Author Topic: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate  (Read 739569 times)

music lover

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #400 on: February 09, 2016, 04:12:56 PM »
There is only one reason why the Secretary of State of the US govt. would bypass the required secure email and conduct business on a private server...she wanted total control over her emails. And that was proven when she immediately deleted thousands of emails when the FOI request was made.

Anyone who thinks it was a "honest mistake" or due to her "technical limitations" is a gullible fool. Clinton has a long history of lying and dishonest behavior....this is just another example.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 04:15:12 PM by music lover »

Glenstache

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #401 on: February 09, 2016, 04:38:46 PM »
There is only one reason why the Secretary of State of the US govt. would bypass the required secure email and conduct business on a private server...she wanted total control over her emails. And that was proven when she immediately deleted thousands of emails when the FOI request was made.

Anyone who thinks it was a "honest mistake" or due to her "technical limitations" is a gullible fool. Clinton has a long history of lying and dishonest behavior....this is just another example.

Can we also all be angry about this too, then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

Slightly different context, but still shows that the RNC is inconsistent in their indignation (not a uniquely GOP trait).

music lover

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #402 on: February 09, 2016, 05:28:24 PM »
There is only one reason why the Secretary of State of the US govt. would bypass the required secure email and conduct business on a private server...she wanted total control over her emails. And that was proven when she immediately deleted thousands of emails when the FOI request was made.

Anyone who thinks it was a "honest mistake" or due to her "technical limitations" is a gullible fool. Clinton has a long history of lying and dishonest behavior....this is just another example.

Can we also all be angry about this too, then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

Slightly different context, but still shows that the RNC is inconsistent in their indignation (not a uniquely GOP trait).

What's your point...Bush had an email controversy, so that means Hillary should get a free pass today?

"Waaaa...he did it so I can do it too?"

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #403 on: February 09, 2016, 06:12:13 PM »
There is only one reason why the Secretary of State of the US govt. would bypass the required secure email and conduct business on a private server...she wanted total control over her emails. And that was proven when she immediately deleted thousands of emails when the FOI request was made.

Anyone who thinks it was a "honest mistake" or due to her "technical limitations" is a gullible fool. Clinton has a long history of lying and dishonest behavior....this is just another example.

Can we also all be angry about this too, then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

Slightly different context, but still shows that the RNC is inconsistent in their indignation (not a uniquely GOP trait).

What's your point...Bush had an email controversy, so that means Hillary should get a free pass today?

"Waaaa...he did it so I can do it too?"

Actually, no and I know you to be smart enough not to purposefully misread what I wrote. The operative word is "too." I don't think Hillary should get a pass on this. I have a lot of respect for her, but also think she messed up. My point was simply frustration at the (fully expected) inconsistency and selective outrage of the GOP. Clinton is painted as some kind of unique devil, but her transgressions are less than many. I recognize that politics is a bare-knuckle dirty sport, but it still galls me. I guess it is not so much a legitimate criticism of a 2016 candidate as a criticism of what we have ended up with for process.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #404 on: February 09, 2016, 06:49:47 PM »
I think we should dislike Hillary because she is a shitty candidate, not because of an email scandal

Jack

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #405 on: February 09, 2016, 06:51:25 PM »
There is only one reason why the Secretary of State of the US govt. would bypass the required secure email and conduct business on a private server...she wanted total control over her emails. And that was proven when she immediately deleted thousands of emails when the FOI request was made.

Anyone who thinks it was a "honest mistake" or due to her "technical limitations" is a gullible fool. Clinton has a long history of lying and dishonest behavior....this is just another example.

Can we also all be angry about this too, then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

Slightly different context, but still shows that the RNC is inconsistent in their indignation (not a uniquely GOP trait).

Absolutely!

I think we should dislike Hillary because she is a shitty candidate, not because of an email scandal

Can't it be both?

electriceagle

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #406 on: February 10, 2016, 05:56:32 AM »

Another possibility is that after twenty years of having Republicans ceaselessly trying to dig up dirt on her and her family, she wanted to shield her email from their attempts.

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner.

I believe that she used her private server to hide emails from potential future FOIA requests that would be used politically. She was absolutely wrong to do so.

In the grand scheme of things, if this is the worst thing that she has done in 20+ years of public service, its not that bad. That doesn't make it right, it makes it not worth dwelling on.

She should have admitted a mistake and issued a series of mea culpas over this ages ago. Denying it is what makes it news.

Killerbrandt

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #407 on: February 10, 2016, 06:17:02 AM »

Another possibility is that after twenty years of having Republicans ceaselessly trying to dig up dirt on her and her family, she wanted to shield her email from their attempts.

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner.

I believe that she used her private server to hide emails from potential future FOIA requests that would be used politically. She was absolutely wrong to do so.

In the grand scheme of things, if this is the worst thing that she has done in 20+ years of public service, its not that bad. That doesn't make it right, it makes it not worth dwelling on.

She should have admitted a mistake and issued a series of mea culpas over this ages ago. Denying it is what makes it news.

Wow!! So to hide from the opposition, she should be allowed to hide GOVERNMENT emails? And from your post, you are ok with Government secrets getting out? and not having an easy way for accountability? wow!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 06:19:56 AM by Killerbrandt »

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #408 on: February 10, 2016, 06:34:44 AM »

Another possibility is that after twenty years of having Republicans ceaselessly trying to dig up dirt on her and her family, she wanted to shield her email from their attempts.

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner.

I believe that she used her private server to hide emails from potential future FOIA requests that would be used politically. She was absolutely wrong to do so.

In the grand scheme of things, if this is the worst thing that she has done in 20+ years of public service, its not that bad. That doesn't make it right, it makes it not worth dwelling on.

She should have admitted a mistake and issued a series of mea culpas over this ages ago. Denying it is what makes it news.

Wow!! So to hide from the opposition, she should be allowed to hide GOVERNMENT emails? And from your post, you are ok with Government secrets getting out? and not having an easy way for accountability? wow!

I think the general answer is No, No and No. I would counter, however, saying that even so this is a breach of trust for which Clinton is already being made accountable for in the court of public opinion. Let the people decide whether that makes her unfit for the Presidency. Barring the release of new details, there is nothing that Clinton did that is worthy of prosecution, much less conviction.

Killerbrandt

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #409 on: February 10, 2016, 06:36:54 AM »

Another possibility is that after twenty years of having Republicans ceaselessly trying to dig up dirt on her and her family, she wanted to shield her email from their attempts.

