Author Topic: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?  (Read 67489 times)

Davnasty

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #800 on: March 13, 2019, 12:49:05 PM »
Alright, off my soapbox, but I do want to say if the mods ban me, which is likely unless they face-punch themselves, and I disappear that will have been the reason. I am not afraid to tackle difficult subjects with respect and reason, and my goal is to get everyone to understand why someone would think differently than you. More than likely, it's not because they are evil.

@Versatile, I'm taking this conversation back to the thread where it started to avoid sidetracking the thread concerning Trump's term in office.

First, I'd like to ask that you lighten up on all the "I'll probably get banned soon" talk. If you don't break the rules, you will not get banned. No one is getting banned for having dissenting opinions. On what grounds are you basing this idea that anyone has been banned for having a dissenting opinion?

And before you answer, please keep a few things in mind:

The user who participated in this thread and was banned multiple times was initially banned before they participated in this thread. Therefore I don't know why they were banned, but it wasn't the comments you saw in this thread.

The user who was accused of trolling was accused for ad-hominem attacks that failed to discuss the substance of arguments and repeatedly arguing the same points without backing them up. If you think users on the other side of this debate were guilty of the same behavior, well you would be right. The difference is that it's not a consistent theme like it is with this user. They have a history of this behavior from other threads which you may find irrelevant but the mods do not. Despite being warned and failing to heed those warnings they still have not been banned.

And lastly, you took offense at what you perceived as a threat from a mod. It was not a threat. You'll see below that what he said was IF you do these things THEN you are gone - as in the royal "you". That was not a threat to you, it was an explanation of how the rules work.

So if you're into posting bigoted crap on the forums, you're gone.
If you're into trying to make large chunks of our membership feel like this is a white man's club with claims of Reverse Racism being the only Real Discrimination (TM), you're gone.

Is that straightforward enough for you?

Toque.

I would like to make a formal complaint about your behavior. Completely unprofessional and erratic. You are threatening me without cause.

Since you are a global moderator, who is your supervisor? If I complain to a moderator, does it go straight to you? That wouldn't accomplish much now would it?

You can PM me with the information or you can delete this post and ban me. If you choose the latter, keep in mind that people will have seen this before you take that road.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 01:02:05 PM by Dabnasty »

Versatile

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #801 on: March 13, 2019, 07:07:03 PM »
Alright, off my soapbox, but I do want to say if the mods ban me, which is likely unless they face-punch themselves, and I disappear that will have been the reason. I am not afraid to tackle difficult subjects with respect and reason, and my goal is to get everyone to understand why someone would think differently than you. More than likely, it's not because they are evil.

@Versatile, I'm taking this conversation back to the thread where it started to avoid sidetracking the thread concerning Trump's term in office.

First, I'd like to ask that you lighten up on all the "I'll probably get banned soon" talk. If you don't break the rules, you will not get banned. No one is getting banned for having dissenting opinions. On what grounds are you basing this idea that anyone has been banned for having a dissenting opinion?

And before you answer, please keep a few things in mind:

The user who participated in this thread and was banned multiple times was initially banned before they participated in this thread. Therefore I don't know why they were banned, but it wasn't the comments you saw in this thread.

The user who was accused of trolling was accused for ad-hominem attacks that failed to discuss the substance of arguments and repeatedly arguing the same points without backing them up. If you think users on the other side of this debate were guilty of the same behavior, well you would be right. The difference is that it's not a consistent theme like it is with this user. They have a history of this behavior from other threads which you may find irrelevant but the mods do not. Despite being warned and failing to heed those warnings they still have not been banned.

And lastly, you took offense at what you perceived as a threat from a mod. It was not a threat. You'll see below that what he said was IF you do these things THEN you are gone - as in the royal "you". That was not a threat to you, it was an explanation of how the rules work.

So if you're into posting bigoted crap on the forums, you're gone.
If you're into trying to make large chunks of our membership feel like this is a white man's club with claims of Reverse Racism being the only Real Discrimination (TM), you're gone.

Is that straightforward enough for you?

Toque.

I would like to make a formal complaint about your behavior. Completely unprofessional and erratic. You are threatening me without cause.

Since you are a global moderator, who is your supervisor? If I complain to a moderator, does it go straight to you? That wouldn't accomplish much now would it?

You can PM me with the information or you can delete this post and ban me. If you choose the latter, keep in mind that people will have seen this before you take that road.

You have great point that I don't know about other's histories, and I do plan on lightening up. I don't hold grudges which is to my benefit I guess.

I haven't broken any rules that I am aware of possibly outside of being rude to a couple of posters, which was precipitated by attacks on my character.

However, I do think it was a threat as Toque posted two warnings on my posts. I did nothing to deserve these reprimands as far as I can tell. If he wants to use the colloquial YOU than he needs to be more precise in his language as the messaging can easily be misconstrued. Maybe Arebelspy can have a chat with him. :)

But yeah, I am ready to move on. Thanks for a good reminder.


steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #802 on: March 13, 2019, 09:55:32 PM »
@Dabnasty - I think you've taken a load of poetic licence in your analysis there. I see this whole discussion as pretty one sided with the poor behaviour by a couple of posters (one being a mod) and I think you've continued it.

I said earlier it's probably best to not throw stones if you live in a glass house and I stand by that. The ad-hominen attacks were pretty much one sided. There was no trolling on my part at all but there was aggressive posturing and responses that had nothing at all to do with what I stated throughout this thread. If you want to bring up other threads I'd state exactly the same thing. Happy for you to critique my posts on this forum. I'd hoped we had actually progressed when it comes to constructive posting but I think you just regressed.

I think the best approach is to drop the issue, accept what you (and all of us to greater and lesser degrees) personally did wrong and stop throwing stones.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 10:11:44 PM by steveo »

partgypsy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #803 on: March 14, 2019, 12:46:08 PM »
@Dabnasty - I think you've taken a load of poetic licence in your analysis there. I see this whole discussion as pretty one sided with the poor behaviour by a couple of posters (one being a mod) and I think you've continued it.

I said earlier it's probably best to not throw stones if you live in a glass house and I stand by that. The ad-hominen attacks were pretty much one sided. There was no trolling on my part at all but there was aggressive posturing and responses that had nothing at all to do with what I stated throughout this thread. If you want to bring up other threads I'd state exactly the same thing. Happy for you to critique my posts on this forum. I'd hoped we had actually progressed when it comes to constructive posting but I think you just regressed.

I think the best approach is to drop the issue, accept what you (and all of us to greater and lesser degrees) personally did wrong and stop throwing stones.

lol

rob in cal

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #804 on: March 17, 2019, 10:06:08 AM »
   I haven't read through this entire thread, but whats going on in Italy is actually pretty interesting in terms of breaking out of the left right box. First off, it was the former "left-wing" government of Renzi whose interior ministry (in Europe this means police, customs, border enforcement etc) under Marco Minetti started significant moves to drastically reduce the flow of migrants coming into Italy from Africa via LIbya , with funding for new Libyan coast guard police, and other measures. Then after the recent elections we have the rightwing populist League party in coalition government with the politically nebulous five star party, with a grab bag of policies both cracking down on illegal immigration and making it easier to get retirement benefits, and also just passing (through the lower house so far) a far reaching direct democracy bill which will allow a big expansion of the scope of citizen initiated (through signatures) referenda on policy decisions.

Poundwise

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #805 on: March 18, 2019, 12:41:41 PM »
@ericrugiero  I only read your first post and then skipped reading what looks like a monster flame war. But with respect to disagreement about racism, I have had the following thoughts over the past couple of years as I live and grew up in fairly conservative communities, but recently have spent more time with liberals/progressives. 

I think we need clearer language to describe racism and sexism. The absence of such language leads to confusion and resentment, and unnecessarily divides us.
 
The conservative understanding of racism and sexism seems to mean: deliberate bias with malice intended.  It excludes unconscious bias and does not take into account the power relationship between groups.  For instance, a woman who thinks men are stupid would be sexist. A black person who forwards mocking memes about white people would be a racist.  This is the only definition I used to know and I think it is the older definition.

The progressive understanding of racism and sexism seems to mean:
Bias from the dominant group, whether conscious or unconscious. It includes passive bias.

For example, if you are not as outraged by brutal persecution of brown people as you would be if your own family was in danger of this treatment,  then you are not seeing people of color as part of your humanity, and therefore are being racist. If you support a candidate who promotes discrimination against women in the workplace, not because of his sexism, but because you like his foreign policy, you're also being sexist even if you don't personally like the discrimination.  It means that you're okay enough with discrimination against a group to allow or even help it to continue.
 This definition excludes bias against members of the dominant group, or even inter-minority bias. It's a functional definition.

We are currently divided by the failure of conservatives to acknowledge the economic/life endangering damage caused by unconscious racism/sexism, and the failure of progressives to acknowledge the emotional hurt caused by bias against members of dominant groups.  Because of these failures,
- Conservatives are upset to be called racist or sexist when they don't have a conscious intent to be.  They also feel that it's unfair to have one-sided definition... why is it fair game to make fun of or resent white people or men, or indeed white men?  Liberals are making a mistake by failing to acknowledge the natural pain and anger this causes.

- Progressives are upset that conservatives are not recognizing the role that passive and institutional racism have played in causing unjust imprisonment, premature death, and impoverishment of generations of people of color. Conservatives are making a mistake (and causing real harm) by failing to acknowledge that how an unconscious bias can still lead to job discrimination, an unjustified arrest, a shooting, or an unprosecuted rape is not equivalent in magnitude to the harm caused by bias against the majority by minorities, women, or lgbtq people.

Perhaps if we were to use different terms for these two types of racism/sexism (something like the distinction between murder and manslaughter), that would discourage the casual street bias which is hurtful whichever way it points, and remove distractions from the very serious task of abolishing institutional racism/sexism from our society.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 12:52:09 PM by Poundwise »

OurTown

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #806 on: March 18, 2019, 01:03:00 PM »
@Poundwise Good points, there is also a difference in moral culpability between an intentional state of mind (racism) and a passive state of mind (prejudice).  Also, prejudices can be overcome by awareness and life experiences, as in when a kid from a rural area goes off to college and encounters people of diverse backgrounds for the first time. 

