Author Topic: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?  (Read 64536 times)

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #550 on: March 06, 2019, 11:58:25 PM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 12:26:02 AM by steveo »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #551 on: March 07, 2019, 12:07:03 AM »
Quote
I find it sexist and racist to suggest

I'm curious how you define sexism and racism. There seems to be two views. I personally define both terms to imply a belief of superiority of a sex or race over another; since I don't feel this definition fairly characterizes me (or even other posters on this thread), I take it as a juvenile insult. However, I do posit there are some differences between sexes and races (when looking at statistics of the whole populations), and maybe this is the criteria you are using to judge me, the observation of differences.

Do you believe that a particular race has behavioral traits that are different from other races?

This is a complex question. There are probably not really natural or genetic differences but there are cultural differences. I'll give some examples - Chinese people often are good businessmen, like to gamble and can be pushy and blunt. It's a cultural issue. Korean people are often tough. Fillipino people like to sing and dance.

I have friends and relationships with people from all these demographic groups.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 12:21:45 AM by steveo »

steveo

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #552 on: March 07, 2019, 12:09:02 AM »
What conservatives don't seem to understand - if the present system is unequal/racist/sexist/whatever and you don't want the present system to change (ie, you want to "conserve it") then you are in fact condoning and enabling sexism/racism/etc. 

The white supremacists are not the problem.  YOU are.  The silent, comfortable center-right.


I think you are convinced that center/right people don't want to change the system or don't recognize any issues that affect women, minorities, etc.  What I think you are missing is that the debate is really about HOW we progress and change.  You have allowed yourself to believe that all these people are seriously supporting or at least not fighting against racism, sexism, etc.  That's just not true.

For example.  We all want to eliminate poverty.  One side might suggest more governmental programs, regulations, higher minimum wages, etc.  The other side believes that the free market and competition works better, and it's better for the government to get out of the way.

So what happens?  One side claims the other just wants massive governmental control and communism, the other side claims the other is racist and hates minorities who are disproportionately impoverished.

How the fuck we get to that point is remarkable.  Everyone talks in extremes.  Both sides.  It's our reality TV era, more drama the better.  Why we can't just discuss the actual issues and different views on how to solve them, it's insults and name calling.

Exactly. There is a middle ground and I'm there but even trying to state this is so hard.

I think tyort1 point though is really important to grasp.

What conservatives don't seem to understand - if the present system is unequal/racist/sexist/whatever and you don't want the present system to change (ie, you want to "conserve it") then you are in fact condoning and enabling sexism/racism/etc. 

The white supremacists are not the problem.  YOU are.  The silent, comfortable center-right.

It's interesting to read that comment. It shows such a totalitarian attitude. Your with us or against us. My opinion is that attitudes like this make it impossible to have a reasonable discussion especially on societal issues which aren't black and white such as the ones we are discussing in this thread.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 03:52:55 AM by steveo »

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #553 on: March 07, 2019, 05:21:57 AM »

MOD NOTE: Just FYI it was me, arebelspy--not the moderator who has participated in this discussion--that banned the user for trolling. We try not to moderate discussions we participate in. The account in question has been linked to multiple other accounts that were previously banned for trolling. Anyone is free to have their opinion on here. However, there's a big difference between engaging in a discussion and selectively replying, ignoring posters' comments/statistics/studies and continuing to insist on the opposite with nothing to back it up just to rile people up. There is a benefit to the community for a diversity of opinions. There is no benefit to the community to those posts that don't engage in good faith, despite the community's patience. Not posting this as a reply in thread, but directly here so people can read this response, and to not have this in my unread replies.

PM me or any other moderator with any concerns.  Cheers!



arebelspy,

When you get 15 responses back, it's not selectively responding, it's doing your best to respond to as many as possible.  To me, when I post something asking for some racism examples and 10 people respond back with racism examples, I tackled a couple of them, thinking that would be sufficient to keep the conversation going.  As another poster just wrote, I have been nothing but respectful.  I'm actually unsure what stats you are referring to, sorry. You are calling me a troll, I'm not trolling.  You don't like the way I debate, sorry, but that's not trolling.  I'm not, in any way, just trying to rile people up.  But you all label me as a troll and then ban me?  What is "insisting on the opposite" even mean, anyway?  That I don't agree with others?  And considering the posters were engaging with me for pages and pages, that is odd behavior for a "troll" and certainly a benefit to the community.

It seems you don't like my writing style - which I admit I'm not a great writer/communicator.  But that doesn't equate to trolling.  It's something I try and work on, especially when others point out my errors.  I respond back with "I apologize, I should have written that another way."  It seems I'm one of the only flexible people here in my positions, but accused of being the least, which is weird.  I have conceded points, I have appealed for others to be tolerant and accepting of differing viewpoints, and overall very respectful.  Yet ban, ban, ban.  The optics of it is certainly that of trying to silence conservative opinions.  I'm not a victim, don't take it that way, but just pointing out how this looks.  As another poster pointed out, there is vitriol, nasty comments, personal attacks galore from other posters but no moderation at all.  Yet I'm the troll deserving of banishment?  It doesn't look right.  And really, a simple moderator warning that my posts weren't meeting your standards would have been sufficient.  I'm obviously not intentionally trying to "troll" anyone.

I would politely ask that you stop banning my account.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 05:29:36 AM by FireMeChow »

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #554 on: March 07, 2019, 05:25:11 AM »
What conservatives don't seem to understand - if the present system is unequal/racist/sexist/whatever and you don't want the present system to change (ie, you want to "conserve it") then you are in fact condoning and enabling sexism/racism/etc. 

The white supremacists are not the problem.  YOU are.  The silent, comfortable center-right.

It's interesting to read that comment. It shows such a totalitarian attitude. Your with us or against us. My opinion is that attitudes like this make it impossible to have a reasonable discussion especially on societal issues which aren't black and white such as the ones we are discussing in this thread.

This is basically what I've been trying, unsuccessfully to argue.  It's impossible to discuss societal issues when others have such black and white opinions.  It seems unhealthy to hold such a large portion of the population as "racism enablers".

MasterStache

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #555 on: March 07, 2019, 05:31:29 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #556 on: March 07, 2019, 05:44:03 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

If I told you about my real life experiences of racism, would you downplay them because I'm not a minority?  You have no idea about where I've grown up or how I was treated.  What managers have done, etc.  I don't really share my experiences because nobody seems to care when a non-minority faces racism, and I also don't have a victim mentality.

But I'll give you a few examples.

- As a teenager working at McDonalds, the African-American manager that came in would outright say "I only hire my people" and would not even bother interviewing white kids
- When I had dreams of becoming a police officer, it was nearly impossible to get an interview.  The departments heavily favor minority candidates (including women).  My sister immediately job offers from all over and still gets beneficial treatment when it comes to promotions.  She's very open about it being the departments need for minority hires.  That was almost 20 years ago now, and I DO see the benefit in minority hiring, but it was nearly impossible for me to get a job at the the time.
- Growing up, a close friend of mine was African-American.  He has since passed.  We were roommates in my early 20's, in a predominantly African neighborhood.  "Get out of the way, cracker" wasn't uncommon.  Cashiers at the store would be crazy friendly to the person in front of you, then not even look at you when it was your turn.  Etc.
- When I got out of high school, I was dating a hispanic girl who attended a majority African-American high school.  She would come home almost daily in tears for months because of the racist things, sexual things, etc. that were being said to her.  She had to change schools.

Plenty of others, mostly from when I was living with my friend in that neighborhood.

So, would you accept that some people have different experiences growing up that maybe don't fit the mainstream narrative?  I get it, nobody feels bad for the white dude.  I probably get it on a level that might surprise you.  I fully understand historic racism in this country and how that effects today.  Would you downplay MY experiences?

And I do agree with you, racism and sexism is everywhere. But from MY life experiences, I'd probably disagree with the narrative.  And understanding the true realities, that we are all equal, that we all can face discrimination, is a good step towards trying to solve the issues.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 05:56:23 AM by FireMeChow »

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #557 on: March 07, 2019, 05:55:43 AM »
This whole forum is weird because MMM talks of face-punches and not being a pussy but god-damn mention Trump and it's off to the races.

I've made this comment before, too.  It is a little weird as MMM writings are very much no excuses, don't be a pussy, face punch, no nonsense.  And when you factor in the cult mentality that Pete has gone for and built up, it does come off a bit odd that the forum feels so much different.  So many hyper sensitive people, which I'm fine with, but would appreciate THEIR understanding when others are maybe a little bit different.

madgeylou

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #558 on: March 07, 2019, 06:11:13 AM »
This whole forum is weird because MMM talks of face-punches and not being a pussy but god-damn mention Trump and it's off to the races.

I've made this comment before, too.  It is a little weird as MMM writings are very much no excuses, don't be a pussy, face punch, no nonsense.  And when you factor in the cult mentality that Pete has gone for and built up, it does come off a bit odd that the forum feels so much different.  So many hyper sensitive people, which I'm fine with, but would appreciate THEIR understanding when others are maybe a little bit different.

So why are you getting so in your feelings about people calling conservatives racist? Don't be a little bitch, man, stop making excuses for racism in our culture, take the criticism, and learn from it!

MOD NOTE: Forum rule #1, please.

ETA: Apologies! Was aiming for a hyperbolic tone for comedic effect but I guess I missed
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 08:36:48 AM by madgeylou »

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #559 on: March 07, 2019, 06:19:08 AM »
This whole forum is weird because MMM talks of face-punches and not being a pussy but god-damn mention Trump and it's off to the races.

I've made this comment before, too.  It is a little weird as MMM writings are very much no excuses, don't be a pussy, face punch, no nonsense.  And when you factor in the cult mentality that Pete has gone for and built up, it does come off a bit odd that the forum feels so much different.  So many hyper sensitive people, which I'm fine with, but would appreciate THEIR understanding when others are maybe a little bit different.

So why are you getting so in your feelings about people calling conservatives racist? Don't be a little bitch, man, stop making excuses for racism in our culture, take the criticism, and learn from it!

My feelings?  I am unoffendable.  I understand what "is offensive" but I don't get personally effected by it.  So I'm not caught up in feelings or anything of the sort.  I'm not making excuses for racism.  I simply disagree with the premise that conservatives are racists or at least enable racism.  I don't agree with you on that point.  I would say I'm more concerned about how dangerous it is to start labeling entire groups in derogatory terms.  Which does also come off odd from the progressive movement that praises tolerance and is extremely vocal about it.  Yet you can see in this thread scores of intolerance.  Funny enough, most of my posts have been about tolerance and empathy, which falls on deaf ears and I get called a troll then banned.