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner.

I believe that she used her private server to hide emails from potential future FOIA requests that would be used politically. She was absolutely wrong to do so.

In the grand scheme of things, if this is the worst thing that she has done in 20+ years of public service, its not that bad. That doesn't make it right, it makes it not worth dwelling on.

She should have admitted a mistake and issued a series of mea culpas over this ages ago. Denying it is what makes it news.

Wow!! So to hide from the opposition, she should be allowed to hide GOVERNMENT emails? And from your post, you are ok with Government secrets getting out? and not having an easy way for accountability? wow!

I think the general answer is No, No and No. I would counter, however, saying that even so this is a breach of trust for which Clinton is already being made accountable for in the court of public opinion. Let the people decide whether that makes her unfit for the Presidency. Barring the release of new details, there is nothing that Clinton did that is worthy of prosecution, much less conviction.

Oh good, so you are fine with me and my fellow workers to break policy? GREAT!! Ill just let public opinion shout and spout, but just walk home without any punishment.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #410 on: February 10, 2016, 06:57:48 AM »

Where do you get that Clinton's emails were classified from the start? I have not seen any indication of that. Juan Williams (Fox News Commentator) did a good writeup on the Clinton email matter just other day. Yes, it is an opinion piece, but I don't see Williams having an axe to grind one way or the other in this.

Quote from: Juan Williams
It has never been shown that Clinton shared information marked as classified at the time it was sent or received.

http://thehill.com/opinion/juan-williams/268514-juan-williams-innuendo-fuels-clinton-email-saga

Quote
I. Charles McCullough III, the inspector general for the intelligence community, said he has concluded two of Mrs. Clinton’s emails met the standard of “top secret/SCI level,” while other messages are still being scrutinized to see how secret they should have been.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/11/hillary-clinton-emails-contained-top-secret-materi/?page=all
As I have stated before  SCI material doesn't go from unclassified to TS/SCI. If it is SCI now, it was SCI when it was created. People that think she didn't commit a crime don't understand how classification works in the US. My job requires me to read through various agencies classification manuals and I know how things are classified and when classifications might change.

I had security clearance with the DoD when I was designing flight sims for F-18s.  Took about two weeks to get, and I think they did a police background check.  Not really a big deal at all, and simply having clearance certainly doesn't make me an expert on security matters as you seem to imply.

We regularly dealt with an awful lot of military documents.  I usually had no idea if the technical weapons specs I was looking at were classified or not.  Has the US policy changed that much in the last six years, or are you just making things up for the sake of your argument?
Having a secret clearance is much different than a TS/SCI. It took me 6 months to get mine and that is considered fast, most people are waiting around a year for one. They not only conduct a background check on yourself but all of your immediate family. They interview the neighbors of your past residences and co-workers of past employers. They also conduct background checks on any non-us citizen you know. Finally depending on the agency you will be working for and accesses you may need to have you, you will also take a polygraph test.  A secret clearance pretty much only requires a criminal background check and a credit check.

I think you are getting entangled in the twisted trees of the policy of classifying documents. Classification policy and protocol is not the same as criminal law. Looking at the forest as a whole I question whether legally a person can be held responsible for an inner office email AS PART OF NORMAL GOVERNMENT BUSINESS OPERATIONS that was sent or received on a private server whose contents happened to be declared classified years later. What amounts to a mistake in IT security in which there is no evidence of harm nor criminal intent does not rise to the level of criminal prosecution.

In addition, let's contrast this with General Petraeus who knowingly sent classified documents OUTSIDE THE GOVERNMENT to a reporter FOR PERSONAL BENEFIT. Ultimately he only had to plead guilty to a misdemeanor with no jail time whatsoever.

As I said, in a previous post, let the court of public opinion decide whether this mistake disqualifies Clinton from being President.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #411 on: February 10, 2016, 07:02:21 AM »

Another possibility is that after twenty years of having Republicans ceaselessly trying to dig up dirt on her and her family, she wanted to shield her email from their attempts.

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner.

I believe that she used her private server to hide emails from potential future FOIA requests that would be used politically. She was absolutely wrong to do so.

In the grand scheme of things, if this is the worst thing that she has done in 20+ years of public service, its not that bad. That doesn't make it right, it makes it not worth dwelling on.

She should have admitted a mistake and issued a series of mea culpas over this ages ago. Denying it is what makes it news.

Wow!! So to hide from the opposition, she should be allowed to hide GOVERNMENT emails? And from your post, you are ok with Government secrets getting out? and not having an easy way for accountability? wow!

I think the general answer is No, No and No. I would counter, however, saying that even so this is a breach of trust for which Clinton is already being made accountable for in the court of public opinion. Let the people decide whether that makes her unfit for the Presidency. Barring the release of new details, there is nothing that Clinton did that is worthy of prosecution, much less conviction.

Oh good, so you are fine with me and my fellow workers to break policy? GREAT!! Ill just let public opinion shout and spout, but just walk home without any punishment.

Of course you shouldn't break policy. On the other hand, if the violation was simply a mistake of judgment while you were just trying to do your job, I think it would be a dick move to threaten you with legal action for it.

Killerbrandt

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #412 on: February 10, 2016, 07:13:00 AM »

Another possibility is that after twenty years of having Republicans ceaselessly trying to dig up dirt on her and her family, she wanted to shield her email from their attempts.

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner.

I believe that she used her private server to hide emails from potential future FOIA requests that would be used politically. She was absolutely wrong to do so.

In the grand scheme of things, if this is the worst thing that she has done in 20+ years of public service, its not that bad. That doesn't make it right, it makes it not worth dwelling on.

She should have admitted a mistake and issued a series of mea culpas over this ages ago. Denying it is what makes it news.

Wow!! So to hide from the opposition, she should be allowed to hide GOVERNMENT emails? And from your post, you are ok with Government secrets getting out? and not having an easy way for accountability? wow!

I think the general answer is No, No and No. I would counter, however, saying that even so this is a breach of trust for which Clinton is already being made accountable for in the court of public opinion. Let the people decide whether that makes her unfit for the Presidency. Barring the release of new details, there is nothing that Clinton did that is worthy of prosecution, much less conviction.

Oh good, so you are fine with me and my fellow workers to break policy? GREAT!! Ill just let public opinion shout and spout, but just walk home without any punishment.

