Author Topic: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate  (Read 738882 times)

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #300 on: February 02, 2016, 05:49:37 AM »
Well, it seems we can rejoice that the electorate are slowly making their way back in the direction of reason! Cruz took first, and Trump narrowly beat Rubio for second. Also, a shout-out to Paul for 5th place, 1 delegate, 5%, and beating Jeb!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2016/primary-caucus-results/iowa (yeah, I quoted Fox, because I click on the big thing on top when Google feeds me my answers)

On another note, I still don't understand why some people are so repulsed by Cruz. I went along with the general wisdom of Reddit (pardon the oxymoron) that Cruz was insane, but on watching plenty of videos I just didn't see it. He seemed ruthless and uncompromising, but well-reasoned and articulate. Maybe people don't like that he has nothing but enemies, but the thought of nothing getting done doesn't bother me at all.

Have you seen his duck hunting video? It's in the crazy category.


dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #301 on: February 02, 2016, 07:00:42 AM »
Cruz is partnered with the extreme 'conservative' ideologues. Their attitude is our way or no way. They want to take the government back to the gilded age and no means towards that end is too extreme. Cruz was the instigator in the failed government shutdown hoping to somehow blackmail Obama into agreeing to end Obamacare. Cruz wanted to do the same thing in regards to the debt ceiling, forcing everyone else in government to capitulate to his demands or else the government would default on its debt. Forget bipartisanship, Cruz couldn't even work with members of his own party in the Senate, often attacking them and calling them liars and liberals because they actually wanted to get things done and because attacking them was a way to make himself look good to the ideologues he championed. The result is that almost every Republican Senator hates Cruz and NO Republican Senator has endorsed him.

GuitarStv

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #302 on: February 02, 2016, 08:29:36 AM »
Cruz wants to abolish the IRS and implement a regressive flat tax.  That's pretty crazy just there.

wenchsenior

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #303 on: February 02, 2016, 08:52:24 AM »
The really interesting thing to watch right now is the fighting within the established GOP over whether Trump or Cruz would be more disastrous for the the Republican brand long term. The National Review has rounded up a ton of non-politician think-tanky types and pundits to push for Cruz over Trump, because they (very reasonably IMO) point out that Trump is not a conservative, and would therefore substantially damage their party in terms of what it is fundamentally viewed to represent, regardless of whether or not Trump could win a general. The National Review position is that although Cruz probably would lose big in the general election, at least the GOP's long term integrity is upheld, and they live to await their next Reagan and fight the good fight another day.

On the other hand, most of the active GOP politicians (gov's, and congress apart from the hard core Tea Party types) and most of the establishment donors would rather support Trump over Cruz. Pretty much everyone who actually works with Cruz hates him, and their personal animosity is probably driving some of this. But also, the establishment just wants the country to continue to run more or less on the same track it has been, since they profit from that. And they view Trump as 'manageable' and a practical deal-maker; and Cruz as a radical.

Very engaging to watch this play out.

infogoon

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #304 on: February 02, 2016, 09:05:58 AM »
I never thought I'd see the day that the National Review called on Glenn Beck to defend establishment Republicanism.

beltim

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #305 on: February 02, 2016, 09:12:12 AM »
On the other hand, most of the active GOP politicians (gov's, and congress apart from the hard core Tea Party types) and most of the establishment donors would rather support Trump over Cruz. Pretty much everyone who actually works with Cruz hates him, and their personal animosity is probably driving some of this. But also, the establishment just wants the country to continue to run more or less on the same track it has been, since they profit from that. And they view Trump as 'manageable' and a practical deal-maker; and Cruz as a radical.

Very engaging to watch this play out.

I'm not so sure about this.  Judging from endorsements, the "establishment Republicans" – Bush, Rubio, Christie, Kasich – have much more support than Ted Cruz from the establishment, who in turn has much more support from the establishment than Trump:
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-endorsement-primary/

brett2k07

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #306 on: February 02, 2016, 09:12:42 AM »
Cruz is partnered with the extreme 'conservative' ideologues. Their attitude is our way or no way. They want to take the government back to the gilded age and no means towards that end is too extreme. Cruz was the instigator in the failed government shutdown hoping to somehow blackmail Obama into agreeing to end Obamacare. Cruz wanted to do the same thing in regards to the debt ceiling, forcing everyone else in government to capitulate to his demands or else the government would default on its debt. Forget bipartisanship, Cruz couldn't even work with members of his own party in the Senate, often attacking them and calling them liars and liberals because they actually wanted to get things done and because attacking them was a way to make himself look good to the ideologues he championed. The result is that almost every Republican Senator hates Cruz and NO Republican Senator has endorsed him.

Considering the fastest economic growth in U.S. history occurred during the Gilded Age, it might not be a bad thing to go back to. At least in terms of economic policy.

I always find it funny when people say that Congress is blackmailing the President like it's a bad thing. That's what they're supposed to do. We have a separation of powers for a reason. If Congress just went along with the President all of the time we might as well just abolish Congress altogether and let the President have free reign. They're supposed to use the power of the purse to put pressure on the President to sign certain legislation he may not be particularly fond of. It's called politics, not blackmail.

And while Republicans often get blamed for government shutdowns, the root cause can actually be traced back to Harry Reid and the Democrat controlled Senate of 2008. During Harry Reid's term as the majority leader, the U.S. Senate did not pass an annual budget. In fact, Harry Reid even refused to bring one to vote for several years. As a result, the U.S. has been operating on these continuing resolutions that need to be voted on every 3 to 6 months. This forces members of Congress to try and air out their woes and convince others to see it their way and vote on spending changes when they're up against a hard deadline with default pending. Usually they'd have anywhere from 8-10 months to try and work with their fellow Congressmen and women to come up with spending cuts and spending increases that both parties can reasonably agree to. I must admit it was a brilliant political strategy on the part of Harry Reid. Don't pass a budget and force these continuing resolutions. Every time it comes up for a vote, hold your ground and refuse to make any changes, then blame the other party for being willing to shutdown the government. Unfortunately, that's no way to run a country and it's also extremely poor leadership. So I don't blame Ted Cruz for a government shutdown.

In fact, I wish he would have been able to hold his ground even longer. Obamacare has proven to be a terrible piece of legislation. It's been much more costly than anticipated for the average American. Most have seen their premiums skyrocket making health insurance unaffordable. Some of the largest health insurance companies in the country like Blue Cross Blue Shield, United Health, and Aetna, have all expressed concerns about the sustainability of the exchanges. Blue cross exited several exchanges across the country back in October. United Health has indicated they may leave the exchanges all together. All of these result in less competition within the exchanges and often results in higher premiums because the larger insurance companies tend to be able to absorb some of the costs better than smaller companies. It really is awful. Perhaps instead of vilifying Cruz, we should be commending him for his vision and asking other Senators to stand with him to try and fix this mess?

