Author Topic: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America  (Read 4438 times)

PDXTabs

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Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« on: August 08, 2020, 10:12:20 AM »
This is 4200 words of commentary with many insights, I highly recommend it. I'll share just one here:

COVID-19 didn’t lay America low; it simply revealed what had long been forsaken. As the crisis unfolded, with another American dying every minute of every day, a country that once turned out fighter planes by the hour could not manage to produce the paper masks or cotton swabs essential for tracking the disease. The nation that defeated smallpox and polio, and led the world for generations in medical innovation and discovery, was reduced to a laughing stock as a buffoon of a president advocated the use of household disinfectants as a treatment for a disease that intellectually he could not begin to understand. - Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 10:24:45 AM by PDXTabs »

marty998

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2020, 06:49:44 AM »
Ooh I read this one earlier and was going to post it here but felt like that would be baiting some of you Muricans.

Number of interesting facts in there about three people owning a butt tonne of wealth in comparison to a very large proportion of the population.

What’s the answer? Are you guys just doomed?

OtherJen

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2020, 07:03:04 AM »
Ooh I read this one earlier and was going to post it here but felt like that would be baiting some of you Muricans.

Number of interesting facts in there about three people owning a butt tonne of wealth in comparison to a very large proportion of the population.

What’s the answer? Are you guys just doomed?

The short answer: if Trump wins a second term, probably. I don’t see the USA coming back from that in a recognizable form.

If not, we still have a long road ahead, and we can’t discount the possibility of heavy violence and a de facto civil war. If Trump loses, his cultists will not take his loss well, and they’re already fanning the flames with conspiracy theories.

bacchi

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2020, 08:48:14 AM »
If not, we still have a long road ahead, and we can’t discount the possibility of heavy violence and a de facto civil war. If Trump loses, his cultists will not take his loss well, and they’re already fanning the flames with conspiracy theories.

The alt-right is putting out "Civil War 2020" videos. They're well-done but odd, because they're based on the Russian "Perseus" spy, but they do reference the need to take back America from its legions of gay and black people.

As for the article, what we're seeing in America is the inevitable end stage of too much laissez-faire capitalism.

All hail the Chinese Century! Freedom for the worker!*



* Statements sponsored by the CCP.

GuitarStv

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2020, 09:21:20 AM »
As for the article, what we're seeing in America is the inevitable end stage of too much laissez-faire capitalism.

We all knew that Libertarianism would be the eventual cause of the death of the country . . . we just didn't expect it to happen so soon.  :P

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2020, 09:28:54 AM »
I saw this posted Facebook but I didn't want to go through all the stuff I disagreed with. The author raises some valid points but there's a lot of America bashing as well. Pretty much what I've come to expect from long-form articles in Rolling Stone.

Ooh I read this one earlier and was going to post it here but felt like that would be baiting some of you Muricans.

Number of interesting facts in there about three people owning a butt tonne of wealth in comparison to a very large proportion of the population.

What’s the answer? Are you guys just doomed?

If you look at these incredibly rich people like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc. the reason they are extremely wealthy is they built companies that are hugely successful and impacted millions of people. These people may have a large slice of the economic pie, but it's because they grew that pie so much. Would e-commerce be what it is today without Amazon? Would personal computers and the massive productivity they brought the economy still be the same if Microsoft never existed? Would reusable rockets launching at a fraction of the price of legacy aerospace companies exist without Elon Musk and SpaceX?

bacchi

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2020, 09:48:49 AM »
If you look at these incredibly rich people like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc. the reason they are extremely wealthy is they built companies that are hugely successful and impacted millions of people. These people may have a large slice of the economic pie, but it's because they grew that pie so much. Would e-commerce be what it is today without Amazon? Would personal computers and the massive productivity they brought the economy still be the same if Microsoft never existed? Would reusable rockets launching at a fraction of the price of legacy aerospace companies exist without Elon Musk and SpaceX?

I doubt Bezos would've have passed on founding Amazon if he knew he'd only make $25B instead of $150B.

"Eh, it's not worth it. What's $25 billion going to buy, anyway?"

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2020, 09:59:06 AM »
If you look at these incredibly rich people like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc. the reason they are extremely wealthy is they built companies that are hugely successful and impacted millions of people. These people may have a large slice of the economic pie, but it's because they grew that pie so much. Would e-commerce be what it is today without Amazon? Would personal computers and the massive productivity they brought the economy still be the same if Microsoft never existed? Would reusable rockets launching at a fraction of the price of legacy aerospace companies exist without Elon Musk and SpaceX?