Institutional racism feels a little harder to pin down.  I think it is an amalgamation of historical and cultural factors that result in a negative impact on the affected disadvantaged group.  It's not necessarily that an institutional entity sets out to discriminate in an intentional way.  What we describe as "institutional racism" can certainly be mitigated by better policies going forward, and that is where our efforts should be focused, rather than on labels.

Poundwise

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #807 on: March 18, 2019, 02:25:07 PM »
@OurTown I agree, intent is important and lumping in people who intend to hurt with those who don't is counterproductive in my mind. 

My understanding of racism is still evolving. At first I didn't get the second (progressive) definition of racism, but maybe its intent  is to point out that the type of racism that thinks it's okay to elect active racists in order to achieve other ends, as long as you are polite about it... or causes you to believe the witness who is more like yourself...  is actually as damaging as harassing people in the street.

As for institutional racism, our country was founded with the help of an original sin, slavery.  Slavery was theft that left black people poor; slavery was abuse that broke black families and culture; and our institutions discriminate against the poor and the broken. Our institutions, at best, give equality (in the sense of that cartoon with the kids standing on boxes to see a ballgame), where what is needed is justice, and what is required by our Constitution is justice.

shenlong55

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #808 on: March 18, 2019, 02:31:51 PM »
@ericrugiero  I only read your first post and then skipped reading what looks like a monster flame war. But with respect to disagreement about racism, I have had the following thoughts over the past couple of years as I live and grew up in fairly conservative communities, but recently have spent more time with liberals/progressives. 

I think we need clearer language to describe racism and sexism. The absence of such language leads to confusion and resentment, and unnecessarily divides us.
 
The conservative understanding of racism and sexism seems to mean: deliberate bias with malice intended.  It excludes unconscious bias and does not take into account the power relationship between groups.  For instance, a woman who thinks men are stupid would be sexist. A black person who forwards mocking memes about white people would be a racist.  This is the only definition I used to know and I think it is the older definition.

The progressive understanding of racism and sexism seems to mean:
Bias from the dominant group, whether conscious or unconscious. It includes passive bias.

For example, if you are not as outraged by brutal persecution of brown people as you would be if your own family was in danger of this treatment,  then you are not seeing people of color as part of your humanity, and therefore are being racist. If you support a candidate who promotes discrimination against women in the workplace, not because of his sexism, but because you like his foreign policy, you're also being sexist even if you don't personally like the discrimination.  It means that you're okay enough with discrimination against a group to allow or even help it to continue.
 This definition excludes bias against members of the dominant group, or even inter-minority bias. It's a functional definition.

We are currently divided by the failure of conservatives to acknowledge the economic/life endangering damage caused by unconscious racism/sexism, and the failure of progressives to acknowledge the emotional hurt caused by bias against members of dominant groups.  Because of these failures,
- Conservatives are upset to be called racist or sexist when they don't have a conscious intent to be.  They also feel that it's unfair to have one-sided definition... why is it fair game to make fun of or resent white people or men, or indeed white men?  Liberals are making a mistake by failing to acknowledge the natural pain and anger this causes.

- Progressives are upset that conservatives are not recognizing the role that passive and institutional racism have played in causing unjust imprisonment, premature death, and impoverishment of generations of people of color. Conservatives are making a mistake (and causing real harm) by failing to acknowledge that how an unconscious bias can still lead to job discrimination, an unjustified arrest, a shooting, or an unprosecuted rape is not equivalent in magnitude to the harm caused by bias against the majority by minorities, women, or lgbtq people.

Perhaps if we were to use different terms for these two types of racism/sexism (something like the distinction between murder and manslaughter), that would discourage the casual street bias which is hurtful whichever way it points, and remove distractions from the very serious task of abolishing institutional racism/sexism from our society.

My preferred understanding:

Bias from the dominant group, whether conscious or unconscious. It includes passive bias.

GuitarStv

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #809 on: March 18, 2019, 02:49:00 PM »
@OurTown I agree, intent is important and lumping in people who intend to hurt with those who don't is counterproductive in my mind.

If you're looking at it from the point of view of a rabid, aggressive racist . . . it doesn't really matter what the intent is.  Anything that hurts the minority that isn't liked is good.  If you're looking at it from the point of view of the person being hurt by the racism . . . it doesn't really matter if intent was there or not, they just want it to stop.

Only if you're looking at it from the point of view of someone who is causally racist does intent matter.  And it really seems to matter mostly only because it provides plausible deniability.

Poundwise

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #810 on: March 18, 2019, 03:09:30 PM »
@OurTown I agree, intent is important and lumping in people who intend to hurt with those who don't is counterproductive in my mind.

If you're looking at it from the point of view of a rabid, aggressive racist . . . it doesn't really matter what the intent is.  Anything that hurts the minority that isn't liked is good.  If you're looking at it from the point of view of the person being hurt by the racism . . . it doesn't really matter if intent was there or not, they just want it to stop.

Only if you're looking at it from the point of view of someone who is causally racist does intent matter.  And it really seems to matter mostly only because it provides plausible deniability.

The goal is to get people who have prejudices to stop having them... to WANT to stop having them.  And there are a lot of people who are casually racist because they don't know better. They could go either way.  We want them to get better. We need their help.

I know some people of color who are angry and frustrated and don't feel that it is their responsibility to teach people to stop being racist, and it isn't.

But, I have seen people change from being disgusted with gay people to embracing them in their family; I have seen people who didn't think a girl could do the job, becoming proud of the girl who did. There were people who thought that separating colored from whites at the lunch counter was the way to do things, and they are now the fringe instead of the majority. Improvement is possible.

We can do this. But there must be reaching out, and understanding.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 03:11:44 PM by Poundwise »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #811 on: March 18, 2019, 03:36:42 PM »
@OurTown I agree, intent is important and lumping in people who intend to hurt with those who don't is counterproductive in my mind. 

My understanding of racism is still evolving. At first I didn't get the second (progressive) definition of racism, but maybe its intent  is to point out that the type of racism that thinks it's okay to elect active racists in order to achieve other ends, as long as you are polite about it... or causes you to believe the witness who is more like yourself...  is actually as damaging as harassing people in the street.

As for institutional racism, our country was founded with the help of an original sin, slavery.  Slavery was theft that left black people poor; slavery was abuse that broke black families and culture; and our institutions discriminate against the poor and the broken. Our institutions, at best, give equality (in the sense of that cartoon with the kids standing on boxes to see a ballgame), where what is needed is justice, and what is required by our Constitution is justice.

You make some really good points.

I think that there are additional factors at play here as well such as:-

1. There has been a lot of changes within society. These changes are taking effect now. The impacts are being seen now and they will be continue to be seen. This means that there is a massive grey area in relation to what we do today. We might have done enough. It might just take time.
2. Cultural factors matter. I've raised this on multiple occasions. I think that this is something that progressives use to define racism but it's ludicrous. Chinese tend to be good businessmen, Fillipino's like to sing and dance and Islanders tend to be good rugby players. Islanders often also like to sing. You don't want to stop these cultural factors because they are part of people's identity.

The world is complex. These simplistic ideas that everything should be equal is basically delusional. People are different and that is good.

I'm Australian and when you state that justice is required because of slavery you are going into a very difficult place to go. Australia was founded on killing off a whole bunch of aborigines and heaps of bad stuff. In Australia we have positive discrimination towards aborigines and it's institutionalised. It's real discrimination in that aborigines are advantaged in so many ways. We have also apologised for the policies where aboriginal kids were taken away from their families. The problem is that aboriginal people are still pissed off with various aspects of our society. Lately it's our flag, the date we celebrate Australia day and our Anthem. I have no problems with changing these components of our society but at one point do we state enough is enough. Do these changes really help ? I don't have an answer. Some aboriginal people believe hand-outs just lead some poorer communities to remain involved in a cultural environment of drinking and fighting and it's terrible.

I actually think that the idea of racism should be clearly defined for people that are actually racist. Right wing extremists who actually judge people on their racial background. When it comes to handling complex social issues we should do something but we should accept that it's not simple.

I also think people should read the book Sapiens because I think people get too focused on the bad today and can't put it in perspective. For instance in Australia if you think that Aboriginal people lived in harmony with each other and the world you are delusional. They committed genocide. Human beings today are on the whole so much more enlightened than what they were in the past.

I think the hatred has to stop but I don't know how to do that. I think the hatred creates an environment where we do create extremists who do things like what has just happened in New Zealand. This isn't just right wing white people. Terrorism comes from Muslim communities as well.

Hatred and arrogance and the over the top theatrics that some people engage in (calling people racist or misogynist when the label is ludicrous) aren't a good way to engage in complex social issues. I think it puts people off and just makes the whole situation which is already extremely difficult basically impossible to discuss and if you can't discuss it I fail to see how things can improve.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 03:44:01 PM by steveo »

Poundwise

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #812 on: March 18, 2019, 04:22:19 PM »
2. Cultural factors matter. I've raised this on multiple occasions. I think that this is something that progressives use to define racism but it's ludicrous. Chinese tend to be good businessmen, Fillipino's like to sing and dance and Islanders tend to be good rugby players. Islanders often also like to sing. You don't want to stop these cultural factors because they are part of people's identity.


Must run now and not sure when I can pick up the discussion again next, but your comment here gave me an interesting thought (though I don't know quite what you meant.) I have been having a little trouble understanding why the inter-group racism and "upward" racism have been excluded from the use of racism that my progressive friends use.  I think it proceeds from the functional/practical concept that they have. All racism is bad, but the truly harmful racism is that which feeds into institutional injustice and oppression.  They are not so interested in the interethnic squabbling and mockery that happens when different groups meet.

It sounds to me like you would like to keep the definition of racism as an intentional thing.