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #307 on: February 02, 2016, 09:28:11 AM »
Cruz is partnered with the extreme 'conservative' ideologues. Their attitude is our way or no way. They want to take the government back to the gilded age and no means towards that end is too extreme. Cruz was the instigator in the failed government shutdown hoping to somehow blackmail Obama into agreeing to end Obamacare. Cruz wanted to do the same thing in regards to the debt ceiling, forcing everyone else in government to capitulate to his demands or else the government would default on its debt. Forget bipartisanship, Cruz couldn't even work with members of his own party in the Senate, often attacking them and calling them liars and liberals because they actually wanted to get things done and because attacking them was a way to make himself look good to the ideologues he championed. The result is that almost every Republican Senator hates Cruz and NO Republican Senator has endorsed him.

I always find it funny when people say that Congress is blackmailing the President like it's a bad thing. That's what they're supposed to do. We have a separation of powers for a reason. If Congress just went along with the President all of the time we might as well just abolish Congress altogether and let the President have free reign. They're supposed to use the power of the purse to put pressure on the President to sign certain legislation he may not be particularly fond of. It's called politics, not blackmail.

You really think government is supposed to function by having one branch blackmail the other? That's a total perversion of the separation of powers. It takes what is supposed to be a check on the other branch's power and upends it seeking to use it to coerce total capitulation on the part of the other branch. It would like Obama threatening to VETO every single piece of legislation unless the Republican Congress passed the exact bill that he wanted. Actually that IS something the nutball governor LePage threatened to do in Maine. While it's technically possible, it would not only be stupid but would quickly bring all government to a grinding halt. Maybe some people think that is a great idea, but I do not and that's why I totally oppose Cruz who DOES think its a good idea.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #308 on: February 02, 2016, 10:19:37 AM »
Well, it seems we can rejoice that the electorate are slowly making their way back in the direction of reason! Cruz took first, and Trump narrowly beat Rubio for second. Also, a shout-out to Paul for 5th place, 1 delegate, 5%, and beating Jeb!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2016/primary-caucus-results/iowa (yeah, I quoted Fox, because I click on the big thing on top when Google feeds me my answers)

On another note, I still don't understand why some people are so repulsed by Cruz. I went along with the general wisdom of Reddit (pardon the oxymoron) that Cruz was insane, but on watching plenty of videos I just didn't see it. He seemed ruthless and uncompromising, but well-reasoned and articulate. Maybe people don't like that he has nothing but enemies, but the thought of nothing getting done doesn't bother me at all.
But for all intensive purposes Paul tied Jeb as they both got 1 delegate. I was hoping Rand would do slightly better, but he did do better than expected anyways.
Cruz wants to abolish the IRS and implement a regressive flat tax.  That's pretty crazy just there.
I agree Cruz is crazy, but to be fair, a lot of candidates want to do this, including Ben Carson, Rand Paul, and Cruz, and I think more.
No one is talking about how Sanders basically tied Clinton, I thought that was pretty crazy, of the top 5 candidates, Trump, Cruz, Rubio, Clinton, and Sanders, I think I would prefer Rubio? although I think they are all shitty options

aFrugalFather

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #309 on: February 02, 2016, 10:42:44 AM »
No one is talking about how Sanders basically tied Clinton, I thought that was pretty crazy

I thought it was crazy he didn't win straight out with a bigger lead as well, but at least there is NH.

wenchsenior

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #310 on: February 02, 2016, 10:57:28 AM »
On the other hand, most of the active GOP politicians (gov's, and congress apart from the hard core Tea Party types) and most of the establishment donors would rather support Trump over Cruz. Pretty much everyone who actually works with Cruz hates him, and their personal animosity is probably driving some of this. But also, the establishment just wants the country to continue to run more or less on the same track it has been, since they profit from that. And they view Trump as 'manageable' and a practical deal-maker; and Cruz as a radical.

Very engaging to watch this play out.

I'm not so sure about this.  Judging from endorsements, the "establishment Republicans" – Bush, Rubio, Christie, Kasich – have much more support than Ted Cruz from the establishment, who in turn has much more support from the establishment than Trump:
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-endorsement-primary/

Yes, that's true. I wasn't clear. I meant that the GOP is fighting over who to support among the two front-runners, assuming they continue to run away with the votes.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #311 on: February 02, 2016, 11:06:53 AM »
Cruz is partnered with the extreme 'conservative' ideologues. Their attitude is our way or no way. They want to take the government back to the gilded age and no means towards that end is too extreme. Cruz was the instigator in the failed government shutdown hoping to somehow blackmail Obama into agreeing to end Obamacare. Cruz wanted to do the same thing in regards to the debt ceiling, forcing everyone else in government to capitulate to his demands or else the government would default on its debt. Forget bipartisanship, Cruz couldn't even work with members of his own party in the Senate, often attacking them and calling them liars and liberals because they actually wanted to get things done and because attacking them was a way to make himself look good to the ideologues he championed. The result is that almost every Republican Senator hates Cruz and NO Republican Senator has endorsed him.

Considering the fastest economic growth in U.S. history occurred during the Gilded Age, it might not be a bad thing to go back to. At least in terms of economic policy.

I always find it funny when people say that Congress is blackmailing the President like it's a bad thing. That's what they're supposed to do. We have a separation of powers for a reason. If Congress just went along with the President all of the time we might as well just abolish Congress altogether and let the President have free reign. They're supposed to use the power of the purse to put pressure on the President to sign certain legislation he may not be particularly fond of. It's called politics, not blackmail.

And while Republicans often get blamed for government shutdowns, the root cause can actually be traced back to Harry Reid and the Democrat controlled Senate of 2008. During Harry Reid's term as the majority leader, the U.S. Senate did not pass an annual budget. In fact, Harry Reid even refused to bring one to vote for several years. As a result, the U.S. has been operating on these continuing resolutions that need to be voted on every 3 to 6 months. This forces members of Congress to try and air out their woes and convince others to see it their way and vote on spending changes when they're up against a hard deadline with default pending. Usually they'd have anywhere from 8-10 months to try and work with their fellow Congressmen and women to come up with spending cuts and spending increases that both parties can reasonably agree to. I must admit it was a brilliant political strategy on the part of Harry Reid. Don't pass a budget and force these continuing resolutions. Every time it comes up for a vote, hold your ground and refuse to make any changes, then blame the other party for being willing to shutdown the government. Unfortunately, that's no way to run a country and it's also extremely poor leadership. So I don't blame Ted Cruz for a government shutdown.

In fact, I wish he would have been able to hold his ground even longer. Obamacare has proven to be a terrible piece of legislation. It's been much more costly than anticipated for the average American. Most have seen their premiums skyrocket making health insurance unaffordable. Some of the largest health insurance companies in the country like Blue Cross Blue Shield, United Health, and Aetna, have all expressed concerns about the sustainability of the exchanges. Blue cross exited several exchanges across the country back in October. United Health has indicated they may leave the exchanges all together. All of these result in less competition within the exchanges and often results in higher premiums because the larger insurance companies tend to be able to absorb some of the costs better than smaller companies. It really is awful. Perhaps instead of vilifying Cruz, we should be commending him for his vision and asking other Senators to stand with him to try and fix this mess?

