Author Topic: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate  (Read 739997 times)

desertadapted

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #850 on: March 02, 2016, 08:15:58 AM »
GuitarStv, the point I made is that determining whether someone was "doing what was right" is hard -- and not one that I think a court (which would likely decide the issue) can readily make.  See again my comment about Manning as distinct from Snowden.  Consider also the Rosenbergs.  Or Jonathan Pollard.  Publicly disclosing national security secrets should  be rare -- a step taken with great trepidation.

Further, there hasn't been a monolithic response to the Snowden leaks.  The executive branch is doing what it should.  The House passed a bill meant to stop bulk collection of phone metadata.  Snowden's leaks had effects on the renewal of the Patriot Act.  He kick started a debate throughout government.  But I can't get exercised about the national security apparatus wanting to keep secrets (I believe you referred to them as "minor operations").  I guess my question would be, would you actively encourage members of our national security establishment to disclose top secret information any time in their judgment they felt it contributed  "protecting the freedoms of the people of this nation."  And then who would get to decide if they were right?  I obviously cannot convince anyone who doesn't believe in the concept of secrets in the service of national security.  But if you start from the premise that they exist, the standard you're proposing to employ is a bit diffuse.   

Jack - Unconstitutional Wiretapping.  I get that you are saying that, but thus far the vast majority of courts (barring all but one that I'm aware of, USDJ Leon) have disagreed.  I understand you disagree with those courts, or find them illegitimate in some way.  But that's the thing about our system -- they're the ones who get to decide, right or wrong.  Maybe one day they will agree with you and strike the NSA phone surveillance program down. 

As for the oath, fine.  I've taken the same one and have a different view.  But he's clearly violated the law.

arebelspy

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #851 on: March 02, 2016, 08:20:51 AM »
I was going to post the same thing, Jack.  His oath was to defend the constitution, and he did that.  To say nothing would be violating his oath, which is what all his superiors and colleagues were doing.

The man is, flat out, a hero.  He should be pardoned and given a parade.

I suspect that the recognition of the positive effects of Snowden's leak will be expressed in his sentence (which I expect to be lower, but probably not far lower, than Bradley Manning's).

He will never get a sentence, because he will never get a fair trial.

He even said recently he'd come back for a trial if he was allowed a fair one, in which he could argue that he was whistleblowing as a defense.

He said:
Quote
I've told the government I would return if they would guarantee a fair trial where I can make a public interest defense of why this was done and allow a jury to decide.

The last person charged as he is was prevented from even using the word "whistle blower" in court.  That's hardly a fair trial.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/nsa/270216-snowden-would-return-to-us-if-government-guarantees-fair-trial

It's sad that he's being persecuted, when he acted in the best interests of this country, which is supposed to serve the people.
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Jack

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #852 on: March 02, 2016, 08:22:50 AM »
Jack - Unconstitutional Wiretapping.  I get that you are saying that, but thus far the vast majority of courts (barring all but one that I'm aware of, USDJ Leon) have disagreed.  I understand you disagree with those courts, or find them illegitimate in some way.  But that's the thing about our system -- they're the ones who get to decide, right or wrong.  Maybe one day they will agree with you and strike the NSA phone surveillance program down. 

As for the oath, fine.  I've taken the same one and have a different view.  But he's clearly violated the law.

Yes, between that and the rise of Trump, it's clear that the majority of Americans (especially ones who get to nominate and confirm judges) have a hard-on for tyranny.

brooklynguy

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #853 on: March 02, 2016, 08:38:29 AM »
I remain optimistic about the future of the world, long term.

I remain a realistic person, as well.  I do think there may be some short term pain.

The success of Trump's candidacy is seriously, honestly causing me to lose hope about the long-term future of the world.  Again, the parallels being drawn between the content of Trump's rhetoric and modern society's greatest atrocities are not hyperbolic.  Yet in spite of that, or because of that, his campaign is finding wild success among the population at large.  He's tapping into an ugliness of human society that is always there--when not openly on display on the surface then hiding latent just below it--and making me doubt our ability to ever truly rise above it.  Civilization is hideously fragile, and once again we're starting to witness the removal of the varnish separating us from the horrors underneath.

GuitarStv

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #854 on: March 02, 2016, 08:47:13 AM »
GuitarStv, the point I made is that determining whether someone was "doing what was right" is hard -- and not one that I think a court (which would likely decide the issue) can readily make.

You have courts not to determine if something is right, but to determine if it is legal.  You make laws to define what's right.

The justice system in a fair trial should therefore make the decision regarding legality.  If Snowden's actions are deemed illegal, then people should petition politicians to fix obviously flawed laws.


I guess my question would be, would you actively encourage members of our national security establishment to disclose top secret information any time in their judgment they felt it contributed  "protecting the freedoms of the people of this nation."

Yes.  With the caveat that as much as possible, risks and harm to others is minimized in that disclosure.

If you answer that question 'no' then there can never be checks and balances on national security.  Anything they say would have to be accepted out of hand for national security reasons.  These are people who have already proven that they are willing to lie to those in charge of supervising them.  Their actions have proven them undeserving of the level of trust you're asking for.


And then who would get to decide if they were right?

As I indicated above, the courts would determine if actions taken were legal.  If the laws allow unjust behaviour, then the need to be changed.


I obviously cannot convince anyone who doesn't believe in the concept of secrets in the service of national security.  But if you start from the premise that they exist, the standard you're proposing to employ is a bit diffuse.

I do believe in the concept of secrets in service of national security.  I don't believe that you get to should 'national security' and use it as a shield to take away the rights of others without cause.  That appears to be where we differ on the matter.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #855 on: March 02, 2016, 10:06:51 AM »
Serious question for Americans that I've never understood . . . why isn't Snowden a revered hero?

He stood up for what he believed in, and exposed that people in power were abusing that power and lying about it.  In return he was vilified, driven out of the country, and worst of all nobody even cared about the stuff he revealed.  Certainly there has been little to no real change implemented to prevent or stop the problems he exposed.

I admire his bravery; and respect his rebellion against what he saw as a violation of the American public.  I don't feel free to voice that opinion too openly as the gov't has done an excellent job of vilifying the man; and my husband is Active Duty.

arebelspy

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #856 on: March 02, 2016, 10:10:48 AM »
I remain optimistic about the future of the world, long term.

I remain a realistic person, as well.  I do think there may be some short term pain.

