Author Topic: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?  (Read 64585 times)

Watchmaker

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #850 on: March 22, 2019, 10:29:26 AM »
Steveo,

Thanks for continuing the conversation with me.

I know you dismiss the statistics as over-simplified, but I think if you spend some time talking to the professionals who actually do these kinds of studies, you'll find the vast majority of them are rigorous, fair-minded, and non-partisan. When their expertise gets filtered through non-expert media to non-expert laypeople, I agree that it is often misinterpreted, but that's got nothing to do with the underlying work.

I think most people conducting analyses have their heart in the right place but I do think it's common to identify with a cause. This can be a problem in that you can struggle to discuss issues rationally. A good example is why this thread was started.

Requiring 100% proof of a cause feels again like a way to avoid making hard choices. It is difficult in our complex world to prove anything completely, but scientists have demonstrated significant evidence of the various biases and cultural norms which act as a headwind for some and tailwind for others. In addition, huge numbers of people will testify that in their own life experience they have benefited from or been held back by these forces. No one claims the only cause is racism and no one claims every person who is poor is poor because of forces outside their control, we only claim that these forces *do* exist. And, going one step further, we claim there is a moral imperative to reduce or eliminate these forces.

The problem is changing things like stopping the war on drugs and reforming prisons is hard to do.

I'm Australian plus I'm apathetic mainly because fighting causes goes against my idea of how to build a good life. I should state though that in Australia we only just legalised gay marriage. I work with a couple of gay people and one was clearly pushing people to vote to legalise gay marriage. I was a little offended that he even spoke to me about it because I find it so fucken offensive that gay people can't get married. I told him as much as well. My wife is catholic and the church preaches against gay marriage. My wife and myself both voted for the change. I will vote for significant changes without a problem.

Reading these comments, I'm starting to understand your position differently.

To address your specific example: you're willing to support gay marriage with your vote when asked, but it sounds like you wouldn't do anything more than that, like stand up in church and argue for gay rights, or disassociate yourself from a church if it opposes gay marriage. And the same with aboriginals, and prison reform, etc. It kind of sounds like the difference between my position and yours is primarily that you just honestly don't care about some other people's problems enough to spend your resources (time, money, reputation, etc) to help. I have no problem with that if it's the case. A perfectly valid position to take. But if a goal of yours is to understand why the people on the left who annoy you are so strident about these issues -- consider that it's because they care about them more.

If I've got you wrong, please correct me. And I really don't mean any of that to be read as insulting. We all make choices about what we spend our energy on.

gentmach

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #851 on: March 22, 2019, 02:28:28 PM »
I think there is a general agitation because we know that our current system can't be sustained. So now we have two different views of the future and everyone thinks their view is the best.

I lean conservative because as technology becomes cheaper and more widely available it empowers individuals. This, however, fractures our traditional definitions of "left" and "right."

Under our two party system, we cannot easily accommodate these diversifying views. So the system oscillates between extremes.

I think increasing the number of Representatives would allow for more parties to have power, allow for a better reflection of the views of the populace which could vent the frustration.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #852 on: March 22, 2019, 04:17:08 PM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

Racism is still a problem, it may not be as obvious to you since we dont have slaves or segregation but it still exists and still affects people in their day to day life.

I have had bosses tell me they would never employ an Aboriginal person given the choice, I have family members who have recently refused to rent their property to people based on the colour of their skin, people being treated by police differently based on their ethnicity. Racism might not be government legislated like it was in the past but it definitely still exists.

This is tough. I see lots of aboriginal people (mainly sporting stars) absolutely adored. Jonathon Thurston for instance retired from rugby league last year. He was universally adored.

Why do people not employ Aboriginal people by choice ? Why won't your family members rent to these people ? Is it because they are Aboriginal or is it because they view certain scenarios as more risky to them ? Would they employ Chinese people ? Would they rent to Korean people ?

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #853 on: March 22, 2019, 04:25:48 PM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

I think this has been answered, but I also have seen first hand employers say they wouldn't hire an aboriginal as "the won't turn up Monday". Stereotypes take generations to change, and colour of skin cannot be hidden.  Aboriginals in Australia are still systematically discriminated against, just not by government policy.

They also receive lots of positive discrimination. They can enter university with lower marks. A common question when applying for jobs is are you Aboriginal because lots of companies want to employ Aboriginal people ? My friend is married to an Aboriginal. She has a job in Aboriginal relations or something like that.

There are lots of opportunities for Aboriginal people in Australia. I agree that statistically they still really struggle and for instance deaths in custody is a tragic occurrence.

I don't see racism though. I see cultural issues that are really hard to handle. I also see a lot that is already being done. What else can be done ?

nnls

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #854 on: March 22, 2019, 04:31:38 PM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

Racism is still a problem, it may not be as obvious to you since we dont have slaves or segregation but it still exists and still affects people in their day to day life.

I have had bosses tell me they would never employ an Aboriginal person given the choice, I have family members who have recently refused to rent their property to people based on the colour of their skin, people being treated by police differently based on their ethnicity. Racism might not be government legislated like it was in the past but it definitely still exists.

This is tough. I see lots of aboriginal people (mainly sporting stars) absolutely adored. Jonathon Thurston for instance retired from rugby league last year. He was universally adored.

Why do people not employ Aboriginal people by choice ? Why won't your family members rent to these people ? Is it because they are Aboriginal or is it because they view certain scenarios as more risky to them ? Would they employ Chinese people ? Would they rent to Korean people ?

Yes sporting stars are adored but not Aboriginal people in the general population.

My family member wont rent to any "non-white" person because she is racist

Some people wont employ Aboriginal people because they believe negative stereotypes about Aboriginal people being lazy or stupid because they are racist. This is what I was saying about racism still affects society.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #855 on: March 22, 2019, 04:36:51 PM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

Ah, okay. Thank you for restating. I accept that you believe racism (I'm assuming both institutionalized and individual prejudice/bias) is fading away and is not a factor in black poverty.

Yet, upthread we had a discussion where you seemed to agree that black poverty is, at least partially, something that is imposed on black communities from an outside source. What do you think those forces are?

I ask you without preconception. I'm not trying to force you into a corner. I truly, sincerely would like an answer. And I beg you to respond more deeply than 'it's complicated'. I agree we'll probably never find all the causal factors, but the top 1 or 2, please! I also beg you not to divert into explaining what might be done to fix the complication, or explaining why racism is no longer valid. I've accepted that you don't believe in racism, and I agree with your theories on how to start move forward - ending the war on drugs, etc.

Please, for all that is merciful, what do you think is causing the complication?

edit: wording

It's cultural. The vast majority of the problem is cultural and it's a self-perpetuating cycle. Poverty breeds poverty. If your role models are drug dealers or people who just get drunk and do nothing and the outlier is the person who knuckles down, works hard and saves and is ridiculed for it then it's tough.

I can just picture smart young black men seeing a couple of ways out of their current situation:-

1. Sport
2. Drug dealing

They could be smart but struggle going to school for instance.

It's the same thing as why Trump and his kids have done so well. Is Trump smart ? I know he is hated but objectively is he smart ? I don't think he is. He has been given every opportunity in the world. My dad was a doctor. I was never given the same opportunities that Trump and his children have been given. Can you imagine being born smarter than Trump but in an environment that is tough. There is a American-Mexican mma fighter and I remember him stating how dysfunctional his childhood was. His parents went to work earning a pittance and he ran wild. How is someone in that environment going to excel via the way the vast majority of people excel - i.e. getting a decent job and grinding it out.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #856 on: March 22, 2019, 04:42:06 PM »
The end of religion is the only solution for this conflict.

This kills me. Okay - let's go out and exterminate all those religious people.

Don't get me wrong I have an aversion to lots of aspects of religion. Religion offers no consolation to me at all. People though have the right to believe what they want to believe and you can't eradicate it. That is wrong.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #857 on: March 22, 2019, 04:47:54 PM »
It is difficult in our complex world to prove anything completely, but scientists have demonstrated significant evidence of the various biases and cultural norms which act as a headwind for some and tailwind for others.