+1, I wanted to say something but you said it much better.

Too, when you pass something as monumental as the ACA you better have a bigger consensus that what the Dems had at the time. They should have campaigned more on this or go at least a few Republicans to go along with it, but more likely to have waited a few more years. I know some will say it was to save people's lives or was necessary or whatever but this political blow back was to be expected.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #312 on: February 02, 2016, 11:18:11 AM »
Well, it seems we can rejoice that the electorate are slowly making their way back in the direction of reason! Cruz took first, and Trump narrowly beat Rubio for second. Also, a shout-out to Paul for 5th place, 1 delegate, 5%, and beating Jeb!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2016/primary-caucus-results/iowa (yeah, I quoted Fox, because I click on the big thing on top when Google feeds me my answers)

On another note, I still don't understand why some people are so repulsed by Cruz. I went along with the general wisdom of Reddit (pardon the oxymoron) that Cruz was insane, but on watching plenty of videos I just didn't see it. He seemed ruthless and uncompromising, but well-reasoned and articulate. Maybe people don't like that he has nothing but enemies, but the thought of nothing getting done doesn't bother me at all.
But for all intensive purposes Paul tied Jeb as they both got 1 delegate. I was hoping Rand would do slightly better, but he did do better than expected anyways.
Cruz wants to abolish the IRS and implement a regressive flat tax.  That's pretty crazy just there.
I agree Cruz is crazy, but to be fair, a lot of candidates want to do this, including Ben Carson, Rand Paul, and Cruz, and I think more.
No one is talking about how Sanders basically tied Clinton, I thought that was pretty crazy, of the top 5 candidates, Trump, Cruz, Rubio, Clinton, and Sanders, I think I would prefer Rubio? although I think they are all shitty options

This was pretty suprising to me as well, I thought he would finish well below her, at least enough for her campaign to consider it a 'victory'. seems like SC will be a firewall for several of the candidates.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #313 on: February 02, 2016, 11:23:07 AM »
Cruz is partnered with the extreme 'conservative' ideologues. Their attitude is our way or no way. They want to take the government back to the gilded age and no means towards that end is too extreme. Cruz was the instigator in the failed government shutdown hoping to somehow blackmail Obama into agreeing to end Obamacare. Cruz wanted to do the same thing in regards to the debt ceiling, forcing everyone else in government to capitulate to his demands or else the government would default on its debt. Forget bipartisanship, Cruz couldn't even work with members of his own party in the Senate, often attacking them and calling them liars and liberals because they actually wanted to get things done and because attacking them was a way to make himself look good to the ideologues he championed. The result is that almost every Republican Senator hates Cruz and NO Republican Senator has endorsed him.

Considering the fastest economic growth in U.S. history occurred during the Gilded Age, it might not be a bad thing to go back to. At least in terms of economic policy.

I always find it funny when people say that Congress is blackmailing the President like it's a bad thing. That's what they're supposed to do. We have a separation of powers for a reason. If Congress just went along with the President all of the time we might as well just abolish Congress altogether and let the President have free reign. They're supposed to use the power of the purse to put pressure on the President to sign certain legislation he may not be particularly fond of. It's called politics, not blackmail.

And while Republicans often get blamed for government shutdowns, the root cause can actually be traced back to Harry Reid and the Democrat controlled Senate of 2008. During Harry Reid's term as the majority leader, the U.S. Senate did not pass an annual budget. In fact, Harry Reid even refused to bring one to vote for several years. As a result, the U.S. has been operating on these continuing resolutions that need to be voted on every 3 to 6 months. This forces members of Congress to try and air out their woes and convince others to see it their way and vote on spending changes when they're up against a hard deadline with default pending. Usually they'd have anywhere from 8-10 months to try and work with their fellow Congressmen and women to come up with spending cuts and spending increases that both parties can reasonably agree to. I must admit it was a brilliant political strategy on the part of Harry Reid. Don't pass a budget and force these continuing resolutions. Every time it comes up for a vote, hold your ground and refuse to make any changes, then blame the other party for being willing to shutdown the government. Unfortunately, that's no way to run a country and it's also extremely poor leadership. So I don't blame Ted Cruz for a government shutdown.

In fact, I wish he would have been able to hold his ground even longer. Obamacare has proven to be a terrible piece of legislation. It's been much more costly than anticipated for the average American. Most have seen their premiums skyrocket making health insurance unaffordable. Some of the largest health insurance companies in the country like Blue Cross Blue Shield, United Health, and Aetna, have all expressed concerns about the sustainability of the exchanges. Blue cross exited several exchanges across the country back in October. United Health has indicated they may leave the exchanges all together. All of these result in less competition within the exchanges and often results in higher premiums because the larger insurance companies tend to be able to absorb some of the costs better than smaller companies. It really is awful. Perhaps instead of vilifying Cruz, we should be commending him for his vision and asking other Senators to stand with him to try and fix this mess?

+1, I wanted to say something but you said it much better.

Too, when you pass something as monumental as the ACA you better have a bigger consensus that what the Dems had at the time. They should have campaigned more on this or go at least a few Republicans to go along with it, but more likely to have waited a few more years. I know some will say it was to save people's lives or was necessary or whatever but this political blow back was to be expected.

Political blow back is one thing. Putting a gun to the nation's head is another. The one benefit is that it revealed just how dangerously deranged people like Cruz are. Hopefully if he does get the Republican nomination enough non-extremists will see his record and reject that for their future president. If you don't like a law, you get the votes to repeal it. If you don't have the votes you work to get them via elections. That's how Democrats got the votes to enact the ACA in the first place. What you don't do is hold the country hostage until everyone capitulates to your demands. Thank god it didn't work because once one party succeeds with that strategy, we would be on the road to complete institutional breakdown.

Jack

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #314 on: February 02, 2016, 11:44:12 AM »
I always find it funny when people say that Congress is blackmailing the President like it's a bad thing. That's what they're supposed to do. We have a separation of powers for a reason. If Congress just went along with the President all of the time we might as well just abolish Congress altogether and let the President have free reign. They're supposed to use the power of the purse to put pressure on the President to sign certain legislation he may not be particularly fond of. It's called politics, not blackmail.

Refusing to agree with the President on a particular issue is normal politics, but throwing a tantrum and refusing to pass unrelated legislation about Issue B because you're pissed off about Issue A absolutely is blackmail.

On a related note, you'd think people like Cruz who call themselves "conservative" would support things like the One Subject at a Time Act, but they don't because they're goddamn hypocrites.

infogoon

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #315 on: February 02, 2016, 11:45:59 AM »
I think one of the most telling things about Cruz is that there doesn't seem to be another Senator who can stand him at all. He's only a first-termer, and he's already alienated so many of his peers that he's reduced to rabblerousing at the kid's table in the House with the Tea Party loons.

sol

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #316 on: February 02, 2016, 11:51:20 AM »
Cruz is a guaranteed loser in the general, for a variety of reasons.  Trump at least had an outside chance of exploiting people's fear and stupidity to take the white house. 