Of course you shouldn't break policy. On the other hand, if the violation was simply a mistake of judgment while you were just trying to do your job, I think it would be a dick move to threaten you with legal action for it.

She broke policy! and it is not a simple mistake of one or two emails, there were thousands. Our policy states that NO government emails should be sent to private emails or outside the workplace. She had her own server!! that they IT did not even know about or approve! You keep making excuses, but she broke our policies. Just the other day I had to take our annual security training and classified information is not always labeled, but you know when it has sensitive information on it. Ignorance is not an excuse against the law.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #413 on: February 10, 2016, 08:35:27 AM »
Emails and scandals aside, what to think of the primary results?

is this the last blossom of the socialist dream or does sanders really have a chance?
Will the trump rout of republicans only continue or can any defeat him?
Will the establishment coalesce around someone?
Will Micheal Bloomberg run, if so how will that play out in the general?

Gin1984

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #414 on: February 10, 2016, 08:43:01 AM »

Another possibility is that after twenty years of having Republicans ceaselessly trying to dig up dirt on her and her family, she wanted to shield her email from their attempts.

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner.

I believe that she used her private server to hide emails from potential future FOIA requests that would be used politically. She was absolutely wrong to do so.

In the grand scheme of things, if this is the worst thing that she has done in 20+ years of public service, its not that bad. That doesn't make it right, it makes it not worth dwelling on.

She should have admitted a mistake and issued a series of mea culpas over this ages ago. Denying it is what makes it news.

Wow!! So to hide from the opposition, she should be allowed to hide GOVERNMENT emails? And from your post, you are ok with Government secrets getting out? and not having an easy way for accountability? wow!

I think the general answer is No, No and No. I would counter, however, saying that even so this is a breach of trust for which Clinton is already being made accountable for in the court of public opinion. Let the people decide whether that makes her unfit for the Presidency. Barring the release of new details, there is nothing that Clinton did that is worthy of prosecution, much less conviction.

Oh good, so you are fine with me and my fellow workers to break policy? GREAT!! Ill just let public opinion shout and spout, but just walk home without any punishment.

Of course you shouldn't break policy. On the other hand, if the violation was simply a mistake of judgment while you were just trying to do your job, I think it would be a dick move to threaten you with legal action for it.

She broke policy! and it is not a simple mistake of one or two emails, there were thousands. Our policy states that NO government emails should be sent to private emails or outside the workplace. She had her own server!! that they IT did not even know about or approve! You keep making excuses, but she broke our policies. Just the other day I had to take our annual security training and classified information is not always labeled, but you know when it has sensitive information on it. Ignorance is not an excuse against the law.
The reason people are showing that others in the state department did it, is to show it was not policy AT THE TIME.  Obviously it was acceptable to use private emails (her server was actual more secure than the ones use by GOP appointed people) as shown by the activities of her predecessors. 

Killerbrandt

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #415 on: February 10, 2016, 08:49:10 AM »

Another possibility is that after twenty years of having Republicans ceaselessly trying to dig up dirt on her and her family, she wanted to shield her email from their attempts.

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner.

I believe that she used her private server to hide emails from potential future FOIA requests that would be used politically. She was absolutely wrong to do so.

In the grand scheme of things, if this is the worst thing that she has done in 20+ years of public service, its not that bad. That doesn't make it right, it makes it not worth dwelling on.

She should have admitted a mistake and issued a series of mea culpas over this ages ago. Denying it is what makes it news.

Wow!! So to hide from the opposition, she should be allowed to hide GOVERNMENT emails? And from your post, you are ok with Government secrets getting out? and not having an easy way for accountability? wow!

I think the general answer is No, No and No. I would counter, however, saying that even so this is a breach of trust for which Clinton is already being made accountable for in the court of public opinion. Let the people decide whether that makes her unfit for the Presidency. Barring the release of new details, there is nothing that Clinton did that is worthy of prosecution, much less conviction.

Oh good, so you are fine with me and my fellow workers to break policy? GREAT!! Ill just let public opinion shout and spout, but just walk home without any punishment.

Of course you shouldn't break policy. On the other hand, if the violation was simply a mistake of judgment while you were just trying to do your job, I think it would be a dick move to threaten you with legal action for it.

She broke policy! and it is not a simple mistake of one or two emails, there were thousands. Our policy states that NO government emails should be sent to private emails or outside the workplace. She had her own server!! that they IT did not even know about or approve! You keep making excuses, but she broke our policies. Just the other day I had to take our annual security training and classified information is not always labeled, but you know when it has sensitive information on it. Ignorance is not an excuse against the law.
The reason people are showing that others in the state department did it, is to show it was not policy AT THE TIME.  Obviously it was acceptable to use private emails (her server was actual more secure than the ones use by GOP appointed people) as shown by the activities of her predecessors.

That is complete garbage, I was with the government when she was secretary of the state and I still am! Nothing has changed on that rule! You cannot use a private server! You cannot use your own phone!! and you are responsible for confidential data even if its not labeled yet!

Killerbrandt

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #416 on: February 10, 2016, 08:50:58 AM »
Emails and scandals aside, what to think of the primary results?

is this the last blossom of the socialist dream or does sanders really have a chance?
Will the trump rout of republicans only continue or can any defeat him?
Will the establishment coalesce around someone?
Will Micheal Bloomberg run, if so how will that play out in the general?

I love this! I am reading your post like a movie trailer! hahaha!!

I was shocked that Kasich got second!! and I personally thought he was completely out of the race until then! So that was a nice surprise!

I am not a Sanders fan, but yes, I cheered for him when he beat Hillary.

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #417 on: February 10, 2016, 09:01:27 AM »
That was like a movie trailer... Yeah Kasich taking 2nd in New Hampshire Republican race was impressive.

I think Bernie and Hillary have more dueling to do.

Rubio face planted in the gravel w Christy calling out that 25 sec Obama sound bite. I wonder if the wind is out of his sails for good. Sorry for mixing metaphors there.

As for criticisms? I'm disappointed by the rhetoric coming from Hillary supporters. They make her seem desperate. Really Gloria and Madeline? Women only like Bernie because the boys like Bernie? Gloria Steinem, in one stroke, undid her life's work, IMO. She shamed, judged and ridiculed potential voters in one little sentence. It's not helping Hillary.

