Author Topic: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?  (Read 67040 times)

ericrugiero

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 303
Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« on: February 25, 2019, 01:15:15 PM »
First of all, this post is not intended to start a fight.  There have been several threads that have made me want to respond with my views (but I have refrained so that the thread wasn't sidetracked.)  Please read this and understand that I'm wanting open and honest communication without fighting or being nasty to each other. 

In reading most of the threads around here, it seems like most of the members lean to the left both politically and socially.  I tend to be more on the conservative end of the spectrum.  Comments are made with assumptions about conservatives that make me defensive whether I should be or not.  For example, in a recent thread there was a reference to someone who watched fox news and that it was not surprising that this viewer made racist comments.  Admittedly, there are conservatives who are racists but there are also liberals who are racists.  It seems like racism has become a default accusation if you disagree with someone.  (for example, if you don't like ILLEGAL immigration, you must be racist)  In my experience, most conservatives are not opposed to immigration, they just want it done legally by people who are going to follow our laws.  Breaking into the country illegally isn't a good start to following the laws of our country.  I'm not a Trump fan or a big proponent of building a wall.  But, I do agree we have a big issue with border security which needs to be solved.  That has nothing to do with the race of the people coming through our Southern border.  It has everything to do with them following our laws and being productive citizens (as well as restricting illegal drugs, human trafficking, etc).  Why can't we have productive discussions about this without assuming the worst of others?

Regarding fox news, there are not a lot of good options for a conservative to get news from a TV show.  I guess my issue with the comment implying racism (and others supporting it) is that an assumption is being made about conservatives that is not true of the majority of them.  You can watch a tv station or show without agreeing with everything on it.  Also, some things that are labeled "racist" are just things that people disagree with and not real racism.  Our society (both conservative and liberal) tends to assume the worst of people who don't agree with them.  In my experience, most people are liberal or conservative because that's what they legitimately think will be best for people as a whole.  I'd like us as a country to reach the place where we can openly discuss the merits of different beliefs and whether they make sense.  Right now, our media as a whole and many other people are so caught up in trashing Donald Trump and anyone they disagree with that we can't have a reasonable and open discussion without getting mad and defensive.  We should be able to look for the best in people without being so easily offended. 

My concern right now is that we are going the wrong way with racism.  Obama was our first black president which is great (I disagree with many of his policies but I'm glad we had a black president).  But, he didn't do much of anything to reduce racism and help us be all one people (if anything, he was divisive).  That was a big wasted opportunity, he could have made a big difference in bringing us all together.  Now, we have Trump who spends much of his time fighting with the media and making controversial statements/tweets.  The mainstream media is so upset with him they aren't helping matters (or being objective for the most part).  We have made so much progress as a country that I hate to see us go backwards. 

I'll end my rant here because it's long enough.  For the most part, this community is open minded and accepting.  I occasionally get frustrated with comments in this forum but I'm frequently disappointed with comments from both liberals and conservatives elsewhere who don't seem to be able to see both sides of an issue and make logical arguments for why they believe what they do. So many comments (on facebook, twitter, tv, etc) are inflammatory and lack the logical arguments needed to change anyone's mind. 

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2019, 01:17:36 PM »
I have a shit ton of thoughts on this, but it probably belongs in another sub-forum.

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2019, 01:23:50 PM »
I have no problem discussing this, but this should probably be moved to the off topic sub-forum first.

ericrugiero

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 303
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2019, 01:26:58 PM »
Sorry, I guess I put it in the wrong sub-forum.  Mods, would you please move? 

jpompo

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2019, 01:30:34 PM »
But, he didn't do much of anything to reduce racism and help us be all one people (if anything, he was divisive).  That was a big wasted opportunity, he could have made a big difference in bringing us all together. 

He really could have, but then he went out and wore a tan suit...

FINate

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2019, 01:51:09 PM »
Why is the country so polarized? Because people have put their identity in political parties (or, rather, in opposition to whichever party they don't like). Recommended reading: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-are-wrong-about-republicans-republicans-are-wrong-about-democrats/

Quote
ďThe danger of mega-partisan identity is that it encourages citizens to care more about partisan victory than about real policy outcomes,Ē

When it becomes about winning, because we feel good when we win, then decency and humanity get thrown out the window.

Try being a "moderate" or "independent." Folks in this camp don't necessarily averaging out all opposing ideas to arrive in the middle. Instead, they tend to be unorthodox, supporting and opposing aspects of both parties. It's great fun...my conservative friends think I'm a bleeding heart liberal and my liberal friends think I'm a wingnut.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Location: MA
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2019, 01:55:15 PM »
Quote
Obama was our first black president which is great (I disagree with many of his policies but I'm glad we had a black president).  But, he didn't do much of anything to reduce racism and help us be all one people (if anything, he was divisive).

Yes, because it was his job to make people act less racist....

Please give examples of him being divisive, because, if anything, his entire appeal (refer to the 2004 convention speech about no red states or blue states) was based on the fact that we were all in it together.  One of the first things he did as president was to meet with the leaders of the Republican party in order to attempt to meet in the middle on some issues.  The GOP had something else in mind.  Remember, their #1 priority was to make Obama a "one term president"

https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/the-gops-no-compromise-pledge-044311

Back to your original question, which is more interesting, and I think about it a lot. 

"Why does it have to be this way?"  Partly, I think it is because all the incentives are there to make it this way.  People don't vote when they are happy.  People don't buy things, they don't click on news articles about happy people and positive trends.    The media thrives on outrage, on getting people upset.  Politics is the same way.  When you really get people to sit down and talk to each other, without preconceived notions, people agree a lot more than they disagree.   