Rubio is the only credible threat to a third Democratic term, but he's had to tack so far right for the primary that he's probably sunk himself in the general too. 

I expect the next four years will look an awful lot like the last four.  Congress will obstruct.  A Democratic president will continue the Bush era foreign policy.  The economy will chug along. 

Everyone take a deep breath, it will be fine.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #317 on: February 02, 2016, 12:00:31 PM »
Cruz is a guaranteed loser in the general, for a variety of reasons.  Trump at least had an outside chance of exploiting people's fear and stupidity to take the white house. 

Rubio is the only credible threat to a third Democratic term, but he's had to tack so far right for the primary that he's probably sunk himself in the general too. 

I expect the next four years will look an awful lot like the last four.  Congress will obstruct.  A Democratic president will continue the Bush era foreign policy. The economy will chug along. 

Everyone take a deep breath, it will be fine.


This is becoming my dream. Bernie will win. Congress will not pass anything he wants (Dems will vote against him too) but everything will be fine.

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MDM

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #320 on: February 02, 2016, 02:18:40 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaZGaJrd3x8

Didn't know Cruz was so mustachian - saving money by combining cooking with pleasure! ;)

RangerOne

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #321 on: February 02, 2016, 03:38:28 PM »
I really hope  Cruz or Trump loose a general, but I don't really even want to see them come that close. Cruz is derange and Trump is giving legitimacy to peoples hate and racism, which is absolutely something we don't want to encourage at the presidential level.

At this point I would prefer to see Rubio get the nomination, I am still not a fan of most of the Republican agenda but he seems a much better option than the other two.

The Hillary and Bernie race is great, I wonder if O'malley had dropped out sooner if Bernie would have picked up most of his 0.5% to win. Props to him for hanging in there and gracefully stepping aside. If it weren't for the Clinton power house and Bernie sucking up all the free oxygen around her he might have had a chance.


Jack

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #322 on: February 02, 2016, 04:18:53 PM »
I really hope  Cruz or Trump loose a general, but I don't really even want to see them come that close. Cruz is derange and Trump is giving legitimacy to peoples hate and racism, which is absolutely something we don't want to encourage at the presidential level.

At this point I would prefer to see Rubio get the nomination, I am still not a fan of most of the Republican agenda but he seems a much better option than the other two.

On one hand, I agree with you about the "hate and racism" angle on Trump. On the other hand, I'm still suspicious that he might be executing the most epic long con in the history of the world -- I'm half-expecting him to win the Republican primary, then come out and say "Ha ha, dumbasses! Did you really believe all that ridiculous shit I said? I'm a liberal and always have been!"

Even if it isn't a con, I'd still almost like to see Trump get the nomination just so that he could get curb-stomped by Bernie in the general. Only "almost" though, because the situation would be incredibly risky.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #323 on: February 02, 2016, 10:12:12 PM »

This is becoming my dream. Bernie will win. Congress will not pass anything he wants (Dems will vote against him too) but everything will be fine.

Now that's gridlock I can believe in!

Gridlock is the second most libertarian option in the election right now (after Rand Paul), and I'm almost to the point that I'd vote for it in the general. Problem is, it's hard to figure out who will deliver on that when no one's promising it.

On another note, Rubio's being given the best odds by far of winning the Republican nomination.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #324 on: February 03, 2016, 05:42:21 AM »
Rubio is the only credible threat to a third Democratic term, but he's had to tack so far right for the primary that he's probably sunk himself in the general too. 

I think Rubio has a much better chance in the general against both Clinton and Sanders. The RealClearPolitics average has Rubio beating Clinton by 2.5% and Sanders by 1%. He's the only candidate to beat both of them. They have Trump losing to both Clinton and Sanders and Cruz only beats Clinton and his victory margin is only 1.3%. If people are concerned about winning, Trump is definitely not the guy. I think he splits the party more than unites it. People like me will not vote for that man if he gets the nomination. I'll write-in a candidate before I vote for him. I could vote for Cruz, but I think we lose a lot of the moderate and independent votes if he gets the nomination.

I am personally a big Rubio fan. I defend Cruz a lot in conversations with people because I feel he gets a lot of undeserved flack (see above about the government shutdowns) but he's not my first choice. Rubio still conservative enough that the establishment don't really like him all that much, but they're at least willing to work with him on a majority of issues. I was really excited when I was watching the results of the Iowa caucus. I was so hoping he would overtake Trump and finish second. I think if we can get some of these other candidates like Santorum, Christie, and Jeb to just drop out already I think his chances of winning the nomination go up.

I would just like to see a conservative get into the White House and remove some of the red tape and bureaucracy that we currently have. The VA is the example I point to the most because I have personal experience in dealing with them. The crap we put our veterans through is ridiculous and unnecessary. I have zero faith that Trump would do any of that. If anything, I think he would make it worse. I'm pretty sure Cruz would at least try, though Congress may not go through with some of the changes he proposes. I think Rubio would do it to a degree and I think he probably has the best chance overall of getting Congress approval as well.

Not to mention he's charismatic, well spoken, and his life story seems to be very relatable for a lot of people.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #325 on: February 03, 2016, 07:03:05 AM »
Rubio is the only credible threat to a third Democratic term, but he's had to tack so far right for the primary that he's probably sunk himself in the general too. 

I think Rubio has a much better chance in the general against both Clinton and Sanders. The RealClearPolitics average has Rubio beating Clinton by 2.5% and Sanders by 1%. He's the only candidate to beat both of them. They have Trump losing to both Clinton and Sanders and Cruz only beats Clinton and his victory margin is only 1.3%. If people are concerned about winning, Trump is definitely not the guy. I think he splits the party more than unites it. People like me will not vote for that man if he gets the nomination. I'll write-in a candidate before I vote for him. I could vote for Cruz, but I think we lose a lot of the moderate and independent votes if he gets the nomination.

I am personally a big Rubio fan. I defend Cruz a lot in conversations with people because I feel he gets a lot of undeserved flack (see above about the government shutdowns) but he's not my first choice. Rubio still conservative enough that the establishment don't really like him all that much, but they're at least willing to work with him on a majority of issues. I was really excited when I was watching the results of the Iowa caucus. I was so hoping he would overtake Trump and finish second. I think if we can get some of these other candidates like Santorum, Christie, and Jeb to just drop out already I think his chances of winning the nomination go up.

I would just like to see a conservative get into the White House and remove some of the red tape and bureaucracy that we currently have. The VA is the example I point to the most because I have personal experience in dealing with them. The crap we put our veterans through is ridiculous and unnecessary. I have zero faith that Trump would do any of that. If anything, I think he would make it worse. I'm pretty sure Cruz would at least try, though Congress may not go through with some of the changes he proposes. I think Rubio would do it to a degree and I think he probably has the best chance overall of getting Congress approval as well.