Jack

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #418 on: February 10, 2016, 09:12:24 AM »
I'm annoyed at the spin the NY Times put on Bernie's win. They wrote:

Quote
For the Democrats, Mr. Sanders's popularity with liberals, young people, and some women and working-class white men has underscored potential vulnerabilities for Mrs. Clinton in the nominating contests ahead. She is now under enormous pressure to prove that her message can inspire and rally voters.

By talking about "potential vulnerabilities," the NY Times is acting like Clinton is still the front-runner. No, you silly newspapermen! Sanders has tied one state and won the other outright (and by a veritable landslide). That means Clinton's vulnerabilities are actual, not "potential," and that her message has been proven not to inspire.

Hillary is losing, and continuing to pretend Sanders is somehow anything less than the most-viable Democratic candidate is simply inaccurate.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #419 on: February 10, 2016, 09:16:54 AM »


As for criticisms? I'm disappointed by the rhetoric coming from Hillary supporters. They make her seem desperate. Really Gloria and Madeline? Women only like Bernie because the boys like Bernie? Gloria Steinem, in one stroke, undid her life's work, IMO. She shamed, judged and ridiculed potential voters in one little sentence. It's not helping Hillary.

I completely agree.  I'm hoping that the way Steinem's remarks have backfired on her will make the Hillary camp recognize that this is a losing strategy.  I agree with you, things are getting ugly, and I'm very unhappy about especially the older white women who are trading in sexism in their fervor to get Hillary elected. 

Honestly, I have been mostly on the fence re Bernie vs. Hillary.  They are such different candidates, and though I agree in so many ways with Bernie about domestic issues, I am not very comfortable with him in terms of foreign policy experience.  But this recent spate of venom from some of Hillary's female backers is making me reconsider how I feel about her. 

Hillary obviously realizes Bernie is a threat to her now, even despite the fact that the media, the Democratic Party, and basically every wealthy donor have been doing everything they can to ignore or marginalize him.  She knows this is absolutely her last chance at the White House.  And so does the generation of white women her age who really want to see her get there.  We saw in the run-up to the 2008 election that when Hillary doesn't get what she wants, she is able to turn very nasty.  It has taken me a long time to get the bad taste out of my mouth regarding her horrible actions when she realized that Barack Obama might actually beat her for the nomination.  The bile is coming back up now.

beltim

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #420 on: February 10, 2016, 10:11:16 AM »
I'm annoyed at the spin the NY Times put on Bernie's win. They wrote:

Quote
For the Democrats, Mr. Sanders's popularity with liberals, young people, and some women and working-class white men has underscored potential vulnerabilities for Mrs. Clinton in the nominating contests ahead. She is now under enormous pressure to prove that her message can inspire and rally voters.

By talking about "potential vulnerabilities," the NY Times is acting like Clinton is still the front-runner. No, you silly newspapermen! Sanders has tied one state and won the other outright (and by a veritable landslide). That means Clinton's vulnerabilities are actual, not "potential," and that her message has been proven not to inspire.

Hillary is losing, and continuing to pretend Sanders is somehow anything less than the most-viable Democratic candidate is simply inaccurate.

That's overstating it a bit.  Iowa and New Hampshire are two of the best possible states for Sanders – they have a much higher percentage of Democratic voters who identify as liberal, which is a group that Sanders cleans up in.  http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bernie-sanders-needs-more-than-the-tie-he-got-in-iowa/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/bernie-sanders-could-win-iowa-and-new-hampshire-then-lose-everywhere-else/

They also have some of the lowest percentages of non-white voters of any state, and Clinton does much better than Sanders among that group: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/04/why-exactly-does-bernie-sanders-struggle-with-black-and-hispanic-voters-heres-why/

Is Sanders a viable candidate?  Of course.  Is he the front-runner?  Only if you completely ignore the demographics of the country.

Because of these demographics, Clinton will win South Carolina: http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/primary-forecast/south-carolina-democratic/

We really need to wait until Super Tuesday to see how Sanders and Clinton do in states where neither has a huge advantage demographically.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #421 on: February 10, 2016, 10:39:57 AM »
The other thing I noticed was that the total the republican votes for all candidates was just over 280k while Hil and bern barely got 240k. I have noticed this trend in past elections as a measure of enthusiasm people have for their respective parties. If this had been in iowa or some other republican leaning state I wouldn't think much of it but this does seem to indicate that republicans as a whole are having a better year and my be a good indication of which party will win the nomination, thoughts?

republican turn out in NH 54%
democrat turn out in NH 46 %

It will be interesting to see what happens in the other states

EDITDemocrats in the 2008 primary recieved ~530k votes while all republicans recieved ~350k votes in SC which tends to vote 55-60% R and 40-45% D

EDIT2: Obama still did not win SC in the general (in 08 or 12) but it was closer and obviously he won the country as a whole
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 10:48:33 AM by hoping2retire35 »

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #422 on: February 10, 2016, 11:04:03 AM »
I think the older women have had more gender inequality in their lives and It would mean more to them to have a woman president, and some of them will look past policies and focus more on gender, whereas younger women have had less gender inequality and care less about gender and more about policies. That being said, I don't understand why everyone is so mad at Gloria Steinem for making one slip up on a talk show, she is one of the reasons that women have less gender inequality today, and to say that she undid her life's work in one sentence I think is ignorant and downright stupid.

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #423 on: February 10, 2016, 11:15:00 AM »
I think the older women have had more gender inequality in their lives and It would mean more to them to have a woman president, and some of them will look past policies and focus more on gender, whereas younger women have had less gender inequality and care less about gender and more about policies. That being said, I don't understand why everyone is so mad at Gloria Steinem for making one slip up on a talk show, she is one of the reasons that women have less gender inequality today, and to say that she undid her life's work in one sentence I think is ignorant and downright stupid.

She definitely did not undo her life's work in one sentence.  Unfortunately, she did potentially incalculable damage to Hillary's attempts to connect to young women with one sentence, when she wanted to do the opposite.

Yesterday I read an article that reminded me of something I hadn't really thought of in so many words: millennial women don't have any memory of Hillary from the 90s.  Her accomplishments as a public figure and as first lady weren't anything they saw or remembered growing up.  Hillary has been such a known figure with known name recognition for so long that I think her campaign sort of forgot that.  Bernie, on the other hand, had to work to make himself known, and therefore did a lot of outreach to the younger generation.  I think that was probably a miscalculation on Hillary's part.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #424 on: February 10, 2016, 11:31:22 AM »
millennial women don't have any memory of Hillary from the 90s. 