I doubt Bezos would've have passed on founding Amazon if he knew he'd only make $25B instead of $150B.

"Eh, it's not worth it. What's $25 billion going to buy, anyway?"

Billionaires are a policy failure though, right? We should really cap him at $1 billion.

bacchi

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2020, 10:02:47 AM »
If you look at these incredibly rich people like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc. the reason they are extremely wealthy is they built companies that are hugely successful and impacted millions of people. These people may have a large slice of the economic pie, but it's because they grew that pie so much. Would e-commerce be what it is today without Amazon? Would personal computers and the massive productivity they brought the economy still be the same if Microsoft never existed? Would reusable rockets launching at a fraction of the price of legacy aerospace companies exist without Elon Musk and SpaceX?

I doubt Bezos would've have passed on founding Amazon if he knew he'd only make $25B instead of $150B.

"Eh, it's not worth it. What's $25 billion going to buy, anyway?"

Billionaires are a policy failure though, right? We should really cap him at $1 billion.

No one said anything about a "cap." Those are your words.

Eta: No one said anything about billionaires being a policy failure, either. Those are your words.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 10:06:37 AM by bacchi »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2020, 10:06:38 AM »
If you look at these incredibly rich people like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc. the reason they are extremely wealthy is they built companies that are hugely successful and impacted millions of people. These people may have a large slice of the economic pie, but it's because they grew that pie so much. Would e-commerce be what it is today without Amazon? Would personal computers and the massive productivity they brought the economy still be the same if Microsoft never existed? Would reusable rockets launching at a fraction of the price of legacy aerospace companies exist without Elon Musk and SpaceX?

I doubt Bezos would've have passed on founding Amazon if he knew he'd only make $25B instead of $150B.

"Eh, it's not worth it. What's $25 billion going to buy, anyway?"

Most of his wealth is tied up in the business as unrealized gains. Same with most billionaires. If he grows the company from being valued at $1 trillion to $2 trillion shouldn't he get the same gains as any other shareholder (which includes pretty much anyone with an index fund, i.e. probably everyone posting here)?

bacchi

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2020, 10:13:57 AM »
If you look at these incredibly rich people like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc. the reason they are extremely wealthy is they built companies that are hugely successful and impacted millions of people. These people may have a large slice of the economic pie, but it's because they grew that pie so much. Would e-commerce be what it is today without Amazon? Would personal computers and the massive productivity they brought the economy still be the same if Microsoft never existed? Would reusable rockets launching at a fraction of the price of legacy aerospace companies exist without Elon Musk and SpaceX?

I doubt Bezos would've have passed on founding Amazon if he knew he'd only make $25B instead of $150B.

"Eh, it's not worth it. What's $25 billion going to buy, anyway?"

Most of his wealth is tied up in the business as unrealized gains. Same with most billionaires. If he grows the company from being valued at $1 trillion to $2 trillion shouldn't he get the same gains as any other shareholder (which includes pretty much anyone with an index fund, i.e. probably everyone posting here)?

True, and unrealized gains are complicated with re: the wealth tax. Some, including many progressives, argue that it's impossible to fairly tax unrealized gains, including stocks, bonds, art, and land. They may be right.

However, when the gains become realized, they can be taxed more progressively. As taxes decline in the US through tax cuts, we assume that it's always been this way. It hasn't. The Laffer curve is exactly that -- a curve on a graph with an X and Y axis, not a fixed number.

Leisured

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2020, 01:56:26 AM »
Thank you for the Rolling Stones article, PDXTabs.

Edit: I think that America will recover somewhat.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 01:58:49 AM by Leisured »

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2020, 08:54:35 PM »
As bad as things are, the current situation pales compared to what America went through during the Civil War and the Great Depression. The 1970s were really bad too with daily terrorist bombings, economic problems, massive race riots, etc. and we survived that just fine. Just saying, it's not a pleasant situation right now but I doubt it'll bring the country down. Just feels like it will.

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2020, 09:08:24 PM »
I graduated from high school in 1972 and for most people life went on as normal.  I remember the race riots in the 60’s but not the 70’s.  They didn’t happen in any town I have lived in.

