Author Topic: Let's ban nightclubs...  (Read 11867 times)

Jamesqf

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Let's ban nightclubs...
« on: January 30, 2013, 01:50:30 PM »
...if we're really interested in saving lives.  We have numerous instances of nightclubs causing mass killings, from the Happy Land and Cocoanut Grove fires of the '40s down to the recent incident in Brazil: http://www.seriousrankings.com/top-10-most-fatal-nightclub-fires/  They also contribute to an untold number of deaths, from everything to panic stampedes to jealous quarrels to drunk/impaired driving by departing patrons.


GuitarStv

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 02:26:01 PM »
I don't think an outright ban would make much sense.

Many nightclubs appear to operate legally, and safely . . . by safe proprietors.

However, you have identified an issue.  Some nightclubs appear to be designed for the sole purpose of killing large numbers of people effectively (the ones where you can cram high capacity mag-I mean-crowds into areas without enough exits for example).  Or the nightclubs where you aren't asked for a background chec-I-mean-ID in order to enter and drink.  Maybe it would make sense to better regulate or ban these nightclubs for the common good.

Y'know.  The way that the Coconut Grove fire led to a sweeping reform of safety standards and codes across the country . . .

James

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 03:05:44 PM »
Isn't it a little soon for another thread of this?

Edited to add: I guess it is in the off topic room... knock yourselves out...  :D

Paul der Krake

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 03:15:49 PM »
Hydrogen is the root of all evils... oh wait.

marty998

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 06:33:34 PM »
Nightclubs don't kill people, people kill people?

smalllife

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 07:01:58 PM »
I saw the title and thought it was going to be a post about over priced drinks, crowds, bad lighting, too loud music, dirty bathrooms, and all of the other unMustachian things about nightclubs. . .  .

Jamesqf

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 08:42:38 PM »
Y'know.  The way that the Coconut Grove fire led to a sweeping reform of safety standards and codes across the country . . .

Yeah, and we know how those reformed safety standards &c have completely eliminated nightclub deaths :-)

I do apologize if it's too soon for another thread, but events in the world happen on a schedule that's out of my control.  Just seems ironic that one form of mass killing brings forth an onslaught of calls for restrictive legislation, while the response to the other is basically "Oh, what a tragedy, let's go clubbing".  I don't even want to get into why a person who wants to shoot up a school is insane, but another who lights off pyrotechnic devices in a crowded room full of inflammable materials is an entertainer...

marty998

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2013, 12:21:48 AM »
Just heard a report that the nightclub owner has attempted suicide?

The developing world is what it is. Whether you fall victim to a firehazard nightclub or go tubing whilst drunk in Laos or die of methanol poisoning in Bali as one unfortunate Perth boy did your chance of disaster is much higher in these places.

In the 1st world we (should be) responsible enough as a society to take steps to prevent tragedies.

The nightclub incident would not happen in Oz. The property industry is buried in legislation up to its collective armpits. Pubs and clubs have additional regulations on top. So yes we whinge and complain about regulation but guess what? we live to whinge and complain another day.

Sorry editing this: just saw another news story that a young performer at Obama's inauguration has been shot, caught in the crossroads of a gang shooting. I didn't contribute to the gun thread (not being American means I don't have the cultural understanding of why guns are cherished) but every time I see a story of a kid being shot I wonder why the fuck doesn't your country do something about it
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 12:25:22 AM by marty998 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2013, 09:31:05 AM »
Yeah, and we know how those reformed safety standards &c have completely eliminated nightclub deaths :-)

We should follow the guiding words of the National Reggae Association, "The only way to make our children safe from dance hall related injury . . . is to turn all schools into dance halls!"

Seriously though, you don't think that safety standards are better and have improved anything since the 1920s?  Of course accidents will still happen, and things will go wrong.  To paraphrase Douglas Adams "The problem with trying to create something completely foolproof is that we are constantly underestimating the ingenuity of utter fools."  The whole idea is to lessen the damage when the problem happens.


I do apologize if it's too soon for another thread, but events in the world happen on a schedule that's out of my control.  Just seems ironic that one form of mass killing brings forth an onslaught of calls for restrictive legislation, while the response to the other is basically "Oh, what a tragedy, let's go clubbing".  I don't even want to get into why a person who wants to shoot up a school is insane, but another who lights off pyrotechnic devices in a crowded room full of inflammable materials is an entertainer...

Umm . . . just going out on a limb here.  The answer that you appear to be perplexed about is 'intent'.  Intent to kill a bunch of kids, vs. (probably stupid) intent to put on an exciting show would be the difference.

It's very disturbing that you can't see that.

Jason G.