My kids and their friends (like 10-12 years old) were talking about the election in the car a few days ago, and were shocked to learn that Hillary Clinton's husband had once been a US President.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #425 on: February 10, 2016, 11:38:50 AM »
millennial women don't have any memory of Hillary from the 90s. 

My kids and their friends (like 10-12 years old) were talking about the election in the car a few days ago, and were shocked to learn that Hillary Clinton's husband had once been a US President.

There you go.  And I don't think it's all that much better for 18-22 year-olds.  My stepdaughters are 23 and 22.  The 23 year-old is pretty politically engaged, so she knows, but she didn't live it, you know? She was one year old when Bill won the election. 

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #426 on: February 10, 2016, 12:08:22 PM »
Hey, what do you all think of Kasich? I really would like to know peoples thoughts. Is he an honest guy? Is he hiding anything or putting on a false front? I am trying to do research on him, but I want to hear what you guys would have to say.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #427 on: February 10, 2016, 12:13:47 PM »
millennial women don't have any memory of Hillary from the 90s. 

My kids and their friends (like 10-12 years old) were talking about the election in the car a few days ago, and were shocked to learn that Hillary Clinton's husband had once been a US President.

There you go.  And I don't think it's all that much better for 18-22 year-olds.  My stepdaughters are 23 and 22.  The 23 year-old is pretty politically engaged, so she knows, but she didn't live it, you know? She was one year old when Bill won the election.

OMG, amazing how old this makes me feel, and I'm in my early 30's!  I think that's a pretty insightful observation, Kris.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #428 on: February 10, 2016, 12:17:12 PM »
millennial women don't have any memory of Hillary from the 90s. 

My kids and their friends (like 10-12 years old) were talking about the election in the car a few days ago, and were shocked to learn that Hillary Clinton's husband had once been a US President.

There you go.  And I don't think it's all that much better for 18-22 year-olds.  My stepdaughters are 23 and 22.  The 23 year-old is pretty politically engaged, so she knows, but she didn't live it, you know? She was one year old when Bill won the election.

OMG, amazing how old this makes me feel, and I'm in my early 30's!  I think that's a pretty insightful observation, Kris.

Thanks!  And to make you feel even worse, I miscalculated.  She was on MONTH old when Bill won the election.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #429 on: February 10, 2016, 12:36:29 PM »
Hey, what do you all think of Kasich? I really would like to know peoples thoughts. Is he an honest guy? Is he hiding anything or putting on a false front? I am trying to do research on him, but I want to hear what you guys would have to say.

He seems like the most reasonable of the remaining Republican field, more moderate than most of the others and probably the one second most likely to have any crossover appeal (my perception is that Rubio has the edge here). He has the administrative experience of a governor (one of the things I like about Jeb!, too) and doesn't have an out-there complex like Trump (BUILD A WALL!!!) or Ted Cruz (machine-gun bacon, anyone? That's literally my favorite thing he's ever done, btw, other than that he can go pound sand).

I also like Kasich because I get the sense that he and whoever the (D) nominee is would be able to have substantive discussions about issues instead of just shooting barbs ("total loser!" lol) I mean, there will be plenty of that, but there might be some real nuggets of policy buried in there for a change.


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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #430 on: February 10, 2016, 12:59:35 PM »
IMO, the main downside of Kasich is that he might actually have a chance of beating the democratic candidate. If Clinton were to win the democratic nomination that'd turn into an upside, though.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #431 on: February 10, 2016, 01:32:31 PM »
Hey, what do you all think of Kasich? I really would like to know peoples thoughts. Is he an honest guy? Is he hiding anything or putting on a false front? I am trying to do research on him, but I want to hear what you guys would have to say.
I used to like him as much as I like Rand Paul, at the start of his campaign he talked about reducing all spending, including military, and thus balancing the budget. He has since put out his actual plan that shows him wanting to increase military spending, I'm aware that any republican that wants to decrease military spending is unelectable, but that was one of the biggest reasons I liked him to begin with.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #432 on: February 10, 2016, 01:39:21 PM »
New Hampshire primaries are now 100% reported,
Trump had a HUGE win, getting 10 delegates, Kasich got 2nd with a mere 4 delegates, while Cruz, Bush and Rubio each got 3 delegates
Sanders had a HUGE win, getting 15 delegates while Clinton got a mere 9 delegates

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #433 on: February 10, 2016, 09:44:28 PM »
But this recent spate of venom from some of Hillary's female backers is making me reconsider how I feel about her. 

Do you think that's fair, though? For example, here's a screen shot from the FiveThirtyEight comment section, taken just after Hillary's Iowa vote percentage went from 49.9% to 49.8%:

http://f.cl.ly/items/16011w3v2Y2h1k1V331B/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-01%20at%2010.04.32%20PM.png

Does this make you less likely to support Bernie? If not, then Steinem's comments shouldn't make you less likely to support Hillary, right?

I'm not telling anyone to support one candidate over another, but if we're going to take supporters' behavior into consideration, let's do it fairly.

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #434 on: February 10, 2016, 09:57:04 PM »
But Cressida, that guy works at the Krusty Krab! 

He doesn't pull the weight of Gloria Steinem.  On second thought, Mr. Krabs is quite the mustachian. Maybe we should give him an ear.

I think the point is that Gloria Steinem and Madeline Albright are high profile endorsers, who I would imagine Hillary is counting on for support. They're failing her. Krusty Krab guy ain't in their league, and I doubt Bernie is relying on his endorsement.

That said, yeah, I get that these were gaffes, and I can get over it. I just couldn't believe what I was reading, then I went and double checked and yep - that's what they said. It reinforces the idiotic comments Hillary made about not being establishment because, as a woman, that would be impossible.  *what?*
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 09:59:26 PM by Malaysia41 »

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #435 on: February 10, 2016, 09:59:53 PM »
New Hampshire primaries are now 100% reported,
Trump had a HUGE win, getting 10 delegates, Kasich got 2nd with a mere 4 delegates, while Cruz, Bush and Rubio each got 3 delegates
Sanders had a HUGE win, getting 15 delegates while Clinton got a mere 9 delegates

YUUUUUUGE!

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #436 on: February 10, 2016, 11:04:18 PM »
Honestly, I have been mostly on the fence re Bernie vs. Hillary.  They are such different candidates, and though I agree in so many ways with Bernie about domestic issues, I am not very comfortable with him in terms of foreign policy experience. 

I'm of the opposite opinion. On foreign policy, Bernie >> Hillary. Here's why.