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2020, 09:21:06 PM »
I graduated from high school in 1972 and for most people life went on as normal.  I remember the race riots in the 60’s but not the 70’s.  They didn’t happen in any town I have lived in.

I thought they were mostly in the 60's as well.  Both my parents and wife's parents graduated in 1972 as well.

From stories I hear my parents/grandparents were not affected much. However my wife's Grandfather had his store in Washington DC destroyed/looted during the MLK riots and turned his whole life/finances upside down. He never really recovered from it :(  That's also when they moved from DC to the MD suburbs (like a lot of folks in that time).

But, eventually life went on; and I'm sure it will this time too. Even though it does have a lot of SUCK right now :/

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2020, 10:42:03 PM »
The US does a lot right, and a lot wrong. It's inevitable that when you aim for the stars you're going to fall flat on your face sometimes.

No country on earth treats its talented computer programmers, engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers etc better and I think that's a real plus of the US - it knows how to attract and nurture talent. It takes the best migrants from around the world and incorporates them into its melting pot. It is a land of diversity and opportunity for the best and brightest. I think it ought to get more credit for the amazing achievements that it has accomplished, as a country, in a short space of time.

I believe in America.

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2020, 12:24:31 AM »

I believe in America.

Fellow Australian here, and I also believe in America. Pity Trump supporters do not. Republicans seem to hanker for a rural America that faded away perhaps 1950.

PDXTabs

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2020, 01:05:27 AM »
No country on earth treats its talented computer programmers, engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers etc better and I think that's a real plus of the US - it knows how to attract and nurture talent. It takes the best migrants from around the world and incorporates them into its melting pot. It is a land of diversity and opportunity for the best and brightest. I think it ought to get more credit for the amazing achievements that it has accomplished, as a country, in a short space of time.

I wholeheartedly disagree. This may have been true 50 years ago, but today you are better off with a Blue Card from Germany than an H1B from the USA.

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2020, 01:06:55 AM »
No country on earth treats its talented computer programmers, engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers etc better and I think that's a real plus of the US - it knows how to attract and nurture talent. It takes the best migrants from around the world and incorporates them into its melting pot. It is a land of diversity and opportunity for the best and brightest. I think it ought to get more credit for the amazing achievements that it has accomplished, as a country, in a short space of time.

I wholeheartedly disagree. This may have been true 50 years ago, but today you are better off with a Blue Card from Germany than an H1B from the USA.

I don't think so. In all the occupations I listed you will earn a lot more in the U.S. than anywhere else in the world. And as long as you live in one of the nice suburbs in a blue state you will have the world's highest standard of living, for a fairly reasonable cost of living.

PDXTabs

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2020, 01:48:55 AM »
No country on earth treats its talented computer programmers, engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers etc better and I think that's a real plus of the US - it knows how to attract and nurture talent. It takes the best migrants from around the world and incorporates them into its melting pot. It is a land of diversity and opportunity for the best and brightest. I think it ought to get more credit for the amazing achievements that it has accomplished, as a country, in a short space of time.

I wholeheartedly disagree. This may have been true 50 years ago, but today you are better off with a Blue Card from Germany than an H1B from the USA.

I don't think so. In all the occupations I listed you will earn a lot more in the U.S. than anywhere else in the world. And as long as you live in one of the nice suburbs in a blue state you will have the world's highest standard of living, for a fairly reasonable cost of living.

I'm sorry, work in software full time. I'm a US citizen and get paid great. H1Bs do not. H1B is a really great way to make $60K/yr while living in San Jose, CA. If it were my kids I would tell them to go to Germany, not the USA, if they were not US citizens.

EDITed to add: because an EU blue card is a permanent resident track visa, and an H1B is not. Among other things this means that you can move freely between jobs after 24 months in Germany but not in the USA. This makes it harder to move around for raises in the USA.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 01:52:27 AM by PDXTabs »

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2020, 01:56:52 AM »
Oh I see, I thought the H1B was the equivalent of a green card.

PDXTabs

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2020, 02:00:30 AM »
Oh I see, I thought the H1B was the equivalent of a green card.

In piratical terms there is no green card track visa for skilled workers in the USA anymore. I believe there are exemptions for doctors and people that have already worked for the company in question for 366 days, but almost no one qualifies for those visas.