I would agree that most white racists tend to be conservative, but they don't get to "own" it any more than Antifa gets to own the progressive movement.  I don't think its appropriate to give racists and radicals that platform.  You will strongly disagree, you have made that clear with plenty of nasty comments, which is why I have generally chosen not to engage with you.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 06:24:02 AM by FireMeChow »

Nick_Miller

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #560 on: March 07, 2019, 06:31:31 AM »
When people argue the GOP isn't racist (or sexist, or bigoted against LGBTQ) I like to start with photos...

Here are the new House members for each party. And the "whole picture" is just as bad for the GOP, as 90% of their House members are white men.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/17b7f4c81f0722f4e0af64d96598ee9947dc5404/0_0_2473_3014/master/2473.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=c9e651f49ef361841956136091ce04a9

So...let's dig into this, shall we?

And how exactly does a party argue, "We aren't racist, or sexist, or bigoted against LGBTQ" when in 20 freakin' 19, they are still 90% straight white men? Doesn't that say something about how their policies are viewed by these other groups?

« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 06:33:31 AM by Nick_Miller »

MasterStache

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #561 on: March 07, 2019, 06:32:43 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

If I told you about my real life experiences of racism, would you downplay them because I'm not a minority?

You downplayed and excused Trump's obvious open racism. And now are playing the "I am the real victim" card because you didn't get hired at a burger joint! You gotta be fucking kidding me. Seriously dude, find a hobby. I am sure you have much better things to do with your time. Or maybe not.   

madgeylou

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #562 on: March 07, 2019, 06:41:28 AM »
My feelings?  I am unoffendable.  I understand what "is offensive" but I don't get personally effected by it.  So I'm not caught up in feelings or anything of the sort.  I'm not making excuses for racism.  I simply disagree with the premise that conservatives are racists or at least enable racism.  I don't agree with you on that point.  I would say I'm more concerned about how dangerous it is to start labeling entire groups in derogatory terms.  Which does also come off odd from the progressive movement that praises tolerance and is extremely vocal about it.  Yet you can see in this thread scores of intolerance.  Funny enough, most of my posts have been about tolerance and empathy, which falls on deaf ears and I get called a troll then banned.

I would agree that most white racists tend to be conservative, but they don't get to "own" it any more than Antifa gets to own the progressive movement.  I don't think its appropriate to give racists and radicals that platform.  You will strongly disagree, you have made that clear with plenty of nasty comments, which is why I have generally chosen not to engage with you.

Saying that you don't believe that the conservative movement in the US in 2019 embraces racism is like saying you don't believe climate change is a real thing. Social science literature and lots of people who have spent a lot more time investigating this than you -- who have facts and research at their disposal rather than a random feeling that something isn't fair -- disagree. So, sure, you get to have an opinion, but opinions not based in facts are worthless so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, you misunderstand what progressivism is about. I'm not at all interested in "tolerance" so I'm not sure why conservatives keep bringing it up as, I dunno, something they see as intellectually dishonest or something? Because we won't tolerate their intellectually dishonest bullshit.

But you've missed the point about what we want. Tolerance is not what progressivism is about. It's about justice. I have no interest in tolerating apologists for the virulent racist misogynist fascist idiocy that we see taking hold of every part of the Republican party. So stop thinking that you can win any points by saying "well dang these liberals say they want tolerance but they won't tolerate ME."

Can't say it better than this article: https://medium.com/@tuckerfitzgerald/intolerant-liberals-4ecd712ac939

"Progressives aren’t interested in diversity. We aren’t interested in inclusion. We aren’t interested in tolerance. The progressives I know give exactly zero shits about those things.

We have no interest in everyone getting treated the same. We have no interest in giving all ideas equal airtime. We have no interest in “tolerating” all beliefs. I don’t know where this fairy tale comes from, but it’s completely disconnected from every experience I’ve had with progressive liberal folks in my lifetime.

When conservatives cross their arms and glare and shout “It’s not fair! You’re supposed to welcome everyone but you aren’t being nice to me!” it stings about as much as if they shouted, “It’s not fair, you’re supposed to be wearing tutus and juggling flaming donuts!”

The progressive liberal agenda isn’t about being nice. It’s about confronting evil, violence, trauma, and death. It’s about acknowledging the ways systemic power, systemic oppression, systemic evil, work in our world around us. I’m not fighting for diversity. I’m not fighting for tolerance. I’m fighting to overturn horrific systems of dehumanizing oppression."


As for the ad hominem at the end of your post, let me just say that I'm far more concerned with standing up for the rights of people to exist / not be killed by cops / have access to economic opportunity / have access to clean water / not be unduly burdened by climate change than with whether or not you think my comments are nasty. Why would I care about your opinion of me? What could be less important?

madgeylou

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #563 on: March 07, 2019, 06:48:53 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

If I told you about my real life experiences of racism, would you downplay them because I'm not a minority?

You downplayed and excused Trump's obvious open racism. And now are playing the "I am the real victim" card because you didn't get hired at a burger joint! You gotta be fucking kidding me. Seriously dude, find a hobby. I am sure you have much better things to do with your time. Or maybe not.

Right? I seriously LOLed at that list. Half the items are about OTHER people's experiences of racism that Chow just saw. Plus I'm not sure how Chow survived being called a cracker and not being shown proper deference by black people in the neighborhood, nor how Chow ended up landing that job at McDonald's, facing such discrimination from a single black manager. Brutal stuff!

I imagine that if Chow or Steveo or any of the apologists for white supremacist patriarchy in this thread would actually take it upon themselves to learn anything about racism or sexism -- reading books, talking to people who've experienced these forces, talking to activists who have taken on the fight against these forces -- they would find themselves feeling pretty embarrassed about the asinine way they have behaved on this thread and likely in many other parts of their lives.

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #564 on: March 07, 2019, 06:51:15 AM »
When people argue the GOP isn't racist (or sexist, or bigoted against LGBTQ) I like to start with photos...

Here are the new House members for each party. And the "whole picture" is just as bad for the GOP, as 90% of their House members are white men.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/17b7f4c81f0722f4e0af64d96598ee9947dc5404/0_0_2473_3014/master/2473.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=c9e651f49ef361841956136091ce04a9

So...let's dig into this, shall we?

And how exactly does a party argue, "We aren't racist, or sexist, or bigoted against LGBTQ" when in 20 freakin' 19, they are still 90% straight white men? Doesn't that say something about how their policies are viewed by these other groups?

You aren't naming actual policies.  To me, you are doing the equivalent of what everyone here is accusing the president of doing by inferring a Mexican judge is biased because he is Mexican.  You are suggesting the GOP is "racist/sexist/bigoted" because they are mostly straight white men?  Is THAT not at least in the same ballpark as the racially insensitive comments you are accusing the conservative side of making? And yet, I wouldn't call you racist or suggest you are enabling racism, even though your comment seems to be the other side of the same coin.  Because I believe you have good intentions and within the context of your comment, I understand what you are saying.  I have no problem implying that fairness to EVERYONE.  Including the president.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 06:57:19 AM by FireMeChow »

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #565 on: March 07, 2019, 06:56:07 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

If I told you about my real life experiences of racism, would you downplay them because I'm not a minority?

You downplayed and excused Trump's obvious open racism. And now are playing the "I am the real victim" card because you didn't get hired at a burger joint! You gotta be fucking kidding me. Seriously dude, find a hobby. I am sure you have much better things to do with your time. Or maybe not.

Right? I seriously LOLed at that list. Half the items are about OTHER people's experiences of racism that Chow just saw. Plus I'm not sure how Chow survived being called a cracker and not being shown proper deference by black people in the neighborhood, nor how Chow ended up landing that job at McDonald's, facing such discrimination from a single black manager. Brutal stuff!

I imagine that if Chow or Steveo or any of the apologists for white supremacist patriarchy in this thread would actually take it upon themselves to learn anything about racism or sexism -- reading books, talking to people who've experienced these forces, talking to activists who have taken on the fight against these forces -- they would find themselves feeling pretty embarrassed about the asinine way they have behaved on this thread and likely in many other parts of their lives.

As I said, my experiences would be thoroughly discounted, and flat out mocked.  I'm not surprised at all and it's what I expected.  And then you hold high experiences of others that I need to accept as fact, take seriously, and don't dare question. You are so biased and hypocritical it's obnoxious.

Look at how nasty your comments are.  So I will again, go back to simply ignoring you.

madgeylou

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #566 on: March 07, 2019, 06:58:43 AM »
When people argue the GOP isn't racist (or sexist, or bigoted against LGBTQ) I like to start with photos...

Here are the new House members for each party. And the "whole picture" is just as bad for the GOP, as 90% of their House members are white men.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/17b7f4c81f0722f4e0af64d96598ee9947dc5404/0_0_2473_3014/master/2473.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=c9e651f49ef361841956136091ce04a9

So...let's dig into this, shall we?

And how exactly does a party argue, "We aren't racist, or sexist, or bigoted against LGBTQ" when in 20 freakin' 19, they are still 90% straight white men? Doesn't that say something about how their policies are viewed by these other groups?

You aren't naming actual policies.  To me, you are doing the equivalent of what everyone here is accusing the president of doing by inferring a Mexican judge is biased because he is Mexican.  You are suggesting the GOP is "racist/sexist/bigoted" because they are mostly straight white men?  Is THAT not at least in the same ballpark as the racially insensitive comments you are accusing the conservative side of making? And yet, I wouldn't call you racist or suggest you are enabling racism, even though your comment seems to be the other side of the same coin.  Because I believe you have good intentions.

Intentions do not matter. In the eyes of the law, they do, but in everyday life, if someone hits me with their car, I don't care if they meant to do it or not -- I'm equally injured either way.

Judgements need to be made on impact, not intention. The fact that in a country made up of a plurality of races, genders, classes, the GOP seems to only elect one small minority to represent their interests means that they have not reached out or done anything policy-wise to appeal to the plurality. That in and of itself is racism, regardless of intent.

http://www.aclrc.com/intention
The more you know!

madgeylou

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #567 on: March 07, 2019, 07:00:45 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

If I told you about my real life experiences of racism, would you downplay them because I'm not a minority?

You downplayed and excused Trump's obvious open racism. And now are playing the "I am the real victim" card because you didn't get hired at a burger joint! You gotta be fucking kidding me. Seriously dude, find a hobby. I am sure you have much better things to do with your time. Or maybe not.

