Author Topic: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?  (Read 64531 times)

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4712
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #400 on: March 05, 2019, 05:38:06 PM »
I'm also a libertarian and I've always wondered why there are so few of us. It seems natural to me to take a philosophy of "let people do what they like but also let them pay for all their own mistakes/benefit from all their good decisions". I don't really understand why others have so much empathy and compassion that they want to rescue people from the consequences of their own bad life choices.

It's simple. No one wants to live in that world.

If everyone's circumstances were always the result of their own decisions, it might be OK.

It'd still be a shithole of a world.

People make mistakes. We should build a society that accepts that rather than build a society that assumes everyone is a 100% perfect economic automaton.

Indexer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #401 on: March 05, 2019, 05:54:24 PM »
Try being a "moderate" or "independent." Folks in this camp don't necessarily averaging out all opposing ideas to arrive in the middle. Instead, they tend to be unorthodox, supporting and opposing aspects of both parties. It's great fun...my conservative friends think I'm a bleeding heart liberal and my liberal friends think I'm a wingnut.

+1  I know exactly how you feel.


Why does it have to be this way?

1. Our media is biased. I don't just mean biased in terms of how they state their opinions. I mean biased in what they report VS don't report.

On that note, while I wish CNN & MSNBC were unbiased, their bias is NOT comparable to Fox News. 10 years ago Fox was biased to the point of being misleading. Now it's total dog $#!^, spinning up conspiracy stories and defending Trump against all reason. Remember how Trump thought there were ISIS members in the caravan? He saw that on Fox and the story was completely fabricated. A line has been crossed and the spread of misinformation is becoming destructive!

2. Gerrymandering & primaries: As a result, too many of our representatives are from the fringes.

3. Tribalism. I think this is a result of #1, but I've noticed over the past 10 years, especially over the past 2 1/2, that people identify more with their party than their own beliefs. For instance, a family member who believed all their life that immigrants were hard working and did jobs Americans wouldn't, is now obsessed with the wall. They also felt Clinton should have been impeached, but don't care about Trump's affairs or lying. They felt the deficit was a huge problem until it was Trump lowering taxes and increasing spending.

Republican Vs Democrat. These aren't football teams. You shouldn't defend your team no matter how many times they get caught cheating. You should have your own beliefs and vote for the candidates that best reflect those beliefs regardless of what party they are a member of. I feel like this is mostly lost in America now. People base their ideas on their party, not the other way around.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 05:57:02 PM by Indexer »

middo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
  • Location: Country Western Australia
  • Learning.
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #402 on: March 05, 2019, 06:16:06 PM »
<snip>

Republican Vs Democrat. These aren't football teams. You shouldn't defend your team no matter how many times they get caught cheating. You should have your own beliefs and vote for the candidates that best reflect those beliefs regardless of what party they are a member of. I feel like this is mostly lost in America now. People base their ideas on their party, not the other way around.

I've seen this, as I describe it "yeah team!" happening in Australia too.  Even to the point of arguing with me for an idea one week, and then when their team does a backflip, arguing against it the next week.  I just like playing devil's advocate, and letting others have enough rope.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #403 on: March 05, 2019, 07:03:08 PM »
1. Our media is biased. I don't just mean biased in terms of how they state their opinions. I mean biased in what they report VS don't report.

On that note, while I wish CNN & MSNBC were unbiased, their bias is NOT comparable to Fox News. 10 years ago Fox was biased to the point of being misleading. Now it's total dog $#!^, spinning up conspiracy stories and defending Trump against all reason. Remember how Trump thought there were ISIS members in the caravan? He saw that on Fox and the story was completely fabricated. A line has been crossed and the spread of misinformation is becoming destructive!


Trump actually didn't say ISIS members were in the caravan... he said unknown middle easterners.  As for the ISIS/Caravan connection, you are fabricating this.  The actual report was pointing out 100's of ISIS affiliated terrorists were caught in Guatemala and it's not unreasonable to suggest that POTENTIALLY these caravans could be a security risk accordingly.  In fact, he even says "Just to be clear, POTENTIAL."

Here is the actual video.  Nowhere did they claim ISIS was in the caravan.  It's a discussion about a lack of security at a time that 100's of ISIS terrorists are caught in the same areas the caravans are being created.  It's a discussion about very reasonable concerns that these mass caravans can be security risks due to gangs and terrorists.

https://video.foxnews.com/v/5851913333001/#sp=show-clips

As you can see, you are just, wrong.  And why did you believe this?  Because you pay attention to ACTUAL biased reporting that has completely fooled you.  You would be well served watching Fox News with an open mind in addition to other news sources, so you can form much more informed thoughts on the topic.  I mostly enjoy watching CNN and Fox News.  I find the news portion of CNN to be more biased than Fox (not to confuse news with opinion commentators), but they do have some pretty decent stories with some balanced segments here and there.  I find the NEWS portion of Fox News to generally be really good and pretty damn fair.  The opinion shows are total right wing biased, but these are opinion shows, I understand the difference...  I wouldn't watch Maddow on MSNBC and expect a balanced news affair either.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #404 on: March 05, 2019, 07:13:39 PM »
The same [Republican Senator introduced] with massive Criminal Justice Reform that was actually passed.  All the talk of this racist administration, while they were passing massive criminal justice reform which was targeted at helping minority communities and unjust sentencing.

Okay. I mean I agree, yes it's great that this passed. Let's not forget however that this was an extremely bipartisan bill, passing 87-12 in the Senate (and all 12 "NOs" were R) and 358-36 in the House (and all 36 "NOs" were R).

Let's also not forget that Trump:
A) Needs every bit of good PR he can get.
B) Would have obviously been overridden if he had vetoed it.

I think the point that we can all look at the one or two good things that have happened is a valid one, but it's not like this is incredibly strong evidence that Trump is not a racist. It's not like Trump was the driver behind this reform, people had been trying to get it done since 2015.

I think you aren't being fair.  You write this as though the Democratic house championed the bill and Trump passed it for good PR.  Criminal justice reform came FROM the white house.  It was Kushner who put it together.  And the fact that some R's voted against it only proves that this administration isn't beholden to the Republican party.  If anything, it shows they are more concerned about just doing good shit and working in a bipartisan way.  This bill was proof of it.  There is no doubt the Democrats are obstructionists.  I'm not giving the R's a pass either, they were obstructionists during Obamas terms.  I hated them for it then, and I hate the Dems for it now.  It's so counterproductive and I'm sick of individual parties wishing failure just to make whatever current administration is in power look bad.

There is so much I dislike about Trump.  But there is no doubt he's a get shit done type of leader.  The opportunities are endless.  We won't agree on everything, and things will get passed that the party out of power won't like, but we clearly have an opportunity here to at least get major things done that we all can agree on.  And until Trump became president, illegal immigration was one of them.  God forbid we actually solve the problem now, because Trump would take a victory lap and win in 2020... can't have that.  Obstruct!!!!!  God I hate our 2 party system so fucking much.  Sorry about the rant!

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 649
  • Location: Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #405 on: March 05, 2019, 07:47:35 PM »
I have never denied that sexism or racism exists. I've never denied that institutional racism existed in the past but today it is becoming more and more a thing of the past and I don't believe that it exists systemically today.

Allow me to translate: Racism exists, but it's not part of our society, so we're not allowed to do anything to address it.

This, and your disregard of professionally executed studies, is how we know you are entering this argument in bad faith.
This is why I consider you on the edge of trolling.

If you think that kind of shit is going to be allowed to fly around here, you've got another think coming.

Why don't the bunch of you go back to talking about Early Retirement and stop talking about subjects on which you are clearly ignorant and have nothing to contribute? (unless letting us know about your fragile egos and your desperate need to be recognized as the True Victims of Reverse Racism is your contribution).

Toque.

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 649
  • Location: Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #406 on: March 05, 2019, 08:00:25 PM »
Are you talking about me? I haven't opined on any of this other than I think you shouldn't call Steveo a troll. Do you have a question for me?

He has been warned about his behaviour before.
I referred, in my comment, to you and the rest of "liberals are too extreme" bunch in this thread.

Quote
I have a pretty good sense of what a moderator does and I would think fairness should matter, even to dissenting opinions.
When a bunch of nazi assholes came down to Charlottesville, they also came here, posting links to stormfront and other racist crap.
Do I let neo-nazis express their dissenting opinions?
No.
Do I have to let misogynists blast us about their 1950s based evolutionary psychology?
No.
Do I have to let people come here and tell our black, female or other minorities that their lived experiences, backed up by through sociological studies, are invalid?
No.

My goal here is to keep this forum open to everyone except the intolerant - everyone except those who are trying to freeze others out of the community.

Quote
But no, I don't know how you got the job or what your boss's guidelines are for discussion. Is it anything different from normal, fair discourse? I wouldn't think so.
Did you notice it's an early retirement forum?  The purpose of the forum is to get as many people involved as possible, to be as open and inclusive as possible.

