Author Topic: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?  (Read 64513 times)

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #750 on: March 08, 2019, 07:00:40 PM »
https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

That is awesome. Interestingly my assessment that I am on the left is spot on. I'm on the bottom left of that Compass. That was good. I think that there are a lot of posters on this thread that are way way to the left and maybe authoritarian rather than libertarian as I am and that is why we clash.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #751 on: March 08, 2019, 08:19:07 PM »
https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

That is awesome. Interestingly my assessment that I am on the left is spot on. I'm on the bottom left of that Compass. That was good. I think that there are a lot of posters on this thread that are way way to the left and maybe authoritarian rather than libertarian as I am and that is why we clash.

Glad you enjoyed it.  I was close to the Dalai Lama when I took it a few years ago (about middle of the lower left quadrant).  My then PM, Stephen Harper, was top right.  Massive disconnect.

I'm not sure your location counts simply as "left" since someone in the top quadrant would also be "left" but way more authoritarian, which would grate.  Someone like me who is only somewhat libertarian on that part of the scale might also find someone who is massively libertarian to be not in sync politically even though we were in the same quadrant.  There is a lot of subtlety in there. "Left" basically doesn't seem to have any useful meaning.

I think it is much more useful than the liberal/conservative idea because it looks at 2 different continua. Not sure what a third axis would be.  I wish the OP had started with it.


steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #752 on: March 08, 2019, 09:07:44 PM »
https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

That is awesome. Interestingly my assessment that I am on the left is spot on. I'm on the bottom left of that Compass. That was good. I think that there are a lot of posters on this thread that are way way to the left and maybe authoritarian rather than libertarian as I am and that is why we clash.

Glad you enjoyed it.  I was close to the Dalai Lama when I took it a few years ago (about middle of the lower left quadrant).  My then PM, Stephen Harper, was top right.  Massive disconnect.

I'm not sure your location counts simply as "left" since someone in the top quadrant would also be "left" but way more authoritarian, which would grate.  Someone like me who is only somewhat libertarian on that part of the scale might also find someone who is massively libertarian to be not in sync politically even though we were in the same quadrant.  There is a lot of subtlety in there. "Left" basically doesn't seem to have any useful meaning.

I think it is much more useful than the liberal/conservative idea because it looks at 2 different continua. Not sure what a third axis would be.  I wish the OP had started with it.

I thought exactly the same thing and I've been sort of stating that in this thread but not articulating it well. I'm on the left but not far left and I'm libertarian and not authoritarian. I get that my viewpoint might grate a lot with people further left than myself and people who are left but authoritarian.

I was on the middle of the lower left quadrant as well. I'm to the right of Ghandi but more libertarian than he is.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #753 on: March 08, 2019, 09:20:47 PM »

Asking someone their personality type is not sexist. That's absurd. Were you being sexist when you said " let me guess, you're a T"? Please follow the logic here. The fact that some people stereotype women does not mean in this instance I was attempting to denigrate her.

The fact that both you and her took it the wrong way is not proof that I committed an offense, and I will not apologize to her because I didn't insult her. The insult is in your imagination.

Stop with the armchair diagnosis bullshit; I asked her a question. See my first point in regards to your behavior.

I don't care if you swear, that's a dodge anyway. You told me to get the fuck out, meaning I am not welcome here.

Stop inferring what others are thinking and give them a chance to explain themselves.

You didn't simply ask her her personality type. You said, I bet you're a feeler instead of a thinker.

I said, I bet you're a T, because I was guessing based on your remarks that you took the test, came out a T, and you're proud of that because you think the test is telling you you're more logical than feelers. Turns out I was right about the T part.

No. I said GTFOH with your armchair analysis BS. I did not mean you are not welcome here. This is not my forum to say whether anyone is welcome or not. I meant your analysis is BS, knock it off.

Editing to add: Also, just in case you are planning to continue arguing with me about what my intention was with GTFOH, here's the definition of that term in Urban Dictionary. It's an expression of disbelief, mainly (often at perceived foolishness). https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GTFOH  Which, as you will see above, is how I was using it.

And as far as inferring: she agreed with me in the thread above when I said, "LOL! Oh, brother!" And, I hope she doesn't mind my saying this, but she then PMed me, thanking me for sticking up for her. So, I don't think I'm inferring anything.

Per your definition of GTHOH, got it. Maybe though like my asking a question about personality traits it can be misconstrued. Something to consider. Same with calling people dude, it appears disrespectful.

"I was guessing based on your remarks that you took the test, came out a T, and you're proud of that because you think the test is telling you you're more logical than feelers."

That's what assuming other's intentions will get you. I'm not proud or otherwise, it just is.

Lastly, I'm happy you and Madge were there for each other, but both of you becoming angry was for naught, as an insult or stereotype was never intended. The fact that both of you misunderstood does not equate to an insult on my part. The insult was completely imagined. Ask me next time.

Look. I didn't expect you to own up to any of it. And frankly, most of the time that I have called men on sexist behavior toward me in the past, they have denied it.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

That's the equivalent of you having a dream about your husband cheating on you and when you wake up to find him by your side and not in the arms of another woman you still hold it against him and get mad at him.

You have dreamed this whole kerfuffle up in your imagination and you want me to own up to behavior I didn't exhibit? I find you completely irrational and you have deliberately chosen to be offended.

Me: That is not what I meant

You: But that's not what I want to believe

Me: But I didn't mean what you want to believe

You: But I believe it, therefore it must be true, even though I have no proof

Me: But I'm telling you what is true, as I am the originator and know exactly what I was trying to convey

You: That's what a sexist would say

Me: I give up

Nope.

I mean, almost no one ever admits to sexist or racist behavior. Like seriously. People knee-jerk never, ever, ever admit to this. Except in very rare cases.

Like, even straight up Neo-nazis say, "I'm not racist! I just don't believe blacks and whites should mix."

So no. It's not like someone being asked to admit stuff they literally never did.

It's people being called out for what they did. And of course believing they are the heroes of their own narrative. And not being willing to take a step back, and look at the situation.

So again. I was never expecting you to take a step back and say to yourself, "Huh. Maybe I should think about what a woman -- actually, two women -- are telling me was sexist."

Because that literally almost never happens.

Wow, that is one hell of a get out of jail free card you've got lined up for yourself.


So again. I was never expecting you to take a step back and say to yourself, "Huh. Maybe I should think about what a woman -- actually, two women -- are telling me was sexist."