The success of Trump's candidacy is seriously, honestly causing me to lose hope about the long-term future of the world.  Again, the parallels being drawn between the content of Trump's rhetoric and modern society's greatest atrocities are not hyperbolic.  Yet in spite of that, or because of that, his campaign is finding wild success among the population at large.  He's tapping into an ugliness of human society that is always there--when not openly on display on the surface then hiding latent just below it--and making me doubt our ability to ever truly rise above it.  Civilization is hideously fragile, and once again we're starting to witness the removal of the varnish separating us from the horrors underneath.

Everything's cyclical.  Plato says in The Republic that democracy falls to a tyrant.  I've thought for about 12 years that this would happen in my lifetime.

Your long-term may be different than mine.  I think we'll be fine over the next few centuries and millennia. But there may be short-term pain.
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Cathy

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #857 on: March 02, 2016, 10:33:00 AM »
The success of Trump's candidacy is seriously, honestly causing me to lose hope about the long-term future of the world.  Again, the parallels being drawn between the content of Trump's rhetoric and modern society's greatest atrocities are not hyperbolic. ...

This is basically one of the strongest arguments for a government with limited, narrowly-drawn responsibilities and a minor role in society. If power is distributed throughout the country or other polity, rather than concentrated in the state (i.e. by allowing people to conduct their own affairs and form their own relationships according to agreed terms without government involvement), then a potential extreme leader is less of a threat to the social order. (I express no view on Trump or any other candidate in particular.)

Whenever we are faced with a societal ill, it is tempting to think that it can be easily solved by just giving the state more power, but we have to consider the risks of doing so.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 10:34:40 AM by Cathy »

Yaeger

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #858 on: March 02, 2016, 10:40:50 AM »
I hate Trump, I think he's a liar, a fool, and he'll say anything to get elected. The people that vote for him are doing so because they see no other candidate identify with their values. This is a crisis with both parties really, you go extreme or you go home.

I also think this a result of the Republican party splintering into the major groups. The conservatives, and the right, and libertarian. No one believes that the Republican party is upholding its values of limited government and negative rights yet people don't want cuts to 'their' benefits. /boggle

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, but I'm more likely to vote Trump than Hillary or Bernie. At least with Trump I'm taking a chance to shrink government and at least he's somewhat knowledgeable about the economy.

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #859 on: March 02, 2016, 12:02:03 PM »
I hate Trump, I think he's a liar, a fool, and he'll say anything to get elected. The people that vote for him are doing so because they see no other candidate identify with their values. This is a crisis with both parties really, you go extreme or you go home.

I also think this a result of the Republican party splintering into the major groups. The conservatives, and the right, and libertarian. No one believes that the Republican party is upholding its values of limited government and negative rights yet people don't want cuts to 'their' benefits. /boggle

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, but I'm more likely to vote Trump than Hillary or Bernie. At least with Trump I'm taking a chance to shrink government and at least he's somewhat knowledgeable about the economy.

I honestly fail to see how one would imagine that a person like Trump, who is all about ego, control, and displays of power, would EVER shrink government while he is in charge of it, in spite of what he might say to the contrary to win votes. 

randymarsh

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #860 on: March 02, 2016, 12:07:22 PM »
At least with Trump I'm taking a chance to shrink government and at least he's somewhat knowledgeable about the economy.

I suspect the parts of government he wants to shrink are probably the parts we need. I haven't heard him lay out any specifics though. If he wants to slash defense spending then that's something I can get behind.

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #861 on: March 02, 2016, 12:11:03 PM »


The success of Trump's candidacy is seriously, honestly causing me to lose hope about the long-term future of the world.  Again, the parallels being drawn between the content of Trump's rhetoric and modern society's greatest atrocities are not hyperbolic.  Yet in spite of that, or because of that, his campaign is finding wild success among the population at large.  He's tapping into an ugliness of human society that is always there--when not openly on display on the surface then hiding latent just below it--and making me doubt our ability to ever truly rise above it.  Civilization is hideously fragile, and once again we're starting to witness the removal of the varnish separating us from the horrors underneath.

I agree.  And in terms of the short- and medium-term security of our nation, as well. 

I think this opinion piece sums up some worries I've been mulling over for the last couple of weeks. 

https://www.lawfareblog.com/trump-national-security-threat

This is why I cannot understand people who loathe Hillary Clinton so much they would vote for Trump.

zoltani

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #862 on: March 02, 2016, 12:14:22 PM »
One thing I do not like at all regarding Trump and the other GOP candidates is the their proposal to hand federal land over to state control. This would be a disaster. Our state can barely keep the state parks funded, how would they do with giant swaths of land? The land would likely just be sold off and our public lands would suddenly see no trespassing signs everywhere. As an avid hiker and climber this would be horrible.

Yaeger

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #863 on: March 02, 2016, 12:21:25 PM »
At least with Trump I'm taking a chance to shrink government and at least he's somewhat knowledgeable about the economy.

I suspect the parts of government he wants to shrink are probably the parts we need. I haven't heard him lay out any specifics though. If he wants to slash defense spending then that's something I can get behind.

Defense is only the only things the Constitution expressly tells the government it can do, but I'd accept cuts as long we made equal cuts to domestic spending programs. I'm probably in the minority that wants huge spending cuts. Hell, I've paid into Social Security for 15 years now, but I'd gladly give up my earned future benefits to opt out of that train-wreck. Same with Medicare.

Gin1984

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #864 on: March 02, 2016, 12:38:54 PM »
I hate Trump, I think he's a liar, a fool, and he'll say anything to get elected. The people that vote for him are doing so because they see no other candidate identify with their values. This is a crisis with both parties really, you go extreme or you go home.

I also think this a result of the Republican party splintering into the major groups. The conservatives, and the right, and libertarian. No one believes that the Republican party is upholding its values of limited government and negative rights yet people don't want cuts to 'their' benefits. /boggle

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, but I'm more likely to vote Trump than Hillary or Bernie. At least with Trump I'm taking a chance to shrink government and at least he's somewhat knowledgeable about the economy.
Not really
" It's interesting how many holes are in his economic plan since he has a degree in Economics from Wharton. You would think he would have a more sophisticated plan.

He plans to eliminate all income tax from about 1/2 the people in the US and then lower/simplify the brackets after that. This would give lower income folks more $$$ and increase consumer spending, especially as the multiplier effect is the strongest for lower income folks who don't save much/any.