I don't know much about the Aborigines in Australia, but if family separation was only a generation ago, they're probably not made whole yet. Look up "attachment disorder" to see what this can do to children.  It can happen in all sorts of conditions even outside racism; I was reading a horrific account of children of unwed mothers who were taken away and placed in an Irish orphanage the other day... it screws up multiple generations.

More random thoughts, "Black Lives Matter" may also be misunderstood by conservatives. It means "Black Lives Matter Also", not "Black Lives Matter More".

I do wish ISIS and the neonazis would go off somewhere and fight each other, and stopping pulling the rest of us into it. But is it really each other that they hate? Or is it the moderates in their own groups that they detest more?


steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #813 on: March 18, 2019, 06:57:44 PM »
2. Cultural factors matter. I've raised this on multiple occasions. I think that this is something that progressives use to define racism but it's ludicrous. Chinese tend to be good businessmen, Fillipino's like to sing and dance and Islanders tend to be good rugby players. Islanders often also like to sing. You don't want to stop these cultural factors because they are part of people's identity.


Must run now and not sure when I can pick up the discussion again next, but your comment here gave me an interesting thought (though I don't know quite what you meant.) I have been having a little trouble understanding why the inter-group racism and "upward" racism have been excluded from the use of racism that my progressive friends use.  I think it proceeds from the functional/practical concept that they have. All racism is bad, but the truly harmful racism is that which feeds into institutional injustice and oppression.  They are not so interested in the interethnic squabbling and mockery that happens when different groups meet.

It sounds to me like you would like to keep the definition of racism as an intentional thing.

I don't know much about the Aborigines in Australia, but if family separation was only a generation ago, they're probably not made whole yet. Look up "attachment disorder" to see what this can do to children.  It can happen in all sorts of conditions even outside racism; I was reading a horrific account of children of unwed mothers who were taken away and placed in an Irish orphanage the other day... it screws up multiple generations.

More random thoughts, "Black Lives Matter" may also be misunderstood by conservatives. It means "Black Lives Matter Also", not "Black Lives Matter More".

I do wish ISIS and the neonazis would go off somewhere and fight each other, and stopping pulling the rest of us into it. But is it really each other that they hate? Or is it the moderates in their own groups that they detest more?

Cultural factors are important. I have extended family who are Arab Lebanese Muslims. They have a tonne of kids and often live on welfare. The culture is that women do bloody everything. Not all Arab Muslims are like this. I have friends at my gym who went to Catholic schools I think because their parents don't want them being engaged into that culture. They are still Arab Lebanese Muslims but the culture within that ethnic group is that having 10 kids and living off welfare is common. If you just bring statistics into the discussion and call this Institutional racism you are being delusional. That ethnic community just has different value systems compared to what we consider the right value systems.

Aboriginal Australians have high rates of domestic violence and alcohol abuse. The idea of the stolen generation was to try and make these people integrated into European society which is considered better. It's actually very similar to using statistical inferences to state there is a problem and this is how to fix it. It is now widely considered disgusting but if kids are being bought up in a culture of violence and abuse maybe something should happen.

My point is using statistics to state that there is something wrong and declaring it racism is just way way way too simplistic. It's even hard to state that there is something wrong. Do you or I have the right to state that a culture is bad ? I think having 10 kids and women having to stay at home, cook and clean and sometimes go to work whilst the father figure goes and drinks coffee and prays and hangs out with his mates is bad but it's not even that simple. My brother-in-law earns good money and provides for his family of 10 odd kids whilst the wife does all the work but there are a lot of people in that extended family eking out an existence from our perspective. They can't borrow money so they can't buy houses. Religion is the cornerstone of their life. Family is so important and having lots of kids is considered normal. Racism isn't the cause of their struggles from a statistical perspective. I'm not even sure we can state they are struggling because these are conscious decisions as much as any of us make conscious decisions.

If you point out cultural differences it's often considered racist or sexist or whatever but it's not and we have to be mature enough to see that. It also throws all these statistics out of the water especially when you get dumb statistics that are just used to portray a picture.

I get the impression of rich entitled white people stating well it's racist that these people are poor and we have to fix the problem when the problem is part of their cultural identity. You cannot go and change culture that simply. It's who these people are.

Some of these situations are complex and tough and solutions aren't easy.

As for ISIS and neo-nazis I think this is so tough because as you state I think they hate moderates as much as they hate the other side. I honestly think that extremists lead to these situations but you can't outlaw extremism. Can you legislate for women to never wear a hijab ? The last time I saw my niece she was completely covered. Should we outlaw that. She is a good person but I think that a small minority of people who are this extreme turn to terrorism. The extremism leads to the really bad stuff.

You should hear my extended family talk about 9/11 or other Islamic terrorism acts that occur. They don't think it was Muslims they think it was a government conspiracy in order to curtail people's individual rights and Muslims are the easiest people to target first.

GuitarStv

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #814 on: March 19, 2019, 08:40:45 AM »
2. Cultural factors matter. I've raised this on multiple occasions. I think that this is something that progressives use to define racism but it's ludicrous. Chinese tend to be good businessmen, Fillipino's like to sing and dance and Islanders tend to be good rugby players. Islanders often also like to sing. You don't want to stop these cultural factors because they are part of people's identity.


Must run now and not sure when I can pick up the discussion again next, but your comment here gave me an interesting thought (though I don't know quite what you meant.) I have been having a little trouble understanding why the inter-group racism and "upward" racism have been excluded from the use of racism that my progressive friends use.  I think it proceeds from the functional/practical concept that they have. All racism is bad, but the truly harmful racism is that which feeds into institutional injustice and oppression.  They are not so interested in the interethnic squabbling and mockery that happens when different groups meet.

It sounds to me like you would like to keep the definition of racism as an intentional thing.

I don't know much about the Aborigines in Australia, but if family separation was only a generation ago, they're probably not made whole yet. Look up "attachment disorder" to see what this can do to children.  It can happen in all sorts of conditions even outside racism; I was reading a horrific account of children of unwed mothers who were taken away and placed in an Irish orphanage the other day... it screws up multiple generations.

More random thoughts, "Black Lives Matter" may also be misunderstood by conservatives. It means "Black Lives Matter Also", not "Black Lives Matter More".

I do wish ISIS and the neonazis would go off somewhere and fight each other, and stopping pulling the rest of us into it. But is it really each other that they hate? Or is it the moderates in their own groups that they detest more?

Cultural factors are important. I have extended family who are Arab Lebanese Muslims. They have a tonne of kids and often live on welfare. The culture is that women do bloody everything. Not all Arab Muslims are like this. I have friends at my gym who went to Catholic schools I think because their parents don't want them being engaged into that culture. They are still Arab Lebanese Muslims but the culture within that ethnic group is that having 10 kids and living off welfare is common. If you just bring statistics into the discussion and call this Institutional racism you are being delusional. That ethnic community just has different value systems compared to what we consider the right value systems.

Aboriginal Australians have high rates of domestic violence and alcohol abuse. The idea of the stolen generation was to try and make these people integrated into European society which is considered better. It's actually very similar to using statistical inferences to state there is a problem and this is how to fix it. It is now widely considered disgusting but if kids are being bought up in a culture of violence and abuse maybe something should happen.

My point is using statistics to state that there is something wrong and declaring it racism is just way way way too simplistic. It's even hard to state that there is something wrong. Do you or I have the right to state that a culture is bad ? I think having 10 kids and women having to stay at home, cook and clean and sometimes go to work whilst the father figure goes and drinks coffee and prays and hangs out with his mates is bad but it's not even that simple. My brother-in-law earns good money and provides for his family of 10 odd kids whilst the wife does all the work but there are a lot of people in that extended family eking out an existence from our perspective. They can't borrow money so they can't buy houses. Religion is the cornerstone of their life. Family is so important and having lots of kids is considered normal. Racism isn't the cause of their struggles from a statistical perspective. I'm not even sure we can state they are struggling because these are conscious decisions as much as any of us make conscious decisions.

If you point out cultural differences it's often considered racist or sexist or whatever but it's not and we have to be mature enough to see that. It also throws all these statistics out of the water especially when you get dumb statistics that are just used to portray a picture.

I get the impression of rich entitled white people stating well it's racist that these people are poor and we have to fix the problem when the problem is part of their cultural identity. You cannot go and change culture that simply. It's who these people are.

Some of these situations are complex and tough and solutions aren't easy.

As for ISIS and neo-nazis I think this is so tough because as you state I think they hate moderates as much as they hate the other side. I honestly think that extremists lead to these situations but you can't outlaw extremism. Can you legislate for women to never wear a hijab ? The last time I saw my niece she was completely covered. Should we outlaw that. She is a good person but I think that a small minority of people who are this extreme turn to terrorism. The extremism leads to the really bad stuff.

You should hear my extended family talk about 9/11 or other Islamic terrorism acts that occur. They don't think it was Muslims they think it was a government conspiracy in order to curtail people's individual rights and Muslims are the easiest people to target first.

Cultural factors are important.  It's too often a slippery slope between talking about cultural factors and demonizing a particular religion though.  Attributing acts of terrorism to a religion for example, typically indicates a poor understanding of the history and motivations behind the acts.

9/11 was a direct result of decisions that the US made in training and arming Osama in Afghanistan.  Saying that it was an 'Islamic terrorism act' kinda glosses over that part - and ignores the fact that arming and training a militant group to be terrorists (regardless of the religion they practice) is a really bad idea.  The rise of ISIS again is a direct result of actions the US made while destabilizing Iraq (including many acts of terrorism - kidnappings, beatings, rapes, torture, murder - that occurred to innocent civilians in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay.)  When you behave like a terrorist, you breed terrorists.  When you arbitrarily create instability and misery in an area, you increase the chances that this type of group will rise up.  Again, this is true even when religion isn't a major factor.

That said, are extreme Muslims violent?  Yep.  Are extreme Christians violent?  Yep.  Can extreme doomsday preppers be violent?  Yep.  If you look at just about any grouping of people and then find the most extreme members of that group, you will likely find a serious potential for violence.  It's just the nature of extremism, not really caused by religion.

