Author Topic: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2  (Read 38172 times)

MoonShadow

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #100 on: November 02, 2015, 05:24:24 PM »
But wait... How can this agency, which profits so clearly from selling the climate-change hoax, have screwed up and admitted something like this?  I don't get it...

</sarcasm>

Because no government agency is a hive mind, with all employees operating under the same illusions, motivations or biases.  So, occasionally, they will manage to hire an actual scientist.

</reason>

Are the "actual scientists" just the ones you agree with?

No, just the ones that present their findings as they are, and don't try to bend the data to fit an ideological or political agenda.  The differences are typically easy to highlight.  BTW, I actually considered posting an article referencing the same study, (I don't know if it's the same article, didn't check) but decided against it because so many here are just unwilling to consider the possibility that they may have been (told) wrong, whether it was a willful bias or simply error.

Glenstache

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #101 on: November 02, 2015, 05:45:16 PM »
But wait... How can this agency, which profits so clearly from selling the climate-change hoax, have screwed up and admitted something like this?  I don't get it...

</sarcasm>

Because no government agency is a hive mind, with all employees operating under the same illusions, motivations or biases.  So, occasionally, they will manage to hire an actual scientist.

</reason>

On a more serious note and earlier snark aside, it is worth noting that government agencies tend to have pretty strict internal review independent of and in addition to the external peer review process. So, if there is in fact a structural bias, then studies would have to run that gauntlet as well before release. So, if these supposedly unbiased studies are getting out of those agencies, it is an argument against the structural bias so often cited in this thread.

On the whole, we are still better off discussing the actual data and studies, which overwhelmingly show a human influence on climate that will play out differently depending on where on the planet you are. In some places glaciers will actually grow due to increase in precipitation and local climate effects. In most areas they will not. Some places will experience more drought while others are submerged and flooded. Our best bet is to try and understand those impacts by throwing smart people at the problem, and adapt as best we can on multiple fronts.

</reason>

Kris

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2015, 06:49:10 PM »
http://phys.org/news/2015-10-mass-gains-antarctic-ice-sheet.html

Apparently,NASA (you know, that big governmental agency that is obviously part of the liberal conspiracy to lie about the "hoax" that is human-caused climate destabilization) has found that the mass gains in the Arctic ice sheet are currently larger than the losses.

But wait... How can this agency, which profits so clearly from selling the climate-change hoax, have screwed up and admitted something like this?  I don't get it...

</sarcasm>

* Antarctic ice sheet. The arctic sea ice extent is quite a different story. http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2015/10/2015-melt-season-in-review/

Sorry to nitpick.

Not at all.  Unlike some people, I like my science reports to be fact based, and my assertions, too.  Thanks for the correction. 

Kris

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2015, 06:55:17 PM »
But wait... How can this agency, which profits so clearly from selling the climate-change hoax, have screwed up and admitted something like this?  I don't get it...

</sarcasm>

Because no government agency is a hive mind, with all employees operating under the same illusions, motivations or biases.  So, occasionally, they will manage to hire an actual scientist.

</reason>

Are the "actual scientists" just the ones you agree with?

No, just the ones that present their findings as they are, and don't try to bend the data to fit an ideological or political agenda.  The differences are typically easy to highlight.  BTW, I actually considered posting an article referencing the same study, (I don't know if it's the same article, didn't check) but decided against it because so many here are just unwilling to consider the possibility that they may have been (told) wrong, whether it was a willful bias or simply error.

My favorite part of this "reasoning" is that your reading of this report is a) "no government agency is a hive mind" (though previously you've said the only way to get funding is by creating a hive mind atmosphere) and therefore one report like this is an anomaly that somehow managed to sneak out (I'm sure the conductors of this study have been summarily fired); and b) apparently this one report is evidence that the vast majority of climate scientists are wrong, and those here who believe in climate destabilization are just "unwilling to consider the possibility that they may have been [told] wrong" -- even though it is one of those clueless people who posted this article.

You're dancing pretty fast here. It's sort of hilarious.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:32:46 PM by Kris »

MoonShadow

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2015, 10:07:44 PM »
But wait... How can this agency, which profits so clearly from selling the climate-change hoax, have screwed up and admitted something like this?  I don't get it...

</sarcasm>

Because no government agency is a hive mind, with all employees operating under the same illusions, motivations or biases.  So, occasionally, they will manage to hire an actual scientist.

</reason>

Are the "actual scientists" just the ones you agree with?

No, just the ones that present their findings as they are, and don't try to bend the data to fit an ideological or political agenda.  The differences are typically easy to highlight.  BTW, I actually considered posting an article referencing the same study, (I don't know if it's the same article, didn't check) but decided against it because so many here are just unwilling to consider the possibility that they may have been (told) wrong, whether it was a willful bias or simply error.

My favorite part of this "reasoning" is that your reading of this report is a) "no government agency is a hive mind" (though previously you've said the only way to get funding is by creating a hive mind atmosphere) and therefore one report like this is an anomaly that somehow managed to sneak out (I'm sure the conductors of this study have been summarily fired); and b) apparently this one report is evidence that the vast majority of climate scientists are wrong, and those here who believe in climate destabilization are just "unwilling to consider the possibility that they may have been [told] wrong" -- even though it is one of those clueless people who posted this article.