1. Bernie's been on the right side of just about every major foreign policy debate going back to Nicaragua under Reagan. I get the impression that the man honestly evaluates the facts before making hasty decisions, at least that's the impression I get from reading about his time in the Senate, HoR, and as Mayor of Burlington. And that's a quality I want in someone directing foreign policy.

2. Hillary seems to be a continuation of the long tradition of foreign policy thinking that stretches back to WW2. Since the Dulles brothers under Eisenhower, we've had Sec of States, Directors of CIA and various white house advisors, who've recommended vigorous action without doing their homework*. With Hillary's track record as Sec of State, she seems to me to be a military hawk. Her handling of Libya was hasty. From what I have read, she knew what she wanted to do before doing her homework. Right in line with  Kissinger or John Foster Dulles**. I see her as more of the same. To be fair, Iran deal seemed somewhat better thought out, and planned, and may turn out okay, so there is hope there.

Yes, perhaps I'm unfairly ascribing all the transgressions of the past on Hillary. I'm aware of this. But I don't see her as a bastion of clear eyed analytical and logical thinking when it comes to foreign policy. Experienced? Yes. Biased? Yes.

The thing is, lately I've been wondering which candidate will be the most likely to be sure of his/her facts before taking action. It certainly ain't Carly Fiorina. I think she still believes those planned parenthood videos represented reality. But no need to worry about her as she'll be out soon. It ain't Trump. That guy calls it from the gut, which sometimes works out, but often won't. Oh I shudder to think of it. Hillary, well, I think she's in the middle. But Bernie seems better suited to the job. He seems the most willing to evaluate facts before jumping to conclusions.

*These leaders not only failed to combat confirmation bias, but seem to have not comprehended its existence. They formed opinions of who the bad guys were, what should be done, and then cherry-picked data, real or imagined, to support their proposals. And the consequences have been tragic. There's a long list of examples, I'd recommend starting with Iran's Mossedegh 1953, Guatamala's Arbenz 1954, and Chile's Allende, 1973. (but wait, there's MORE! Congo, Dominican Republic, Iraq, Pakistan, Nicaragua, ...).  The common theme in these grave and meddlesome activities, is that our leaders, who we trusted with all that power, didn't appreciate the importance of double checking their facts, seeking out dissenting opinions, or striving to understand reality before approving military action that cost lives. Many lives. Too many lives. These people, highly educated people, authorized, or pushed their presidents to authorize, often illegal, usually covert actions that largely contributed to the shit storms the middle east (and parts of Latin America) are in today.

** The worst offenders I've come across in terms of pursing a strategy without doing their homework: Nixon, George W Bush, Henry Kissinger, William J Casey, the Dulles brothers, all the neocons (Paul Wolfowitz, I. Krystall, Doug Feith).

Sorry for the long, footnoted post. Lately I've been obsessing on post-WWII foreign policy of the US, and just about at every turn I am gobsmacked to learn how little homework was done before ordering actions that, in retrospect, have resulted in tragedies of unexpected consequences. I want that shit to stop. IMO, Bernie >> Hillary on this score.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 11:09:31 PM by Malaysia41 »

vern

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #437 on: February 10, 2016, 11:58:31 PM »
The DNC has already decided that Hillary will be the winner.

It doesn't matter how many states Bernie wins, they will hand it to her with the "superdelegates".


Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #438 on: February 11, 2016, 12:28:04 AM »
The DNC has already decided that Hillary will be the winner.

It doesn't matter how many states Bernie wins, they will hand it to her with the "superdelegates".
wow, I just read a brief description of democratic superdelegates, and they are way different from republican delegates, there are only 3 republican superdelegates per state totaling less than 200 and they now have to vote the way their state votes, their are over 700 democratic superdelegates and they can vote however they want, crazy

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #439 on: February 11, 2016, 12:28:21 AM »
breaking news, no more Chris Christie or O'Malley in the race for pres

Cressida

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #440 on: February 11, 2016, 12:42:26 AM »
But Cressida, that guy works at the Krusty Krab! 

He doesn't pull the weight of Gloria Steinem.  On second thought, Mr. Krabs is quite the mustachian. Maybe we should give him an ear.

I think the point is that Gloria Steinem and Madeline Albright are high profile endorsers, who I would imagine Hillary is counting on for support. They're failing her. Krusty Krab guy ain't in their league, and I doubt Bernie is relying on his endorsement.

That said, yeah, I get that these were gaffes, and I can get over it. I just couldn't believe what I was reading, then I went and double checked and yep - that's what they said. It reinforces the idiotic comments Hillary made about not being establishment because, as a woman, that would be impossible.  *what?*

Well then, there's also the point that Steinem's and Albright's comments, while perhaps ill-judged, are not grossly hateful, in contrast to the Berniebro I linked to.

So on the one hand we have no-name assholes spewing grossly offensive sexist bullshit, and on the other hand we have powerful well-known women defending their candidate and making statements that sound kind of ill-considered (if somewhat less so out of context). If you're trying to balance power and wrongness, maybe they come out approximately equal.

I just don't think pointing at statements of a candidate's supporters is any kind of gotcha.

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #441 on: February 11, 2016, 12:47:58 AM »
I just don't think pointing at statements of a candidate's supporters is any kind of gotcha.

Agreed, and noted. What can I say, the comments blipped large on my radar. Carry on.

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #442 on: February 11, 2016, 01:07:12 AM »
The DNC has already decided that Hillary will be the winner.

It doesn't matter how many states Bernie wins, they will hand it to her with the "superdelegates".
wow, I just read a brief description of democratic superdelegates, and they are way different from republican delegates, there are only 3 republican superdelegates per state totaling less than 200 and they now have to vote the way their state votes, their are over 700 democratic superdelegates and they can vote however they want, crazy
Relevant article that explains it well - correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just now coming up to speed on superdelegates myself..
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 01:08:48 AM by Malaysia41 »

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #443 on: February 11, 2016, 06:03:08 AM »
But Cressida, that guy works at the Krusty Krab! 

He doesn't pull the weight of Gloria Steinem.  On second thought, Mr. Krabs is quite the mustachian. Maybe we should give him an ear.

I think the point is that Gloria Steinem and Madeline Albright are high profile endorsers, who I would imagine Hillary is counting on for support. They're failing her. Krusty Krab guy ain't in their league, and I doubt Bernie is relying on his endorsement.

