketball to a sober me.  Jordan will win because he's better.  That doesn't mean that we started on an equal playing field.
 

4) we seem to want the same outcome though have some slight disagreements on how to get there. I believe just giving people money or jobs they didnít earn adds to the problem. I believe teaching people how to break free from the cycle of poor mentality will have far lasting results. Those results will require 1-2 generations to be prevalent in poor communities. And again, this is not about race, this is about being poor.

That's another straw man.  I have not argued (and don't believe) that giving people money or jobs they didn't earn will solve the problem.  I'm in complete agreement that teaching people to break free from the cycle of poor mentality will have lasting results.

Where we seem to disagree is that you appear to believe that pretending racism is not a component of that cycle for some will lead to better results.  You have yet to have articulated exactly why this is so though.


Just as an example. Single young uneducated mom Is pregnant. What do we do? Free housing and food with free healthcare. Thank you very much, who is next. We just failed this mother and this child who will have a high likelihood of being attached to the government teet their entirety life.
Alternative, provide free housing food and healthcare for a limited time while also providing mandatory education so that the mom will learn the needed resources to get a job and learn to succeed and survive on her own.

Another straw man.  You're arguing against something that I don't support or want, while providing a solution that is more closely aligned to what I believe is reasonable.

@GuitarStv
Sorry it took so long to respond back.  I wanted to give your well written post the time it deserves.  The way I see it, we have two topics to discuss here and I will break them down as such.

1) Distribution of wealth has gray in it.  There is a stark difference between collecting taxes to support the infrastructure of the US vs taking dollars from one group and handing it over as cash to a second group.  My position is that supporting infrastructure and having programs that allow people to bring themselves more income is the normal and accepted use of tax dollars vs the direct action of cash from person A to person B.  The later in my eyes is theft while the former is necessary for a society to prosper.  There is gray in between which makes the subject difficult to nail down and why there is so much contention.

2) The second topic is regards to race, racism, and people moving up in the US financially.  Let me start off by saying that I believe your goals and my goals are exactly the same and we differ slightly on how to reach those goals.  I will agree to your point that racism exists and racism is one of the reasons why minorities are in the position they are today.  There is no argument there from me.

You also agree that the best way to help a group of people is to give them the tools to succeed on their own.  Anisotropy tries to point out that by giving people only resources such as food shelter and even some luxuries we harm them by taking away the motivation to learn and do better than what government already provides.  I think there is some truth to that. You chastise my straw man example of the mom getting aid.  But that is the ultimate example where we need to step in.  This is where the propagation of the poor mentality starts, at childhood and child rearing.  If we can intervene here then over the next 1-2 generations we will attain the success that you and I both want.  As you said, we both agree on this subject, but it is not what is happening today in the US.

The sole reason why minority immigrants fare better than their native counterparts is impossible to tease out, but I postulate that it is not their race that holds them back in the US but the local culture which has experienced horrific acts of racism throughout the centuries.  The big difference is that a child from an immigrant is in the US with the intention to improve their lives which separates them from the average poor person.  This leads me to believe that we need to help instill those same values to every poor person. Let me rephrase that, we need to help instill those values to those people that are willing to accept it.  At some point some people just don''t care and there is no point in intervening further.

Me personally, I am more for pointing out similarities between people and try to bring people together as opposed to pointing out racial differences which I think propagates racial affects further.  That is why I prefer to talk in the realm of poor communities as opposed to communities with a particular race living in them.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 08:33:26 AM by EnjoyIt »

shenlong55

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #983 on: March 26, 2019, 09:03:00 AM »
Just want to point out that you can feed a man and teach him to fish at the same time.  I feel like some people here might not get that...

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4058
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #984 on: March 26, 2019, 09:30:09 AM »
And in fact if people are not suffering from hunger or worry of eviction or power being cut off, frees up that mental space to make progress in other areas.

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #985 on: March 26, 2019, 09:34:55 AM »
At some point some people just don''t care and there is no point in intervening further.

I agree that not everyone can be helped. An interesting question then becomes, what do you do about those people? Leave them to their own devices? I think, pragmatically, that is a bad idea because it ultimately leads to costs society at large will bear (chiefly crime and the other various ills of poverty).

