Let's talk about affairs

[Carini]

A thread to share stories, advice, tips, and resolutions after an affair. Can be from the cheater or the person that was cheated on.  Please feel free to share you infidelity story.

[iluvzbeach]

Carini,

Haven't seen you on here in a really long time. What's going on in your situation?

[K-ice]

Hi, yes long time no-see.

I am sorry to hear that this must still be an issue and bothering you quite a lot.

Many friends are struggling with divorce lately. I can't think of any that don't involve either affairs, addictions or money.

Even if an affair leads to divorce most courts don't care, and treat it as no-fault.

A lot of smart lawyers & judges have realized it is best to move on if you are not constantly blaming each other.

So I would recommend that if you (& I mean "you" in the general sense) plan on staying together, then re-building needs to start from a no-fault basis.

The adulter  should also cut off any contact with the mistress (mister?).

In one case I know the wife found out via texts. A family meeting was called, couple, parents, inlaws...

They were planning on working it out but he would not give up his girlfriend!!

Needless to say, this is a bad story that didn't result in a resolution.

I really think cutting off contact with the mistress or mister is an important tip.

[fdhs_runner]

My story in cliffs: back in late 2012 I found out from her journal [seriously, no joke, she wrote it down] that the wife was running around with some dude at night. The reason given as to where she was going made less than no sense, hence why I got suspicious and pried. After I found out I called my boss, then took the next day away from work to set up a separate bank account, redirect my coming direct deposit to said bank account, and find a place to stay for the time being. Once I had all that setup I went home from work and let her know that I knew.

Spent the next two months living apart, eventually moved back in together but needless to say my trust in her was destroyed. Certain suspicious things she did in late 2014 while I was gone for 2 months brought that lack of trust back into sharp focus, then when work moved me to the next state over in 2015 she decided she'd rather stay behind. 8 months later after she still hadn't moved to where I was [and had been running herself financially into the ground] I told her I was done. It didn't help that she was acting suspicious in 2015 either. 

In the end I got very lucky though. I found a lawyer who drew everything up and got it done for $1,200 including court fees and all she wanted was enough to pay off her credit card: $6,000. We still talk occasionally [friendly talking], she's still running her finances into the ground, I'm way ahead of where I was back then money wise, and life isn't bad.

I was asked a few months ago if I was going to a fancy ball that work was throwing; I told them that there's a few things I'm really glad that I never did with the ex-wife: we didn't buy a house, we didn't have children, and we never attended a fancy ball that work threw.

Bonus out of the whole thing besides a life lesson: the few times when current co-workers comment on my "cheapness" or ask why I'm that way I just tell them that I'm recovering from a divorce :p

[Uturn]

My ex cheated on me, it sucks.  Instead of dwelling on the fact that it happened, bit looked into why.  I came away with a few thoughts and opinions.

1. Cheating is not something that just happens, not a mistake, not an oops moment.  It only happens when a person makes a conscious decision to breach the trust of a relationship.
2. I don't see the sex as the breach of trust.  It is the lying and sneaking around that is the breach of trust.  Going back to #1, cheating is not an accident.
3. You can get past it, but you both need to find the underlying cause that lead that person to justify breaking the relationship trust and fix that problem.  Once the underlying problem is fixed, leave it alone and don't dwell.

I spent years trying to figure out what is wrong with me that would cause her to cheat and break up our family.  About 10 years after we split, I finally asked her why.  Why would you sabotage a relationship when you had it all?  She said because she had it all, and it scared the hell out of her.  She said she was 28 and I was the first decent relationship that she ever had with a man, and she didn't know how to handle it.  Huh, sure would have been nice to know that 10 years earlier.   

[fdhs_runner]

Dang, you spent years dwelling on it and wondering why only to get confirmation a decade later that she was the issue?

I spent about 5 minutes on it in my case, it's pretty obvious that the sneaking around was much like her her finances; both stemmed from immaturity.

[mrpercentage]

My honest opinion is if you have been in a long term relationship (5-20 years) and your significant other has only cheated on you once or twice consider yourself lucky.
If they were considerate enough to not get caught and didn't give you someone else's kids or a disease consider yourself very lucky.
I think most are just people acting out animal urges and are not some part of an evil plot to hurt others through extreme selfishness.

I can only tell you what has extremely tempted me.
A coworker started asking about fitness and what she can do to cut down on body fat. Then she whips out the phone and shows my pictures so I can "understand" with her in lace bent over. Then she says I owe her something because I saw too much and wants to see my frank so she can enter a hotdog eating contest (okay not really thats just the PG-13 version).
Another said that she likes married men but only if they don't fall in love with her because that defeats the point.
When I was in college a bunch of 18-20 year olds threw themselves at me in biology because on the first day I was busted checking out cleavage so cleavage girl hit on me and I shut her down. It turned the other girls on and made it some sort of challenge. Girls are weird. They knew I had a baby at home--- kinda sick. I wanted to animal everyone of them. Does that make me a bad guy?

All of that said. Im sorry you were hurt. That is never cool. Animals don't mean to hurt they just do what they feel like

[sol]

I had a girlfriend in college who was unhappy in our relationship, so she boned one of my friends and then tearfully confessed the whole thing in some sort of misguided attempt to repair things.  I tossed her.  Ain't nobody got time for that.

No forgiveness.  No second chances.  If you're a terrible human being, you have to live with yourself but I sure as hell don't.

[mrpercentage]

I had a girlfriend in college who was unhappy in our relationship, so she boned one of my friends and then tearfully confessed the whole thing in some sort of misguided attempt to repair things.