That said, yeah, I get that these were gaffes, and I can get over it. I just couldn't believe what I was reading, then I went and double checked and yep - that's what they said. It reinforces the idiotic comments Hillary made about not being establishment because, as a woman, that would be impossible.  *what?*

This.  And the fact that Gloria and Madeleine, I believe, were sent out by,or at least with the encouragement of, the HRC campaign to entreat women to vote for Hillary.

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #444 on: February 11, 2016, 06:10:22 AM »
Honestly, I have been mostly on the fence re Bernie vs. Hillary.  They are such different candidates, and though I agree in so many ways with Bernie about domestic issues, I am not very comfortable with him in terms of foreign policy experience. 

I'm of the opposite opinion. On foreign policy, Bernie >> Hillary. Here's why.

1. Bernie's been on the right side of just about every major foreign policy debate going back to Nicaragua under Reagan. I get the impression that the man honestly evaluates the facts before making hasty decisions, at least that's the impression I get from reading about his time in the Senate, HoR, and as Mayor of Burlington. And that's a quality I want in someone directing foreign policy.

2. Hillary seems to be a continuation of the long tradition of foreign policy thinking that stretches back to WW2. Since the Dulles brothers under Eisenhower, we've had Sec of States, Directors of CIA and various white house advisors, who've recommended vigorous action without doing their homework*. With Hillary's track record as Sec of State, she seems to me to be a military hawk. Her handling of Libya was hasty. From what I have read, she knew what she wanted to do before doing her homework. Right in line with  Kissinger or John Foster Dulles**. I see her as more of the same. To be fair, Iran deal seemed somewhat better thought out, and planned, and may turn out okay, so there is hope there.

Yes, perhaps I'm unfairly ascribing all the transgressions of the past on Hillary. I'm aware of this. But I don't see her as a bastion of clear eyed analytical and logical thinking when it comes to foreign policy. Experienced? Yes. Biased? Yes.

The thing is, lately I've been wondering which candidate will be the most likely to be sure of his/her facts before taking action. It certainly ain't Carly Fiorina. I think she still believes those planned parenthood videos represented reality. But no need to worry about her as she'll be out soon. It ain't Trump. That guy calls it from the gut, which sometimes works out, but often won't. Oh I shudder to think of it. Hillary, well, I think she's in the middle. But Bernie seems better suited to the job. He seems the most willing to evaluate facts before jumping to conclusions.

*These leaders not only failed to combat confirmation bias, but seem to have not comprehended its existence. They formed opinions of who the bad guys were, what should be done, and then cherry-picked data, real or imagined, to support their proposals. And the consequences have been tragic. There's a long list of examples, I'd recommend starting with Iran's Mossedegh 1953, Guatamala's Arbenz 1954, and Chile's Allende, 1973. (but wait, there's MORE! Congo, Dominican Republic, Iraq, Pakistan, Nicaragua, ...).  The common theme in these grave and meddlesome activities, is that our leaders, who we trusted with all that power, didn't appreciate the importance of double checking their facts, seeking out dissenting opinions, or striving to understand reality before approving military action that cost lives. Many lives. Too many lives. These people, highly educated people, authorized, or pushed their presidents to authorize, often illegal, usually covert actions that largely contributed to the shit storms the middle east (and parts of Latin America) are in today.

** The worst offenders I've come across in terms of pursing a strategy without doing their homework: Nixon, George W Bush, Henry Kissinger, William J Casey, the Dulles brothers, all the neocons (Paul Wolfowitz, I. Krystall, Doug Feith).

Sorry for the long, footnoted post. Lately I've been obsessing on post-WWII foreign policy of the US, and just about at every turn I am gobsmacked to learn how little homework was done before ordering actions that, in retrospect, have resulted in tragedies of unexpected consequences. I want that shit to stop. IMO, Bernie >> Hillary on this score.

Legitmate points. Thanks for writing this.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #445 on: February 11, 2016, 06:45:29 AM »
Honestly, I have been mostly on the fence re Bernie vs. Hillary.  They are such different candidates, and though I agree in so many ways with Bernie about domestic issues, I am not very comfortable with him in terms of foreign policy experience. 

I'm of the opposite opinion. On foreign policy, Bernie >> Hillary. Here's why.

1. Bernie's been on the right side of just about every major foreign policy debate going back to Nicaragua under Reagan. I get the impression that the man honestly evaluates the facts before making hasty decisions, at least that's the impression I get from reading about his time in the Senate, HoR, and as Mayor of Burlington. And that's a quality I want in someone directing foreign policy.

2. Hillary seems to be a continuation of the long tradition of foreign policy thinking that stretches back to WW2. Since the Dulles brothers under Eisenhower, we've had Sec of States, Directors of CIA and various white house advisors, who've recommended vigorous action without doing their homework*. With Hillary's track record as Sec of State, she seems to me to be a military hawk. Her handling of Libya was hasty. From what I have read, she knew what she wanted to do before doing her homework. Right in line with  Kissinger or John Foster Dulles**. I see her as more of the same. To be fair, Iran deal seemed somewhat better thought out, and planned, and may turn out okay, so there is hope there.

Yes, perhaps I'm unfairly ascribing all the transgressions of the past on Hillary. I'm aware of this. But I don't see her as a bastion of clear eyed analytical and logical thinking when it comes to foreign policy. Experienced? Yes. Biased? Yes.

The thing is, lately I've been wondering which candidate will be the most likely to be sure of his/her facts before taking action. It certainly ain't Carly Fiorina. I think she still believes those planned parenthood videos represented reality. But no need to worry about her as she'll be out soon. It ain't Trump. That guy calls it from the gut, which sometimes works out, but often won't. Oh I shudder to think of it. Hillary, well, I think she's in the middle. But Bernie seems better suited to the job. He seems the most willing to evaluate facts before jumping to conclusions.

*These leaders not only failed to combat confirmation bias, but seem to have not comprehended its existence. They formed opinions of who the bad guys were, what should be done, and then cherry-picked data, real or imagined, to support their proposals. And the consequences have been tragic. There's a long list of examples, I'd recommend starting with Iran's Mossedegh 1953, Guatamala's Arbenz 1954, and Chile's Allende, 1973. (but wait, there's MORE! Congo, Dominican Republic, Iraq, Pakistan, Nicaragua, ...).  The common theme in these grave and meddlesome activities, is that our leaders, who we trusted with all that power, didn't appreciate the importance of double checking their facts, seeking out dissenting opinions, or striving to understand reality before approving military action that cost lives. Many lives. Too many lives. These people, highly educated people, authorized, or pushed their presidents to authorize, often illegal, usually covert actions that largely contributed to the shit storms the middle east (and parts of Latin America) are in today.

