Poll

When it comes to politics, are you more liberal or conservative?

Liberal
189 (54.2%)
Conservative
53 (15.2%)
Populist
7 (2%)
Libertarian
100 (28.7%)

Total Members Voted: 340

Voting closed: January 20, 2016, 12:02:22 PM

Author Topic: Liberal or Conservative?  (Read 67076 times)

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2016, 02:33:44 PM »
That's an interesting perspective.  I've never seen maternity leave as a conservative issue. Haven't heard it trumpeted by too many conservative politicians. Do you have examples? 

Then again our company finally added it, but it's parental leave- the non-delivering (as they put it) spouse gets the same leave as the delivering one, and so do adoptive parents.

I'm mostly thinking of the European experience and "conservatives" interested in defending traditional family norms.  I believe that Bismarck really pioneered the practice, Nazi Germany expanded it, and post-war West Germany solidified it with the "Mutterschutzgesetz" (mother protection law) providing for 6-month leave for parents.  All three were under right-wing governments, and traditionally the CDU/CSU (Catholic/Christian center-right parties, that Merkel is associated with) have been the biggest defenders.  In the 1980s that changed when parental leave was introduced under Kohl.  From my more limited experience living in Scandinavia, the older leave policies were similarly focused on mothers and allowing them to not have to work once they married/had kids, although Scandinavia has obviously pushed parental leave forward from a more feminist/egalitarian perspective.

Post-war Europe (especially in the late 1950s) really clung to traditional gender norms and childrearing norms, maybe in response to the population loss or upset of gender norms in wars (even our Rosie the Riveter fell out of fashion after the war).

pbkmaine

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2016, 02:35:13 PM »

Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Sorry none of the above really captures that so I didn't vote.

+1

Gin1984

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2016, 02:38:09 PM »
Definitely lean liberal (which seems to mean more sort of progressive than Adam Smith liberal), but happily take my left-wing friends to task when I think they're being inconsistent.   I was registered briefly as a Republican when I started voting, but because Philadelphia city politics are Tammany Hall-style Democratic-run bullshit, and coming of age post 9-11 quickly cured me of that leaning.

I wonder if we can use different terms for the poll, especially given the international nature of this site.  I think that, clasically (and for our non-American readers):
  • liberal means Adam Smith-style low interference, but also pro-civil rights, separation of church and state, the pro-business party
  • conservative means using the government to step in and protect a certain social order (usually the historically dominant one, i.e. Christianity and rights for white land-owning men).  I think maternity leave is classically a conservative position, to allow traditional gender roles to continue, although now other group have picked it up for their own reasons.
  • progressive means using the government to protect the economically (and maybe racially, etc) disadvantage, breaking up monopolies, etc.
Given that it is parental leave, not just for the mother, where are you getting that.  Disability covers the woman for 6 weeks because giving birth is a medical leave.

Jack

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2016, 02:44:33 PM »
Sounds to me like "maternity" leave is conservative, while "paternity" leave is liberal, which is an interesting dichotomy.

Speaking of dichotomies, let's say I support the Selective Service -- and say that women should be required to register for it too. Conservative or liberal?

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2016, 02:45:43 PM »
Quote
Given that it is parental leave, not just for the mother, where are you getting that.  Disability covers the woman for 6 weeks because giving birth is a medical leave.

Parental and maternity leaves are different, though.  Or maybe maternity is a subset of parental leave.  The original mother-friendly social welfare policies like maternity leave were largely a conservative undertaking (at least in Europe and I think most of the ex-British empire, US excepted, clearly).  The shift to or addition of parental leave is very recent, even in northern Europe (I think late 1970s for Sweden, 1986 for Federal Republic of Germany).  I'm all about parental leave (plus something extra for biological mothers), but it's historically a project of Christian Democrat-esque policies.

At least in Weimar Germany, there were many socialists and communists who strongly opposed maternity leave for various reasons (the family unit was viewed as suspect as a place for class to be passed down, society-wide communal raising of children was preferred, etc.)  Some modern-day Social Democrat friends and family members of mine in Sweden still see it that way, and would prefer that there be leave to account for biological birth and hardships, and then move to state-supported day care. 

TheNick

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2016, 02:55:42 PM »
always interesting to me how liberals outrank conservatives on something like a site like this which promotes conserving and self-responsibility and in a small business like being a real estate agaent. seems conservatives would rule.

Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it?  Save and invest and retire early...but hey...if you get tax payer subsidized healthcare for life when I retire at 40 while people who are older and still working trying to save for their own retirement, people who have a lot lower of a net worth, and even young people starting families or struggling to pay back student loans have to subsidize it...its all good...screw those people!  Who cares if it makes it more expensive for everyone else...I GOT MINE!

It just seems so wrong how modern liberals are really pushing a "We are all in this together" mind set, and the MMM liberals want to talk to the talk but when it comes time to walk the walk they can't wait to retire, pay as little taxes as possible, and benefit from subsidies as much as possible.  We aren't all in this together when capable people plan on riding on other people's backs...we are all in this together when capable people are picking up the slack for the less capable.

Jack

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2016, 02:58:56 PM »
At least in Weimar Germany, there were many socialists and communists who strongly opposed maternity leave for various reasons (the family unit was viewed as suspect as a place for class to be passed down, society-wide communal raising of children was preferred, etc.)  Some modern-day Social Democrat friends and family members of mine in Sweden still see it that way, and would prefer that there be leave to account for biological birth and hardships, and then move to state-supported day care.

And that, folks, illustrates how there's no such thing as "socialism" in American politics (regardless of what Sanders calls himself) -- actual socialism is crazy extreme stuff like taking kids away from their mothers to be raised by the State.

Travis

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2016, 03:00:54 PM »
I have a difficult time assigning a label to myself because 1) I'm scattered on too many issues to pin myself in a corner and 2) nobody else can really agree to definitions.  It's worse when you're asked what your party is because then they'll automatically assign values to your membership.  Republican and Democrat don't mean conservative and liberal necessarily since those ideas and values change over time, and quite a few positions get checked at the door when an election is at stake. As someone pointed out, a Democrat from Montana and San Francisco could be miles apart on issues.