Right? I seriously LOLed at that list. Half the items are about OTHER people's experiences of racism that Chow just saw. Plus I'm not sure how Chow survived being called a cracker and not being shown proper deference by black people in the neighborhood, nor how Chow ended up landing that job at McDonald's, facing such discrimination from a single black manager. Brutal stuff!

I imagine that if Chow or Steveo or any of the apologists for white supremacist patriarchy in this thread would actually take it upon themselves to learn anything about racism or sexism -- reading books, talking to people who've experienced these forces, talking to activists who have taken on the fight against these forces -- they would find themselves feeling pretty embarrassed about the asinine way they have behaved on this thread and likely in many other parts of their lives.

As I said, my experiences would be thoroughly discounted, and flat out mocked.  I'm not surprised at all and it's what I expected.  And then you hold high experiences of others that I need to accept as fact, take seriously, and don't dare question. You are so biased and hypocritical it's obnoxious.

Look at how nasty your comments are.  So I will again, go back to simply ignoring you.

LOL okay. It's hilarious to me that you think your "racist experiences" are on par with what actual people of color go through, but clearly I can't give you perspective or make you see reason. Ignore me, go back in your hidey hole, and pretend like you're not out of step with the evolving world around you. I'll see you in the streets.

Davnasty

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #568 on: March 07, 2019, 07:03:33 AM »
It's particularly offensive when someone1 has just taken 30 minutes to read a study in it's entirety, consider the confounding factors (which are generally addressed by the authors), made an honest effort to forget their biases, and come to the conclusion that maybe there's some evidence here that suggests the existence of societal unfairness. Then you come over the top and tell me I'm just not logical enough? Did you even read the study?2

I read that study and it was honestly hilarious in that the premise and conclusion were completely irrational. This was backed up by other posters who concurred that there was no proof whatsoever in that study.

Using studies is fine but my advice would be to use them in the right context. I tried to explain my proof of the matriarchy wasn't really proof but it was a hell of a lot more logically consistent than the message that was being provided to me.

Did you now? And which study would you be referring to?

2not referring to any specific study, asking this in a more general way. If you read the studies presented I think you would realize that the authors do their best to account for many of the confounding factors you use to negate their conclusions.

And since you mentioned trying to improve your communication I have a few suggestions. First, you could drop phrases like "honestly hilarious" and "completely irrational". Calling a study hilarious and irrational is not a productive way to discuss it. Picking out specific points and methods that you disagree with are. If the points you choose to critique have already been mentioned and adjusted for in the study, maybe you could then tell us why you don't think those adjustments were adequate.

At the very least you could drop the modifiers of "honestly" and "completely". Saying that the study is irrational rather than "completely irrational" would get your point across all the same and make it less frustrating to talk to you. I've often found that the less substance someone has in their thoughts the more modifiers they use. In turn, when I see someone using lots of these modifiers, my guards go up that maybe this person doesn't have a substantive argument but is just looking for a fight. If that is not the case, you'd be doing yourself a favor if you stopped using these modifiers.

MasterStache

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #569 on: March 07, 2019, 07:14:51 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

If I told you about my real life experiences of racism, would you downplay them because I'm not a minority?

You downplayed and excused Trump's obvious open racism. And now are playing the "I am the real victim" card because you didn't get hired at a burger joint! You gotta be fucking kidding me. Seriously dude, find a hobby. I am sure you have much better things to do with your time. Or maybe not.

Right? I seriously LOLed at that list. Half the items are about OTHER people's experiences of racism that Chow just saw. Plus I'm not sure how Chow survived being called a cracker and not being shown proper deference by black people in the neighborhood, nor how Chow ended up landing that job at McDonald's, facing such discrimination from a single black manager. Brutal stuff!

I imagine that if Chow or Steveo or any of the apologists for white supremacist patriarchy in this thread would actually take it upon themselves to learn anything about racism or sexism -- reading books, talking to people who've experienced these forces, talking to activists who have taken on the fight against these forces -- they would find themselves feeling pretty embarrassed about the asinine way they have behaved on this thread and likely in many other parts of their lives.

As I said, my experiences would be thoroughly discounted, and flat out mocked.  I'm not surprised at all and it's what I expected.  And then you hold high experiences of others that I need to accept as fact, take seriously, and don't dare question. You are so biased and hypocritical it's obnoxious.

Look at how nasty your comments are.  So I will again, go back to simply ignoring you.

Oh you mean like how you discounted open obvious racism by the POTUS? Yeah it really sucks having your experiences discounted and mocked doesn't it? Perhaps you should remember that next time you try to defend racism aimed at others. That's true hypocrisy. 

sherr

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #570 on: March 07, 2019, 07:18:00 AM »
But if you want my advice this game is pretty simple in the rules, but hard in the execution: Choose a spouse or partner very carefully, the kids come after a stable 2-person relationship, maintain stable employment until your financial goals are met and everything else are details related to your financial goals and individual circumstances. Vague enough for you? It's about tenacity and not eating the marshmallow right away really.

The marshmallow experiment is a particularly apt reference to make in this thread. Some people (not saying you do) use the results of the original experiment to demonstrate the racial inferiority of black kids' ability to delay gratification that then corresponds to not succeeding later in life. However the original study noted that the biggest difference between the two groups is whether or not the kids had fathers in the home, and follow-up studies have demonstrated that a much stronger link to whether (or how long) a kid is willing to wait for the larger reward is how much the kid trusts the researcher. If you don't actually believe that you'll get two marshmallows later, then of course you'd choose the one marshmallow now.

So it's not really because of race that the kids have different delayed-gratification thresholds, it's because of their lived experience. There can be a number of different effects that are all subconscious that play into the ultimate decision on whether to wait for two marshmallows or not. So if we live in a theoretical society that some level of systematic racism, let's say that makes it harder for blacks to find good jobs, more likely to turn to things like selling weed to make money, more likely to be heavily policed, more likely to be convicted than a white counterpart, and more likely to be sent away for a longer amount of time than a white counterpart, or even just something as simple as black kids being shown different levels of trust and respect by white adults, then that can all ripple down into their subconscious and affect their ability to delay gratification. Which then yes, affects how well they'll do in school and if they'll stay healthy and how well they'll progress in their careers.

So while "toughen up and don't eat the marshmallow" might be fine individual advice on how to win the game it doesn't really do anything to help with the situation of racial disparity / racism. The ripple-effect links have to somehow be broken first, and delayed gratification is only one of them.

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #571 on: March 07, 2019, 07:23:38 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

If I told you about my real life experiences of racism, would you downplay them because I'm not a minority?

You downplayed and excused Trump's obvious open racism. And now are playing the "I am the real victim" card because you didn't get hired at a burger joint! You gotta be fucking kidding me. Seriously dude, find a hobby. I am sure you have much better things to do with your time. Or maybe not.

Right? I seriously LOLed at that list. Half the items are about OTHER people's experiences of racism that Chow just saw. Plus I'm not sure how Chow survived being called a cracker and not being shown proper deference by black people in the neighborhood, nor how Chow ended up landing that job at McDonald's, facing such discrimination from a single black manager. Brutal stuff!

I imagine that if Chow or Steveo or any of the apologists for white supremacist patriarchy in this thread would actually take it upon themselves to learn anything about racism or sexism -- reading books, talking to people who've experienced these forces, talking to activists who have taken on the fight against these forces -- they would find themselves feeling pretty embarrassed about the asinine way they have behaved on this thread and likely in many other parts of their lives.

As I said, my experiences would be thoroughly discounted, and flat out mocked.  I'm not surprised at all and it's what I expected.  And then you hold high experiences of others that I need to accept as fact, take seriously, and don't dare question. You are so biased and hypocritical it's obnoxious.

Look at how nasty your comments are.  So I will again, go back to simply ignoring you.

Oh you mean like how you discounted open obvious racism by the POTUS? Yeah it really sucks having your experiences discounted and mocked doesn't it? Perhaps you should remember that next time you try to defend racism aimed at others. That's true hypocrisy.

You aren't making the point you think you are.  And I shared my experiences, knowing they would be mocked.  It doesn't suck at all.  I did it to prove a point, which has now been proven.  Thank you.  I don't expect any of you to recognize the hypocrisy at this point even though it couldn't be any more on full display.

And to be clear, the point I'm making is that we are all a little more similar than we think we are.  The things you all accuse me of, you are doing as well.  And we would be better served trying a little harder to empathize with others we don't agree with, try to understand where they are coming from, recognize we probably all believe the other person ignores the obvious, and maybe we can find a healthy middle ground.  I won't hold my breath.

FireMeChow

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #572 on: March 07, 2019, 07:27:11 AM »
But if you want my advice this game is pretty simple in the rules, but hard in the execution: Choose a spouse or partner very carefully, the kids come after a stable 2-person relationship, maintain stable employment until your financial goals are met and everything else are details related to your financial goals and individual circumstances. Vague enough for you? It's about tenacity and not eating the marshmallow right away really.

The marshmallow experiment is a particularly apt reference to make in this thread. Some people (not saying you do) use the results of the original experiment to demonstrate the racial inferiority of black kids' ability to delay gratification that then corresponds to not succeeding later in life. However the original study noted that the biggest difference between the two groups is whether or not the kids had fathers in the home, and follow-up studies have demonstrated that a much stronger link to whether (or how long) a kid is willing to wait for the larger reward is how much the kid trusts the researcher. If you don't actually believe that you'll get two marshmallows later, then of course you'd choose the one marshmallow now.

So it's not really because of race that the kids have different delayed-gratification thresholds, it's because of their lived experience. There can be a number of different effects that are all subconscious that play into the ultimate decision on whether to wait for two marshmallows or not. So if we live in a theoretical society that some level of systematic racism, let's say that makes it harder for blacks to find good jobs, more likely to turn to things like selling weed to make money, more likely to be heavily policed, more likely to be convicted than a white counterpart, and more likely to be sent away for a longer amount of time than a white counterpart, or even just something as simple as black kids being shown different levels of trust and respect by white adults, then that can all ripple down into their subconscious and affect their ability to delay gratification. Which then yes, affects how well they'll do in school and if they'll stay healthy and how well they'll progress in their careers.

So while "toughen up and don't eat the marshmallow" might be fine individual advice on how to win the game it doesn't really do anything to help with the situation of racial disparity / racism. The ripple-effect links have to somehow be broken first, and delayed gratification is only one of them.

This is a really great post.