No actually I was expecting two people, who happened to be women, to take responsibility for their reactions and not jump to conclusions. I was also expecting you, who happens to be a woman, to take responsibility and step back and say to herself " boy, I really misread this one, maybe next time I won't be so quick to fly off the handle and assume I know the writers intentions. "

If you are going to throw the sexism card out there even after I have explained this to you, then don't get mad next time someone doesn't take your accusations seriously. Because I won't as you have made this entire dramafest up in your head. You are not believable. Your actions have demonstrated this and your poor logic cements my opinion of you.

You have actually hurt your cause, as you have demonstrated as a woman, you are too sensitive to distinguish between an honest question and sexism. I didn't feel a need for a huge disclaimer (although I put a small one in) when I first asked the question because I thought that would be insulting ironically. You know, equality. Toughen up a little.

Jesus fucking Christ on a stick. For serious?

MasterStache

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #754 on: March 09, 2019, 05:40:27 AM »
The poor/middle class voters in 2016 were presented with 2 choices, Clinton or Trump. 

Trump is a liar, but he promised to keep out some of the illegal competition via a wall and policy (maybe a lie), keep factory jobs (big lie), and MAGA (whatever that means).

Clinton, on the other hand, referred to certain segments as deplorable and had numerous other skeletons in her closet. 

Those were the choices.  Were the ardent supporters of Trump misinformed?  Likely. 

Were the people who thought Trump the lesser of 2 evils misinformed?  I don't know. When one of the candidates calls you names and the other promises jobs (even if he's lying)? 

I'm not arguing or cheerleading for Trump nor arguing against your disgust of him.  He's said some awful things.

I would have loved a third choice that stood a chance.

Clinton called deplorable people deplorable. I guess that is wrong if you feel the need to defend racist, sexist, xenophobic people. Trump absolutely insulted people. Remember "I love the poorly educated?" People didn't vote for Trump because they felt insulted by Clinton. I mean maybe they did, but that's kind of like giving up wine coolers for hard liquor because wine coolers have too much alcohol. 

I did want to comment on the factory jobs. Manufacturing itself was seeing an increase in jobs before the election even began. One of the reasons was the implementation of training programs by employers themselves. They need less "gadget" assemblers and more machine operators. Clinton's platform for manufacturing was to greatly increase funding for these programs and invest on other technical programs to help folks fill better, higher paying jobs. GM is trying to do that right now at their Lordstown, OH plant, which just closed down.

Point being, I absolutely believe people were misinformed. Trump promised these people their jobs back knowing damn well they weren't coming back. Meanwhile, Clinton promised to help them actually move forward with realistic action plans that were already being implemented. The preponderance of manufacturing jobs have been lost to automation/technology, not trade. Of course all we heard was how Dems were shipping jobs off to China and that is why you don't have your manufacturing job.

You don't seem to get it. When Clinton called Trump supporters racist she conveniently avoided facing the issues that are a concern to a lot of people and put more people off-side. You are doing the same thing.

You have an assumption that if you are concerned about legitimate threats such as terrorism and immigration then you are a racist blah blah blah. People hear you and others state this and you offend them.

Your response is simply that of a bigot:- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

Quote
a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

These are the type of concerns that are being raised within this thread. If you are a bigot (which by the definition of the word you are) it's extremely hard to engage with you.

You should learn the difference between calling out a group of folks because of their ideologies versus calling out a group of folks based on their race/ethnicity. I did the former not the latter. Bravo on the straw-man and subsequent trolling though. Well done!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 07:39:08 AM by MasterStache »

Cool Friend

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #755 on: March 09, 2019, 06:23:47 AM »

You have actually hurt your cause, as you have demonstrated as a woman, you are too sensitive to distinguish between an honest question and sexism. I didn't feel a need for a huge disclaimer (although I put a small one in) when I first asked the question because I thought that would be insulting ironically. You know, equality. Toughen up a little.

"I told you I'm not sexist, and if you weren't such a dramatic, sensitive woman, you would accept that."

We all see where you were going with the "you strike me more as a Feeler than a Thinker" thing.  Pretending you brought up Myers-Briggs out of nowhere because you find personality traits "interesting" isn't fooling anyone.

Kris

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #756 on: March 09, 2019, 07:19:30 AM »

You have actually hurt your cause, as you have demonstrated as a woman, you are too sensitive to distinguish between an honest question and sexism. I didn't feel a need for a huge disclaimer (although I put a small one in) when I first asked the question because I thought that would be insulting ironically. You know, equality. Toughen up a little.

"I told you I'm not sexist, and if you weren't such a dramatic, sensitive woman, you would accept that."

We all see where you were going with the "you strike me more as a Feeler than a Thinker" thing.  Pretending you brought up Myers-Briggs out of nowhere because you find personality traits "interesting" isn't fooling anyone.

Yep. Which is what I was pointing out all along, of course.

Nice of him to show us so succinctly, though.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 08:11:05 AM by Kris »

arebelspy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #757 on: March 09, 2019, 08:30:00 AM »
They didn't "make up" you insulting them, Versatile.

Here's a quote that stuck with me a few years ago that might help you understand the situation: You don't get to decide when someone else is insulted.

I used to also go "I wasn't intending to insult you, therefore it wasn't an insult." But that's not how that works. Once you wrap your head around that, your amount of empathy will grow a lot.

Of course you don't have to apologize. That's always up to you. But that doesn't mean people weren't insulted by your comments, and a defensive "grow thicker skin" doesn't solve that, only empathy does.

/Likely going to delete this comment later to get this thread out of my unreads. Don't care if it's quoted or not first.
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shenlong55

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #758 on: March 09, 2019, 09:07:18 AM »
https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

That is awesome. Interestingly my assessment that I am on the left is spot on. I'm on the bottom left of that Compass. That was good. I think that there are a lot of posters on this thread that are way way to the left and maybe authoritarian rather than libertarian as I am and that is why we clash.

To give you a point of reference...

Economic Left/Right: -4.5
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15

I would be considered far left with regards to American politics.


They didn't "make up" you insulting them, Versatile.

Here's a quote that stuck with me a few years ago that might help you understand the situation: You don't get to decide when someone else is insulted.

I used to also go "I wasn't intending to insult you, therefore it wasn't an insult." But that's not how that works. Once you wrap your head around that, your amount of empathy will grow a lot.

Of course you don't have to apologize. That's always up to you. But that doesn't mean people weren't insulted by your comments, and a defensive "grow thicker skin" doesn't solve that, only empathy does.

/Likely going to delete this comment later to get this thread out of my unreads. Don't care if it's quoted or not first.

+1

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #759 on: March 09, 2019, 09:27:08 AM »
They didn't "make up" you insulting them, Versatile.

Here's a quote that stuck with me a few years ago that might help you understand the situation: You don't get to decide when someone else is insulted.