The other problem with focusing on 'cultural factors' as a guise for 'religions I don't really like' is that you make moderate and benign followers of that religion targets . . . as happened earlier this week to the 50 Muslims killed by a Christian terrorist in New Zealand.  This only gives extremism more fertile ground to grow in.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #815 on: March 19, 2019, 10:00:30 AM »
9/11 was a direct result of decisions that the US made in training and arming Osama in Afghanistan.  Saying that it was an 'Islamic terrorism act' kinda glosses over that part - and ignores the fact that arming and training a militant group to be terrorists (regardless of the religion they practice) is a really bad idea.

I fully acknowledge the U.S. has been complicit in some shady areas, but I don't follow your logic here that the United States armed and trained the Mujahideen to be terrorists. There was, for a lack of a better term, a civil war occurring in Afghanistan at the time (combined with a Soviet invasion). By similar logic, was France arming terrorists when it was supporting the U.S. during the Revolutionary War?

I'd say that calling it an Islamic terrorism act glosses over nothing, except perhaps that 1) modern Islam doesn't have the same secular separation of religion and government as modern-day western society does, and 2) the continuation of the jacked up guns-for-oil program going on in the Middle East with their despot rulers can do nothing but foster resentment.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #816 on: March 19, 2019, 10:53:23 AM »
9/11 was a direct result of decisions that the US made in training and arming Osama in Afghanistan.  Saying that it was an 'Islamic terrorism act' kinda glosses over that part - and ignores the fact that arming and training a militant group to be terrorists (regardless of the religion they practice) is a really bad idea.

I fully acknowledge the U.S. has been complicit in some shady areas, but I don't follow your logic here that the United States armed and trained the Mujahideen to be terrorists. There was, for a lack of a better term, a civil war occurring in Afghanistan at the time (combined with a Soviet invasion). By similar logic, was France arming terrorists when it was supporting the U.S. during the Revolutionary War?

Training a group to use guerrilla tactics is training them to be terrorists.  The difference is really only in the target (military vs civilian).  You're depending on the character of the people being trained to not turn around and perform terrorist acts.  But to consider guerilla warfare you have to be pretty desperate . . . and desperate people tend to be willing to do an awful lot.

Yes,  there were certainly acts of terror perpetrated against civilian British Loyalists in the American revolution.  So if French weapons were used to perpetrate these acts they did arm terrorists.


I'd say that calling it an Islamic terrorism act glosses over nothing, except perhaps that 1) modern Islam doesn't have the same secular separation of religion and government as modern-day western society does.

I think that it draws a false distinction between Islam and every other religion in the world.  As I just mentioned, a Christian terrorist killed 50 Muslims in New Zealand.  I guess that hate runs so deep in Christianity that secular separation of religion and government wasn't able to stop the atrocity.

By your logic that should say an awful lot about the violence of Christianity.  By my logic, it's just another example of how using language and creating and environment that paints people as 'other' tends to breed hatred and extremism.  Whatever floats your boat I guess.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #817 on: March 19, 2019, 12:07:22 PM »
Training a group to use guerrilla tactics is training them to be terrorists. The difference is really only in the target (military vs civilian).  You're depending on the character of the people being trained to not turn around and perform terrorist acts.  But to consider guerilla warfare you have to be pretty desperate . . . and desperate people tend to be willing to do an awful lot.

Actually, I think training people to fly is training them to be terrorists. The difference is only the final destination (landing strip vs. building).

Quote
Yes,  there were certainly acts of terror perpetrated against civilian British Loyalists in the American revolution.  So if French weapons were used to perpetrate these acts they did arm terrorists.

You're mistaking warfare for terrorism. Otherwise, what would you have to say about the acts of terror from the British loyalists or soldiers against the patriots?

Quote
I think that it draws a false distinction between Islam and every other religion in the world.  As I just mentioned, a Christian terrorist killed 50 Muslims in New Zealand.  I guess that hate runs so deep in Christianity that secular separation of religion and government wasn't able to stop the atrocity.

Though I did not nor do I intend to read the manifesto of the terrorist in New Zealand, from what I have read he was not religious nor did he have a religious agenda; therefore he was not a Christian terrorist. He was a White Supremacist terrorist. No less vile, in my opinion.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #818 on: March 19, 2019, 05:26:21 PM »
...

My point is using statistics to state that there is something wrong and declaring it racism is just way way way too simplistic. It's even hard to state that there is something wrong. Do you or I have the right to state that a culture is bad ? I think having 10 kids and women having to stay at home, cook and clean and sometimes go to work whilst the father figure goes and drinks coffee and prays and hangs out with his mates is bad but it's not even that simple.
...

If you point out cultural differences it's often considered racist or sexist or whatever but it's not and we have to be mature enough to see that. It also throws all these statistics out of the water especially when you get dumb statistics that are just used to portray a picture.

I get the impression of rich entitled white people stating well it's racist that these people are poor and we have to fix the problem when the problem is part of their cultural identity. You cannot go and change culture that simply. It's who these people are.

Some of these situations are complex and tough and solutions aren't easy.

As for ISIS and neo-nazis I think this is so tough because as you state I think they hate moderates as much as they hate the other side. I honestly think that extremists lead to these situations but you can't outlaw extremism. Can you legislate for women to never wear a hijab ? The last time I saw my niece she was completely covered. Should we outlaw that. She is a good person but I think that a small minority of people who are this extreme turn to terrorism. The extremism leads to the really bad stuff.

You should hear my extended family talk about 9/11 or other Islamic terrorism acts that occur. They don't think it was Muslims they think it was a government conspiracy in order to curtail people's individual rights and Muslims are the easiest people to target first.

@steveo, what you're seeing in Australia may be different from what we're seeing in the U.S. with respect to black Americans.

Black Americans are disproportionately poor in America, there is no argument about that.  Even though we all know famous rich black Americans (Oprah) they are still underrepresented among the rich and super-rich, given the time their families have spent in this country. You seem to be saying that this may be a consequence of their culture rather than racism.

Maybe so, but in the US, we find that the descendants of enslaved Africans do worse on many measures (economic, education, lifespan) than African immigrants who were never enslaved, more so than the difference between native white Americans and white immigrants. Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

Also, a reading of the lives of prominent Black Americans over the last century (especially before civil rights) shows time and time again, how brilliant and hardworking people struggled their way up and were often broken on the wheel of racism. 
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/obituaries/overlooked.html

A case that sounds more similar to what you're describing in Australia, is the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities nearby where I live.  They have a lot of poverty because they have huge families and don't produce much work that the outside world values; thus they are often dependent on welfare. They also tend to vote in blocs to support their own agendas without consideration of the greater community that surrounds them, and hold themselves apart, so they aren't super popular here. Meanwhile, their women and children don't have the freedom of lifestyle that we do, and there have been some scandals about abuse that was hushed up within the community.

I don't think even the tenderest of hearts could say that we're responsible for their poverty. I feel bad for those who want to leave the community but can't do so without being shunned, but hopefully no one would call it anti-Semitism (I feel the same way about Amish or other fundamentalist/traditionalist groups whatever their religion.)

However, I try hard not to make assumptions based on their dress.  They  are often very standoffish, like the Orthodox woman at the eye doctor with several adorable kids, who refused to be drawn out to small talk.  On the other hand, at the playground, there was an Orthodox man with several adorable kids, and we had a great chat.  It's so easy to make a judgement based on how a person dresses or looks, but you really can't know who somebody is by looks or mannerism.  It's just no substitute.



Tyson

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #819 on: March 19, 2019, 07:28:41 PM »
In America, these are the facts:

Two hundred fifty years of slavery
Ninety years of Jim Crow
Sixty years of separate but equal
Thirty-five years of racist housing policy (redlining)

Dudebros on this thread: "Why can't black people just get a job and work hard and better themselves?  Maybe black culture is to blame for their misfortunes.   I just don't see racism in modern times." 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 07:31:03 PM by tyort1 »

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #820 on: March 20, 2019, 12:26:59 AM »
Cultural factors are important.  It's too often a slippery slope between talking about cultural factors and demonizing a particular religion though.  Attributing acts of terrorism to a religion for example, typically indicates a poor understanding of the history and motivations behind the acts.

This is sort of not getting it but it's good to discuss it. So cultural factors aren't about demonizing religions. America has a gun culture for instance. I can pretty simply state that if you choose to tackle the amount of guns that were available within America you would have a really good chance of stopping various atrocities that occur. The problem is that getting rid of that gun culture is too hard so you have to accept the consequence of that culture.

I wasn't talking about religions and particular religions being bad. The atrocities in New Zealand for instance were committed against a religion by I assume someone that was not religiously motivated. I was talking about culture and how culture impact the people within those cultures and it's clear that you can't just state well statistically this occurs therefore racism. You need to be open to complexities in these discussions.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #821 on: March 20, 2019, 12:39:31 AM »
@steveo, what you're seeing in Australia may be different from what we're seeing in the U.S. with respect to black Americans.

Definitely.

You seem to be saying that this may be a consequence of their culture rather than racism.

It could be. I'm not stating that for a fact though but I'd state it's a significant factor. This isn't too cast aspersions at black people. It's just to state that the way those communities have developed may be a factor in on-going problems.

Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

This is actually the crucial point. I wish more people would state this. I'll answer as if this was a question. I don't believe that African cultures are unproductive. I think we are all basically the same genetically within reason. I think the issue probably is that over time black people have been put into a cycle of poverty. This is exactly like Australian aborigines however it's probably worse for Australian aborigines. I'm not stating this as a fact but as a guess.

Also, a reading of the lives of prominent Black Americans over the last century (especially before civil rights) shows time and time again, how brilliant and hardworking people struggled their way up and were often broken on the wheel of racism. 
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/obituaries/overlooked.html

I didn't read this article but we are completely in alignment on this issue. If you screw over people consistently it's going to be harder for them to excel in society.

On the other hand, at the playground, there was an Orthodox man with several adorable kids, and we had a great chat.  It's so easy to make a judgement based on how a person dresses or looks, but you really can't know who somebody is by looks or mannerism.  It's just no substitute.