Im sorry man. Im not a woman hater on reddit but my life experience has revealed more cheaters on that side of the fence. Just my experience. I knew a guy that was a year and a half in on raising a kid that was not his. I think maybe its just a lot easier for them to do it. I know a few bad guys too and openly shameless about it. Some people have less self control. That is true with money, food, drugs, television, and good old masturbation. Thats as unfiltered and real as I can be. All virtue begins with self control.

[sol]

Im sorry man.

Meh.  We were young.  I was a shitty boyfriend.  We all made bad decisions, but cutting her loose was the first semi-adult decision I ever made in life.  It was the first time I decided I was going to be a man who believed in something instead of one who floats through life responsively. 

Im not a woman hater on reddit but my life experience has revealed more cheaters on that side of the fence.

I suspect that's just a matter of greater opportunity.

I knew a guy that was a year and a half in on raising a kid that was not his.

Some of the best fathers I have ever known raised kids they knew weren't their own.  Being a parent isn't about your shared genes.

[mrpercentage]

Some of the best fathers I have ever known raised kids they knew weren't their own.  Being a parent isn't about your shared genes.

Agreed.. but he thought it was his. It was her affair.

[shamedone]

I'm here to post experience from the other side.  In my case, I was the one who cheated on my spouse who I had been 100% faithful to for 18 years.  The whole actual physical encounter lasted only several minutes, but it changed my life forever.  In my case she was a very good friend who obviously didn't respect my marriage and ended up wanting to take things to the next level.  I went along with it for that short time but regained sanity very shortly thereafter.  Naturally the story is far more complicated than that, but that's the two-second version.  Contrary to previous posts, it was not something I ever planned on doing or consciously decided to do ahead of time.  Even an hour before it happened I didn't ever consider I would do such a thing.  In retrospect the signs were there early on that it was a potential outcome of the friendship, but there was still never a time where I made any sort of conscious decision to do it.  It just sort of happened.

As soon as it happened, I knew I had no choice but to tell my wife.  I tried to convince myself that I didn't need to but I kept coming back to the fact that someway, somehow she would find out it happened and the only way to possibly save my marriage was to be the one to reveal it.  I spent 7 days agonizing over what to do (wife was traveling for work immediately after it happened and I didn't want to tell her before an important conference).

I'll tell you, those 7 days were an odyssey.  I had no idea it was possible to feel so disgusted in myself.  I jumped back and forth between making myself sick, being in despair, thinking how much easier it would be to just shoot myself in the head....it was horrible. 

Fast-forward almost a year later and my marriage is as good as it's been in many years.  I underestimated two things - the strength of my wife and the level of personal guilt that I would end up carrying.  Over the months I made myself sick with chronic conditions from the guilt.  Even after 11 months I'm still only just now regaining my health back. 

Ultimately I contribute the salvation of my marriage to a number of things that I did "right" following the incident:

1. I immediately cut off all contact with my former friend.  I knew I had to commit myself to my marriage and that was the first step.

2. I came clean with my wife.  Our therapist was floored that I actually revealed on my own accord and I think that went a long way in my wife understanding I was taking responsibility and owning up to the action while committing to our marriage.  I received a lot of advice on the internet or from friends that I should just not tell her and move on.  Another problem was the whole thing was unprotected - like I said it wasn't something I had planned on ahead of time.  So I needed STD tests and think I ended up actually getting HSV from the encounter...it would have been terrible had my wife found out about it after the fact.  I have no doubt divorce would have followed.

3. Immediately we went to couples therapy.  This was a lifesaver.  Never in a million years did I ever think WE would need therapy, we'd been together since we just received our drivers licenses for Christ's sake.  But it was key, and we still go from time to time just because of how good it's been for our relationship.  We were going several times a week during the crisis times (say the first 2-3 months). 

If you have any specific questions please feel free to ask, since I have a rather unique perspective on this one.  It's very easy to judge someone else's relationship who is going through this if you've never been there yourself.  I used to be that person, rolling my eyes in disgust if I heard about someone else's infidelity.  Now I have a whole different perspective, the experience being extremely humbling to me.  And society is filled with constant reminders that cheaters are bad (I still struggle with this one).  It's very hard to watch a TV show like Scandal with my wife and deal with the constant reminders.

I'll say again, if you've never been there try to go easy on the judgement.  You can think through a thousand times in your head how you'd react if you were the giving/receiving one in such a situation, but when it actually happens it's a totally different experience.   

[lifejoy]

Relevant thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/the-happy-marriage-resources-thread/

Some good stuff in there! :)

[Metric Mouse]

I honestly read the first sentence as "tips and advice on having an affair." Probably a sign marriage isn't for me...

[fallstoclimb]

This is a pretty boring story given that nothing close to an affair happened, but after 5 years of marriage (10 years total of easy, temptation-free monogamy) I recently met a man to whom I was so strongly attracted that I suddenly understood for the first time why people cheat.

I didn't act on it, but it was a real wake-up call for the power of chemistry.  I honestly didn't know I could feel something so strong about someone who was essentially a stranger.  Of course I've found other people attractive over the course of our relationship, but this was something else. 

My marriage is currently in great shape too, so it's not that I'm unhappy, although I am feeling restless with the rest of our life and maybe that's part of what drove this.  I'm not sure. 

I spent a month worried about the strength of my feelings and what it might "mean."  Then I went to an event where I saw that man again, hugged him and chatted with him and felt....almost nothing, beyond my usual detached recognition that he's a very good-looking guy.