I used to also go "I wasn't intending to insult you, therefore it wasn't an insult." But that's not how that works. Once you wrap your head around that, your amount of empathy will grow a lot.

Of course you don't have to apologize. That's always up to you. But that doesn't mean people weren't insulted by your comments, and a defensive "grow thicker skin" doesn't solve that, only empathy does.

/Likely going to delete this comment later to get this thread out of my unreads. Don't care if it's quoted or not first.

Thank you for your comment and please understand I agree with you. The obvious question is then why haven't I apologized?

Your example could just as easily be applied to me and the way I was attacked by Kris before I had a chance to explain myself. She applied motive and jumped the gun, and after my position was explained, she still insisted I was guilty of the perceived crime and had the audacity to try to shame me into an apology. It's horrible circular reasoning about imagined thought crimes. If I apologize I would be reinforcing poor reasoning skills and quite frankly a bully tactic. She should accept my honest position that I wasn't insulting her or any other woman and move on.

My admonishment to toughen up stands. That's for anyone that is so delicate that they can't handle an opposing viewpoint or discuss ideas rationally. You don't have to agree with that person, but a melt-down is ridiculous. And I already know that some people are viewing my telling Kris to toughen up as sexist. My position is that I am treating Kris like any other person that is acting irrationally based on perceived slights. That is what equality looks like, and if one is going to attack someone like Kris did with me, than she should expect push-back and not try to shame me into an apology based on her gender.

Finally, yes I am aware sexism exists and men are guilty of it. As are women, open your eyes. But when I can't ask an honest, non-patronizing question to a fellow poster who happens to be a woman, this is nuts. So yes, I don't get to choose who gets offended, but I can certainly encourage others to be more open-minded and to give others a chance to explain their views.




arebelspy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #760 on: March 09, 2019, 09:55:19 AM »
They didn't "make up" you insulting them, Versatile.

Here's a quote that stuck with me a few years ago that might help you understand the situation: You don't get to decide when someone else is insulted.

I used to also go "I wasn't intending to insult you, therefore it wasn't an insult." But that's not how that works. Once you wrap your head around that, your amount of empathy will grow a lot.

Of course you don't have to apologize. That's always up to you. But that doesn't mean people weren't insulted by your comments, and a defensive "grow thicker skin" doesn't solve that, only empathy does.

/Likely going to delete this comment later to get this thread out of my unreads. Don't care if it's quoted or not first.

Thank you for your comment and please understand I agree with you.

I have no interest in arguing with you.

Suffice it to say, I disagree with the vast majority of your post, and think that the entire rest of your post negates this first sentence. You did not understand what I was saying.

Best of luck to you.
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shenlong55

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #761 on: March 09, 2019, 09:59:36 AM »
They didn't "make up" you insulting them, Versatile.

Here's a quote that stuck with me a few years ago that might help you understand the situation: You don't get to decide when someone else is insulted.

I used to also go "I wasn't intending to insult you, therefore it wasn't an insult." But that's not how that works. Once you wrap your head around that, your amount of empathy will grow a lot.

Of course you don't have to apologize. That's always up to you. But that doesn't mean people weren't insulted by your comments, and a defensive "grow thicker skin" doesn't solve that, only empathy does.

/Likely going to delete this comment later to get this thread out of my unreads. Don't care if it's quoted or not first.

Thank you for your comment and please understand I agree with you. The obvious question is then why haven't I apologized?

Your example could just as easily be applied to me and the way I was attacked by Kris before I had a chance to explain myself. She applied motive and jumped the gun, and after my position was explained, she still insisted I was guilty of the perceived crime and had the audacity to try to shame me into an apology. It's horrible circular reasoning about imagined thought crimes. If I apologize I would be reinforcing poor reasoning skills and quite frankly a bully tactic. She should accept my honest position that I wasn't insulting her or any other woman and move on.

My admonishment to toughen up stands. That's for anyone that is so delicate that they can't handle an opposing viewpoint or discuss ideas rationally. You don't have to agree with that person, but a melt-down is ridiculous. And I already know that some people are viewing my telling Kris to toughen up as sexist. My position is that I am treating Kris like any other person that is acting irrationally based on perceived slights. That is what equality looks like, and if one is going to attack someone like Kris did with me, than she should expect push-back and not try to shame me into an apology based on her gender.

Finally, yes I am aware sexism exists and men are guilty of it. As are women, open your eyes. But when I can't ask an honest, non-patronizing question to a fellow poster who happens to be a woman, this is nuts. So yes, I don't get to choose who gets offended, but I can certainly encourage others to be more open-minded and to give others a chance to explain their views.

I think you're presenting yourself with a false choice.  Apologizing doesn't prevent you from doing any of those other things.  You can apologize and ask for an apology in return if you think you're owed one.  You can apologize and encourage others to be more open-minded and to give others a chance to explain their views.  In fact, I think you would likely be more successful in changing peoples minds if you did so.

arebelspy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #762 on: March 09, 2019, 10:07:02 AM »
I think you're presenting yourself with a false choice.  Apologizing doesn't prevent you from doing any of those other things.  You can apologize and ask for an apology in return if you think you're owed one.  You can apologize and encourage others to be more open-minded and to give others a chance to explain their views.  In fact, I think you would likely be more successful in changing peoples minds if you did so.

Another relevant quote that taught me a lot, personally: You will never change someone's mind by telling them their feelings are wrong.
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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #763 on: March 09, 2019, 10:21:12 AM »
They didn't "make up" you insulting them, Versatile.

Here's a quote that stuck with me a few years ago that might help you understand the situation: You don't get to decide when someone else is insulted.

I used to also go "I wasn't intending to insult you, therefore it wasn't an insult." But that's not how that works. Once you wrap your head around that, your amount of empathy will grow a lot.


Of course you don't have to apologize. That's always up to you. But that doesn't mean people weren't insulted by your comments, and a defensive "grow thicker skin" doesn't solve that, only empathy does.

/Likely going to delete this comment later to get this thread out of my unreads. Don't care if it's quoted or not first.

Thank you for your comment and please understand I agree with you.

I have no interest in arguing with you.

Suffice it to say, I disagree with the vast majority of your post, and think that the entire rest of your post negates this first sentence. You did not understand what I was saying.

Best of luck to you.

And I have no interest in arguing with you. Truly.

I understand I come across as completely unsympathetic. It's something I need to work on indeed. But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris. I think that is where we are not coming to an understanding.

But if you don't agree that is fine too.

Versatile

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #764 on: March 09, 2019, 10:26:04 AM »
They didn't "make up" you insulting them, Versatile.

