Author Topic: Leaving the cities  (Read 7850 times)

iris lily

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Leaving the cities
« on: August 05, 2020, 06:10:14 PM »
https://humanevents.com/2020/07/23/goodbye-washington-dc/

I especially like these paragraphs, for those of you who don’t want to read the entire thing:

“...Now, we are told that, “silence equals violence.” Indifference is no longer tolerated in Urban America. Protests on the National Mall like “Earth Day” or “The Women’s March,” the kind where activists gave speeches over megaphones and colorful signs demanding this or that were standard in DC—and, importantly, easily avoided. That style of protest is gone...

...Now, we have riots, vandalism, and looting. “Protesters” set fire to an historic church and tear down statues. The protests, they say, must disrupt the status quo—and egging them on are media personalities like CNN’s Chris Cuomo, who said live, on the air, “please show me where it says protests are supposed to be polite and peaceful?”...
... The pact we made to live here has broken. What am I paying for?  A defunded police force? More murder? More violence? Do the property taxes I’ve faithfully paid for years not protect the CVS I can see from my bedroom—a building which recently had every window smashed and was looted because of “justice”?  When the metro was lousy, we turned to Uber. When the schools were failing, parents turned to charter schools. When one area turned bleak another neighborhood popped up. But when chaos and destruction permeate, and an exhausted people asking for relief are told their indifference–not violent looters—is the true culprit, then there is no alternative but to leave.

The protesters may think this is their moment, but there is a deep, dark secret that will crush every disaffected group now demanding “justice” or “awareness” is this: city people really don’t care. We have an amazing, almost unparalleled ability, to be indifferent...”




This article captured my feelings about my city, and a main reason I am leaving it.

I grew up in a small town and always wanted to live in a city. Was thrilled to move to an urban core in a city of great architecture, St. Louis. After 30 years we are leaving for a small, cute town 85 miles from the big city.

I am tired of elected officials failing to work with my neighborhood on keeping crime contained. I was horrified to watch a beloved building, one that is in my will, set on fire during rioting last month. I am disgusted with our city attorney’s constant shenanigans that seem to address everything but crime and criminals.

I can think of little else that expresses my indifference to the plight of my city then my absence from it.

LWYRUP

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2020, 06:35:52 PM »

I read that previously and did not think the author came across very well.  He sort of openly states how he doesn't care about his neighbors.  I am not sure if he moved to a poor area in the country that attitude would be well received there either.

I do understand where you are coming from though.  I moved from the city to the suburbs a few years ago and had some sort of vague regret (does this mean I am lame?  bad?) since there is a lot of hype where I live about why cities are the best and suburbs are all terrible, etc.  Having the space for kids to play and feeling safe during the pandemic wiped those doubts away.  I'm not anti-city.  I do think people just need to make the best decision for them and their families. 

I have a friend that is in downtown DC thinking of renting a townhouse in the exurbs for a year.  He works from home and has been very responsible about social distancing and is getting pandemic fatigue and is concerned that crime is rising.  So you are not alone.  But hopefully you are moving too something you think will be better, and not just away from something else. 

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2020, 06:36:30 AM »
I'm sorry, is this about leaving cities in general, or specifically leaving DC specifically, because that's two very different conversations.

iris lily

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2020, 06:48:08 AM »
I'm sorry, is this about leaving cities in general, or specifically leaving DC specifically, because that's two very different conversations.

I suppose you can make it about leaving whatever city you like.

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2020, 06:55:37 AM »
I'm sorry, is this about leaving cities in general, or specifically leaving DC specifically, because that's two very different conversations.

I suppose you can make it about leaving whatever city you like.

Well, my city, which is also a Capitol city is nothing like described. I'm wondering if these complaints are common to most US cities right now?

Is "leaving the cities" a thing in the US?

ender

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2020, 07:05:06 AM »
Quote
The mayor used taxpayer dollars—the one’s I’ve forked over for years—to force her beliefs on me. And, just like that, the pact was broken.

Hate to break it to the author, but the crux of his major complaint is by definition how taxes and government spending work.  Governments spend money on things based on beliefs and prioritization about what is important. Those beliefs are forced onto people continually.