You're dancing pretty fast here. It's sort of hilarious.

You remember things how you like to remember things, Kris.  I actually believe that global warming is happening, I'm just the one that can admit that it's only a belief.

As for the government funding of research, that was always a generality.  I have no doubt that there are a few counter-examples that you could find, if you looked hard enough.  But I do think that it would require you to look pretty hard.

the_gastropod

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #105 on: November 03, 2015, 05:57:11 AM »
This is getting pretty philosophical, now. Do you just "believe" in gravity? What about that Abraham Lincoln existed? Do atoms exist?

Kris

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #106 on: November 03, 2015, 06:27:21 AM »
But wait... How can this agency, which profits so clearly from selling the climate-change hoax, have screwed up and admitted something like this?  I don't get it...

</sarcasm>

Because no government agency is a hive mind, with all employees operating under the same illusions, motivations or biases.  So, occasionally, they will manage to hire an actual scientist.

</reason>

Are the "actual scientists" just the ones you agree with?

No, just the ones that present their findings as they are, and don't try to bend the data to fit an ideological or political agenda.  The differences are typically easy to highlight.  BTW, I actually considered posting an article referencing the same study, (I don't know if it's the same article, didn't check) but decided against it because so many here are just unwilling to consider the possibility that they may have been (told) wrong, whether it was a willful bias or simply error.

My favorite part of this "reasoning" is that your reading of this report is a) "no government agency is a hive mind" (though previously you've said the only way to get funding is by creating a hive mind atmosphere) and therefore one report like this is an anomaly that somehow managed to sneak out (I'm sure the conductors of this study have been summarily fired); and b) apparently this one report is evidence that the vast majority of climate scientists are wrong, and those here who believe in climate destabilization are just "unwilling to consider the possibility that they may have been [told] wrong" -- even though it is one of those clueless people who posted this article.

You're dancing pretty fast here. It's sort of hilarious.

You remember things how you like to remember things, Kris.  I actually believe that global warming is happening, I'm just the one that can admit that it's only a belief.

As for the government funding of research, that was always a generality.  I have no doubt that there are a few counter-examples that you could find, if you looked hard enough.  But I do think that it would require you to look pretty hard.

Going back and reading through your posts on just this thread would reveal a fairly impressive list of contradictions. 

JZinCO

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #107 on: November 03, 2015, 08:39:37 AM »
You remember things how you like to remember things, Kris.  I actually believe that global warming is happening, I'm just the one that can admit that it's only a belief.
Staying general and without getting into metaphysics..
Jesus Christ and Santa Claus are things you believe in. Things which are falsifiable are known, not believed.

This thread has become so entertaining. More!

MoonShadow

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2015, 08:00:52 PM »

Going back and reading through your posts on just this thread would reveal a fairly impressive list of contradictions.

That would just make me human, Kris.  The world is full of contradictions.  It is a sign of maturity when a child begins to look at his world, and understand those contradictions.  The world is not black & white, and there are many other possibilities among the data besides catastrophic climate disruption and status quo.

RangerOne

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2015, 03:48:47 PM »
Someone who acts and makes decisions based on scientific consensus, without expert knowledge, is not exhibiting blind faith or belief. They are simplifying displaying an understanding that the scientific method is the best tool available to humanity to understand the world around us and we all live in a society that is mostly guided by science.

The internet and media have done a wonderful job of making it appear that climate change deniers have a significant voice in the scientific community, but the fact is that surveys of published research on climate change consistently show statistics like 97% of papers agree humans are a significant contributor to climate change.

It is infuriating when we have to listen to educated politicians pander to scientifically ignorant by giving media weight to attacks on good science. There are plenty of healthy policy debates to have on the issue without wasting time denying the scientific reality.


music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2015, 06:18:29 PM »
Someone who acts and makes decisions based on scientific consensus, without expert knowledge, is not exhibiting blind faith or belief. They are simplifying displaying an understanding that the scientific method is the best tool available to humanity to understand the world around us and we all live in a society that is mostly guided by science.

The internet and media have done a wonderful job of making it appear that climate change deniers have a significant voice in the scientific community, but the fact is that surveys of published research on climate change consistently show statistics like 97% of papers agree humans are a significant contributor to climate change.

It is infuriating when we have to listen to educated politicians pander to scientifically ignorant by giving media weight to attacks on good science. There are plenty of healthy policy debates to have on the issue without wasting time denying the scientific reality.

You know what's really infuriating? Those who continue to claim a 97% "consensus" when that doesn't fit the reality. You are calling the wrong side "deniers":

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/03/cooks-97-consensus-disproven-by-a-new-paper-showing-major-math-errors/

"A major peer-reviewed paper by four senior researchers has exposed grave errors in an earlier paper in a new and unknown journal that had claimed a 97.1% scientific consensus that Man had caused at least half the 0.7 Cē global warming since 1950.

The consensus Cook considered was the standard definition: that Man had caused most post-1950 warming. Even on this weaker definition the true consensus among published scientific papers is now demonstrated to be not 97.1%, as Cook had claimed, but only 0.3%.   