If I had to assign labels, on social issues I tend to go liberal and conservative on fiscal matters.  I believe in the free market, but with just enough regulation for worker/consumer protections and preventing corruption.  I disapprove of nearly all subsidies, but I'm willing to bend a little on new industries that need to break into a dominated market or when national strategic interests might be at stake.

+100 to the idea that the Republicans are desperately trying to out-crazy each other to hold onto the base of their party.  One candidate wants to put the 1st Amendment in a drawer while another thinks the pyramids were designed to hold grain.  All of them seem to think we should curb-stomp every nation that looks at us funny and physics and medical science are liberal conspiracies.  If you're not praising God, guns, and threatening war every five minutes you don't have a chance in the primary.

On the Dem side all guns are bad, businesses clearing over $1 billion are bad, anyone earning money from the stock market is bad, and any scientific breakthroughs produced by a corporation are conservative conspiracies.  The voters are promised everything they want on a platter and "the rich" will pay for it.  A big part of Sanders' campaign right now seems to be stoking class warfare that everything is the fault of rich people and those evil banks and those evil market forces.  If he could strip that part away I'd be more willing to support him (though I support him more than anyone else at this point taking everything together).  Some of Sanders' economic and fiscal views are extreme, but I also don't see many of them clearing Congress so I'm willing to filter out some of them.  It does make me wonder how much of his rhetoric he believes or if it's just for Democrat consumption.  It doesn't take much understanding of economics to know why college costs as much as it does and promising everyone tuition simply isn't possible.  Just like with the ACA you can't just say "everyone can now go to the doctor" without having a system in place to make sure there are enough doctors.  If everyone went to college, who is going to teach them?

On the whole I don't put much concern into the Primaries because both sides are catering to the extremes of their parties and the winner will change half their positions come summer when they have to start courting the rest of the population.  For some reason we'll be very accomodating and pretend they didn't say half the crap that came out of their mouths in 2015.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2016, 03:15:40 PM »

Given that it is parental leave, not just for the mother, where are you getting that.  Disability covers the woman for 6 weeks because giving birth is a medical leave.

Except disability coverage isn't a given. And it rarely covers a full salary when it is.

iamlindoro

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2016, 03:19:46 PM »
We already did this in way greater detail (but with similar vitriol) here:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/political-leanings-of-mustachians/

SunshineAZ

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2016, 03:21:24 PM »
Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Sorry none of the above really captures that so I didn't vote.
Ditto - with a touch of libertarianism :)

pompera_firpa

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2016, 03:21:43 PM »

Given that it is parental leave, not just for the mother, where are you getting that.  Disability covers the woman for 6 weeks because giving birth is a medical leave.

Except disability coverage isn't a given. And it rarely covers a full salary when it is.

Exactly. I got 6 weeks at 60% pay. I know plenty of people who didn't even get that, and had to use every vacation day and sick day they had.

As far as I'm concerned, the lack of sleep for parents in a kid's first year is a disability in and of itself. People operating on that little sleep shouldn't be driving, and being expected to be intelligent and useful at work? pfffffffffffff.

aceyou

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2016, 07:35:18 PM »
I'd like to vote for a socially liberal, fiscal conservative, who placed a high priority on tackling climate change and balancing a federal budget. 

This person does not exist in politics though, so I might as well be looking for a unicorn. 

Rewdoalb

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2016, 09:21:53 PM »
There was a great article on Bloomberg view pushing for political action from the "radical center". Seems that it'd resonate with many of y'all here. Too much crazy on both sides, which the primaries really bring out.

I'd love to end up with a trustworthy (aka not Hillary) moderate in the vein of kasich. Republican, but left of Bush. The next democrat pres will probably be left of Obama, but we aren't ready for that right now.

Travis

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2016, 09:23:52 PM »
There was a great article on Bloomberg view pushing for political action from the "radical center". Seems that it'd resonate with many of y'all here. Too much crazy on both sides, which the primaries really bring out.

I'd love to end up with a trustworthy (aka not Hillary) moderate in the vein of kasich. Republican, but left of Bush. The next democrat pres will probably be left of Obama, but we aren't ready for that right now.

Centrists don't win primaries. If they do, it's because they were lying about it to get the party nomination going into the general election.

HPstache

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2016, 09:31:50 PM »
Conservative here.  I do lean liberal on a few of the issues... but not many.

woopwoop

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2016, 09:51:28 PM »
no, not conservatives, MMM is pretty counterculture - replace conservative with libertarian and I'd get on board. Case in point we're currently at 25%+ Libertarian where PEW estimates 11% in the US
That seems less about "counterculture" leanings and more about the fact that MMM readers are overwhelmingly young white well-to-do STEM types, the same demographic that skews predictably libertarian.

I don't think that making college free would have as much of a devaluation effect as some people think it would, but it's a solution that focuses on the wrong problem. If K-12 education was improved to the point it should be with more legitimate apprenticeship/enterpreneurship programs, we would have no need for free college. Having free college won't make our eighteen year olds magically better if they've been underserved for the past twelve years of their schooling - that's what needs to be tackled before you start talking higher education.

bacchi

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2016, 10:03:51 PM »
And that, folks, illustrates how there's no such thing as "socialism" in American politics (regardless of what Sanders calls himself) -- actual socialism is crazy extreme stuff like taking kids away from their mothers to be raised by the State.

There is anti-statist socialism, aka Libertarian Socialism. It's pro-union and anti-government. Oh, and anti-capitalist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

Can we add that category to the poll? ;)

tobitonic

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2016, 10:49:33 PM »
always interesting to me how liberals outrank conservatives on something like a site like this which promotes conserving and self-responsibility and in a small business like being a real estate agaent. seems conservatives would rule.

Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it?  Save and invest and retire early...but hey...if you get tax payer subsidized healthcare for life when I retire at 40 while people who are older and still working trying to save for their own retirement, people who have a lot lower of a net worth, and even young people starting families or struggling to pay back student loans have to subsidize it...its all good...screw those people!  Who cares if it makes it more expensive for everyone else...I GOT MINE!

It just seems so wrong how modern liberals are really pushing a "We are all in this together" mind set, and the MMM liberals want to talk to the talk but when it comes time to walk the walk they can't wait to retire, pay as little taxes as possible, and benefit from subsidies as much as possible.  We aren't all in this together when capable people plan on riding on other people's backs...we are all in this together when capable people are picking up the slack for the less capable.

Good points here, and I agree wholeheartedly with your last line.

I'm quite progressive. I believe in things like a basic income, charitable donations, universal healthcare, free education, living wages, capping CEO salaries at...let's say 10x the average employee salary... and I'm also a believer in the idea that those who have a lot should give a lot (rather than flee society and live out their days in wealth), whether in money or in time.

letired

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2016, 10:51:59 PM »
This is a kind of amazing thread (I missed the previous one). I'd love to hear more people's perspective on 'socially liberal, fiscally conservative'.

I used to think that was my position until I thought that one through a bit more. For me, 'socially liberal' includes a very strong 'social safety net', and you don't get that without spending, which I'm all for.

So me: flamingly liberal/progressive (at least, for the USA, I'm sure countries with actual liberal/progressive parties would laugh).

Bateaux

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2016, 11:53:23 PM »
When I was a farm kid working for minimum wage in high school and college I was strongly conservative.  I wouldn't consider voting for anyone other than Republicans.  Slowly as I got older and maxe more money I started to lean towards the left.  It took decades to make the move.  The 2000 presidential election was my first time to vote for a Democrat.  I just couldn't stand GWB.  I was even more fed up with the Republican party by 2004.  I still considered myself conservative at the time but after watch the debt grow to unbelievable levels and the unhindered spending on wasteful wars I'd had enough.  I fully support Bernie Sanders now. 

TheNick

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2016, 11:58:26 PM »
I used to think that was my position until I thought that one through a bit more. For me, 'socially liberal' includes a very strong 'social safety net', and you don't get that without spending, which I'm all for.

I always just took it as one who leans left on a lot of social issues, like they're alright with gay marriage and pro choice, but leans to the right on fiscal policy, limited government, low taxes, and a balanced budget.

aspiringnomad

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2016, 12:00:17 AM »
I lean more conservative in relation to local politics, if only in a futile attempt to push against my city's soft on crime city council. But in relation to national politics, I vote against the anti-science batshit nutters that seem to make up most of the national Republican Party these days. Obama's positions on pretty much every issue, foreign and domestic, including those that make other liberals squirm like free trade and anti-terror surveillance programs, seem to align perfectly with my own. Wish he could stick around for another term or two...

Sean Og

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2016, 01:21:10 AM »
Growing up in the UK - but in the US for the last 27 years - I do not think there are many liberal politicians in this country. The US is generally quite conservative, especially on social matters. I would still put Sanders left of center, Clinton as a centrist, and the republican candidates as right of center.

As someone from Ireland, I agree with this (regardless of my allegiance to Arsenal :-P ) I consider myself pretty liberal in america, although I'm decidedly centre, perhaps even a little to the right in Ireland.

I have to admit I associate with a lot of the Sanders rhetoric so far, primarily the need to reverse the ever growing gap between rich and poor. Another mentioned already here is free education, I could not have afforded to study engineering if I had lived here in the US and am grateful for the opportunity I had in Ireland. It can and does work and offers those from the lower end of the income classes the opportunity to achieve.

Coming from Ireland, our two largest parties both have an ideology I'd consider liberal conservatism (the parties are virtually undifferentiated and the two exist simply from civil war disagreement over a united Ireland)

Personally I feel the US needs someone who is of that liberal conservative mold (Obama? :-) ), I don't think Sanders is that guy (slightly further left) but a lot of what he is saying fits.

Since moving here things that have left me awestruck and I feel need to be addressed in the next 8 years:

  • Wealth Gap - I have never seen poverty like I have in the US for a 1st world country.
  • Minimum Wage - essentially a government subsidy to american corporations, for example if Walmart employees are on public assistance please argue how that isn't true!
  • Medical Costs - The bill is how much? If it fit in our timeline I would have kids in Ireland/UK, unfortunately is does not
  • Tuition Costs & Student Loans - Wow!! Crippling!
  • K-12 Education - Soooo poorly funded. My wife is a teacher, it probably doesn't help that we are in the Tea Party experiment that is Kansas but if I listed her classroom expenses for the year'd I'd likely cry
  • Trade Skills - As an engineer in a manufacturing setting I was astounded at the low level of technical understanding of recent high school graduates in comparison to Ireland/UK and finding qualified staff for semi skilled operator positions. More emphasis needs to be given to trades as a viable option to college
  • Racism - Is this the 60's? I'm white and English speaking, people forget I'm an immigrant.....I have been included in some pretty shocking conversations. Tramp has made it public with his campaign
  • Guns - A whole bunch of crazy. I actually think Sanders gets a bad rap from liberals here but I agree with his stance on guns and rural vs urban areas...two totally different uses. Hand all guns into the sheriff when entering town ala the wild west!! Also nobody needs an assault rifle for hunting!
  • Abortion - personally I am pro-life if it were my child (I am a man btw, wife shares same views), but then I am also for the whole-life which is something Sanders touches on, nor do I feel it right for me to dictate to others where I have no comprehension of what they are going through at that time or the circumstances...so I guess I lean pro-choice on policy!! It does confuse me that most conservatives consider themselves pro-life but have no issue kicking that child to the gutter when born, with a fend for themselves sort of attitude, no social support for their mothers/family.