He wants to cap all company taxes at 15%, regardless of size. He expects this to bring businesses back to the US from foreign locations. The idea being that 15% is a lower percentage, but if they are in the US at least we can tax them, and we can't tax some at all now as it is, so 15% is better than nothing.
That's very Supply Side economic theory.

He seems to think we have the 'worst' (I assume he means highest) corporate tax rate in the world, but that is misleading. Yes, our top marginal rate is the 3rd highest, but the effective rate is one of the lowest in the Industrialized world. He says he wants to close the loopholes, but lower the overall rate to 15%. Even if that worked, most US corporations are paying around 14% effective tax rate now---so how is that different? (other than putting all the Accountants out of a job).

He wants to have a Tax Holiday of 10% so corporations will repatriate the profits they are hiding overseas. The idea being that a short-term period where taxes are extra low will result in US based multi-national corporations bringing their cash back to the US, paying the low tax, and then using that money to invest in US based jobs. Except we did that once before---in 2004---and none of that happened.

As for Immigration: He talks about the number of illegal immigrants and how they 'take' benefits, but he doesn't talk about the number of jobs they work or the GDP they produce. Many illegal immigrants work low-skill positions, but still product goods/services. They also use their wages to consumer products like any other person. That consumer spending drives GDP as well.

He talks about 11 million jobs opening up for Americans when he deports all the illegals, but he forgets that most Americans don't want those low income jobs. The US economy is almost at full employment (meaning most of the people who want a job have one), so where exactly does he think these 11 million people are going to come from to take these jobs that are currently held by illegal immigrants?

Foreign Trade:
He threatens import tariffs on foreign produced goods, but neglects to remember that other nations will do the same to us----perhaps Wharton doesn't teach the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Bill of 1930? If we put a tax on imports, other nations will tax our exports. Considering US exports have been falling anyway (as our goods are more expensive because of the exchange rate) and having our partners add a tax would kill our exports. That would hurt the very American jobs he claims he's trying to help.

Also, since a lot of our imports are raw materials or unfinished goods, an tax on imports will drive up the cost of raw materials for goods made or finished in the US. Import tariffs drive up the cost of foreign goods to American consumers---in the end, the consumer pays the higher price, either through an already expensive American product or by purchasing a tax-inflated price for a foreign good. Cheap imports help American consumers.

Unemployment---I don't think he even knows how it's calculated, because his own website refers to the 92 million Americans who are 'outside' the work force. It's part of his plan to make companies hire Americans first instead of hiring foreign workers through H1-B visas. He makes it wound like there are 92 million Americans waiting around for a job---when that is ridiculously untrue. That number includes all people in the US who aren't working---not the number who want a job but don't have one. He is counting Not In Labor Force people (retired, SAHP, full-time students, etc) as if they can't get a job because of foreign workers. Blatantly mis-leading.

He also wants to force companies to 'pause' to hire from domestic work force instead of issuing green cards---except he's assuming the current group of immigrants or US citizens has the skill set needed. Our dept hired a new Professor not long ago. This requires a PhD in Economics. At least 75% of the applicants were foreign-born because US students don't get PhD in Economics anymore (mostly because they can't do the math). Who am I supposed to hire if there aren't any Americans?? He seems to think all 'immigrants' have the same job skills and are interchangeable.

He also states that this 'pause' will force companies to hire women and stop the 'Plummeting" female labor force participation rate. Also, complete BS, because the Female Labor Force participation rate has been relatively steady since the 1990's. (LFPR is the percentage of adult women who choose to join the labor force as opposed to being retired or a SAHP. It's different from the unemployment rate). You would think he would know this, but it seems he missed my class on Gender Economics."-quote from economics professor.

MDM

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #865 on: March 02, 2016, 01:25:17 PM »
The usual path of presidential nominees is to pander toward their base to get the nomination, then "modify" their positions to appeal to more of the country in the general election.

Not that we should believe everything either Clinton or Trump has said or will say once nominated, but at least some of what they say will likely be true and it will be interesting to see how they modify their respective positions in the months ahead.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 03:51:01 AM by MDM »

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #866 on: March 02, 2016, 01:31:52 PM »
The usual path of presidential nominees is to pander toward their base to get the nomination, then "modify" their positions to appear to more of the country in the general election.

Not that we should believe everything either Clinton or Trump has said or will say once nominated, but at least some of what they say will likely be true and it will be interesting to see how they modify their respective positions in the months ahead.

That's true. But in the case of Trump, what he *has* said is ridiculously vague and overblown promises, with no actual policies or concrete details.  That, and horribly inflammatorily, racist, sexist, insulting, hyper nationalistic ranting.  So, with him, anyone who isn't a right-wing extremist but still would vote for him in certain cases is banking on a complete unknown, policy-wise, and a complete unknown in terms of how, or if, he will modify his extremist ranting.  Again, I just can't figure out why someone with any sense at all would choose him.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #867 on: March 02, 2016, 01:54:39 PM »
I hate Trump, I think he's a liar, a fool, and he'll say anything to get elected. The people that vote for him are doing so because they see no other candidate identify with their values. This is a crisis with both parties really, you go extreme or you go home.

I also think this a result of the Republican party splintering into the major groups. The conservatives, and the right, and libertarian. No one believes that the Republican party is upholding its values of limited government and negative rights yet people don't want cuts to 'their' benefits. /boggle

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, but I'm more likely to vote Trump than Hillary or Bernie. At least with Trump I'm taking a chance to shrink government and at least he's somewhat knowledgeable about the economy.
Not really
" It's interesting how many holes are in his economic plan since he has a degree in Economics from Wharton. You would think he would have a more sophisticated plan.

He plans to eliminate all income tax from about 1/2 the people in the US and then lower/simplify the brackets after that. This would give lower income folks more $$$ and increase consumer spending, especially as the multiplier effect is the strongest for lower income folks who don't save much/any.

He wants to cap all company taxes at 15%, regardless of size. He expects this to bring businesses back to the US from foreign locations. The idea being that 15% is a lower percentage, but if they are in the US at least we can tax them, and we can't tax some at all now as it is, so 15% is better than nothing.
That's very Supply Side economic theory.