Only 41 out of the 11,944 published climate papers Cook examined explicitly stated that Man caused most of the warming since 1950. Cook himself had flagged just 64 papers as explicitly supporting that consensus, but 23 of the 64 had not in fact supported it.

MoonShadow

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2015, 06:48:37 PM »
Someone who acts and makes decisions based on scientific consensus, without expert knowledge, is not exhibiting blind faith or belief. They are simplifying displaying an understanding that the scientific method is the best tool available to humanity to understand the world around us and we all live in a society that is mostly guided by science.

That is not the only thing going on though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QmkHr0W5Vk

Glenstache

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2015, 07:03:14 PM »
Someone who acts and makes decisions based on scientific consensus, without expert knowledge, is not exhibiting blind faith or belief. They are simplifying displaying an understanding that the scientific method is the best tool available to humanity to understand the world around us and we all live in a society that is mostly guided by science.

That is not the only thing going on though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QmkHr0W5Vk

I tried to watch the video, but I realized that he was just spouting a long series of deductive statements-- i.e., if you assume there is bias, you will find places where there are people with bias and you will assume that all people are biased (stockbrokers, etc). This is not useful and, as discussed above, willfully misunderstands the way science is conducted and the way in which incentives work in science. To be fair I skimmed the video because I would have torn my eyes out if I listened to the full 25 minutes.

In short, please provide a credible reference. This video does not qualify.

MoonShadow

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2015, 07:05:03 PM »
To be fair I skimmed the video because I would have torn my eyes out if I listened to the full 25 minutes.

In short, please provide a credible reference. This video does not qualify.

How would you know?

the_gastropod

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #114 on: November 10, 2015, 07:43:10 PM »
Someone who acts and makes decisions based on scientific consensus, without expert knowledge, is not exhibiting blind faith or belief. They are simplifying displaying an understanding that the scientific method is the best tool available to humanity to understand the world around us and we all live in a society that is mostly guided by science.

The internet and media have done a wonderful job of making it appear that climate change deniers have a significant voice in the scientific community, but the fact is that surveys of published research on climate change consistently show statistics like 97% of papers agree humans are a significant contributor to climate change.

It is infuriating when we have to listen to educated politicians pander to scientifically ignorant by giving media weight to attacks on good science. There are plenty of healthy policy debates to have on the issue without wasting time denying the scientific reality.

You know what's really infuriating? Those who continue to claim a 97% "consensus" when that doesn't fit the reality. You are calling the wrong side "deniers":

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/03/cooks-97-consensus-disproven-by-a-new-paper-showing-major-math-errors/

"A major peer-reviewed paper by four senior researchers has exposed grave errors in an earlier paper in a new and unknown journal that had claimed a 97.1% scientific consensus that Man had caused at least half the 0.7 Cē global warming since 1950.

The consensus Cook considered was the standard definition: that Man had caused most post-1950 warming. Even on this weaker definition the true consensus among published scientific papers is now demonstrated to be not 97.1%, as Cook had claimed, but only 0.3%.   

Only 41 out of the 11,944 published climate papers Cook examined explicitly stated that Man caused most of the warming since 1950. Cook himself had flagged just 64 papers as explicitly supporting that consensus, but 23 of the 64 had not in fact supported it.

Wrong. Sources:

Expert Credibility in Climate Change: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2901439/
Examining the Scientific Consensus on Climate Change: http://tigger.uic.edu/~pdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf
Quantifying the consensus on anthropogenic global warming in the scientific literature: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2013ERL.....8b4024C

Quote from: MoonShadow
How would you know?

Because any argument that states: "People are corrupt. Therefore, the things I don't agree with are because of corruption" is not a valid argument. This is the same argument used by foil hatted nimrods everywhere: 9-11 was an inside job! The moon landing was faked! The government hides aliens in Area 51! The Earth is hollow!

The science is settled. You guys can continue to keep your heads buried in the ground if you like.

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #115 on: November 11, 2015, 09:00:34 AM »
The science is settled.

No one truly understands all the factors that affect climate, so how can the science possibly be settled??

Kris

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2015, 09:36:59 AM »
I know it can be tempting to view a "conversation" like this as an actual conversation, and to hold out false hope that it might actually be about facts, or science, or even open dialogue. 

But when one side of the "discussion" is basically just a continual tape loop consisting of alternating "How do you know?" and "No it isn't!", I think it's basically fruitless to even bother. 

Glenstache

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2015, 09:47:40 AM »
The science is settled.

No one truly understands all the factors that affect climate, so how can the science possibly be settled??

This line of thinking would also argue for needing about a 0.01% safe withdrawal rate- because you never really understand every kernel of detail in the economy. In other words, the levels of uncertainty is less than how far we are beyond the level of certainty that should act as a threshold for action. Only in case, the greatest penalty is for doing nothing. If nothing else, it could be considered a Pascal's wager.

golden1

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2015, 11:34:41 AM »
"The Science is settled"

God as a scientist, I hate that attitude.  No it isn't.  In fact science is never "settled".  That is not the way science works.  Every discovery or bit of knowledge leads to more questions which in turn leads to better understanding and on it goes.  It's a continuous process and very often scientists are proven to be wrong (infact, everything by definition is "wrong" because it is an incomplete understanding limited by the knowledge and tools we have currently, even when there is a consensus.  Science is just a process for more accurately understanding the world, and since it is run by humans, it is naturally flawed. 