I also think there are greater forces at work, to some extent.  I think people are deeply wired to be tribal.  They tend to hold opinions that their family and friends hold, and to have a contrary opinion means potentially being ostracized from your peers/social groups.  I think true critical thinking is extremely rare, and that most people who think they are having reasoned opinions are really reasoning after making the choice to have the same opinion that makes them socially comfortable. 

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2019, 02:03:25 PM »
I think I can make a few comments without going out of bounds for the forum, but I guess the mods are the ultimate judge of that. Anyway,

On the left-leaning nature of this forum:

Using the 2016 election as a proxy for where certain demographics land on the political spectrum, college educated voters were 58% more likely to choose the liberal candidate over the conservative candidate. This edge fell to 51% for the 2018 midterm, which was supposedly less contentious. But still, 3:2 more likely to lean left if you have a college degree. Numbers come from Pew Research and are easily Googleable.

Given that FIRE is largely a game played by college educated professionals, it makes sense that left leaners are overrepresented on this forum.

Add on top of that, how important a public option for healthcare is to retiring early. The US public option was largely expanded under the liberal White House/Congress in 2010, and the Republican party spent the next seven years trying to get rid of that legislation while promoting no viable alternative of their own.

On the media:

I largely think the mainstream media does a pretty okay job.I take issue with a few outlets. Namely Fox News and to a lesser extent, CNN.

But by and large, ABC, NBC, NPR, PBS, The Times, and The Post do a good job reporting on things.

I’ve heard the argument that they’re trying to “take down” the current President, but even if you’re a fan of Donald Trump, you would have to see that says incredibly stupid, petty, and offensive things on almost a daily basis. Maybe you or others think it gets too much coverage, but not to cover it would be to normalize it, which would in itself, be an editorial decision.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2019, 02:14:43 PM »
Oh geez. Well, you are going to immediately write off my response as merely being another example of one side attacking another, but I think the honest answer is "because that's what Republicans have drug us down to."

An environment where both sides disagreed with each other but respected each other is more-or-less what we used to have before "One of the great problems we have in the Republican Party is that we donít encourage you to be nasty" Newt Gingrich came to power and transformed the Republican Party in his own image. And it's only been downhill from there, because if one side is playing dirty and the other isn't they will win. So the other side has to start playing dirty too, and it only descends further.

I think it's very interesting that you accuse Obama of being "divisive", because I can't think of any justification for that. He was willing to point out real problems of racism and unequal treatment by police and other similar issues sure, but he did not create them. Obama was *constantly* calling for unity and cooperation.

Meanwhile the Republican Senate that had openly vowed to block every single thing he did (regardless of its merit). Meanwhile Republican Conspiracy theorists (including Trump himself) were claiming he was born in Kenya, or was an Atheist, or was a Muslim, or was a Socialist, or was going to seize power and become the American Dictator after his second term was up. And then the conservatives elect Trump, and Obama was the racially divisive one?!

These were all positions that Fox News repeated, if not originated. The Fox News that intentionally mixes its "news" programs / articles with its "opinion" programs / artices, making it extremely difficult for casual viewers to know which is which. Fox News which is actually leaves you less informed about current issues that watching no news at all. Fox news which intends so explicitly as you say to pander to conservatives. Not to be accurate, not to stand strongly for the Truth, to feed conservatives what they want to hear. And that of course enters its own feedback loop, since only conservatives watch Fox, Fox can't/won't say anything to make them mad, both in terms of editorial spin and also by their choice of what they choose to cover and what they ignore. Since Fox is only saying things that affirm their already-held beliefs, conservatives drift farther from neutral reality and the cycle repeats.

Social media in general is helping the divisiveness along for two reasons. First, obviously, it's impossible to have reasoned discussions about complicated over short-form text like tweets or status updates. The only thing you can hope to get out of that is to hype up people already on your side, and so that's what rises to the top. The other thing that happens which is a serious issue and may literally lead to the downfall of society, is that people tend to self-select themselves into other groups of people that are like them. In the real world that's no so much an issue, you are of course going to mostly only meet people who live near you but that's going to include a wide range of people. But on Facebook you suddenly can find a group that caters to exactly your beliefs, and surround yourself in an echo chamber that only reinforces what you want to hear. That's why we now see the rise of anti-vaxxers and the like, but it applies to political propaganda and partisan politics too. Add to that mix bad actors like Russia who we know to be intentionally pumping divisive rhetoric and propaganda in an effort to destabilize the country and you have a bad mix with no obvious solution.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 02:17:02 PM by sherr »

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2019, 02:21:18 PM »
Further commentary on the media:

If you get your news free (and it's not publicly funded), it's probably bad. Think the links that your uncle shares on Facebook.

If you pay for your news, but it comes bundled with Disney Channel, HGTV, and ESPN*, chances are your news is going to share a lot more in common with "House Hunters" than it is with your local paper.

Paid newspaper subscriptions are still the best source of news in my opinion. The New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal charge $100+ a year. You cannot pay for a subscription to Brietbart, the Huffington Post, or the Washington Times. These are rags. They make money by keeping you emotional enough to turn the page/keep clicking so that you view more ads.

If you don't have the money to pay for news, publicly funded options like NPR and PBS are an excellent alternative.