This is better. Let's not call it racism though.

In addition, huge numbers of people will testify that in their own life experience they have benefited from or been held back by these forces. No one claims the only cause is racism and no one claims every person who is poor is poor because of forces outside their control, we only claim that these forces *do* exist. And, going one step further, we claim there is a moral imperative to reduce or eliminate these forces.

The moral imperative is the hard part especially what actions can be taken. I've listed some that can occur that make sense.

People will have to pull themselves up. They just will have too. The world is tough.

To address your specific example: you're willing to support gay marriage with your vote when asked, but it sounds like you wouldn't do anything more than that, like stand up in church and argue for gay rights, or disassociate yourself from a church if it opposes gay marriage. And the same with aboriginals, and prison reform, etc. It kind of sounds like the difference between my position and yours is primarily that you just honestly don't care about some other people's problems enough to spend your resources (time, money, reputation, etc) to help. I have no problem with that if it's the case. A perfectly valid position to take. But if a goal of yours is to understand why the people on the left who annoy you are so strident about these issues -- consider that it's because they care about them more.

If I've got you wrong, please correct me. And I really don't mean any of that to be read as insulting. We all make choices about what we spend our energy on.

You have me a little wrong here but you have a good point. I will stand up for gay rights, for the war on drugs but I'm not going to become too political. I'm not really taking offence.

My problem with some people on the left is that they scream racist or misogynist or some other derogatory label and they simplify issues. They seem to make it all so one sided when it's not. Calm constructive action with realistic expectations are in my opinion a much better way of approaching difficult issues including social issues.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #858 on: March 22, 2019, 04:58:12 PM »
I think there is a general agitation because we know that our current system can't be sustained. So now we have two different views of the future and everyone thinks their view is the best.

I lean conservative because as technology becomes cheaper and more widely available it empowers individuals. This, however, fractures our traditional definitions of "left" and "right."

Under our two party system, we cannot easily accommodate these diversifying views. So the system oscillates between extremes.

I think increasing the number of Representatives would allow for more parties to have power, allow for a better reflection of the views of the populace which could vent the frustration.

I think that there is also a question of what can government/society do. My take is a lot can change but geez it's hard. The hard part is a fair concern. I wish constructive change could happen quicker. At some point though I believe people have to look at their situation and state I need to change my life. It might be tough. You might only be able to do so much but maybe your kids or nephews or nieces or whatever will do better. My belief is that society can support positive change in these situations but that is it.

I do think that a lot of people simply don't have the emotional maturity or intelligence to see the complexity of difficult situations and therefore their only response is to become extreme and tribal. A good example is Americans who love their guns. You cannot have a rational discussion with these people. It's a simple statement of I have a right to bear arms and then the crazy excuses come out. I know good people that are like this. There is a similar scenario when discussing other issues such as black poverty when certain people can only state it's racist. Look at the argument above about having to eradicate religion. It's a totalitarian viewpoint.

I agree that it's not a left vs right discussion. It's an extremist way to discuss issues and the extremists are on the left and right.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 05:08:41 PM by steveo »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #859 on: March 22, 2019, 05:06:29 PM »
My family member wont rent to any "non-white" person because she is racist

This is racism. It's easy to call out when it's clear cut.

Some people wont employ Aboriginal people because they believe negative stereotypes about Aboriginal people being lazy or stupid because they are racist. This is what I was saying about racism still affects society.

This is tough. Okay - you are right but what is the extend of this. I made a comment earlier in the thread about people being able to differentiate between black people bought up in wealthier environments compared to poor environments. Is that racism ? I don't think so. It's not the colour of their skin that is an issue. It's a risk assessment.

I'm Australian and your comments here though are sounding more than a little exaggerated. Admittedly I live in Sydney but I've experienced racist people (two families in my area) very rarely in my entire life. On top of that one of those families were complex. One of the kids best friends was Fillipino. That family had a history of mental illnesses.

Australia is now very much a multi-cultural society. I have jokes made about me because I'm white.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 05:11:32 PM by steveo »

marty998

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #860 on: March 22, 2019, 05:29:13 PM »
My family member wont rent to any "non-white" person because she is racist

This is racism. It's easy to call out when it's clear cut.

Some people wont employ Aboriginal people because they believe negative stereotypes about Aboriginal people being lazy or stupid because they are racist. This is what I was saying about racism still affects society.

This is tough. Okay - you are right but what is the extend of this. I made a comment earlier in the thread about people being able to differentiate between black people bought up in wealthier environments compared to poor environments. Is that racism ? I don't think so. It's not the colour of their skin that is an issue. It's a risk assessment.

I'm Australian and your comments here though are sounding more than a little exaggerated. Admittedly I live in Sydney but I've experienced racist people (two families in my area) very rarely in my entire life. On top of that one of those families were complex. One of the kids best friends was Fillipino. That family had a history of mental illnesses.

Australia is now very much a multi-cultural society. I have jokes made about me because I'm white.

Calling out racism is not going to stop the racist from being racist. A certain Queensland politician has been called out for 22 years now and look where that has got us.

I can only surmise the best thing to do would be to deprive them of a platform / media oxygen. For every other non-public racist, tell them to put their money where their mouth is and not order takeaway anymore. See how much longer they hold their views :)

I love that in this country you can walk down any main street and sample Thai, Greek, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Italian, Mexican or Indonesian. Even New York style diners are gaining popularity. You then go to an Irish pub and finish with a Lebanese Kebab.

Ironically, the only thing we don't have is British food. I wonder why lol.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #861 on: March 22, 2019, 05:48:04 PM »
Steveo, I'm starting to believe you have no idea what you're actually trying to communicate. The bolded in particular is giving me quite a mindfuck.

I've tried to explain this a fair few times. I'll try again. Historically there would have been a significantly higher number of racist people. That has now changed. So in the past racism might have been an issue but it's not today.

You can't state that the problem today is due to racism because it's not. There might be left over problems from historical racism but it's not a significant factor today.

Ah, okay. Thank you for restating. I accept that you believe racism (I'm assuming both institutionalized and individual prejudice/bias) is fading away and is not a factor in black poverty.

Yet, upthread we had a discussion where you seemed to agree that black poverty is, at least partially, something that is imposed on black communities from an outside source. What do you think those forces are?

I ask you without preconception. I'm not trying to force you into a corner. I truly, sincerely would like an answer. And I beg you to respond more deeply than 'it's complicated'. I agree we'll probably never find all the causal factors, but the top 1 or 2, please! I also beg you not to divert into explaining what might be done to fix the complication, or explaining why racism is no longer valid. I've accepted that you don't believe in racism, and I agree with your theories on how to start move forward - ending the war on drugs, etc.

Please, for all that is merciful, what do you think is causing the complication?

edit: wording

It's cultural. The vast majority of the problem is cultural and it's a self-perpetuating cycle. Poverty breeds poverty. If your role models are drug dealers or people who just get drunk and do nothing and the outlier is the person who knuckles down, works hard and saves and is ridiculed for it then it's tough.

I can just picture smart young black men seeing a couple of ways out of their current situation:-

1. Sport
2. Drug dealing

They could be smart but struggle going to school for instance.

It's the same thing as why Trump and his kids have done so well. Is Trump smart ? I know he is hated but objectively is he smart ? I don't think he is. He has been given every opportunity in the world. My dad was a doctor. I was never given the same opportunities that Trump and his children have been given. Can you imagine being born smarter than Trump but in an environment that is tough. There is a American-Mexican mma fighter and I remember him stating how dysfunctional his childhood was. His parents went to work earning a pittance and he ran wild. How is someone in that environment going to excel via the way the vast majority of people excel - i.e. getting a decent job and grinding it out.

I think I'm following. Your response seems to state two things:

1. Current black poverty is caused by the previous generation's poverty, due to the cycle of disfunction. Dysfunctional childhoods create adults and role models that give the next generation dysfunction childhoods, which creates adults and role models that give the third generation dysfunctional childhoods.