I also don't believe an affluent society should let people starve, die of exposure, or suffer treatable illness, no matter how many opportunities they've squandered. I realize that might not be a point on which we agree.

Identifying and correcting any of these problems should be applauded by people like steveo and Anisotropy, because it is again removing obstacles so to allow individuals to help themselves.   

Yes, I don't really understand the objection.

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #986 on: March 26, 2019, 09:52:25 AM »
At some point some people just don''t care and there is no point in intervening further.

I agree that not everyone can be helped. An interesting question then becomes, what do you do about those people? Leave them to their own devices? I think, pragmatically, that is a bad idea because it ultimately leads to costs society at large will bear (chiefly crime and the other various ills of poverty).

I also don't believe an affluent society should let people starve, die of exposure, or suffer treatable illness, no matter how many opportunities they've squandered. I realize that might not be a point on which we agree.


I think for those people the basic necessities of survival can be provided.  Inexpensive shelter, food, medicine.  Nothing more but, nothing less.


Just want to point out that you can feed a man and teach him to fish at the same time.  I feel like some people here might not get that...

Absolutely, but you can't do one without the other.  You must do both at the same time.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16347
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #987 on: March 26, 2019, 10:05:20 AM »
Sorry it took so long to respond back.  I wanted to give your well written post the time it deserves.  The way I see it, we have two topics to discuss here and I will break them down as such.

1) Distribution of wealth has gray in it.  There is a stark difference between collecting taxes to support the infrastructure of the US vs taking dollars from one group and handing it over as cash to a second group.  My position is that supporting infrastructure and having programs that allow people to bring themselves more income is the normal and accepted use of tax dollars vs the direct action of cash from person A to person B.  The later in my eyes is theft while the former is necessary for a society to prosper.  There is gray in between which makes the subject difficult to nail down and why there is so much contention.

Directly taking cash from one person to give it to another is unpalatable, agreed.  But it's important to remember that that's the most extreme form of wealth distribution.  Saying you're against wealth distribution is like saying you're against saving things because you saw an episode of hoarders.

Wealth distribution from the rich to the poor in the form of social programs is fundamental to a functioning society.  We can certainly argue about exactly where to draw the line, but typically most people (anarchist libertarians a notable exception) agree with it in some form or other.


2) The second topic is regards to race, racism, and people moving up in the US financially.  Let me start off by saying that I believe your goals and my goals are exactly the same and we differ slightly on how to reach those goals.  I will agree to your point that racism exists and racism is one of the reasons why minorities are in the position they are today.  There is no argument there from me.

You also agree that the best way to help a group of people is to give them the tools to succeed on their own.  Anisotropy tries to point out that by giving people only resources such as food shelter and even some luxuries we harm them by taking away the motivation to learn and do better than what government already provides.  I think there is some truth to that. You chastise my straw man example of the mom getting aid.  But that is the ultimate example where we need to step in.  This is where the propagation of the poor mentality starts, at childhood and child rearing.  If we can intervene here then over the next 1-2 generations we will attain the success that you and I both want.  As you said, we both agree on this subject, but it is not what is happening today in the US.

Sure.  There seems to be a combination of too much aid in the wrong places, and not enough aid in the right places in the US today that is causing this situation.

I don't entirely agree with Anisotropy's conclusions.  He argues that giving people food and shelter takes away their motivation to learn and do better . . . but I'd argue that giving a child food and shelter creates an environment more conductive to learning and more likely to result in success.  If a kid is sleeping under a bridge eating infrequently, it's going to be pretty hard to get him to care about math and reading.


The sole reason why minority immigrants fare better than their native counterparts is impossible to tease out, but I postulate that it is not their race that holds them back in the US but the local culture which has experienced horrific acts of racism throughout the centuries.  The big difference is that a child from an immigrant is in the US with the intention to improve their lives which separates them from the average poor person.  This leads me to believe that we need to help instill those same values to every poor person. Let me rephrase that, we need to help instill those values to those people that are willing to accept it.  At some point some people just don''t care and there is no point in intervening further.