Mate - I really like my extended Muslim family. My wife's sister married into a Muslim family and they are great people. The poor mum is a worker like you wouldn't believe. Just a machine. Whenever we catch up which is rare I enjoy it. Don't be offended however last time we met up a table fell over and they stated steve was scared a bomb had gone off. They are good people.

Stating that individuals are good people and even whole communities though has nothing to do with some communities having a culture that will probably have problems excelling in society. If you just use statistics state racism then you are not looking at the situation in a fair way.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #822 on: March 20, 2019, 12:41:36 AM »
Dudebros on this thread: "Why can't black people just get a job and work hard and better themselves?  Maybe black culture is to blame for their misfortunes.   I just don't see racism in modern times."

Meanwhile back to thread topic. Tyort 1 is back in form. Could you provide an explanation of you are still trying to communicate whilst using non-sensical ad-hominen attacks.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #823 on: March 20, 2019, 07:50:11 AM »

You seem to be saying that this may be a consequence of their culture rather than racism.

It could be. I'm not stating that for a fact though but I'd state it's a significant factor. This isn't too cast aspersions at black people. It's just to state that the way those communities have developed may be a factor in on-going problems.

Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

This is actually the crucial point. I wish more people would state this. I'll answer as if this was a question. I don't believe that African cultures are unproductive. I think we are all basically the same genetically within reason. I think the issue probably is that over time black people have been put into a cycle of poverty. This is exactly like Australian aborigines however it's probably worse for Australian aborigines. I'm not stating this as a fact but as a guess.


Right, while some black American communities may have developed vicious-cycle elements that contribute to poverty (drugs/teen parents/inability to develop wealth), these elements were not a feature of their original cultures.  They are a consequence of being poor.  You'll see these same elements in poor communities of other races and ethnicities in the US. 

But why are black Americans so poor?  It's not their African roots.  It's because their wealth was stolen for centuries; the fruits of black Americans' labor went to enrich white slaveowners instead of savings to buy land and pass it down to their descendants, or start businesses, or send kids to college, or whatever.

I think we're saying mostly the same thing here, but I'm just adding that the disproportional poverty of black Americans is largely a consequence of racism, in a way that is not true of the poverty of other groups in the US like the Hasidim. In other words, I'm saying that for black Americans: racism -> poverty -> dysfunctional culture -> poverty, etc

Whereas it's easy to see only dysfunctional culture -> poverty if one starts observing during part of the cycle.

It's also coming out that the rate of arrests, sentencing, imprisonment, and police killing of black Americans is way out of line.  People used to think it was simply because black Americans were causing more crime, but since video from handheld phones became common, it's becoming evident that the fear and suspicion of dark skinned people has more to do with it.  And once a person has been arrested and detained, the likelihood of losing a job, home, and family skyrockets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Kinsey
https://www.abc15.com/news/national/police-department-investigating-after-viral-video-shows-cops-confront-black-man-picking-up-trash
https://www.innocenceproject.org/black-people-disproportionately-arrested-for-marijuana-possession-in-louisiana/
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/5/17/17362100/starbucks-racial-profiling-yale-airbnb-911

Not even talking about reparations or justice, it seems like a simple place to start would be to bring equality to the way black Americans are treated by the authorities (police, housing authorities, judicial system, banks, schools). Just equality... not even justice.

I'm not sure how this translates to Australian aborigine issues, but I would imagine that perhaps some of the same issues apply.  Dark people are poor, poor people are scary, thus dark people are scary, thus more crackdowns in terms of school discipline and arrests.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 08:01:15 AM by Poundwise »

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #824 on: March 20, 2019, 08:03:41 AM »
Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

This is actually the crucial point. I wish more people would state this. I'll answer as if this was a question. I don't believe that African cultures are unproductive. I think we are all basically the same genetically within reason. I think the issue probably is that over time black people have been put into a cycle of poverty. This is exactly like Australian aborigines however it's probably worse for Australian aborigines. I'm not stating this as a fact but as a guess.

This seems to be the moment of divergence you're having with many of the respondents on this thread. In the quote above you're agreeing there is a high likelihood that current 'failure to thrive' in black American families is the direct result of a cycle of poverty. You also seem to be agreeing that the cycle of poverty is something that is imposed on the community, and not something the community is choosing. It follows that you are agreeing that a culture can be influenced by the sociological pressures exerted upon it by an outside force.

Many of the people on this thread are positing that the outside force perpetuating the poverty cycle is racism - originally as true legislation (slavery, Jim Crow, red lining), and perpetuating due to non-legislated internal bias and prejudice, as well as the generations lost to legislatively stolen wealth. Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do notagree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #825 on: March 20, 2019, 08:34:34 AM »
I'm going to add that there might be a self perpetuating cycle of racism as well:

Racism -> poverty in one group, and social separation of the groups

People are suspicious of the poor (because they're needy, might commit crimes, smell funny). 
Conveniently, poor people are color coded.
-> Racism

Tyson

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #826 on: March 20, 2019, 10:33:36 AM »
Dudebros on this thread: "Why can't black people just get a job and work hard and better themselves?  Maybe black culture is to blame for their misfortunes.   I just don't see racism in modern times."

Meanwhile back to thread topic. Tyort 1 is back in form. Could you provide an explanation of you are still trying to communicate whilst using non-sensical ad-hominen attacks.

My point is merely that you cannot ignore the weight of history if you are trying to make any sense of why black communities in America fail to thrive.  I understand you're in Australia so your experience there might be different.  But in America, these are massive, massive historic pressures that we still are dealing with the repercussions from. 

Why are there black ghettos?  Mostly due to redlining.  Why is there a culture of crime?  Because crime is what you turn to when there are no jobs.  Why are there no jobs?  Because separate but equal institutionalized mass discrimination against black people.  Even though the laws have been repealed, the view that black people are "lesser" has not. 

This stuff does not happen in a vacuum.  You really have to understand the history of it before you can grapple with the current situation. 

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #827 on: March 20, 2019, 12:48:10 PM »
Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

This is actually the crucial point. I wish more people would state this. I'll answer as if this was a question. I don't believe that African cultures are unproductive. I think we are all basically the same genetically within reason. I think the issue probably is that over time black people have been put into a cycle of poverty. This is exactly like Australian aborigines however it's probably worse for Australian aborigines. I'm not stating this as a fact but as a guess.

This seems to be the moment of divergence you're having with many of the respondents on this thread. In the quote above you're agreeing there is a high likelihood that current 'failure to thrive' in black American families is the direct result of a cycle of poverty. You also seem to be agreeing that the cycle of poverty is something that is imposed on the community, and not something the community is choosing. It follows that you are agreeing that a culture can be influenced by the sociological pressures exerted upon it by an outside force.

Many of the people on this thread are positing that the outside force perpetuating the poverty cycle is racism - originally as true legislation (slavery, Jim Crow, red lining), and perpetuating due to non-legislated internal bias and prejudice, as well as the generations lost to legislatively stolen wealth. Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do notagree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

Steveo - I think Sam has asked a really good question, and I really want to understand your position on this. Ignoring the rest of the thread, if I read your quoted comment, I completely agree with you. In my mind, it then seems obvious that the moral thing to do is to try to reverse the effects that created this cycle of poverty, but I'd like to understand what you view as the reasonable response to this situation.
 

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #828 on: March 20, 2019, 03:10:07 PM »
I think we're saying mostly the same thing here, but I'm just adding that the disproportional poverty of black Americans is largely a consequence of racism, in a way that is not true of the poverty of other groups in the US like the Hasidim. In other words, I'm saying that for black Americans: racism -> poverty -> dysfunctional culture -> poverty, etc

It's not this simple though. I'll give an example. Asian people - Chinese, Indian, Korean etc would have been discriminated against as well and yet as a whole they thrive.

It's not that I disagree with you. It's that the problem is more complex than a simple racism -> poverty. I'm not stating it didn't occur. I'm not stating that it hasn't impacted them. I am stating that other ethnic groups overcome these disadvantages.

It's also coming out that the rate of arrests, sentencing, imprisonment, and police killing of black Americans is way out of line.  People used to think it was simply because black Americans were causing more crime, but since video from handheld phones became common, it's becoming evident that the fear and suspicion of dark skinned people has more to do with it.  And once a person has been arrested and detained, the likelihood of losing a job, home, and family skyrockets.

I really doubt it's as one sided as what you state but I should clarify that. It's not everyone thinking it's always black people that cause crime. I bet they do cause a lot of crime. I think the issue is as you state in that black people are targeted by the police and it creates a viscous cycle. I think part of this problem is the war on drugs. If you fix that problem then you would make significant in-roads into fixing this issue.

Not even talking about reparations or justice, it seems like a simple place to start would be to bring equality to the way black Americans are treated by the authorities (police, housing authorities, judicial system, banks, schools). Just equality... not even justice.

I agree but this requires more details. I suggested stopping the war on drugs. That would be a big step up. Maybe you need to coach police on treating black people who are in legal situations.

I'm not sure how this translates to Australian aborigine issues, but I would imagine that perhaps some of the same issues apply.  Dark people are poor, poor people are scary, thus dark people are scary, thus more crackdowns in terms of school discipline and arrests.

I think Australian aboriginal issues show the problems with fixing the problem. The problem hasn't been fixed with institutional positive discrimination. Honestly I think Australian aborigines might be in a worse situation. Some Australian aborigines succeed via societies values but geez they have so many horrific problems. Deaths in custody and domestic violence figures that are horrific. It's really bad.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #829 on: March 20, 2019, 03:23:14 PM »
Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do notagree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

It's complex. Simplistic theories of "racism is the problem" don't align to reality and this theory causes problems. When people come up with simplistic theories like racism -> poverty of black communities they aren't grasping the problem. I think it's a way to feel good about yourself and it's a way to judge people that don't comply with your world view. So the people stating this are the same people that Jussie Smollett targeted. It's so easy to put yourself on a pedestal and state I'm fixing the corrupt system for my black (or whatever) brethren and pointing at anyone who disagrees with you as being some derogatory comment such as racist. This attitude is I think why this thread was started.