Davnasty

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #573 on: March 07, 2019, 07:46:17 AM »

MOD NOTE: Just FYI it was me, arebelspy--not the moderator who has participated in this discussion--that banned the user for trolling. We try not to moderate discussions we participate in. The account in question has been linked to multiple other accounts that were previously banned for trolling. Anyone is free to have their opinion on here. However, there's a big difference between engaging in a discussion and selectively replying, ignoring posters' comments/statistics/studies and continuing to insist on the opposite with nothing to back it up just to rile people up. There is a benefit to the community for a diversity of opinions. There is no benefit to the community to those posts that don't engage in good faith, despite the community's patience. Not posting this as a reply in thread, but directly here so people can read this response, and to not have this in my unread replies.

PM me or any other moderator with any concerns.  Cheers!


I would politely ask that you stop banning my account.

I don't think you understand how this works.* The intention is to ban you, not your accounts. I don't know which account of yours was originally banned but based on timing I suspect it happened before you ever participated in this thread. If you wanted to not get banned again you should probably stop introducing your new accounts with "Hey everybody, so my account just got banned but I made this new one"

I'm picturing the guy who just got thrown out of the bar confidently striding back in with a fake mustache and complaining that the bouncer was a little rough on that last toss.

*Apologies to mods if I'm stating anything inaccurate here but this seems pretty logical, right?


MOD NOTE: I laughed. Sometimes it takes a few bannings before we get all the various IPs the trolls use. Thanks for those flagging the new accounts. It helps when they announce themselves, but only a little; they always out themselves anyways by using the same tactics--rude, refusal to engage in a debate on good terms, ignoring other posters' points/evidence/statistics, and posting inflammatory things just to get a rise out of people. It's amazing how long a single instigator can keep a community going on a particular topic. Hard for some people to not feed the trolls.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 08:25:29 AM by arebelspy »

MasterStache

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #574 on: March 07, 2019, 07:51:58 AM »

Re: steveo (and others like him), he seems to think that if there are no explicitly racist laws, that systemic racism doesn’t exist.  And, as I predicted, when presented with evidence that racism does exit he simply ignores it and digs his heels in.  Typical of his kind.  He’s the type of person that thinks “hey, I’M not racist, so therefore no one else is either.”  Or “Since I don’t see people in my immediate vicinity engage explicitly racist behavior, racism doesn’t exist.”

If I might quote myself from Page 5 of this thread, this is exactly what we've seen play out.  Downplay or deny actual evidence when it's presented and continue as if the "extreme left" is being silly. 

I will say this, it's been very interesting to see the "moderates" on the right twist themselves into knots trying to defend this guy.  Even if Trump said explicitly "Black people suck", these people would still say "well, there's nuance there" and "Hey, the world is a complicated place and he might be saying that for complicated reasons". 

No, the reason is not complicated.  It's simple.  It's obvious.  If you don't see it, it's because you don't WANT to see it.  Because it makes you uncomfortable for some reason (god knows why).  But there you have it. 

Put another way:

Random moderate conservative:  "I don't see that sexism/racism exists"

Several women:  "Here's examples of sexism that I've experienced directly".

Random moderate conservative:  "I still don't see that sexism/racism exists". 

It's rather breathtaking to watch this level of cognitive dissonance between their view of the world and the facts presented by others. 

So what will convince these "moderates"?  Nothing.  Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever convince them. As I stated previously theres no real value to discussing it with them, the only real thing that can be done is simply out-vote them and make the change over their self-imposed blindness.

This shows another issue. We are talking about society as a whole. Maybe sexism and bad behaviour will be wiped out completely but I doubt it. We have to take a general look at society. I have used examples of how I live in a multi-cultural and gender environment previously and that was apparently unacceptable to be used as proof.

Do you now believe that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance ? If we are to use your logic the answer has to be yes. If you believe no then you are cherry picking your idea. Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance and maybe it is a difference of opinion.

My advice to you is to learn to accept that people can have different opinions rather than if people don't believe the same thing as you they suffer from cognitive dissonance. It's just as likely that you are the one suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Come on dude, really? Racism and sexism playout in so many people's lives. That's not cognitive dissonance. That's fucking reality dude. Stop trying to downplay real life experiences. And you wonder why people don't respond positively towards you?? I guess maybe it's cognitive dissonance that my own racist grandfather refused to watch basketball because "too many black people (except he didn't use the term "black people") played." Or another family member was fired from his job because he unfairly treated black people. Yep, the "n" word was just a regular old common word used in my house. It's so common to these family members that one was banned from Facebook for using the "n" word. Guess what? They all see Trump as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Know why I don't get along with these conservatives? Because they (not me) decided that since I don't behave in this manner then I must be some liberal communist who wants to give everyone handouts. Not ironically I did get along with them somewhat while Obama was President. I believe having someone in power that espouses those horrible views has given them motivation to no longer keep them bottled up.

Yeah it must be great growing up and living in a perfect bubble where there is no sexism and racism. But that shit is everywhere, even in middle class suburban white households.

If I told you about my real life experiences of racism, would you downplay them because I'm not a minority?

You downplayed and excused Trump's obvious open racism. And now are playing the "I am the real victim" card because you didn't get hired at a burger joint! You gotta be fucking kidding me. Seriously dude, find a hobby. I am sure you have much better things to do with your time. Or maybe not.

Right? I seriously LOLed at that list. Half the items are about OTHER people's experiences of racism that Chow just saw. Plus I'm not sure how Chow survived being called a cracker and not being shown proper deference by black people in the neighborhood, nor how Chow ended up landing that job at McDonald's, facing such discrimination from a single black manager. Brutal stuff!

I imagine that if Chow or Steveo or any of the apologists for white supremacist patriarchy in this thread would actually take it upon themselves to learn anything about racism or sexism -- reading books, talking to people who've experienced these forces, talking to activists who have taken on the fight against these forces -- they would find themselves feeling pretty embarrassed about the asinine way they have behaved on this thread and likely in many other parts of their lives.

As I said, my experiences would be thoroughly discounted, and flat out mocked.  I'm not surprised at all and it's what I expected.  And then you hold high experiences of others that I need to accept as fact, take seriously, and don't dare question. You are so biased and hypocritical it's obnoxious.

Look at how nasty your comments are.  So I will again, go back to simply ignoring you.

Oh you mean like how you discounted open obvious racism by the POTUS? Yeah it really sucks having your experiences discounted and mocked doesn't it? Perhaps you should remember that next time you try to defend racism aimed at others. That's true hypocrisy.

You aren't making the point you think you are. 

You are failing to note the bolded above. You just aren't making the connection.

On a side note, I don't know what's going on in your life that has you so hung up on convincing people of "your side." I mean you are creating multiple sock accounts to continue arguing with people you don't even know. (admittedly I am probably stupid for continuing to engage) Is it really that important in your life? If you want to browse around perhaps check out the "circle of control" post by MMM. It's fantastic and offers a great outlook on how to handle things beyond your own control. You appear desperately to want to be taken seriously that it seems to be consuming you. Good luck man!     
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 08:03:17 AM by MasterStache »

Boofinator

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #575 on: March 07, 2019, 07:54:36 AM »
Quote
I find it sexist and racist to suggest

I'm curious how you define sexism and racism. There seems to be two views. I personally define both terms to imply a belief of superiority of a sex or race over another; since I don't feel this definition fairly characterizes me (or even other posters on this thread), I take it as a juvenile insult. However, I do posit there are some differences between sexes and races (when looking at statistics of the whole populations), and maybe this is the criteria you are using to judge me, the observation of differences.

Do you believe that a particular race has behavioral traits that are different from other races?

Genetic behavioral traits or cultural behavioral traits? (Speaking of course on statistics and not on individuals.) Yes, to probably both, but the genetic part is insignificant to their value as human beings, so it is irrelevant. The cultural part is relevant, and as I said some of it may be vestiges from slavery and other forms of institutional racism.

What natural genetic behavioral traits do you attribute to black people, asian people, and white people?

That is a loaded question. But I'd be willing to bet if you looked for a statistic with P<0.001 difference between races for every behavioral trait in existence (and somehow made it a double-blind experiment for that entire population and eliminated the environmental confounding variables) that something would pop up. But since this is impossible, it's useless to conjecture. But I stand by my statement that immediately followed: whether or not this is true, it is irrelevant.

Not a loaded question at all.  You claimed that there were probably natural genetic behavioral traits.  I was wondering if you had evidence of this.

Absolutely not. That's why my sentence used the modifying word 'probably'. I'd be surprised if the inverse were true. Mathlete keeps citing his skills in statistics, so tell us what is the probability that a group of people who largely separated from another 100,000 years ago or so, mated with other species/races who had separated 500,000 years ago or so, and were exposed to different environmental stimuli, when observed over populations of 1 billion people or so, would not indicate some minor behavioral difference at roughly one-one-thousandth of a standard deviation?

Here's my stab at the math, feel free to check. To determine whether any individual behavioral trait differed from another at P<0.001, we would need to perform a two-sided z-test (or a t-test with n=1 billion) at Z(Φ=0.9995)≈3.29. The absolute value of the test statistic (the difference in means divided by the standard error (standard deviation divided by the square root of the sample size of each population times the square root of 2)) would then be compared to this Z-value. The difference that would need to exceed this Z-value to reject the null hypothesis is, by my calculation, 1/6795 times the standard deviation. Close enough to my original low-ball estimate. This would need to be the case for every behavioral trait analyzed. And this is just measuring means; we would also want to consider various percentiles or even the standard deviations themselves.

Obviously, this is an exercise in semantics because we could never possibly measure the whole population, but more importantly there are certainly environmental confounding variables that make any test for genetic differences practically null and void unless we can start treating our subjects like lab rats.
Please provide your math for determining your sample size. You do not need 1 billion, and if you understand sample sizes and the use of sample compared to population (basic in a lower division undergrad stats class) you would know that.

I'm well aware of using sample size to determine power for experiments. Here, we're talking differences in populations, so it would be fair to assume the maximum sample size would be the entire population. In reality, we couldn't even have a sample size of one per race because it would be unethical. Or would you use your undergraduate statistics to provide a better definition for differences between two racial populations?
Actually, we compare two populations using representive samples within that population all the time, that is the basis of research, the ability to use a representative sample of the population and manipulate that and compare against another group.
And good job trying to insult my knowledge of statistics given that the information you seem to be missing is lower division undergrad statistics. Just because that is the part you don't understand does not mean the person calling you on it is not knowledgeable about it. I've published in peer reviewed journals, I've done sample size calculations for major R1 grants plus yes, undergrad and graduate statistics. But you know what, none of that matters, because what you are posting is basic stats 101 and you don't get it.
Also there is no ethical issues with looking at differences in demographics.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

Tell me exactly what part don't I get. Yes, I'm familiar with statistical inference. What I am trying to say, is first, if we are going to truly parse genetics from environmental factors we'd really need to have a controlled experiment (we can't look at an identical twins study, for example, which keeps genetics the same but changes environment, we need the contrapositive, which is damn near impossible short of an ethics breach), and second, if we were to perform an experiment to determine the difference between populations of a certain characteristic, we choose a sample size to determine how much power we want our experiment to have, with the most possible power being attained by performing an experiment on the entire population (ergo my original sample size).