I mostly agree with this.

I'm concerned with the idea that we should just give up on a segment of the population.  It can be frustrating and hard, but having a non-productive member of society is a failure of society.  We need to figure out how to engage these people and how to prevent this disengagement from occurring.  Otherwise I fear that they are likely to turn to behaviours that we don't want to encourage and create future generations without motivation.

Yes, there are people who work very hard not to be helped . . . but they're not the norm in my experience.  If a policy helps one person who doesn't deserve it and one person who does deserve it, I'd still consider that a win over not doing anything.  My concern is that there is often a focus on the benefit to the undeserving while ignoring the net societal good that an action may have.


Me personally, I am more for pointing out similarities between people and try to bring people together as opposed to pointing out racial differences which I think propagates racial affects further.  That is why I prefer to talk in the realm of poor communities as opposed to communities with a particular race living in them.

Sure, many of the problems we're discussing are common to all poor communities.  Many of the solutions will impact members of any race.
 I don't have a problem pointing out similarities between people . . . provided we're not ignoring differences.  Ignoring something is a dismissal of it's importance, and it is important to address the racism that still exists.

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #988 on: March 26, 2019, 10:21:21 AM »

Just want to point out that you can feed a man and teach him to fish at the same time.  I feel like some people here might not get that...

Absolutely, but you can't do one without the other.  You must do both at the same time.

I think everyone in this conversation is in complete agreement on that. In fact, I'm not sure there's a credible person anywhere who would argue we should address problems solely through "handouts".

If we agree on that as well, where is our disagreement?

Me personally, I am more for pointing out similarities between people and try to bring people together as opposed to pointing out racial differences which I think propagates racial affects further.  That is why I prefer to talk in the realm of poor communities as opposed to communities with a particular race living in them.

I also believe in emphasizing our joint humanity but I don't think that means we should gloss over actual differences though. [As I was typing, GuitarStv replied and made a similar point to what I was going to say so I won't bother.]





Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #989 on: March 26, 2019, 10:24:56 AM »
However, in the interest of trying to find common ground let me say something very clear and very plainly so you can understand.  I agree with you that focusing on positive achievement and giving people skills (and opportunities) is the way forward.  We want black people to succeed and live life on their own terms.  On this point we are in absolute, 100% agreement.

The issue I see, however, is that I think that the people who have job openings (ie, nice white people) will continue to act as they always have.  When 2 people of equal ability and skill apply for a job, they will say:  "Well, that black person was OK, but this white person is more qualified."  It's a small decision made at the local level.  But it's repeated.  And repeated.  And repeated.  And you end up with even well qualified black people being shut out. 

See, racism doesn't have to be overt and rabid.  It can be a sort of soft racism that says "I don't hate black people, but that candidate just wasn't quite good enough."  I see that happening all the time too.

I think you are wrong in your idea in relation to 2 people of equal ability and skill going for a job and the white person gets the job. I also think it's not a significant factor in getting ahead. I also think you are talking solely about small rural communities.

Well, I'd argue with you that my direct observation has to count for something.  But you'll dismiss that.  And I'd also use studies to show that preferential treatment to white candidates happens, even if it's at a subconscious level, but I've already seen you dismiss those types of studies.

So if you won't accept direct observation or controlled studies that this is a thing then there's really nothing I can say or do to convince you, is there?

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #990 on: March 26, 2019, 10:39:43 AM »
@Watchmaker and @GuitarStv

Regarding pointing out vs ignoring racial differences:
I wonder if there is a place where we point out those differences so much that it leads to segregation of sorts?

If the United States is a melting pot of cultures is it better to melt in with everyone else vs keeping a cultural divide?  Generally speaking, communities that don't assimilate tend to be poor.  Is it because they don't assimilate or is it because they are minorities?  Anisotropy likes to call it assimilating into white culture which I think is in accurate.  White culture or an even better term would be a successful United States culture is the melting pot of all cultures.  Therefore, while recognizing the differences people have, I think the goal is to look for similarities that tie us together and push those positive values.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe the melting pot theory is the wrong idea. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16347
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #991 on: March 26, 2019, 10:48:53 AM »
@Watchmaker and @GuitarStv

Regarding pointing out vs ignoring racial differences:
I wonder if there is a place where we point out those differences so much that it leads to segregation of sorts?