Not everyone agrees with these simplistic theories and we haven't even touched on possible ways to help fix the problem.

So yes racism has occurred and probably still occurs but it's becoming less and less of an issue. I mean how many people are really racist in that they think black people or whatever are beneath them. It's probably so insignificant. For instance I bet there are plenty of black police who are supposedly racist against black people. Institutional racism probably doesn't really exist either.

Did they exist in the past to a significant degree ? Yes.

What can be done right now to fix the situation. Well probably lots of things like for instance stopping the war on drugs and providing more opportunities to better education and health care and even community support. Will these things fix the problem - probably not because the issue is more complex than a simple racism -> poverty. It's going to take a lot of time.



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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #830 on: March 20, 2019, 03:28:01 PM »
I'm going to add that there might be a self perpetuating cycle of racism as well:

Racism -> poverty in one group, and social separation of the groups

People are suspicious of the poor (because they're needy, might commit crimes, smell funny). 
Conveniently, poor people are color coded.
-> Racism

Is this racism ? If the people were a different colour would this still be true ? I can see people being friendly with black people who live in an up-scale neighbourhood but avoiding people in the projects. They aren't racist per se.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #831 on: March 20, 2019, 03:30:01 PM »
Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

This is actually the crucial point. I wish more people would state this. I'll answer as if this was a question. I don't believe that African cultures are unproductive. I think we are all basically the same genetically within reason. I think the issue probably is that over time black people have been put into a cycle of poverty. This is exactly like Australian aborigines however it's probably worse for Australian aborigines. I'm not stating this as a fact but as a guess.

This seems to be the moment of divergence you're having with many of the respondents on this thread. In the quote above you're agreeing there is a high likelihood that current 'failure to thrive' in black American families is the direct result of a cycle of poverty. You also seem to be agreeing that the cycle of poverty is something that is imposed on the community, and not something the community is choosing. It follows that you are agreeing that a culture can be influenced by the sociological pressures exerted upon it by an outside force.

Many of the people on this thread are positing that the outside force perpetuating the poverty cycle is racism - originally as true legislation (slavery, Jim Crow, red lining), and perpetuating due to non-legislated internal bias and prejudice, as well as the generations lost to legislatively stolen wealth. Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do notagree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

Steveo - I think Sam has asked a really good question, and I really want to understand your position on this. Ignoring the rest of the thread, if I read your quoted comment, I completely agree with you. In my mind, it then seems obvious that the moral thing to do is to try to reverse the effects that created this cycle of poverty, but I'd like to understand what you view as the reasonable response to this situation.

It's really tough and I answered this. My take is we need to tackle the complexity of the problem with realistic expectations. At the end of the day people are going to have to pull themselves out of shitty situations and improve their lives.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #832 on: March 20, 2019, 03:34:03 PM »
Dudebros on this thread: "Why can't black people just get a job and work hard and better themselves?  Maybe black culture is to blame for their misfortunes.   I just don't see racism in modern times."

Meanwhile back to thread topic. Tyort 1 is back in form. Could you provide an explanation of you are still trying to communicate whilst using non-sensical ad-hominen attacks.

My point is merely that you cannot ignore the weight of history if you are trying to make any sense of why black communities in America fail to thrive.  I understand you're in Australia so your experience there might be different.  But in America, these are massive, massive historic pressures that we still are dealing with the repercussions from. 

Why are there black ghettos?  Mostly due to redlining.  Why is there a culture of crime?  Because crime is what you turn to when there are no jobs.  Why are there no jobs?  Because separate but equal institutionalized mass discrimination against black people.  Even though the laws have been repealed, the view that black people are "lesser" has not. 

This stuff does not happen in a vacuum.  You really have to understand the history of it before you can grapple with the current situation.

No problems. I didn't state you can just ignore the historical reasons for the current situation. I agree with you. It's a massive mess and fixing it is really hard. Some actions may make problems worse or just lead to other problems.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #833 on: March 20, 2019, 04:09:57 PM »
Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

This is actually the crucial point. I wish more people would state this. I'll answer as if this was a question. I don't believe that African cultures are unproductive. I think we are all basically the same genetically within reason. I think the issue probably is that over time black people have been put into a cycle of poverty. This is exactly like Australian aborigines however it's probably worse for Australian aborigines. I'm not stating this as a fact but as a guess.

This seems to be the moment of divergence you're having with many of the respondents on this thread. In the quote above you're agreeing there is a high likelihood that current 'failure to thrive' in black American families is the direct result of a cycle of poverty. You also seem to be agreeing that the cycle of poverty is something that is imposed on the community, and not something the community is choosing. It follows that you are agreeing that a culture can be influenced by the sociological pressures exerted upon it by an outside force.

Many of the people on this thread are positing that the outside force perpetuating the poverty cycle is racism - originally as true legislation (slavery, Jim Crow, red lining), and perpetuating due to non-legislated internal bias and prejudice, as well as the generations lost to legislatively stolen wealth. Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do notagree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

Steveo - I think Sam has asked a really good question, and I really want to understand your position on this. Ignoring the rest of the thread, if I read your quoted comment, I completely agree with you. In my mind, it then seems obvious that the moral thing to do is to try to reverse the effects that created this cycle of poverty, but I'd like to understand what you view as the reasonable response to this situation.

It's really tough and I answered this. My take is we need to tackle the complexity of the problem with realistic expectations. At the end of the day people are going to have to pull themselves out of shitty situations and improve their lives.

Thank you, and again I don't really think we're that far apart.

My position isn't that racism is the sole cause of these problems, and I absolutely agree with you that the issues are complex. But acknowledging the complexity doesn't (in my view) absolve me from the moral responsibility to help correct the parts of our society that treat people unfairly.

You mentioned the war on drugs--that would be a great place to start, along with badly needed prison reform (here in the US).

In addition to policy and law changes, I think we have to continue to push for a society that does not accept racism (or sexism, or class-ism). That might be part of why you find the left off-putting--they are working hard to de-normalize racism, work which, with the recent revival of white supremacism in the US, feels quite necessary to me.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #834 on: March 20, 2019, 04:18:44 PM »
Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do not agree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

It's complex. Simplistic theories of "racism is the problem" don't align to reality and this theory causes problems. When people come up with simplistic theories like racism -> poverty of black communities they aren't grasping the problem. I think it's a way to feel good about yourself and it's a way to judge people that don't comply with your world view. So the people stating this are the same people that Jussie Smollett targeted. It's so easy to put yourself on a pedestal and state I'm fixing the corrupt system for my black (or whatever) brethren and pointing at anyone who disagrees with you as being some derogatory comment such as racist. This attitude is I think why this thread was started.

Not everyone agrees with these simplistic theories and we haven't even touched on possible ways to help fix the problem.

So yes racism has occurred and probably still occurs but it's becoming less and less of an issue. I mean how many people are really racist in that they think black people or whatever are beneath them. It's probably so insignificant. For instance I bet there are plenty of black police who are supposedly racist against black people. Institutional racism probably doesn't really exist either.

Did they exist in the past to a significant degree ? Yes.

What can be done right now to fix the situation. Well probably lots of things like for instance stopping the war on drugs and providing more opportunities to better education and health care and even community support. Will these things fix the problem - probably not because the issue is more complex than a simple racism -> poverty. It's going to take a lot of time.

Okay, I agree that declaring racism the only adversity facing black communities in America is indeed simplistic. As you've said, sociology and culture and country are complex concepts. To this point, we are well agreed!

But again, we come to the point of diversion - you say racism cannot be a comorbidity of black poverty, let alone a causal factor of black poverty. You're pretty vehement on this point, including saying institutionalized racism has been completely eradicated. And yet, you also say that black poverty is a complex issue, that cannot be captured under "simplistic theories." In your system, what precludes racism from being a comorbidity of black poverty?

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #835 on: March 20, 2019, 08:32:13 PM »
Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do not agree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

It's complex. Simplistic theories of "racism is the problem" don't align to reality and this theory causes problems. When people come up with simplistic theories like racism -> poverty of black communities they aren't grasping the problem. I think it's a way to feel good about yourself and it's a way to judge people that don't comply with your world view. So the people stating this are the same people that Jussie Smollett targeted. It's so easy to put yourself on a pedestal and state I'm fixing the corrupt system for my black (or whatever) brethren and pointing at anyone who disagrees with you as being some derogatory comment such as racist. This attitude is I think why this thread was started.

Not everyone agrees with these simplistic theories and we haven't even touched on possible ways to help fix the problem.

So yes racism has occurred and probably still occurs but it's becoming less and less of an issue. I mean how many people are really racist in that they think black people or whatever are beneath them. It's probably so insignificant. For instance I bet there are plenty of black police who are supposedly racist against black people. Institutional racism probably doesn't really exist either.

Did they exist in the past to a significant degree ? Yes.

What can be done right now to fix the situation. Well probably lots of things like for instance stopping the war on drugs and providing more opportunities to better education and health care and even community support. Will these things fix the problem - probably not because the issue is more complex than a simple racism -> poverty. It's going to take a lot of time.

Okay, I agree that declaring racism the only adversity facing black communities in America is indeed simplistic. As you've said, sociology and culture and country are complex concepts. To this point, we are well agreed!

But again, we come to the point of diversion - you say racism cannot be a comorbidity of black poverty, let alone a causal factor of black poverty. You're pretty vehement on this point, including saying institutionalized racism has been completely eradicated. And yet, you also say that black poverty is a complex issue, that cannot be captured under "simplistic theories." In your system, what precludes racism from being a comorbidity of black poverty?

It's good we can agree that this is a complex issue.

I didn't state that racism isn't a significant factor in black poverty. I'll try and clarify my point. I really doubt racism today is a significant factor in black poverty. I don't think I've said institutional racism has been completely eradicated but yes we must be close to this point. In the greater scheme of looking at black poverty today I doubt institutional racism has any effect. That doesn't mean that there aren't pockets of it but this stuff has really gone the way of the Dodo.