Here's a quote that stuck with me a few years ago that might help you understand the situation: You don't get to decide when someone else is insulted.

I used to also go "I wasn't intending to insult you, therefore it wasn't an insult." But that's not how that works. Once you wrap your head around that, your amount of empathy will grow a lot.

Of course you don't have to apologize. That's always up to you. But that doesn't mean people weren't insulted by your comments, and a defensive "grow thicker skin" doesn't solve that, only empathy does.

/Likely going to delete this comment later to get this thread out of my unreads. Don't care if it's quoted or not first.

Thank you for your comment and please understand I agree with you. The obvious question is then why haven't I apologized?

Your example could just as easily be applied to me and the way I was attacked by Kris before I had a chance to explain myself. She applied motive and jumped the gun, and after my position was explained, she still insisted I was guilty of the perceived crime and had the audacity to try to shame me into an apology. It's horrible circular reasoning about imagined thought crimes. If I apologize I would be reinforcing poor reasoning skills and quite frankly a bully tactic. She should accept my honest position that I wasn't insulting her or any other woman and move on.

My admonishment to toughen up stands. That's for anyone that is so delicate that they can't handle an opposing viewpoint or discuss ideas rationally. You don't have to agree with that person, but a melt-down is ridiculous. And I already know that some people are viewing my telling Kris to toughen up as sexist. My position is that I am treating Kris like any other person that is acting irrationally based on perceived slights. That is what equality looks like, and if one is going to attack someone like Kris did with me, than she should expect push-back and not try to shame me into an apology based on her gender.

Finally, yes I am aware sexism exists and men are guilty of it. As are women, open your eyes. But when I can't ask an honest, non-patronizing question to a fellow poster who happens to be a woman, this is nuts. So yes, I don't get to choose who gets offended, but I can certainly encourage others to be more open-minded and to give others a chance to explain their views.

I think you're presenting yourself with a false choice.  Apologizing doesn't prevent you from doing any of those other things.  You can apologize and ask for an apology in return if you think you're owed one.  You can apologize and encourage others to be more open-minded and to give others a chance to explain their views.  In fact, I think you would likely be more successful in changing peoples minds if you did so.

I think that is sound advice.

To all: I apologize for asking a question that could be misconstrued as latent sexism

arebelspy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #765 on: March 09, 2019, 10:35:32 AM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology, thank you. Things like that tend to give benefit of the doubt towards assumptions of "maybe he didn't mean it as sexist, but sees how it can be construed as such" so that the conversation can move forward.

Cheers!
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

shenlong55

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #766 on: March 09, 2019, 10:42:16 AM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology, thank you. Things like that tend to give benefit of the doubt towards assumptions of "maybe he didn't mean it as sexist, but sees how it can be construed as such" so that the conversation can move forward.

Cheers!

+1

Midwest

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #767 on: March 09, 2019, 10:55:16 AM »

Question for you as our northern friend, there has been much talk about illegal immigration in this thread and some criticism for our policy (not necessarily by you). 

If Canada had 1.2M people in the country illegally, do you think your citizens would be concerned?  I arrived at the 1M by comparing your population of roughly 36M to our population which is roughly 10x yours.  Theoretically we have 10 - 12M undocumented people in the US.

Despite what people seem to think (based on casual comments about immigrating here), Canada has tough immigration requirements. We don't want illegal immigrants either, and we do kick them out.  We do have people overstaying their visas, just as happens in the US.  We don't have as much of a problem with our border entries, simply because we only have one land border, and it is with the US, but we do get illegal immigrants from the US.  What made the news last winter (2017/18, not 2018/19) was people who had refugee status in the US suddenly coming across the border away from entry points because they got afraid that they were going to have issues in the US. 

I found this online article interesting.
https://www.immigroup.com/news/illegal-immigration-canada

Where we do seem to differ is being more open to refugees and legal immigrants. If you meet our point system you are welcome here.  If you are applying under false pretenses, go away.  Canada is becoming (really, has become) multicultural and multi-ethnic as a result.  I remember when our first Governor-General of Ukrainian descent was appointed, that was a big deal because he wasn't from either of the founding groups (French or English).  Since then we have had women and minorities (sometimes the same person, like Michaëlle Jean [Francophone, a woman, came as a child from Haiti]) as GGs.  The leader of the federal NDP party is Jagmeet Singh.  The leader of the Ontario NDP party is Andrea Horwath.  The NDP is generally considered our left-wing party, the Conservatives are way more right-wing than the old Progressive Conservatives, and the Liberals sit in the middle.

The stories I have heard about friends working in the US and green cards. . . . .  It seems to be really hard to immigrate to the US, long waits and arbitrary decisions.   In the US, if the jobs exist that the illegal immigrants are taking, wouldn't it make more sense to have them come in as legal immigrants?     

Re liberal/conservative, there is an online site/test (I wish I had bookmarked it - hah! found it, it is below) that looks at political affiliation on 2 axes, since liberal/conservative really is uni-dimensional.  Using it instead of liberal/conservative would probably really help this discussion.  I took it and realized why Stephen Harper was the absolutely worst Prime Minister to me, we were in diametrically opposite quadrants.   

https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

The US allows roughly 1M people per year to become citizens versus about 300k per year for Canada.  I think most American are open to legal immigrants.  There are more people that want to become US citizens than Americans want to absorb.  I don't know if Canada has that problem or to the extent the US does. 

With regard to the illegal immigrants and US jobs, some of those jobs are being taken by those here illegally because they underprice those here legally.   I think that hurts the poor and middle class the most.  If that influence (underpricing) were taken away and we still needed labor, I would certainly be open to more visas. 

Canada does have a distinct advantage over the US in that there isn't a mass of people crossing its southern border.  The US is apprehending 400k per year.  I think it's difficult for the US to deal with that kind of crossings in the manner people would like.

Lastly, enjoyed your test.  I was dead in the middle.

Boofinator

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #768 on: March 09, 2019, 10:57:08 AM »
May I offer an analogy to this conversation. Imagine you open a door and almost hit somebody in the face. You might think that the person on the other side of the door should have been paying more attention in case somebody opened the door, and of course you didn't intend to or even physically hurt them. In such an instance I would still apologize, because I could have hurt them, and at the very least caused them alarm.