2. The disfunction of each individual combine together to create a culture that is collectively dysfunctional. There is no outside force pushing people down. Instead black poverty is the effect of the whole community unwittingly holding each other down, like the classic allegory of lobsters in a pot clutching at each other.

Have I got your theories correct?

nnls

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #862 on: March 22, 2019, 05:55:41 PM »
My family member wont rent to any "non-white" person because she is racist

This is racism. It's easy to call out when it's clear cut.

Some people wont employ Aboriginal people because they believe negative stereotypes about Aboriginal people being lazy or stupid because they are racist. This is what I was saying about racism still affects society.

This is tough. Okay - you are right but what is the extend of this. I made a comment earlier in the thread about people being able to differentiate between black people bought up in wealthier environments compared to poor environments. Is that racism ? I don't think so. It's not the colour of their skin that is an issue. It's a risk assessment.

I'm Australian and your comments here though are sounding more than a little exaggerated. Admittedly I live in Sydney but I've experienced racist people (two families in my area) very rarely in my entire life. On top of that one of those families were complex. One of the kids best friends was Fillipino. That family had a history of mental illnesses.

Australia is now very much a multi-cultural society. I have jokes made about me because I'm white.

Its nice that as a white person in Australia you think there is no racism. But you are wrong. I am not white and I can tell you that I experience racism and microaggressions here all the time. I am not disagreeing that Australia is multicultural and that its a lot better than it was in 1960s and 1900s and 1850s, we are getting better as a society.  (I live in Western Australia, so maybe Sydney is a magical place with no racism and its just different over here)

I get what you are saying about growing up in poverty increases your chances of staying poor and not having positive role models makes it harder. But the fact that you have these smart kids who want to try and do better and then get turned down for jobs or opportunities based on how they look is racism. Racism might not be the only thing keeping people poor or increasing their chances of not being believed by cops or getting poorer treatment in hospitals but it is still a factor.

gentmach

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #863 on: March 22, 2019, 06:13:53 PM »
I think there is a general agitation because we know that our current system can't be sustained. So now we have two different views of the future and everyone thinks their view is the best.

I lean conservative because as technology becomes cheaper and more widely available it empowers individuals. This, however, fractures our traditional definitions of "left" and "right."

Under our two party system, we cannot easily accommodate these diversifying views. So the system oscillates between extremes.

I think increasing the number of Representatives would allow for more parties to have power, allow for a better reflection of the views of the populace which could vent the frustration.

I think that there is also a question of what can government/society do. My take is a lot can change but geez it's hard. The hard part is a fair concern. I wish constructive change could happen quicker. At some point though I believe people have to look at their situation and state I need to change my life. It might be tough. You might only be able to do so much but maybe your kids or nephews or nieces or whatever will do better. My belief is that society can support positive change in these situations but that is it.

I do think that a lot of people simply don't have the emotional maturity or intelligence to see the complexity of difficult situations and therefore their only response is to become extreme and tribal. A good example is Americans who love their guns. You cannot have a rational discussion with these people. It's a simple statement of I have a right to bear arms and then the crazy excuses come out. I know good people that are like this. There is a similar scenario when discussing other issues such as black poverty when certain people can only state it's racist. Look at the argument above about having to eradicate religion. It's a totalitarian viewpoint.

I agree that it's not a left vs right discussion. It's an extremist way to discuss issues and the extremists are on the left and right.

I think it has a lot to do with how the problem is framed.

The problem I have with the gun control debate is the Maker Movement. If we give people access to industrial grade machine tools, would we be able to stop them from making gun parts? Would you make the problem worse since these guns won't have serial numbers? What happens if lone shooters increase in sophistication because they learned all the tech that is readily available? (I.E. kamikaze drones) Or if people start working together?

The racism stuff I'm on the fence about. On the one hand, some personal responsibility is required. On the other, I'm watching The Nature Conservancy slowly and systematically dismantle two poor black communities tax base. (Nature Conservancy razes all man-made improvements lowering the tax value, which in turn defunds schools and infrastructure, which decreases desirability of the area, which opens more property to the Nature Conservancy.) I can see the system as being rigged.

I agree with you that it is up to individuals more than the state, the state being a reflection of the people. But you have to get to care again.

marty998

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #864 on: March 22, 2019, 07:08:54 PM »
My family member wont rent to any "non-white" person because she is racist

This is racism. It's easy to call out when it's clear cut.

Some people wont employ Aboriginal people because they believe negative stereotypes about Aboriginal people being lazy or stupid because they are racist. This is what I was saying about racism still affects society.

This is tough. Okay - you are right but what is the extend of this. I made a comment earlier in the thread about people being able to differentiate between black people bought up in wealthier environments compared to poor environments. Is that racism ? I don't think so. It's not the colour of their skin that is an issue. It's a risk assessment.

I'm Australian and your comments here though are sounding more than a little exaggerated. Admittedly I live in Sydney but I've experienced racist people (two families in my area) very rarely in my entire life. On top of that one of those families were complex. One of the kids best friends was Fillipino. That family had a history of mental illnesses.

Australia is now very much a multi-cultural society. I have jokes made about me because I'm white.

Its nice that as a white person in Australia you think there is no racism. But you are wrong. I am not white and I can tell you that I experience racism and microaggressions here all the time. I am not disagreeing that Australia is multicultural and that its a lot better than it was in 1960s and 1900s and 1850s, we are getting better as a society.  (I live in Western Australia, so maybe Sydney is a magical place with no racism and its just different over here)

I get what you are saying about growing up in poverty increases your chances of staying poor and not having positive role models makes it harder. But the fact that you have these smart kids who want to try and do better and then get turned down for jobs or opportunities based on how they look is racism. Racism might not be the only thing keeping people poor or increasing their chances of not being believed by cops or getting poorer treatment in hospitals but it is still a factor.

Sydney is no different - the racism is still there. Especially when it comes to employment.

There was even a high profile case yesterday of Opera Australia being taken to task for casting a blonde girl as the lead woman in a production of West Side Story, instead of someone from Latina heritage.

https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/life/culture/article/2018/07/16/comment-its-time-whitewashing-west-side-story-stop

Closer to home, I have worked for a boss who would only hire white anglos. If you were Asian, or had brown skin, (never mind being a woman), you just weren't going to get a look in. Such people still exist unfortunately, and they don't recognise there's a problem because they and their peers benefit from or are not disadvantaged by it.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #865 on: March 22, 2019, 07:27:56 PM »
I think I'm following. Your response seems to state two things:

1. Current black poverty is caused by the previous generation's poverty, due to the cycle of disfunction. Dysfunctional childhoods create adults and role models that give the next generation dysfunction childhoods, which creates adults and role models that give the third generation dysfunctional childhoods.

2. The disfunction of each individual combine together to create a culture that is collectively dysfunctional. There is no outside force pushing people down. Instead black poverty is the effect of the whole community unwittingly holding each other down, like the classic allegory of lobsters in a pot clutching at each other.

Have I got your theories correct?

Basically - I think that these are far and away the most important factors. It's an overall thing as well. I bet some people rise above it even though it's tough. This doesn't mean that they are bad people. It's just a bad environment and it's hard to fix it. Calling it racism is in my opinion completely missing the point.

I don't think every individual person is dysfunctional in that environment. There is a relatively famous Australian Aboriginal actor. I think he has something like 10 brothers and sisters with each one having a different dad. This story may be exaggerated a little. This guy has done well for himself though.

Kris

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #866 on: March 22, 2019, 07:30:13 PM »
I can point to an Aboriginal person. He made a success of himself.

That makes me feel better, so I no longer have to think about it.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #867 on: March 22, 2019, 07:39:04 PM »
Its nice that as a white person in Australia you think there is no racism. But you are wrong. I am not white and I can tell you that I experience racism and microaggressions here all the time. I am not disagreeing that Australia is multicultural and that its a lot better than it was in 1960s and 1900s and 1850s, we are getting better as a society.  (I live in Western Australia, so maybe Sydney is a magical place with no racism and its just different over here)

I get what you are saying about growing up in poverty increases your chances of staying poor and not having positive role models makes it harder. But the fact that you have these smart kids who want to try and do better and then get turned down for jobs or opportunities based on how they look is racism. Racism might not be the only thing keeping people poor or increasing their chances of not being believed by cops or getting poorer treatment in hospitals but it is still a factor.