Not to mention he's charismatic, well spoken, and his life story seems to be very relatable for a lot of people.
Except that there is a large chance Trump will say that the GOP did not respect him enough and run as an independent.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #326 on: February 03, 2016, 07:30:17 AM »
Rubio is the only credible threat to a third Democratic term, but he's had to tack so far right for the primary that he's probably sunk himself in the general too. 

I think Rubio has a much better chance in the general against both Clinton and Sanders. The RealClearPolitics average has Rubio beating Clinton by 2.5% and Sanders by 1%. He's the only candidate to beat both of them. They have Trump losing to both Clinton and Sanders and Cruz only beats Clinton and his victory margin is only 1.3%. If people are concerned about winning, Trump is definitely not the guy. I think he splits the party more than unites it. People like me will not vote for that man if he gets the nomination. I'll write-in a candidate before I vote for him. I could vote for Cruz, but I think we lose a lot of the moderate and independent votes if he gets the nomination.

I am personally a big Rubio fan. I defend Cruz a lot in conversations with people because I feel he gets a lot of undeserved flack (see above about the government shutdowns) but he's not my first choice. Rubio still conservative enough that the establishment don't really like him all that much, but they're at least willing to work with him on a majority of issues. I was really excited when I was watching the results of the Iowa caucus. I was so hoping he would overtake Trump and finish second. I think if we can get some of these other candidates like Santorum, Christie, and Jeb to just drop out already I think his chances of winning the nomination go up.

I would just like to see a conservative get into the White House and remove some of the red tape and bureaucracy that we currently have. The VA is the example I point to the most because I have personal experience in dealing with them. The crap we put our veterans through is ridiculous and unnecessary. I have zero faith that Trump would do any of that. If anything, I think he would make it worse. I'm pretty sure Cruz would at least try, though Congress may not go through with some of the changes he proposes. I think Rubio would do it to a degree and I think he probably has the best chance overall of getting Congress approval as well.

Not to mention he's charismatic, well spoken, and his life story seems to be very relatable for a lot of people.

I agree that Rubio is the most sane sounding of the Republican candidates. It's unfortunate that he's a climate change denier, fervent pro-lifer and 100% anti-gay marriage.

If your big issue is bureaucracy / the VA - Bernie may be your man. He cuts through that red tape and advocates for veterans. Just because he wants the government to ensure everyone gets healthcare and education doesn't mean he wants services to be delivered inefficiently.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #327 on: February 03, 2016, 08:16:32 AM »
Rubio is the only credible threat to a third Democratic term, but he's had to tack so far right for the primary that he's probably sunk himself in the general too. 

I think Rubio has a much better chance in the general against both Clinton and Sanders. The RealClearPolitics average has Rubio beating Clinton by 2.5% and Sanders by 1%. He's the only candidate to beat both of them. They have Trump losing to both Clinton and Sanders and Cruz only beats Clinton and his victory margin is only 1.3%. If people are concerned about winning, Trump is definitely not the guy. I think he splits the party more than unites it. People like me will not vote for that man if he gets the nomination. I'll write-in a candidate before I vote for him. I could vote for Cruz, but I think we lose a lot of the moderate and independent votes if he gets the nomination.

I am personally a big Rubio fan. I defend Cruz a lot in conversations with people because I feel he gets a lot of undeserved flack (see above about the government shutdowns) but he's not my first choice. Rubio still conservative enough that the establishment don't really like him all that much, but they're at least willing to work with him on a majority of issues. I was really excited when I was watching the results of the Iowa caucus. I was so hoping he would overtake Trump and finish second. I think if we can get some of these other candidates like Santorum, Christie, and Jeb to just drop out already I think his chances of winning the nomination go up.

I would just like to see a conservative get into the White House and remove some of the red tape and bureaucracy that we currently have. The VA is the example I point to the most because I have personal experience in dealing with them. The crap we put our veterans through is ridiculous and unnecessary. I have zero faith that Trump would do any of that. If anything, I think he would make it worse. I'm pretty sure Cruz would at least try, though Congress may not go through with some of the changes he proposes. I think Rubio would do it to a degree and I think he probably has the best chance overall of getting Congress approval as well.

Not to mention he's charismatic, well spoken, and his life story seems to be very relatable for a lot of people.

I agree that Rubio is the most sane sounding of the Republican candidates. It's unfortunate that he's a climate change denier, fervent pro-lifer and 100% anti-gay marriage.

If your big issue is bureaucracy / the VA - Bernie may be your man. He cuts through that red tape and advocates for veterans. Just because he wants the government to ensure everyone gets healthcare and education doesn't mean he wants services to be delivered inefficiently.

The fact that we have had complaints about bureaucracy and the VA for decades, regardless of administration and political party in charge makes me extremely skeptical of any pledge that a candidate makes to fix it. The problems are deeply ingrained and would likely take a lot of effort to address and the I imagine once a candidate is in office, they find it easier to to focus on lower hanging fruit issues.

brett2k07

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #328 on: February 03, 2016, 08:31:05 AM »
Quote
If your big issue is bureaucracy / the VA - Bernie may be your man. He cuts through that red tape and advocates for veterans. Just because he wants the government to ensure everyone gets healthcare and education doesn't mean he wants services to be delivered inefficiently.

Having worked in government finance for almost 3 years now, I have a first hand look at how inherently inefficient government is. I have much more confidence in the private market to deliver services more efficiently and to constantly innovate making services even more efficient. I look to the transportation industry as good example. Only when technology companies like Uber and Lyft came along and disrupted the market did we start seeing companies like Mears and Yellow Cab start innovating and providing better service. There's now an app for both of those companies providing convenience and efficiency to the customers. I'm seeing newer vehicles which provide a better experience for the rider. In my opinion you have to have competition like that in order to spark innovation and encourage future development. Otherwise companies get comfortable with their cash cow and don't care to move the business along the development cycle. I think we run that risk by creating a single-payer system. That's not to say that the current market is perfect and there aren't room for regulatory improvements, I just think creating a government monopoly on healthcare is a bad decision for future innovation in the industry.

I applaud Sanders on one issue when it comes to the VA. That would be his willingness recently to start privatizing VA care. I really don't understand why veterans have to go to VA hospitals and see VA doctors. To me, it would make more sense to operate the VA healthcare system like they do the Tri-Care insurance system. Let the government be the insurance company rather than the provider. The veteran can go seek care at any hospital or any doctor they please and the doctor just bills the VA. That seems so much more efficient than what is going on now. Some veterans have to drive a couple of hours to go see these doctors, so it's extremely inconvenient. My mother and father commute twice a month to a city nearly 3 hours away so that my father can go see a VA doctor. There's an award winning hospital in their home town that provides outstanding care. It would save my parents time and money to go to their local doctor. Plus, if there's an emergency, the doctors would already be familiar with my father and his medical history rather than the VA having all of his records. You can also probably cut costs by privatizing the VA healthcare system. You lose all of the overhead associated with owning and staffing a hospital. It's not cheap.

Other than that, Sanders and I don't agree much on policy issues, so I doubt he's really my guy. And to my knowledge he really wasn't very fond of the privatization of the VA, it was a compromise he agreed to because of all of the problems the VA was/is having and it was a temporary fix until they could get some of the problems sorted out.