*As an aside, this same commentary applies to sports as well. If you want to know which offensive lineman grades out the best in the upcoming draft, you pay for a subscription to ProFootballFocus. If you want to watch Skip and Stephen A. yell over eachother about Todd McShay's 38th Mock Draft, watch ESPN.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10245
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2019, 02:22:48 PM »
It's great fun...my conservative friends think I'm a bleeding heart liberal and my liberal friends think I'm a wingnut.
...even if youíre a fan of Donald Trump, you would have to see that says incredibly stupid, petty, and offensive things on almost a daily basis.
+1 to both.

wageslave23

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 601
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Illinois
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2019, 02:38:06 PM »
Not going to dive into specific issues for obvious reasons.  But in general, the reason politics is so divisive is ignorance.  It is much easier to say that my views mostly align with one party so instead of researching every issue, I will just default to the party view.  Then you subconsciously seek validation of your views by seeking like minded people which further solidifies your convictions.  Its crazy to think that your individual views would independently just happen to be exactly what another person or group believes in every situation.  But it takes a lot of work to think independently and most people are too lazy.  On any divisive issue, I try to understand where the other side is coming from by assuming they have a logical reason for having the opposing viewpoint.  I also assume that I am missing something until I do understand it.  That is very rare.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 02:59:15 PM by wageslave23 »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16237
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2019, 02:54:20 PM »
Regarding fox news, there are not a lot of good options for a conservative to get news from a TV show.

This is an interesting statement to make.

Why do you believe that it's important for a conservative to get different news than everyone else?




some things that are labeled "racist" are just things that people disagree with and not real racism

Can you explain (maybe with some examples) exactly what is and is not real racism?

Like, if I make a list:
- Paying someone less because of their race
- Wearing blackface at a party
- Banning people from Muslim countries from legally crossing into your own country (and referring to this as a 'Muslim ban')
- Marching in street carrying a Nazi flag, shouting that Jews and blacks must die
- Calling Mexican immigrants rapists, when crimes committed by immigrants are significantly lower than those committed by natural born Americans
- Calling your local (all white) high school sports team 'The Indians' and performing a tomahawk chop in the crowd while attending the game
- Crossing the street because you see a black guy
- Implementing laws that make it harder for minorities to vote
- Burning a cross on your lawn
- Repeatedly calling someone of Native ancestry 'Pocahontas', after being asked to stop by multiple native american groups
- Flying a confederate flag in front of your house
- Implementing drug laws and procedures that disproportionately impact people of color
- Calling African countries 'shithole countries'
- Punish illegal immigrants, but not the (mostly white) people who hire them
- Telling people that an American judge of Mexican ancestry is unable to preside over a case because of that ancestry
- Throwing someone's resume in the garbage because they have a stereotypically black name
- Lying about the citizenship of a well known black man, and manufacturing a whole birth certificate controversy

Could you tell me which things are "real racism" and which ones are not . . . maybe explaining your reasoning?

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10245
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 03:12:39 PM »
- Banning people from Muslim countries from legally crossing into your own country (and referring to this as a 'Muslim ban')
Not.

Because the country with the single largest population of Muslims (Indonesia) was not included.

jlcnuke

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2019, 03:13:59 PM »
Regarding fox news, there are not a lot of good options for a conservative to get news from a TV show.

This is an interesting statement to make.

Why do you believe that it's important for a conservative to get different news than everyone else?


I've always been of the opinion that if you're watching a news station because you like what they tell you, then you're getting your information from the wrong place unless the only news you watch is the "feel good story of the day" many seem to do these days. Informed discourse is what builds a society and we, the people, are making ourselves less and less informed by refusing to hear any side of an argument but the one we inherently like and/or are predisposed to believe, regardless of the slant it may be presented with or validity to what we're hearing. I think it's hurt us as a country personally.

I get my news from multiple sources from a variety of viewpoints, both domestic and international, and strive to determine what I think is the right position on any given issue after I've listened to the reasoning each point of view provides. As a result, I also find myself in a situation where:

Quote from: FINate
my conservative friends think I'm a bleeding heart liberal and my liberal friends think I'm a wingnut.

jlcnuke

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2019, 03:20:55 PM »
- Banning people from Muslim countries from legally crossing into your own country (and referring to this as a 'Muslim ban')
Not.

Because the country with the single largest population of Muslims (Indonesia) was not included.

Because his lawyers wouldn't allow it because they knew that would make it blatantly a violation of the 1st Amendment, so he settled. It's not because that isn't what he wanted to do.
Quote from: Donald Trump
Dec. 7, 2015: "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States "
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 03:25:15 PM by jlcnuke »

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2040
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2019, 03:22:31 PM »
I do wish that people could be a little less polarised in their views. I'm not saying they should change their political views, but they should be able to instinctively understand why another person takes a contrary view, without necessarily endorsing that contrary view.

I make my living by arguing points that I don't necessarily believe in, so I guess I have an advantage here in being able to change views as required.

My "true" views are very strongly libertarian, but almost no one I know shares my views, so I've gotten used to listening to other viewpoints and trying to understand why they may be right or at least more workable in theory than mine.

Boofinator

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1432
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2019, 03:31:13 PM »
Hey man, your rant is in good company: G-dub threw down a similar rant on political partisanship in his 1796 FU address.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10245
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2019, 03:32:01 PM »
Because his lawyers wouldn't allow it because they knew that would make it blatantly a violation of the 1st Amendment, so he settled. It's not because that isn't what he wanted to do.
Are we talking about what really happened or a thought crime?  If the latter, tip your hat to Orwell for his prescience.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2019, 03:35:09 PM »
Because his lawyers wouldn't allow it because they knew that would make it blatantly a violation of the 1st Amendment, so he settled. It's not because that isn't what he wanted to do.
Are we talking about what really happened or a thought crime?  If the latter, tip your hat to Orwell for his prescience.

Someone's statement of intent is perfectly in bounds when it comes to judging their character, regardless of whether they see that intent all the way through.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 03:39:56 PM by mathlete »

robartsd

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2964
  • Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2019, 03:44:13 PM »
Regarding fox news, there are not a lot of good options for a conservative to get news from a TV show.

This is an interesting statement to make.