Going back to liberal conservatism ideology, Ireland is generally pro-enterprise/capitalism with low corporate taxes which I associate with conservatives here in the US (Microsoft, eBay, Apple, Google, Intel, Facebook, Yahoo, Linkedin, AirBnB, Twitter, Paypal all have their EU HQ there and others such as Pfizer, Medtronic and Eaton controversially relocated their head office there for tax purposes with merger deals)

But we also have many social safety nets consistent across Europe and what I see Liberals here pushing towards such as free healthcare, good unemployment, pension and disability support, 26 weeks paid maternity leave and free college/third level education. Benefits are based on what you have already paid into the system which prevents freeloaders, particularly for unemployment benefit, and something I feel is good, I'm all for basic safety nets but those capable and with offers of work should. Ireland may be considered a tax haven for corporations but is the opposite when it comes to personal income tax 20% lower rate and 40% above ~$47k (median income is ~$31k so 40% is aimed at the wealthier end of the scale) VAT or sales tax is also 23%

On the Social freedom policy such as Abortion, same sex marriage and gun ownership etc Ireland has traditionally been pretty conservative until recently given the dominance of the catholic church. However that is changing quickly and certainly leans toward the left now on same sex marriage and is slowly going there on abortion. Gun rights have never been a hot topic like here, farmers/sporting enthusiasts have them but seldom does it even cross the mind for much of the population.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 11:45:16 AM by Sean Og »

Gunny

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2016, 06:44:54 AM »
Depends.  Let me run down a few of my stances on issues and let the reader label me.

I believe in small government by the people for the people.  I support the intent of social programs like welfare and food stamps, but believe all government programs are grossly missed managed and corrupted by administrators and recipients alike.  This has resulted in a huge debt.  I retired from the Marines and have seen first hand how much waste is associated with the department of defense. Defense spending is critical to national and sometimes international security.  Higher education, medical care, and housing are too expensive in the US due to many factors, greed by all parties being the most prevalent.  Government should not be paying for any of these.  The government has ruined public education. No child left behind and Common core Are fails. Ive seen it first hand.  As a substitute teacher I discuss failed government education programs with educators almost every day.  I believe in a strong market based economy with limited Government interference.  However, some regulation to keep our capitalist prossess equatable and some taxation to help fund the government are necessary.  I believe in the right to own and bare arms, but all gun owners should have a background check and licensed, not unlike the process for driving a car or flying an airplane.  All gun transactions should be officially documented.  I believe a person has the right to worship, or not, how he/she chooses.  I'm Christian.  I believe all people should have the right to marry whom ever they please.  I think abortion should be allowed only to protect the health of the mother or terminate an unviable fetus or in cases of sexual assault or deviance when pregnancy results.  All persons should be afforded the equal opportunity to succeed based on merit, not demographics. 

Balance is key. 

Gin1984

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2016, 06:48:51 AM »
This is a kind of amazing thread (I missed the previous one). I'd love to hear more people's perspective on 'socially liberal, fiscally conservative'.

I used to think that was my position until I thought that one through a bit more. For me, 'socially liberal' includes a very strong 'social safety net', and you don't get that without spending, which I'm all for.

So me: flamingly liberal/progressive (at least, for the USA, I'm sure countries with actual liberal/progressive parties would laugh).
I believe that we need to balance the budget and pay down our debt (fiscally conservative) except the only ones to do so have been Dems, in my lifetime. 

Gunny

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2016, 06:55:25 AM »
When I was a farm kid working for minimum wage in high school and college I was strongly conservative.  I wouldn't consider voting for anyone other than Republicans.  Slowly as I got older and maxe more money I started to lean towards the left.  It took decades to make the move.  The 2000 presidential election was my first time to vote for a Democrat.  I just couldn't stand GWB.  I was even more fed up with the Republican party by 2004.  I still considered myself conservative at the time but after watch the debt grow to unbelievable levels and the unhindered spending on wasteful wars I'd had enough.  I fully support Bernie Sanders now.

The dept is twice now what it was in 2009 when the White House shifted from GWB to Obama.  Having said that, not a big GWB fan myself. 

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2016, 07:03:16 AM »
Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Sorry none of the above really captures that so I didn't vote.

+1

TomTX

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2016, 07:33:24 AM »
Found this pretty basic explanation, which although is very generalized, should be fine enough for the basics

Libertarian/Progressive: typically focusing on non-governmental solutions and private decision-making in both the social and economic dimensions. "Libertarian" is the philosophy that summarizes "socially liberal and fiscally conservative". (Progressive/Libertarian being combined as both the same thing just with a right/left tinge

Liberal: typically focusing on helping needy members of society, and using government to achieve societal good; government intervention only in economic matters.

Conservative: typically focusing on fiscal frugality, strength abroad, and moral integrity; government intervention acceptable in social and personal matters.

Populist: typically focusing on local solutions instead of federal action, on decentralizing power, and on religion as the basis for societal good.

Shoot, I'm all convoluted.

I want some government interference: social safety net including health care that doesn't suck (easiest is probably allowing anyone to buy into Medicare), Enforcing equal treatment, limiting the ability of people/corporations from externalizing their pollution/costs, keeping the economy from capsizing. Otherwise offsetting corporate power on behalf of natural people (not corporate "people.")

I want less military. We don't need a military bigger/more expensive than the next dozen nations combined.

I want the government largely out of the details. Until recently, you couldn't legally braid hair for money in Texas without a cosmetology license and barber shop/studio. You still can't buy a car directly from the manufacturer. Dumb shit like this. Simplify all the laws to stuff that actually matters.

I do want citizens to be able to own/operate any variety of firearms they want, unless they have been show to be a threat to society. If they are a genuine threat, take away the guns and/or lock them up.

I want full restitution of rights to released prisoners. If they are still a threat to society, they should still be in prison. Reasonable parole is a trial period, some rights can be restricted. However, prisons should have significant rehabilitation opportunities available.

End the stupid, stupid war on some drugs.

Davids

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2016, 09:44:46 AM »
I am a republican. I used to be a democrat then slowly went to Independent but am now a registered republican and proud of it.

For example I used to be very much pro choice, woman's right to choose but then when my wife was pregnant and the first time I saw the ultrasound and saw my son's heartbeat it made me realize I was pro life, there is a living person inside.