I think the complete dissipation of the attraction had a lot to do with the fact that I was pretty honest with my husband about this the whole time - it was something we joked about - so it never grew into some secretive obsession.  That took a lot of its potential power away.  Another takeaway is how quickly temptation can change.  In the intensity of my initial feelings, I thought this was a real -- I don't know -- option, threat, something meaningful or important?  But just as quickly as it started, it ended.  This was nothing.

At the same time it made me a little more understanding of cheating, at least when its a one-time thing.  I did want to act on my feelings.  I wanted to bone the heck out of that dude.  But, also, at no point in this weird little journey of attraction did I feel any differently about my husband.  Big picture, the whole thing was meaningless.  Of course I hope my husband makes the same choice I did if he is ever in a similar situation, but if he doesn't, I don't know, maybe I'll find a way to be a little understanding.

[SimplyMarvie]

Mr. Marvie cheated on me about a year after we got married. It was a one time thing, and we actually have an open relationship (yes, you can 'cheat' in an open relationship), but the way everything went down afterwards was instrumental in saving our marriage - and our community.

He told me, I freaked out, went to work, wrote very angry things on the internet and listened to a lot of really angry abusive music and then took off to a friend's house for the weekend in my home town... still very angry, still thinking we should get divorced. Our friends came together as a group to hug me and ply me with drinks and tell me that he was a shit head... but also that  they honestly thought that two of us were good together and that it was a mistake on his part, and that they thought we could and should work through it and they would be there to help. Meanwhile, the same friends called and went to visit Mr. Marvie and told him the same thing -- that he was an asshole who did something dumb, but that they believed we should stay together and were there to help and support us while we tried to come back from this.

Mr. Marvie stopped seeing and talking to the woman involved immediately. He made it a policy to have all communications above-board, so he'd talk on the phone in the room with me, and let me see his e-mail and texts if I asked. We talked really honestly about what happened and why -- that it was a spur of the moment thing, that it wasn't about something he wasn't getting in our relationship or my being ugly or bad in bed or something. We also talked about how I was horribly angry at him, and hurt, but that I didn't feel that way all the time... but needed to be able to express those feelings when they came up. For the next bunch of weeks sometimes things would be fine between us and sometimes I'd get upset and need to yell at him or talk to him for a while. I also was able to vent and yell and scream to friends who always, always supported me in being angry but also supported me in continuing the relationship. Gradually, the periods of being generally okay took over, normalcy returned and I forgave him for what had happened.

We were also in the middle of expensive and emotionally draining IVF procedures at that point. We made a mutual decision to get off that roller coaster, and I slowly was able to see that the meds and stress were driving us both crazy. We tried other options and got pregnant a year later, with a stronger marriage and a way lighter bank account. :) Strangely, we are both now still friends with the woman who was involved, with very few bad feelings in the mix. It was a thing that happened, now it's over, and life has moved on.

[GuitarStv]

No forgiveness.  No second chances.  If you're a terrible human being, you have to live with yourself but I sure as hell don't.

I tend to be on this page.  If you don't want to be with me, that's fine.  If there's something bothering you, that's fine.  If you need something from me, that's fine.  All of the above can be discussed and handled without being an ass.

Cheating isn't a mistake.  It's a choice to purposefully lie (probably for an extended period of time).  That's going to destroy whatever relationship we once had.  I don't understand how it would be possible to ever trust someone who did that again.

[woopwoop]

No forgiveness.  No second chances.  If you're a terrible human being, you have to live with yourself but I sure as hell don't.

Yup, the moment I caught my ex cheating on me, it was over. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with someone I can't trust. I sympathize with people who have kids or who've been married for a long time when it happens, but I can't imagine ever putting up with that, no matter what. It's possible to break up amicably if the person is truly sorry, and that would be my plan if I ever found out my husband cheated on me.

Being completely faithful does have its downsides. I've been making out with Robert Downey Jr when I realize in a panic that I'm married and then run away. Stupid cockblocking fidelity ruining a nice dream.

[Cookie78]

This is a pretty boring story given that nothing close to an affair happened, but after 5 years of marriage (10 years total of easy, temptation-free monogamy) I recently met a man to whom I was so strongly attracted that I suddenly understood for the first time why people cheat.

I didn't act on it, but it was a real wake-up call for the power of chemistry.  I honestly didn't know I could feel something so strong about someone who was essentially a stranger.  Of course I've found other people attractive over the course of our relationship, but this was something else. 

My marriage is currently in great shape too, so it's not that I'm unhappy, although I am feeling restless with the rest of our life and maybe that's part of what drove this.  I'm not sure. 

I spent a month worried about the strength of my feelings and what it might "mean."  Then I went to an event where I saw that man again, hugged him and chatted with him and felt....almost nothing, beyond my usual detached recognition that he's a very good-looking guy.

I think the complete dissipation of the attraction had a lot to do with the fact that I was pretty honest with my husband about this the whole time - it was something we joked about - so it never grew into some secretive obsession.  That took a lot of its potential power away.  Another takeaway is how quickly temptation can change.  In the intensity of my initial feelings, I thought this was a real -- I don't know -- option, threat, something meaningful or important?  But just as quickly as it started, it ended.  This was nothing.

At the same time it made me a little more understanding of cheating, at least when its a one-time thing.  I did want to act on my feelings.  I wanted to bone the heck out of that dude.  But, also, at no point in this weird little journey of attraction did I feel any differently about my husband.  Big picture, the whole thing was meaningless.  Of course I hope my husband makes the same choice I did if he is ever in a similar situation, but if he doesn't, I don't know, maybe I'll find a way to be a little understanding.

This was very similar to my experience too. I used to be 100% with the no second chances crowd, but now, not so much. It really depends a lot on the situation.