So if you're into posting bigoted crap on the forums, you're gone.
If you're into trying to make large chunks of our membership feel like this is a white man's club with claims of Reverse Racism being the only Real Discrimination (TM), you're gone.

Is that straightforward enough for you?

Toque.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2532
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #407 on: March 05, 2019, 08:09:21 PM »
You have to remember that the "center" in the US looks kinda right wing to most of the rest of the world.

Maybe but geez the left looks pretty dysfunctional. I've never experienced such poor reasoning ability coupled with such over the top dramatics when it comes to personally attacking people. I'm serious as well.

Do you even realize that you continually attack people by calling them dysfunctional, regularly referring to them as extreme, insinuating that they are ignorant, etc. etc.?

I am just asking because there sure seems to be a lot of double standards on your part. Why not just stick to debating what you disagree with? Reading through the thread I get the impression you are so fed up and just wanting to go off on everyone.

This is just so over the top.

I am frustrated though. I call people extremist leftists because I consider myself on the left. There was push back on this point and I stated I've always voted for the left and these theories are far beyond my vision of the left. I stand by this comment but I'm happy to use another term. As for insinuating they are ignorant I think I've been pretty clear on stating that people have an inability to prove things they state they can prove. I'll also call the way a bunch of people debate on here dysfunctional.

For the record I have been attacked left, right and centre and yet you don't seem to comment on that.

It's over the top yet you proceed to explain why you posited all of it? Ummm, ok.

You are right. I should probably not have bothered responding to you because you clearly weren't discussing anything in good faith. I get it.

Actually I was faithful that you would realize your approach to confrontation/debate is inconsistent with what you want reciprocated. You know, do unto others. But this latest response is just more evidence of the same. I agree, you probably shouldn't have responded. My approach, like many others, wasn't to you liking.


Versatile

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 125
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #408 on: March 05, 2019, 08:25:11 PM »
Are you talking about me? I haven't opined on any of this other than I think you shouldn't call Steveo a troll. Do you have a question for me?

He has been warned about his behaviour before.
I referred, in my comment, to you and the rest of "liberals are too extreme" bunch in this thread.

Quote
I have a pretty good sense of what a moderator does and I would think fairness should matter, even to dissenting opinions.
When a bunch of nazi assholes came down to Charlottesville, they also came here, posting links to stormfront and other racist crap.
Do I let neo-nazis express their dissenting opinions?
No.
Do I have to let misogynists blast us about their 1950s based evolutionary psychology?
No.
Do I have to let people come here and tell our black, female or other minorities that their lived experiences, backed up by through sociological studies, are invalid?
No.

My goal here is to keep this forum open to everyone except the intolerant - everyone except those who are trying to freeze others out of the community.

Quote
But no, I don't know how you got the job or what your boss's guidelines are for discussion. Is it anything different from normal, fair discourse? I wouldn't think so.
Did you notice it's an early retirement forum?  The purpose of the forum is to get as many people involved as possible, to be as open and inclusive as possible.

So if you're into posting bigoted crap on the forums, you're gone.
If you're into trying to make large chunks of our membership feel like this is a white man's club with claims of Reverse Racism being the only Real Discrimination (TM), you're gone.

Is that straightforward enough for you?

Toque.

I would like to make a formal complaint about your behavior. Completely unprofessional and erratic. You are threatening me without cause.

Since you are a global moderator, who is your supervisor? If I complain to a moderator, does it go straight to you? That wouldn't accomplish much now would it?

You can PM me with the information or you can delete this post and ban me. If you choose the latter, keep in mind that people will have seen this before you take that road.


Laserjet3051

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
  • Age: 92
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #409 on: March 05, 2019, 08:38:21 PM »
This thread progression is an accurate reflection of the macrocosm the OP was inquiring about. 

fuzzy math

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1034
  • Age: 38
  • Location: PNW ---> Midwest (for now)
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #410 on: March 05, 2019, 08:56:22 PM »
Are you talking about me? I haven't opined on any of this other than I think you shouldn't call Steveo a troll. Do you have a question for me?

He has been warned about his behaviour before.
I referred, in my comment, to you and the rest of "liberals are too extreme" bunch in this thread.

Quote
I have a pretty good sense of what a moderator does and I would think fairness should matter, even to dissenting opinions.
When a bunch of nazi assholes came down to Charlottesville, they also came here, posting links to stormfront and other racist crap.
Do I let neo-nazis express their dissenting opinions?
No.
Do I have to let misogynists blast us about their 1950s based evolutionary psychology?
No.
Do I have to let people come here and tell our black, female or other minorities that their lived experiences, backed up by through sociological studies, are invalid?
No.

My goal here is to keep this forum open to everyone except the intolerant - everyone except those who are trying to freeze others out of the community.

Quote
But no, I don't know how you got the job or what your boss's guidelines are for discussion. Is it anything different from normal, fair discourse? I wouldn't think so.
Did you notice it's an early retirement forum?  The purpose of the forum is to get as many people involved as possible, to be as open and inclusive as possible.

So if you're into posting bigoted crap on the forums, you're gone.
If you're into trying to make large chunks of our membership feel like this is a white man's club with claims of Reverse Racism being the only Real Discrimination (TM), you're gone.

Is that straightforward enough for you?

Toque.

I would like to make a formal complaint about your behavior. Completely unprofessional and erratic. You are threatening me without cause.

Since you are a global moderator, who is your supervisor? If I complain to a moderator, does it go straight to you? That wouldn't accomplish much now would it?

You can PM me with the information or you can delete this post and ban me. If you choose the latter, keep in mind that people will have seen this before you take that road.

You seem pretty confident of your ability to compel others to do exactly what you want.

You started out with "you are speaking to me? I have made no comments that would warrant you to speak to me."

You then insinuate that some alterior motive was behind him becoming a moderator, because he must obviously be such a garbage moderator that there's no legit way he would have been appointed.

Now you're telling him to PM you so the conversation can continue to your standards and threatening that people can see what he's doing when he gives you the ban you've been egging him on to do since your first words toward him? Do you really think he's unaware of the nature of the Internet and thinks no one would see it? You assume that your name and opinion carries so much weight that others will mourn your loss and scorn him in your absence?

WOW. I can't imagine a moderator on any forum putting up with the shit you've slung here. Get your sense of self worth in check.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #411 on: March 05, 2019, 09:42:50 PM »
Actually I was faithful that you would realize your approach to confrontation/debate is inconsistent with what you want reciprocated. You know, do unto others. But this latest response is just more evidence of the same. I agree, you probably shouldn't have responded. My approach, like many others, wasn't to you liking.

I will respond to this one because I had a very different impression of what you were trying to do. If you are trying to get me to engage in a better fashion I am happy to do so. I have no problems with that at all.

I'll be honest in that I am actually trying very hard to be respectful and courteous. I'm happy for you to provide me with criticisms of how I am engaging here to try and improve on it. It's probably better to send me a PM but I'm happy to discuss it within this thread as well.

I don't want to be inconsistent at all.

At the same this is taking up too much of my time and I'd like to stop engaging.

Indexer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #412 on: March 05, 2019, 10:07:41 PM »
1. Our media is biased. I don't just mean biased in terms of how they state their opinions. I mean biased in what they report VS don't report.

On that note, while I wish CNN & MSNBC were unbiased, their bias is NOT comparable to Fox News. 10 years ago Fox was biased to the point of being misleading. Now it's total dog $#!^, spinning up conspiracy stories and defending Trump against all reason. Remember how Trump thought there were ISIS members in the caravan? He saw that on Fox and the story was completely fabricated. A line has been crossed and the spread of misinformation is becoming destructive!


Trump actually didn't say ISIS members were in the caravan... he said unknown middle easterners.  As for the ISIS/Caravan connection, you are fabricating this.  The actual report was pointing out 100's of ISIS affiliated terrorists were caught in Guatemala and it's not unreasonable to suggest that POTENTIALLY these caravans could be a security risk accordingly.  In fact, he even says "Just to be clear, POTENTIAL."

Here is the actual video.  Nowhere did they claim ISIS was in the caravan.  It's a discussion about a lack of security at a time that 100's of ISIS terrorists are caught in the same areas the caravans are being created.  It's a discussion about very reasonable concerns that these mass caravans can be security risks due to gangs and terrorists.

https://video.foxnews.com/v/5851913333001/#sp=show-clips

As you can see, you are just, wrong.  And why did you believe this?  Because you pay attention to ACTUAL biased reporting that has completely fooled you.  You would be well served watching Fox News with an open mind in addition to other news sources, so you can form much more informed thoughts on the topic.  I mostly enjoy watching CNN and Fox News.  I find the news portion of CNN to be more biased than Fox (not to confuse news with opinion commentators), but they do have some pretty decent stories with some balanced segments here and there.  I find the NEWS portion of Fox News to generally be really good and pretty damn fair.  The opinion shows are total right wing biased, but these are opinion shows, I understand the difference...  I wouldn't watch Maddow on MSNBC and expect a balanced news affair either.