TheNick

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2016, 10:11:00 AM »
Depends.  Let me run down a few of my stances on issues and let the reader label me.

I believe in small government by the people for the people.  I support the intent of social programs like welfare and food stamps, but believe all government programs are grossly missed managed and corrupted by administrators and recipients alike.  This has resulted in a huge debt.  I retired from the Marines and have seen first hand how much waste is associated with the department of defense. Defense spending is critical to national and sometimes international security.  Higher education, medical care, and housing are too expensive in the US due to many factors, greed by all parties being the most prevalent.  Government should not be paying for any of these.  The government has ruined public education. No child left behind and Common core Are fails. Ive seen it first hand.  As a substitute teacher I discuss failed government education programs with educators almost every day.  I believe in a strong market based economy with limited Government interference.  However, some regulation to keep our capitalist prossess equatable and some taxation to help fund the government are necessary.  I believe in the right to own and bare arms, but all gun owners should have a background check and licensed, not unlike the process for driving a car or flying an airplane.  All gun transactions should be officially documented.  I believe a person has the right to worship, or not, how he/she chooses.  I'm Christian.  I believe all people should have the right to marry whom ever they please.  I think abortion should be allowed only to protect the health of the mother or terminate an unviable fetus or in cases of sexual assault or deviance when pregnancy results.  All persons should be afforded the equal opportunity to succeed based on merit, not demographics. 

Balance is key.

Sir, you strike me as a level headed fella with a vast amount of life experience.  I agree with pretty much everything you say...but this is also what confuses me about American politics today.  I'd consider you pretty middle of the road.  For example...social programs.  Basically, you support them but think we can run them better.  People to the extreme right would want to gut them all, people on the extreme left want more...they want to expand what we have and think just throwing more money at it will make it better, and in addition give "free" healthcare for all and "free" college for all...aka...Bernie Sanders fans.  These people also think they are middle of the road, and will clump you in with the extreme right for your views.  Same for abortion as well.  Isn't it your extreme right that would scream no abortion ever, and your extreme left doesn't care if people use abortion as birth control?  Wouldn't abortions under certain circumstances be the middle of the road stance...but somehow the left has moved so far to the left that if you don't agree with near unrestricted abortion, you are a a radical right winger in their eyes...no different than the people who want no abortion ever.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it just strikes me as incredibly odd how many people are far right or far left and think they are centrists.  Pro tip folks...if you are voting for Sanders or Cruz...you are not a centrist.

tipster350

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2016, 10:33:46 AM »
Depends.  Let me run down a few of my stances on issues and let the reader label me.

I believe in small government by the people for the people.  I support the intent of social programs like welfare and food stamps, but believe all government programs are grossly missed managed and corrupted by administrators and recipients alike.  This has resulted in a huge debt.  I retired from the Marines and have seen first hand how much waste is associated with the department of defense. Defense spending is critical to national and sometimes international security.  Higher education, medical care, and housing are too expensive in the US due to many factors, greed by all parties being the most prevalent.  Government should not be paying for any of these.  The government has ruined public education. No child left behind and Common core Are fails. Ive seen it first hand.  As a substitute teacher I discuss failed government education programs with educators almost every day.  I believe in a strong market based economy with limited Government interference.  However, some regulation to keep our capitalist prossess equatable and some taxation to help fund the government are necessary.  I believe in the right to own and bare arms, but all gun owners should have a background check and licensed, not unlike the process for driving a car or flying an airplane.  All gun transactions should be officially documented.  I believe a person has the right to worship, or not, how he/she chooses.  I'm Christian.  I believe all people should have the right to marry whom ever they please.  I think abortion should be allowed only to protect the health of the mother or terminate an unviable fetus or in cases of sexual assault or deviance when pregnancy results.  All persons should be afforded the equal opportunity to succeed based on merit, not demographics. 

Balance is key.

Sir, you strike me as a level headed fella with a vast amount of life experience.  I agree with pretty much everything you say...but this is also what confuses me about American politics today.  I'd consider you pretty middle of the road.  For example...social programs.  Basically, you support them but think we can run them better.  People to the extreme right would want to gut them all, people on the extreme left want more...they want to expand what we have and think just throwing more money at it will make it better, and in addition give "free" healthcare for all and "free" college for all...aka...Bernie Sanders fans.  These people also think they are middle of the road, and will clump you in with the extreme right for your views.  Same for abortion as well.  Isn't it your extreme right that would scream no abortion ever, and your extreme left doesn't care if people use abortion as birth control?  Wouldn't abortions under certain circumstances be the middle of the road stance...but somehow the left has moved so far to the left that if you don't agree with near unrestricted abortion, you are a a radical right winger in their eyes...no different than the people who want no abortion ever.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it just strikes me as incredibly odd how many people are far right or far left and think they are centrists.  Pro tip folks...if you are voting for Sanders or Cruz...you are not a centrist.

The facts don't bear out your opinion on several key points. You are drawing a false dichotomy.

1. By measurable standards, as a country, we have move rightward over the last three decades; and the Democratic party is included in that and has shifted rightward too. As an example of the rightward shift, Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan supported numerous policies that are now considered progressive, squarely on the Left. Their policies and programs would never be accepted today. Hillary Clinton would be considered a Centrist Republican in years past by virtue of the policies she supports.

2. Your characterization of the extreme Left is inaccurate. I don't doubt that there are a few anecdotal outliers, but in what you is now considered the far Left today, there is no call whatsoever for increasing social programs irresponsibly by merely throwing money at them. No one in the public eye thinks money is raining down from the sky to pay for any whim we can think of. Additionally, there is no call on the far Left for supporting the use of abortion as a means of birth control. There is absolutely no evidence for that at all.

Your characterization of the far Right is accurate and there are many documented examples of candidates on the far Right espousing the policies you mentioned.