[shamedone]

This was very similar to my experience too. I used to be 100% with the no second chances crowd, but now, not so much. It really depends a lot on the situation.

Me too, 100%.  I'd scoff at anyone who might have gone through a similar experience....."ooooooo that could NEVER happen to me, if my wife did that I'd toss her ass to the curb".  You should have seen how quickly I changed my tune when I was suddenly on that side of the looking glass and facing the possibility of losing the love of my life.  Before I told her, I went through and packed up about a week's worth of living essentials in a suitcase and put it in the trunk of my car.  I was sure she was going to kick me out.  My hands get all clammy just writing about it. 

A lot can happen in 20 years of a relationship.  I'm so thankful she didn't follow through on all her promises of no-second-chances as well.  Given the strength of our relationship now, it would have been such a loss to have thrown it all a way like that.  But certainly everyone's situation is different, no doubt. 

[GuitarStv]

This was very similar to my experience too. I used to be 100% with the no second chances crowd, but now, not so much. It really depends a lot on the situation.

Me too, 100%.  I'd scoff at anyone who might have gone through a similar experience....."ooooooo that could NEVER happen to me, if my wife did that I'd toss her ass to the curb".  You should have seen how quickly I changed my tune when I was suddenly on that side of the looking glass and facing the possibility of losing the love of my life.  Before I told her, I went through and packed up about a week's worth of living essentials in a suitcase and put it in the trunk of my car.  I was sure she was going to kick me out.  My hands get all clammy just writing about it. 

A lot can happen in 20 years of a relationship.  I'm so thankful she didn't follow through on all her promises of no-second-chances as well.  Given the strength of our relationship now, it would have been such a loss to have thrown it all a way like that.  But certainly everyone's situation is different, no doubt.

If she was the love of her life, why were you fucking around on the side and lying to her about it?

[Cookie78]

This was very similar to my experience too. I used to be 100% with the no second chances crowd, but now, not so much. It really depends a lot on the situation.

Me too, 100%.  I'd scoff at anyone who might have gone through a similar experience....."ooooooo that could NEVER happen to me, if my wife did that I'd toss her ass to the curb".  You should have seen how quickly I changed my tune when I was suddenly on that side of the looking glass and facing the possibility of losing the love of my life.  Before I told her, I went through and packed up about a week's worth of living essentials in a suitcase and put it in the trunk of my car.  I was sure she was going to kick me out.  My hands get all clammy just writing about it. 

A lot can happen in 20 years of a relationship.  I'm so thankful she didn't follow through on all her promises of no-second-chances as well.  Given the strength of our relationship now, it would have been such a loss to have thrown it all a way like that.  But certainly everyone's situation is different, no doubt.

If she was the love of her life, why were you fucking around on the side and lying to her about it?

He didn't lie about it. He told his wife what happened.

[shamedone]

This was very similar to my experience too. I used to be 100% with the no second chances crowd, but now, not so much. It really depends a lot on the situation.

Me too, 100%.  I'd scoff at anyone who might have gone through a similar experience....."ooooooo that could NEVER happen to me, if my wife did that I'd toss her ass to the curb".  You should have seen how quickly I changed my tune when I was suddenly on that side of the looking glass and facing the possibility of losing the love of my life.  Before I told her, I went through and packed up about a week's worth of living essentials in a suitcase and put it in the trunk of my car.  I was sure she was going to kick me out.  My hands get all clammy just writing about it. 

A lot can happen in 20 years of a relationship.  I'm so thankful she didn't follow through on all her promises of no-second-chances as well.  Given the strength of our relationship now, it would have been such a loss to have thrown it all a way like that.  But certainly everyone's situation is different, no doubt.

If she was the love of her life, why were you fucking around on the side and lying to her about it?

Funny you should mention that.  Based on your reaction earlier I had literally pegged you to ask this exact question as I was writing my response.  As was pointed out, I never did "f*ck around on the side" or lie about it.  It was one and done.  That didn't necessarily make me feel much better about it, but I do take some comffort in knowing that I never actively tried to deceive her about anything.  I think for me it's the difference that allows me to feel guilt vs. true shame.  Ultimately I know I'm not a bad person.

Assuming you were being genuine in your question and not just snarky, our relationship at the time was in a low point.  Like I said, if you've been with someone since you were 17 years old, almost 20yrs straight, it's not unexpected that at some point you might become complacement.  Combined with stresses at work and my wife was in a rather low point.  Specifically, we weren't working to protect our marriage, neither of us really trying to be there for the other person. 

At the same time, this other person befriended me and we eventually became very good friends.  This allowed me to become too comfortable in her presence.  I'm naturally a very shy and reserved person.  While some of the email back and forth was perhaps borderline flirty (we were mostly remote from each other), there was never any sort of illicit communication and we certainly never approached the subject of cheating.  At the time I genuinely thought she just wanted to be friends.  Heck, my wife knew all about her from the moment we met, I never tried to hide any of it.  I attribute some of this to the fact that I never really dated when I was younger, having been with my wife almost straight from the beginning.  When I showed my wife the communications that we had, she pointed out some warning signs that I didn't internalize until after the fact.

In any case, combine the schism between my wife and I + this other person befriending me at about the same time + her ultimately pursuing me very aggressively when it did actually happen....the combination was just too much at the time.  I had never been through anything like this and my guard was down when it happened.  It's certainly not something I plan on putting myself through again.  And I say myself because without a doubt I've been far harder on myself than my wife ever was.  I'm now much more attuned to the signs and my wife and I are both matured in dealing with problems in our relationship that could lead to such a scenario.  "Defending your marriage" is the term that I've come to learn, and neither of us were doing that when the time came.