He seems to think we have the 'worst' (I assume he means highest) corporate tax rate in the world, but that is misleading. Yes, our top marginal rate is the 3rd highest, but the effective rate is one of the lowest in the Industrialized world. He says he wants to close the loopholes, but lower the overall rate to 15%. Even if that worked, most US corporations are paying around 14% effective tax rate now---so how is that different? (other than putting all the Accountants out of a job).

He wants to have a Tax Holiday of 10% so corporations will repatriate the profits they are hiding overseas. The idea being that a short-term period where taxes are extra low will result in US based multi-national corporations bringing their cash back to the US, paying the low tax, and then using that money to invest in US based jobs. Except we did that once before---in 2004---and none of that happened.

As for Immigration: He talks about the number of illegal immigrants and how they 'take' benefits, but he doesn't talk about the number of jobs they work or the GDP they produce. Many illegal immigrants work low-skill positions, but still product goods/services. They also use their wages to consumer products like any other person. That consumer spending drives GDP as well.

He talks about 11 million jobs opening up for Americans when he deports all the illegals, but he forgets that most Americans don't want those low income jobs. The US economy is almost at full employment (meaning most of the people who want a job have one), so where exactly does he think these 11 million people are going to come from to take these jobs that are currently held by illegal immigrants?

Foreign Trade:
He threatens import tariffs on foreign produced goods, but neglects to remember that other nations will do the same to us----perhaps Wharton doesn't teach the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Bill of 1930? If we put a tax on imports, other nations will tax our exports. Considering US exports have been falling anyway (as our goods are more expensive because of the exchange rate) and having our partners add a tax would kill our exports. That would hurt the very American jobs he claims he's trying to help.

Also, since a lot of our imports are raw materials or unfinished goods, an tax on imports will drive up the cost of raw materials for goods made or finished in the US. Import tariffs drive up the cost of foreign goods to American consumers---in the end, the consumer pays the higher price, either through an already expensive American product or by purchasing a tax-inflated price for a foreign good. Cheap imports help American consumers.

Unemployment---I don't think he even knows how it's calculated, because his own website refers to the 92 million Americans who are 'outside' the work force. It's part of his plan to make companies hire Americans first instead of hiring foreign workers through H1-B visas. He makes it wound like there are 92 million Americans waiting around for a job---when that is ridiculously untrue. That number includes all people in the US who aren't working---not the number who want a job but don't have one. He is counting Not In Labor Force people (retired, SAHP, full-time students, etc) as if they can't get a job because of foreign workers. Blatantly mis-leading.

He also wants to force companies to 'pause' to hire from domestic work force instead of issuing green cards---except he's assuming the current group of immigrants or US citizens has the skill set needed. Our dept hired a new Professor not long ago. This requires a PhD in Economics. At least 75% of the applicants were foreign-born because US students don't get PhD in Economics anymore (mostly because they can't do the math). Who am I supposed to hire if there aren't any Americans?? He seems to think all 'immigrants' have the same job skills and are interchangeable.

He also states that this 'pause' will force companies to hire women and stop the 'Plummeting" female labor force participation rate. Also, complete BS, because the Female Labor Force participation rate has been relatively steady since the 1990's. (LFPR is the percentage of adult women who choose to join the labor force as opposed to being retired or a SAHP. It's different from the unemployment rate). You would think he would know this, but it seems he missed my class on Gender Economics."-quote from economics professor.
I don't agree with a lot of your reasons, I have a separate reason that I don't want a Trump pres,
To summarize Trumps plan,
1. He wants a trade reform with China, which I think will hurt both the United States and China's economies
2. His tax plan will reduce the highest tax bracket to 25%, and reduce corporate tax to a maximum of 15%. He also wants to let companies repatriate their corporate cash to the U.S. for a mere 10% tax rate and end the deferral of taxes on corporate income earned abroad. I think with this plan, we might get a decent bump from the repatriation of funds to the U.S. initially, but after that we will not be able to have enough tax revenue to sustain, and the debt we currently have will look small in comparison to how high it would go. We would probably have to make a big change quickly to try and recover/fix this horrible mistake, and it probably wouldn't go over well.
3. He wants to build a monstrous wall and claims Mexico will pay for it, I think it would be a horrible idea to get Mexico to pay for this wall(assuming they even would), their economy would take a huge hit and it would directly effect the United States economy. Trump also wants to triple the number of ICE officers. He also wants to deport over 11 million people living in the United States. All of the ways he plans on deporting them will be very expensive and hurt the U.S. Economy more. His entire immigration plan will be VERY expensive.

He wants to greatly increase spending while dramatically decreasing tax revenue and causing trade issues with China. I think this would destroy the US economy.

I don't know enough about Sanders to make a complete summary of his entire plan, however I know he wants to allow free public college and a single payer health care plan. This will increase spending dramatically, which in general I think is a bad thing. The one advantage he has over Trump, is that he wants to increase tax revenue to help accommodate his increased spending. I still think these are the 2 worst candidates for president, but Trump being the absolute worst.

I think it would be great to have a president belonging to the Libertarian Party, I've recently read their platform and agree with every piece of it. I know that sadly we need some non-libertarian programs because many Americans can't provide for themselves(not to make fun of them, some of them have legitimate reasons), but I think going more towards the principles laid out in their platform would be the best step for USA to take.
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Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #868 on: March 02, 2016, 01:58:11 PM »
The usual path of presidential nominees is to pander toward their base to get the nomination, then "modify" their positions to appear to more of the country in the general election.

Not that we should believe everything either Clinton or Trump has said or will say once nominated, but at least some of what they say will likely be true and it will be interesting to see how they modify their respective positions in the months ahead.

That's true. But in the case of Trump, what he *has* said is ridiculously vague and overblown promises, with no actual policies or concrete details.  That, and horribly inflammatorily, racist, sexist, insulting, hyper nationalistic ranting.  So, with him, anyone who isn't a right-wing extremist but still would vote for him in certain cases is banking on a complete unknown, policy-wise, and a complete unknown in terms of how, or if, he will modify his extremist ranting.  Again, I just can't figure out why someone with any sense at all would choose him.
Trump has policies that can be found here,
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions
some of them might not be as descriptive as others

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #869 on: March 02, 2016, 02:01:09 PM »
The usual path of presidential nominees is to pander toward their base to get the nomination, then "modify" their positions to appear to more of the country in the general election.

Not that we should believe everything either Clinton or Trump has said or will say once nominated, but at least some of what they say will likely be true and it will be interesting to see how they modify their respective positions in the months ahead.