That doesn't mean you need to ignore it, but a little humility never hurts the cause.  Saying that "science is settled" means that you don't understand what science is and how it works. 

Now personally, I tend to believe the large body of evidence that global manmade climate change is real, and it's a problem (but not a catastrophe), and we are too late to really do much about it besides adapt to it.  The climate will be more unstable, farmable land will shift north towards the poles over the next several hundred years (Buy land in Canada folks).  The people who will suffer the most won't be more developed countries, it will be the poor living in coastal areas.  The time scale to react will be slow enough that we will slog on.  I just think we can do better in terms of energy than burning carbon.  We have lots of other options that have less of an impact on the climate and ecology, plus we won't have to send people to fight wars or perform dangerous jobs in order to dig the stuff out of the ground.  It's time to move on and do better. 

RangerOne

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #119 on: November 11, 2015, 01:28:17 PM »
The science is settled.

No one truly understands all the factors that affect climate, so how can the science possibly be settled??

There has to come a point where there is enough evidence that something is bad that we take action to mitigate the behavior. We understand many of the human factors that effect climate change, and though there may be confounding variables that make accurate predictions difficult, we still have a basic understanding that the behavior is bad and will eventually have a poor outcome.

On the one hand you have science:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/306/5702/1686.full

The you've got other guys responding to orgs like the IPCC like this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/09/26/as-its-global-warming-narrative-unravels-the-ipcc-is-in-damage-control-mode/

You shouldn't just react to the unexplained by saying a whole theory is bullshit. You have to let the scientific community work out and correct its model. Also you have to decide if the underlying mechanism that is driving climate change, like CO2 being a greenhouse gas is still valid. If it is, then we should still work to mitigate greenhouse gas emissions. If it turned out that your model is off and the earth isn't warming as fast as their early models predicted that is great. Then you have potentially more time to adjust our behavior. You let the scientist continue to do more research to gain more understanding of how their model might be flawed and can be improved. And you still work to mitigate risky human behavior which we know today will be harmful at some point in the future. Until the larger body of science comes back and says, we had it all ass backwards and CO2 isn't going to do shit to the climate no matter how much of it we produce or that we are powerless to effect the climate in the face of variables x, y and z. Then there is still valid cause for concern and it should be acted on though maybe not with the same degree of severity. Because the price of being wrong and completely ignoring the behavior is too high.

There is a big difference between a scientist saying, he thinks his colleagues are overreacting and that we will not see a major negative impact from man made climate as quickly as they predict. And a  scientist coming out and saying humans can do what ever they want and no impact on the climate that can harm us now or in the future. The first guy isn't denying climate change, he is simply arguing the accuracy of another guys model.

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2015, 02:34:06 PM »
Saying that "science is settled" means that you don't understand what science is and how it works. 

It's especially telling that the phrase "the science is settled" only comes from the warming side of climate debate. No one on the other side says it is settled. No one in ANY OTHER field of science says the science is settled. That phrase is only said by one group of people, on one side of an issue, in a field where there is far too much uncertainty and far too much complexity to be sure of anything.

Glenstache

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2015, 02:54:10 PM »
It's especially telling that the phrase "the science is settled" only comes from the warming side of climate debate. No one on the other side says it is settled.

This is circular logic.

I think that the majority say that the science is clear on the human impacts. No credible scientists are saying that the science is settled in the way you are taking it to be meant. Arguing over the word "settled" is a pointless semantic argument.

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2015, 03:18:25 PM »
It's especially telling that the phrase "the science is settled" only comes from the warming side of climate debate. No one on the other side says it is settled.

This is circular logic.

I think that the majority say that the science is clear on the human impacts. No credible scientists are saying that the science is settled in the way you are taking it to be meant. Arguing over the word "settled" is a pointless semantic argument.

I don't have to argue my point. The fact is that no one knows for sure what the future impacts will be, or if there will even be any impacts. Therefore, the science is not settled.

That's not a matter of opinion up for debate, that's a fact.

Glenstache

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #123 on: November 11, 2015, 03:27:26 PM »
It's especially telling that the phrase "the science is settled" only comes from the warming side of climate debate. No one on the other side says it is settled.

This is circular logic.

I think that the majority say that the science is clear on the human impacts. No credible scientists are saying that the science is settled in the way you are taking it to be meant. Arguing over the word "settled" is a pointless semantic argument.

I don't have to argue my point. The fact is that no one knows for sure what the future impacts will be, or if there will even be any impacts. Therefore, the science is not settled.

That's not a matter of opinion up for debate, that's a fact.

Yep. There is uncertainty. Yes, there will remain room for refinement of understanding. No problem or disagreement there. However, the range of uncertainty in our understanding is clearly on the side of human influence, and that the likely consequences of increased carbon loading are very detrimental.

Jack

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #124 on: November 11, 2015, 03:36:02 PM »
It's especially telling that the phrase "the science is settled" only comes from the warming side of climate debate. No one on the other side says it is settled.