I sense some hostility and accusations...  I'll give you that Trump didn't specifically say ISIS, just unknown middle easterners*. I didn't get any of that from biased reporting so please tone down the accusations. I saw someone post there were ISIS members in the caravan and they sourced the Fox video, and when I fact checked it I found it was totally BS. By fact checking, I read the original newspaper that Fox used as their source and it didn't say what Fox said it did.

*Fow News also believed Trump said there was ISIS in the Caravan https://youtu.be/0uuKw8Eq8RA so I'm not the only one who thought that.

From the video you linked:

"Those were just the ones that were actually caught. So could more ISIS terrorists be embedded in the ranks of the central american migrants?" 

Someone hearing that might think the captured terrorists were embedded in the caravan, but you're right. It doesn't explicitly say they were in the caravan. It's misleading, but not an out right fabrication. The video I originally saw was...

https://youtu.be/OlEyTEwvcr0 1:40 into the video. He is saying that the ISIS fighters were trying to join the caravan.



Here is the original source BTW:  https://www.prensalibre.com/guatemala/politica/captura-de-terroristas-de-isis-es-informacion-protegida-segun-el-ejecutivo/

The article doesn't talk at all about caravans. It's about security, and considering one of the examples they gave was in 2016 it's safe to say the 100 middle easterners who were deported were captured over several years. For context, this also all happened before there was a caravan in Guatemala.


Opinion shows VS news:  I agree, the news is more reliable than the opinion shows. However, they are all under the Fox News banner so if they are spouting nonsense it's fair to call them out on it.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 10:18:27 PM by Indexer »

Versatile

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 125
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #413 on: March 05, 2019, 10:10:01 PM »
Fuzzy Math

Please point out anywhere in this thread that warranted him threatening to ban me. My sin was defending Steveo's right to his thoughts and life experiences. I have not read all of Steveo's posts from other threads and I was specifically defending his right to say what he had said in this thread. I am still perplexed at what Stevio has done wrong other than disagreeing with the mod.

I asked him (Frugal) if he was addressing me because of his lecture in a response to me. Again, this is confusing because I hadn't opined on any of the subject at that point. It's guilt by association because I had the nerve to defend another poster.

I am curious how he was appointed his position because in this thread he has been completely unprofessional. Maybe he's having a bad day but no rational person is going to read his posts and not wonder how he's a mod. Please re-read what he has written.

He defends this behavior by claiming to shut down Neo-nazi's and protecting women and people of color. Who in this thread is even remotely close to attacking those groups or associated with Nazi's? It's ridiculous. And furthermore, how condescending is it to those groups with the implication that they can't defend themselves? Look, I appreciate how hard it is to be fair and keep an open dialogue but this is not how it's done.

He doesn't have to PM me, he can give me the information right here on this thread. I do intend to file a complaint. It might get shit-canned but his behavior is bordering on the tyrannical. I would really like to know who is setting the rules for discourse. What do the other mods think of this behavior?

Lastly, I don't assume anything and I put that line about deletion in because partly he is acting so erratically and also he's already deleted a post of his where he basically accused half of the United States of being racists and belonging to the clan. And yeah, nobody is going to miss me but this poor behavior needs to be called out.




FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 649
  • Location: Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #414 on: March 06, 2019, 05:02:48 AM »
Quote
But no, I don't know how you got the job or what your boss's guidelines are for discussion. Is it anything different from normal, fair discourse? I wouldn't think so.
Did you notice it's an early retirement forum?  The purpose of the forum is to get as many people involved as possible, to be as open and inclusive as possible.

So if you're into posting bigoted crap on the forums, you're gone.
If you're into trying to make large chunks of our membership feel like this is a white man's club with claims of Reverse Racism being the only Real Discrimination (TM), you're gone.

Toque.
I would like to make a formal complaint about your behavior. Completely unprofessional and erratic. You are threatening me without cause.

No one's threatening you with anything.  You said I should allow dissenting opinions, chiming in with steveo's "liberals are too extreme" campaign, and I explained to you what sort of racist, sexist and otherwise bigoted opinions I specifically do not tolerate.  I'll remind you again that I've had to deal with stormfront and other such gits here.

The "you" in the above sentence is clearly not directed at "You, Versatile" but at any user who engages in those behaviours.  ("If you run a red light, you'll get a ticket" doesn't mean "I accuse you, Versatile, of running red lights").  You can stop playing the victim now.

Toque.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2532
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #415 on: March 06, 2019, 05:09:06 AM »
Actually I was faithful that you would realize your approach to confrontation/debate is inconsistent with what you want reciprocated. You know, do unto others. But this latest response is just more evidence of the same. I agree, you probably shouldn't have responded. My approach, like many others, wasn't to you liking.

I will respond to this one because I had a very different impression of what you were trying to do. If you are trying to get me to engage in a better fashion I am happy to do so. I have no problems with that at all.

I'll be honest in that I am actually trying very hard to be respectful and courteous. I'm happy for you to provide me with criticisms of how I am engaging here to try and improve on it. It's probably better to send me a PM but I'm happy to discuss it within this thread as well.

I don't want to be inconsistent at all.

At the same this is taking up too much of my time and I'd like to stop engaging.

Yes! I didn't come here to argue as there are more than enough folks doing that. You really seem to want to get your point across and I understand that. Had I engaged, I would have with the initial implication that you had already labeled me as some fringe liberal. Stop the labels! Full stop. You said you would but then continued. And added some unnecessary implied insults. You and I both know labels and insults are not part of a productive conversation. I had no ill intent. We are all humans, I get that. I reduce thing to labels at times as well, especially when frustration sets in. I think with you, you just rubbed a lot of people the wrong way by labeling them all "extreme" immediately.  Perhaps that is a label you should just keep internally to yourself? 

PoutineLover

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #416 on: March 06, 2019, 05:41:14 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #417 on: March 06, 2019, 05:51:09 AM »
1. Our media is biased. I don't just mean biased in terms of how they state their opinions. I mean biased in what they report VS don't report.

On that note, while I wish CNN & MSNBC were unbiased, their bias is NOT comparable to Fox News. 10 years ago Fox was biased to the point of being misleading. Now it's total dog $#!^, spinning up conspiracy stories and defending Trump against all reason. Remember how Trump thought there were ISIS members in the caravan? He saw that on Fox and the story was completely fabricated. A line has been crossed and the spread of misinformation is becoming destructive!


Trump actually didn't say ISIS members were in the caravan... he said unknown middle easterners.  As for the ISIS/Caravan connection, you are fabricating this.  The actual report was pointing out 100's of ISIS affiliated terrorists were caught in Guatemala and it's not unreasonable to suggest that POTENTIALLY these caravans could be a security risk accordingly.  In fact, he even says "Just to be clear, POTENTIAL."

Here is the actual video.  Nowhere did they claim ISIS was in the caravan.  It's a discussion about a lack of security at a time that 100's of ISIS terrorists are caught in the same areas the caravans are being created.  It's a discussion about very reasonable concerns that these mass caravans can be security risks due to gangs and terrorists.

https://video.foxnews.com/v/5851913333001/#sp=show-clips

As you can see, you are just, wrong.  And why did you believe this?  Because you pay attention to ACTUAL biased reporting that has completely fooled you.  You would be well served watching Fox News with an open mind in addition to other news sources, so you can form much more informed thoughts on the topic.  I mostly enjoy watching CNN and Fox News.  I find the news portion of CNN to be more biased than Fox (not to confuse news with opinion commentators), but they do have some pretty decent stories with some balanced segments here and there.  I find the NEWS portion of Fox News to generally be really good and pretty damn fair.  The opinion shows are total right wing biased, but these are opinion shows, I understand the difference...  I wouldn't watch Maddow on MSNBC and expect a balanced news affair either.

I sense some hostility and accusations...  I'll give you that Trump didn't specifically say ISIS, just unknown middle easterners*. I didn't get any of that from biased reporting so please tone down the accusations. I saw someone post there were ISIS members in the caravan and they sourced the Fox video, and when I fact checked it I found it was totally BS. By fact checking, I read the original newspaper that Fox used as their source and it didn't say what Fox said it did.

*Fow News also believed Trump said there was ISIS in the Caravan https://youtu.be/0uuKw8Eq8RA so I'm not the only one who thought that.

From the video you linked:

"Those were just the ones that were actually caught. So could more ISIS terrorists be embedded in the ranks of the central american migrants?" 

Someone hearing that might think the captured terrorists were embedded in the caravan, but you're right. It doesn't explicitly say they were in the caravan. It's misleading, but not an out right fabrication. The video I originally saw was...

https://youtu.be/OlEyTEwvcr0 1:40 into the video. He is saying that the ISIS fighters were trying to join the caravan.