That's true. But in the case of Trump, what he *has* said is ridiculously vague and overblown promises, with no actual policies or concrete details.  That, and horribly inflammatorily, racist, sexist, insulting, hyper nationalistic ranting.  So, with him, anyone who isn't a right-wing extremist but still would vote for him in certain cases is banking on a complete unknown, policy-wise, and a complete unknown in terms of how, or if, he will modify his extremist ranting.  Again, I just can't figure out why someone with any sense at all would choose him.
Trump has policies that can be found here,
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions
some of them might not be as descriptive as others

I have to tell you, reading that site, I get the distinct impression that it was (obviously) written by someone else, but also that Trump himself wouldn't be able to tell you what is on it beyond the vague generalities that he says in his stump speeches.  I bet if you gave him a pop quiz on those policies, he would get a failing grade.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #870 on: March 02, 2016, 02:12:42 PM »
I don't know enough about Sanders to make a complete summary of his entire plan, however I know he wants to allow free public college and a single payer health care plan. This will increase spending dramatically, which in general I think is a bad thing.

Sanders' single payer healthcare plan would result in a net savings (in terms of total public and private healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP). Taxes would go up to pay for it, but the fact that insurance premiums would drop to zero would more than cancel out the increase. (The net cost would be negative instead of zero because the entire insurance industry, and all the overhead and inefficiency it creates, would be destroyed.) Government "spending" would increase only in the sense that healthcare spending would be accounted for on the government's books instead of private industry's.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #871 on: March 02, 2016, 02:25:00 PM »
I don't know enough about Sanders to make a complete summary of his entire plan, however I know he wants to allow free public college and a single payer health care plan. This will increase spending dramatically, which in general I think is a bad thing.

Sanders' single payer healthcare plan would result in a net savings (in terms of total public and private healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP). Taxes would go up to pay for it, but the fact that insurance premiums would drop to zero would more than cancel out the increase. (The net cost would be negative instead of zero because the entire insurance industry, and all the overhead and inefficiency it creates, would be destroyed.) Government "spending" would increase only in the sense that healthcare spending would be accounted for on the government's books instead of private industry's.

Sanders is batshit crazy. Nothing he proposes makes any sense. Even liberal economists mock his spending plans.

"You can't just continue growth for the sake of growth in a world in which we are struggling with climate change and all kinds of environmental problems. All right? You don't necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country. I don't think the media appreciates the kind of stress that ordinary Americans are working on."

That's a quote from Sanders that really took me back.  Wow.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #872 on: March 02, 2016, 02:30:49 PM »
I don't know enough about Sanders to make a complete summary of his entire plan, however I know he wants to allow free public college and a single payer health care plan. This will increase spending dramatically, which in general I think is a bad thing.

Sanders' single payer healthcare plan would result in a net savings (in terms of total public and private healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP). Taxes would go up to pay for it, but the fact that insurance premiums would drop to zero would more than cancel out the increase. (The net cost would be negative instead of zero because the entire insurance industry, and all the overhead and inefficiency it creates, would be destroyed.) Government "spending" would increase only in the sense that healthcare spending would be accounted for on the government's books instead of private industry's.
I was actually copy pasting that from one of my previous posts, I thought I just had a Trump summary there, but it seems I had more on the end of it, I know more about Sanders plans now and I don't like the way he will be funding them. One of the ways he plans on raising money to pay for it is by taxing dividends and capital gains at normal income, which I'm against. As far as it being a net savings, that is debated as well. None of this really matters though as it would take a miracle for Sanders to get the democratic nomination, a miracle I'm not hoping for.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #873 on: March 02, 2016, 02:31:48 PM »
I don't know enough about Sanders to make a complete summary of his entire plan, however I know he wants to allow free public college and a single payer health care plan. This will increase spending dramatically, which in general I think is a bad thing.

Sanders' single payer healthcare plan would result in a net savings (in terms of total public and private healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP). Taxes would go up to pay for it, but the fact that insurance premiums would drop to zero would more than cancel out the increase. (The net cost would be negative instead of zero because the entire insurance industry, and all the overhead and inefficiency it creates, would be destroyed.) Government "spending" would increase only in the sense that healthcare spending would be accounted for on the government's books instead of private industry's.

Sanders is batshit crazy. Nothing he proposes makes any sense. Even liberal economists mock his spending plans.

"You can't just continue growth for the sake of growth in a world in which we are struggling with climate change and all kinds of environmental problems. All right? You don't necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country. I don't think the media appreciates the kind of stress that ordinary Americans are working on."

That's a quote from Sanders that really took me back.  Wow.

Ad-hominem all you want, but until you actually cite something that claims healthcare spending relative to GDP would increase under his plan you're still wrong.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #874 on: March 02, 2016, 02:33:07 PM »
The usual path of presidential nominees is to pander toward their base to get the nomination, then "modify" their positions to appear to more of the country in the general election.

Not that we should believe everything either Clinton or Trump has said or will say once nominated, but at least some of what they say will likely be true and it will be interesting to see how they modify their respective positions in the months ahead.

That's true. But in the case of Trump, what he *has* said is ridiculously vague and overblown promises, with no actual policies or concrete details.  That, and horribly inflammatorily, racist, sexist, insulting, hyper nationalistic ranting.  So, with him, anyone who isn't a right-wing extremist but still would vote for him in certain cases is banking on a complete unknown, policy-wise, and a complete unknown in terms of how, or if, he will modify his extremist ranting.  Again, I just can't figure out why someone with any sense at all would choose him.
Trump has policies that can be found here,
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions
some of them might not be as descriptive as others

I have to tell you, reading that site, I get the distinct impression that it was (obviously) written by someone else, but also that Trump himself wouldn't be able to tell you what is on it beyond the vague generalities that he says in his stump speeches.  I bet if you gave him a pop quiz on those policies, he would get a failing grade.
I'm guessing someone else wrote it too, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's learned enough while training for the debates that he would maybe get a D on the quiz.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #875 on: March 02, 2016, 02:33:49 PM »
I don't know enough about Sanders to make a complete summary of his entire plan, however I know he wants to allow free public college and a single payer health care plan. This will increase spending dramatically, which in general I think is a bad thing.