This is circular logic.

I think that the majority say that the science is clear on the human impacts. No credible scientists are saying that the science is settled in the way you are taking it to be meant. Arguing over the word "settled" is a pointless semantic argument.

I don't have to argue my point. The fact is that no one knows for sure what the future impacts will be, or if there will even be any impacts. Therefore, the science is not settled.

That's not a matter of opinion up for debate, that's a fact.

Nobody knows what the future will be. Therefore, the science that the sun will rise tomorrow is not settled. Fact.

/facepalm

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #125 on: November 11, 2015, 03:48:14 PM »
It's especially telling that the phrase "the science is settled" only comes from the warming side of climate debate. No one on the other side says it is settled.

This is circular logic.

I think that the majority say that the science is clear on the human impacts. No credible scientists are saying that the science is settled in the way you are taking it to be meant. Arguing over the word "settled" is a pointless semantic argument.

I don't have to argue my point. The fact is that no one knows for sure what the future impacts will be, or if there will even be any impacts. Therefore, the science is not settled.

That's not a matter of opinion up for debate, that's a fact.

Nobody knows what the future will be. Therefore, the science that the sun will rise tomorrow is not settled. Fact.

/facepalm

Are you suggesting that the future predictability of climate can be predicted with the same accuracy as predicting if the sun will rise tomorrow??

It's impossible to respond to something so ridiculous without questioning your intelligence.

Jack

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #126 on: November 11, 2015, 05:00:19 PM »
It's impossible to respond to something so ridiculous without questioning your intelligence.

Yeah, you're probably right. Your comment was too ridiculous.

Glenstache

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2015, 06:03:42 PM »
This may make the conversation more fun:


See also: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

MoonShadow

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #128 on: November 11, 2015, 06:25:14 PM »
Yeah, this is a topic that cannot be discussed in a civil fashion on this forum.  It won't be much longer till this thread is locked by a mod.

the_gastropod

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2015, 07:10:59 PM »
"The Science is settled"

God as a scientist, I hate that attitude.  No it isn't.  In fact science is never "settled".

C'mon. It's settled enough to make a policy decision. We have over 95% confidence that humans are the primary cause of climate change.[1][2][3]

Quote from: music_lover
Are you suggesting that the future predictability of climate can be predicted with the same accuracy as predicting if the sun will rise tomorrow??

It's impossible to respond to something so ridiculous without questioning your intelligence.

What confidence coefficient would you like to see before you think it would be reasonable to act?

[1] http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/AR5_SYR_FINAL_SPM.pdf
[2] http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/SYR_AR5_SPMcorr2.pdf
[3] http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12782


seattlecyclone

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2015, 07:45:35 PM »
Yeah, this is a topic that cannot be discussed in a civil fashion on this forum.  It won't be much longer till this thread is locked by a mod.

Indeed. There are only so many times that people can try to rebut unsubstantiated logical fallacies with facts before someone loses their cool.

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #131 on: November 12, 2015, 10:12:33 AM »
"The Science is settled"

God as a scientist, I hate that attitude.  No it isn't.  In fact science is never "settled".

C'mon. It's settled enough to make a policy decision. We have over 95% confidence that humans are the primary cause of climate change.[1][2][3]

Quote from: music_lover
Are you suggesting that the future predictability of climate can be predicted with the same accuracy as predicting if the sun will rise tomorrow??

It's impossible to respond to something so ridiculous without questioning your intelligence.

What confidence coefficient would you like to see before you think it would be reasonable to act?

[1] http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/AR5_SYR_FINAL_SPM.pdf
[2] http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/SYR_AR5_SPMcorr2.pdf
[3] http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12782

Every climate model used by the IPCC has been wrong, so when they issue 95% confidence ratings year after year, that can't be taken seriously.

Failed computer models that don't work may be enough proof for you, but it's not enough for me and many others.

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2015, 10:17:37 AM »
It's impossible to respond to something so ridiculous without questioning your intelligence.

Yeah, you're probably right. Your comment was too ridiculous.

Really? Are you suggesting that the future climate can be predicted as accurately as sun rises? Because that is what the other person did. Does reality ever enter your thought process?

the_gastropod

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2015, 10:19:51 AM »
"The Science is settled"

God as a scientist, I hate that attitude.  No it isn't.  In fact science is never "settled".

C'mon. It's settled enough to make a policy decision. We have over 95% confidence that humans are the primary cause of climate change.[1][2][3]

Quote from: music_lover
Are you suggesting that the future predictability of climate can be predicted with the same accuracy as predicting if the sun will rise tomorrow??

It's impossible to respond to something so ridiculous without questioning your intelligence.

What confidence coefficient would you like to see before you think it would be reasonable to act?

[1] http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/AR5_SYR_FINAL_SPM.pdf
[2] http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/SYR_AR5_SPMcorr2.pdf
[3] http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12782

Every climate model used by the IPCC has been wrong, so when they issue 95% confidence ratings year after year, that can't be taken seriously.

Failed computer models that don't work may be enough proof for you, but it's not enough for me and many others.