Versatile, I understand where you are coming from not wanting to apologize, feeling you did nothing wrong. And as others have said, that is your right. But in this instance, your words could be misconstrued as suggesting the other poster was not using logic but rather feeling in having this discussion with you. If you had happened to ask me the same question, I would probably have been slightly offended as well, and I am not a woman, because 1) the insinuation that if someone is using feeling then they are not using as much logic and therefore their position is on shaky ground and 2) why would someone's score on Meyers-Briggs even be pertinent to the topic of conversation. So if you really want to continue persuading others to your way of view, I don't feel offending them would be productive toward your goals; if you agree, an apology might be in order, even if the original intent was pure. There is no loss of dignity in apologies or forgiveness.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #769 on: March 09, 2019, 11:09:59 AM »
The US allows roughly 1M people per year to become citizens versus about 300k per year for Canada.  I think most American are open to legal immigrants.  There are more people that want to become US citizens than Americans want to absorb.  I don't know if Canada has that problem or to the extent the US does. 

With regard to the illegal immigrants and US jobs, some of those jobs are being taken by those here illegally because they underprice those here legally.   I think that hurts the poor and middle class the most.  If that influence (underpricing) were taken away and we still needed labor, I would certainly be open to more visas. 

Canada does have a distinct advantage over the US in that there isn't a mass of people crossing its southern border.  The US is apprehending 400k per year.  I think it's difficult for the US to deal with that kind of crossings in the manner people would like.

Lastly, enjoyed your test.  I was dead in the middle.

Since your population is roughly 10X ours, the ratio should be 3M:300k, all other things being equal.  Obviously all other things are not equal.  One obvious thing, that the article I posted pointed out, is that our fertility rate is way lower*.  Plus Canada has a long history of boosting population by immigration.  Another is that there is room for Francophones, just as the US may seem more welcoming linguistically to Spanish speakers.  We get lots of immigrants from la Francophonie.

*We are a lot better for maternity leave/child tax benefits, and this low fertility rate is partly why -  we are trying to make it easier for young couples to have children.  We also have relatively easy availability to birth control and abortions, so those young couples (and not so young couples) can have those children when they want them.  Canada's attitude towards all sorts of sexual aspects of society has really loosened up since the 50s and 60s.

Midwest

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #770 on: March 09, 2019, 11:16:58 AM »
The US allows roughly 1M people per year to become citizens versus about 300k per year for Canada.  I think most American are open to legal immigrants.  There are more people that want to become US citizens than Americans want to absorb.  I don't know if Canada has that problem or to the extent the US does. 

With regard to the illegal immigrants and US jobs, some of those jobs are being taken by those here illegally because they underprice those here legally.   I think that hurts the poor and middle class the most.  If that influence (underpricing) were taken away and we still needed labor, I would certainly be open to more visas. 

Canada does have a distinct advantage over the US in that there isn't a mass of people crossing its southern border.  The US is apprehending 400k per year.  I think it's difficult for the US to deal with that kind of crossings in the manner people would like.

Lastly, enjoyed your test.  I was dead in the middle.

Since your population is roughly 10X ours, the ratio should be 3M:300k, all other things being equal.  Obviously all other things are not equal.  One obvious thing, that the article I posted pointed out, is that our fertility rate is way lower*.  Plus Canada has a long history of boosting population by immigration.  Another is that there is room for Francophones, just as the US may seem more welcoming linguistically to Spanish speakers.  We get lots of immigrants from la Francophonie.

*We are a lot better for maternity leave/child tax benefits, and this low fertility rate is partly why -  we are trying to make it easier for young couples to have children.  We also have relatively easy availability to birth control and abortions, so those young couples (and not so young couples) can have those children when they want them.  Canada's attitude towards all sorts of sexual aspects of society has really loosened up since the 50s and 60s.

Fair enough on the ratio, but 1M people is not a negligible amount and combined with our birth rate the population continues to grow. 

To add - Interesting thing I've noticed, we get a lot of Canadian docs immigrating to the US.  I suspect its due to the higher pay.  As a recipient of their care (my ankle doc originally Canadian), thanks!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 11:24:27 AM by Midwest »

Versatile

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #771 on: March 09, 2019, 11:48:14 AM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology, thank you. Things like that tend to give benefit of the doubt towards assumptions of "maybe he didn't mean it as sexist, but sees how it can be construed as such" so that the conversation can move forward.

Cheers!

I feel like we should have a beer summit. Haha. Kris, do you like beer?

blackomen

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #772 on: March 09, 2019, 12:39:58 PM »
People who are overly sensitive when it comes to politics and the overall tabooness of this topic bother me far more than crossing paths with someone who doesn't agree with me politically.

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Boofinator

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #773 on: March 09, 2019, 01:32:13 PM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology, thank you. Things like that tend to give benefit of the doubt towards assumptions of "maybe he didn't mean it as sexist, but sees how it can be construed as such" so that the conversation can move forward.

Cheers!

I feel like we should have a beer summit. Haha. Kris, do you like beer?

I was actually thinking something quite similar. Political conversations go much better in person and with a beer in hand.

MasterStache

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #774 on: March 09, 2019, 02:00:57 PM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology, thank you. Things like that tend to give benefit of the doubt towards assumptions of "maybe he didn't mean it as sexist, but sees how it can be construed as such" so that the conversation can move forward.

Cheers!

I feel like we should have a beer summit. Haha. Kris, do you like beer?

I was actually thinking something quite similar. Political conversations go much better in person and with a beer in hand.

I don’t know I’ve witnessed some pretty nasty disputes when the beer starts flowing. I prefer sports and life. I keep politics and religion out of those discussions.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 04:25:35 PM by MasterStache »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #775 on: March 09, 2019, 02:26:19 PM »
They didn't "make up" you insulting them, Versatile.

Here's a quote that stuck with me a few years ago that might help you understand the situation: You don't get to decide when someone else is insulted.

I used to also go "I wasn't intending to insult you, therefore it wasn't an insult." But that's not how that works. Once you wrap your head around that, your amount of empathy will grow a lot.


Of course you don't have to apologize. That's always up to you. But that doesn't mean people weren't insulted by your comments, and a defensive "grow thicker skin" doesn't solve that, only empathy does.

/Likely going to delete this comment later to get this thread out of my unreads. Don't care if it's quoted or not first.

Thank you for your comment and please understand I agree with you.

I have no interest in arguing with you.

Suffice it to say, I disagree with the vast majority of your post, and think that the entire rest of your post negates this first sentence. You did not understand what I was saying.

Best of luck to you.

And I have no interest in arguing with you. Truly.

I understand I come across as completely unsympathetic. It's something I need to work on indeed. But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris. I think that is where we are not coming to an understanding.

But if you don't agree that is fine too.