As far as the gentleman above, I would consider him slightly to the Right of center by today's standards, someone who could probably vote for a Democrat similar to Hillary depending on the choices available and weighing what's most important at the time given the choices.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2016, 10:45:57 AM »
Dirty hippies

Tom Bri

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2016, 10:55:40 AM »
I voted conservative. Fifteen years ago I would have said libertarian, but as I age, I find some of their stances less convincing.
'Liberal' in the American context doesn't attract me at all. Living in Big Blue Illinois, all I can see is machine politics, the libs using government power to enrich themselves at the expense of anyone who hasn't jumped on the gravy train. I get the very strong impression that liberal leaders wouldn't mind seeing someone like me starve.
I am not very happy with the alternatives, though, since the Republican party at the top is little different from the Democrats. They appeal to a different set of voters at election times, so they appear to have different 'values', but in fact, most seem to be in it to enrich their friends at the expense of...someone like me. Different is same.

gaja

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2016, 11:09:38 AM »
Is this a US poll and thread only?

In my world Bernie Sanders would be a bit to the right of center, I think he would feel at home in the Norwegian conservative party, maybe among the old school liberals. Most of the other US politicians are at right wing extremist in my framework. I am definitely a socialist, leaning more towards social democrat than communist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

We also have the axis pro independence/pro union, where I identify at the pro independence. I believe smaller states work better than larger ones, and I'm very happy we have avoided EU membership. Living in a small country, I have the home phone number of several members of the parliament, and I know that my vote counts.

As to free college; it works. My husband and his sister are first generation college educated. My father and two of his sisters the same, while his two older brothers went into the family trade. My father's mother's family was so poor my grandmother was an indentured servant from the age of 7. My maternal grandfather worked his way up from dead broke fisherman (half his crew died from tubercolosis, starvation was also common) to university education through the fisherman's union, and strongly urged his six daughters and to sons to go to university. There is no way they could have afforded to pay tuition for all those kids, now there are 6 or 7 PhDs in the family.

The best thing about free university, is that the competition really is based on merits. You can't get into medical school here unless you are the best in your class. We need a lot of engineers, geologists, mathematicians, etc, so those studies are open for anyone with a basic understanding of the subjects (half of them flunk on the exams, but at least it is a second chance). PhDs are considered a job with a salary of ~$50 000/year for four years. If we see there are a lot of unemployed police, the state will limit the number of classes for a few years.

woopwoop

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2016, 12:05:47 PM »
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it just strikes me as incredibly odd how many people are far right or far left and think they are centrists.  Pro tip folks...if you are voting for Sanders or Cruz...you are not a centrist.
From an American perspective? No. From a global perspective? Absolutely. You can find a bunch of non-US people in this thread who consider Sanders centrist. The world is much more liberal than America, it's skewed if you only consider the perspectives that are immediate to you.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2016, 12:22:16 PM »
I just helped a mentee at my work apply for law school, and she's looking at 88K PER YEAR on top of her undergraduate debt.  It's obscene.

Why in hell's bells would your mentee pay $88k per year for law school????  I went to a top ten and just looked up its current tuition -- $52k to $55k per year.  Plus good schools give tons of merit scholarships.

TheNick

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2016, 12:37:53 PM »
1. By measurable standards, as a country, we have move rightward over the last three decades; and the Democratic party is included in that and has shifted rightward too. As an example of the rightward shift, Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan supported numerous policies that are now considered progressive, squarely on the Left. Their policies and programs would never be accepted today. Hillary Clinton would be considered a Centrist Republican in years past by virtue of the policies she supports.

We have legal abortions, gay marriage, more gun control than ever, religion is far less important to the average American today vs 30 years ago, fiscal policy that is anything but conservative, and after adjusting for inflation a federal government that is spending 3x more per year today than it was 30 years ago.  Looking at the big picture, we haven't moved more to the right...this country has pretty much been moving steadily left for the last 100 years.  When FDR was elected he was the most liberal president to date...by today's standards he's a moderate...that's how far left we have moved.

If you want to dissect any single president they've all done things that were right leaning, and they've all done things that were left leaning.  Part of it is compromise, and part of it is the simple fact that the vast majority of us are not strictly right wing or strictly left wing, we are actually capable of independent thought and forming our own opinions on issues.

2. Your characterization of the extreme Left is inaccurate. I don't doubt that there are a few anecdotal outliers, but in what you is now considered the far Left today, there is no call whatsoever for increasing social programs irresponsibly by merely throwing money at them. No one in the public eye thinks money is raining down from the sky to pay for any whim we can think of. Additionally, there is no call on the far Left for supporting the use of abortion as a means of birth control. There is absolutely no evidence for that at all.

Have you listened to Bernie Sanders talk at all?  He wants to increase spending by 17 trillion over the next decade.  Where is an extra 1.7 trillion a year going to come from when we are already running a 1/2 trillion deficit?  Apparently he thinks money is raining down from the sky.  Where is all that spending going to go.  Social programs lol.  "Free" college, "free" healthcare, FREE FREE FREE!

Also...when you want unrestricted access to abortion...what is that?  Its using abortion as birth control.  If you weren't using abortion as birth control nobody would ever want an abortion unless it was a case of rape, a health risk to the mother, or it was obvious the fetus had problems and would be not be viable to carry to full term or would born with many health issues.

As far as the gentleman above, I would consider him slightly to the Right of center by today's standards, someone who could probably vote for a Democrat similar to Hillary depending on the choices available and weighing what's most important at the time given the choices.

Yup...he's pretty close to the center, I'll agree...which is why someone like Bernie Sanders is way far to the left, and someone like Cruz to the right, just like I've said.  I highly doubt the guys a Hillary fan...he said he believes in small government, better management of our social programs not just more funding, defense spending, gun ownership, wants less federal government in the education system, believe abortion only in the case of rape/health, and believes in equal opportunity, not results, meaning large chunks of affirmative action need to go.  That's uh...not your typical Hillary supporter right there lol.

sunday

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2016, 12:41:13 PM »
Guess I would consider myself a left of center liberal. Liberal on social issues: pro marriage equality, pro-choice, lessen drug restrictions. On economic issues, I believe in the free market principles but want government there to make sure companies are not harming people for profit (i.e, EPA regulations to protect water). But I believe the government should be spending a lot less on things like foreign aid, the military, and many social programs.