What the author wants is HIS beliefs and desires to be what are forced on people via laws/taxes.


Watchmaker

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2020, 09:40:26 AM »
What an obtuse, self-important, unpleasant person that author is.

But he is of course free to leave the city; I'm much less certain than he is that he'll be missed.

Kris

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2020, 09:52:25 AM »
"Gay? Black? Trans? No offense, but, so what?"

Honestly, he could have saved a lot of words by just shrinking his essay down to that.

bacchi

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2020, 10:23:17 AM »
I'm sorry, is this about leaving cities in general, or specifically leaving DC specifically, because that's two very different conversations.

I suppose you can make it about leaving whatever city you like.

Well, my city, which is also a Capitol city is nothing like described. I'm wondering if these complaints are common to most US cities right now?

Is "leaving the cities" a thing in the US?

Only to people of a certain political persuasion.

FINate

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2020, 11:02:52 AM »
I appreciate the author's candor, though he comes across as abrasive and self-centered. Some of his critiques are valid.

We recently moved to a larger but much better managed city. While researching our move I dug into the crime stats, city budget, planning and permitting, economic development, infrastructure projects, and so on.

Cities should be shining examples of the human spirit: Full of life and creativity and community, abounding in opportunity for all. Sadly, many cities are not. I don't think this is due to BLM or other recent events, but rather long simmering issues.

Letting crime fester is a big one. Crime, even petty crime, pollutes the relational environment. It violates trust, resulting in suspicion between neighbors, and creates a siege mentality that is the opposite of community. Cities are primarily about people and relationships, so crime eats at the very heart of what makes a city a city.

Allowing NIMBYs destroy any semblance of urban planning is another big long-standing issue. The instinct to "protect" a city by keeping people out needs to die.

So I understand why many are fleeing certain places, but wish the diagnosis was better defined. The issue is not the city, per se, but rather how some have been mismanaged.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 11:05:12 AM by FINate »

BicycleB

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2020, 07:07:53 PM »
I found the article profoundly saddening, but not for the reasons intended by the author. His view of the city and who a "real" city resident is is so narrow that it strips him of connection and energy.

I grew up in a small town about 85 miles from St. Louis myself. Due to the adjective "cute", it's probably not the one OP is moving to. But after growing up there and moving to cities, I gradually learned a broader definition than "the city works because we leave each other alone". What a small sad approach that is!

In just my neighborhood, I have found friends, mentors, caring fellow citizens of numerous stripes. Worked together on projects, accomplished things, strengthened community groups, improved the neighborhood itself. Found ways to connect to and sometimes influence the larger city. Met and in some cases assisted artists who became more or less well known. All this from a corner of the city that people told me not to move into because of "Crime!!"

To me it seems like the author never realized that the functioning of the cities he used to enjoy depended on more than taxes and his business custom. Any vibrant and well run city also involves civic and community participation. While he was "being left alone", others were crafting the environment he enjoyed. From experience, I can attest that if he had formed connections beyond the mere business realm, the city might have become more of a home.

I'm not a fan of vandalism either, nor theft nor drugs nor any other social ill. Then again, I've taken action against each of those things and built a better neighborhood because of it. Now a new generation is taking up the cause.

My mother still lives in the small town where I grew up. There, just as in the city, are "real" residents who do indeed have the bandwidth to lie down in a street to help someone else have a better life. Just as in the city, whether the author realizes it or not, many of the rights and privileges he hopes to enjoy are created for everyone by people who just take a deeper view of what a community is than he does, and choose to make a home by taking responsibility for something beyond their personal interests.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 07:18:08 PM by BicycleB »

Watchmaker

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2020, 07:58:20 PM »
... whether the author realizes it or not, many of the rights and privileges he hopes to enjoy are created for everyone by people who just take a deeper view of what a community is than he does, and choose to make a home by taking responsibility for something beyond their personal interests.

So well said BicycleB. Much more useful then my own first response.

Cassie

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2020, 11:35:32 PM »
We live in a city of 300k that we really enjoy. I wouldn’t want to live in a huge city or a small town. I wouldn’t hesitate to leave if I was unhappy.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2020, 02:59:26 AM »
I can only speak for the city where I grew up and lived just outside of for 33 years.....it has turned into a cesspool.