Sanders' single payer healthcare plan would result in a net savings (in terms of total public and private healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP). Taxes would go up to pay for it, but the fact that insurance premiums would drop to zero would more than cancel out the increase. (The net cost would be negative instead of zero because the entire insurance industry, and all the overhead and inefficiency it creates, would be destroyed.) Government "spending" would increase only in the sense that healthcare spending would be accounted for on the government's books instead of private industry's.

Sanders is batshit crazy. Nothing he proposes makes any sense. Even liberal economists mock his spending plans.

"You can't just continue growth for the sake of growth in a world in which we are struggling with climate change and all kinds of environmental problems. All right? You don't necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country. I don't think the media appreciates the kind of stress that ordinary Americans are working on."

That's a quote from Sanders that really took me back.  Wow.

What part of that quote, specifically, "took you back"?
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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #876 on: March 02, 2016, 02:49:34 PM »
...banking on a complete unknown, policy-wise, and a complete unknown in terms of how, or if, he will modify his extremist ranting.
That's a fair statement regarding Trump, so we agree on that.  Go back 8 years and it seems a reasonably accurate portrayal of Obama also....

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #877 on: March 02, 2016, 02:51:31 PM »
Sanders is batshit crazy. Nothing he proposes makes any sense. Even liberal economists mock his spending plans.

"You can't just continue growth for the sake of growth in a world in which we are struggling with climate change and all kinds of environmental problems. All right? You don't necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country. I don't think the media appreciates the kind of stress that ordinary Americans are working on."

That's a quote from Sanders that really took me back.  Wow.
What part of that quote, specifically, "took you back"?

Two things actually.

"You can't just continue growth for the sake of growth in a world in which we are struggling with climate change and all kinds of environmental problems."

It assumes that growth is bad. In fact, the opposite is true. We require growth to innovate, to bring people out of poverty, to inspire free trade. Growth provides jobs, income, opportunities. Times are good in America when the economy is growing. What he's implying is sacrificing growth, prosperity, for environmentalism. This contradicts his next statement below.

"You don't necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country."

He falsely compares the wealth of choices for the consumer as a conscious move away from goods like food for children (cheap shot using starving children to push your weak argument, but whatever). Economically, you can absolutely have both. Abundance is the highest in free trade market systems. What he's arguing for is a system where we cut efficiency in favor of a more equitable solution, Communist style. You don't need two choices of toilet paper, so we're going to kill competition and deliver one, more costly product, to the shelves. However, market competition actually lowers product prices and maximizes the social use of capital and resources. Buying one of those 18 pairs of sneakers is cheaper with 18 on the market, than buying one pair of sneakers with 2 on the market. You have more money to spend on combating child hunger because the family buying shoes has more money leftover to buy food.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #878 on: March 02, 2016, 02:54:48 PM »
What part of that quote, specifically, "took you back"?

Two things actually.

"You can't just continue growth for the sake of growth in a world in which we are struggling with climate change and all kinds of environmental problems."

It assumes that growth is bad. In fact, the opposite is true. We require growth to innovate, to bring people out of poverty, to inspire free trade. Growth provides jobs, income, opportunities. Times are good in America when the economy is growing. What he's implying is sacrificing growth, prosperity, for environmentalism. This contradicts his next statement below.

"You don't necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country."

He falsely compares the wealth of choices for the consumer as a conscious move away from goods like food for children (cheap shot using starving children to push your weak argument, but whatever). Economically, you can absolutely have both. Abundance is the highest in free trade market systems. What he's arguing for is a system where we cut efficiency in favor of a more equitable solution, Communist style. You don't need two choices of toilet paper, so we're going to kill competition and deliver one, more costly product, to the shelves. However, market competition actually lowers product prices and maximizes the social use of capital and resources. Buying one of those 18 pairs of sneakers is cheaper with 18 on the market, than buying one pair of sneakers with 2 on the market. You have more money to spend on combating child hunger because the family buying shoes has more money leftover to buy food.

So what does any of that have to do with feeling nostalgic? Or did you mean to say that you were "taken aback," but used the wrong idiom?

Yaeger

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #879 on: March 02, 2016, 02:57:13 PM »
So what does any of that have to do with feeling nostalgic? Or did you mean to say that you were "taken aback," but used the wrong idiom?

Yeah, I missed the "a". I suck.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #880 on: March 02, 2016, 03:08:01 PM »
I suck.

Thread over; we've reached a consensus!

(Just kidding.)

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to cite a source refuting the claim that single-payer would reduce healthcare spending as a fraction of GDP.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #881 on: March 02, 2016, 03:25:53 PM »
There is no shortage of food production in the USA.  Hell, we turn good corn into gasoline at ridiculous expense which ends up clogging the lines in small engines.

Food distribution might be at issue, but we don't really need to divert 22 of the 23 deodorant lines into making food.

What we need is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzspsovNvII

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #882 on: March 02, 2016, 03:42:18 PM »
I hate Trump, I think he's a liar, a fool, and he'll say anything to get elected. The people that vote for him are doing so because they see no other candidate identify with their values. This is a crisis with both parties really, you go extreme or you go home.

I also think this a result of the Republican party splintering into the major groups. The conservatives, and the right, and libertarian. No one believes that the Republican party is upholding its values of limited government and negative rights yet people don't want cuts to 'their' benefits. /boggle

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, but I'm more likely to vote Trump than Hillary or Bernie. At least with Trump I'm taking a chance to shrink government and at least he's somewhat knowledgeable about the economy.

I honestly fail to see how one would imagine that a person like Trump, who is all about ego, control, and displays of power, would EVER shrink government while he is in charge of it, in spite of what he might say to the contrary to win votes.

Actually his generally vague policies would balloon the government and bloat the national debt even further. In terms of defense, starting a ground war in Syria certainly would not shrink the defense budget.

"I'm the most militaristic person on your show. I want to have a much stronger military. I want it to be so strong that nobody is going to mess with us." - Trump

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Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #884 on: March 02, 2016, 04:50:55 PM »
The success of Drumpf's candidacy is seriously, honestly causing me to lose hope about the long-term future of the world.  Again, the parallels being drawn between the content of Drumpf's rhetoric and modern society's greatest atrocities are not hyperbolic.  Yet in spite of that, or because of that, his campaign is finding wild success among the population at large.  He's tapping into an ugliness of human society that is always there--when not openly on display on the surface then hiding latent just below it--and making me doubt our ability to ever truly rise above it.  Civilization is hideously fragile, and once again we're starting to witness the removal of the varnish separating us from the horrors underneath.