I think there should be universal healthcare because it just makes fiscal sense. The government should be able to negotiate with drug companies to keep prices low. I'm anti-death penalty not because I think murderers shouldn't die, but because in practice, innocent people get sent to death, and it also costs the system a lot more money.

I'm also not feeling the BERN. I don't think college should be free because not everyone is cut out for college and making everyone go is inefficient. I think social welfare should be limited, and recipients should have to volunteer or be training for a job program.

Politically, I agree with Obama a lot, and even though the right wing has labeled him as the liberal devil, he is actually pretty centrist. I have never been able to vote Republican because even though I sometimes agree with their fiscal policies, I can't vote for someone who thinks women don't have rights to their own bodies. Probably will be voting for Hilary merely by process of elimination.


TheNick

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2016, 12:53:45 PM »
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it just strikes me as incredibly odd how many people are far right or far left and think they are centrists.  Pro tip folks...if you are voting for Sanders or Cruz...you are not a centrist.
From an American perspective? No. From a global perspective? Absolutely. You can find a bunch of non-US people in this thread who consider Sanders centrist. The world is much more liberal than America, it's skewed if you only consider the perspectives that are immediate to you.

If the whole world were communists, and America was only socialists, would we be considered right wingers at that point just because communism is a little further left than socialism, and from their perspective we are to the right?

mm1970

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2016, 02:34:35 PM »
always interesting to me how liberals outrank conservatives on something like a site like this which promotes conserving and self-responsibility and in a small business like being a real estate agaent. seems conservatives would rule.

Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it?  Save and invest and retire early...but hey...if you get tax payer subsidized healthcare for life when I retire at 40 while people who are older and still working trying to save for their own retirement, people who have a lot lower of a net worth, and even young people starting families or struggling to pay back student loans have to subsidize it...its all good...screw those people!  Who cares if it makes it more expensive for everyone else...I GOT MINE!

It just seems so wrong how modern liberals are really pushing a "We are all in this together" mind set, and the MMM liberals want to talk to the talk but when it comes time to walk the walk they can't wait to retire, pay as little taxes as possible, and benefit from subsidies as much as possible.  We aren't all in this together when capable people plan on riding on other people's backs...we are all in this together when capable people are picking up the slack for the less capable.

Is that really true though?

I identify as "liberal", but I also have libertarian tendencies.  And I fall into the socially liberal and somewhat fiscally conservative camp.

Socially liberal, as in pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro-gay serving openly in the military (I joined the Navy back at the early "don't ask/ don't tell" days, and thought it was stupid).

I am personally very fiscally conservative.  I believe in national health care, and the idea that "we are all in this together". 

I don't mind the idea of working, saving, and retiring early to take advantage of health care subsidies - honestly, partly because most people in that situation probably already paid a lot of tax. And after they retire, are they going to be a drain on society?  I'd say many of them will end up volunteering.  Now, this is not my path.

I also believe in personal responsibility.  I believe in the idea of gun control, but I come from a family of hunters and gun owners, so I absolutely do not believe that guns should be banned completely (and I have no idea how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals).

I think that welfare is necessary.  I do not think people on welfare should be rewarded for having more babies.  I honestly would not object to required birth control.  But I also think we need solutions.  It seems popular in this country to piss all over the poor.

So I guess I don't see the majority of folks on here in that category.

Sean Og

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2016, 02:35:13 PM »
I don't think college should be free because not everyone is cut out for college and making everyone go is inefficient.

College is free in Ireland yet many decide not to avail of it, nobody is forcing you to go just because its free. The last thing many of those not cut out for college want to do is spend another 4 years in school, they would rather complete a trade apprenticeship for which there is an excellent system and collaboration between industry and 2 year colleges in Ireland, something the US could develop better I feel.

What free tuition does is offer those with the required academic aptitude access to college regardless of what economic position your family is from without have to go deeply into debt or study part time forever. Only those with sufficient academic aptitude will go on to complete medical school, law school, engineering etc.

Agree with you on most everything else in your post and I personally would be happy with another 8 years of Obama.....I can never understand the bad rep he gets although I do live in the midwest so its to be expected I guess.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 02:39:23 PM by Sean Og »

Tyson

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2016, 02:38:45 PM »
I used to be a conservative, but that was back when the Repubs didn't talk much about social issues, only fiscal issues.  Now that the current batch of Tea-heads are on a jihad to "take back the country" I've left the party and won't be going back.  Well, maybe I'll come back if they ever stop acting like a bunch of racist @ssholes.

mm1970

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2016, 02:39:53 PM »
Quote
Isn't it your extreme right that would scream no abortion ever, and your extreme left doesn't care if people use abortion as birth control?  Wouldn't abortions under certain circumstances be the middle of the road stance...but somehow the left has moved so far to the left that if you don't agree with near unrestricted abortion, you are a a radical right winger in their eyes...no different than the people who want no abortion ever.

I would consider a centrist on abortion to be more likely to set a limit on when abortions can occur (as in, not after 20 weeks, or whatever), not set rules to "only in rape, mother's life".

FLA

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2016, 02:46:25 PM »
Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Sorry none of the above really captures that so I didn't vote.

OMG, if I had a $1 for every time a well-off appearing Match date said that, I'd be rolling in money. I'm sure you actually are this way, I'm not insulting you or even talking about you, just pointing out that it has become a heavily used pick up line for the middle aged, lol.

I voted liberal, I'm as left as left can be which made me a lousy Match for the above men!

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2016, 02:51:38 PM »
Why in hell's bells would your mentee pay $88k per year for law school????  I went to a top ten and just looked up its current tuition -- $52k to $55k per year.  Plus good schools give tons of merit scholarships.