** The worst offenders I've come across in terms of pursing a strategy without doing their homework: Nixon, George W Bush, Henry Kissinger, William J Casey, the Dulles brothers, all the neocons (Paul Wolfowitz, I. Krystall, Doug Feith).

Sorry for the long, footnoted post. Lately I've been obsessing on post-WWII foreign policy of the US, and just about at every turn I am gobsmacked to learn how little homework was done before ordering actions that, in retrospect, have resulted in tragedies of unexpected consequences. I want that shit to stop. IMO, Bernie >> Hillary on this score.

While I'm sympathetic towards a generally non-interventionist foreign policy, I'm afraid that right now any tough talking Republican would eat Sander's lunch with that platform in the general contest come next fall. Although most people seem to agree the Iraq War was a mistake, paranoia and anxiety regarding ISIS seems to be winning the day and a Democrat will need to come across pretty aggressive with a solid 'protect our nation/take the fight to them' message  to counter the Republican fear mongering and 'waterboard and carpet bomb them' posturing.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #446 on: February 11, 2016, 06:50:01 AM »
The fruits of Hillary Clinton's foreign policy experience:

Islamic State Foothold in Libya Poses Threat to Europe

RAF Flying Libyan Missions

Can Tunisia's Border Barrier Stop Extremism Entering from Libya?

Islamic State-Linked Fighters Seizing Oil-Rich Land in Libya

Ansar al Sharia claims to have downed jet flying over Derna

Note this last one: those are the guys who attacked the "consulate" in Benghazi and killed Ambassador Stevens. There's good reason to believe they have anti-aircraft capabilities (pictures of the crashed plane were shown). The US government is letting the rebellion in Syria fail because they're unwilling to give the rebels there anti-aircraft missiles for fear of them going to al-Qaeda - but Hillary's war in Libya seems to have already accomplished that!

While I'm sympathetic towards a generally non-interventionist foreign policy, I'm afraid that right now any tough talking Republican would eat Sander's lunch with that platform in the general contest come next fall. Although most people seem to agree the Iraq War was a mistake, paranoia and anxiety regarding ISIS seems to be winning the day and a Democrat will need to come across pretty aggressive with a solid 'protect our nation/take the fight to them' message  to counter the Republican fear mongering and 'waterboard and carpet bomb them' posturing.

Hillary Clinton has as much credibility as Dick Cheney on how to contain extremists.

These are the countries where al-Qaeda, IS, or Iranian-sponsored Shia extremists hold territory:
Iraq
Syria
Libya
Egypt
Saudi Arabia (yes, some Saudi towns are occupied by Yemeni proxies of Iran)
Yemen

golden1

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #447 on: February 11, 2016, 06:57:02 AM »
Sometimes I wonder if Clinton has to come across as hawkish on Foreign policy to combat the "women are to wimpy to be president" stereotype.   I am not saying that is a legit reason for her to be hawkish, but I do struggle with how much of her persona is really her beliefs vs. what she needs to project as a female in order to seem "Presidential".



dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #448 on: February 11, 2016, 07:21:35 AM »
The fruits of Hillary Clinton's foreign policy experience:

Islamic State Foothold in Libya Poses Threat to Europe

RAF Flying Libyan Missions

Can Tunisia's Border Barrier Stop Extremism Entering from Libya?

Islamic State-Linked Fighters Seizing Oil-Rich Land in Libya

Ansar al Sharia claims to have downed jet flying over Derna

Note this last one: those are the guys who attacked the "consulate" in Benghazi and killed Ambassador Stevens. There's good reason to believe they have anti-aircraft capabilities (pictures of the crashed plane were shown). The US government is letting the rebellion in Syria fail because they're unwilling to give the rebels there anti-aircraft missiles for fear of them going to al-Qaeda - but Hillary's war in Libya seems to have already accomplished that!

While I'm sympathetic towards a generally non-interventionist foreign policy, I'm afraid that right now any tough talking Republican would eat Sander's lunch with that platform in the general contest come next fall. Although most people seem to agree the Iraq War was a mistake, paranoia and anxiety regarding ISIS seems to be winning the day and a Democrat will need to come across pretty aggressive with a solid 'protect our nation/take the fight to them' message  to counter the Republican fear mongering and 'waterboard and carpet bomb them' posturing.

Hillary Clinton has as much credibility as Dick Cheney on how to contain extremists.

These are the countries where al-Qaeda, IS, or Iranian-sponsored Shia extremists hold territory:
Iraq
Syria
Libya
Egypt
Saudi Arabia (yes, some Saudi towns are occupied by Yemeni proxies of Iran)
Yemen

Well, that is your personal assessment of Clinton's past foreign policy, laying the blame for all those situations at her feet. Given the extreme volatility of that region, I'm find it difficult to argue that the situation would have been drastically better had someone else been Secretary of State. Ultimately it's rather a moot point one way or the other as I maintain the American people are currently fixated on the latest 'existential threat' of ISIS and a tough talking Hillary will be more successful than a non-interventionist Sanders against a likely rabid "take the fight to them" Republican come this next fall. It doesn't matter how much I like Sanders' non-interventionism if enough people won't vote for him.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #449 on: February 11, 2016, 07:36:08 AM »
Well, that is your personal assessment of Clinton's past foreign policy, laying the blame for all those situations at her feet. Given the extreme volatility of that region, I'm find it difficult to argue that the situation would have been drastically better had someone else been Secretary of State. Ultimately it's rather a moot point one way or the other as I maintain the American people are currently fixated on the latest 'existential threat' of ISIS and a tough talking Hillary will be more successful than a non-interventionist Sanders against a likely rabid "take the fight to them" Republican come this next fall. It doesn't matter how much I like Sanders' non-interventionism if enough people won't vote for him.

She takes credit for the intervention in Libya and counts it as a success. So it's not my opinion laying it at her feet, it's her own.

Maybe Libya would be in exactly the same position today if we hadn't bombed it to pieces. Maybe it wouldn't. But you're ignoring the moral importance of what happened - the United States killed people, living, breathing, people with feelings, mothers, and children - and accomplished nothing. Hillary Clinton learned nothing from her vote for the Iraq war.