If the United States is a melting pot of cultures is it better to melt in with everyone else vs keeping a cultural divide?  Generally speaking, communities that don't assimilate tend to be poor.  Is it because they don't assimilate or is it because they are minorities?  Anisotropy likes to call it assimilating into white culture which I think is in accurate.  White culture or an even better term would be a successful United States culture is the melting pot of all cultures.  Therefore, while recognizing the differences people have, I think the goal is to look for similarities that tie us together and push those positive values.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe the melting pot theory is the wrong idea.

Black people have been in the US for longer than 200 years.  If the melting pot/assimilation thing was going to happen spontaneously, it would have happened by now wouldn't it?  Instead at seemingly every turn we have seen racism poke it's head into the matter to make assimilation impossible.

Now you are arguing that this time it's going to be different.  It's going to be different because we're going to ignore the racism that is still going on today.  That doesn't make any kind of sense to me.

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #992 on: March 26, 2019, 11:01:05 AM »
@Watchmaker and @GuitarStv

Regarding pointing out vs ignoring racial differences:
I wonder if there is a place where we point out those differences so much that it leads to segregation of sorts?

I could see how differences could lead to a group not assimilating, but I can't see how pointing out differences would lead to a group not assimilating. I agree that assimilating does seem to correlate with better financial outcomes. But what does assimilation even mean for people whose ancestors have been here for hundreds of years, and whose own culture is responsible for a big part of what you call "successful United States culture" (which you rightly point out is not the same as white culture).

African Americans are just as American as I am. What part of my culture should they be coerced into adopting so they will finally be treated the same as I am?

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #993 on: March 26, 2019, 11:05:58 AM »
@GuitarStv and @Watchmaker

The reason why we have not had assimilation in hundreds of years as you so put it is the slavery and oppression we had for so many years.

You two keep saying that I don't think these things exist and I keep saying I do.  Despite those things, how do we improve on the situation?

If we agree that assimilation leads to success, how do we help the assimilation process along today.  Not 200 years ago, but today?

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2512
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #994 on: March 26, 2019, 11:10:42 AM »
@Watchmaker and @GuitarStv

Regarding pointing out vs ignoring racial differences:
I wonder if there is a place where we point out those differences so much that it leads to segregation of sorts?

If the United States is a melting pot of cultures is it better to melt in with everyone else vs keeping a cultural divide?  Generally speaking, communities that don't assimilate tend to be poor.  Is it because they don't assimilate or is it because they are minorities?  Anisotropy likes to call it assimilating into white culture which I think is in accurate.  White culture or an even better term would be a successful United States culture is the melting pot of all cultures.  Therefore, while recognizing the differences people have, I think the goal is to look for similarities that tie us together and push those positive values.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe the melting pot theory is the wrong idea.

Black people have been in the US for longer than 200 years.  If the melting pot/assimilation thing was going to happen spontaneously, it would have happened by now wouldn't it?  Instead at seemingly every turn we have seen racism poke it's head into the matter to make assimilation impossible.

Now you are arguing that this time it's going to be different.  It's going to be different because we're going to ignore the racism that is still going on today.  That doesn't make any kind of sense to me.

Here's the thing (and I agree with you, BTW).  IME black people are not lazy.  They are hard working, smart people that want to get ahead and they want a better life for their children.  But every time they try to move up and be more successful, they get smacked down.  Especially in the South.  What we need to do is stop the white people from engaging in this smack down.  If you do that, then black people WILL succeed because they are in fact smart, hard working and wanting a better future for their kids (just like everyone else). 

So I will re-state:  The problem is not black culture.  It's white culture.  Specifically the white culture that actively works to prevent black success.  If we ever want anything to change, THIS is where we must focus our efforts.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16347
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #995 on: March 26, 2019, 11:16:38 AM »
@GuitarStv and @Watchmaker

The reason why we have not had assimilation in hundreds of years as you so put it is the slavery and oppression we had for so many years.