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2013, 10:23:17 AM »
I'm not interested in living in a society where every activity that is remotely dangerous is banned. Car accidents kill far more people than night clubs. Should we ban all motor vehicles as a result? Should we ban electrical wiring in buildings because it sometimes causes fires? It's easy to think of examples of dangerous things that are absolutely worth having.

Yes, we value people's lives, but we also value their freedom to choose what level of danger they are comfortable with. Maybe night clubs need new regulations on numbers of exits and sprinkler systems and such, but the answer is clearly not just to ban them.


Jamesqf

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2013, 11:48:39 AM »
The developing world is what it is. Whether you fall victim to a firehazard nightclub or go tubing whilst drunk in Laos or die of methanol poisoning in Bali as one unfortunate Perth boy did your chance of disaster is much higher in these places.

Not just the developing world.  Plenty of such incidents in the first world, too, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

The nightclub incident would not happen in Oz. [/quote]

Yeah, right: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/fire-evacuates-schoolies-nightclub-hotel-on-orchid-avenue-gold-coast/story-e6frg6n6-1226524607955

I'm not interested in living in a society where every activity that is remotely dangerous is banned. Car accidents kill far more people than night clubs. Should we ban all motor vehicles as a result? Should we ban electrical wiring in buildings because it sometimes causes fires? It's easy to think of examples of dangerous things that are absolutely worth having.

Just replace the word "nightclubs" with "guns" in that paragraph, and you might see the point I was trying to make.  Now I personally don't think nightclubs are worth having: haven't been in one in years, and even when I did frequent them, it was either work or a way of meeting women.  (Which I eventually figured out was counter-productive: the women I met in nightclubs were ones that liked to hang out in nightclubs.)  It just strikes me as either blind or hypocritical to try to ban one thing because of some killings, but ignore those killed by the other.

GuitarStv

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2013, 12:04:41 PM »
I'm not interested in living in a society where every activity that is remotely dangerous is banned. Car accidents kill far more people than night clubs. Should we ban all motor vehicles as a result? Should we ban electrical wiring in buildings because it sometimes causes fires? It's easy to think of examples of dangerous things that are absolutely worth having.

Yes, we value people's lives, but we also value their freedom to choose what level of danger they are comfortable with. Maybe night clubs need new regulations on numbers of exits and sprinkler systems and such, but the answer is clearly not just to ban them.

Cars that don't meet minimum safety requirements are banned from public roads.  Yet there few people are complaining about their inability to drive an F1 car down to the supermarket . . .

Banning or regulating dangerous weapons already happens.  You can't own a surface to air missile, despite how much fun it might be to go hunting ducks with.  You can't own a tactical nuke . . . despite how useful it would be for personal defence.  You can't even own an incendiary mortar for target practice.  Do you feel crushingly un-free because of these banned weapons?  No?  Why do you think that banning or regulating some of the more dangerous guns would amount to a drastic reduction of freedom?

Nobody's advocating banning all firearms. . .

kisserofsinners

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2013, 01:14:24 PM »
Don't blame the nightclubs, when clearly the problem is dancing.

marty998

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2013, 01:44:35 PM »
The developing world is what it is. Whether you fall victim to a firehazard nightclub or go tubing whilst drunk in Laos or die of methanol poisoning in Bali as one unfortunate Perth boy did your chance of disaster is much higher in these places.

The nightclub incident would not happen in Oz.

Yeah, right: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/fire-evacuates-schoolies-nightclub-hotel-on-orchid-avenue-gold-coast/story-e6frg6n6-1226524607955


Did you read it? Unlike Brazil, 2000 people were evacuated safely, no one died.

Daley

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2013, 03:46:09 PM »
The developing world is what it is. Whether you fall victim to a firehazard nightclub or go tubing whilst drunk in Laos or die of methanol poisoning in Bali as one unfortunate Perth boy did your chance of disaster is much higher in these places.

The nightclub incident would not happen in Oz.

Yeah, right: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/fire-evacuates-schoolies-nightclub-hotel-on-orchid-avenue-gold-coast/story-e6frg6n6-1226524607955


Did you read it? Unlike Brazil, 2000 people were evacuated safely, no one died.

Like, guh... what were you thinking, James!? Clearly, disar-err making the nightclubs drastically safer for the general public through ridiculous bureaucratic red tape restricting club designs to nothing more than open fields with a ceiling and limiting the total number of clubs available in general will fix this issue! I don't know about you, but I'd rather ignore the core issue of dangerous artistic performances done in venues failing to adhere to existing fire code laws so thousands of people can enjoy being maimed, wounded, and scarred for life all at once in the name of entertainment just so we can avoid having a couple hundred killed by these same night club owners.

grantmeaname

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2013, 07:14:22 AM »
Wait a minute, is this all a big metaphor for something else?