Again, please do share which part of undergraduate statistics I don't get. It's easy to say "you don't get it, I'm published, etc.", but after I answered your original question (which I did leave out my logic in my original explanation, so it was a fair question), you somehow claim I am insulting your intelligence, but yet not explaining how I'm insulting you.

ETA: Technically, if using the entire population we would call a measured value of that population a parameter rather than a statistic, but this would be nitpicking, since presumably new members of the population are being born and old members are dying every day, thus any snapshot of the whole population would still be a statistic of the population as it changes over time.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 08:44:57 AM by Boofinator »

Boofinator

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #576 on: March 07, 2019, 08:26:54 AM »
Quote
I find it sexist and racist to suggest

I'm curious how you define sexism and racism. There seems to be two views. I personally define both terms to imply a belief of superiority of a sex or race over another; since I don't feel this definition fairly characterizes me (or even other posters on this thread), I take it as a juvenile insult. However, I do posit there are some differences between sexes and races (when looking at statistics of the whole populations), and maybe this is the criteria you are using to judge me, the observation of differences.

Do you believe that a particular race has behavioral traits that are different from other races?

I thought of an example this morning that might fit what you're asking. Again, I'm speaking in terms of statistics, not a monolithic difference between races (as I've mentioned, the differences intra-race dwarf that of the differences inter-race). Susceptibility to alcohol dependence has been shown to be affected by several genes that are predominant in different races and ethnicities: https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh40/152-160.htm.

MasterStache

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #577 on: March 07, 2019, 08:33:32 AM »

MOD NOTE: Just FYI it was me, arebelspy--not the moderator who has participated in this discussion--that banned the user for trolling. We try not to moderate discussions we participate in. The account in question has been linked to multiple other accounts that were previously banned for trolling. Anyone is free to have their opinion on here. However, there's a big difference between engaging in a discussion and selectively replying, ignoring posters' comments/statistics/studies and continuing to insist on the opposite with nothing to back it up just to rile people up. There is a benefit to the community for a diversity of opinions. There is no benefit to the community to those posts that don't engage in good faith, despite the community's patience. Not posting this as a reply in thread, but directly here so people can read this response, and to not have this in my unread replies.

PM me or any other moderator with any concerns.  Cheers!


I would politely ask that you stop banning my account.

I don't think you understand how this works.* The intention is to ban you, not your accounts. I don't know which account of yours was originally banned but based on timing I suspect it happened before you ever participated in this thread. If you wanted to not get banned again you should probably stop introducing your new accounts with "Hey everybody, so my account just got banned but I made this new one"

I'm picturing the guy who just got thrown out of the bar confidently striding back in with a fake mustache and complaining that the bouncer was a little rough on that last toss.

*Apologies to mods if I'm stating anything inaccurate here but this seems pretty logical, right?


MOD NOTE: I laughed. Sometimes it takes a few bannings before we get all the various IPs the trolls use. Thanks for those flagging the new accounts. It helps when they announce themselves, but only a little; they always out themselves anyways by using the same tactics--rude, refusal to engage in a debate on good terms, ignoring other posters' points/evidence/statistics, and posting inflammatory things just to get a rise out of people. It's amazing how long a single instigator can keep a community going on a particular topic. Hard for some people to not feed the trolls.

Hangs head in shame )-:

shenlong55

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #578 on: March 07, 2019, 09:03:28 AM »
Since he refuses to explain what he is referring to when he uses the word patriarchy, I'm pretty sure he is consistently and purposefully arguing against a straw man even after multiple people point it out to him.  To me, that's pretty clearly trolling.

I am definitely not trolling and I don't understand why this is such a big deal however I'll call the patriarchy western society. That is what I believe we are discussing.

I quite like that definition on wikipedia but I don't believe you can really call western society a patriarchy:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

Quote
Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property. Some patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage.

It'd be interesting to understand how other people define western society and the patriarchy. I think that there is a difference between stating a society is patriarchal and stating that western society is the patriarchy. I think the idea of the patriarchy is too extreme and doesn't really reflect western society as it exists today.

It's such a big deal because in just about every reply that I see from you mentioning the patriarchy you make it sound like your arguing against someone who has asserted that "there is a cabal of men secretly influencing the cultures of the world in order to intentionally harm/hold back women and minorities".  Since I'm fairly certain that nobody that you've been talking to has asserted that, it does nothing at all to disprove what they've said.  Instead it just shows either how little you understand the opposing point of view or that you are purposefully misinterpreting your opponents argument in order to get a rise.  Refusing to engage with those who are trying to point this out just reinforces the idea that you have no interest in understanding the opposing viewpoint and are just here to talk at people to make whatever point it is that you think your making.

As a side note, I'd like to ask the conservatives in this thread a serious question.  Do you guys really expect liberals to take complaints like this seriously while, to the best of my knowledge, your side is still raging against "PC culture"?  Can you really blame them if they finally got your message and decided maybe it really isn't worth the extra effort that they have to expend to ensure that they're not offending certain people?  I get that you don't like the group that they've chosen to apply the message to, but really...?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 09:07:12 AM by shenlong55 »

partgypsy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #579 on: March 07, 2019, 09:08:49 AM »
I wasn't going to respond again to this thread because it had gotten so hijacked.

I just wanted to post that (bottom on the post) a researcher is researching how racism and racial resentment is bad - not just for minorities, but for the people who are the "aggrieved whites". I saw it in the town I moved in; way back when the ruling came down that parks and swimming pools needed to be racially integrated, rather than integrating the city closed the public pools. There are now public pools but there was decades poor children neither black NOR white had access to swimming facilities.

There are many areas in the "heartland" where policies that are done out of racial resentment or fear, is making white people have poorer health, education, and life expectancy. Kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

"Physician and sociologist Jonathan M. Metzl traveled across America's heartland examining the politics of racial resentment and its impact on public health. He uncovered how racial anxieties led to the repeal of gun control laws in Missouri, stymied the Affordable Care Act in Tennessee, and fueled massive cuts to schools and social services in Kansas. Contrary to politicians' promises, these policies made life sicker, harder and shorter in the very populations they purported to aid." 
 
 

Sailor Sam

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #580 on: March 07, 2019, 09:21:35 AM »
Alright this is pointless. I have to say though, that's it's pretty damn funny this chewy person keeps reopening accounts. Keep it up kid. They'll find a way to block you permanently soon enough.

On a serious note though, your moderator banned someone for what? Does that give anybody pause? It should. Tow the line everyone and don't you dare speak out of line.

You know what's funny about you, little tyro? It's your post history. Right now it stands at 35 posts, exclusively in the off topic political threads. But this forum community is built around the concepts of financial independence and ecological conservation. Why not post a case study, or your opinion of how you think the 4% rule works, or your preferred bike set up, or your take on Stoicism and it's application to your own life, or some money saving hack you've developed, or some moment of voluntary discomfort, even a funny about one of our beloved and sacred cows.

Anything, anything, that would let the community get to know you from the standpoint of shared paradigms. It's the internet equivalent of the 100+ casual encounters that have to happen before people become friends and start to share trust. It's the opposite of barging straight into the heavily contested threads with your extra smrt brain. You are not practicing emotional intelligence, brah.

First of all, I'm surprised I haven't been banned. So we will see how far this goes.

I don't know what little Tyro means but I assume it's derogatory which actually ties into my response to you.

First of all, I have read MMM for several years now and I really like the no-nonsense approach to many of Pete's articles. It's solid advice and he really takes no prisoners and no excuses. The reason I don't post on other topics is because my struggle is over financially as I am retired (FIRED) and maybe some other retirees can relate in that you just lose interest when you are no longer in the fight. I've won the match. But if you want my advice this game is pretty simple in the rules, but hard in the execution: Choose a spouse or partner very carefully, the kids come after a stable 2-person relationship, maintain stable employment until your financial goals are met and everything else are details related to your financial goals and individual circumstances. Vague enough for you? It's about tenacity and not eating the marshmallow right away really.

But you didn't respond to me for my financial advice so let's get to the point. I have made you mad. You probably feel I have violated your community and I have to some degree as I don't agree with much of anything many people in the Off-Topics have to say in regards to politics. So why am I here?

Believe it or not, I am curious to what others think that don't necessarily agree with me. I regularly read and watch people that I really don't like because I want to know why they believe what they believe. It truly matters and its important to know and you'll find that most people are not coming to their conclusions based on malice. The news media is garbage and shares a lot of the blame. I get a kick out of people here trashing Fox but then link an article to MSNBC. They're both trash and manipulating emotions as well as 99.9% of all of the other outlets but I digress. Anyway, that's why I read these forums and the reason I got involved is not because of the bias, it's because of the nastiness from some of the posters and more importantly their vitriol remaining unchecked by the mods. I have repeatedly read comments such as Trump supporters being monsters, stupid, fools, impotent, vile, racists, misogynists, homophobic, etc. Now it specifically forbids personal attacks in the contract one signs but that hasn't stopped several regular commenters with the thousands of posts like you would desire of me. Unchecked. MMM reaches a large audience and one would have to assume that a fair amount of its readership voted for Donald Trump. So we have a situation where MMM members are shitting on other members and the few that dare to defend themselves get drowned out by the usual suspects with nary a word of admonishment by the mods. In fact, like we just witnessed, one of the people who had the audacity to challenge some of these people has been banned by the mods. His sin was not agreeing with some of you guys. He was absolutely respectful and inquisitive and now he is banned.

So where is the problem? First and foremost, the posters that can't refrain from personal insults but more importantly the mods. They are allowing this to happen. Look what happened to me. I respectfully challenged a mod and he threatened to ban me. I absolutely believe if I hadn't publicly called him out on his behavior I would already be gone.

If you want dialogue and understanding you have to suffer through alternative points of view. You don't have to agree with it, but hopefully you can understand without demonizing the other person. This whole forum is weird because MMM talks of face-punches and not being a pussy but god-damn mention Trump and it's off to the races. Another issue too is the election coming up. Trump has an excellent chance of re-election. What's going to happen then to some of you? What if he wins with a real majority?