Here is the original source BTW:  https://www.prensalibre.com/guatemala/politica/captura-de-terroristas-de-isis-es-informacion-protegida-segun-el-ejecutivo/

The article doesn't talk at all about caravans. It's about security, and considering one of the examples they gave was in 2016 it's safe to say the 100 middle easterners who were deported were captured over several years. For context, this also all happened before there was a caravan in Guatemala.


Opinion shows VS news:  I agree, the news is more reliable than the opinion shows. However, they are all under the Fox News banner so if they are spouting nonsense it's fair to call them out on it.

There was nothing misleading at all about the Fox News segment I posted.  And even the one you posted, you completely misrepresented what was said.  For one, the video starts with Trump saying there are bad criminal elements within the migrant caravan.  This is absolutely true.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/border-patrol-agents-arrest-caravan-member-ms-13-ties

What is offensive or misleading about this?

And as for 1:40 in the video.  It seems odd that you would post the video then intentionally misrepresent what was said.  Did you hope I wouldn't watch it?  "They caught over 100 ISIS fighters in Guatemala... Could they use this caravan or other crossings?  We don't know.  It hasn't been verified.  But even one poison pill is too many"

What is so misleading about that?  Where is the "ISIS IS IN THE CARAVANS" lie?

This kind of proves the point, no?  On another thread I saw someone on this site imply anyone who watches Fox News is a racist.  Now people are writing that Fox News just openly lies and pushes false narratives, but further review has proven that to be false based on the evidence provided.  Fox News leans right for sure.  CNN/MSNBC lean left.  That's not shocking.  Nobody is a racist for watching the news.  And Fox News is just as much "news" as CNN and MSNBC.  Have we really become so polarized in this country that we stigmatize people over watching the news?  Things are just so damn crazy right now and this thread is all the proof you need of that!  And I hold everyone accountable.  Right wingers are often as zealous and insulting about people who watch MSNBC and read HuffPo.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #418 on: March 06, 2019, 06:03:34 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.

madgeylou

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #419 on: March 06, 2019, 06:31:49 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.

Why wouldn't there be open hostility against conservatives? So many of them are actively trying to turn the US and many other parts of the world into authoritarian regimes. So many of them are just fine with separating brown children from parents because they are brown. So many of them are openly attempting to strip the US down for parts, lining their own pockets while trusting the dumbest white people to blame the brown people around them. All of these are despicable acts and worth of hostile reactions.

Also, what you are talking about is a false equivalence. Conservatives have chosen to cast their lot with a racist (yes), greedy (yes), hypocritical (yes), pathological liar (yes), asshole of a leader who brushes aside facts and actively promotes lies. Telling these conservatives that they are full of shit is not the same as telling black people and women -- who have experienced and suffered from institutionalized racism and sexism -- that those forces don't exist.

Conservatives who don't want to be judged by the worst behavior of the group they've chosen to be part of can either choose to be part of a different group, or can look at their experiences as a teeny tiny taste of what people who actually face societal discrimination go through every day.

PoutineLover

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #420 on: March 06, 2019, 06:32:20 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.
There's a difference between getting castigated for your views versus getting attacked for who you are as a person. Conservative is not a protected class, and it shouldn't be. When you are a woman, a person of color or an lgbt person, you can't change that identity, and discrimination based on who you are is a real thing, not discrimination for your political views.
I personally find many of the views epoused by forum members to be very conservative, especially compared to the typical discourse in Canada, so yes, I think conservatives are welcome here. That doesn't mean we have to accept people making outlandish statements with no evidence, inflammatory statements or ideologies that harm people on here.
If you get called racist or sexist, I think some examination of why that might have happened is in order. Often people don't recognize their own bigotry, even when it is obvious to others. I find it sexist and racist to suggest that women are just not suited to be president, that natural gender roles are why women are so underrepresented in politics and management and that black people commit more crimes and are disproportionately shot and in jail because they idealize the thug life, all statements that have been made in this thread (but I haven't gone back to check who said them). It doesn't necessarily mean that the person saying that is a Racist or a Misogynist, but they hold some misogynist and racist views. Everyone has ingrained biases, and we all have work to do to unpack them.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #421 on: March 06, 2019, 06:34:49 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.

Why wouldn't there be open hostility against conservatives? So many of them are actively trying to turn the US and many other parts of the world into authoritarian regimes. So many of them are just fine with separating brown children from parents because they are brown. So many of them are openly attempting to strip the US down for parts, lining their own pockets while trusting the dumbest white people to blame the brown people around them. All of these are despicable acts and worth of hostile reactions.

Also, what you are talking about is a false equivalence. Conservatives have chosen to cast their lot with a racist (yes), greedy (yes), hypocritical (yes), pathological liar (yes), asshole of a leader who brushes aside facts and actively promotes lies. Telling these conservatives that they are full of shit is not the same as telling black people and women -- who have experienced and suffered from institutionalized racism and sexism -- that those forces don't exist.

Conservatives who don't want to be judged by the worst behavior of the group they've chosen to be part of can either choose to be part of a different group, or can look at their experiences as a teeny tiny taste of what people who actually face societal discrimination go through every day.

Thank you for proving my point.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2532
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #422 on: March 06, 2019, 06:34:59 AM »
Now people are writing that Fox News just openly lies and pushes false narratives, but further review has proven that to be false based on the evidence provided.

Let's be clear, Fox does in fact openly lie and pushes false narratives. Your one anecdote doesn't debunk the plethora of known lies it has pushed over the years. I am not defending any media outlets, but I will call out absolute BS when I see it. Feel free to fact check these:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/feb/26/fact-checks-behind-daily-shows-50-fox-news-lies/

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #423 on: March 06, 2019, 06:38:13 AM »
Now people are writing that Fox News just openly lies and pushes false narratives, but further review has proven that to be false based on the evidence provided.

Let's be clear, Fox does in fact openly lie and pushes false narratives. Your one anecdote doesn't debunk the plethora of known lies it has pushed over the years. I am not defending any media outlets, but I will call out absolute BS when I see it. Feel free to fact check these:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/feb/26/fact-checks-behind-daily-shows-50-fox-news-lies/

ALL news sources have pushed false narratives.  It's a ridiculous 24/7 news cycle and ratings race.  They all make mistakes - almost daily.  The point I'm making is that we shouldn't be labeling people by the news they watch or pretending like one holds some sort or high ground over the other - because they all suck in their own way.

madgeylou

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #424 on: March 06, 2019, 06:38:32 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.

Why wouldn't there be open hostility against conservatives? So many of them are actively trying to turn the US and many other parts of the world into authoritarian regimes. So many of them are just fine with separating brown children from parents because they are brown. So many of them are openly attempting to strip the US down for parts, lining their own pockets while trusting the dumbest white people to blame the brown people around them. All of these are despicable acts and worth of hostile reactions.

Also, what you are talking about is a false equivalence. Conservatives have chosen to cast their lot with a racist (yes), greedy (yes), hypocritical (yes), pathological liar (yes), asshole of a leader who brushes aside facts and actively promotes lies. Telling these conservatives that they are full of shit is not the same as telling black people and women -- who have experienced and suffered from institutionalized racism and sexism -- that those forces don't exist.

Conservatives who don't want to be judged by the worst behavior of the group they've chosen to be part of can either choose to be part of a different group, or can look at their experiences as a teeny tiny taste of what people who actually face societal discrimination go through every day.

Thank you for proving my point.

And thanks for proving mine, I guess, with this high quality response *eyeroll.*

FYI, your feelings about words like "racism" and "sexism" are not more important than the suffering of actual human people. Talk about a freakin snowflake.

MOD NOTE: Don't be rude, please.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 01:08:06 PM by arebelspy »

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #425 on: March 06, 2019, 06:43:59 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.
There's a difference between getting castigated for your views versus getting attacked for who you are as a person. Conservative is not a protected class, and it shouldn't be. When you are a woman, a person of color or an lgbt person, you can't change that identity, and discrimination based on who you are is a real thing, not discrimination for your political views.
I personally find many of the views epoused by forum members to be very conservative, especially compared to the typical discourse in Canada, so yes, I think conservatives are welcome here. That doesn't mean we have to accept people making outlandish statements with no evidence, inflammatory statements or ideologies that harm people on here.
If you get called racist or sexist, I think some examination of why that might have happened is in order. Often people don't recognize their own bigotry, even when it is obvious to others. I find it sexist and racist to suggest that women are just not suited to be president, that natural gender roles are why women are so underrepresented in politics and management and that black people commit more crimes and are disproportionately shot and in jail because they idealize the thug life, all statements that have been made in this thread (but I haven't gone back to check who said them). It doesn't necessarily mean that the person saying that is a Racist or a Misogynist, but they hold some misogynist and racist views. Everyone has ingrained biases, and we all have work to do to unpack them.