I understand your position. I understand what arebelspy is stating and I can see the truth in that comment however I come back to a couple of points:-

1. What was actually said ? You cannot live your life walking on eggshells. You can look at yourself and state did I do the wrong thing here and try and learn from that. Sometimes though the person finding offence finds offence a little too easily,
2. Integrity. You cannot be offended about stuff if you are doing the same thing if not worse. Kris and others within this thread have been pretty extreme in their viewpoints and some of their comments. If you want to attack other people then you don't get the right to get offended so easily.

There should be some apologies coming from a lot of other posters on this thread.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 02:32:18 PM by steveo »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #776 on: March 09, 2019, 02:28:44 PM »
There is no loss of dignity in apologies or forgiveness.

I agree with this as well. It'd be good to see some other posters apologise.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 02:35:20 PM by steveo »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #777 on: March 09, 2019, 02:31:10 PM »
I don’t know I’ve witnessed some pretty nasty disputes when the beer starts flowing. I prefer sports and life discussions. I keep politics and religion out of those discussions.

Alcohol to me is a drug that requires a lot of care. Pot on the other hand isn't likely to lead to nasty disputes.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #778 on: March 09, 2019, 04:13:25 PM »

To add - Interesting thing I've noticed, we get a lot of Canadian docs immigrating to the US.  I suspect its due to the higher pay.  As a recipient of their care (my ankle doc originally Canadian), thanks!

Cheap education and great salaries -  go to school here, practice there.  It's been going on for decades, in lots of fields.  Look at Mr. Money Mustache, he did the same thing.

We call it the brain drain.

Versatile

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #779 on: March 09, 2019, 06:30:41 PM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology

I don’t. It’s a bullshit apology that means nothing and even has a built-in insult. No one misconstrued anything. Versatile’s statement WAS latent sexism. I mean, if it’s latent then it makes sense that Versatile might not be aware of the sexism in it, but it was definitely sexist.

So instead of getting defensive, the proper response here should be something like “thanks for pointing out the sexist spinach in my teeth because I didn’t see it, which means I couldn’t address it, but now I can. My statement upheld the sexist idea that women are weak thinkers and that is not a belief that I want to perpetuate in the world. I apologize and I will learn from this and do better.” 

It’s not rocket science, but very few people seem capable of doing this. If Versatile is capable of it, I will be pleasantly surprised, but I’m not holding my breath.

Kris and I have moved on, and I was going to invite you to the beer summit too but no more. I went back and read some of the stuff you posted and this part really stuck out:

"Also, you misunderstand what progressivism is about. I'm not at all interested in "tolerance" so I'm not sure why conservatives keep bringing it up as, I dunno, something they see as intellectually dishonest or something? Because we won't tolerate their intellectually dishonest bullshit.

But you've missed the point about what we want. Tolerance is not what progressivism is about. It's about justice. I have no interest in tolerating apologists for the virulent racist misogynist fascist idiocy that we see taking hold of every part of the Republican party. So stop thinking that you can win any points by saying "well dang these liberals say they want tolerance but they won't tolerate ME."

Post 562 Madgeylou

I think you are a little too extreme for me. I realistically can't see us on agreeing to much and I have already explained my points and apologized for my transgression. It's time to move on.

madgeylou

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #780 on: March 09, 2019, 06:41:19 PM »
I removed my post because what’s the point?

Kris

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #781 on: March 09, 2019, 06:46:04 PM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology

I don’t. It’s a bullshit apology that means nothing and even has a built-in insult. No one misconstrued anything. Versatile’s statement WAS latent sexism. I mean, if it’s latent then it makes sense that Versatile might not be aware of the sexism in it, but it was definitely sexist.

So instead of getting defensive, the proper response here should be something like “thanks for pointing out the sexist spinach in my teeth because I didn’t see it, which means I couldn’t address it, but now I can. My statement upheld the sexist idea that women are weak thinkers and that is not a belief that I want to perpetuate in the world. I apologize and I will learn from this and do better.” 

It’s not rocket science, but very few people seem capable of doing this. If Versatile is capable of it, I will be pleasantly surprised, but I’m not holding my breath.

Kris and I have moved on, and I was going to invite you to the beer summit too but no more. I went back and read some of the stuff you posted and this part really stuck out:

"Also, you misunderstand what progressivism is about. I'm not at all interested in "tolerance" so I'm not sure why conservatives keep bringing it up as, I dunno, something they see as intellectually dishonest or something? Because we won't tolerate their intellectually dishonest bullshit.

But you've missed the point about what we want. Tolerance is not what progressivism is about. It's about justice. I have no interest in tolerating apologists for the virulent racist misogynist fascist idiocy that we see taking hold of every part of the Republican party. So stop thinking that you can win any points by saying "well dang these liberals say they want tolerance but they won't tolerate ME."

Post 562 Madgeylou

I think you are a little too extreme for me. I realistically can't see us on agreeing to much and I have already explained my points and apologized for my transgression. It's time to move on.

Kris and I have moved on?

There is no “Kris and I.”

No.

You apologized. You think.

You also think that is all you need to do, and we all must smile and forget.

Madgeylou was the person you denigrated, don’t forget, when you condescendingly guessed she was a “feeler,” rather than a “thinker.”

Madgeylou is under no obligation to accept your apology.

Especially when you never apologized to her.

Especially when you take the first opportunity to denigrate her again.

Versatile

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #782 on: March 09, 2019, 07:04:23 PM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology

I don’t. It’s a bullshit apology that means nothing and even has a built-in insult. No one misconstrued anything. Versatile’s statement WAS latent sexism. I mean, if it’s latent then it makes sense that Versatile might not be aware of the sexism in it, but it was definitely sexist.

So instead of getting defensive, the proper response here should be something like “thanks for pointing out the sexist spinach in my teeth because I didn’t see it, which means I couldn’t address it, but now I can. My statement upheld the sexist idea that women are weak thinkers and that is not a belief that I want to perpetuate in the world. I apologize and I will learn from this and do better.” 

It’s not rocket science, but very few people seem capable of doing this. If Versatile is capable of it, I will be pleasantly surprised, but I’m not holding my breath.

Kris and I have moved on, and I was going to invite you to the beer summit too but no more. I went back and read some of the stuff you posted and this part really stuck out:

"Also, you misunderstand what progressivism is about. I'm not at all interested in "tolerance" so I'm not sure why conservatives keep bringing it up as, I dunno, something they see as intellectually dishonest or something? Because we won't tolerate their intellectually dishonest bullshit.

But you've missed the point about what we want. Tolerance is not what progressivism is about. It's about justice. I have no interest in tolerating apologists for the virulent racist misogynist fascist idiocy that we see taking hold of every part of the Republican party. So stop thinking that you can win any points by saying "well dang these liberals say they want tolerance but they won't tolerate ME."