Source? Please don't post another silly conspiracy theory blog. Preferably provide something on wikipedia, or something with a .gov or .edu TLD.

Jack

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2015, 11:05:33 AM »
Are you suggesting that the future climate can be predicted as accurately as sun rises? Because that is what the other person did.

Are you just pretending to be dumb, or are you actually that dumb? If it's the latter, let me know and I'll try to be more direct in the future, since argument by analogy is apparently way over your head.

For now, though, I'll assume you were just being obtuse on purpose and move on to another analogy:

Every climate model used by the IPCC has been wrong, so when they issue 95% confidence ratings year after year, that can't be taken seriously.

Failed computer models that don't work may be enough proof for you, but it's not enough for me and many others.

Argument by analogy: "Every financial model of the stock market has been wrong, so clearly this whole "investing" thing is bunk and we should just throw up our hands in despair and hoard cash in our mattresses instead."

(Now I'll hedge my bets by explaining the analogy as I might to a small child.)

First of all, know that I'm not actually advocating that we should hoard cash in our mattresses. Instead, I'm making a statement that's obviously an absurdly flawed argument: we should not actually hoard cash in our mattresses just because our financial models are only "pretty good" instead of "perfect." Instead, we should recognize that the very concept of a "model" is, at its heart, a simplification of reality, and thus will never be exact. We should still invest, and trust that our investing will produce a result relatively similar to the one the model predicts, even though there will inevitably be some variation.

Similarly, by analogy, we can see that hording cash in a mattress due to an erroneous distrust of a (necessarily inexact) financial model is a lot like refusing to compensate for climate change by changing behavior due to an erroneous distrust of a (necessarily inexact) climate model.

Now, music lover, did you manage to understand that? Or should I use smaller words?

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #135 on: November 12, 2015, 02:58:44 PM »
Jack...not only have the models proven to be highly inaccurate, there is also no proof that even if it does warm up that weather will become more unstable. In fact, the US has just passed the 10 year mark, which is the longest in its recorded history, without a level 3 or higher hurricane. Tornadoes are also down. Therefore, one can argue that warmer is better.

Not only that, the increased CO2 is helping to green the planet:

"In findings based on satellite observations, CSIRO, in collaboration with the Australian National University (ANU), found that this CO2 fertilisation correlated with an 11 per cent increase in foliage cover from 1982-2010 across parts of the arid areas studied in Australia, North America, the Middle East and Africa, according to CSIRO research scientist, Dr Randall Donohue."

http://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-releases/2013/Deserts-greening-from-rising-CO2

To summarize: Bad weather is down and the planet is getting greener. Why is this bad, and why are billions being spent to try to stop it?

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #136 on: November 12, 2015, 03:16:55 PM »
Jack...not only have the models proven to be highly inaccurate, there is also no proof that even if it does warm up that weather will become more unstable. In fact, the US has just passed the 10 year mark, which is the longest in its recorded history, without a level 3 or higher hurricane.

This seems dubious. NOAA data shows a total of 31 "major" (category 3+) hurricanes in the Atlantic basin over the past decade. This is 29% higher than the 50-year average of 2.4 per year. Whether or not these landed in the US is immaterial unless you honestly don't care about the world outside our borders.

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2015, 03:40:19 PM »
Jack...not only have the models proven to be highly inaccurate, there is also no proof that even if it does warm up that weather will become more unstable. In fact, the US has just passed the 10 year mark, which is the longest in its recorded history, without a level 3 or higher hurricane.

This seems dubious. NOAA data shows a total of 31 "major" (category 3+) hurricanes in the Atlantic basin over the past decade. This is 29% higher than the 50-year average of 2.4 per year. Whether or not these landed in the US is immaterial unless you honestly don't care about the world outside our borders.

NOAA also states that the increase is likely due to increased technology:

"Landsea et al. (2010) documented a rather large increase in short-lived tropical storms and hurricanes in the last decade, which is likely due to improved monitoring capabilities"

Jack

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2015, 04:05:33 PM »
To summarize: Bad weather is down and the planet is getting greener. Why is this bad, and why are billions being spent to try to stop it?

Because you have to take into consideration all effects, not just cherry-pick the good ones. The net overall effect is bad.

(I know this because if it weren't bad, the scientific consensus would be that warming was happening, but it wasn't a problem. Maybe they'd even recommend accelerating the rate of fossil fuel burn! Contrary to your feverish, paranoid hallucinations, scientists are not some sort of evil secret cabal who want to destroy the world economy 'for teh lulz;' they just report what they discover to the best of their ability.)

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2015, 04:13:47 PM »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #140 on: November 12, 2015, 04:27:56 PM »
Jack...not only have the models proven to be highly inaccurate, there is also no proof that even if it does warm up that weather will become more unstable. In fact, the US has just passed the 10 year mark, which is the longest in its recorded history, without a level 3 or higher hurricane.

This seems dubious. NOAA data shows a total of 31 "major" (category 3+) hurricanes in the Atlantic basin over the past decade. This is 29% higher than the 50-year average of 2.4 per year. Whether or not these landed in the US is immaterial unless you honestly don't care about the world outside our borders.