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brett2k07

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #330 on: February 03, 2016, 08:35:19 AM »
Rubio is the only credible threat to a third Democratic term, but he's had to tack so far right for the primary that he's probably sunk himself in the general too. 

I think Rubio has a much better chance in the general against both Clinton and Sanders. The RealClearPolitics average has Rubio beating Clinton by 2.5% and Sanders by 1%. He's the only candidate to beat both of them. They have Trump losing to both Clinton and Sanders and Cruz only beats Clinton and his victory margin is only 1.3%. If people are concerned about winning, Trump is definitely not the guy. I think he splits the party more than unites it. People like me will not vote for that man if he gets the nomination. I'll write-in a candidate before I vote for him. I could vote for Cruz, but I think we lose a lot of the moderate and independent votes if he gets the nomination.

I am personally a big Rubio fan. I defend Cruz a lot in conversations with people because I feel he gets a lot of undeserved flack (see above about the government shutdowns) but he's not my first choice. Rubio still conservative enough that the establishment don't really like him all that much, but they're at least willing to work with him on a majority of issues. I was really excited when I was watching the results of the Iowa caucus. I was so hoping he would overtake Trump and finish second. I think if we can get some of these other candidates like Santorum, Christie, and Jeb to just drop out already I think his chances of winning the nomination go up.

I would just like to see a conservative get into the White House and remove some of the red tape and bureaucracy that we currently have. The VA is the example I point to the most because I have personal experience in dealing with them. The crap we put our veterans through is ridiculous and unnecessary. I have zero faith that Trump would do any of that. If anything, I think he would make it worse. I'm pretty sure Cruz would at least try, though Congress may not go through with some of the changes he proposes. I think Rubio would do it to a degree and I think he probably has the best chance overall of getting Congress approval as well.

Not to mention he's charismatic, well spoken, and his life story seems to be very relatable for a lot of people.

I agree that Rubio is the most sane sounding of the Republican candidates. It's unfortunate that he's a climate change denier, fervent pro-lifer and 100% anti-gay marriage.

If your big issue is bureaucracy / the VA - Bernie may be your man. He cuts through that red tape and advocates for veterans. Just because he wants the government to ensure everyone gets healthcare and education doesn't mean he wants services to be delivered inefficiently.

The fact that we have had complaints about bureaucracy and the VA for decades, regardless of administration and political party in charge makes me extremely skeptical of any pledge that a candidate makes to fix it. The problems are deeply ingrained and would likely take a lot of effort to address and the I imagine once a candidate is in office, they find it easier to to focus on lower hanging fruit issues.

I agree with you on this. I would love to see some VA reform (as I just laid out) but I don't really expect to see much change unless we get someone in there who is very adamant about actually doing something to change it. Maybe Sanders will be that guy, maybe not. A lot of Democrats, including Clinton chastised him heavily for his agreement to funding for privatization so he probably wouldn't get much support there, and I think Republicans would fight him just to fight him. They really have no vested interest in reducing the size of government or the bureaucracy associated with it.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #331 on: February 03, 2016, 09:16:24 AM »
Does it really surprise anyone that Ted Cruz would do this?

http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/ted-cruz-cheated-his-staffers-told-iowa-caucus-goers-that-ben-carson-had-already-dropped-out/23729/

I don't know. I frankly can't stand Ted Cruz, but I'm leaning on this having been something that was done spur of the moment by the individual staffers all pumped up to win Iowa for Cruz. On the other hand, it could have been coordinated by someone higher up in his campaign. I doubt Cruz himself specifically had a hand in it. I imagine the campaign managers would want to preserve plausible deniability when it comes to dirty tricks. I can see this happening with almost any campaign and not endemic to Cruz specifically.  Bleah, how I hate defending Cruz.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #332 on: February 03, 2016, 09:44:29 AM »
Iowa seemed to shake things up, it is entertaining to me to see Hillary touting the victory saying it is giving her momentum. I think the real story there is that the most qualified person running for President ever (resume-wise, not talking accomplishments or stances on issues) with unmatched political connections and high level donors blew a 50 point lead in a few months to somehow walk away with a win by a few tenths of a percent against a self described socialist that is dependent on small donations ($27 dollars is the average). This "victory" for Hillary did three things, 1) Destroyed the "inevitability" argument 2) Destroyed any notion of Bernie being a "fringe" candidate that is "unelectable" 3) Showed the youth vote will not show up for Hillary in the general if she wins the nomination (Bernie won that age group by 70 points).

MasterStache

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #333 on: February 03, 2016, 09:59:32 AM »
Rubio is the only credible threat to a third Democratic term, but he's had to tack so far right for the primary that he's probably sunk himself in the general too. 

I think Rubio has a much better chance in the general against both Clinton and Sanders. The RealClearPolitics average has Rubio beating Clinton by 2.5% and Sanders by 1%. He's the only candidate to beat both of them. They have Trump losing to both Clinton and Sanders and Cruz only beats Clinton and his victory margin is only 1.3%. If people are concerned about winning, Trump is definitely not the guy. I think he splits the party more than unites it. People like me will not vote for that man if he gets the nomination. I'll write-in a candidate before I vote for him. I could vote for Cruz, but I think we lose a lot of the moderate and independent votes if he gets the nomination.

I am personally a big Rubio fan. I defend Cruz a lot in conversations with people because I feel he gets a lot of undeserved flack (see above about the government shutdowns) but he's not my first choice. Rubio still conservative enough that the establishment don't really like him all that much, but they're at least willing to work with him on a majority of issues. I was really excited when I was watching the results of the Iowa caucus. I was so hoping he would overtake Trump and finish second. I think if we can get some of these other candidates like Santorum, Christie, and Jeb to just drop out already I think his chances of winning the nomination go up.

I would just like to see a conservative get into the White House and remove some of the red tape and bureaucracy that we currently have. The VA is the example I point to the most because I have personal experience in dealing with them. The crap we put our veterans through is ridiculous and unnecessary. I have zero faith that Trump would do any of that. If anything, I think he would make it worse. I'm pretty sure Cruz would at least try, though Congress may not go through with some of the changes he proposes. I think Rubio would do it to a degree and I think he probably has the best chance overall of getting Congress approval as well.

Not to mention he's charismatic, well spoken, and his life story seems to be very relatable for a lot of people.

I agree that Rubio is the most sane sounding of the Republican candidates. It's unfortunate that he's a climate change denier, fervent pro-lifer and 100% anti-gay marriage.

If your big issue is bureaucracy / the VA - Bernie may be your man. He cuts through that red tape and advocates for veterans. Just because he wants the government to ensure everyone gets healthcare and education doesn't mean he wants services to be delivered inefficiently.

The first Republican to rebuke the climate denial trend will be the first Republican I take seriously.

sol

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #334 on: February 03, 2016, 10:15:55 AM »
The first Republican to rebuke the climate denial trend will be the first Republican I take seriously.