Why do you believe that it's important for a conservative to get different news than everyone else?
I think many liberals fail to realize that there is a (slight) anti-conservative bias in mainstream TV news. Conservatives notice the bias and look for other sources. Of course I think @mathlete makes a good point about quality news source not being free (or bundled). There are plenty of examples of free fake news with strong bias on both sides.


some things that are labeled "racist" are just things that people disagree with and not real racism
- Banning people from Muslim countries from legally crossing into your own country (and referring to this as a 'Muslim ban')
- Implementing laws that make it harder for minorities to vote
- Nationality /= Race; Religion /= Race; (yes ban was discriminatory without being effective at placing a barrier to terrorism, but not strictly speaking racist)
- VoterID /= Racist (if you're talking Jim Crow, then yes that was racist)

CheapScholar

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 547
  • Location: The Midwest
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2019, 03:51:02 PM »
I get that the board leans very left.  Iím ok with that as a conservative.  Most of the people here are really smart and respectful.  Also, Iím not trying to be a part of an additional political fight on this board (I was in one last year and Iím over it).  Iíll just say to other conservatives and Trump fans that youíre not alone on this board.  Iím proud of my President!  I agree with Trump on virtually everything.  Many of you HATE having him be your President but for me everyday is Christmas.  America First!

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10245
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2019, 03:55:20 PM »
Someone's statement of intent is perfectly in bounds when it comes to judging their character, regardless of whether they see that intent all the way through.
No argument there.

It's somewhat ironic that PolitiFact claims Trump did not fulfill his "campaign promise": Trump-O-Meter: Establish a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. | PolitiFact


mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2019, 03:58:46 PM »
I think many liberals fail to realize that there is a (slight) anti-conservative bias in mainstream TV news. Conservatives notice the bias and look for other sources. Of course I think @mathlete makes a good point about quality news source not being free (or bundled). There are plenty of examples of free fake news with strong bias on both sides.

There is trash on both sides, but I find that with few exceptions, there is only good journalism on one side. And even this statement counts subscription newspapers and NPR as having a liberal bias. I think these sources are only biased in the sense that, for some reason, things like education, the written word, and fact based discourse have become thought of as "liberal".

The few exceptions I mentioned, would be outlets like the WSJ and The Economist. These are generally thought to have a slight conservative bias. This ain't where base conservatives turn for their news though.

- Nationality /= Race; Religion /= Race; (yes ban was discriminatory without being effective at placing a barrier to terrorism, but not strictly speaking racist)
- VoterID /= Racist (if you're talking Jim Crow, then yes that was racist)

In a friction-less vacuum, Voter ID is not racist. If you implement a law with the intent of keeping a certain race from voting under the guise of combating a bogeyman though, that's racist. Common sense tells us that this is what most implementations of Voter ID are about. But we don't even need common sense.  The North Carolina court decisions spell out for us that this is exactly what is going on when state legislatures push laws like this.

You're right on nationality and religion not being the same as race, but in this instance, I consider that a distinction without a difference.

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2019, 04:02:54 PM »
I appreciate the frustration in the original post. It does seem to me that people routinely argue to win rather than to understand and be understood. I know I've certainly been guilty of it (often).

You can't control what other people will do, but you can choose your own behavior. I've been trying a lot over the last few years to change how I approach things like this. Daniel Dennett has some very interesting things to say on arguing intelligently, including his four principles of engaging well in debate:

You should attempt to re-express your targetís position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, ďThanks, I wish Iíd thought of putting it that way.
You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

I also find much to be admired in the ideas of collaborative debate and radical kindness.

The following is not meant as an accusation in any way, @ericrugiero, just a prompt for further discussion--how do you approach disagreement? Are you as kind, open-minded, fair, generous, and collaborative as you can be?

runbikerun

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2019, 04:20:57 PM »
I get that the board leans very left.

It leans just barely left, to be honest. Publicly provided healthcare, low-cost tertiary education and social welfare programmes are regarded as pretty uncontroversial centre-ground policies across a huge swathe of the developed world. To me, reading in northern Europe, it comes across as mild right if anything. I have not seen a single American politician with any kind of public profile offer an economic policy proposal that an average centre-right European politician would consider unacceptable as a coalition demand from a leftist party. Because there are a number of non-American posters, this does have an impact: virtually every point of difference between American liberals and conservatives leaves the conservative side way off into crazypants territory for a lot of posters outside the States. And I know I sound like I'm exaggerating, but I'm genuinely not: conservative American politics is conducted according to a set of assumptions that western Europeans will, for better or worse, regard as fundamentally cruel and spiteful. I default on the liberal side in any kind of debate on this, because I come from a country where almost 70% of voters endorsed both equal marriage and the right to choose and where both of these referenda were instituted by what is historically the most aggressively conservative party in the country.

And speaking as someone from the outside: Trump has turned your country's international reputation into a colossal garbage fire. I don't think there's any way of explaining to someone on the inside just how catastrophic to American soft power the Trump presidency has been.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 04:26:58 PM by runbikerun »

Boofinator

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1432
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2019, 04:31:37 PM »

- Nationality /= Race; Religion /= Race; (yes ban was discriminatory without being effective at placing a barrier to terrorism, but not strictly speaking racist)
- VoterID /= Racist (if you're talking Jim Crow, then yes that was racist)

In a friction-less vacuum, Voter ID is not racist. If you implement a law with the intent of keeping a certain race from voting under the guise of combating a bogeyman though, that's racist. Common sense tells us that this is what most implementations of Voter ID are about. But we don't even need common sense.  The North Carolina court decisions spell out for us that this is exactly what is going on when state legislatures push laws like this.

You're right on nationality and religion not being the same as race, but in this instance, I consider that a distinction without a difference.