My wife isn't white. My kids are clearly not white. I have a tonne of friends of different nationalities. I disagree with your point about racism holding smart kids back. Smart kids who work hard and have good attitudes will do well in Australia. They will not be held back based on the colour of their skin. Making out that me as a white person is somehow stating something trite about racism is pretty funny.

Of course we could state racism is occurring because the vast majority of upcoming medical practitioners are either Asian or Indian. My dad was a doctor. I think the days of white doctors being prevalent are over. Are Asians and Indians smarter than white people ? I don't think so. They just work hard. They have a culture that encourages academic success.

Maybe Perth is different to Sydney but in Sydney I don't see racism occurring at all. We are a multi-cultural society and I really find it a bit offensive that anyone would make out racism is a significant factor in our society. In my life I've experienced two racist families and like I stated above one of those families couldn't really live their racist values.

I should add that I'm not stating racism doesn't occur. I'm stating racism today is not a significant factor in the problems within disadvantaged communities.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 07:58:45 PM by steveo »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #868 on: March 22, 2019, 07:43:55 PM »
Calling out racism is not going to stop the racist from being racist. A certain Queensland politician has been called out for 22 years now and look where that has got us.

I can only surmise the best thing to do would be to deprive them of a platform / media oxygen. For every other non-public racist, tell them to put their money where their mouth is and not order takeaway anymore. See how much longer they hold their views :)

I love that in this country you can walk down any main street and sample Thai, Greek, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Italian, Mexican or Indonesian. Even New York style diners are gaining popularity. You then go to an Irish pub and finish with a Lebanese Kebab.

Ironically, the only thing we don't have is British food. I wonder why lol.

Are you talking about Pauline Hanson ? I assume so but this is where I think you have to be careful. I've seen Asian supporters of Pauline Hanson. People get scared about too much immigration and specifically the effect on for instance over crowding in our cities.

We are multi-cultural. I remember years ago my mum cooking food with chili. It was unheard of. Now everyone cooks with chili. The cook from consuming passions on TV said when he got here the food was terrible. Now it's unreal.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #869 on: March 22, 2019, 07:51:34 PM »
The racism stuff I'm on the fence about. On the one hand, some personal responsibility is required. On the other, I'm watching The Nature Conservancy slowly and systematically dismantle two poor black communities tax base. (Nature Conservancy razes all man-made improvements lowering the tax value, which in turn defunds schools and infrastructure, which decreases desirability of the area, which opens more property to the Nature Conservancy.) I can see the system as being rigged.

I agree with you that it is up to individuals more than the state, the state being a reflection of the people. But you have to get to care again.

These issues are the ones I'd like to see fixed. You could even frame it differently. You could state something like we want to help support communities so that people of all backgrounds can excel. You can help provide positive support.

At the end of the day though individuals have to take action and we don't get to tell them to do that.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #870 on: March 22, 2019, 07:52:10 PM »
I think I'm following. Your response seems to state two things:

1. Current black poverty is caused by the previous generation's poverty, due to the cycle of disfunction. Dysfunctional childhoods create adults and role models that give the next generation dysfunction childhoods, which creates adults and role models that give the third generation dysfunctional childhoods.

2. The disfunction of each individual combine together to create a culture that is collectively dysfunctional. There is no outside force pushing people down. Instead black poverty is the effect of the whole community unwittingly holding each other down, like the classic allegory of lobsters in a pot clutching at each other.

Have I got your theories correct?

Basically - I think that these are far and away the most important factors. It's an overall thing as well. I bet some people rise above it even though it's tough. This doesn't mean that they are bad people. It's just a bad environment and it's hard to fix it. Calling it racism is in my opinion completely missing the point.

I don't think every individual person is dysfunctional in that environment. There is a relatively famous Australian Aboriginal actor. I think he has something like 10 brothers and sisters with each one having a different dad. This story may be exaggerated a little. This guy has done well for himself though.

One final check of understanding. Overachingly you believe that sub-communities found within successful nations that are stricken by poverty are inflicting that poverty upon themselves? That any potential exo-community influences are so small they can successfully be discounted as trace issues?

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #871 on: March 22, 2019, 07:53:44 PM »
I can point to an Aboriginal person. He made a success of himself.

That makes me feel better, so I no longer have to think about it.

I'm a tribal leftist and I can't discuss issues in any detail. I just throw ad-hominen irrational comments at others because I am emotionally immature and just want to rant and rage.

Kris

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #872 on: March 22, 2019, 07:56:35 PM »
I can point to an Aboriginal person. He made a success of himself.

That makes me feel better, so I no longer have to think about it.

I'm a tribal leftist and I can't discuss issues in any detail. I just throw ad-hominen irrational comments at others because I am emotionally immature and just want to rant and rage.

I don’t know what ad hominem means.

But it makes me feel better to believe that I do.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #873 on: March 22, 2019, 08:02:04 PM »
One final check of understanding. Overachingly you believe that sub-communities found within successful nations that are stricken by poverty are inflicting that poverty upon themselves? That any potential exo-community influences are so small they can successfully be discounted as trace issues?

Basically yes. I think you are being a bit disingenuous but I'll flip your comments a bit to make a point. I just mentioned how people graduating with medical degrees are predominantly Asian or Indian in Australia. Is this racism ? If is isn't what is it ?

We can do things to help poorer communities and we should but geez people succeed all the time from disadvantaged backgrounds. Brains and hard work will get you far in life.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #874 on: March 22, 2019, 08:04:37 PM »
I can point to an Aboriginal person. He made a success of himself.

That makes me feel better, so I no longer have to think about it.

I'm a tribal leftist and I can't discuss issues in any detail. I just throw ad-hominen irrational comments at others because I am emotionally immature and just want to rant and rage.

I don’t know what ad hominem means.

But it makes me feel better to believe that I do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

A simple way to explain this is arguing against the person rather than against their argument. It's a technique you use because you can't discuss the issue logically and rationally.

Kris

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #875 on: March 22, 2019, 08:09:03 PM »
I can point to an Aboriginal person. He made a success of himself.

That makes me feel better, so I no longer have to think about it.

I'm a tribal leftist and I can't discuss issues in any detail. I just throw ad-hominen irrational comments at others because I am emotionally immature and just want to rant and rage.

I don’t know what ad hominem means.

But it makes me feel better to believe that I do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

A simple way to explain this is arguing against the person rather than against their argument. It's a technique you use because you can't discuss the issue logically and rationally.

And yet, I was arguing against the argument.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #876 on: March 22, 2019, 08:19:59 PM »
One final check of understanding. Overachingly you believe that sub-communities found within successful nations that are stricken by poverty are inflicting that poverty upon themselves? That any potential exo-community influences are so small they can successfully be discounted as trace issues?

Basically yes. I think you are being a bit disingenuous but I'll flip your comments a bit to make a point. I just mentioned how people graduating with medical degrees are predominantly Asian or Indian in Australia. Is this racism ? If is isn't what is it ?

We can do things to help poorer communities and we should but geez people succeed all the time from disadvantaged backgrounds. Brains and hard work will get you far in life.

I wasn't being disingenuous. A common premise of leadership is to restate what someone is telling you, to ensure understanding. I was trying to understand you. Based on our conversation I'm pretty comfortable deciding that you are not trolling. I've also reversed my original accusation of gaslighting, and downgrading to difficulty with articulation.

Maybe someday you'll experience a life event that will change your current level of empathy. Maybe you won't. Either way, your personal evolution isn't my responsibility.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #877 on: March 22, 2019, 08:24:14 PM »
One final check of understanding. Overachingly you believe that sub-communities found within successful nations that are stricken by poverty are inflicting that poverty upon themselves? That any potential exo-community influences are so small they can successfully be discounted as trace issues?