NOAA also states that the increase is likely due to increased technology:

"Landsea et al. (2010) documented a rather large increase in short-lived tropical storms and hurricanes in the last decade, which is likely due to improved monitoring capabilities"

So in one post you say there were literally no major tropical storms in the past decade, and then in the next you admit that these are actually happening and in greater numbers than before, but it's okay because we probably just missed a few before? Are you getting whiplash yet?

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #141 on: November 12, 2015, 04:44:40 PM »
Jack...not only have the models proven to be highly inaccurate, there is also no proof that even if it does warm up that weather will become more unstable. In fact, the US has just passed the 10 year mark, which is the longest in its recorded history, without a level 3 or higher hurricane.

This seems dubious. NOAA data shows a total of 31 "major" (category 3+) hurricanes in the Atlantic basin over the past decade. This is 29% higher than the 50-year average of 2.4 per year. Whether or not these landed in the US is immaterial unless you honestly don't care about the world outside our borders.

NOAA also states that the increase is likely due to increased technology:

"Landsea et al. (2010) documented a rather large increase in short-lived tropical storms and hurricanes in the last decade, which is likely due to improved monitoring capabilities"

So in one post you say there were literally no major tropical storms in the past decade, and then in the next you admit that these are actually happening and in greater numbers than before, but it's okay because we probably just missed a few before? Are you getting whiplash yet?

No. I did not say that. Work on your comprehension skills.

I said that the US has gone the longest time period in recorded history without a major hurricane making landfall and that tornadoes are also down. In a later post I quoted NOAA's statement that the increase in tropical storms is likely due to increased monitoring technology.

Tropical storms are not hurricanes.

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #142 on: November 12, 2015, 04:56:27 PM »
To summarize: Bad weather is down and the planet is getting greener. Why is this bad, and why are billions being spent to try to stop it?

Because you have to take into consideration all effects, not just cherry-pick the good ones. The net overall effect is bad.

If bad weather is down and the planet is getting greener, what are the "bad" things that outweigh that?

By the way, it's not cherry picking to point out information that is deliberately ignored, but it is cherry picking when all the good effects of increased CO2 are completely ignored by the warming side.

The IPCC general reports are composed of three parts: climate science (part I), negative impacts (part II), measures to be employed to curb said impacts (part III).

What's missing? Any and all "positive impacts" are ignored. Cherry picking at a massive level.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 05:03:21 PM by music lover »

Jack

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #143 on: November 12, 2015, 05:19:26 PM »
If bad weather is down and the planet is getting greener, what are the "bad" things that outweigh that?

For one thing, having to rebuild entire major population centers when they get wiped out by sea level rise. (Katrina hitting New Orleans was only a taste. We're talking about places like Shanghai (22.4 million people displaced), Kolkata, India (12 million people displaced), Jakarta (9.5 million people displaced), Bangladesh (18 million people and 17% of the land of the entire country), etc. being permanently* under water. Do you have any clue at all how many trillions (or maybe quadrillions) of dollars it will take to rebuild the infrastructure to house that many people?! And I haven't even started talking about really wealthy cities (which would cost much more per capita) like London and New York yet...!

(And that's not useful economic activity, by the way; to claim so would be literally the most extreme instance of the broken window fallacy in the history of the Earth.)

(* in human timescales, at least; i.e., until the climate cooled again)

MoonShadow

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2015, 06:14:07 PM »
If bad weather is down and the planet is getting greener, what are the "bad" things that outweigh that?

For one thing, having to rebuild entire major population centers when they get wiped out by sea level rise. (Katrina hitting New Orleans was only a taste. We're talking about places like Shanghai (22.4 million people displaced), Kolkata, India (12 million people displaced), Jakarta (9.5 million people displaced), Bangladesh (18 million people and 17% of the land of the entire country), etc. being permanently* under water. Do you have any clue at all how many trillions (or maybe quadrillions) of dollars it will take to rebuild the infrastructure to house that many people?! And I haven't even started talking about really wealthy cities (which would cost much more per capita) like London and New York yet...!


This is a red herring argument, because if the sea's rise as predicted by the climate models, it will take at least a century.  Slow moving & predictable problems are not difficult to manage, and municipal infrastructure must be rebuilt or otherwise replaced on a shorter time frame than a century anyway.  In three generations time, the coastal populations of Jakarta & Bangladesh can walk to Southern Siberia to take advantage of the mass area of undeveloped landspace that would have become viable farmland as a direct result of climate change, using predictions from those same climate models.  The net effect of a 3 or 4 degree C increase in global temps, for humanity, is actually unknown.

Furthermore, a lot of the economy of Bangladesh is dependent upon their currently existing tidal shallows, which would only become more vast with a rising sea.

And finally, a recent study published from NASA implies that the Antartic ice cap has actually been increasing in net volume over the past 20 or 30 years, with a calculated effect of about a quarter of a cm drop in the world's sea levels.

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #145 on: November 13, 2015, 08:08:47 AM »
For one thing, having to rebuild entire major population centers when they get wiped out by sea level rise. (Katrina hitting New Orleans was only a taste.

New Orleans did not flood because of sea level rise. The poor maintenance of infrastructure and levees over many years was well known long before Katrina hit. You can't blame warming for the failure of government to maintain the levees.