Anyway, hopefully that answers your questions and I will respond until Frugal Toque bans me. : )

Tyro means beginner or novice, with a distinct soupcon of whippersnapper or young buck. It contains censure, but it's not derogatory.

We are in vehement, almost violent agreement w.r.t. your stance on achieving financial independence. I'm still 18-24 months short of full financial independence myself, but I've used the same path as you - good spouse, stable career, delayed gratification, tenacity. No kids for my wife and I, though.

We're also agreed on your points about freedom of expression. I grew up in what has become Trump country. My hometown has been decimated by unemployment, addiction, and hopelessness. It's also agricultural, and at the center of the immigration debate. I'm also a commissioned officer in the U.S. military. I know a lot, like a fucktonne of people who voted for Trump. I'm in wholehearted agreement that liberal knee-jerk diatribe of Trump voters being sexist! racist! ain't doing nobody any good. I'm also in wholehearted agreement that banning users for posting their conservative viewpoints is not a good look for the community. But as I've pointed out, I've posted this exact viewpoint of knee-jerk-ism and have not been banned. I haven't even been moderated.*

I don't believe you've violated my community, nor have you made me mad. You have made me exasperated. You stomped in the sandbox, lectured bunch of elder statesmen, and pissed in the moderator's cheerios, and cried wounded victim when the responses weren't to your liking. You can have the most rational argument in the world, and still get rebuffed for that kind of low emotional intelligence. I categorically support your right to stomp, but you've repeatedly said what you want is discourse. I'm pointing out that discourse is earned by not stomping. Do what you will from here.


*Full faith mea culpa, one of my posts was edited because it had a rape metaphor. I don't believe that incident ties into this debate.

Versatile

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #581 on: March 07, 2019, 09:29:34 AM »
But if you want my advice this game is pretty simple in the rules, but hard in the execution: Choose a spouse or partner very carefully, the kids come after a stable 2-person relationship, maintain stable employment until your financial goals are met and everything else are details related to your financial goals and individual circumstances. Vague enough for you? It's about tenacity and not eating the marshmallow right away really.

The marshmallow experiment is a particularly apt reference to make in this thread. Some people (not saying you do) use the results of the original experiment to demonstrate the racial inferiority of black kids' ability to delay gratification that then corresponds to not succeeding later in life. However the original study noted that the biggest difference between the two groups is whether or not the kids had fathers in the home, and follow-up studies have demonstrated that a much stronger link to whether (or how long) a kid is willing to wait for the larger reward is how much the kid trusts the researcher. If you don't actually believe that you'll get two marshmallows later, then of course you'd choose the one marshmallow now.

So it's not really because of race that the kids have different delayed-gratification thresholds, it's because of their lived experience. There can be a number of different effects that are all subconscious that play into the ultimate decision on whether to wait for two marshmallows or not. So if we live in a theoretical society that some level of systematic racism, let's say that makes it harder for blacks to find good jobs, more likely to turn to things like selling weed to make money, more likely to be heavily policed, more likely to be convicted than a white counterpart, and more likely to be sent away for a longer amount of time than a white counterpart, or even just something as simple as black kids being shown different levels of trust and respect by white adults, then that can all ripple down into their subconscious and affect their ability to delay gratification. Which then yes, affects how well they'll do in school and if they'll stay healthy and how well they'll progress in their careers.

So while "toughen up and don't eat the marshmallow" might be fine individual advice on how to win the game it doesn't really do anything to help with the situation of racial disparity / racism. The ripple-effect links have to somehow be broken first, and delayed gratification is only one of them.

Absolutely agree on many of your points. Children that grow up in a stable, two parent household have an immense advantage over children without that home environment, there are exceptions of course.  I strongly believe that is the number one problem facing Black Americans. I think the national average is over 70% and in some cities closer to 80% now for that demographic, which is a tragedy really. ( Btw, other groups are not doing so well either).

What is interesting is that this sad reality wasn't always the case. I know a lot of conservative voices will posit that the War on Poverty
contributed a lot to this and I'm not so sure they are completely wrong on this theory. It's one of the reasons conservatives are leery of government feel-good measures as there are always unintended consequences.

So what do you do to fix it? I'm listening. The atmosphere is so charged that a white person can't even mention the issue without you-know-what. And in all reality, change has to come from within anyway, the best anybody can do is to help create the conditions that help facilitate positive change. But even with that thought I'm at a loss on how to encourage others to preserve the intact family. I'm not a religious person although the church has it's role for believers. It's just so important though not only for financial reasons but our collective national health. Thoughts?


Tyson

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #582 on: March 07, 2019, 09:32:15 AM »
The people that call for "a middle ground" don't understand is this.  If on one extreme you have virulent, explicit racism, and on the other extreme you have zero racism, the only moral/just position is "no racism".  Anything in "the middle" is, by definition, racist to some degree.  That's why people like me balk when others call for a middle ground.

GuitarStv

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #583 on: March 07, 2019, 09:33:24 AM »
When people argue the GOP isn't racist (or sexist, or bigoted against LGBTQ) I like to start with photos...

Here are the new House members for each party. And the "whole picture" is just as bad for the GOP, as 90% of their House members are white men.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/17b7f4c81f0722f4e0af64d96598ee9947dc5404/0_0_2473_3014/master/2473.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=c9e651f49ef361841956136091ce04a9

So...let's dig into this, shall we?

And how exactly does a party argue, "We aren't racist, or sexist, or bigoted against LGBTQ" when in 20 freakin' 19, they are still 90% straight white men? Doesn't that say something about how their policies are viewed by these other groups?

You aren't naming actual policies.  To me, you are doing the equivalent of what everyone here is accusing the president of doing by inferring a Mexican judge is biased because he is Mexican.  You are suggesting the GOP is "racist/sexist/bigoted" because they are mostly straight white men?  Is THAT not at least in the same ballpark as the racially insensitive comments you are accusing the conservative side of making? And yet, I wouldn't call you racist or suggest you are enabling racism, even though your comment seems to be the other side of the same coin.  Because I believe you have good intentions and within the context of your comment, I understand what you are saying.  I have no problem implying that fairness to EVERYONE.  Including the president.

OK.

To pick one of many policies, how about when Donald Trump decided to ban transgender people from the military?  It's a blanket ban because of who these people are rather than their performance on the job.  It is policy based on a prejudiced view of transgendered people as evidenced by the reasoning given by the White House that the nearly 9,000 transgender people currently serving provide "too great a risk to military effectiveness".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46963426

GuitarStv

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #584 on: March 07, 2019, 09:34:58 AM »
Quote
I find it sexist and racist to suggest

I'm curious how you define sexism and racism. There seems to be two views. I personally define both terms to imply a belief of superiority of a sex or race over another; since I don't feel this definition fairly characterizes me (or even other posters on this thread), I take it as a juvenile insult. However, I do posit there are some differences between sexes and races (when looking at statistics of the whole populations), and maybe this is the criteria you are using to judge me, the observation of differences.

Do you believe that a particular race has behavioral traits that are different from other races?

I thought of an example this morning that might fit what you're asking. Again, I'm speaking in terms of statistics, not a monolithic difference between races (as I've mentioned, the differences intra-race dwarf that of the differences inter-race). Susceptibility to alcohol dependence has been shown to be affected by several genes that are predominant in different races and ethnicities: https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh40/152-160.htm.

Is susceptibility to alcohol dependence a behavioral trait?  That sounds more like a physiological one (albeit a trait that could potentially lead to behavioral traits).

madgeylou

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #585 on: March 07, 2019, 09:50:28 AM »
So what do you do to fix it? I'm listening. The atmosphere is so charged that a white person can't even mention the issue without you-know-what. And in all reality, change has to come from within anyway, the best anybody can do is to help create the conditions that help facilitate positive change. But even with that thought I'm at a loss on how to encourage others to preserve the intact family. I'm not a religious person although the church has it's role for believers. It's just so important though not only for financial reasons but our collective national health. Thoughts?

The part I bolded is exactly the right place to focus, I think.

Imagine that you are a black American. Imagine that you have learned about the atrocities perpetuated on your people since the beginning of this country, and you have seen many of them in your own life and in the lives of your friends and family in the present day.

Now imagine that a person who is a member of the group who perpetuated all of that upon your people for the last 400 years, is telling you that your problem is the decline of your community ... when their group is the reason that you've been disenfranchised, prevented from owning a home, incarcerated and killed at much higher rates than anyone else, etc etc etc. Their group is the primary reason that your community has declined! It would piss me off for sure and I would not be likely to take that advice, nor is that advice likely to be helpful, because it doesn't take into account the complexity and history and context.

Clearly black communities have some healing to do. But what I have been taught by my friends and my education is that it is not my job as a white person to decide what that healing looks like for black folks. My job as a white person is to do what I can to change the society conditions that my people have set up, that I have personally benefited from (without having any intention to), so that black people have the resources they need to heal their own communities.

This means educating myself and the people in my circle, it means being open to being coached when I get stuff wrong, and it means not trying to step in and save anyone. It means voting for candidates who will listen to all of their constituents, not just the wealthy ones who donate a lot to their campaigns. It means standing up for black people and amplifying their voices. It means giving black educators money so they can continue doing their work.

White folks have enough work to do to clean up our own behavior before we even think about telling people of other races about theirs.

brandon1827

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #586 on: March 07, 2019, 09:54:56 AM »
I wasn't going to respond again to this thread because it had gotten so hijacked.

I just wanted to post that (bottom on the post) a researcher is researching how racism and racial resentment is bad - not just for minorities, but for the people who are the "aggrieved whites". I saw it in the town I moved in; way back when the ruling came down that parks and swimming pools needed to be racially integrated, rather than integrating the city closed the public pools. There are now public pools but there was decades poor children neither black NOR white had access to swimming facilities.

There are many areas in the "heartland" where policies that are done out of racial resentment or fear, is making white people have poorer health, education, and life expectancy. Kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

"Physician and sociologist Jonathan M. Metzl traveled across America's heartland examining the politics of racial resentment and its impact on public health. He uncovered how racial anxieties led to the repeal of gun control laws in Missouri, stymied the Affordable Care Act in Tennessee, and fueled massive cuts to schools and social services in Kansas. Contrary to politicians' promises, these policies made life sicker, harder and shorter in the very populations they purported to aid."