Immoral? Probably. Unconstitutional? Most definitely. Racist? That's a stretch. If a majority of black people voted Republican, would you consider it racist if politicians were illegally finagling votes in the opposite direction?

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2019, 04:47:34 PM »
- Nationality /= Race; Religion /= Race; (yes ban was discriminatory without being effective at placing a barrier to terrorism, but not strictly speaking racist)

Right, but we don't have a single word for "Religionist", and everyone knows what we're talking about. Saying something is "discriminatory but not strictly speaking racist" is quibbling over details and usually an attempt to avoid talking about the actual point.

- VoterID /= Racist (if you're talking Jim Crow, then yes that was racist)

Right. I live in NC, says so right there <-- in my user summary. The Republican NC legislature literally asked for statistics to be compiled on how people of different races vote (which type of ID they have, if they use early voting or not, etc) and then proceeded to make everything that benefited white voters legal and everything that benefited black voters illegal.

And sure, technically Trump's lies are about "Illegals voting in California", not "Latinos voting in California." But given that all credible research into the subject has found that voter fraud is extremely rare and not a real problem we all know what he really means. I mean FFS, Trump quietly shut down his own witch hunt into voter fraud because they weren't able to find anything.

Is saying "I think it makes sense to make people show ID to vote" racist? Of course not, and actually something I'd be 100% behind if the government mailed everyone a free ID that they could use. But if you look at the whole thing, from the manufacturing of this non-issue to the way it would be enforced to the areas where people claim it's happening, it's very clearly aimed at racist voter suppression. Not necessarily because the Republicans involved are "racists", but because they know most people-of-color would vote for Democrats. But the feelings behind the actions don't matter, the actions themselves are racist because they are aimed at suppressing the vote of people of other races. If you actually bother to look at factual evidence on the issue I don't see how anyone could come to any other conclusion.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 04:58:55 PM by sherr »

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2019, 04:51:19 PM »

- Nationality /= Race; Religion /= Race; (yes ban was discriminatory without being effective at placing a barrier to terrorism, but not strictly speaking racist)
- VoterID /= Racist (if you're talking Jim Crow, then yes that was racist)

In a friction-less vacuum, Voter ID is not racist. If you implement a law with the intent of keeping a certain race from voting under the guise of combating a bogeyman though, that's racist. Common sense tells us that this is what most implementations of Voter ID are about. But we don't even need common sense.  The North Carolina court decisions spell out for us that this is exactly what is going on when state legislatures push laws like this.

You're right on nationality and religion not being the same as race, but in this instance, I consider that a distinction without a difference.

Immoral? Probably. Unconstitutional? Most definitely. Racist? That's a stretch. If a majority of black people voted Republican, would you consider it racist if politicians were illegally finagling votes in the opposite direction?

Yes, I absolutely would consider it racist if Democrats were doing it in the other direction.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2019, 04:55:51 PM »
Immoral? Probably. Unconstitutional? Most definitely. Racist? That's a stretch. If a majority of black people voted Republican, would you consider it racist if politicians were illegally finagling votes in the opposite direction?

If the black franchise is a bargaining chip that you're willing to trade away in order to consolidate political power, I'm perfectly okay with calling that action racist

I certainly don't think such an exchange would fall under the OP's complaint of "racism = you said something I disagree with".

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2019, 05:16:44 PM »

Saying something is "discriminatory but not strictly speaking racist" is quibbling over details and usually an attempt to avoid talking about the actual point.


Your whole post was great, but I really wanted to single out this part.

This is my frustration with the centrist/independent community. (I'm not trying to lump robartsd in here, I truly don't know where they stand on anything)

Right: "We need to implement voting restrictions to stop illegal voting."

Left: "Okay, but you requested data on voting by race, and after getting that data, you made five new restrictions, all of which disproportionally affect black voters. That fact, combined with the fact that you have failed to demonstrate that illegal voting is a problem makes this an obvious and racist attempt at suppressing black voter turnout."

Independent: "You really shouldn't have used the word "racist" there. It's unfair to the conservatives. They don't want to suppress the black vote because they don't think blacks should be able to vote, they want to suppress the black vote because they don't like who they vote for. Big difference."

Then we all suck up air discussing an issue that should be easily settled by anyone who has looked at the evidence, and meanwhile, five more legislatures propose similar laws.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2587
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2019, 05:24:06 PM »
I have read some interesting sociological research that indicates the people that identify as more liberal and people who identify as more conservative tend to have very different moral values and priorities. 

For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Righteous_Mind

If that's true, then it makes sense that it would be extremely difficult for the groups to agree on practical policy (unless the policies can be viewed as accomplishing multiple types of ethical goals), or even to communicate with each other.  If you fundamentally disagree on your foundational moral priorities, then many of your proposed policies will be aiming to accomplish not just different outcomes, but different outcomes for different moral reasons.  And b/c moral and ethical foundations tend to be based more on emotional reasoning, logical arguments of each group against the other's positions not only fail to change opinions, but actually cause each group to view each other as inherently morally questionable and, thus, not even worthy of engaging with.

Also,  humans appear to be biologically wired for tribalism, which can appear on a scale as big as nationalism, or a scale as small as a family feud or group of strangers of one skin color uniting against a group of strangers of another skin color.

It's kind of amazing that societies function at all and we don't all kill each other, IMO.

AlexMar

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 262
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2019, 05:48:49 PM »
I get that the board leans very left.