Basically yes. I think you are being a bit disingenuous but I'll flip your comments a bit to make a point. I just mentioned how people graduating with medical degrees are predominantly Asian or Indian in Australia. Is this racism ? If is isn't what is it ?

We can do things to help poorer communities and we should but geez people succeed all the time from disadvantaged backgrounds. Brains and hard work will get you far in life.

I wasn't being disingenuous. A common premise of leadership is to restate what someone is telling you, to ensure understanding. I was trying to understand you. Based on our conversation I'm pretty comfortable deciding that you are not trolling. I've also reversed my original accusation of gaslighting, and downgrading to difficulty with articulation.

Maybe someday you'll experience a life event that will change your current level of empathy. Maybe you won't. Either way, your personal evolution isn't my responsibility.

I'd be interest in your comment to my point regarding the racial grouping of doctors in Australia. It's an interesting point.

I will state that I have a lot of empathy for individual people. I don't think the people crying out about racist have empathy for individual people. I think it's a cause.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #878 on: March 22, 2019, 08:26:40 PM »
I can point to an Aboriginal person. He made a success of himself.

That makes me feel better, so I no longer have to think about it.

I'm a tribal leftist and I can't discuss issues in any detail. I just throw ad-hominen irrational comments at others because I am emotionally immature and just want to rant and rage.

I don’t know what ad hominem means.

But it makes me feel better to believe that I do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

A simple way to explain this is arguing against the person rather than against their argument. It's a technique you use because you can't discuss the issue logically and rationally.

And yet, I was arguing against the argument.

No you weren't. It was at best an irrational simplistic argument. It's clear that at this point this issue is to complex for you to think about. It's just a tribal issue. There is no point discussing this with you because it's like discussing a sporting team against another sporting team and in particular which team you support. You currently can't discuss the issue in any detail.

If you choose to engage in a mature fashion I'm happy to engage but I'm not responding to your childish comments anymore.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 08:29:02 PM by steveo »

Kris

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #879 on: March 22, 2019, 08:30:35 PM »
I can point to an Aboriginal person. He made a success of himself.

That makes me feel better, so I no longer have to think about it.

I'm a tribal leftist and I can't discuss issues in any detail. I just throw ad-hominen irrational comments at others because I am emotionally immature and just want to rant and rage.

I don’t know what ad hominem means.

But it makes me feel better to believe that I do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

A simple way to explain this is arguing against the person rather than against their argument. It's a technique you use because you can't discuss the issue logically and rationally.

And yet, I was arguing against the argument.

No you weren't. It was at best an irrational simplistic argument. It's clear that at this point this issue is to complex for you to think about. It's just a tribal issue. There is no point discussing this with you because it's like discussing a sporting team against another sporting team and in particular which team you support. You currently can't discuss the issue in any detail.

If you choose to engage in a mature fashion I'm happy to engage but I'm not responding to your childish comments anymore.

Look at all the ad hominem.

pbkmaine

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #880 on: March 22, 2019, 08:44:10 PM »
I can point to an Aboriginal person. He made a success of himself.

That makes me feel better, so I no longer have to think about it.

I'm a tribal leftist and I can't discuss issues in any detail. I just throw ad-hominen irrational comments at others because I am emotionally immature and just want to rant and rage.

I don’t know what ad hominem means.

But it makes me feel better to believe that I do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

A simple way to explain this is arguing against the person rather than against their argument. It's a technique you use because you can't discuss the issue logically and rationally.

And yet, I was arguing against the argument.

No you weren't. It was at best an irrational simplistic argument. It's clear that at this point this issue is to complex for you to think about. It's just a tribal issue. There is no point discussing this with you because it's like discussing a sporting team against another sporting team and in particular which team you support. You currently can't discuss the issue in any detail.

If you choose to engage in a mature fashion I'm happy to engage but I'm not responding to your childish comments anymore.

I am curious, steveo. Why do you speak to people this way? I don’t think you are changing any minds. Is it in some way satisfying to you?

Sailor Sam

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #881 on: March 22, 2019, 09:06:40 PM »
One final check of understanding. Overachingly you believe that sub-communities found within successful nations that are stricken by poverty are inflicting that poverty upon themselves? That any potential exo-community influences are so small they can successfully be discounted as trace issues?

Basically yes. I think you are being a bit disingenuous but I'll flip your comments a bit to make a point. I just mentioned how people graduating with medical degrees are predominantly Asian or Indian in Australia. Is this racism ? If is isn't what is it ?

We can do things to help poorer communities and we should but geez people succeed all the time from disadvantaged backgrounds. Brains and hard work will get you far in life.

I wasn't being disingenuous. A common premise of leadership is to restate what someone is telling you, to ensure understanding. I was trying to understand you. Based on our conversation I'm pretty comfortable deciding that you are not trolling. I've also reversed my original accusation of gaslighting, and downgrading to difficulty with articulation.

Maybe someday you'll experience a life event that will change your current level of empathy. Maybe you won't. Either way, your personal evolution isn't my responsibility.

I'd be interest in your comment to my point regarding the racial grouping of doctors in Australia. It's an interesting point.

I don't understand the gist of your point about medical degrees. Are asking for my comment on affirmative action, what you've been calling positive discrimination?

nnls

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #882 on: March 22, 2019, 09:55:36 PM »
I think I'm following. Your response seems to state two things:

1. Current black poverty is caused by the previous generation's poverty, due to the cycle of disfunction. Dysfunctional childhoods create adults and role models that give the next generation dysfunction childhoods, which creates adults and role models that give the third generation dysfunctional childhoods.

2. The disfunction of each individual combine together to create a culture that is collectively dysfunctional. There is no outside force pushing people down. Instead black poverty is the effect of the whole community unwittingly holding each other down, like the classic allegory of lobsters in a pot clutching at each other.

Have I got your theories correct?

Basically - I think that these are far and away the most important factors. It's an overall thing as well. I bet some people rise above it even though it's tough. This doesn't mean that they are bad people. It's just a bad environment and it's hard to fix it. Calling it racism is in my opinion completely missing the point.

I don't think every individual person is dysfunctional in that environment. There is a relatively famous Australian Aboriginal actor. I think he has something like 10 brothers and sisters with each one having a different dad. This story may be exaggerated a little. This guy has done well for himself though.

Can you acknowledge that it might be harder for an Aboriginal person or African person or Asian person in Australia who is born into poverty to rise above it than a white person because of racism?

Yes poverty is a major factor and because of historical racism there are higher percentages of Aboriginal people who are living in poverty.

This dysfunction is an issue for any poor person but it can be harder to rise above it if you are a person of colour because some people in Australia still have racist views and wont give these people a chance.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #883 on: March 22, 2019, 10:23:08 PM »
I don't understand the gist of your point about medical degrees. Are asking for my comment on affirmative action, what you've been calling positive discrimination?

In Australia most people that receive medical degrees are of Asian or Indian background. White people are now not becoming part of this profession. They are definitely in the minority. The question is simple - is this a case of racism against white people ? If it isn't racism then can you please provide reasons why this is occurring.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #884 on: March 22, 2019, 10:52:38 PM »
Can you acknowledge that it might be harder for an Aboriginal person or African person or Asian person in Australia who is born into poverty to rise above it than a white person because of racism?

No. The main issue here is poverty. Racism will play such a trivial role to basically not be a factor.

I'm not doubting that on occasions they may be called a derogatory name or they might even miss out on a job. In the overall scheme of their live though their natural abilities and hard work are going to be the most important factors in relation to how successful they are on societies terms. Rich people from different backgrounds will also sometimes have people discriminate against them because they are different.

Yes poverty is a major factor and because of historical racism there are higher percentages of Aboriginal people who are living in poverty.

I agree with this comment.

This dysfunction is an issue for any poor person but it can be harder to rise above it if you are a person of colour because some people in Australia still have racist views and wont give these people a chance.

This argument that in Australia some people are racist and won't give those people a chance doesn't cut it. Sure it's going to happen but it's going to happen so rarely.  There are also opportunities due to being Aboriginal that you can utilise to get ahead.