[sol]

I'm sorry, I'm just not buying these "I don't know what happened I just sort of accidentally had sex" rationalizations I'm seeing here.  I have never once accidentally had sex with someone.  I have (several times) accidentally refused to have sex with someone, but never the other way around.

I'm still waiting for the third party to chime in on this thread.  Surely some of you were not the cheater or the cheated, but the "other party" who intruded into someone else's relationship. Why haven't you spoken up yet?

I was the other party once, years ago, unwittingly.  After about a month with this girl, I found out she had a boyfriend in another country.  She confessed and was conflicted about it and didn't know what to do.  Seriously?  How do people not learn this stuff?  If you're attached, don't sleep with other people.  If you want to sleep with other people, get unattached first.  Why is it apparently so hard to be a decent human being? 

This is like kindergarten level common courtesy, folks.  Don't lie to the people you claim to love.

[shamedone]

I'm sorry, I'm just not buying these "I don't know what happened I just sort of accidentally had sex" rationalizations I'm seeing here.  I have never once accidentally had sex with someone.  I have (several times) accidentally refused to have sex with someone, but never the other way around.

I'm still waiting for the third party to chime in on this thread.  Surely some of you were not the cheater or the cheated, but the "other party" who intruded into someone else's relationship. Why haven't you spoken up yet?

I was the other party once, years ago, unwittingly.  After about a month with this girl, I found out she had a boyfriend in another country.  She confessed and was conflicted about it and didn't know what to do.  Seriously?  How do people not learn this stuff?  If you're attached, don't sleep with other people.  If you want to sleep with other people, get unattached first.  Why is it apparently so hard to be a decent human being? 

This is like kindergarten level common courtesy, folks.  Don't lie to the people you claim to love.

In my case it wasn't full-on sex.  It was contact of a sexual nature.  Not sure where I claimed it was an accident, I believe I said it wasn't something I set out intending to do.  The whole interaction was rather complicated and I don't necessarily feel the need to give further details specific to it on this forum.  Ultimately I know the truth of what happened and that's the most important part for me.

[mxt0133]

Why is it apparently so hard to be a decent human being? 

Because it's human nature to take and do what we want regardless of the consequences.  It has been going on since the age of man and will continue to happen until we are all dead.

[wenchsenior]

  Seriously?  How do people not learn this stuff?  If you're attached, don't sleep with other people.  If you want to sleep with other people, get unattached first.  Why is it apparently so hard to be a decent human being? 

This is like kindergarten level common courtesy, folks.  Don't lie to the people you claim to love.

Ha! I was once having a tiresome convo with someone, who was drunkenly bewailing the end of their marriage. At one point they started self righteously going on about how the ex didn't know how lucky they had it, because "I NEVER cheated! Not once!"

I laughed straight in their face and said, "You know, fidelity is one of the most BASIC criteria of being a non-asshole spouse, right? You don't get special award points for doing it."

I actually do get that people make mistakes. I can see working through infidelity in some circumstances. But people who self-righteously congratulate themselves for staying faithful to their partner are pretty ridiculous, IMO.

[mrpercentage]

I actually do get that people make mistakes. I can see working through infidelity in some circumstances. But people who self-righteously congratulate themselves for staying faithful to their partner are pretty ridiculous, IMO.

We all have wanted to at some point unless you are a new couple. If you couldn't stay faithful a couple of years then I don't know what to say other than self control, but at some point in a long term relationship you are pissed at eachother and haven't had sex in months and are together because the kids, or property, or just hanging on by your fingernails <---- when this happens its really hard to blow off the flirty coworker just looking for a score that tells you its time for fun stuff that mostly new couples do. Hmm, thats hard. I mean a really hard decision. Throbbing really.

So I try not to judge because I know I was tempted and wanted to do it pretty badly.

Also when I was younger I did not care or have respect for those in relationships unless they were a really close friend. I was lonely and raging with hormones that made my pants feel like they were going to explode. One look in her eyes and I would know if the animal in her liked it. If it did then I aimed to please. I am older and wiser. I avoid such things like the plague but my beast is still there just less powerful than before. I still know when their animal likes it. Some of them like me have a higher amount of control and are more aware of the consequences. Just because they like the idea doesn't mean they will do it.

Consider that a confession. Like this one https://youtu.be/M4B-PysR_4s

[GuitarStv]

In my case it wasn't full-on sex.  It was contact of a sexual nature.  Not sure where I claimed it was an accident, I believe I said it wasn't something I set out intending to do.  The whole interaction was rather complicated and I don't necessarily feel the need to give further details specific to it on this forum.  Ultimately I know the truth of what happened and that's the most important part for me.

You listed out a lot of reasons why this happened in your response:
- trouble at work
- your wife wasn't talking with/appreciating you
- marriage 'complacency'
- you were incapable of realizing what was going on with the other woman because you were too pure
- the woman aggressively came on to you

That's a lot of excuses, but short on any acceptance that this was 100% your fault.  You are under control of your own actions.  You don't get to drink to excess and then claim that you beat someone to death because of the evil alcohol.  You don't get to put yourself in a situation where you end up screwing around with someone else and then claim that it was an accident (or shift blame to the conniving woman).  Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you and your wife are in a great place now and have worked things out.

I'm just not as forgiving as you and your wife both appear to be.

[2Birds1Stone]

Anyone interested in having an affair?

I like puppies, long walks on the beach, and food play.