I think you might be surprised at how many of them take climate change very seriously, but can't say so publicly.

You'll just have to take my word for it on this; most of our senior political leadership knows climate change is real, caused by humans, and a long term threat to our economy, our health, and our national security.  Despite popular opinion, Congress is not populated by morons.

But it is accountable to morons.  A huge number of those politicians are beholden to constituents who believe NASA faked the moon landing, Obama is a Muslim, and climate change is all a hoax.  Their political agenda (which is about 90% economic) is subject to their continued reelection, which is contingent on telling the people what they want to hear, which means catering to their misguided beliefs.  Behind closed doors, most of the Republican leadership talks openly and seriously about climate change in a way that would get them tossed on their asses if they did it in public.

There are exceptions, of course.  James Inhofe is a dyed-in-the-wool climate denier, and he chairs the Environment and Public Works committee.  He's an idiot, but most senior Republicans aren't like that privately, even while they back him publicly.

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #335 on: February 03, 2016, 10:25:33 AM »
Does it really surprise anyone that Ted Cruz would do this?

http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/ted-cruz-cheated-his-staffers-told-iowa-caucus-goers-that-ben-carson-had-already-dropped-out/23729/

I don't know. I frankly can't stand Ted Cruz, but I'm leaning on this having been something that was done spur of the moment by the individual staffers all pumped up to win Iowa for Cruz. On the other hand, it could have been coordinated by someone higher up in his campaign. I doubt Cruz himself specifically had a hand in it. I imagine the campaign managers would want to preserve plausible deniability when it comes to dirty tricks. I can see this happening with almost any campaign and not endemic to Cruz specifically.  Bleah, how I hate defending Cruz.

Maybe. But looking at the quote from this article where Cruz specifically owns and defends using another vary questionable practice and outright lying to voters, I have a hard time believing he did not condone, or even authorize, the Carson lie.

 http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/trump-recants-his-iowa-concession-and-unleashes-a-furious-twitter-tantrum-against-ted-cruz/

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #336 on: February 03, 2016, 10:46:19 AM »

The first Republican to rebuke the climate denial trend will be the first Republican I take seriously.

LINDSEY GRAHAM
https://newrepublic.com/article/121936/lindsey-graham-republican-environmentalists-can-love

sol

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #337 on: February 03, 2016, 11:02:20 AM »

The first Republican to rebuke the climate denial trend will be the first Republican I take seriously.

LINDSEY GRAHAM
https://newrepublic.com/article/121936/lindsey-graham-republican-environmentalists-can-love

Is a perfect example of why Republican politicians have to deny climate change.  Even suggesting that you might maybe agree with science is enough to make you a laughing stock with the voters.  Poor guy never had a chance.

If he'd just gone with "I'm gonna build a wall!" he would have gotten a lot farther in the primaries.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #338 on: February 03, 2016, 11:08:31 AM »
looks like the person I most wanted to be president, Rand Paul, has dropped out, as well as Mike Huckabee.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #339 on: February 03, 2016, 11:16:03 AM »
looks like the person I most wanted to be president, Rand Paul, has dropped out, as well as Mike Huckabee.

Huckabee was still running?

Kris

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #340 on: February 03, 2016, 11:24:18 AM »

The first Republican to rebuke the climate denial trend will be the first Republican I take seriously.

LINDSEY GRAHAM
https://newrepublic.com/article/121936/lindsey-graham-republican-environmentalists-can-love

Is a perfect example of why Republican politicians have to deny climate change.  Even suggesting that you might maybe agree with science is enough to make you a laughing stock with the voters.  Poor guy never had a chance.

If he'd just gone with "I'm gonna build a wall!" he would have gotten a lot farther in the primaries.

True.  I knew this about Graham, and I did respect him for not lying or being a whackjob. 

Unfortunately, many of the shameless ways he has conducted himself in the Senate cemented him as a class A sleazeball in my mind far before I learned that he actually believes climate change is real.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #341 on: February 03, 2016, 11:55:50 AM »
looks like the person I most wanted to be president, Rand Paul, has dropped out, as well as Mike Huckabee.

Same for me. Too bad I didn't already send in my absentee ballot; now I have to find the least unfortunate option. Looks like that's Rubio, even though he just seems like a younger and angrier Bush. I'd vote for Cruz in the spirit of gridlock, but I don't think he could win against Sanders. He can't out-sleaze a Clinton, so he'd do well there, but I think Sanders would look pretty good up against him.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #342 on: February 03, 2016, 12:12:57 PM »
looks like the person I most wanted to be president, Rand Paul, has dropped out, as well as Mike Huckabee.

Same for me. Too bad I didn't already send in my absentee ballot; now I have to find the least unfortunate option. Looks like that's Rubio, even though he just seems like a younger and angrier Bush. I'd vote for Cruz in the spirit of gridlock, but I don't think he could win against Sanders. He can't out-sleaze a Clinton, so he'd do well there, but I think Sanders would look pretty good up against him.
Next least unfortunate after Rand for me is John Kasich, he will do well in New Hampshire and there is like a .1% chance that it will then lead to him doing better in other states, especially if he nails the next couple debates as well. But on the other hand, Rubio already has like a 25% chance of winning, which is much better than .1%

MasterStache

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #343 on: February 03, 2016, 12:59:08 PM »
The first Republican to rebuke the climate denial trend will be the first Republican I take seriously.

I think you might be surprised at how many of them take climate change very seriously, but can't say so publicly.

You'll just have to take my word for it on this; most of our senior political leadership knows climate change is real, caused by humans, and a long term threat to our economy, our health, and our national security.  Despite popular opinion, Congress is not populated by morons.

But it is accountable to morons.  A huge number of those politicians are beholden to constituents who believe NASA faked the moon landing, Obama is a Muslim, and climate change is all a hoax.  Their political agenda (which is about 90% economic) is subject to their continued reelection, which is contingent on telling the people what they want to hear, which means catering to their misguided beliefs.  Behind closed doors, most of the Republican leadership talks openly and seriously about climate change in a way that would get them tossed on their asses if they did it in public.

There are exceptions, of course.  James Inhofe is a dyed-in-the-wool climate denier, and he chairs the Environment and Public Works committee.  He's an idiot, but most senior Republicans aren't like that privately, even while they back him publicly.

I suppose I should have been more specific. The bolded part is more precisely what I was referring to. If a politician, any politician, cannot be honest and forthcoming about their beliefs, no matter the situation, I absolutely will not vote for them. Perhaps why I am drawn to someone more like Sanders.   

sol

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #344 on: February 03, 2016, 01:19:18 PM »
I don't think Bernie Sanders is going to be some kind of panacea, but it would be a step in the right direction. I disagree with many of his spending initiatives (although I appreciate that he's transparent about where the taxes will come from that will pay for those programs), but right now he seems to me to be the least corrupt of either side and the most honest in both word and action about wanting to get money out of politics.