As someone who is not particularly political, I would absolutely hate to live in one of these criminal safe havens that are so openly adored by majority of the greater community here.

My wife and I left the USA altogether, right before the shit hit the fan in March, with plans to come back in the fall. Now it's looking like we are far better off waiting out the madness through the election and end of year.

ETA: I did NOT read the linked article in the OP. But this topic has come up in some shape or form almost daily here and on other forums I frequent.

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2020, 04:25:54 AM »
I can only speak for the city where I grew up and lived just outside of for 33 years.....it has turned into a cesspool.

As someone who is not particularly political, I would absolutely hate to live in one of these criminal safe havens that are so openly adored by majority of the greater community here.

My wife and I left the USA altogether, right before the shit hit the fan in March, with plans to come back in the fall. Now it's looking like we are far better off waiting out the madness through the election and end of year.

ETA: I did NOT read the linked article in the OP. But this topic has come up in some shape or form almost daily here and on other forums I frequent.

I'm so curious about this.

What makes a city a "cesspool" and a "criminal safe haven"?

Are Canadian cities so drastically different from American cities?

I've been to the US a few times in the past few years, but no major cities other than Miami, and that was pre-Trump. So when people talk about this kind of thing, it's hard to even fathom what on earth that looks like.

I happen to live in one of the highest crime rate neighbourhoods in Canada, and for reference, I feel totally comfortable saying a friendly hello to the drug addicts and sex workers who live on these streets and my DH sometimes plays basketball with the homeless guys who live by the river.

I have zero frame of reference for what a "cesspool" city is like, I basically live on Sesame Street.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2020, 04:57:23 AM »
I can only speak for the city where I grew up and lived just outside of for 33 years.....it has turned into a cesspool.

As someone who is not particularly political, I would absolutely hate to live in one of these criminal safe havens that are so openly adored by majority of the greater community here.

My wife and I left the USA altogether, right before the shit hit the fan in March, with plans to come back in the fall. Now it's looking like we are far better off waiting out the madness through the election and end of year.

ETA: I did NOT read the linked article in the OP. But this topic has come up in some shape or form almost daily here and on other forums I frequent.

I'm so curious about this.

What makes a city a "cesspool" and a "criminal safe haven"?

Are Canadian cities so drastically different from American cities?

I've been to the US a few times in the past few years, but no major cities other than Miami, and that was pre-Trump. So when people talk about this kind of thing, it's hard to even fathom what on earth that looks like.

I happen to live in one of the highest crime rate neighbourhoods in Canada, and for reference, I feel totally comfortable saying a friendly hello to the drug addicts and sex workers who live on these streets and my DH sometimes plays basketball with the homeless guys who live by the river.

I have zero frame of reference for what a "cesspool" city is like, I basically live on Sesame Street.

My brother-in-law recently moved from a pretty bad neighborhood in Albuquerque. Just looking at the crime stats map in the last month within 2-3 blocks of his old house there were 5 shots fired, 3 aggravated assaults, one armed robbery, and an auto theft. Even in my relatively nice and safe neighborhood there was a shots fired on the main street several blocks away and one aggravated assault. Mostly it's domestic disputes - but I filtered those out as they just fill up the map otherwise.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2020, 05:15:14 AM »
My brother-in-law recently moved from a pretty bad neighborhood in Albuquerque. Just looking at the crime stats map in the last month within 2-3 blocks of his old house there were 5 shots fired, 3 aggravated assaults, one armed robbery, and an auto theft. Even in my relatively nice and safe neighborhood there was a shots fired on the main street several blocks away and one aggravated assault. Mostly it's domestic disputes - but I filtered those out as they just fill up the map otherwise.

I haven't really had the chance to dig into the stats, but year over year, NYC has seen a 31% increase in murders and 44% increase in burglary.

Unfortunately many PD's across the country have been ordered to stand down in instances of lesser crimes, and many crimes are being under reported due to Covid.