[human]

This thread is sad, I don't know whats worse all the cheating men blaming the women they cheated on or the men saying women cheat more than men or the men just hating on women. Maybe your wives cheated on you because yer all pigs!

[sol]

This thread is sad,

Discussions of marital infidelity rarely end up being very cheerful.  What did you expect?

[limeandpepper]

In my case she was a very good friend who obviously didn't respect my marriage

I can actually possibly understand how cheating may occur in some situations, but this sentence really bothered me. It's not an outsider's job to respect your marriage. That's your job.

[mrpercentage]

This thread is sad, I don't know whats worse all the cheating men blaming the women they cheated on or the men saying women cheat more than men or the men just hating on women. Maybe your wives cheated on you because yer all pigs!

I acknowledge that if the conditions were just right I might do something really stupid. I wouldn't go looking for trouble but nature has done a great job at making two turn into seven billion.

I had a friend in highschool who's parents were swingers and into porn that we would raid while they were out of the house. They had a huge sex toy collection. He was really embarrassed by some of the porn his dad would buy because it would be girls with hairy arm pits, big juggs, fat girls (the actual title), and transvestites. Pretty much anything you can imagine. Terrible. Terribly funny to me. Sometimes were would find this stuff and he would turn beet red. I would flirt with his step mom sometimes and she would get a real kick out of it but nothing happened. They were responsible perverts. Cool in a really weird way to a teenager. Much more honest that most adults with hypocritical masks pretending to be more honorable than they are. I respected them for that. Me, I could never share. I am way too selfish for that. Way too jealous for that.

Way too many of my friends parents growing up went through more than one divorce. Hell, my dad wasn't there for me either. At least he was consistent and never showed up. My mom was a saint to me. She was married to 3 assholes and finished her life with a 13 year marriage to a decent guy. My wife parents were divorced. They are both on their second marriage but have remained together for couple decades.

I guess the moral of this story is we are not all pigs. We are just human. The disgust people feel is often only a recognition of an unrestrained version of themselves. Anyways, these sort of things have to be experienced. You can't textbook that kind of knowledge. Im going to go Tyrion down some wine. It's my Saturday. Cheers.

[human]

This thread is sad,

Discussions of marital infidelity rarely end up being very cheerful.  What did you expect?

Just ignore the rest of my post if it makes you feel better. The thread is sad not because of the infidelity but because of the losers that can't move on with their lives or need to have a woman to blame all their problems on. In some cases I see the posters just don't think women deserve respect. This will descend into redpill territory soon, it never fails.

[sol]

losers that can't move on with their lives or need to have a woman to blame all their problems on. In some cases I see the posters just don't think women deserve respect. This will descend into redpill territory soon, it never fails.

Do you see the irony in this critique?  You're concerned that men are unfairly maligning women as a group instead of as individuals, and so your response is to call all men pigs?  To assert that this discussion, which has mostly been civil, is inevitably headed towards horribleness just because all men are horrible?  Isn't that a much more gross generalization?  Are you maybe guilty of more sexism than anyone else in this thread?

Just a thought.

I do agree with you that mrpercentage said some things that are slightly icky.  And I tried to clarify, for example, that if he has seen more women than men have affairs in his life that it might be just because men are more willing to have an affair with a woman who is looking than women are to have an affair with a man who is looking, so it could be because women just have more opportunities for infidelity.  That's not an indictment of women.  Quite the contrary, I think.

But if you'd like to call me a misogynist pig again, I'll understand.  Infidelity is a topic which is rarely cheerful, and rarely logical.

Please share share with us, human, what are your experiences with infidelity?

[human]

Thanks for putting words on my keyboard for me. The men on this thread are behaving like pigs, not all men. As a male I can be a pig too but I don't usually make such a depressing scene about it. Maybe you guys need a little perspective to see how sad and pathetic you are, the world is much bigger than one make out session or dalliance.

You want to break up over it? Go ahead, but stop digging up the sordid details years later and act all tough about it (or depressingly pathetic about it). Move on already.

[Tyson]

The way I see it is this - I am biologically programmed to find certain women attractive.  I have no choice about that.  But whether or not I act on that?  I have complete control over that.  So I don't act on it.  My wife has the same view. 

[sol]

The men on this thread are behaving like pigs, not all men.

All of them?  I thought GuitarSV, for example, did a fine job of highlighting that each person bears responsibility for their own infidelity, despite all of the attempted excuses we have heard here.  Is that piggish behavior? 

the world is much bigger than one make out session or dalliance.

You want to break up over it? Go ahead, but stop digging up the sordid details years later and act all tough about it (or depressingly pathetic about it). Move on already.

Are you hinting that you have some episode of infidelity in your past that you find insignificant cause for separation from your current partner?  Did your partner even find out about it?  Because I think hiding your infidelity is something only a pig would do.

I think it's clear that everyone here has moved on from their own affair story.  Some of us have moved on by separating and trying to forget.  Others by forgiving (or begging forgiveness) and trying to forget.   I don't see anyone trying to act tough or pathetic, except maybe you.

[mrpercentage]

Fine. I will own it. I am a pig by profession and youthful deed. Most of it I enjoyed and as I matured I made sure to consider other people and care about consequences for both others and myself.