It's a sign of our utter failure to educate our population. It makes me sad.

There are many reasons why we find ourselves with an under-educated population, but in the end, it's clear that approximately half of our citizens have not been taught history, critical thinking, political philosophy, economics or hell, probably even basic math and English.*

:(.

The Republican national committee must be envying the whole superdelegate component of the DNC right now.

edit: actually - I think the people who've been robbed of a rigorous education have been taught history. It's just that the history they've learned is nationalistic and based on propaganda.  That's common in elementary and middle school. It's not until high school and college where you start to question whether the propaganda employed after the Boston tea party, for example, was justified. Enter critical thinking skills.

edit 2: * add - financial literacy.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 04:56:15 PM by Malaysia41 »

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #885 on: March 02, 2016, 04:51:22 PM »
So it seems the delegates after Super Tuesday are as follows(not counting superdelegates),
Clinton - 1099
Sanders - 745

Trump - 556
Cruz - 435
Rubio - 204
Kasich - 44

The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #886 on: March 02, 2016, 04:53:25 PM »
With Clinton being over 350 delegates above Sanders, Sanders best states behind him, and superdelegates in the mix.
Sanders chance is dwindling away fast.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #887 on: March 02, 2016, 04:55:20 PM »
By the way, I'm still waiting for you to cite a source refuting the claim that single-payer would reduce healthcare spending as a fraction of GDP.

I honestly don't know. I don't think anyone does. Even left-leaning economists question his plan. What we have now is broken. We have two solutions to reduce costs: go to a private healthcare system (best cost, efficient option), go to national healthcare (more costly, more equitable). My opposition to national healthcare is based primarily on Constitutional grounds, though of course I'd like the cheaper, more efficient private option for everyone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/16/us/politics/left-leaning-economists-question-cost-of-bernie-sanderss-plans.html?_r=0

Healthcare costs per capita have skyrocketed since the 1965's Great Society programs of Medicare and Medicaid. You see a slow rise in healthcare costs then it takes off once government healthcare expands in the 1970s. Government medical spending, regulation, and controls has been the primary driver to healthcare costs.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-breaks-from-the-pack/
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa211.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States#Overall_costs

beltim

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #888 on: March 02, 2016, 04:56:37 PM »
So it seems the delegates after Super Tuesday are as follows(not counting superdelegates),
Clinton - 1099
Sanders - 745

Trump - 556
Cruz - 435
Rubio - 204
Kasich - 44

The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

You're double counting the Super Tuesday results.  The actual numbers:
Clinton - 595
Sanders - 405
(need 2383 to win)

Trump - 319
Cruz - 226
Rubio - 110
Kasich - 25
(need 1237 to win)

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #889 on: March 02, 2016, 04:59:50 PM »
The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

Why is that?  I'm not sure the GOP can avoid a Trump nomination at this point.  Even if Cruz and Rubio were to team up on the same ticket, I think they'd lose to Trump.  The party is broken.

And Trump will get absolutely savaged in the general election.  America has never elected a President without any prior political experience.  It would be like nominating my three year old, a complete blank slate of unknown and unknowable opinions, but clearly backed by irrational temper tantrums.

Hillary will point out that she has a lifetime of political experience at the highest levels, has worked tirelessly for the same causes and ideals her entire career, and while she's accumulated some mistakes along the way she is still clearly a competent and experienced politician.  Trump is a reality tv star who has gone bankrupt four times.  He's openly racist and hateful.  I still believe in the American people enough to think that he has no chance at all.  I predict Hillary will take 400 electors.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #890 on: March 02, 2016, 05:00:04 PM »
So it seems the delegates after Super Tuesday are as follows(not counting superdelegates),
Clinton - 1099
Sanders - 745

Trump - 556
Cruz - 435
Rubio - 204
Kasich - 44

The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

You're double counting the Super Tuesday results.  The actual numbers:
Clinton - 595
Sanders - 405
(need 2383 to win)

Trump - 319
Cruz - 226
Rubio - 110
Kasich - 25
(need 1237 to win)

Hey now, don't forget Ben Carson!  He still has 8 delegates. 

beltim

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #891 on: March 02, 2016, 05:02:53 PM »
So it seems the delegates after Super Tuesday are as follows(not counting superdelegates),
Clinton - 1099
Sanders - 745

Trump - 556
Cruz - 435
Rubio - 204
Kasich - 44

The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

You're double counting the Super Tuesday results.  The actual numbers:
Clinton - 595
Sanders - 405
(need 2383 to win)

Trump - 319
Cruz - 226
Rubio - 110
Kasich - 25
(need 1237 to win)

Hey now, don't forget Ben Carson!  He still has 8 delegates.

Who?  ;)

Seriously though, in 10 years do you think Ben Carson or Herman Cain will be better remembered?

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #892 on: March 02, 2016, 05:08:19 PM »
The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

Why is that?  I'm not sure the GOP can avoid a Trump nomination at this point.  Even if Cruz and Rubio were to team up on the same ticket, I think they'd lose to Trump.  The party is broken.

And Trump will get absolutely savaged in the general election.  America has never elected a President without any prior political experience.  It would be like nominating my three year old, a complete blank slate of unknown and unknowable opinions, but clearly backed by irrational temper tantrums.

Hillary will point out that she has a lifetime of political experience at the highest levels, has worked tirelessly for the same causes and ideals her entire career, and while she's accumulated some mistakes along the way she is still clearly a competent and experienced politician.  Trump is a reality tv star who has gone bankrupt four times.  He's openly racist and hateful.  I still believe in the American people enough to think that he has no chance at all.  I predict Hillary will take 400 electors.
I think Rubio could win in a brokered convention, and I think he could win in a 1 on 1 if Cruz and Kasich drop out in the near future. I think if like you suggest Cruz left and endorsed Rubio, he would blow Trump out of the water, although that is unlikely. I agree Trump will lose the general election, for many reasons mainly being that a large percentage of people hate him.

For your point about Hillary pointing out she has a lifetime of political experience.... Kasich has been doing this and gets like 1/6 of the votes that Trump gets.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #893 on: March 02, 2016, 05:08:37 PM »
By the way, I'm still waiting for you to cite a source refuting the claim that single-payer would reduce healthcare spending as a fraction of GDP.