The issue, to reiterate, is that it seems ok to be open hostile to someone who just claims to be conservative or does something as benign as watching Fox News.  Even before any actual positions are discussed.  This mass stereotyping is hypocritical when the same people are talking about having a safe place to discuss.  Just look at madgeylou's comment for proof of that.  It's a diatribe about why it's ok to stereotype all conservatives as racist bigots.  That's about as unwelcoming behavior as I could imagine.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #426 on: March 06, 2019, 06:45:56 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.

Why wouldn't there be open hostility against conservatives? So many of them are actively trying to turn the US and many other parts of the world into authoritarian regimes. So many of them are just fine with separating brown children from parents because they are brown. So many of them are openly attempting to strip the US down for parts, lining their own pockets while trusting the dumbest white people to blame the brown people around them. All of these are despicable acts and worth of hostile reactions.

Also, what you are talking about is a false equivalence. Conservatives have chosen to cast their lot with a racist (yes), greedy (yes), hypocritical (yes), pathological liar (yes), asshole of a leader who brushes aside facts and actively promotes lies. Telling these conservatives that they are full of shit is not the same as telling black people and women -- who have experienced and suffered from institutionalized racism and sexism -- that those forces don't exist.

Conservatives who don't want to be judged by the worst behavior of the group they've chosen to be part of can either choose to be part of a different group, or can look at their experiences as a teeny tiny taste of what people who actually face societal discrimination go through every day.

Thank you for proving my point.

And thanks for proving mine, I guess, with this high quality response *eyeroll.*

FYI, your feelings about words like "racism" and "sexism" are not more important than the suffering of actual human people. Talk about a freakin snowflake.

What did I even say about racism and sexism?  I haven't even discussed that topic.  Snowflake?  Lol.  Look how angry and wound up you are.  Over what?  Someone who said we should be accepting of everyone who is not a racist asshole?  That we shouldn't stereotype and degrade other human beings?  That offends you this much?  You have lost your marbles.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #427 on: March 06, 2019, 06:49:38 AM »
The same [Republican Senator introduced] with massive Criminal Justice Reform that was actually passed.  All the talk of this racist administration, while they were passing massive criminal justice reform which was targeted at helping minority communities and unjust sentencing.

Okay. I mean I agree, yes it's great that this passed. Let's not forget however that this was an extremely bipartisan bill, passing 87-12 in the Senate (and all 12 "NOs" were R) and 358-36 in the House (and all 36 "NOs" were R).

Let's also not forget that Trump:
A) Needs every bit of good PR he can get.
B) Would have obviously been overridden if he had vetoed it.

I think the point that we can all look at the one or two good things that have happened is a valid one, but it's not like this is incredibly strong evidence that Trump is not a racist. It's not like Trump was the driver behind this reform, people had been trying to get it done since 2015.

I think you aren't being fair.  You write this as though the Democratic house championed the bill and Trump passed it for good PR.  Criminal justice reform came FROM the white house.  It was Kushner who put it together.  And the fact that some R's voted against it only proves that this administration isn't beholden to the Republican party.  If anything, it shows they are more concerned about just doing good shit and working in a bipartisan way.  This bill was proof of it.  There is no doubt the Democrats are obstructionists.  I'm not giving the R's a pass either, they were obstructionists during Obamas terms.  I hated them for it then, and I hate the Dems for it now.  It's so counterproductive and I'm sick of individual parties wishing failure just to make whatever current administration is in power look bad.

  • This reform that was designed in 2015 (by Grassley, R) came from the Trump White house.
  • All credit for this very bipartisan bill goes to Republicans.
  • The fact that many (and only) Republicans voted against it is a good thing because it shows they're not monolithically for good bills.
  • The Democrats (who all voted for it) are obviously just obstructing everything that comes from the Trump white house (like this bill supposedly) just like the Republicans did Obama. Both sides.

???

I responded with hard facts and I thought a neutral tone because I though you were not being fair. You are heaping praise on the Trump administration and Republicans in general while at the same time demonizing Democrats, even though more Democrats crossed the isle and voted for it than Republicans voted for their own bill!

I'm all for bipartisan compromise. That's how the system is supposed to work. And it did, in this one case. So hooray! This is not proof that the Trump is not a racist or that Republicans are not obviously more unwilling to compromise, as you are trying to claim it as.

Edit: not that it matters but you're also wrong about it being a "Democratic House". This bill was passed in the lame-duck portion of the 2018 Congress, which means the House was still controlled by Republicans. Still doesn't change the vote count.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 07:00:01 AM by sherr »

madgeylou

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #428 on: March 06, 2019, 06:50:42 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.

Why wouldn't there be open hostility against conservatives? So many of them are actively trying to turn the US and many other parts of the world into authoritarian regimes. So many of them are just fine with separating brown children from parents because they are brown. So many of them are openly attempting to strip the US down for parts, lining their own pockets while trusting the dumbest white people to blame the brown people around them. All of these are despicable acts and worth of hostile reactions.

Also, what you are talking about is a false equivalence. Conservatives have chosen to cast their lot with a racist (yes), greedy (yes), hypocritical (yes), pathological liar (yes), asshole of a leader who brushes aside facts and actively promotes lies. Telling these conservatives that they are full of shit is not the same as telling black people and women -- who have experienced and suffered from institutionalized racism and sexism -- that those forces don't exist.

Conservatives who don't want to be judged by the worst behavior of the group they've chosen to be part of can either choose to be part of a different group, or can look at their experiences as a teeny tiny taste of what people who actually face societal discrimination go through every day.

Thank you for proving my point.

And thanks for proving mine, I guess, with this high quality response *eyeroll.*

FYI, your feelings about words like "racism" and "sexism" are not more important than the suffering of actual human people. Talk about a freakin snowflake.

What did I even say about racism and sexism?  I haven't even discussed that topic.  Snowflake?  Lol.  Look how angry and wound up you are.  Over what?  Someone who said we should be accepting of everyone who is not a racist asshole?  That we shouldn't stereotype and degrade other human beings?  That offends you this much?  You have lost your marbles.

You are misunderstanding (perhaps willfully) and I'm not surprised.

I'm not offended by the idea of not stereotyping and degrading other human beings. I'm offended -- or I guess irritated is the better word -- that you're leaping to the defense of people who already have all the damn power, and not the folks who are at the pointy end of these words that are apparently so hurtful to the poor conservatives.

Like, how dare anyone accuse someone who supports a baldly racist regime of being racist? The fact that this is what you are concerned about speaks volumes about the way you think about the world, and it's harming actual people's lives, and it's bullshit. THAT is what I object to.

I for one am not interested in being part of a community that makes a safe space for that kind of bullshit and I appreciate Toque as a moderator not letting it stand.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 06:52:24 AM by madgeylou »

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 649
  • Location: Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #429 on: March 06, 2019, 06:52:10 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.
Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?
Conservatives don't get the same treatment they're used to, sure.
So maybe you don't feel "welcome".  I don't believe, however, that you have any reason to feel "unsafe".

"Conservative" is a point of view, a way of looking at the world.
It explicitly favours low taxation, low government services.
It generally implies a willingness to ignore or downplay societal ills like racism, sexism and poverty.
Specifically, it wants to avoid government interventions to repair such societal problems, assuming that lowering taxes on the rich will trickle down to the poor and eventually take care of such problems.

Quote
I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News). 
The quote you're talking about, which I saw flagged for moderation was that the poster opined, paraphrasing, "He watched Fox News.  No surprise he was a racist."  That's stating that racists tend to accumulate around Fox News viewing (true), not that all Fox viewers are racists (false).

Toque.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2532
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #430 on: March 06, 2019, 06:53:30 AM »
Now people are writing that Fox News just openly lies and pushes false narratives, but further review has proven that to be false based on the evidence provided.

Let's be clear, Fox does in fact openly lie and pushes false narratives. Your one anecdote doesn't debunk the plethora of known lies it has pushed over the years. I am not defending any media outlets, but I will call out absolute BS when I see it. Feel free to fact check these:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/feb/26/fact-checks-behind-daily-shows-50-fox-news-lies/

ALL news sources have pushed false narratives.  It's a ridiculous 24/7 news cycle and ratings race.  They all make mistakes - almost daily.  The point I'm making is that we shouldn't be labeling people by the news they watch or pretending like one holds some sort or high ground over the other - because they all suck in their own way.

Except that isn't what you stated. And they aren't making mistakes. They are purposefully lying. That list does not contain "mistakes." It contains outright lies that fox has openly espoused on it's network. It's done purposefully and maliciously. 

FreshPrincess

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #431 on: March 06, 2019, 06:58:57 AM »
The most extreme person here is steveo, and he's inflaming the conversation himself, maybe to prove a point? Anyway, it doesn't add to the debate when someone acts like that, and i personally appreciate toque making the rules clear and making sure that everyone has a safe and welcoming place to chat.

Would you say that this site feels as welcoming and safe for conservatives as it does for non-conservatives?