Sorry, yes, we did cost of attendance (sine we were playing with what she could afford and long-term debt repayment), not tuition

I ran numbers with her on Harvard.  For the current school year costs are 85K (http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/financial-aid-policy-overview/student-financial-aid-budget/).  She ended up taking a full ride to another top ten, which is awesome. 

sunday

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2016, 03:48:19 PM »
I don't think college should be free because not everyone is cut out for college and making everyone go is inefficient.

College is free in Ireland yet many decide not to avail of it, nobody is forcing you to go just because its free.

What I mean is that it, being free, would cause more people to go than it would otherwise. Also, making it free to everyone is inefficient, because there are people who CAN pay for it and would do so. It would also cause more people to go into fields that are not useful to society, because we are relying on the fancies of an eighteen year old. Four years free to study Babylonian cave art while delaying entering the work force for a few years? Why not?  And while Babylonian cave art may be a fine subject to be studied, I just think you should have some skin in the game instead of having tax payers foot the bill. That said, I do support things like Pell grants and need based scholarships, because that goes directly to the people who need it, instead of a free for all of everyone. It also requires some effort on the applicant's part to get, weeding out some of the students who don't have the initiative to do a simple application.

sunday

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #97 on: January 16, 2016, 03:52:42 PM »
Quote
Isn't it your extreme right that would scream no abortion ever, and your extreme left doesn't care if people use abortion as birth control?  Wouldn't abortions under certain circumstances be the middle of the road stance...but somehow the left has moved so far to the left that if you don't agree with near unrestricted abortion, you are a a radical right winger in their eyes...no different than the people who want no abortion ever.

I would consider a centrist on abortion to be more likely to set a limit on when abortions can occur (as in, not after 20 weeks, or whatever), not set rules to "only in rape, mother's life".

I actually find those who argue for abortions "only in rape/assault" the most illogical. Either you think a fetus is a person with rights or not. If you do, what does being conceived in rape have to do with a fetus's individual rights. When I hear that someone supports the "only rape" exception to abortion, I think they just want to punish women for having sex, not because they think a fetus actually has rights.

TheNick

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #98 on: January 16, 2016, 04:45:48 PM »
always interesting to me how liberals outrank conservatives on something like a site like this which promotes conserving and self-responsibility and in a small business like being a real estate agaent. seems conservatives would rule.

Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it?  Save and invest and retire early...but hey...if you get tax payer subsidized healthcare for life when I retire at 40 while people who are older and still working trying to save for their own retirement, people who have a lot lower of a net worth, and even young people starting families or struggling to pay back student loans have to subsidize it...its all good...screw those people!  Who cares if it makes it more expensive for everyone else...I GOT MINE!

It just seems so wrong how modern liberals are really pushing a "We are all in this together" mind set, and the MMM liberals want to talk to the talk but when it comes time to walk the walk they can't wait to retire, pay as little taxes as possible, and benefit from subsidies as much as possible.  We aren't all in this together when capable people plan on riding on other people's backs...we are all in this together when capable people are picking up the slack for the less capable.

Is that really true though?

I identify as "liberal", but I also have libertarian tendencies.  And I fall into the socially liberal and somewhat fiscally conservative camp.

Socially liberal, as in pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro-gay serving openly in the military (I joined the Navy back at the early "don't ask/ don't tell" days, and thought it was stupid).

I am personally very fiscally conservative.  I believe in national health care, and the idea that "we are all in this together". 

I don't mind the idea of working, saving, and retiring early to take advantage of health care subsidies - honestly, partly because most people in that situation probably already paid a lot of tax. And after they retire, are they going to be a drain on society?  I'd say many of them will end up volunteering.  Now, this is not my path.

I also believe in personal responsibility.  I believe in the idea of gun control, but I come from a family of hunters and gun owners, so I absolutely do not believe that guns should be banned completely (and I have no idea how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals).

I think that welfare is necessary.  I do not think people on welfare should be rewarded for having more babies.  I honestly would not object to required birth control.  But I also think we need solutions.  It seems popular in this country to piss all over the poor.

So I guess I don't see the majority of folks on here in that category.

Nah, I'd actually agree with you on most points...but the one thing I disagree with is the idea that I can amass enough to retire early and then receive tax payer subsidies while retired early.  If you can retire at 40 and be self sufficient, that's awesome, you won at life.  If you can "retire" at 40 only because you qualify for fat Obamacare subsidies thanks to roth laddering, that is not so awesome.

I sincerely hope that if the ACA is the future for our healthcare system, they add some sort of means testing so subsidies are actually going to the poor and not to people who roll fat retirement account balances into a roth and retire super early even though they have the means to pay their share for healthcare.

TheNick

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #99 on: January 16, 2016, 05:20:41 PM »
I actually find those who argue for abortions "only in rape/assault" the most illogical. Either you think a fetus is a person with rights or not. If you do, what does being conceived in rape have to do with a fetus's individual rights. When I hear that someone supports the "only rape" exception to abortion, I think they just want to punish women for having sex, not because they think a fetus actually has rights.

Its no more illogical than saying a fetus is alive at 20 weeks, but at 19 weeks and 6 days abort away!

Its no more illogical than this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

Why does federal law recognize a child in utero as a legal victim if they are hurt or killed...unless the mother wants to abort them, then its ok?  Apparently pregnant women are the only ones with the right to kill other than as an act of self defense or war.

Most the people I know who support limited abortion do so not to punish women for having sex, pill/implant + condom leaves you with what, a 0.000000001% chance of pregnancy, its because they think abortion is disgusting and wrong but recognize there can be extenuating circumstances.  Whoops I got a little crazy last weekend and was irresponsible is quite a different situation than I was violently raped against my will.  Having an unviable fetus that will not make it full term anyhow, or a situation where there are complications and the mother will probably die before getting to full term due to the pregnancy anyhow is a different situation than a healthy fetus and a healthy mother.

Or what about a situation where an accidental pregnancy occurs.  Why is it if the mother wants the child and the father doesn't, the father is still on the hook for 18 years of child support.  If you reverse the roles, and the mother doesn't want the child and the father does, why is it the mother can get an abortion and the father can do nothing to see his child given a chance at life?  That's pretty illogical as well, isn't it?