Slavery ended in 1865 though . . . more than a hundred fifty years ago.  It wasn't much longer after that that they were allowed to vote.  That should have been the end of oppression shouldn't it have?


You two keep saying that I don't think these things exist and I keep saying I do.  Despite those things, how do we improve on the situation?

If we agree that assimilation leads to success, how do we help the assimilation process along today.  Not 200 years ago, but today?

I don't really agree that assimilation leads to success though.  At least not in a positive way.  I think that assimilation leads to less racism because it makes black people less threatening to white people . . . which leads to some measure of success, but only because of the current power disparity that exists.

So yeah, black people could try to be whiter to succeed with white bosses . . . or we could try to address the underlying problem that all the bosses are white.

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #996 on: March 26, 2019, 11:21:36 AM »
@Watchmaker
You two keep saying that I don't think these things exist and I keep saying I do.  Despite those things, how do we improve on the situation?

Have I said that? If so, I apologize for mis-characterizing your position.

If we agree that assimilation leads to success, how do we help the assimilation process along today.  Not 200 years ago, but today?

Let me try again to articulate what I was trying to say in my last post.

African Americans can't assimilate into American culture because they are already part of it. This country is great, and they helped make it that way. They are not less American than I am, so there is no reason they should have to behave more like me. It's true that they are dis-proportionally poor, but that is not a product of their culture but of their circumstances (and also, I am arguing, external forces).

My answer reads a little differently than GuitarStv's, but I think that's because he's answering with regards to assimilating to white culture, and I am talking about assimilating to American culture.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13710
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #997 on: March 26, 2019, 12:07:41 PM »
@GuitarStv and @Watchmaker

The reason why we have not had assimilation in hundreds of years as you so put it is the slavery and oppression we had for so many years.

Slavery ended in 1865 though . . . more than a hundred fifty years ago.  It wasn't much longer after that that they were allowed to vote.  That should have been the end of oppression shouldn't it have?

You and I are looking at this from a Canadian perspective (which also has had its share of racism against various groups).  But from what I see from American discussions, gerrymandering, restrictive ID requirements and short hours for polling stations all restrict poor (which means a lot of minority) people from voting, in a way that we don't see here.

Plus voting is not the be all and end all.  Women in Canada got the vote long before all the other restrictions were lifted (I am thinking not being able to open a bank account without a father's/husband's signature, same for buying a house, losing your job upon marriage, etc .).  Social change is slow and often the road bumps are not easy to see unless they affect you (generic "you").

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4058
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #998 on: March 26, 2019, 07:56:48 PM »
Race is a construct. It is a construct that affects people's behavior and so is "real" but biologically there is more variation within a race, than across races. So steveo (fixed) is asking a rhetorical question at why do asians become doctors at a higher rate than white does that mean no black racism or anti-white racism or some variation, they are asking the wrong question. It doesn't have anything to do with the color of their skin or whiteness or nonwhiteness, OK? Other people answered the question more succiently than I can, that i.e. cultural differences.
 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/

https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-07.htm
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 08:37:36 PM by partgypsy »

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #999 on: March 26, 2019, 08:16:00 PM »
Race is a construct. It is a construct that affects people's behavior and so is "real" but biologically there is more variation within a race, than across races. So Anisotropy is asking a rhetorical question at why do asians become doctors at a higher rate than white does that mean no black racism or anti-white racism or some variation, they are asking the wrong question. It doesn't have anything to do with the color of their skin or whiteness or nonwhiteness, OK? Other people answered the question more succiently than I can, that i.e. cultural differences.
 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/

https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-07.htm

You are confusing me with someone else. I did not ask that. Please correct. Thanks.

Don't forget who's the CRT master here, race is indeed a construct. I can go on to problematize everything you just said and show how your assertion is thoroughly racist if you prefer.

In case you didn't know, pointing at cultural differences as the explanation to different outcomes is racist in CRT. I disagree with this, but hey, I didn't make those bs rules.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 08:17:49 PM by anisotropy »