It leans just barely left, to be honest. Publicly provided healthcare, low-cost tertiary education and social welfare programmes are regarded as pretty uncontroversial centre-ground policies across a huge swathe of the developed world. To me, reading in northern Europe, it comes across as mild right if anything. I have not seen a single American politician with any kind of public profile offer an economic policy proposal that an average centre-right European politician would consider unacceptable as a coalition demand from a leftist party. Because there are a number of non-American posters, this does have an impact: virtually every point of difference between American liberals and conservatives leaves the conservative side way off into crazypants territory for a lot of posters outside the States. And I know I sound like I'm exaggerating, but I'm genuinely not: conservative American politics is conducted according to a set of assumptions that western Europeans will, for better or worse, regard as fundamentally cruel and spiteful. I default on the liberal side in any kind of debate on this, because I come from a country where almost 70% of voters endorsed both equal marriage and the right to choose and where both of these referenda were instituted by what is historically the most aggressively conservative party in the country.

And speaking as someone from the outside: Trump has turned your country's international reputation into a colossal garbage fire. I don't think there's any way of explaining to someone on the inside just how catastrophic to American soft power the Trump presidency has been.

My family is European (Nordic).  They wouldn't agree with you at all.  I've found people there FAR more socially conservative than in the US.  Kind of funny, actually.  They are economically more liberal for sure, though.

Anyways, OP, it's a scientific fact that liberals are far more emotionally driven than conservatives. Which is why it's hard to discuss anything with them on a rational level.  They think too emotionally.  It's why it's difficult to have these discussions.  It's why they label everyone as racists, and really believe it.  They can't rationalize other points of view beyond their strict emotional disdain.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is becoming a real thing to the point it's flat out fascinating.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/11/141107091559.htm

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Location: MA
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2019, 06:16:49 PM »
Quote
Anyways, OP, it's a scientific fact that liberals are far more emotionally driven than conservatives. Which is why it's hard to discuss anything with them on a rational level.  They think too emotionally.  It's why it's difficult to have these discussions.  It's why they label everyone as racists, and really believe it.  They can't rationalize other points of view beyond their strict emotional disdain.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is becoming a real thing to the point it's flat out fascinating.

Thanks, that was a good laugh. 

Here is another article that backs up my perception of conservatives - they are fearful cowards.

https://www.insidescience.org/video/neurobiology-political-belief

Conservatives are more influenced by negative emotions and stimuli. They get disgusted easily, reacting stronger to ideas of impurity and disease.  They donít thoughtfully and logically think through their political views, they react out of fear and loathing.  This is why a con-man like trump is so appealing even though he is an obvious criminal.  He knows how to tap into that fear.

I do think liberals are more swayed by positive emotions and might be perceived as more mercurial, probably because they are more open to change and new ideas.  Even the word ďconservativeĒ implies that they are less open to novelty and cling to what makes them feel secure. 

See, isnít it awesome to be stereotyped? 




JZinCO

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 701
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2019, 06:19:45 PM »
  I occasionally get frustrated with comments in this forum but I'm frequently disappointed with comments from both liberals and conservatives elsewhere who don't seem to be able to see both sides of an issue and make logical arguments for why they believe what they do. So many comments (on facebook, twitter, tv, etc) are inflammatory and lack the logical arguments needed to change anyone's mind.

I'm not going to explain it for you (Because what do I know, I'm just some guy on a forum).

But I would HIGHLY recommend a few resources. They have helped me see that 1) political divides are driven by differences in values. 2) it gets dangerous when we start ascribing motivations to those we disagree with, 3)To paraphrase John Stuart Mill, the best way to know yourself and understand the world is to discuss your views with those that you disagree with most. That's why I love being right-leaning on a university campus. I'm not going to change other's opinions (though I have softened some hardliners); it's because, in the Socratic tradition, I get to better understand the world by grappling with viewpoints of those I disagree with.
Note: None of these resources can help you change society. I think they will help you think about society which is far more satisfying because it's you afterall that has to negotiate your place in it. Now I don't get whipped up into partisanship or the opposite, apathy/hopelessness.

resources:
JS Mill https://heterodoxacademy.org/mill/
Jonathan Haidt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOQduoLgRw
Arthur Brooks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87AEeLpodnE
Motive attribution assymetry drives intractable conflict https://www.pnas.org/content/111/44/15687
Your Morals quiz. This is similar to the big 5 quiz. Taking this with my ex helped elucidate why we had different political views. Knowing that helped us speak to our respective values when discussing a heated policy topic
https://www.yourmorals.org/



Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4061
  • Location: On my bike
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2019, 06:27:46 PM »
I get that the board leans very left.

It leans just barely left, to be honest. Publicly provided healthcare, low-cost tertiary education and social welfare programmes are regarded as pretty uncontroversial centre-ground policies across a huge swathe of the developed world. To me, reading in northern Europe, it comes across as mild right if anything. I have not seen a single American politician with any kind of public profile offer an economic policy proposal that an average centre-right European politician would consider unacceptable as a coalition demand from a leftist party. Because there are a number of non-American posters, this does have an impact: virtually every point of difference between American liberals and conservatives leaves the conservative side way off into crazypants territory for a lot of posters outside the States. And I know I sound like I'm exaggerating, but I'm genuinely not: conservative American politics is conducted according to a set of assumptions that western Europeans will, for better or worse, regard as fundamentally cruel and spiteful. I default on the liberal side in any kind of debate on this, because I come from a country where almost 70% of voters endorsed both equal marriage and the right to choose and where both of these referenda were instituted by what is historically the most aggressively conservative party in the country.

And speaking as someone from the outside: Trump has turned your country's international reputation into a colossal garbage fire. I don't think there's any way of explaining to someone on the inside just how catastrophic to American soft power the Trump presidency has been.

My family is European (Nordic).  They wouldn't agree with you at all.  I've found people there FAR more socially conservative than in the US.  Kind of funny, actually.  They are economically more liberal for sure, though.