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2020, 06:27:11 AM »
Uneven wealth distribution isn't really an american thing even if it often is portrayed that way. Even here, in social democratic Scandinavia where I live roughly 10% of households hold 50% of the financial wealth. The distribution is much flatter than in the US obv as there are not really any filthy-super-rich per american standards, but the share of population with a net worth > 1bn USD is actually higher both in Norway and Sweden than in the US. At least it was last time I checked.

And also roughly 25% of households have negative financial net worth where I live. This is, however a numer that is not very meaningful on its own as the main reason is younger people with a mortgage where only the liability side (the mortgage) comes into the equation while the asset (the house/apartment) is not considered financial wealth.

Leisured

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2020, 07:07:09 AM »
Returning to the original post, the US is an abnormal society under Trump, as Germany was under Hitler, and the USSR under Stalin. Trump, Hitler and Stalin played the part of Pied Pipers, but eventually the spell was broken. If Trump gets a second term, the spell will not be broken until 2024.

As Kyle Schuant has repeatedly pointed out, the 'deplorables' who voted for Trump have legitimate grievances. If they vote for Trump they know what they do not want, but do not know what they do want or need. Jobs lost overseas will not come back, because reshoring industry will just mean more robots and automation. The days of a thousand workers walking though the factory gates at a change of shift are gone.

What the American working class needs is Basic Income and universal heath care. Do American workers know that is what they need?

eljefe-speaks

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2020, 07:17:11 AM »
OK, well, good read. I am going to go curl into a ball now.

Fireball

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2020, 07:49:00 AM »
Returning to the original post, the US is an abnormal society under Trump, as Germany was under Hitler, and the USSR under Stalin. Trump, Hitler and Stalin played the part of Pied Pipers, but eventually the spell was broken. If Trump gets a second term, the spell will not be broken until 2024.

As Kyle Schuant has repeatedly pointed out, the 'deplorables' who voted for Trump have legitimate grievances. If they vote for Trump they know what they do not want, but do not know what they do want or need. Jobs lost overseas will not come back, because reshoring industry will just mean more robots and automation. The days of a thousand workers walking though the factory gates at a change of shift are gone.

What the American working class needs is Basic Income and universal heath care. Do American workers know that is what they need?

As long as the billionaire class pumps them full of propaganda - No, they don't.

OtherJen

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2020, 07:58:50 AM »
Returning to the original post, the US is an abnormal society under Trump, as Germany was under Hitler, and the USSR under Stalin. Trump, Hitler and Stalin played the part of Pied Pipers, but eventually the spell was broken. If Trump gets a second term, the spell will not be broken until 2024.

As Kyle Schuant has repeatedly pointed out, the 'deplorables' who voted for Trump have legitimate grievances. If they vote for Trump they know what they do not want, but do not know what they do want or need. Jobs lost overseas will not come back, because reshoring industry will just mean more robots and automation. The days of a thousand workers walking though the factory gates at a change of shift are gone.

What the American working class needs is Basic Income and universal heath care. Do American workers know that is what they need?

As long as the billionaire class pumps them full of propaganda - No, they don't.

No. They believe that it is socialism, which they have been told is the same as communism and therefore the highest form of evil.

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2020, 08:24:39 AM »
Returning to the original post, the US is an abnormal society under Trump, as Germany was under Hitler, and the USSR under Stalin. Trump, Hitler and Stalin played the part of Pied Pipers, but eventually the spell was broken. If Trump gets a second term, the spell will not be broken until 2024.

As Kyle Schuant has repeatedly pointed out, the 'deplorables' who voted for Trump have legitimate grievances. If they vote for Trump they know what they do not want, but do not know what they do want or need. Jobs lost overseas will not come back, because reshoring industry will just mean more robots and automation. The days of a thousand workers walking though the factory gates at a change of shift are gone.

What the American working class needs is Basic Income and universal heath care. Do American workers know that is what they need?

As long as the billionaire class pumps them full of propaganda - No, they don't.

No. They believe that it is socialism, which they have been told is the same as communism and therefore the highest form of evil.

Yup. Was in North Carolina and saw dozens of "Trump 2020 end Socialism" yard signs. I had never seen that won in MD.

Sad :/

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2020, 09:27:20 AM »
Returning to the original post, the US is an abnormal society under Trump, as Germany was under Hitler, and the USSR under Stalin. Trump, Hitler and Stalin played the part of Pied Pipers, but eventually the spell was broken. If Trump gets a second term, the spell will not be broken until 2024.