Jack

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #146 on: November 13, 2015, 09:43:57 AM »
This is a red herring argument, because if the sea's rise as predicted by the climate models, it will take at least a century.  Slow moving & predictable problems are not difficult to manage, and municipal infrastructure must be rebuilt or otherwise replaced on a shorter time frame than a century anyway.  In three generations time, the coastal populations of Jakarta & Bangladesh can walk to Southern Siberia to take advantage of the mass area of undeveloped landspace that would have become viable farmland as a direct result of climate change, using predictions from those same climate models.  The net effect of a 3 or 4 degree C increase in global temps, for humanity, is actually unknown.

So global warming is predictable now, which means (a) you admit that it exists, and (b) you agree that humanity needs to do something about it? Then we agree, so WTF are we arguing about? Make sure you inform the denialists, because if we want a hundred-million South Asians to walk to Siberia, they'd better get moving now. (And we'd better get started trying to convince Putin to accept them!)

Besides that, you're wrong on multiple counts:
  • Yes, infrastructure needs maintenance, but not all of it (or even most of it!) gets replaced over that period of time. The Empire State Building, for example, is almost 85 years old, and nobody's planning to tear it down and rebuild anytime soon. They're not about to fill in the London Underground and start over, either. Major civil engineering projects (other than roads and cheap bridges, maybe) are generally built to last, and only get replaced when they become functionally obsolete or get destroyed in a disaster.
  • Second, speaking of disasters: contrary to music lover's yet-another-erroneous-comment above (about the government failing to maintain the levees in New Orleans -- no, music lover, the government failed to design the levees for a storm that big), global warming doesn't only cause coastal inundation at a slow, constant rate. What actually happens is that the higher "resting" sea level and the additional energy in the system makes storms increasingly likely to cause major acute floods long before the "resting" sea level actually gets high enough to cause chronic flooding by itself.
  • Third, I was flippant about it at the top of this post, but it's a serious (and potentially intractable) problem: if half of Bangladesh really did try to migrate to Siberia, it would cause World War III. That alone makes your whole proposal a non-solution.

Furthermore, a lot of the economy of Bangladesh is dependent upon their currently existing tidal shallows, which would only become more vast with a rising sea.

[Citation needed] (for both claims, but especially the latter)

And finally, a recent study published from NASA implies that the Antartic ice cap has actually been increasing in net volume over the past 20 or 30 years, with a calculated effect of about a quarter of a cm drop in the world's sea levels.

On the contrary, this is a red herring. (I read this article explaining the study.) First of all, the study measured area of sea ice, not volume of the total ice cap. They don't know to the same degree of certainty what the thickness is.

Second, the global net ice cap is still decreasing:

Quote
"There's been an overall increase in the sea ice cover in the Antarctic, which is the opposite of what is happening in the Arctic,” said lead author Claire Parkinson, a climate scientist with NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. "However, this growth rate is not nearly as large as the decrease in the Arctic.”

Third, they specifically warn people against drawing the false conclusion you just made:

Quote
Parkinson said that the fact that some areas of the Southern Ocean are cooling and producing more sea ice does not disprove a warming climate.

"Climate does not change uniformly: The Earth is very large and the expectation definitely would be that there would be different changes in different regions of the world,” Parkinson said. "That's true even if overall the system is warming.”

« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 09:45:58 AM by Jack »

Glenstache

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #147 on: November 13, 2015, 09:47:13 AM »
Meanwhile... looks like this week may be the last time we see 400 ppm CO2 at the Mauna Loa Observatory (an important measurement point because it is a high-quality data set for many decades) in our lifetimes unless we get an unexpectedly low dip next Aug-September.

http://blogs.agu.org/mountainbeltway/2015/11/09/the-final-days-of-sub-400-ppm-carbon-dioxide/

The link is to a blog and semi-opinion piece.

Onward and upward!

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #148 on: November 13, 2015, 11:43:51 AM »
  • Second, speaking of disasters: contrary to music lover's yet-another-erroneous-comment above (about the government failing to maintain the levees in New Orleans -- no, music lover, the government failed to design the levees for a storm that big),
The government either knew that they weren't designed properly but opted to not to build them to a proper standard, and then allowed people to live in unsafe areas prone to flooding. Or, they were designed properly but not maintained over the years.

Therefore, my comment that the failure was the fault of government was right.[/list]
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 12:04:31 PM by music lover »

music lover

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Re: Liberal environmentalist changes his mind about CO2
« Reply #149 on: November 13, 2015, 11:48:09 AM »
Meanwhile... looks like this week may be the last time we see 400 ppm CO2 at the Mauna Loa Observatory (an important measurement point because it is a high-quality data set for many decades) in our lifetimes unless we get an unexpectedly low dip next Aug-September.

http://blogs.agu.org/mountainbeltway/2015/11/09/the-final-days-of-sub-400-ppm-carbon-dioxide/

The link is to a blog and semi-opinion piece.

Onward and upward!

You're right that it's an opinion piece as it's not based on known facts. Plants will flourish and the planet will become greener, which is good for everyone. This is lost on the fear mongers who lack or choose to ignore basic science.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!