BlueMR2

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2013, 11:13:20 AM »
Wouldn't be surprised if nightclubs are a major contributor to student debt too...  It seems like everyone in college seems to go out clubbing and blow hundreds of dollars nearly every weekend...  Just think if that money was being saved towards paying off the student loans instead!

mm31

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2013, 10:10:41 AM »
Don't really see the connection between a tool used for defense/harm and a place where people go to dance and drink.

Grigory

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2013, 08:47:58 PM »
Ah, yes - a voice indignation from an upright citizen whose motivations are pure and whose first solution is to ban something outright. *eyeroll*

Newsflash: if people really want to do something, they'll do it even if it's illegal. Case in point: the Prohibition, abortions, the failed War on Drugs, prostitution, etc. Let's say you wave your magic wand (unless you have a more realistic way of doing so?), close every nightclub on the planet and make it illegal to open new ones. Guess what? The demand will still be there, so shady entrepreneurs will open underground nightclubs that will have even less safety features!

If you want real change, legalize and regulate the hell out of something.

MountainMan

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2013, 12:12:17 AM »
Don't blame the nightclubs, when clearly the problem is dancing.

Which reminds me of a joke from a bygone religious age...

"Why are the Calvinists against sh*gging standing up?  They fear it may lead to dancing."

marty998

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2013, 12:49:00 AM »
Don't really see the connection between a tool used for defense/harm and a place where people go to dance and drink.

Could be mistaken (this thread has been dead a while) but I think this thread is a somewhat abstract response to this thread:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/$500-million-gun-violence-package/

The OP of this thread was frustrated by some of the "lets ban guns" posts and was pointing out hypocrisy regarding other issues (in this case nightclubs).

Don't blame the nightclubs, when clearly the problem is dancing.

Which reminds me of a joke from a bygone religious age...

"Why are the Calvinists against sh*gging standing up?  They fear it may lead to dancing."

I thought that was a Taliban joke? Something about every position no matter how crazy being acceptable except for the stand up one?

Jamesqf

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2013, 12:13:36 PM »
The OP of this thread was frustrated by some of the "lets ban guns" posts and was pointing out hypocrisy regarding other issues (in this case nightclubs).

Exactly!

I have no personal objection to nightclubs - at least those outside of hearing range - even though they're not something I have any use for.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 12:16:12 PM by Jamesqf »

MountainMan

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2013, 10:52:54 PM »
Don't blame the nightclubs, when clearly the problem is dancing.

Which reminds me of a joke from a bygone religious age...

"Why are the Calvinists against sh*gging standing up?  They fear it may lead to dancing."

I thought that was a Taliban joke? Something about every position no matter how crazy being acceptable except for the stand up one?

It was in the movie, "Rob Roy," which takes place during the hey-day of Calvinism, when England/Scotland was under considerable religious turmoil.  The Calvinists were (and are) quite wound up about such things.

It is probably no surprise that the joke applies equally well to religious fanatics/extremists of all types.

GuitarStv

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2013, 08:49:28 AM »
The OP of this thread was frustrated by some of the "lets ban guns" posts and was pointing out hypocrisy regarding other issues (in this case nightclubs).

Exactly!

I have no personal objection to nightclubs - at least those outside of hearing range - even though they're not something I have any use for.


It's a great analogy for the straw man that you're arguing against.  The people who want gun control though, aren't advocating banning all guns . . . they're advocating for better controls than those currently in place.  You don't think it's weird that there's a licence required and record made when you buy/drive a car, but not one for owning a gun?

Jamesqf

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2013, 12:10:59 PM »
The people who want gun control though, aren't advocating banning all guns . . . they're advocating for better controls than those currently in place.

That may be what they're trying to get now, but most of them really do want to ban all guns.  Their "better" controls are just a way of turning up the temperature of the frog pot a bit.

Quote
You don't think it's weird that there's a licence required and record made when you buy/drive a car, but not one for owning a gun?

If I think there's weirdness involved, it's in the other direction: why should we have this immense government apparatus to control car ownership?

Notice also that there's a significant difference between the two.  Having a driver's license means that (at least in theory) you have been trained to operate a vehicle, and have demonstrated that you're competent to do so.  AFAIK, none of the gun control advocates have ever proposed requiring any training or demonstration of competent gun handling.  No, they just want to make it more difficult to own guns.

mm31

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2013, 12:22:54 PM »
The people who want gun control though, aren't advocating banning all guns . . . they're advocating for better controls than those currently in place.

That may be what they're trying to get now, but most of them really do want to ban all guns.  Their "better" controls are just a way of turning up the temperature of the frog pot a bit.


I guess you're a mind reader. It's pretty easy to disprove your anecdote with another one: most people I know that are for gun control are not for outright bans on them.