As Kyle Schuant has repeatedly pointed out, the 'deplorables' who voted for Trump have legitimate grievances. If they vote for Trump they know what they do not want, but do not know what they do want or need. Jobs lost overseas will not come back, because reshoring industry will just mean more robots and automation. The days of a thousand workers walking though the factory gates at a change of shift are gone.

What the American working class needs is Basic Income and universal heath care. Do American workers know that is what they need?


I'd say this is true for pretty much any advanced economy. Whether the US, Canada, western Europe, Australia, Japan, etc.

All of these countries are facing similar problems of not needing as many workers as they did a generation or two ago. Some new workers may be needed in fields like caring for the elderly now that they're not dying off in their 70s. Overall though, each worker produces so much that there will likely never be enough jobs.

Basic income will probably end up producing a permanent underclass comprised of those who can't or won't try to better their lot in life.

Leisured

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2020, 06:39:06 AM »
I see America today under Trump as an aberration. Below is a fragment from Tennyson's poem Ulysses, and Ulysses, King of Ithaca, now elderly, commends his son Telemachus to rule Ithaca. I see Telemachus as standing in for Biden and his successors. I do not, of course, suggest that Ulysses stands in for Trump.

         This is my son, mine own Telemachus,
To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle,—
Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil
This labour, by slow prudence to make mild
A rugged people, and thro' soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good.
Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.

'to make mild a rugged people, and through soft degrees subdue them to the useful and the good.'

And end the absurd political and ideological divide in America. Trump will eventually exhaust America, and Americans will look for a Telemachus.



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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2020, 07:37:20 AM »
I see America today under Trump as an aberration. Below is a fragment from Tennyson's poem Ulysses, and Ulysses, King of Ithaca, now elderly, commends his son Telemachus to rule Ithaca. I see Telemachus as standing in for Biden and his successors. I do not, of course, suggest that Ulysses stands in for Trump.

         This is my son, mine own Telemachus,
To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle,—
Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil
This labour, by slow prudence to make mild
A rugged people, and thro' soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good.
Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.

'to make mild a rugged people, and through soft degrees subdue them to the useful and the good.'

And end the absurd political and ideological divide in America. Trump will eventually exhaust America, and Americans will look for a Telemachus.

That's a lovely sentiment, from one of my husband's favorite poems (he's tried to memorize the entire thing, but hasn't quite gotten there).  I hope you are correct.

bacchi

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2020, 11:29:45 AM »
As you set out for Ithaka
hope your road is a long one,
full of adventure, full of discovery.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
angry Poseidon—don’t be afraid of them:
you’ll never find things like that on your way
as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
as long as a rare excitement
stirs your spirit and your body.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
wild Poseidon—you won’t encounter them
unless you bring them along inside your soul,
unless your soul sets them up in front of you.

-- C. P. Cavafy

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2020, 10:40:35 AM »

No. They believe that it is socialism, which they have been told is the same as communism and therefore the highest form of evil.

Yup. Was in North Carolina and saw dozens of "Trump 2020 end Socialism" yard signs. I had never seen that won in MD.

Sad :/
[/quote]

The thing that I see in rural Eastern Iowa (although, it's sprinkled with Biden signs too) is "End tax and spend. Vote republican."

Republicans are still trading on fiscal responsibility.  But nothing about republicans actually shows that up anymore.   

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2020, 11:16:18 AM »
The thing that I see in rural Eastern Iowa (although, it's sprinkled with Biden signs too) is "End tax and spend. Vote republican."

Republicans are still trading on fiscal responsibility.  But nothing about republicans actually shows that up anymore.

Come now. They are going to end "tax and spend" which they replaced with "borrow and spend."

JGS1980

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2020, 02:26:40 PM »
Basic income will probably end up producing a permanent underclass comprised of those who can't or won't try to better their lot in life.

As opposed to what exists right now?

Abe

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2020, 10:23:26 PM »
Many of Trump’s poorer supporters seem to subscribe to the idea that if we just deported all the illegally immigrated workers, there will be a labor shortage and they can get a well-paying job again. They don’t seem too concerned that automation (at least to some extent) or expansion of the seasonal worker system would be quickly pursued in those sectors because both options would be in the long term much cheaper than paying higher wages to someone forever. Construction is a good example. We build houses in a fairly anachronistic way, but could cut down on labor significantly with factory-made modular designs. Some fields like janitorial work would be harder to automate, but not impossible. Long term, options for poorer people in the US are quite limited, regardless of immigration status or other social factors.