I should add that I get it's tough for some people. My wife came to Australia and reckons she had no friends at school for a while. She went to an expensive all girls school where they were all white and she was Asian. That would have sucked. She didn't fit in. Some people have it tougher than that. Some people are born into poverty and breaking out of that is hard. I am all for helping out people that are born into poverty and providing them with opportunities to succeed.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 10:56:45 PM by steveo »

nnls

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #885 on: March 23, 2019, 12:53:04 AM »
Can you acknowledge that it might be harder for an Aboriginal person or African person or Asian person in Australia who is born into poverty to rise above it than a white person because of racism?

No. The main issue here is poverty. Racism will play such a trivial role to basically not be a factor.

I'm not doubting that on occasions they may be called a derogatory name or they might even miss out on a job. In the overall scheme of their live though their natural abilities and hard work are going to be the most important factors in relation to how successful they are on societies terms. Rich people from different backgrounds will also sometimes have people discriminate against them because they are different.

Yes poverty is a major factor and because of historical racism there are higher percentages of Aboriginal people who are living in poverty.

I agree with this comment.

This dysfunction is an issue for any poor person but it can be harder to rise above it if you are a person of colour because some people in Australia still have racist views and wont give these people a chance.

This argument that in Australia some people are racist and won't give those people a chance doesn't cut it. Sure it's going to happen but it's going to happen so rarely.  There are also opportunities due to being Aboriginal that you can utilise to get ahead.

I should add that I get it's tough for some people. My wife came to Australia and reckons she had no friends at school for a while. She went to an expensive all girls school where they were all white and she was Asian. That would have sucked. She didn't fit in. Some people have it tougher than that. Some people are born into poverty and breaking out of that is hard. I am all for helping out people that are born into poverty and providing them with opportunities to succeed.

we will just have to agree to disagree about how much racism can affect people in Australia, the USA and other countries. I think its a lot more than a trivial amount but I dont think I am going to change your mind and you wont change mine 

gentmach

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #886 on: March 23, 2019, 05:02:24 AM »
The racism stuff I'm on the fence about. On the one hand, some personal responsibility is required. On the other, I'm watching The Nature Conservancy slowly and systematically dismantle two poor black communities tax base. (Nature Conservancy razes all man-made improvements lowering the tax value, which in turn defunds schools and infrastructure, which decreases desirability of the area, which opens more property to the Nature Conservancy.) I can see the system as being rigged.

I agree with you that it is up to individuals more than the state, the state being a reflection of the people. But you have to get to care again.

These issues are the ones I'd like to see fixed. You could even frame it differently. You could state something like we want to help support communities so that people of all backgrounds can excel. You can help provide positive support.

At the end of the day though individuals have to take action and we don't get to tell them to do that.

I am working on it. Problem is I have to get myself in a better position first.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #887 on: March 23, 2019, 05:04:36 AM »
I don't understand the gist of your point about medical degrees. Are asking for my comment on affirmative action, what you've been calling positive discrimination?

In Australia most people that receive medical degrees are of Asian or Indian background. White people are now not becoming part of this profession. They are definitely in the minority. The question is simple - is this a case of racism against white people ? If it isn't racism then can you please provide reasons why this is occurring.

I'm still uncertain what kind of larger point you'd like me to comment on. Affirmative action? Or, to show that one kind of non-white community is excelling, then the non-excelling communities are poor due to their own fault?

Perhaps if you told me how this doctor statistic fit into your worldview, then I could understand and comment.

Malcat

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #888 on: March 23, 2019, 08:05:35 AM »
What kind of person spends 18 pages arguing that there isn't racism anymore??

I mean, I get why he's arguing, he actually thinks there's no racism, which is just...wow. But why are you all engaging in this nonsense?

Steveo is entitled to his opinions, whatever they are, but he made them very clear very early on in a way that was unambiguous that his opinion would not be changed and that it is based on a core world view, which is at fundamental odds with the collective world view of most of us here who have witnessed an astounding amount of day to day racism.

It is what it is. This dude on the internet thinks there's no racism.  The appropriate response is to stare at your screen for a moment, say "Dafuq?" and then say to your cat "OMG, there's this Aussie dude on the financial forum who thinks there's no racism! In the US!!! Ha! How crazy is that Mr. Mittens??? So crazy!" And then put on a pot of tea.
Easy.

There is a validity to saying that countering these types of arguments when encountered has value, but there's also a responsibility not to give them too much credence either, and I think we passed that point a good dozen pages ago.

Steveo has made his beliefs and opinions very very clear. Many of us see those beliefs and opinions as deeply disturbing and problematic.

It is what it is.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #889 on: March 23, 2019, 02:42:18 PM »

I worked with a Nigerian immigrant who came to the US as a child.  Immigrating to the US, they came to live in a poverty stricken African American community. Her whole life her parents instilled the benefits of education.  As my friend describes, her parents did everything in their power so the children will become successful. She and all 5 of her siblings are successful adults today all with upper level degrees and well paying jobs.  She tells me stories of friends in high school who's parents actually put them down for trying to get good grades with an attitude of the parent not wanting to see their child have better success than them which as a very stark opposite of how my Nigerian friend grew up.  I have another successful African American friend who too experienced this among his high school friends.  The way I see it, if kids are not incentivized and taught how to break free from poverty, how will they not follow in the footsteps of their parents?

Does anyone have an opinion on these anecdotes?

I also want to make it clear that this is not about racism and that I see acts of racism regularly enough to know it still exists. And to stay on point to this topic, I am fiscally conservative and social liberal. I don't see a vs. or a conflict in my views.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #890 on: March 23, 2019, 05:22:58 PM »
I don't understand the gist of your point about medical degrees. Are asking for my comment on affirmative action, what you've been calling positive discrimination?

In Australia most people that receive medical degrees are of Asian or Indian background. White people are now not becoming part of this profession. They are definitely in the minority. The question is simple - is this a case of racism against white people ? If it isn't racism then can you please provide reasons why this is occurring.

I'm still uncertain what kind of larger point you'd like me to comment on. Affirmative action? Or, to show that one kind of non-white community is excelling, then the non-excelling communities are poor due to their own fault?

Perhaps if you told me how this doctor statistic fit into your worldview, then I could understand and comment.

I just want a simple answer if this is racism in action against white people. Make it binary - is this phenomena an example of racism against white people ? If it's not racism then why does it occur.

I'll help out by stating that this is really the exact same point that people are making on here and trying to state racism when I think the issue is more complex. I don't see racism in this phenomena - I see people from different cultures having different work ethics and values. Some white people will still become doctors but they will be a minority because on the whole their culture doesn't promote following the path to become doctors.

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #891 on: March 23, 2019, 05:32:12 PM »
I mean, I get why he's arguing, he actually thinks there's no racism, which is just...wow. But why are you all engaging in this nonsense?

Talk about not getting it. I'm not stating that there is no racism. I'm stating that it is rare. If I was wrong I think that there would be a bunch of you stating how black people are morally inferior to white people but that isn't happening. You are the proof of what I'm stating.

The problem is that a bunch of you call it racist when people from different cultural backgrounds do well or poorly in various aspects of society. My example of young white doctors being a minority and this is not racism is another good way to view my argument.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't try to improve society to help people who suffer in poorer communities. I think we should make changes. I also think people have to help themselves.

I view my thought process on this issue as being a mature detailed and nuanced view of the world whereas there is another viewpoint that is tribal and illogical arguing that racism is the reason for certain communities struggling. I think the racist view doesn't help those people coming from communities who struggle and it's a convenient way to not face the issue.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #892 on: March 23, 2019, 05:40:56 PM »
I don't understand the gist of your point about medical degrees. Are asking for my comment on affirmative action, what you've been calling positive discrimination?

In Australia most people that receive medical degrees are of Asian or Indian background. White people are now not becoming part of this profession. They are definitely in the minority. The question is simple - is this a case of racism against white people ? If it isn't racism then can you please provide reasons why this is occurring.