I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News).  Comments like that are not only tolerated, but seem acceptable. The site can have it's own standard, it's fine.  But can you see how all the safe/welcoming talk can come off as a bit hypocritical to some posters?  For what it's worth, I like having a moderator that bans Storm Front fucks and racist losers.  But if we are going to talk about being welcoming and a safe place for all, then we should also at least recognize the open hostility towards posters that lean conservative.

Why wouldn't there be open hostility against conservatives? So many of them are actively trying to turn the US and many other parts of the world into authoritarian regimes. So many of them are just fine with separating brown children from parents because they are brown. So many of them are openly attempting to strip the US down for parts, lining their own pockets while trusting the dumbest white people to blame the brown people around them. All of these are despicable acts and worth of hostile reactions.

Also, what you are talking about is a false equivalence. Conservatives have chosen to cast their lot with a racist (yes), greedy (yes), hypocritical (yes), pathological liar (yes), asshole of a leader who brushes aside facts and actively promotes lies. Telling these conservatives that they are full of shit is not the same as telling black people and women -- who have experienced and suffered from institutionalized racism and sexism -- that those forces don't exist.

Conservatives who don't want to be judged by the worst behavior of the group they've chosen to be part of can either choose to be part of a different group, or can look at their experiences as a teeny tiny taste of what people who actually face societal discrimination go through every day.

Thank you for proving my point.

And thanks for proving mine, I guess, with this high quality response *eyeroll.*

FYI, your feelings about words like "racism" and "sexism" are not more important than the suffering of actual human people. Talk about a freakin snowflake.

To be fair, you didn't exactly leave him much room to allow for any kind of "response" - could he have said anything to change your mind about what you posted?  I think THAT'S his point.  You have completely shut down any room for debate that conservatives are not bad people.  Your mind is clearly made up. 

madgeylou

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #432 on: March 06, 2019, 07:01:35 AM »
To be fair, you didn't exactly leave him much room to allow for any kind of "response" - could he have said anything to change your mind about what you posted?  I think THAT'S his point.  You have completely shut down any room for debate that conservatives are not bad people.  Your mind is clearly made up.

I'm not that concerned with whether conservatives 'are bad people' or not. I'm concerned about the horrible things they are DOING to the planet and to other human beings. I don't care about their souls; I care about their actions, which are shit.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #433 on: March 06, 2019, 07:04:48 AM »
Quote
I think one issue I have is that the site seems to openly allow stereotyping of conservatives as racist, sexist, bigots.  Comments like on another thread that literally said anyone who watches Fox News is a racist (obviously conservatives tend to watch Fox News). 
The quote you're talking about, which I saw flagged for moderation was that the poster opined, paraphrasing, "He watched Fox News.  No surprise he was a racist."  That's stating that racists tend to accumulate around Fox News viewing (true), not that all Fox viewers are racists (false).

I disagree actually. It does imply that Fox News at least leads people in the direction of racism. Which I also think is true. It is obviously also true that not all Fox News viewers are racist, and that that statement doesn't imply that.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #434 on: March 06, 2019, 07:05:38 AM »
The quote you're talking about, which I saw flagged for moderation was that the poster opined, paraphrasing, "He watched Fox News.  No surprise he was a racist."  That's stating that racists tend to accumulate around Fox News viewing (true), not that all Fox viewers are racists (false).

Toque.

I had to go back to the thread as I don't remember there being a "no surprise he was a racist" comment.  It appears that's the comment that started the discussion.  That's not the one that stuck in my mind, it was this one:

"Fox News regularly touts racist views, so yes, I assume that people who prefer to get their news from there are fine with racism."

That's not saying racists tend to accumulate around Fox News, it's saying anyone who prefers to get their news from Fox are racists.  In other words, all Fox News viewers are racists.  That broad stereotyping is unhelpful and not welcoming at all, would you not agree?

Anyways, it doesn't really matter.  As I said, this site can operate and moderate however they wish.  There is no doubt that it's somewhat hostile towards those with conservative views.  If that's acceptable, then so be it.  Who really cares at the end of the day?  I'm here for all the great financial discussions, so I should probably take my own advice from a previous post and leave this off-topic craziness.  At least it's clearly labeled "Off-Topic"!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 07:10:42 AM by ChewMeUp »

fuzzy math

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1034
  • Age: 38
  • Location: PNW ---> Midwest (for now)
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #435 on: March 06, 2019, 07:08:24 AM »
Actually I was faithful that you would realize your approach to confrontation/debate is inconsistent with what you want reciprocated. You know, do unto others. But this latest response is just more evidence of the same. I agree, you probably shouldn't have responded. My approach, like many others, wasn't to you liking.

I will respond to this one because I had a very different impression of what you were trying to do. If you are trying to get me to engage in a better fashion I am happy to do so. I have no problems with that at all.

I'll be honest in that I am actually trying very hard to be respectful and courteous. I'm happy for you to provide me with criticisms of how I am engaging here to try and improve on it. It's probably better to send me a PM but I'm happy to discuss it within this thread as well.

I don't want to be inconsistent at all.

At the same this is taking up too much of my time and I'd like to stop engaging.

Yes! I didn't come here to argue as there are more than enough folks doing that. You really seem to want to get your point across and I understand that. Had I engaged, I would have with the initial implication that you had already labeled me as some fringe liberal. Stop the labels! Full stop. You said you would but then continued. And added some unnecessary implied insults. You and I both know labels and insults are not part of a productive conversation. I had no ill intent. We are all humans, I get that. I reduce thing to labels at times as well, especially when frustration sets in. I think with you, you just rubbed a lot of people the wrong way by labeling them all "extreme" immediately.  Perhaps that is a label you should just keep internally to yourself?

Seconded.

Steveo, I have been trying to come up with an explanation for your behavior here and I have to wonder if a lot of it is that you're Australian, not American. Your politics are not the same as American politics and you don't have to live here under the president we live with and you don't see the daily effects of American slavery on American racism. The most outrageous political chat I've seen on this board has come from Aussies in general (Adam Schaunt) and I just have to wonder what sort of news hits your TVs about what goes on here. I tend to find that the Canadians are much more in tune with the shit that's happening at their hotly contested southern border.

You're welcome to chime in on American politics of course, but take it with a grain of salt that the argument that we're having here is different than the argument that you're having.  Perhaps give us the benefit of the doubt that we know better what's going on in our own country. It also helps as a point of reference when you're insulting people (which you shouldn't do to begin with) to clarify whom you're insulting. You entered this argument and engaged for 8 or so pages before telling people you're an Aussie.

EvenSteven

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: St. Louis
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #436 on: March 06, 2019, 07:13:25 AM »
Are you talking about me? I haven't opined on any of this other than I think you shouldn't call Steveo a troll. Do you have a question for me?

He has been warned about his behaviour before.
I referred, in my comment, to you and the rest of "liberals are too extreme" bunch in this thread.

Quote
I have a pretty good sense of what a moderator does and I would think fairness should matter, even to dissenting opinions.
When a bunch of nazi assholes came down to Charlottesville, they also came here, posting links to stormfront and other racist crap.
Do I let neo-nazis express their dissenting opinions?
No.
Do I have to let misogynists blast us about their 1950s based evolutionary psychology?
No.
Do I have to let people come here and tell our black, female or other minorities that their lived experiences, backed up by through sociological studies, are invalid?
No.

My goal here is to keep this forum open to everyone except the intolerant - everyone except those who are trying to freeze others out of the community.

Quote
But no, I don't know how you got the job or what your boss's guidelines are for discussion. Is it anything different from normal, fair discourse? I wouldn't think so.
Did you notice it's an early retirement forum?  The purpose of the forum is to get as many people involved as possible, to be as open and inclusive as possible.

So if you're into posting bigoted crap on the forums, you're gone.
If you're into trying to make large chunks of our membership feel like this is a white man's club with claims of Reverse Racism being the only Real Discrimination (TM), you're gone.

Is that straightforward enough for you?

Toque.

I would like to make a formal complaint about your behavior. Completely unprofessional and erratic. You are threatening me without cause.

Since you are a global moderator, who is your supervisor? If I complain to a moderator, does it go straight to you? That wouldn't accomplish much now would it?

You can PM me with the information or you can delete this post and ban me. If you choose the latter, keep in mind that people will have seen this before you take that road.

Lol. Is it racist and/or sexist of me that this post instantly reminded me of the trope of a white woman in a department store screaming, "I want to speak to your Manager!!"

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16041
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #437 on: March 06, 2019, 07:34:05 AM »
The quote you're talking about, which I saw flagged for moderation was that the poster opined, paraphrasing, "He watched Fox News.  No surprise he was a racist."  That's stating that racists tend to accumulate around Fox News viewing (true), not that all Fox viewers are racists (false).

Toque.