Anyways, OP, it's a scientific fact that liberals are far more emotionally driven than conservatives. Which is why it's hard to discuss anything with them on a rational level.  They think too emotionally.  It's why it's difficult to have these discussions.  It's why they label everyone as racists, and really believe it.  They can't rationalize other points of view beyond their strict emotional disdain.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is becoming a real thing to the point it's flat out fascinating.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/11/141107091559.htm

Your link basically says that people on "the left" are more likely to show greater empathy whereas people on "the right" are more likely to exhibit less.  That's it.  So either you didn't read it, or you thought no one else would.  The rest of your "conclusions" are just stereotypical hogwash that you're using to make it seem like your team is better without actually having to have a real debate with any of the rational liberals on this thread.  Your claim of "scientific fact" is flat out laughable.

But yes, you should probably dismiss all of the guilty pleas and prison sentences handed down so far in the Mueller investigation as Trump Derangement Syndrome.  That's got to be much easier than admitting that your President is a Russian puppet and a traitor to his own country.  Denial ain't just a river in Egypt pal.

shenlong55

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2019, 06:40:49 PM »
It never ceases to amaze me how many conservatives think they can wage all-out, no holds barred political warfare against democrats for eight years and still expect comity, civility and an assumption of good intentions from liberals.  For fucks sake, your elected representatives STOLE a supreme court seat.  I don't believe there is a single conservative here who could honestly tell me that they would have found no problem with Harry Reid refusing to vote on George Bushes supreme court nominees for a year.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10245
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2019, 06:52:49 PM »
I don't believe there is a single conservative here who could honestly tell me that they would have found no problem with Harry Reid refusing to vote on George Bushes supreme court nominees for a year.
Probably ~the same as the number of liberals who could honestly tell you that they had no problem with McConnell's actions.

Neither the liberals nor the conservatives have the moral high ground when it comes to much political infighting.

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2019, 07:29:02 PM »
I came of age in the 1990s when Conservative and Liberals were generally much more willing to work with one another than today, so the current political environment is shocking and disturbing to me.

For all the nastiness in the 1990s with Bill Clinton cheating on Hillary and getting impeached by the House for it (which never really made much sense to me from a legal standpoint), the GOP was still willing to work with him on compromise legislation that allowed the government to function and made the economy keep humming along. Now, everybody on both sides of the aisle is completely unwilling to even listen to what the other side has to say about anything and forget compromise. Instead, we have both sides making ultimatums to each other and calling each other "Nazis" or "Communists". And ordinary people across the political spectrum are suffering for it as we saw during the recent government shutdown.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2019, 07:47:58 PM »
Man oh man these both-sides justification posts sure are something.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10245
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2019, 07:53:51 PM »
Man oh man these both-sides justification posts sure are something.
What, you think conservatives are all pure as the driven snow and liberals are evil incarnate?  I think not.... :)

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2019, 08:05:27 PM »
Man oh man these both-sides justification posts sure are something.
What, you think conservatives are all pure as the driven snow and liberals are evil incarnate?  I think not.... :)

"Both-sides" statements bother me because they often don't acknowledge that while both sides are "bad", one side is so much worse on several objective measures.

Watchmaker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2019, 08:31:25 PM »
Alright, but none of this back and forth is addressing the issue the OP brings up (it's just demonstrating the problem).

Anyways, OP, it's a scientific fact that liberals are far more emotionally driven than conservatives. Which is why it's hard to discuss anything with them on a rational level.  They think too emotionally.  It's why it's difficult to have these discussions.  It's why they label everyone as racists, and really believe it.  They can't rationalize other points of view beyond their strict emotional disdain.

@AlexMar - I'm probably what you'd consider a liberal. I also like to think of myself as pretty rational. I've never had someone comment that it's hard to discuss something with me (at least not to my face). I know you don't know me apart from what you could read in my earlier posts on this site, so maybe you just don't believe me. But do you think we could have a resepctful conversation about a contentious subject? I think we could.

And I don't think I'm anything special, so I think the same could be said about a lot of people you disagree with.

middo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
  • Location: Country Western Australia
  • Learning.
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2019, 08:39:37 PM »
From an Australian perspective, the extremes of the conservative fringe, and the left/green fringe have been kept at bay largely because of our compulsory voting system. 

It's hard to get elected on a base of 25% of the population when 87% of the population turns out and votes (91% of registered voters and an all time low last election).

It's also hard to get elected with extreme policies when the voting system is not first past the post.

Maybe electoral reform could help the US with the extremity of it's current political debate.

MaaS

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 239
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2019, 09:31:00 PM »
From an Australian perspective, the extremes of the conservative fringe, and the left/green fringe have been kept at bay largely because of our compulsory voting system. 

It's hard to get elected on a base of 25% of the population when 87% of the population turns out and votes (91% of registered voters and an all time low last election).

It's also hard to get elected with extreme policies when the voting system is not first past the post.

Maybe electoral reform could help the US with the extremity of it's current political debate.

I think the Australian voting system is fantastic in this way.  It'd be difficult to pass, but the US would benefit from this.  But, where we really need reform is our primary system. Now THAT is a joke. I tried explaining it to a couple Aussies once and they about laughed me out of the pub.

the_fixer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
  • Location: Colorado
  • mind on my money money on my mind
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2019, 09:34:50 PM »
Honestly I used to like this site much more prior to the last election cycle I get tired of the far right and far left leaning individuals fighting with each other and have seriously thought about deleting my account.

So many threads that could have been great have been taken over by people bickering about politics.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2019, 09:38:58 PM »
Alright, but none of this back and forth is addressing the issue the OP brings up (it's just demonstrating the problem).