My experience has been that life is trial by error. Anyone who professes righteousness is either lying or is woefully inexperienced through a sheltered life. Im not saying that is bad but it is my honest opinion

We are animals and failure to recognize that is delude ourselves into looking at everything else in contempt while betraying our very own nature. If you are never honest about who you are you will never be loved for who you are. That is one of the things that amazed me about my friends parents. They were honest that they could never remain faithful and still found someone who excepted them for who they were and let them be who they were and live the way they wanted to. That part was beautiful. While I personally think there is something toxic about an open marriage I will not judge others for having the courage to be themselves and do it. It would take a lot of balls to tell a partner that. To expose yourself like that. There are many forms of virtue. Being true to your nature is one of them. Good night

[SnackDog]

Given that this is a frugal living forum,we must bear in mind the operating costs of a mistress. These can run from a few thousand per year (hotels, movies, dinners) to the moon (apartment, jewelry, travel).  Ideally, one would cheat with someone similarly frugal and minimize the cost involved.

Of course, cheating can lead to divorce, which, as we know, is financial Armageddon.

[boy_bye]

I dunno, I don't think that an affair is necessarily something to end a long-standing and mostly good relationship over. (There are some very puritanical comments floating around on this thread!)

We are all human. Human beings fuck up sometimes. The important thing is to own it, apologize, and try to make it right. Look at why it happened. Figure it out. Learn.

To me, the thing that makes any mistake difficult to forgive is when the person refuses to take responsibility for it. When people are like "it wasn't my fault" or "this terrible thing happened to me and made me do this other terrible thing." None of that shit matters. When you fuck up, the only way past it is to take responsibility for it.

And if your partner takes responsibility and tries to make it right and you are still not able to forgive, then you can't blame the demise of the relationship entirely on them.

[GuitarStv]

We are all human. Human beings fuck up sometimes. The important thing is to own it, apologize, and try to make it right. Look at why it happened. Figure it out. Learn.

To me, the thing that makes any mistake difficult to forgive is when the person refuses to take responsibility for it. When people are like "it wasn't my fault" or "this terrible thing happened to me and made me do this other terrible thing." None of that shit matters. When you fuck up, the only way past it is to take responsibility for it.

Absolutely, people fuck up sometimes.  In a long relationship sometimes you take the other person for granted, sometimes you start arguing, sometimes you go through a sex drought, etc.  There are mistakes that get made regularly.  That's why it's important to talk and listen to the 'love of your life'.  Having sex with someone else is moving in the opposite direction . . . it's signalling that you want to end a relationship, not fix it.

I see infidelity in the same category as beating your wife.  It's crossing a line.  Sure, some women will take back a partner who has been abusive before . . . and sure, the abuser absolutely will claim that it was a one time mistake and it'll never happen again.  They'll apologize.  They have already broken a fundamental trust though.  You will never be safe around that person again.  I understand that there are reasons that might make you think it's a good idea to forgive . . . but nothing outweighs the risks associated with that action.

And if your partner takes responsibility and tries to make it right and you are still not able to forgive, then you can't blame the demise of the relationship entirely on them.

Actually, I think you can.  The destruction of the respect and safety of the marriage is not the fault of the person who is beaten, and it's not the fault of the person who was cheated on.  Stop spreading blame to the victim.

[boy_bye]

Cheating is not anything like beating someone. It's more like lying to someone -- not awesome, but also not akin to physical assault.

You also have to see that the way you see this is culturally constructed. In some cultures it's not nearly as big a deal. The primary marriage relationship is understood to be about life partnership moreso than looking to your spouse to exclusively provide all of your needs. In other cultures, the fact that I take trips without my husband is unforgivable. Right and wrong varies a lot between places and times.

All that being said, it would devastate my husband if I cheated on him, and vice versa. But that doesn't mean that everyone would or should react the same way. There's room for different points of view on this.

Sometimes it seems to me that our culture (or, mine I should say -- North American white pipo) fetishizes marriage, l its the be-all end-all of human relationships, and I don't see where anyone benefits from that.

All relationships are ultimately about negotiation, and recovering from a breach of trust is not exempt from that. You might not choose to negotiate from that point but I feel it's ridiculous to judge others who do.

[shamedone]

In my case it wasn't full-on sex.  It was contact of a sexual nature.  Not sure where I claimed it was an accident, I believe I said it wasn't something I set out intending to do.  The whole interaction was rather complicated and I don't necessarily feel the need to give further details specific to it on this forum.  Ultimately I know the truth of what happened and that's the most important part for me.

You listed out a lot of reasons why this happened in your response:
- trouble at work
- your wife wasn't talking with/appreciating you
- marriage 'complacency'
- you were incapable of realizing what was going on with the other woman because you were too pure
- the woman aggressively came on to you

That's a lot of excuses, but short on any acceptance that this was 100% your fault.  You are under control of your own actions.  You don't get to drink to excess and then claim that you beat someone to death because of the evil alcohol.  You don't get to put yourself in a situation where you end up screwing around with someone else and then claim that it was an accident (or shift blame to the conniving woman).  Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you and your wife are in a great place now and have worked things out.

I'm just not as forgiving as you and your wife both appear to be.

Oh trust me, I certainly owned up to what I did.  Maybe you skimmed over that part, but that's one of the primary reasons I believe my marriage survived.  I also think you may be selectively picking out points from my posts to fit your preconceived notion about how this sort of thing is supposed to play out in your own mind.  I used to think the same way as you.  I don't blame the other woman for what happened.  In retrospect I do believe that her agenda was to break up my marriage, but that's hardly shirking responsibility, it's just the nature of the situation.  As I stated, they were all contributing factors.  One or two of those things might not have led to what happened, but adding them all up was sort of a perfect storm.  My wife warned me about her in advance - at the time I refused to see it, I did just consider her a good friend.  Unfortunately my wife took an adversarial approach to which I responded by digging my own heels in and refusing to see what was obvious in hindsight, through therapy we realized the way we were approaching the situation wasn't conducive to either of us really understanding how we were hurting each other.