I had to go back to the thread as I don't remember there being a "no surprise he was a racist" comment.  It appears that's the comment that started the discussion.  That's not the one that stuck in my mind, it was this one:

"Fox News regularly touts racist views, so yes, I assume that people who prefer to get their news from there are fine with racism."

That's not saying racists tend to accumulate around Fox News, it's saying anyone who prefers to get their news from Fox are racists.  In other words, all Fox News viewers are racists.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter.  As I said, this site can operate and moderate however they wish.  There is no doubt that it's somewhat hostile towards those with conservative views.  If that's acceptable, then so be it.  Who really cares at the end of the day?  I'm here for all the great financial discussions, so I should probably take my own advice from a previous post and leave this off-topic craziness.  At least it's clearly labeled "Off-Topic"!

There's a weird thing that goes on with conservatives in the US.

They tend to like Fox news.  It openly spouts racist, sexist, and homophobic propaganda on a regular basis.  They like the Republican party, which openly supports and condones racism, homophobia, and sexism.  But no conservative is racist.  No conservative is sexist.  No conservative is homophobic.  And they are shocked (SHOCKED) that someone would mention any of these words.  I get it, those are bad sounding words.

Here's the thing though, if you attend Klan meetings you're going to be seen as a racist by most people.  Even if you're going because you think clean white sheets are spiffy, and even if you have Jewish friends.  By the same token, if you get your news from racist sources and support racists in government (even if it's just because you don't care about race, and even if you have black friends) you're going to be seen in light of that association.

Don't like it?  Cool.  Rather than taking offense at people pointing out the truth, help change the party so that it is no longer acceptable to be racist, sexist, and homophobic.  The party reflects the will of the people who support it.  If they don't listen to you regarding these issues, then stop supporting them.

Versatile

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 125
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #438 on: March 06, 2019, 08:10:38 AM »
Quote
But no, I don't know how you got the job or what your boss's guidelines are for discussion. Is it anything different from normal, fair discourse? I wouldn't think so.
Did you notice it's an early retirement forum?  The purpose of the forum is to get as many people involved as possible, to be as open and inclusive as possible.

So if you're into posting bigoted crap on the forums, you're gone.


If you're into trying to make large chunks of our membership feel like this is a white man's club with claims of Reverse Racism being the only Real Discrimination (TM), you're gone.

Toque.
I would like to make a formal complaint about your behavior. Completely unprofessional and erratic. You are threatening me without cause.

No one's threatening you with anything.  You said I should allow dissenting opinions, chiming in with steveo's "liberals are too extreme" campaign, and I explained to you what sort of racist, sexist and otherwise bigoted opinions I specifically do not tolerate.  I'll remind you again that I've had to deal with stormfront and other such gits here.

The "you" in the above sentence is clearly not directed at "You, Versatile" but at any user who engages in those behaviours.  ("If you run a red light, you'll get a ticket" doesn't mean "I accuse you, Versatile, of running red lights").  You can stop playing the victim now.

Toque.

No victim here my friend. I'm calling out your poor behavior. If you expected me or anybody else to read what you specifically sent to me twice as anything other than a threat for the sin of disagreeing with you than you are delusional at best.

Regarding Steveo, again where are the racist, sexist, bigoted views espoused? Enough to send me two warnings? The reason I defended him ( I don't know him at all ) is because of your insistence that his views were over the line. What line did he cross? Perhaps you have a different definition of tolerance to opposing views.

Speaking of: inclusivity. If that is your goal perhaps you should enforce your intolerance policy uniformly. Because right now you basically have a large, flashing, neon sign above the Off-Topics screaming that nobody who is a conservative or even remotely supports the President is welcome here. So that statement of inclusivity is disingenuous at best. Let's drop the pretense.

With that said, it's your dog and pony show. If you want to exclude people, than that's your prerogative. Just stop wth the bullshit though.





 

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2503
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #439 on: March 06, 2019, 08:12:54 AM »
This thread progression is an accurate reflection of the macrocosm the OP was inquiring about.

To be fair, I thought there was some really good discussion over the first few pages. After steveo showed up everything went to shit, but that's no surprise... it's not the first thread he's dragged down. It happens every time he enters the conversation with "let's talk about how the patriarchy is make believe."

Funny thing is I actually agree with some of his points about the misuse of statistics to claim "proof" of something but at the same time he discounts any evidence which doesn't 100% prove a point. This includes any evidence a person could possibly present because social constructs are not a thing you can prove. partgypsy did a good job of explaining how these studies are not each proof of societal racism or sexism on their own, but rather the sum of the evidence provided by these studies leads some to the conclusion that these societal biases exist. I agree with that conclusion, maybe to a lesser extent than some in this thread.

And @steveo I reread the first part of my post and it's a little harsh so I wanted to address you directly. You seem to be upset by the fact that others are attacking you personally because of your opinions. They are attacking you personally and I don't think that's the way to have a honest discussion. However, what you seem to be missing is that they are not attacking you because of your opinion but because you started it :) You may not realize you're doing it but when you explain to someone that they just aren't capable of using logic and reason, that's a personal attack.

It's particularly offensive when someone1 has just taken 30 minutes to read a study in it's entirety, consider the confounding factors (which are generally addressed by the authors), made an honest effort to forget their biases, and come to the conclusion that maybe there's some evidence here that suggests the existence of societal unfairness. Then you come over the top and tell me I'm just not logical enough? Did you even read the study?2

1someone is me in this specific case if that wasn't clear. You never addressed me directly but you implied that anyone who reached my conclusion was illogical

2not referring to any specific study, asking this in a more general way. If you read the studies presented I think you would realize that the authors do their best to account for many of the confounding factors you use to negate their conclusions.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 08:16:03 AM by Dabnasty »

Cool Friend

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 357
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #440 on: March 06, 2019, 08:28:04 AM »
Inclusivity does not mean entertaining intellectually dishonest, bad faith actors. You are not entitled to an audience for your inflammatory script.

Don’t engage with these people. For all their maudlin rhetoric about fair discussion and “logic,” that’s not what they’re here for.  They want you to be bound by debate rules they have no interest in participating with themselves, so they can break down and put a stop to discussion.

Sailor Sam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #441 on: March 06, 2019, 08:30:40 AM »
Speaking of: inclusivity. If that is your goal perhaps you should enforce your intolerance policy uniformly. Because right now you basically have a large, flashing, neon sign above the Off-Topics screaming that nobody who is a conservative or even remotely supports the President is welcome here. So that statement of inclusivity is disingenuous at best. Let's drop the pretense.

With that said, it's your dog and pony show. If you want to exclude people, than that's your prerogative. Just stop wth the bullshit though.

I hold pretty conservative views, when compared to many of my fellow American posters here. Look at my post count, and see that I'm quite welcome. My strategy is avoid being a dick. Seems to work.

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2503
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #442 on: March 06, 2019, 08:32:44 AM »
The quote you're talking about, which I saw flagged for moderation was that the poster opined, paraphrasing, "He watched Fox News.  No surprise he was a racist."  That's stating that racists tend to accumulate around Fox News viewing (true), not that all Fox viewers are racists (false).

Toque.
I had to go back to the thread as I don't remember there being a "no surprise he was a racist" comment.  It appears that's the comment that started the discussion.  That's not the one that stuck in my mind, it was this one:

"Fox News regularly touts racist views, so yes, I assume that people who prefer to get their news from there are fine with racism."

That's not saying racists tend to accumulate around Fox News, it's saying anyone who prefers to get their news from Fox are racists.  In other words, all Fox News viewers are racists.  That broad stereotyping is unhelpful and not welcoming at all, would you not agree?

The line you quoted absolutely does not say this, it says what it says, which is that viewers are fine with racism. I sort of agree in that if you are watching a program and the host says racist things but you continue to trust the other things that host has to say, you are tolerating racism.

However, it is not accurate to say that this is true of every program on the Fox News channel. There is some legitimate news on this channel, but it's not what non Fox viewers generally think of when we talk about Fox News. So if we were to be more specific and say people who watch and take seriously programs like Fox and Friends or Sean Hannity, well then yes, they are tolerating racism.

I should add that my experience watching Fox News programs is very limited so I really don't know what's being said on a regular basis. I'm judging based on what I've read and a few clips which are probably the worst of the worst examples. Frankly I'm a little judgmental of anyone who gets most of their "news" from the television.

GoHokies

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #443 on: March 06, 2019, 08:37:35 AM »
This thread progression is an accurate reflection of the macrocosm the OP was inquiring about.

This.

I find it hilarious the thread started off asking a question on why politics have to be so divisive and polarizing.  Then after a few replies trying to address the original question, it spirals into the shitstorm of a thread we have now.   This thread just reinforces why I am not interested in politics.  I came into this thread as I was hoping to see some constructive discussion on why politics have gotten so crazy in the US and why I have seen so many of my close friends and family members literally shouting at each other and destroying relationships over some political issue.  What I received is 8-9 pages of people just demonstrating the issue.