I can personally attest to this effect in Tennessee. The state is a deep, Republican stronghold, and many times state level politicians push policies and legislation that hurts the populace in order to seemingly ensure they don't support Democratic laws such as the ACA. There are just as many poor, uninsured white voters here as there are those of other races (if not more). They are all, overwhelmingly being hurt by these policies...but these poor white people still staunchly support the party that is making their lives more difficult. I don't have data to back this up, but my personal belief is that this can be attributed to the terrible state of the education system in Tennessee. They are most definitely cutting off their noses to spite their faces. 

Davnasty

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #587 on: March 07, 2019, 09:55:17 AM »

...snip

The title of this thread asks why does it have to be this way? Because differing opinions (within respectful parameters) get shut down in these forums. Once again, where did Steveo cross the line? What warranted him being labeled a troll and the threat of banishment? Nobody has answered this question.

People have differing opinions for valid reasons many times. If you create an echo chamber you will never bridge this divide.

Since he refuses to explain what he is referring to when he uses the word patriarchy, I'm pretty sure he is consistently and purposefully arguing against a straw man even after multiple people point it out to him.  To me, that's pretty clearly trolling.

Thanks for the response. For the record, I hate these damn terms like patriarchy and all of that crap.

From what I understood, his main point was that Western society has moved on from a strictly patriarchal system and the remnants are largely a result of men and women making individual choices. Hence a lot of the results that we see today.

Is that a reasonable interpretation and mindset to have? I'm pretty sure he was arguing from his individual life experiences. I don't know that it makes him wrong if he hasn't experienced what others have, and I don't recall him invalidating other's experiences.

First, steveo is the only person I've seen bring up the word patriarchy on these forums. Most members prefer to talk about gender inequality as it pertains to individual issues which is much more productive than discussing a complex social construct in a few back and forth comments.

He's also participated in many other discussions which essentially go through the same progression.

Step 1: steveo asks for "proof" of an un-provable thing that no one else was even talking about
Step 2: A few people offer evidence and explain their opinions rationally
Step 3: He responds "you're so irrational and illogical that it's hilarious, this proves I am right" without really getting into the details
Step 4: Some posters continue to try and be rational while others stoop to his level and the conversation is derailed

Mods may not be 100% balanced in calling out each infraction but when someone has a history in other threads I think it's unreasonable to expect mods to ignore their history and look at each comment in a vacuum. Not to mention, mods often only see comments which get flagged. If you really want someone to get a warning for personal attacks you need to flag the comment. If you do so, you also need to keep in mind that they may have received a warning and you'll never know about it.

For the record, here is steveo's first comment in this thread. Prior to this the conversation was quite civilized.

I'm definitely a liberal. I believe in equal opportunities and I believe in letting people make their own decisions on how they live their lives. I've always voted for the party on the left side of politics. I don't support going to war or any sort of racism at all. I'm married to an Asian woman and I have 3 half Asian kids. I think basically all drugs should be legalised. I don't support Trump and think he should be voted out.

The interesting point is that I have been shouted down on here for stating what I think are clearly factual points. I heard Jordan Peterson state recently words to the effect that the idea of the western world being a repressive patriarchy is abhorrent. I completely agree with this comment.

Unfortunately liberals have now become extremists. They honestly only believe in equality of outcome when it suits them and if you disagree with their extreme views you get shouted down and called racist/red-piller or some other derogatory term.

I think it's clear now that these extremist leftists are not liberals and should not be categorised as such. We need a different classification for these people. So basically although I understand where this thread is coming from it's a false dichotomy.

There are liberals who believe in the free market, equal opportunities for everyone and progressive social policies to help people who struggle in society via either social support (including an income) and/or helping these people have greater opportunities now and in the future via education or similar support. I'm one of these people.

Then there are people who rant and rave about how disadvantaged they and others are despite living in extreme wealth and being provided with so many opportunities within their life. We all have to comply with these people's viewpoints and if you don't you will be abused at the very least. I liken these people to Pol Pot who wanted to re-create society into his version of a better one. I think that these are the people that the OP classifies as liberals.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 09:58:07 AM by Dabnasty »

runbikerun

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #588 on: March 07, 2019, 10:04:49 AM »
*defines self as liberal and leftwing*

*makes positive reference to Jordan Peterson*

sherr

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #589 on: March 07, 2019, 10:05:03 AM »
But if you want my advice this game is pretty simple in the rules, but hard in the execution: Choose a spouse or partner very carefully, the kids come after a stable 2-person relationship, maintain stable employment until your financial goals are met and everything else are details related to your financial goals and individual circumstances. Vague enough for you? It's about tenacity and not eating the marshmallow right away really.

The marshmallow experiment is a particularly apt reference to make in this thread. Some people (not saying you do) use the results of the original experiment to demonstrate the racial inferiority of black kids' ability to delay gratification that then corresponds to not succeeding later in life. However the original study noted that the biggest difference between the two groups is whether or not the kids had fathers in the home, and follow-up studies have demonstrated that a much stronger link to whether (or how long) a kid is willing to wait for the larger reward is how much the kid trusts the researcher. If you don't actually believe that you'll get two marshmallows later, then of course you'd choose the one marshmallow now.

So it's not really because of race that the kids have different delayed-gratification thresholds, it's because of their lived experience. There can be a number of different effects that are all subconscious that play into the ultimate decision on whether to wait for two marshmallows or not. So if we live in a theoretical society that some level of systematic racism, let's say that makes it harder for blacks to find good jobs, more likely to turn to things like selling weed to make money, more likely to be heavily policed, more likely to be convicted than a white counterpart, and more likely to be sent away for a longer amount of time than a white counterpart, or even just something as simple as black kids being shown different levels of trust and respect by white adults, then that can all ripple down into their subconscious and affect their ability to delay gratification. Which then yes, affects how well they'll do in school and if they'll stay healthy and how well they'll progress in their careers.

So while "toughen up and don't eat the marshmallow" might be fine individual advice on how to win the game it doesn't really do anything to help with the situation of racial disparity / racism. The ripple-effect links have to somehow be broken first, and delayed gratification is only one of them.

Absolutely agree on many of your points. Children that grow up in a stable, two parent household have an immense advantage over children without that home environment, there are exceptions of course.  I strongly believe that is the number one problem facing Black Americans. I think the national average is over 70% and in some cities closer to 80% now for that demographic, which is a tragedy really. ( Btw, other groups are not doing so well either).

What is interesting is that this sad reality wasn't always the case. I know a lot of conservative voices will posit that the War on Poverty
contributed a lot to this and I'm not so sure they are completely wrong on this theory. It's one of the reasons conservatives are leery of government feel-good measures as there are always unintended consequences.

So what do you do to fix it? I'm listening. The atmosphere is so charged that a white person can't even mention the issue without you-know-what. And in all reality, change has to come from within anyway, the best anybody can do is to help create the conditions that help facilitate positive change. But even with that thought I'm at a loss on how to encourage others to preserve the intact family. I'm not a religious person although the church has it's role for believers. It's just so important though not only for financial reasons but our collective national health. Thoughts?

Well I do not have "all the answers" but breaking those generational ripple effects is exactly what policies like Affirmative Action are aimed at doing. Help this generation up in spite of their disadvantages, so that the next generation can stand on a more equal footing.

Other common suggestions include ending the War on Drugs, policing reform / accountability, sentencing reform, increased focus on discrimination during hiring, funding schools in poor areas better (schools are commonly funded by nearby property taxes), and improving welfare laws to eliminate things like benefit cliffs. I think an increase in stability on both fronts - familial and financial - will come as a result of reducing the systemic hurdles people have to overcome.

I do not think that the solution is to simply end welfare / the War on Poverty and tell people to figure it out, and I'd be more inclined to listen to the conservatives who think that is the problem if they'd actually offer some sort of solution beyond that.

Versatile

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #590 on: March 07, 2019, 10:14:09 AM »
Alright this is pointless. I have to say though, that's it's pretty damn funny this chewy person keeps reopening accounts. Keep it up kid. They'll find a way to block you permanently soon enough.

On a serious note though, your moderator banned someone for what? Does that give anybody pause? It should. Tow the line everyone and don't you dare speak out of line.

You know what's funny about you, little tyro? It's your post history. Right now it stands at 35 posts, exclusively in the off topic political threads. But this forum community is built around the concepts of financial independence and ecological conservation. Why not post a case study, or your opinion of how you think the 4% rule works, or your preferred bike set up, or your take on Stoicism and it's application to your own life, or some money saving hack you've developed, or some moment of voluntary discomfort, even a funny about one of our beloved and sacred cows.

Anything, anything, that would let the community get to know you from the standpoint of shared paradigms. It's the internet equivalent of the 100+ casual encounters that have to happen before people become friends and start to share trust. It's the opposite of barging straight into the heavily contested threads with your extra smrt brain. You are not practicing emotional intelligence, brah.

First of all, I'm surprised I haven't been banned. So we will see how far this goes.

I don't know what little Tyro means but I assume it's derogatory which actually ties into my response to you.

First of all, I have read MMM for several years now and I really like the no-nonsense approach to many of Pete's articles. It's solid advice and he really takes no prisoners and no excuses. The reason I don't post on other topics is because my struggle is over financially as I am retired (FIRED) and maybe some other retirees can relate in that you just lose interest when you are no longer in the fight. I've won the match. But if you want my advice this game is pretty simple in the rules, but hard in the execution: Choose a spouse or partner very carefully, the kids come after a stable 2-person relationship, maintain stable employment until your financial goals are met and everything else are details related to your financial goals and individual circumstances. Vague enough for you? It's about tenacity and not eating the marshmallow right away really.

But you didn't respond to me for my financial advice so let's get to the point. I have made you mad. You probably feel I have violated your community and I have to some degree as I don't agree with much of anything many people in the Off-Topics have to say in regards to politics. So why am I here?

Believe it or not, I am curious to what others think that don't necessarily agree with me. I regularly read and watch people that I really don't like because I want to know why they believe what they believe. It truly matters and its important to know and you'll find that most people are not coming to their conclusions based on malice. The news media is garbage and shares a lot of the blame. I get a kick out of people here trashing Fox but then link an article to MSNBC. They're both trash and manipulating emotions as well as 99.9% of all of the other outlets but I digress. Anyway, that's why I read these forums and the reason I got involved is not because of the bias, it's because of the nastiness from some of the posters and more importantly their vitriol remaining unchecked by the mods. I have repeatedly read comments such as Trump supporters being monsters, stupid, fools, impotent, vile, racists, misogynists, homophobic, etc. Now it specifically forbids personal attacks in the contract one signs but that hasn't stopped several regular commenters with the thousands of posts like you would desire of me. Unchecked. MMM reaches a large audience and one would have to assume that a fair amount of its readership voted for Donald Trump. So we have a situation where MMM members are shitting on other members and the few that dare to defend themselves get drowned out by the usual suspects with nary a word of admonishment by the mods. In fact, like we just witnessed, one of the people who had the audacity to challenge some of these people has been banned by the mods. His sin was not agreeing with some of you guys. He was absolutely respectful and inquisitive and now he is banned.