Racism in the past may be a significant contributing factor to black poverty but that doesn't mean it is today. I hope that this is clear.

This then leads onto other issues. If it isn't racism today then what is the problem and what can be done. The what can be done question is really important because you might help some part of the problem but make another problem.

I think you guys focusing on racism are doing the issue a disservice. I'm not even sure why there is such a focus on racism. I think maybe it's a way to express a tribal belief rather than anything that is based on a rational thought process. I think stating racism is a way to avoid the issue. Maybe people prefer simplistic answers so they can view themselves as better than other people.

If you start stating these type of comments:-

1. It's a complex issue.
2. We (not making it a tribal issue) need to look at a whole bunch of actions that can be taken.
3. We have to accept that people have to help themselves,
4, We can't judge the situation by the use of simplistic theories backed up by simplistic statistical analysis.

I think that you may be able to improve the situation over time.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #836 on: March 20, 2019, 09:45:56 PM »
Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

This is actually the crucial point. I wish more people would state this. I'll answer as if this was a question. I don't believe that African cultures are unproductive. I think we are all basically the same genetically within reason. I think the issue probably is that over time black people have been put into a cycle of poverty. This is exactly like Australian aborigines however it's probably worse for Australian aborigines. I'm not stating this as a fact but as a guess.

This seems to be the moment of divergence you're having with many of the respondents on this thread. In the quote above you're agreeing there is a high likelihood that current 'failure to thrive' in black American families is the direct result of a cycle of poverty. You also seem to be agreeing that the cycle of poverty is something that is imposed on the community, and not something the community is choosing. It follows that you are agreeing that a culture can be influenced by the sociological pressures exerted upon it by an outside force.

Many of the people on this thread are positing that the outside force perpetuating the poverty cycle is racism - originally as true legislation (slavery, Jim Crow, red lining), and perpetuating due to non-legislated internal bias and prejudice, as well as the generations lost to legislatively stolen wealth. Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do notagree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

Steveo - I think Sam has asked a really good question, and I really want to understand your position on this. Ignoring the rest of the thread, if I read your quoted comment, I completely agree with you. In my mind, it then seems obvious that the moral thing to do is to try to reverse the effects that created this cycle of poverty, but I'd like to understand what you view as the reasonable response to this situation.

It's really tough and I answered this. My take is we need to tackle the complexity of the problem with realistic expectations. At the end of the day people are going to have to pull themselves out of shitty situations and improve their lives.

Thank you, and again I don't really think we're that far apart.

My position isn't that racism is the sole cause of these problems, and I absolutely agree with you that the issues are complex. But acknowledging the complexity doesn't (in my view) absolve me from the moral responsibility to help correct the parts of our society that treat people unfairly.

You mentioned the war on drugs--that would be a great place to start, along with badly needed prison reform (here in the US).

In addition to policy and law changes, I think we have to continue to push for a society that does not accept racism (or sexism, or class-ism). That might be part of why you find the left off-putting--they are working hard to de-normalize racism, work which, with the recent revival of white supremacism in the US, feels quite necessary to me.

I agree with all of this but I'm very nervous about the last part. We do have to push for a society that doesn't accept all sorts of -isms but geez people are labelling people that aren't anything at all like that as a racist or misogynist or whatever. If you are going to use that label you had better be right. It's rude and delusional and immediately stops any meaningful discussion.

I think the prisons and the war on drugs are great spots to start. I think probably more has to happen.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #837 on: March 21, 2019, 09:27:16 AM »
Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

This is actually the crucial point. I wish more people would state this. I'll answer as if this was a question. I don't believe that African cultures are unproductive. I think we are all basically the same genetically within reason. I think the issue probably is that over time black people have been put into a cycle of poverty. This is exactly like Australian aborigines however it's probably worse for Australian aborigines. I'm not stating this as a fact but as a guess.

This seems to be the moment of divergence you're having with many of the respondents on this thread. In the quote above you're agreeing there is a high likelihood that current 'failure to thrive' in black American families is the direct result of a cycle of poverty. You also seem to be agreeing that the cycle of poverty is something that is imposed on the community, and not something the community is choosing. It follows that you are agreeing that a culture can be influenced by the sociological pressures exerted upon it by an outside force.

Many of the people on this thread are positing that the outside force perpetuating the poverty cycle is racism - originally as true legislation (slavery, Jim Crow, red lining), and perpetuating due to non-legislated internal bias and prejudice, as well as the generations lost to legislatively stolen wealth. Despite agreeing that outside forces do influence communities, you do notagree that the outside force perpetuating the cycle of poverty in black communities is racism.

My question to you is: if not racism, then what?

Steveo - I think Sam has asked a really good question, and I really want to understand your position on this. Ignoring the rest of the thread, if I read your quoted comment, I completely agree with you. In my mind, it then seems obvious that the moral thing to do is to try to reverse the effects that created this cycle of poverty, but I'd like to understand what you view as the reasonable response to this situation.

It's really tough and I answered this. My take is we need to tackle the complexity of the problem with realistic expectations. At the end of the day people are going to have to pull themselves out of shitty situations and improve their lives.

Thank you, and again I don't really think we're that far apart.

My position isn't that racism is the sole cause of these problems, and I absolutely agree with you that the issues are complex. But acknowledging the complexity doesn't (in my view) absolve me from the moral responsibility to help correct the parts of our society that treat people unfairly.

You mentioned the war on drugs--that would be a great place to start, along with badly needed prison reform (here in the US).

In addition to policy and law changes, I think we have to continue to push for a society that does not accept racism (or sexism, or class-ism). That might be part of why you find the left off-putting--they are working hard to de-normalize racism, work which, with the recent revival of white supremacism in the US, feels quite necessary to me.

I agree with all of this but I'm very nervous about the last part. We do have to push for a society that doesn't accept all sorts of -isms but geez people are labelling people that aren't anything at all like that as a racist or misogynist or whatever. If you are going to use that label you had better be right. It's rude and delusional and immediately stops any meaningful discussion.

I think the prisons and the war on drugs are great spots to start. I think probably more has to happen.

I agree with you that the methods some people use can put others off. As a pragmatist, I prefer whatever approach I think is the most likely to lead to change. But it's not my job to tell others what strategy to employ. I also don't change my position on something or work less just because I don't like someone else's tactics.

I think you guys focusing on racism are doing the issue a disservice. I'm not even sure why there is such a focus on racism. I think maybe it's a way to express a tribal belief rather than anything that is based on a rational thought process. I think stating racism is a way to avoid the issue. Maybe people prefer simplistic answers so they can view themselves as better than other people.

I appreciate your making your view of my position clear. I do feel that it's a slight misunderstanding of my (and others) positions though. I think I've provided ample evidence that I'm thinking about this issue rationally, and I'd be interested to hear any criticism you have about my approach. I've put a lot of time and effort into trying to understand what is going on and while I can't claim to understand the whole system (no one can), I have come to the conclusion that there are systematic biases that make life easier for some people and harder for others, based both on statistical evidence from experts and from data collected from my own and others lived experiences. I know you dismiss the statistics as over-simplified, but I think if you spend some time talking to the professionals who actually do these kinds of studies, you'll find the vast majority of them are rigorous, fair-minded, and non-partisan. When their expertise gets filtered through non-expert media to non-expert laypeople, I agree that it is often misinterpreted, but that's got nothing to do with the underlying work.

In the interest of reciprocity, when I hear someone use the complexity of the situation as a reason to avoid taking action, it sounds to me like that is a way to avoid the issue.

[I want to mention something that I heard this morning, but I'd like to preface it by saying I'm not trying to draw a comparison between your position and the positions on slavery in this story, and I wouldn't want this to be interpreted as an attack. I share it as an example of how strongly we want to avoid seeing ourselves as "the bad guy"]. On NPR on my drive to work they were interviewing the author of a book called The War Before the War, which deals with attitudes towards slavery before the civil war. The author talked about the ways in which people would try to convince themselves that the system was so complex and entrenched there was no way out of slavery, that they didn't create slavery, they only inherited it, or that since they didn't directly own slaves they weren't participating in the system-- all ways to evade the moral responsibility of addressing the problem.

We agree there are serious problems. We may not agree on the cause, but we do agree on some of the things that could be solutions (end the war on drugs, reform prisons). So do you actively pursue those ends (campaign for them, vote for people that will enact those changes, donate to those causes)? If you do, then we really are on the same team. If you don't, is there something holding you back from doing so?

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #838 on: March 21, 2019, 09:41:04 PM »
I don't really believe in institutionalized racism today. It sounds over the top.

These instances of institutionalized racism/sexism/bigotry are only slowly being amended. The problem is that it takes time to turn the ship around in these instances. You don't just go out and change a law and then everything changes.

I don't see institutionalized racism within society today much if at all. I see affirmative action which is positive discrimination.

Institutional racism probably doesn't really exist either.

I didn't state that racism isn't a significant factor in black poverty. I'll try and clarify my point. I really doubt racism today is a significant factor in black poverty. I don't think I've said institutional racism has been completely eradicated but yes we must be close to this point. In the greater scheme of looking at black poverty today I doubt institutional racism has any effect. That doesn't mean that there aren't pockets of it but this stuff has really gone the way of the Dodo.

Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.



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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #839 on: March 21, 2019, 10:12:10 PM »
...

My point is using statistics to state that there is something wrong and declaring it racism is just way way way too simplistic. It's even hard to state that there is something wrong. Do you or I have the right to state that a culture is bad ? I think having 10 kids and women having to stay at home, cook and clean and sometimes go to work whilst the father figure goes and drinks coffee and prays and hangs out with his mates is bad but it's not even that simple.
...

If you point out cultural differences it's often considered racist or sexist or whatever but it's not and we have to be mature enough to see that. It also throws all these statistics out of the water especially when you get dumb statistics that are just used to portray a picture.

I get the impression of rich entitled white people stating well it's racist that these people are poor and we have to fix the problem when the problem is part of their cultural identity. You cannot go and change culture that simply. It's who these people are.