To be fair, some members did take a crack at trying to get to the root of the issue and gave some good explanations (particularly those that responded on the first page).   I appreciate those members that did so - I learned a few things from reading their replies and the links they provided.  All the other replies provided some good entertainment, so I guess I appreciate those as well.

shenlong55

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #444 on: March 06, 2019, 08:42:59 AM »
The quote you're talking about, which I saw flagged for moderation was that the poster opined, paraphrasing, "He watched Fox News.  No surprise he was a racist."  That's stating that racists tend to accumulate around Fox News viewing (true), not that all Fox viewers are racists (false).

Toque.

I had to go back to the thread as I don't remember there being a "no surprise he was a racist" comment.  It appears that's the comment that started the discussion.  That's not the one that stuck in my mind, it was this one:

"Fox News regularly touts racist views, so yes, I assume that people who prefer to get their news from there are fine with racism."

That's not saying racists tend to accumulate around Fox News, it's saying anyone who prefers to get their news from Fox are racists.  In other words, all Fox News viewers are racists.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter.  As I said, this site can operate and moderate however they wish.  There is no doubt that it's somewhat hostile towards those with conservative views.  If that's acceptable, then so be it.  Who really cares at the end of the day?  I'm here for all the great financial discussions, so I should probably take my own advice from a previous post and leave this off-topic craziness.  At least it's clearly labeled "Off-Topic"!

There's a weird thing that goes on with conservatives in the US.

They tend to like Fox news.  It openly spouts racist, sexist, and homophobic propaganda on a regular basis.  They like the Republican party, which openly supports and condones racism, homophobia, and sexism.  But no conservative is racist.  No conservative is sexist.  No conservative is homophobic.  And they are shocked (SHOCKED) that someone would mention any of these words.  I get it, those are bad sounding words.

Here's the thing though, if you attend Klan meetings you're going to be seen as a racist by most people.  Even if you're going because you think clean white sheets are spiffy, and even if you have Jewish friends.  By the same token, if you get your news from racist sources and support racists in government (even if it's just because you don't care about race, and even if you have black friends) you're going to be seen in light of that association.

Don't like it?  Cool.  Rather than taking offense at people pointing out the truth, help change the party so that it is no longer acceptable to be racist, sexist, and homophobic.  The party reflects the will of the people who support it.  If they don't listen to you regarding these issues, then stop supporting them.

+1

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2532
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #445 on: March 06, 2019, 08:59:18 AM »
The quote you're talking about, which I saw flagged for moderation was that the poster opined, paraphrasing, "He watched Fox News.  No surprise he was a racist."  That's stating that racists tend to accumulate around Fox News viewing (true), not that all Fox viewers are racists (false).

Toque.

I had to go back to the thread as I don't remember there being a "no surprise he was a racist" comment.  It appears that's the comment that started the discussion.  That's not the one that stuck in my mind, it was this one:

"Fox News regularly touts racist views, so yes, I assume that people who prefer to get their news from there are fine with racism."

That's not saying racists tend to accumulate around Fox News, it's saying anyone who prefers to get their news from Fox are racists.  In other words, all Fox News viewers are racists.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter.  As I said, this site can operate and moderate however they wish.  There is no doubt that it's somewhat hostile towards those with conservative views.  If that's acceptable, then so be it.  Who really cares at the end of the day?  I'm here for all the great financial discussions, so I should probably take my own advice from a previous post and leave this off-topic craziness.  At least it's clearly labeled "Off-Topic"!

There's a weird thing that goes on with conservatives in the US.

They tend to like Fox news.  It openly spouts racist, sexist, and homophobic propaganda on a regular basis.  They like the Republican party, which openly supports and condones racism, homophobia, and sexism.  But no conservative is racist.  No conservative is sexist.  No conservative is homophobic.  And they are shocked (SHOCKED) that someone would mention any of these words.  I get it, those are bad sounding words.

Here's the thing though, if you attend Klan meetings you're going to be seen as a racist by most people.  Even if you're going because you think clean white sheets are spiffy, and even if you have Jewish friends.  By the same token, if you get your news from racist sources and support racists in government (even if it's just because you don't care about race, and even if you have black friends) you're going to be seen in light of that association.

Don't like it?  Cool.  Rather than taking offense at people pointing out the truth, help change the party so that it is no longer acceptable to be racist, sexist, and homophobic.  The party reflects the will of the people who support it.  If they don't listen to you regarding these issues, then stop supporting them.

+1
+2

There is nothing better than being able to take a step back, understand what your morals and values are, and then making an informed decision of who/what to support regardless of political affiliation. I fully stopped supporting and voting Republican once I was able to do this for myself. I am now an independent and vote for who I deem to be the best candidate. I actually thought there were a couple decent Republican candidates in the 2016 election. I was disappointed to see Trump get the nod because I really thought our country wouldn't allow someone of his character to lead our country. Boy was I wrong.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #446 on: March 06, 2019, 09:02:23 AM »
Fox news.  It openly spouts racist, sexist, and homophobic propaganda on a regular basis.  They like the Republican party, which openly supports and condones racism, homophobia, and sexism.

Your premise seems utterly ridiculous to me.  We'll just have to disagree at this point.  I can't start with some sort of assumption that everyone on Fox News and in the Republican party is an open homophobe, sexist and racist.  If that is really your starting point, then you are a big part of the problem with American politics today.  I do not think Republicans are racist, and I don't think every Democrat are communist.  How can you have a discussion with someone who holds such extreme views going either way?

This just, again, proves how stupid and polarizing our 2 party system is.  Where we lump everyone from the other team in to derogatory little categories and demonize them.  Where do you even go from there?  That's not a starting point for a discussion.  That's just anti-intellectual extremism.  And it's a very dangerous way to view the world.  Show a little more love and compassion for people, even those who you may disagree with on some political points.  The best thing I learned at McDonalds, of all places, was "assume innocence" - it's not a good trait to walk around assuming the worst of people.  Start with "they are not racist..."  "they are not communist..."
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 09:04:23 AM by ChewMeUp »

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 649
  • Location: Canada
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #447 on: March 06, 2019, 09:10:43 AM »
Fox news.  It openly spouts racist, sexist, and homophobic propaganda on a regular basis.  They like the Republican party, which openly supports and condones racism, homophobia, and sexism.

Your premise seems utterly ridiculous to me.  We'll just have to disagree at this point.  I can't start with some sort of assumption that everyone on Fox News and in the Republican party is an open homophobe, sexist and racist.

That is specifically what GuitarStv did not say.  Why are you doing that?

The network and major members of the party spout terrible views.  Yet people associated with the network and the party don't like being associated with those terrible views.

Yet somehow, you got to, "You're accusing every Fox News commentator and every Republican of being openly bigoted."

How do you think we can't see you doing this?

Toque.

ChewMeUp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #448 on: March 06, 2019, 09:15:58 AM »
Fox news.  It openly spouts racist, sexist, and homophobic propaganda on a regular basis.  They like the Republican party, which openly supports and condones racism, homophobia, and sexism.

Your premise seems utterly ridiculous to me.  We'll just have to disagree at this point.  I can't start with some sort of assumption that everyone on Fox News and in the Republican party is an open homophobe, sexist and racist.

That is specifically what GuitarStv did not say.  Why are you doing that?

The network and major members of the party spout terrible views.  Yet people associated with the network and the party don't like being associated with those terrible views.

Yet somehow, you got to, "You're accusing every Fox News commentator and every Republican of being openly bigoted."

How do you think we can't see you doing this?

Toque.

I'm sorry.  I don't know what you are accusing me of.  I really don't.  GuitarStv just said Fox News OPENLY spouts racist, sexist, and homophobic propaganda ON A REGULAR BASIS.  And the Republican Party openly supports and condones racism, homophobia, and sexism.

If that's not saying Fox News (and those associated with it) and the Republican Party (ie, Republicans) are not bigoted/racist/sexist, etc.  Then I apologize, I don't understand the logic or what GuitarStv is trying to say.  To me it's absolutely implying Republicans and Fox News is racist/sexist/homophobic.  If I'm misreading it, I'm open to an explanation.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5501
Re: Liberals vs Conservatives - why does it have to be this way?
« Reply #449 on: March 06, 2019, 09:16:49 AM »
Fox news.  It openly spouts racist, sexist, and homophobic propaganda on a regular basis.  They like the Republican party, which openly supports and condones racism, homophobia, and sexism.

Your premise seems utterly ridiculous to me. 

I haven't been participating on this thread, but I have been reading. And I have been trying to resist commenting. But I do want to point one thing out.

ChewMeUp, given this statement by you, I think it's very likely that you don't actually watch Fox News at all (which I find unlikely) or you are perfectly fine with dog whistle -- and sometimes not dog-whistle -- racism, sexism, and homophobia.

Note that I am not calling you a racist/sexist/homophobe. Just someone who willfully ignores racism/sexism/homophobia.