So where is the problem? First and foremost, the posters that can't refrain from personal insults but more importantly the mods. They are allowing this to happen. Look what happened to me. I respectfully challenged a mod and he threatened to ban me. I absolutely believe if I hadn't publicly called him out on his behavior I would already be gone.

If you want dialogue and understanding you have to suffer through alternative points of view. You don't have to agree with it, but hopefully you can understand without demonizing the other person. This whole forum is weird because MMM talks of face-punches and not being a pussy but god-damn mention Trump and it's off to the races. Another issue too is the election coming up. Trump has an excellent chance of re-election. What's going to happen then to some of you? What if he wins with a real majority?

Anyway, hopefully that answers your questions and I will respond until Frugal Toque bans me. : )

Tyro means beginner or novice, with a distinct soupcon of whippersnapper or young buck. It contains censure, but it's not derogatory.

We are in vehement, almost violent agreement w.r.t. your stance on achieving financial independence. I'm still 18-24 months short of full financial independence myself, but I've used the same path as you - good spouse, stable career, delayed gratification, tenacity. No kids for my wife and I, though.

We're also agreed on your points about freedom of expression. I grew up in what has become Trump country. My hometown has been decimated by unemployment, addiction, and hopelessness. It's also agricultural, and at the center of the immigration debate. I'm also a commissioned officer in the U.S. military. I know a lot, like a fucktonne of people who voted for Trump. I'm in wholehearted agreement that liberal knee-jerk diatribe of Trump voters being sexist! racist! ain't doing nobody any good. I'm also in wholehearted agreement that banning users for posting their conservative viewpoints is not a good look for the community. But as I've pointed out, I've posted this exact viewpoint of knee-jerk-ism and have not been banned. I haven't even been moderated.*

I don't believe you've violated my community, nor have you made me mad. You have made me exasperated. You stomped in the sandbox, lectured bunch of elder statesmen, and pissed in the moderator's cheerios, and cried wounded victim when the responses weren't to your liking. You can have the most rational argument in the world, and still get rebuffed for that kind of low emotional intelligence. I categorically support your right to stomp, but you've repeatedly said what you want is discourse. I'm pointing out that discourse is earned by not stomping. Do what you will from here.


*Full faith mea culpa, one of my posts was edited because it had a rape metaphor. I don't believe that incident ties into this debate.

Full disclosure: I don't care who you voted for nor is it any of my business and forgive me as I have not read all of your posts. But let's run with a scenario being that you are a conservative: You voted for Donald Trump in 2016 and even worse you still support him now. According to many people on these forums you are a monster and a racist, at best a dumbass that enables evil. I suspect ( please correct me if I am wrong) that you didn't vote for him and you probably don't like him. Hence your ability to enjoy these forums without vitriol thrown your way. If you don't want to respond to this gotcha scenario I understand, but I think my point is valid.

I'm sure I've come across as a jerk and people are wondering "who the fuck is this guy" and I get it. But I stand by my statements: this place is hostile to anyone that doesn't hate Trump and Frugal Togue is a poor moderator. He has allowed an environment to fester in it's hatred of anything Trump related. It's narcissistic on his part. (Yes I know, I'm probably a narcissist too) This is not healthy and it sets the stage for real conflict. Again, Trump has an excellent chance to win 2020. If your entire world view is tied up in your hatred of Trump and his supporters, where does that leave you when he wins a second time? More self-segregation and potentially violence. That is not good for anyone.

Is it emotionally immature to wade into these forums? Probably but I'm egotistical enough to believe I'm actually helping. And are not respectfully discoursing now? I consider this a win.

But hey, we agree on retirement and congratulations on almost reaching your goal. Life is good on the other side. Making small, daily wise decisions really pays off, financially and otherwise.




GuitarStv

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #591 on: March 07, 2019, 10:27:07 AM »
If you voted for, and continue to support Trump, you are supporting a racist.

This certainly doesn't make you a monster.  This also doesn't mean that you're racist. Even despite the constant straw-man arguments put forth saying it does.

It does indicate (at the least) that you aren't particularly concerned about the impacts of racism on people in the country, and that you don't particularly take issue with the racism supported by the Republican party today.

OurTown

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #592 on: March 07, 2019, 10:40:29 AM »
If you voted for, and continue to support Trump, you are supporting a racist.

This certainly doesn't make you a monster.  This also doesn't mean that you're racist. Even despite the constant straw-man arguments put forth saying it does.

It does indicate (at the least) that you aren't particularly concerned about the impacts of racism on people in the country, and that you don't particularly take issue with the racism supported by the Republican party today.


Agree with this. 

madgeylou

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #593 on: March 07, 2019, 10:42:07 AM »
If you voted for, and continue to support Trump, you are supporting a racist.

This certainly doesn't make you a monster.  This also doesn't mean that you're racist. Even despite the constant straw-man arguments put forth saying it does.

It does indicate (at the least) that you aren't particularly concerned about the impacts of racism on people in the country, and that you don't particularly take issue with the racism supported by the Republican party today.

... which is racism.

Cool Friend

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #594 on: March 07, 2019, 10:47:11 AM »
Again, Trump has an excellent chance to win 2020. If your entire world view is tied up in your hatred of Trump and his supporters, where does that leave you when he wins a second time? More self-segregation and potentially violence. That is not good for anyone.

Since no one's entire world view is centered around hatred for Trump, I guess we don't have to worry about that.

partgypsy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #595 on: March 07, 2019, 10:49:01 AM »
I'll get flamed for this, but at this point, two years into his presidency, there is a 1 item iq test. "Do you support Trump" and the answer is "yes" the answer is that person is a dumbass.

I admit that there are a lot of inner circle hangers-on who have jumped on his bandwagon and promote him and will continue to do that with the hopes of potential enrichment/power/job positions. I get that. But anyone in the general population who still supports him shows they are a guillible dumbass willing to swallow a limitless amount of BS (Trump, Sarah Sanders, K Conway, Fox, etc).


Sorry if that's too harsh. But facts are facts.

As far as his chances in 2020, we'll see how the next year or so plays out, eh?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 10:53:07 AM by partgypsy »

OurTown

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #596 on: March 07, 2019, 10:53:03 AM »
I'll get flamed for this, but at this point, two years into his presidency, there is a 1 item iq test. "Do you support Trump" and the answer is "yes" the answer is that person is a dumbass.

I admit that there are a lot of inner circle hangers-on who have jumped on his bandwagon and promote him and will continue to do that with the hopes of potential enrichment/power/job positions. I get that. But anyone in the general population who still supports him shows they are guillible dumbass willing to swallow a limitless amount of BS.


Sorry if that's too harsh. But facts are facts.

His supporters have certainly been misled and manipulated by the Fox News propaganda and other similar media outlets.  Granted, they allowed themselves to be manipulated, which I agree makes them dumbasses.  Some were manipulated by racial animus, others by religious stuff, which is odd given how "religious" Mr. Trump is, others by the gun fetish, etc.   

Tyson

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #597 on: March 07, 2019, 11:01:20 AM »
I'll get flamed for this, but at this point, two years into his presidency, there is a 1 item iq test. "Do you support Trump" and the answer is "yes" the answer is that person is a dumbass.

I admit that there are a lot of inner circle hangers-on who have jumped on his bandwagon and promote him and will continue to do that with the hopes of potential enrichment/power/job positions. I get that. But anyone in the general population who still supports him shows they are guillible dumbass willing to swallow a limitless amount of BS.


Sorry if that's too harsh. But facts are facts.

His supporters have certainly been misled and manipulated by the Fox News propaganda and other similar media outlets.  Granted, they allowed themselves to be manipulated, which I agree makes them dumbasses.  Some were manipulated by racial animus, others by religious stuff, which is odd given how "religious" Mr. Trump is, others by the gun fetish, etc.

I think many people are like my parents - they "held their nose" and voted Trump in the last election because "the worst Republican is still better than the best Democrat".

partgypsy

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #598 on: March 07, 2019, 11:10:12 AM »
I'll get flamed for this, but at this point, two years into his presidency, there is a 1 item iq test. "Do you support Trump" and the answer is "yes" the answer is that person is a dumbass.

I admit that there are a lot of inner circle hangers-on who have jumped on his bandwagon and promote him and will continue to do that with the hopes of potential enrichment/power/job positions. I get that. But anyone in the general population who still supports him shows they are guillible dumbass willing to swallow a limitless amount of BS.


Sorry if that's too harsh. But facts are facts.

His supporters have certainly been misled and manipulated by the Fox News propaganda and other similar media outlets.  Granted, they allowed themselves to be manipulated, which I agree makes them dumbasses.  Some were manipulated by racial animus, others by religious stuff, which is odd given how "religious" Mr. Trump is, others by the gun fetish, etc.

I think many people are like my parents - they "held their nose" and voted Trump in the last election because "the worst Republican is still better than the best Democrat".

And, the people who believe that "the worst Republican is still better than the best Democrat", are dumbasses. It's sheeple mentality. It's just another way of saying they don't care if the representative they voted in does, or if they lie, do unethical or illegal behavior, as long as they have an R behind their names. It's a great way to get quality candidates (sarcasm).

Boofinator

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #599 on: March 07, 2019, 11:16:06 AM »
Quote
I find it sexist and racist to suggest

I'm curious how you define sexism and racism. There seems to be two views. I personally define both terms to imply a belief of superiority of a sex or race over another; since I don't feel this definition fairly characterizes me (or even other posters on this thread), I take it as a juvenile insult. However, I do posit there are some differences between sexes and races (when looking at statistics of the whole populations), and maybe this is the criteria you are using to judge me, the observation of differences.

Do you believe that a particular race has behavioral traits that are different from other races?

I thought of an example this morning that might fit what you're asking. Again, I'm speaking in terms of statistics, not a monolithic difference between races (as I've mentioned, the differences intra-race dwarf that of the differences inter-race). Susceptibility to alcohol dependence has been shown to be affected by several genes that are predominant in different races and ethnicities: https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh40/152-160.htm.

Is susceptibility to alcohol dependence a behavioral trait?  That sounds more like a physiological one (albeit a trait that could potentially lead to behavioral traits).

Maybe I misunderstand what you are asking. I thought a higher/lower incidence of alcoholism would fit the bill.