Jamesqf

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2013, 05:07:00 PM »
I guess you're a mind reader. It's pretty easy to disprove your anecdote with another one: most people I know that are for gun control are not for outright bans on them.

No, I don't read minds.  I try to deduce people's motives from their actions.  Now if the action of some person or group on passing some particular piece of anti-gun legislation is to immediately call for more such legislation, then I think it's only fair to conclude that what they really want is nothing less than a complete & total ban.

As for the people you know, I see three possibilities:

  1) You and they are honest about what they want;
  2) You're making up a story, misunderstood their motives, etc.
  3) They're lying to you.

I think #3 is both the safest and most reasonable alternative.  Reasonable, because the tactic of claiming you only want a little bit, then a little bit more, and so on until you have everything is commonplace, with countless examples throughout history.  Safe, because even if it turns out that they really do only want "reasonable" controls, their idea of reasonable is other people's idea of tyrannical.

kisserofsinners

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2013, 05:28:48 PM »
I guess you're a mind reader. It's pretty easy to disprove your anecdote with another one: most people I know that are for gun control are not for outright bans on them.

No, I don't read minds.  I try to deduce people's motives from their actions.  Now if the action of some person or group on passing some particular piece of anti-gun legislation is to immediately call for more such legislation, then I think it's only fair to conclude that what they really want is nothing less than a complete & total ban.

As for the people you know, I see three possibilities:

  1) You and they are honest about what they want;
  2) You're making up a story, misunderstood their motives, etc.
  3) They're lying to you.

I think #3 is both the safest and most reasonable alternative.  Reasonable, because the tactic of claiming you only want a little bit, then a little bit more, and so on until you have everything is commonplace, with countless examples throughout history.  Safe, because even if it turns out that they really do only want "reasonable" controls, their idea of reasonable is other people's idea of tyrannical.

That you must resort to an assumption that people are lying is more indicative of trust issues than anything.

The "slippy-slope" argument seems to me to be an excuse used by people who outright refuse to see the better nature of others once they've decided that there is none. You might not get much traction here as this is a more optimistic space.

Jamesqf

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2013, 12:04:16 PM »
That you must resort to an assumption that people are lying is more indicative of trust issues than anything.

True, trust is an issue here.  Why should I trust those who have previously shown themselves to be untrustworthy?

Quote
The "slippy-slope" argument seems to me to be an excuse used by people who outright refuse to see the better nature of others...

OK, I admit I have difficulty seeing where this better nature evidences itself.   Care to show me where you think it is?

Indeed, that apparent lack of better nature is what initially prompted this bit of sarcasm.  The gun control proponents claim that they're only interested in saving lives & ending "gun violence".  (Which is a bit suspicious right there: why don't they care about other kinds of violence?)  Well, we could obviously save lots of lives by banning nightclubs.  Not just the major disasters, but the fights that break out, the casual violence & date rapes, the people driving drunk after a night of clubbing...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 12:19:20 PM by Jamesqf »

marty998

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2013, 04:52:48 PM »
....Not just the major disasters, but the fights that break out, the casual violence & date rapes, the people driving drunk after a night of clubbing...

I don't like pointing out errors but every single one of those problems is alcohol related, not nightclub related.

We have an ever increasing problem here with a culture of getting wasted on as much grog as you possibly can. Nothing, not skyrocketing prices, 2am lockouts, enforcement of RSA guidelines, nothing has worked to stop the alcohol related carnage.

Human nature is what it is. To paraphrase Terry Pratchett: The day someone pulls the plug out of the bottom of the universe the chain will lead all the way to a drunk idiot from a Sydney beer barn.

(For the Discworld fans, the book was Thief of Time)


Jamesqf

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2013, 11:58:53 AM »
I don't like pointing out errors but every single one of those problems is alcohol related, not nightclub related.

No, most of those problems are alcohol related AND nightclub related.  You would not have them (or at least as many of them) if you had alcohol-free nightclubs, nor would you have them if people could only get drunk at home.  And if you know your history, you'll remember that the US did try banning alcohol once, and it didn't work.

I could - and have, elsewhere - likewise point out that most "gun violence" incidents really aren't gun-related, they're people wanting to kill other people related.  There are numerous incidents of people killing other people (sometimes in large numbers) with no guns involved.

Mr. Minsc

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Re: Let's ban nightclubs...
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2013, 10:41:13 AM »
No, I would not ban nightclubs.  This is from a person who has decided there are far better ways to spend ones money than at a nightclub.

On the topic of fires, they can happen in any building.

Now, the topic of alcohol.  Lets look at recent history.  Prohibition was attempted and failed.  Just because alcohol was banned doesn't mean people stopped drinking it.  Liquor just went underground.  The same would happen with nightclubs.  Being unregulated safety would be an even bigger concern.