Let's turn things around a bit, say you were in my position...now I'm sure someone so righteous as yourself would never fall prey to such moral failing....but humor me for a moment.  You're telling me you would go to your wife, someone with whom you grew up together, survived HS dating, survived dating while at different colleges, survived long-distance dating on opposite sides of the country...ultimately married, built a home together, survived independent successful careers...never waivered even once in 20 years.  Then you screw up, one time.  You're saying to me you would go to your wife and tell her to hell you're going to file for divorce from her because of what you did, because she should never forgive you for what happened?  No GuitarStv, what you'd do is shed your little sanctimonious cloak and beg for forgiveness and promise to do whatever it takes to make it right.  And if you did things right, perhaps you'd end up as lucky as I've been.

Funny your last quote there.  About 6 months prior, my wife and I were talking about some mutual friends where it was discovered the man had been having a long-term affair on his wife and they were in the process of reconciling.  Neither of us could believe they might get back together and joked to each other about that not happening to us.  I literally told her if she cheated on me: "You better watch yourself, I'm not so forgiving as xyz".  Oops!

[GuitarStv]

Let's turn things around a bit, say you were in my position...now I'm sure someone so righteous as yourself would never fall prey to such moral failing....but humor me for a moment.  You're telling me you would go to your wife, someone with whom you grew up together, survived HS dating, survived dating while at different colleges, survived long-distance dating on opposite sides of the country...ultimately married, built a home together, survived independent successful careers...never waivered even once in 20 years.  Then you screw up, one time.  You're saying to me you would go to your wife and tell her to hell you're going to file for divorce from her because of what you did, because she should never forgive you for what happened?  No GuitarStv, what you'd do is shed your little sanctimonious cloak and beg for forgiveness and promise to do whatever it takes to make it right.  And if you did things right, perhaps you'd end up as lucky as I've been.

The thing is, I've been in your 'perfect storm' position.  My wife and I have been together for fifteen years.  We've survived an awful lot of stuff.  I've had times where my job was going to shit, where I was getting no sleep because of our colicky baby, where we weren't having sex because both of us were exhausted all the time, and where a woman at work started spending a lot of time with me.

You know how I handled it?  By talking with my wife and figuring out a way to work it so that we could both get enough sleep (I slept in the basement on work nights so that I could get sleep and dig myself out of the hole at work, then would be up all night on weekends while my wife had some recuperative sleep time.)  We had some frank discussions about sex, and came to some agreements there as well.  I didn't spend much time with the woman at work because I had stuff that needed fixing at home.

It's possible that if I had chosen to fuck around with another woman I'd have a lot of sympathy for you.  But I didn't.  Because that's not a mistake . . . that's a choice.  A choice to put the needs of your cock above those of the woman you claim that you love.  The woman that you took an oath with.  Sanctimonious?  I guess.  I don't actually think that it's morally superior to most people to expect fidelity in marriage.  It's a bare minimum.  Like not beating your wife in marriage.

Look, I feel for you.  I really do.  You made a choice, then after the fact you got cold feet.  You came clean right away, which is good.  Again, I'm happy that you and your wife have worked it out and are cool with things.  Don't ask me to condone your behaviour though, or to advocate for women to take back husbands who have proven that they will cheat given the opportunity.

[iris lily]

I'm sorry, I'm just not buying these "I don't know what happened I just sort of accidentally had sex" rationalizations I'm seeing here.  I have never once accidentally had sex with someone.  I have (several times) accidentally refused to have sex with someone, but never the other way around.

I'm still waiting for the third party to chime in on this thread.  Surely some of you were not the cheater or the cheated, but the "other party" who intruded into someone else's relationship. Why haven't you spoken up yet?

I was the other party once, years ago, unwittingly.  After about a month with this girl, I found out she had a boyfriend in another country.  She confessed and was conflicted about it and didn't know what to do.  Seriously?  How do people not learn this stuff?  If you're attached, don't sleep with other people.  If you want to sleep with other people, get unattached first.  Why is it apparently so hard to be a decent human being? 

This is like kindergarten level common courtesy, folks.  Don't lie to the people you claim to love.

Its funny how you brought up the "other party" first but then mention a boyfriend in another country as the SO.

It would be difficult for me as the other party to consider that relationship serious enough to not get involved with one of them f I didnt know them. The boyfriend isnt a spouse. And not even living together? That doesnt look like a relationship that is sacred, if one of them is hunting.

If the hunter isnt honoring it, why should I?

Just playing devils's advocate here.:)

Marriage or even domestic partnership with children in the household, thats a whole 'nother situation and one fraught with so many complexities that I cant see why anyone would barge into that relationship.

[iris lily]

Given that this is a frugal living forum,we must bear in mind the operating costs of a mistress. These can run from a few thousand per year (hotels, movies, dinners) to the moon (apartment, jewelry, travel).  Ideally, one would cheat with someone similarly frugal and minimize the cost involved.

Of course, cheating can lead to divorce, which, as we know, is financial Armageddon.

Haha, thanks for bringing this back into MMM territory!

[Dicey]

When I saw this thread, I was sad that Carini seems unable to let go and  move on with his life. Then I noticed he hasn't  been back since his original post. Think he's practicing his "moving on" skills here?

[pbkmaine]

It's interesting to read all the viewpoints. I have a number of friends who experienced the issue - both cheaters and cheated-upon. Most of them stayed married. They looked at the affair, matter-of-factly, as a sign of big problems in the relationship and took steps to fix it through counseling. The ones who stayed married seem to have really happy relationships today.