I honestly don't know. I don't think anyone does. Even left-leaning economists question his plan. What we have now is broken. We have two solutions to reduce costs: go to a private healthcare system (best cost, efficient option), go to national healthcare (more costly, more equitable). My opposition to national healthcare is based primarily on Constitutional grounds, though of course I'd like the cheaper, more efficient private option for everyone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/16/us/politics/left-leaning-economists-question-cost-of-bernie-sanderss-plans.html?_r=0

That article is remarkably short on facts, especially ones specifically related to the costs of Sanders' health care plan as opposed to the rest of his proposals put together. (I don't dispute that free college would be expensive.)

Edit: It's also interesting that, given the claims of the article, if Trump got the Republican nomination then either Democrat would be the fiscally-conservative choice in the general election.

Healthcare costs per capita have skyrocketed since the 1965's Great Society programs of Medicare and Medicaid. You see a slow rise in healthcare costs then it takes off once government healthcare expands in the 1970s. Government medical spending, regulation, and controls has been the primary driver to healthcare costs.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-breaks-from-the-pack/
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa211.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States#Overall_costs

Okay, if the primary driver of increased health care costs is government, then you should be able to explain why even more government (i.e., the single-payer systems in most other first-world countries) hasn't driven even higher cost increases in those places.



Hey now, don't forget Ben Carson!  He still has 8 delegates. 

Carson is out.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 05:10:41 PM by Jack »

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #894 on: March 02, 2016, 05:09:38 PM »

And Trump will get absolutely savaged in the general election.  America has never elected a President without any prior political experience.

I think you might have quite a shock coming in the near future, but the part about never electing a POTUS without prior political experience isn't actually true.  Ulysses S. Grant never held an elected position prior to becoming president, although his presidency is widely regarded as the height of corruption.  Also, Dwight Eisenhower never held an elected office prior to POTUS either.  Both were military generals shortly following a war, however, and Americans do like a winner. 

EDIT:  The same can be said, arguably, that Washington should be included here also.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 05:14:26 PM by MoonShadow »

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #895 on: March 02, 2016, 05:09:41 PM »
So it seems the delegates after Super Tuesday are as follows(not counting superdelegates),
Clinton - 1099
Sanders - 745

Trump - 556
Cruz - 435
Rubio - 204
Kasich - 44

The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

You're double counting the Super Tuesday results.  The actual numbers:
Clinton - 595
Sanders - 405
(need 2383 to win)

Trump - 319
Cruz - 226
Rubio - 110
Kasich - 25
(need 1237 to win)

Hey now, don't forget Ben Carson!  He still has 8 delegates.
He dropped out,
I think if he endorses someone else his delegates can vote for someone else, but otherwise we can forget about his delegates

MoonShadow

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #896 on: March 02, 2016, 05:12:03 PM »
So it seems the delegates after Super Tuesday are as follows(not counting superdelegates),
Clinton - 1099
Sanders - 745

Trump - 556
Cruz - 435
Rubio - 204
Kasich - 44

The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

You're double counting the Super Tuesday results.  The actual numbers:
Clinton - 595
Sanders - 405
(need 2383 to win)

Trump - 319
Cruz - 226
Rubio - 110
Kasich - 25
(need 1237 to win)

Hey now, don't forget Ben Carson!  He still has 8 delegates.
He dropped out,
I think if he endorses someone else his delegates can vote for someone else, but otherwise we can forget about his delegates

Technically, he didn't.  But I can see that his speech today is pretty much a prelude to dropping out.  I was being facetious, btw.

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #897 on: March 02, 2016, 05:13:35 PM »
...banking on a complete unknown, policy-wise, and a complete unknown in terms of how, or if, he will modify his extremist ranting.
That's a fair statement regarding Trump, so we agree on that.  Go back 8 years and it seems a reasonably accurate portrayal of Obama also....

I wouldn't say that. Perhaps you can disagree with the policies he proposed, but he certainly seemed to have a good grasp of what he was proposing.  Beyond "we never win snymore, we're going to win when I'm elected" or "we're going to build a great wall and Mexico is going to pay for it" without being able to even begin to say how that is going to happen, at any rate.

beltim

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #898 on: March 02, 2016, 05:15:12 PM »
The crazy thing is that I still think Rubio is 10 times as likely as Cruz to become republican nom

Why is that?  I'm not sure the GOP can avoid a Trump nomination at this point.  Even if Cruz and Rubio were to team up on the same ticket, I think they'd lose to Trump.  The party is broken.

I don't understand this at all.  Trump has yet to win a majority of votes in any state (the closest he's come is a Democratic stronghold with I think ~4x the turnout in the Democratic primary than Republic primary).  Cruz+Rubio would destroy Trump, and it wouldn't be close.

Heck, Kasich+Rubio would have beaten Trump in 4 Super Tuesday states, and Kasich's polling at like 8% nationally.

And Trump will get absolutely savaged in the general election.  America has never elected a President without any prior political experience.  It would be like nominating my three year old, a complete blank slate of unknown and unknowable opinions, but clearly backed by irrational temper tantrums.

Hillary will point out that she has a lifetime of political experience at the highest levels, has worked tirelessly for the same causes and ideals her entire career, and while she's accumulated some mistakes along the way she is still clearly a competent and experienced politician.  Trump is a reality tv star who has gone bankrupt four times.  He's openly racist and hateful.  I still believe in the American people enough to think that he has no chance at all.  I predict Hillary will take 400 electors.

This part is right on.  Trump has the lowest favorability rating of any presidential candidate in the last 25 years.:
https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/01/trump-has-highest-unfavorability-ever-recorded

LeRainDrop

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #899 on: March 02, 2016, 05:23:26 PM »
Hey now, don't forget Ben Carson!  He still has 8 delegates.

Who?  ;)

See several posts ago.  This guy:

Carson -->  Out
https://www.bencarson.com/news/news-updates/official-statement-by-dr.-ben-carson

Seriously though, in 10 years do you think Ben Carson or Herman Cain will be better remembered?

Yes, many conservatives will.  I personally met Cain in college, from which I graduated in 2003, so I've remembered him for at least 13 years already -- granted, I live in his home state, Georgia, so that's on his side as far as my voter memory goes!  I mean, many secondary candidates from both big parties probably get less recognition over time, moreso by people in the opposing party, I would guess (i.e., Dems remember their old-timey candidates better than Repubs remember them and vice versa).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 05:36:30 PM by LeRainDrop »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!