Post 562 Madgeylou

I think you are a little too extreme for me. I realistically can't see us on agreeing to much and I have already explained my points and apologized for my transgression. It's time to move on.

Kris and I have moved on?

There is no “Kris and I.”

No.

You apologized. You think.

You also think that is all you need to do, and we all must smile and forget.

Madgeylou was the person you denigrated, don’t forget, when you condescendingly guessed she was a “feeler,” rather than a “thinker.”

Madgeylou is under no obligation to accept your apology.

Especially when you never apologized to her.

Especially when you take the first opportunity to denigrate her again.

Well I've moved on and have lost interest in this conversation. You two do what you want. And I hold no ill will or hostile feelings to either of you. For the record though, I think both of us could have a hell of a conversation.

Kris

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #783 on: March 09, 2019, 07:08:08 PM »
But it doesn't change the fact that I was unfairly attacked by Kris.

I see that.

From your perspective.

From hers, I don't think she sees it as unfairly attacking you.

And yes, that's where understanding can't be met.

I appreciate your apology

I don’t. It’s a bullshit apology that means nothing and even has a built-in insult. No one misconstrued anything. Versatile’s statement WAS latent sexism. I mean, if it’s latent then it makes sense that Versatile might not be aware of the sexism in it, but it was definitely sexist.

So instead of getting defensive, the proper response here should be something like “thanks for pointing out the sexist spinach in my teeth because I didn’t see it, which means I couldn’t address it, but now I can. My statement upheld the sexist idea that women are weak thinkers and that is not a belief that I want to perpetuate in the world. I apologize and I will learn from this and do better.” 

It’s not rocket science, but very few people seem capable of doing this. If Versatile is capable of it, I will be pleasantly surprised, but I’m not holding my breath.

Kris and I have moved on, and I was going to invite you to the beer summit too but no more. I went back and read some of the stuff you posted and this part really stuck out:

"Also, you misunderstand what progressivism is about. I'm not at all interested in "tolerance" so I'm not sure why conservatives keep bringing it up as, I dunno, something they see as intellectually dishonest or something? Because we won't tolerate their intellectually dishonest bullshit.

But you've missed the point about what we want. Tolerance is not what progressivism is about. It's about justice. I have no interest in tolerating apologists for the virulent racist misogynist fascist idiocy that we see taking hold of every part of the Republican party. So stop thinking that you can win any points by saying "well dang these liberals say they want tolerance but they won't tolerate ME."

Post 562 Madgeylou

I think you are a little too extreme for me. I realistically can't see us on agreeing to much and I have already explained my points and apologized for my transgression. It's time to move on.

Kris and I have moved on?

There is no “Kris and I.”

No.

You apologized. You think.

You also think that is all you need to do, and we all must smile and forget.

Madgeylou was the person you denigrated, don’t forget, when you condescendingly guessed she was a “feeler,” rather than a “thinker.”

Madgeylou is under no obligation to accept your apology.

Especially when you never apologized to her.

Especially when you take the first opportunity to denigrate her again.

Well I've moved on and have lost interest in this conversation. You two do what you want. And I hold no ill will or hostile feelings to either of you. For the record though, I think both of us could have a hell of a conversation.

Sure.

You’ve moved on.

Having learned essentially nothing.

Madgeylou was correct in her remarks.

The fact you took the first opportunity to disparage her again tells me everything I need to know about your “apology.”
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 09:04:23 AM by Kris »

Davnasty

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #784 on: March 09, 2019, 09:30:55 PM »
https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

That is awesome. Interestingly my assessment that I am on the left is spot on. I'm on the bottom left of that Compass. That was good. I think that there are a lot of posters on this thread that are way way to the left and maybe authoritarian rather than libertarian as I am and that is why we clash.

-4.38/-5.74

This explains why we just can't see eye to eye :)

ETA: I think there were a few loaded questions in that survey but overall it's a useful tool. I'll try to look at it a little more closely when I'm not on a tablet. Might be worth making a new thread to share?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 09:40:51 PM by Dabnasty »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #785 on: March 09, 2019, 10:21:44 PM »
https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

That is awesome. Interestingly my assessment that I am on the left is spot on. I'm on the bottom left of that Compass. That was good. I think that there are a lot of posters on this thread that are way way to the left and maybe authoritarian rather than libertarian as I am and that is why we clash.

-4.38/-5.74

This explains why we just can't see eye to eye :)

ETA: I think there were a few loaded questions in that survey but overall it's a useful tool. I'll try to look at it a little more closely when I'm not on a tablet. Might be worth making a new thread to share?

How funny is this. My expectation is that a lot of people I don't agree with me are authoritarian and I'm not but geez we are close.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 12:50:21 AM by steveo »

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #786 on: March 10, 2019, 08:11:18 AM »
https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

That is awesome. Interestingly my assessment that I am on the left is spot on. I'm on the bottom left of that Compass. That was good. I think that there are a lot of posters on this thread that are way way to the left and maybe authoritarian rather than libertarian as I am and that is why we clash.

-4.38/-5.74

This explains why we just can't see eye to eye :)

ETA: I think there were a few loaded questions in that survey but overall it's a useful tool. I'll try to look at it a little more closely when I'm not on a tablet. Might be worth making a new thread to share?

How funny is this. My expectation is that a lot of people I don't agree with me are authoritarian and I'm not but geez we are close.

Not being a social science type I am just guessing, but I think how we answer is filtered through our view of society.  I know there were questions where I was not really happy with any of the choices for answers.                                                                                         I am not at all sure that  say, an American, a Canadian, a Swede and an Australian would actually have roughly the same political views even if they ended up at about the same place on the graph.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #787 on: March 10, 2019, 08:21:59 AM »
https://www.politicalcompass.org/                                                                                                 

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

That is awesome. Interestingly my assessment that I am on the left is spot on. I'm on the bottom left of that Compass. That was good. I think that there are a lot of posters on this thread that are way way to the left and maybe authoritarian rather than libertarian as I am and that is why we clash.

-4.38/-5.74

This explains why we just can't see eye to eye :)

ETA: I think there were a few loaded questions in that survey but overall it's a useful tool. I'll try to look at it a little more closely when I'm not on a tablet. Might be worth making a new thread to share?

How funny is this. My expectation is that a lot of people I don't agree with me are authoritarian and I'm not but geez we are close.

Not being a social science type I am just guessing, but I think how we answer is filtered through our view of society.  I know there were questions where I was not really happy with any of the choices for answers.                                                                                         I am not at all sure that  say, an American, a Canadian, a Swede and an Australian would actually have roughly the same political views even if they ended up at about the same place on the graph.