Some of these situations are complex and tough and solutions aren't easy.

As for ISIS and neo-nazis I think this is so tough because as you state I think they hate moderates as much as they hate the other side. I honestly think that extremists lead to these situations but you can't outlaw extremism. Can you legislate for women to never wear a hijab ? The last time I saw my niece she was completely covered. Should we outlaw that. She is a good person but I think that a small minority of people who are this extreme turn to terrorism. The extremism leads to the really bad stuff.

You should hear my extended family talk about 9/11 or other Islamic terrorism acts that occur. They don't think it was Muslims they think it was a government conspiracy in order to curtail people's individual rights and Muslims are the easiest people to target first.

@steveo, what you're seeing in Australia may be different from what we're seeing in the U.S. with respect to black Americans.

Black Americans are disproportionately poor in America, there is no argument about that. 

Maybe so, but in the US, we find that the descendants of enslaved Africans do worse on many measures (economic, education, lifespan) than African immigrants who were never enslaved, more so than the difference between native white Americans and white immigrants. Was it the African cultures that were unproductive, or were the cultures of some Black American families somehow misshapen by years of oppression, to create a cycle of poverty?

Also, a reading of the lives of prominent Black Americans over the last century (especially before civil rights) shows time and time again, how brilliant and hardworking people struggled their way up and were often broken on the wheel of racism. 
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/obituaries/overlooked.html



In Australia a lot of the reason that Indigenous Australians are poorer, have way lower life expectancy (about 10 years less on average) is a direct result of Aboriginal people being used as slaves, being pushed off their land and because of the stolen generation. Being taken away from your family and raised to work for white families (often for no money or very little wages), up until the 1960s this was government policy. This has resulted in a lot of issues, as well as a lot of discrimination towards Indigenous people now (maybe more of a subconscious bias for some people)

I am not too sure what the "positive discrimination" that Steveo talks about is, but I dont think 20 years of it has done much to overcome 200 years of discrimination.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #840 on: March 22, 2019, 12:19:50 AM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #841 on: March 22, 2019, 12:33:23 AM »
In Australia a lot of the reason that Indigenous Australians are poorer, have way lower life expectancy (about 10 years less on average) is a direct result of Aboriginal people being used as slaves, being pushed off their land and because of the stolen generation. Being taken away from your family and raised to work for white families (often for no money or very little wages), up until the 1960s this was government policy. This has resulted in a lot of issues, as well as a lot of discrimination towards Indigenous people now (maybe more of a subconscious bias for some people)

I am not too sure what the "positive discrimination" that Steveo talks about is, but I dont think 20 years of it has done much to overcome 200 years of discrimination.

Aboriginal Australians are probably in a worse overall situation than black people in America.

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/quick-guide/12078
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/quick-guide/12099
https://www.commbank.com.au/about-us/opportunity-initiatives/opportunity-from-good-business-practice/role-modelling-reconciliation.html
https://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/76/Australia-CONSTITUTIONAL-LEGAL-FOUNDATIONS.html
https://www.scu.edu.au/scholarships/indigenous-australian-student-scholarships/indigenous-access-scholarship/
https://www.adelaide.edu.au/indigenous/home

A fairly common question when applying for a job in Australia is are you of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Island background. This is because companies want to encourage diversification.

Australia has also had a white Australia policy which has been reversed. Non-white people such as Chinese, Korean, Fillipino etc have thrived in Australia. Aborigines thrive in sporting endeavours especially rugby league and I think Aussie Rules.

The quoted comment above though needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The stolen generation and aboriginal people being used as slaves are not necessarily the main reason and you can't factually state the current position is " direct result " of extremely poor decisions made in the past. We also can't change the past. It's done.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #842 on: March 22, 2019, 12:47:55 AM »
I know you dismiss the statistics as over-simplified, but I think if you spend some time talking to the professionals who actually do these kinds of studies, you'll find the vast majority of them are rigorous, fair-minded, and non-partisan. When their expertise gets filtered through non-expert media to non-expert laypeople, I agree that it is often misinterpreted, but that's got nothing to do with the underlying work.

I think most people conducting analyses have their heart in the right place but I do think it's common to identify with a cause. This can be a problem in that you can struggle to discuss issues rationally. A good example is why this thread was started.

In the interest of reciprocity, when I hear someone use the complexity of the situation as a reason to avoid taking action, it sounds to me like that is a way to avoid the issue.

This is a fair comment. Personally I think that there are some pretty clear cut options to take that can improve society. The problem is changing things like stopping the war on drugs and reforming prisons is hard to do.

On NPR on my drive to work they were interviewing the author of a book called The War Before the War, which deals with attitudes towards slavery before the civil war. The author talked about the ways in which people would try to convince themselves that the system was so complex and entrenched there was no way out of slavery, that they didn't create slavery, they only inherited it, or that since they didn't directly own slaves they weren't participating in the system-- all ways to evade the moral responsibility of addressing the problem.

I've heard this before and it's a good point. I don't think it's relevant to this discussion but it's something to be aware of.

We agree there are serious problems. We may not agree on the cause, but we do agree on some of the things that could be solutions (end the war on drugs, reform prisons). So do you actively pursue those ends (campaign for them, vote for people that will enact those changes, donate to those causes)? If you do, then we really are on the same team. If you don't, is there something holding you back from doing so?

I'm Australian plus I'm apathetic mainly because fighting causes goes against my idea of how to build a good life. I should state though that in Australia we only just legalised gay marriage. I work with a couple of gay people and one was clearly pushing people to vote to legalise gay marriage. I was a little offended that he even spoke to me about it because I find it so fucken offensive that gay people can't get married. I told him as much as well. My wife is catholic and the church preaches against gay marriage. My wife and myself both voted for the change. I will vote for significant changes without a problem.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 12:51:49 AM by steveo »

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #843 on: March 22, 2019, 01:01:07 AM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

Racism is still a problem, it may not be as obvious to you since we dont have slaves or segregation but it still exists and still affects people in their day to day life.

I have had bosses tell me they would never employ an Aboriginal person given the choice, I have family members who have recently refused to rent their property to people based on the colour of their skin, people being treated by police differently based on their ethnicity. Racism might not be government legislated like it was in the past but it definitely still exists.


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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #844 on: March 22, 2019, 01:38:09 AM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

I think this has been answered, but I also have seen first hand employers say they wouldn't hire an aboriginal as "the won't turn up Monday". Stereotypes take generations to change, and colour of skin cannot be hidden.  Aboriginals in Australia are still systematically discriminated against, just not by government policy.

GuitarStv

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #845 on: March 22, 2019, 06:55:46 AM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

Racism is still a problem, it may not be as obvious to you since we dont have slaves or segregation but it still exists and still affects people in their day to day life.

I have had bosses tell me they would never employ an Aboriginal person given the choice, I have family members who have recently refused to rent their property to people based on the colour of their skin, people being treated by police differently based on their ethnicity. Racism might not be government legislated like it was in the past but it definitely still exists.

The president of the United States was sued by the justice department for failing to rent apartments to black people.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #846 on: March 22, 2019, 07:02:19 AM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

Ah, okay. Thank you for restating. I accept that you believe racism (I'm assuming both institutionalized and individual prejudice/bias) is fading away and is not a factor in black poverty.

Yet, upthread we had a discussion where you seemed to agree that black poverty is, at least partially, something that is imposed on black communities from an outside source. What do you think those forces are?

I ask you without preconception. I'm not trying to force you into a corner. I truly, sincerely would like an answer. And I beg you to respond more deeply than 'it's complicated'. I agree we'll probably never find all the causal factors, but the top 1 or 2, please! I also beg you not to divert into explaining what might be done to fix the complication, or explaining why racism is no longer valid. I've accepted that you don't believe in racism, and I agree with your theories on how to start move forward - ending the war on drugs, etc.

Please, for all that is merciful, what do you think is causing the complication?

edit: wording
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 07:11:52 AM by Sailor Sam »

jinga nation

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #847 on: March 22, 2019, 07:08:47 AM »
In America, these are the facts:

Two hundred fifty years of slavery
Ninety years of Jim Crow
Sixty years of separate but equal
Thirty-five years of racist housing policy (redlining)

Dudebros on this thread: "Why can't black people just get a job and work hard and better themselves?  Maybe black culture is to blame for their misfortunes.   I just don't see racism in modern times."

Bolded by me.

Exactly why Dr. Ben Carson was hired by the current administration. "See we have a Black Sec of HUD. There's no racism". Whitewashing.

jinga nation

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #848 on: March 22, 2019, 07:17:43 AM »
You should hear my extended family talk about 9/11 or other Islamic terrorism acts that occur. They don't think it was Muslims they think it was a government conspiracy in order to curtail people's individual rights and Muslims are the easiest people to target first.

A lot of people in the Arab and Middle-East still consider the Crusaders to the first Christian terrorists. "They started it first... so why should we stop" is a common refrain.
And govt conspiracy to frame Muslims is another refrain, look at how Israel has treated Palestine with western support.
And now it's a vicious deadly tit-for-tat globally.
The end of religion is the only solution for this conflict.
Forgiveness and truces have not worked.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #849 on: March 22, 2019, 08:57:44 AM »
In America, these are the facts:

Two hundred fifty years of slavery
Ninety years of Jim Crow
Sixty years of separate but equal
Thirty-five years of racist housing policy (redlining)

Dudebros on this thread: "Why can't black people just get a job and work hard and better themselves?  Maybe black culture is to blame for their misfortunes.   I just don't see racism in modern times."

Bolded by me.

Exactly why Dr. Ben Carson was hired by the current administration. "See we have a Black Sec of HUD. There's no racism". Whitewashing.

We're in pretty strong agreement that racism is still very much alive and kicking in America.  What is amazing to me is when people like me say "I see racism in my daily life all the time" and others say "I just don't see racism as a thing anymore".  Dude, WTF did I just say?  I'm telling you point blank that it's a thing.  And I've provided specific examples.  Grrr....