Honestly, I don't really know how I feel about engaging with OP's issue, because I read it as a completely non-controversial statement that no one can disagree with, ("Why can't we get along?") but it is paired with a giant helping of ill-informed (at best) or disingenuous (at worst) statements. I feel like engaging with the first part can only be done in truisms ("Yes, we all should work harder to understand each other") that then go on to lead credibility to the ill-informed or disingenuous parts.

I'll expand on what I take issue with below:

Quote
"Right now, our media as a whole and many other people are so caught up in trashing Donald Trump and anyone they disagree with that we can't have a reasonable and open discussion without getting mad and defensive."

Donald Trump is an extremely petty, unfocused, egotistical individual who tells outlandish lies and picks fights with the media on a nearly daily basis. No one who pays any modicum of attention would disagree with this. It is extraordinarily disingenuous to hold his critics and the media responsible for the fact that honest political discourse is difficult. I cannot stress that enough. He tells not just run-of-the-mill political half truths, but massive lies that tear at the fabric of some of our most prized institutions. Like when he repeats over and over that 3 million people voted illegally. When 89% of Republicans approve of Trump (per the latest Gallup pole), it is hard not to come to the conclusion that conservatives just don't value honest political discourse very highly.

Quote

"It seems like racism has become a default accusation if you disagree with someone."

In the main, it is wrong to dismiss charges of racism from the left as code for, "I disagree". While there are certainly some people who will cry racism on everything and anything, most of the accusations that gain traction and attention stem from something that is demonstrably racist. For example:

- Congressman Steve King's white nationalist rhetoric has, until extremely recently, gone relatively unchallenged by his Republican colleagues
- The Republican legislature of NC used racial voting data to pass five voting restrictions that disproportionately made it harder for blacks to vote. This is a fairly non-controversial conclusion. It is the conclusion reached by the 4th circuit court, and the Supreme Court balked at hearing the appeal.
- President Donald Trump routinely referred to a natural born American judge as a "Mexican", and used his racial background to claim he couldn't give a fair ruling.
- Prior to the election, the President spread grossly inaccurate, anti black propaganda that cited completely made up statistics painting blacks as a menace to whites

The narrative that Republicans are behind on race relations did not materialize out of nowhere.

Quote
"(Obama) didn't do much of anything to reduce racism and help us be all one people (if anything, he was divisive)."

I disagree. The Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 reduced drug sentencing disparities that were legislated in the 1980s. His DoJ prioritized Federal prosecution of marijuana crimes. Bias in the judicial system and draconian drug laws are responsible for breaking up many black families and widening racial inequalities. Moves like that may take a while to show up, but they will show up eventually.

To the Trump administration's credit, they've shown willingness to do more on criminal justice reform as well.

The Obama DoJ also ordered a review of policing Ferguson Missouri, which exposed some really nasty stuff, and gave us all sorts of great data that can be used in the national discussion of police/race relations. 

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2019, 09:42:37 PM »
Honestly I used to like this site much more prior to the last election cycle I get tired of the far right and far left leaning individuals fighting with each other and have seriously thought about deleting my account.

So many threads that could have been great have been taken over by people bickering about politics.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Not enough bickering over whether it's better to rent or buy. Not enough bickering over the proper extent to which we can judge our coworkers for leasing a new car.

=)

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10245
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2019, 09:49:51 PM »
Man oh man these both-sides justification posts sure are something.
What, you think conservatives are all pure as the driven snow and liberals are evil incarnate?  I think not.... :)
"Both-sides" statements bother me because they often don't acknowledge that while both sides are "bad", one side is so much worse on several objective measures.
Asking people to acknowledge that their "side" is "so much worse" generally isn't an effective discussion technique.  For the most part, they wouldn't be on that side if they believed it to be worse.

Unfortunately, one person's objective truth is another's subjective belief.  One of the more interesting (at least to me - maybe I'm not being objective) questions in Myers Briggs test is "justice vs. mercy": I don't know how one determines which of those is objectively better.

Because people may bring different assumptions to any given issue, it's not surprising if they reach different conclusions.  It can a more interesting and even useful exercise to discuss the assumptions themselves. 

E.g., what assumptions one brings to a Voter ID discussion may be wildly different than another brings.  And whose assumptions are more grounded in reality may differ from state to state.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2019, 10:07:13 PM »
Asking people to acknowledge that their "side" is "so much worse" generally isn't an effective discussion technique.  For the most part, they wouldn't be on that side if they believed it to be worse.

Unfortunately, one person's objective truth is another's subjective belief.  One of the more interesting (at least to me - maybe I'm not being objective) questions in Myers Briggs test is "justice vs. mercy": I don't know how one determines which of those is objectively better.

Because people may bring different assumptions to any given issue, it's not surprising if they reach different conclusions.  It can a more interesting and even useful exercise to discuss the assumptions themselves. 

E.g., what assumptions one brings to a Voter ID discussion may be wildly different than another brings.  And whose assumptions are more grounded in reality may differ from state to state.

I respect that there are any number of issues on which there can be a reasonable range of disagreement. I don't like our gun culture in the United States, but if someone honestly prioritizes their right to responsibly own and use guns over the 30,000 lives that are lost to gun violence each year, I can't pass judgement on them. The constitution backs them up. I don't like it, and I can try to convince them otherwise, but I respect this as a reasonable disagreement.

Other topics, like voter fraud, are as close to an objective reality as we can get though. There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud. The President's claim that 3 million people voted illegally comes from literally fucking nowhere. His voter fraud commission unceremoniously disbanded, and he just threw out more vagueries and conspiracy theories.

So it drives me up a wall when "voter fraud" is still used to justify voting restrictions that are pretty clearly aimed at suppressing minority turnout. People believe what they believe for lots of reasons, but I would expect so-called independent observers to recognize the objective realities. Hence why "both-sides" bothers me so much.