I'm still uncertain what kind of larger point you'd like me to comment on. Affirmative action? Or, to show that one kind of non-white community is excelling, then the non-excelling communities are poor due to their own fault?

Perhaps if you told me how this doctor statistic fit into your worldview, then I could understand and comment.

I just want a simple answer if this is racism in action against white people. Make it binary - is this phenomena an example of racism against white people ? If it's not racism then why does it occur.

I'll help out by stating that this is really the exact same point that people are making on here and trying to state racism when I think the issue is more complex. I don't see racism in this phenomena - I see people from different cultures having different work ethics and values. Some white people will still become doctors but they will be a minority because on the whole their culture doesn't promote following the path to become doctors.

Ah, lightbulb. I wasn't quite sure what kind of 'gotcha' moment you were attempting. Now I see that you're back on the kick that demographics and statistics cannot be used to interpret racism. But meh. I'm not interested. Not a whit of my personal evolution is your business, either.

anisotropy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #893 on: March 23, 2019, 07:15:20 PM »
I mean, I get why he's arguing, he actually thinks there's no racism, which is just...wow. But why are you all engaging in this nonsense?

Talk about not getting it. I'm not stating that there is no racism. I'm stating that it is rare. If I was wrong I think that there would be a bunch of you stating how black people are morally inferior to white people but that isn't happening. You are the proof of what I'm stating.

The problem is that a bunch of you call it racist when people from different cultural backgrounds do well or poorly in various aspects of society. My example of young white doctors being a minority and this is not racism is another good way to view my argument.


Don't waste your time @steveo . They've redefined "racism" and tied it to some bs power dynamic (aka by their definition it's not possible to be racist towards Whites oh and "white" Jews, among other ethnic groups), along with a whole slew of other "feel good" words. This ideology, which has been called many things, including Grievance Studies, intersectionalism, and Social Justice, or just critical theories in general, cloaks itself in beautiful words (e.g. “inclusion,” “diversity”) but is in fact in service of the opposite. It is racist, sexist, and limiting.

The most important thing for decent, rational, liberal people to understand about Social Justice is that it's always making its asks from within applied postmodern theory. It's therefore almost always asking for something very distinct and more demanding than it sounds like it is.

In this ideology, a panel that is 100% black women is 100% diverse because it isn't speaking from the "dominant" perspective that's assumed to pervade and underwrite all of society in applied postmodern theory. Yes, this is counter-intuitive, and it's what "diversity" really means as per stand point theory and intersectionality.

Your experience trying to talk about racism with these folks is critical race theory in a nutshell. It contains a few kernels of truth. Beyond those kernels, which are nearly irrelevant, it's utter bullshit. Not only is it totally BS, it's a specific kind of BS designed to make YOU feel guilty enough to believe and repeat it.

"Diversity" pushed by Social Justice is a justified form of naked discrimination. "Inclusion" means a demand for restricted speech. "Equity" is affirmative action that goes further and cuts down. To them, it is ALL "justified."

They know it's completely indefensible if the public ever finds out what it actually is, which is why they often just call people names (Nazi, neonazi, white supremacist, kkk, etc) while refuse to engage in rational discussions. Oh actually, apparently logic and reason is also a white construct these days.

@ericrugiero  The way I see it, it is not so much liberals vs conservatives. It is those of us that see how racist and sexist and limiting this bs ideology is vs its practitioners.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 07:51:34 PM by anisotropy »

Tyson

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #894 on: March 23, 2019, 10:01:58 PM »
I mean, I get why he's arguing, he actually thinks there's no racism, which is just...wow. But why are you all engaging in this nonsense?

Talk about not getting it. I'm not stating that there is no racism. I'm stating that it is rare. If I was wrong I think that there would be a bunch of you stating how black people are morally inferior to white people but that isn't happening. You are the proof of what I'm stating.

The problem is that a bunch of you call it racist when people from different cultural backgrounds do well or poorly in various aspects of society. My example of young white doctors being a minority and this is not racism is another good way to view my argument.


Don't waste your time @steveo . They've redefined "racism" and tied it to some bs power dynamic (aka by their definition it's not possible to be racist towards Whites oh and "white" Jews, among other ethnic groups), along with a whole slew of other "feel good" words. This ideology, which has been called many things, including Grievance Studies, intersectionalism, and Social Justice, or just critical theories in general, cloaks itself in beautiful words (e.g. “inclusion,” “diversity”) but is in fact in service of the opposite. It is racist, sexist, and limiting.

The most important thing for decent, rational, liberal people to understand about Social Justice is that it's always making its asks from within applied postmodern theory. It's therefore almost always asking for something very distinct and more demanding than it sounds like it is.

In this ideology, a panel that is 100% black women is 100% diverse because it isn't speaking from the "dominant" perspective that's assumed to pervade and underwrite all of society in applied postmodern theory. Yes, this is counter-intuitive, and it's what "diversity" really means as per stand point theory and intersectionality.

Your experience trying to talk about racism with these folks is critical race theory in a nutshell. It contains a few kernels of truth. Beyond those kernels, which are nearly irrelevant, it's utter bullshit. Not only is it totally BS, it's a specific kind of BS designed to make YOU feel guilty enough to believe and repeat it.

"Diversity" pushed by Social Justice is a justified form of naked discrimination. "Inclusion" means a demand for restricted speech. "Equity" is affirmative action that goes further and cuts down. To them, it is ALL "justified."

They know it's completely indefensible if the public ever finds out what it actually is, which is why they often just call people names (Nazi, neonazi, white supremacist, kkk, etc) while refuse to engage in rational discussions. Oh actually, apparently logic and reason is also a white construct these days.

@ericrugiero  The way I see it, it is not so much liberals vs conservatives. It is those of us that see how racist and sexist and limiting this bs ideology is vs its practitioners.


It is very naive to refuse to understand just how tribal we are.  There's a great book called Sapiens that you should check out that goes through the history of human development and tribalism is how we survived and thrived in a hostile world with limited, contested resources.  Just because we have houses and jobs and libraries and the internet does not change the fact that we are, at heart, tribal. 

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #895 on: March 24, 2019, 12:33:17 AM »
I mean, I get why he's arguing, he actually thinks there's no racism, which is just...wow. But why are you all engaging in this nonsense?

Talk about not getting it. I'm not stating that there is no racism. I'm stating that it is rare. If I was wrong I think that there would be a bunch of you stating how black people are morally inferior to white people but that isn't happening. You are the proof of what I'm stating.

The problem is that a bunch of you call it racist when people from different cultural backgrounds do well or poorly in various aspects of society. My example of young white doctors being a minority and this is not racism is another good way to view my argument.


Don't waste your time @steveo . They've redefined "racism" and tied it to some bs power dynamic (aka by their definition it's not possible to be racist towards Whites oh and "white" Jews, among other ethnic groups), along with a whole slew of other "feel good" words. This ideology, which has been called many things, including Grievance Studies, intersectionalism, and Social Justice, or just critical theories in general, cloaks itself in beautiful words (e.g. “inclusion,” “diversity”) but is in fact in service of the opposite. It is racist, sexist, and limiting.

The most important thing for decent, rational, liberal people to understand about Social Justice is that it's always making its asks from within applied postmodern theory. It's therefore almost always asking for something very distinct and more demanding than it sounds like it is.

In this ideology, a panel that is 100% black women is 100% diverse because it isn't speaking from the "dominant" perspective that's assumed to pervade and underwrite all of society in applied postmodern theory. Yes, this is counter-intuitive, and it's what "diversity" really means as per stand point theory and intersectionality.

Your experience trying to talk about racism with these folks is critical race theory in a nutshell. It contains a few kernels of truth. Beyond those kernels, which are nearly irrelevant, it's utter bullshit. Not only is it totally BS, it's a specific kind of BS designed to make YOU feel guilty enough to believe and repeat it.

"Diversity" pushed by Social Justice is a justified form of naked discrimination. "Inclusion" means a demand for restricted speech. "Equity" is affirmative action that goes further and cuts down. To them, it is ALL "justified."