I don't necessarily agree with the policy positions or rhetoric that Bernie Sanders supports, but I'll agree with you on one count; I think he's the least corrupt politician currently in the race on either side.  Love him or hate him, at least he's not lying to you.

trailrated

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #345 on: February 03, 2016, 04:35:49 PM »
I don't think Bernie Sanders is going to be some kind of panacea, but it would be a step in the right direction. I disagree with many of his spending initiatives (although I appreciate that he's transparent about where the taxes will come from that will pay for those programs), but right now he seems to me to be the least corrupt of either side and the most honest in both word and action about wanting to get money out of politics.

I don't necessarily agree with the policy positions or rhetoric that Bernie Sanders supports, but I'll agree with you on one count; I think he's the least corrupt politician currently in the race on either side.  Love him or hate him, at least he's not lying to you.

I completely agree with you on that one Sol, a lot of things he is angry about I think are completely legitimate (and I tend to be moderate to right on a lot of issues). When I watch his speeches I can understand why he has such an enthusiastic voter base. I completely disagree with the way he wants to go about solving the issues he brings up. I think his track record speaks volumes as well, he is not trying to re-invent himself every election cycle and that gives him a level of legitimacy that nobody on the Republican or Democratic side can match.

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #346 on: February 03, 2016, 08:03:15 PM »
The first Republican to rebuke the climate denial trend will be the first Republican I take seriously.
I'm reading the book "This Changes Everything" and it's a very compelling case for why conservatives (and conservative politicians especially) feel threatened by climate change as a problem with their ideology - because if free-rein capitalism caused such a messed up problem, we may have to look elsewhere to fix it. That would hurt a lot of rich people in their pocketbooks, and they spend millions on propaganda in conservative news sources to combat the idea that free market solutions might actually turn out to spawn free market problems, and a big problem at that.

I grew up an Ayn Rand-toting libertarian, but have gradually morphed into a socialist because I've become disillusioned with the dishonesty and fraud that plague the free market, resulting in an inequality not only of wealth but of power and influence, so that the majority of poor people in this world are getting screwed over in a million ways just to make the rich richer. What's good for 99% of the world, like strict pollution standards, can be overthrown easily by the money and power of the 1% who stand to lose money if those solutions happen. The problems that face our world today are so wide-spread that I feel like they can't be solved without government interventions, as inefficient or costly as they may be.

Mostly what I hate is that our own government seems so entrenched with moneyed interests that they're not doing what's best for the people they're supposed to represent. I don't think Bernie Sanders is going to be some kind of panacea, but it would be a step in the right direction. I disagree with many of his spending initiatives (although I appreciate that he's transparent about where the taxes will come from that will pay for those programs), but right now he seems to me to be the least corrupt of either side and the most honest in both word and action about wanting to get money out of politics.

I've walked a similar path as yours. My disillusionment is amplified by the cynical and disrespectful foreign policy of our government since WW2. At times guided by corporate interests, or simplistic ideologies, or a mix of both, foreign policy doctrines have been largely influenced by the people each President appointed to their cabinet.

As far as I can tell, the remaining Republican candidates are likely to bring back the neoconservatives such as Paul Wolfowitz and company (if you still love the neoconservatives and their philosophy - I urge you to learn about Doug Feith - the architect of DeBaathification and prison policy in Iraq - a guy who General Tommy Franks called "the dumbest fucking guy on the planet" - and when you're done reading, check back in).

The last people I want in the next administration's cabinet are neoconservatives with their  noble lies and their penchant for believing their own noble lies (look at CIA director William J. Casey and his refusal to believe the CIA when they told him there was no USSR state sponsorship of global terror - they told him *they* had created the evidence of the link in their own black ops propaganda missions, also, subsequent claims by neocons that 'The Stassi files' bore out the links is patently false. But that's for another discussion).

Whatever you believe about what our foreign policy should be, I'm wondering: Who will each candidate choose as their most trusted advisors? Who will they pack their cabinet with? We're not electing a president, we're electing an administration.  Personally I'd like a president who recruits a 'team of rivals' as Lincoln did. But I don't think we'll get that. We'll probably get echo-chambers of incestuous amplification no matter what. That said, who are the people that each candidate will recruit? And, what do you think of them?

Rubio: seems to be down with the neoconservatives.
Cruz: mixed. I'm not sure the slant of all the news outlets reporting on the issue, but he at least talks about the neocon view being simplistic. I can't believe I actually agree with words coming out of Ted Cruz's mouth here:
Quote
At a town hall Monday morning in Coralville, Cruz rejected the “binary” framing of a choice between a foreign policy philosophy where “we want to retreat from the world and be isolationist and leave everyone alone, or we’ve got to be these crazy neo-con invade-every-country-on-earth and send our kids to die in the Middle East.”
“Most people I know don’t agree with either one of those,” he said. “They think both of those are nuts.”

And he's said he'll cut out 4 cabinet agencies, + the IRS. Uh,er, k?
Bernie Sanders: he says he'll totally cut out all Wall Street advisors from places like Goldman Sachs. He will likely recruit two people I'm familiar with: Robert Reich and Elizabeth Warren. I've read he may recruit economist Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, both of whom I'm unfamiliar with.
Hillary Clinton: Elizabeth Warren, Jake Sullivan, Bill Clinton?
Trump - he's said he'd recruit people like Sarah Palin. 

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Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #348 on: February 03, 2016, 08:47:47 PM »
(if you still love the neoconservatives and their philosophy - I urge you to learn about Doug Feith - the architect of DeBaathification and prison policy in Iraq - a guy who General Tommy Franks called "the dumbest fucking guy on the planet" - and when you're done reading, check back in).
Oh Lord, no, I was done with the neoconservatives by the time I graduated school. It's not a philosophy that survives a great deal of scrutiny, but I was young and wanted to believe that our system was more meritocratic and less corrupt than it is.

I'm sorry, MrsWhipple! I didn't mean to imply that I thought you in particular were taken with neoconservativism. I was simply adding to your well-thought out and well written commentary. 

Thing is, I've learned that I can't just make an offhand comment about the neoconservatives.  I find I need to supply specific examples of how their ideology and advice have gone horribly wrong, so that people who are taken with the superficial neo-con story, can look under the hood for themselves before defending them.

Malaysia41

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #349 on: February 03, 2016, 08:49:04 PM »
Bernie Sanders: ... he may recruit economist Paul Krugman ... whom I'm unfamiliar with.

See http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-krugman-is-right-2013-4 and http://www.investmentu.com/article/detail/40590/paul-krugman-meet-worlds-worst-economist.

Thanks for the two articles of opposing viewpoints. The positive argument is about how his general viewpoint / side of the debate has been proved correct (spending vs austerity during financial crises).  The other article is much more pointed and directed at him as a person. If indeed he's as the article says: prone to confirmation bias, thinking he knows it all, and quick to use ad hominem attacks - well, those are all large red flags.  I suppose the next step is to read his blog. Whoa - he writes something just about every day.  A quick scan and I can say this: he doesn't hold back with his opinion.  It is of course, his blog.  I'm not sure if I want to go down that rabbit hole right now though. Maybe later. Thanks again MDM.