PDXTabs

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2020, 02:29:07 PM »
Long term, options for poorer people in the US are quite limited, regardless of immigration status or other social factors.

Yup. My grandfather amassed a seven figure net worth including his two paid off two houses and put a kid through college because of his union mill job and he had an eighth grade education. Good luck doing that today.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 02:31:49 PM by PDXTabs »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2020, 08:30:10 PM »
Long term, options for poorer people in the [developed world] are quite limited, regardless of immigration status or other social factors.

The trends in the US are mirrored around the world. Automation (capital) will continue to replace labor which will impact the poor who's job are more likely to be automated. Labor intensive production will continue to seek to seek the lowest cost location. China is now getting too expensive for some things so production moves to Vietnam, Bangladesh, Ethiopia or somewhere else.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2020, 11:00:58 PM »
Basic income will probably end up producing a permanent underclass comprised of those who can't or won't try to better their lot in life.

As opposed to what exists right now?

A smaller country needs to conduct such an experiment. The USA is simply too big and too out of control for it. Roll out UBI in other, more uniform nations with actual stability to iron out the details. The USA doesn't even have universal healthcare, the notion of rolling out universal income in a country that can't even agree to universal healthcare is pure fantasy.

Leisured

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2020, 07:28:43 AM »

 The USA doesn't even have universal healthcare, the notion of rolling out universal income in a country that can't even agree to universal healthcare is pure fantasy.

+1.
But one can dream.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2020, 07:53:28 AM »

 The USA doesn't even have universal healthcare, the notion of rolling out universal income in a country that can't even agree to universal healthcare is pure fantasy.

+1.
But one can dream.

Of universal health care?

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2020, 12:25:08 AM »
Of universal health care?

We may get one step closer in 2021 on that front. The more I've looked at what my parents have with medicare and their supplemental coverage, the more I really like the idea of letting anyone be eligible for medicare and optionally adding supplemental insurance to it.

habanero

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2020, 05:36:33 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/09/opinion/united-states-social-progress.html


The newest Social Progress Index, shared with me before its official release Thursday morning, finds that out of 163 countries assessed worldwide, the United States, Brazil and Hungary are the only ones in which people are worse off than when the index began in 2011. And the declines in Brazil and Hungary were smaller than America’s.
....
The index, inspired by research of Nobel-winning economists, collects 50 metrics of well-being — nutrition, safety, freedom, the environment, health, education and more — to measure quality of life. Norway comes out on top in the 2020 edition, followed by Denmark, Finland and New Zealand. South Sudan is at the bottom, with Chad, Central African Republic and Eritrea just behind.

..

The United States, despite its immense wealth, military power and cultural influence, ranks 28th — having slipped from 19th in 2011. The index now puts the United States behind significantly poorer countries, including Estonia, Czech Republic, Cyprus and Greece.

“We are no longer the country we like to think we are,” said Porter.

The United States ranks No. 1 in the world in quality of universities, but No. 91 in access to quality basic education. The U.S. leads the world in medical technology, yet we are No. 97 in access to quality health care.

The Social Progress Index finds that Americans have health statistics similar to those of people in Chile, Jordan and Albania, while kids in the United States get an education roughly on par with what children get in Uzbekistan and Mongolia. A majority of countries have lower homicide rates, and most other advanced countries have lower traffic fatality rates and better sanitation and internet access.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 05:40:09 AM by habanero »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2020, 06:12:44 AM »
We're #7. The top countries have similar scores, so no point fretting about #7 versus #1.  When I have a good chunk of time I'm going to go into our details to see where we are weak. Because even Norway, at 92.73,  isn't perfect.   ;-)

The countries in the top 10 are all coping well with Covid.


sherr

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Re: Rolling Stone: The Unraveling of America
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2020, 12:24:24 PM »
We're #7. The top countries have similar scores, so no point fretting about #7 versus #1.  When I have a good chunk of time I'm going to go into our details to see where we are weak. Because even Norway, at 92.73,  isn't perfect.   ;-)

The countries in the top 10 are all coping well with Covid.

I was just about to argue with you and ask how  you got that from the article text that explicitly says that the US is #28, but then I realized you're from Canada. :)

For the interested: https://www.socialprogress.org/