They know it's completely indefensible if the public ever finds out what it actually is, which is why they often just call people names (Nazi, neonazi, white supremacist, kkk, etc) while refuse to engage in rational discussions. Oh actually, apparently logic and reason is also a white construct these days.

@ericrugiero  The way I see it, it is not so much liberals vs conservatives. It is those of us that see how racist and sexist and limiting this bs ideology is vs its practitioners.


This is a great post.

partgypsy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #896 on: March 24, 2019, 08:18:21 AM »
I mean, I get why he's arguing, he actually thinks there's no racism, which is just...wow. But why are you all engaging in this nonsense?

Talk about not getting it. I'm not stating that there is no racism. I'm stating that it is rare. If I was wrong I think that there would be a bunch of you stating how black people are morally inferior to white people but that isn't happening. You are the proof of what I'm stating.

The problem is that a bunch of you call it racist when people from different cultural backgrounds do well or poorly in various aspects of society. My example of young white doctors being a minority and this is not racism is another good way to view my argument.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't try to improve society to help people who suffer in poorer communities. I think we should make changes. I also think people have to help themselves.

I view my thought process on this issue as being a mature detailed and nuanced view of the world whereas there is another viewpoint that is tribal and illogical arguing that racism is the reason for certain communities struggling. I think the racist view doesn't help those people coming from communities who struggle and it's a convenient way to not face the issue.

Steveo, understand that you do not live in the US. I do. I current live in a liberal area of a not deep south, but southern state. When I first came here 20 years ago, people would use the word "n*gger" without blinking an eye, to say (in front of white people only) things like I'm not going downtown because there are too many (black people) there, or I won't live in (Durham) because there are too many (blacks). Yes I do NOT hear people saying those things outloud anymore. But I can still read them on many mainstream web forums (say people asking what are good neighborhoods or towns to live in, or in the comments after a news article). Also while my state is purple (almost evenly divided into democratic voting and republican voting populace, our elected representatives are overwhelmingly republican. They have effectively disenfranchised African Americans (who predominately vote Democrat) by gerrymandering of districts as well as placement and number of voting locations, and voting laws (shortening absentee voting and hours) (often Black and working class people have to work longer hours and do not get time off to vote).

I work with veterans. Some of the stories I have heard from African Americans who yes are now older, in their seventies, of what they went through, really shocked me opened my eyes to realize what they went through and the impact racism has not in the abstract but in the concrete. Everyone had the same laws. But the laws were enforced for the benefit of whites and for blacks laws and justice was nonexistent. Side by side, they lived in two different worlds. These people are still alive and these things have happened in our lifetime and of course have had effects on their lives as well as the lives of their children. How can you say this is rare when it still permeates our society?

To give you the benefit of the doubt, I grew up in the north and most of my life lived in a 95% white suburb where I was really a) not around black people, and b) and was taught racism was a terrible thing that was in the past. And that's what I naively believed until I moved to the south and started listening.   
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 08:56:09 AM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #897 on: March 24, 2019, 08:31:47 AM »

I worked with a Nigerian immigrant who came to the US as a child.  Immigrating to the US, they came to live in a poverty stricken African American community. Her whole life her parents instilled the benefits of education.  As my friend describes, her parents did everything in their power so the children will become successful. She and all 5 of her siblings are successful adults today all with upper level degrees and well paying jobs.  She tells me stories of friends in high school who's parents actually put them down for trying to get good grades with an attitude of the parent not wanting to see their child have better success than them which as a very stark opposite of how my Nigerian friend grew up.  I have another successful African American friend who too experienced this among his high school friends.  The way I see it, if kids are not incentivized and taught how to break free from poverty, how will they not follow in the footsteps of their parents?

Does anyone have an opinion on these anecdotes?

Yes, I do.

These two unverifiable second hand stories of black people purposely holding back their children for no discernible reason have convinced me of your viewpoint.  The evident biases of those in positions of power in the current power structure that we live in is unimportant.  Obviously black people are the problem.  Racism (while we all agree that it exists and is common to see) is nowhere near as important as the terribleness of black parents in anecdotes from "black friends".

partgypsy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #898 on: March 24, 2019, 08:37:21 AM »
Here's an example of the weirdness of the south, one I touched upon before. At some point there was national desegregtion laws, and the southern states had to follow them. There was busing of course, but many things that were still legal but discriminatory continued. That would be schools in predominately poorer or more black areas getting less funding. A push to have states be able to fund private schooling, so again the blacks would go to the defunded public schools and whites could go to private schools, or move to communities that had better funding for schools.

Many towns when told to de-segregate public pools, chose to close the public pools rather than have pools which were integrated (both blacks and whites could use).  What people in the south would do, is if they could afford it, either have their own pool, or more likely live in private communities with their own community pool (same for apartment complexes). There was a lot of informal discriminatory practices to prevent African American families being able to buy and rent in those communities. I remember being shocked when I first moved down, the lack of community, or publically available pools. Someone had to explain the history to me. Even now, in the present day, there is a racial gap in being able to swim. Is it because African Americans are inherently worse at swimming? No it has to do with historic and sociological factors in which they grew up. 


https://nypost.com/2018/07/05/white-man-calls-police-on-black-family-at-neighborhood-pool/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/us/pool-patrol-paula-south-carolina-trnd/index.html


The other crazy thing when I first moved down, was walking my dog downtown, and an older African American woman literally screamed and jumped up on a bench to get away from the dog (my dog is friendly). It made me feel terrible. And noticing that while white kids would ask and approach my dog to pet, Black kids either avoided my dog or very extremely hesitant/fearful. And so when I asked someone about the weird behavior, someone told me matter of factly that people used to train dogs to attack black people. I want to say 20 years later, I've noticed this behavior much less (fear of dogs from African Americans) so that is fading out.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 09:22:07 AM by partgypsy »

partgypsy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #899 on: March 24, 2019, 08:47:29 AM »

I worked with a Nigerian immigrant who came to the US as a child.  Immigrating to the US, they came to live in a poverty stricken African American community. Her whole life her parents instilled the benefits of education.  As my friend describes, her parents did everything in their power so the children will become successful. She and all 5 of her siblings are successful adults today all with upper level degrees and well paying jobs.  She tells me stories of friends in high school who's parents actually put them down for trying to get good grades with an attitude of the parent not wanting to see their child have better success than them which as a very stark opposite of how my Nigerian friend grew up.  I have another successful African American friend who too experienced this among his high school friends.  The way I see it, if kids are not incentivized and taught how to break free from poverty, how will they not follow in the footsteps of their parents?

Does anyone have an opinion on these anecdotes?

Yes, I do.

These two unverifiable second hand stories of black people purposely holding back their children for no discernible reason have convinced me of your viewpoint.  The evident biases of those in positions of power in the current power structure that we live in is unimportant.  Obviously black people are the problem.  Racism (while we all agree that it exists and is common to see) is nowhere near as important as the terribleness of black parents in anecdotes from "black friends".

Actually the fact that a first generation African, who comes to the US who is "naive" to racism, does better than a multi-generation African American, can be taken as evidence of the huge effect that multi-generational racism has had on African American communities. If you are told over and over again you cannot succeed, you are inferior, and you have also seen your parents and grandparents work very hard with less success than white counterparts, don't you think that might affect your belief in yourself? If you do not see people who look like you as lawyers, as politicians, and otherwise successful people in the communitiy, but the only people who do look like you who are successful are in sports or music, you might think that is the best way to succeed? In my own personal experience my ex talking to the cooks in back of the house (blacks mostly work "back of the house" in restaurants, but not "front of the house aka waits, bartenders, managers), said, why didn't you go to school (past hs)? Oftentimes they were raised in single parent household with other siblings. Their Mom felt as a "male" of the house, their job was to get out of school and start making money as soon as possible, to help support the family. There was absolutely no support from the parents (overworked Mom, absentee father) to even THINK that higher schooling was an option. Higher schooling was considered a luxury.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 10:44:49 AM by partgypsy »