Yes, and it has always struck me how conservative most US people appear to the rest of the world. Our mainstream liberals would be center right most places.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #788 on: March 10, 2019, 09:20:47 AM »

Not being a social science type I am just guessing, but I think how we answer is filtered through our view of society.  I know there were questions where I was not really happy with any of the choices for answers.                                                                                         I am not at all sure that  say, an American, a Canadian, a Swede and an Australian would actually have roughly the same political views even if they ended up at about the same place on the graph.

Yes, and it has always struck me how conservative most US people appear to the rest of the world. Our mainstream liberals would be center right most places.

Exactly.  Our Liberal Party is basically centrist, the NDP are our left.  And our Liberals are definitely more left than your Democrats.  Our right has gotten a lot more right though.   Provincially (Ontario) they are to the right socially, not financially, they are still perfectly happy to spend money, or more accurately, to give big tax breaks to corporations and let the tax income dwindle and support people less.  The issues with the autism funding are a clear indicator of prioritizes.  Withdrawal of funding for alternate energy and promised support for Francophones is another.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #789 on: March 10, 2019, 02:28:16 PM »
The poor/middle class voters in 2016 were presented with 2 choices, Clinton or Trump. 

Trump is a liar, but he promised to keep out some of the illegal competition via a wall and policy (maybe a lie), keep factory jobs (big lie), and MAGA (whatever that means).

Clinton, on the other hand, referred to certain segments as deplorable and had numerous other skeletons in her closet. 

Those were the choices.  Were the ardent supporters of Trump misinformed?  Likely. 

Were the people who thought Trump the lesser of 2 evils misinformed?  I don't know.  When one of the candidates calls you names and the other promises jobs (even if he's lying)? 

I'm not arguing or cheerleading for Trump nor arguing against your disgust of him.  He's said some awful things.

I would have loved a third choice that stood a chance.

These are great points. I find it amazing that these are the candidates that were put up in America which is in reality the biggest democracy in the world. It doesn't say much for democracies does it.

In the context of this thread I think people should realise that people voted for Trump because they thought he was more likely to help fix problems that they can see.

Another point I'd make is that the concept of left and right and liberal and conservative are today very fluid. I find if interesting that people who are conservative or liberal would actually believe in protectionist policies or big governments. I think both sides are now much more aligned to these ideals. I think we are moving away from free markets/small governments into a different era when I think all the evidence points out that free markets and small governments work best. Trump to me is definitely not into free markets and small governments.

I have no interest in getting involved in this thread, other than to fact check this comment which I believe to be wrong.

On any objective measure, India is by far and away the largest democracy in the world.

Carry on folks.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #790 on: March 11, 2019, 07:29:14 AM »
Economic Left/Right: -6.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.18

Well, I am close to being Gandhi.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #791 on: March 11, 2019, 08:18:10 AM »
Economic Left/Right: -3.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36


Slightly to the left and about halfway from center to libertarian.  Sounds about right.  I think people should be able to do what they want unless what they want is to be jerks to others.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #792 on: March 11, 2019, 08:20:13 AM »
-.88, +.31.  I always thought I was a moderate republican.  I thought I would be more to the right and more liberetarian.  Anyone think this quiz leans left?

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #793 on: March 11, 2019, 08:23:08 AM »
Economic Left/Right: -7.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.21

Cool, I'm a small government communist.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #794 on: March 11, 2019, 08:27:34 AM »
Economic Left/Right: -2.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.77

I'm not surprised on the Libertarian portion of the scale, but I'd have expected to land more to the right economically, being generally a fan of free markets and global trade (when these can be restrained by ethical policies).

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #795 on: March 11, 2019, 08:52:13 AM »
Anyone think this quiz leans left?

« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 09:07:34 AM by arebelspy »
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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #796 on: March 11, 2019, 09:05:22 AM »
Left Libertarian.

Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.36
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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #797 on: March 11, 2019, 12:47:29 PM »

This is the first question:


"If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations."


Maybe this is where someone could view this as a left-leaning questionnaire out of the gate. It also had race superiority questions.

To be fair, I didn't take the test ( it wouldn't let me past page 1) because it looks somewhat arbitrary and I don't think I would trust the results. They also state that the results are completely anonymous and not catalogued but then who's to say? The internet never lies right?

It kind of reminded me of a Senate race survey I took for my state after I foolishly agreed to answer this lady's questions who had called me. I had to stop her because all of the questions were skewed and extremely situational. I explained to her I couldn't answer without context. It seemed to me they had a result in mind and they wanted to verify it, with the phone survey as proof. I wanted to explain to her the only people that would answer these questions were people that supported the candidate the questionnaire favored. There are so many manipulations out there that I am leery of these so-called neutral third parties.


 

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #798 on: March 11, 2019, 01:24:58 PM »

This is the first question:


"If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations."


Maybe this is where someone could view this as a left-leaning questionnaire out of the gate. It also had race superiority questions.

To be fair, I didn't take the test ( it wouldn't let me past page 1) because it looks somewhat arbitrary and I don't think I would trust the results. They also state that the results are completely anonymous and not catalogued but then who's to say? The internet never lies right?

It kind of reminded me of a Senate race survey I took for my state after I foolishly agreed to answer this lady's questions who had called me. I had to stop her because all of the questions were skewed and extremely situational. I explained to her I couldn't answer without context. It seemed to me they had a result in mind and they wanted to verify it, with the phone survey as proof. I wanted to explain to her the only people that would answer these questions were people that supported the candidate the questionnaire favored. There are so many manipulations out there that I am leery of these so-called neutral third parties.


 

In my opninion, the test was garbage. In questionaiires, the results obtained are largely a function of what questions are asked and HOW they are phrased. In this particular test, I felt very uncomfortable with the way they were phrased. As if I couldnt fit into either box they were trying to unnaturally squeeze me in to. I dont know what validation testing was done with this test but I honestly couldnt answer many questions properly. I also did not like the way many were phrased. Garbage in / garbage out.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #799 on: March 11, 2019, 01:41:01 PM »


My "true" views are very strongly libertarian, but almost no one I know shares my views, so I've gotten used to listening to other viewpoints and trying to understand why they may be right or at least more workable in theory than mine.

 As  a reactionary  I understand that I am among a  population   that occupies a tiny sliver  of the political spectrum. My core belief of government's function  aligns squarely  with  Justice Brewer's. He delivered  the dissent in Budd.


Budd v. New York (1892)


"The paternal theory of government is to me odious. The utmost possible liberty to the individual, and the fullest possible protection to him and his property, is both the limitation and duty of government." MR. JUSTICE BREWER