A middle aged female triathlon teammate of mine was harassed and assaulted by a group of teenagers on bicycles while doing a solo training ride in a very "safe" suburban park on Long Island last week. When she called the local PD to report it there was "nothing they could do".

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2020, 06:28:58 AM »
I can only speak for the city where I grew up and lived just outside of for 33 years.....it has turned into a cesspool.

As someone who is not particularly political, I would absolutely hate to live in one of these criminal safe havens that are so openly adored by majority of the greater community here.

My wife and I left the USA altogether, right before the shit hit the fan in March, with plans to come back in the fall. Now it's looking like we are far better off waiting out the madness through the election and end of year.

ETA: I did NOT read the linked article in the OP. But this topic has come up in some shape or form almost daily here and on other forums I frequent.

I'm so curious about this.

What makes a city a "cesspool" and a "criminal safe haven"?

Are Canadian cities so drastically different from American cities?

I've been to the US a few times in the past few years, but no major cities other than Miami, and that was pre-Trump. So when people talk about this kind of thing, it's hard to even fathom what on earth that looks like.

I happen to live in one of the highest crime rate neighbourhoods in Canada, and for reference, I feel totally comfortable saying a friendly hello to the drug addicts and sex workers who live on these streets and my DH sometimes plays basketball with the homeless guys who live by the river.

I have zero frame of reference for what a "cesspool" city is like, I basically live on Sesame Street.

My brother-in-law recently moved from a pretty bad neighborhood in Albuquerque. Just looking at the crime stats map in the last month within 2-3 blocks of his old house there were 5 shots fired, 3 aggravated assaults, one armed robbery, and an auto theft. Even in my relatively nice and safe neighborhood there was a shots fired on the main street several blocks away and one aggravated assault. Mostly it's domestic disputes - but I filtered those out as they just fill up the map otherwise.

The "stats" where I live are pretty bad too, there's a ton of crime here, it's just mostly gang on gang stuff, drug crime, etc. There's a lot of theft, and some rare shootings, but none of it directly affects my day to day life here. It's a very warm and friendly and very diverse community.

A guy's throat was slit in broad daylight on the main street just a few blocks from my house, but again, that's gang on gang stuff. I have no fear for my own safety and go to the store it happened in front of regularly.

Perhaps the big difference is that we don't have a lot of guns here? Although for Canada, my area has a lot of guns and shots fired in the streets does happen, and a guy was shot recently on the main street across from where the other guy had his throat slit. So it's not like there are no guns here, but again, they're basically exclusively used on gang on gang crime.

I honestly don't understand how I can live in a crime dense area and feel totally safe as a woman walking around alone (during the day), while so many Americans here describe urban areas where they don't even feel safe as men biking to work.

I'm really trying to understand this.
I was in Allentown Pennsylvania, which is about as quaint as quaint as can be, and my very white, very conservative senior citizen friend who was hosting me insisted I not walk at all towards a certain direction from my hotel. As long as I stayed above the street my hotel was on, I was fine, but to stray just blocks downhill I would be in real danger.

I was fascinated, I so wanted to understand how much was real danger and how much was perception of this dude who winters in a gated community in Florida.

I know that if someone were visiting my city, most of my conservative, wealthy, suburban colleagues would heavily caution against wandering into my neighbourhood, and cite the sex workers and addicts wandering the streets as evidence of danger, even though none of them pose any risk.

If it is that dangerous, then why? What makes it so different from my crime ridden neighbourhood where I know the street dwelling drug addicts fairly well because I have frequently brought them bags of clothes, towels, etc.

I'm just trying to understand because I find it really strange.



« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 06:35:52 AM by Malcat »

LWYRUP

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2020, 06:46:58 AM »
The explanation is really simple.

1.  There is a lot more really violent crime in the USA and Canada.  [edit: whoops, I meant "in the USA than Canada."]

2.  Some people temperamentally have a greater aversion to crime than others.  (While I think some people are perhaps more worried than is overly necessary, most people would be really disturbed if someone who lives near them had their throat slit, gang member or not.)

3.  Some people may be personally be willing to live in an area with a certain amount of violent crime when single in their 20s-30s, but then not want that environment when raising kids or later when older and frail (60+). 

I don't think that anyone should feel guilty or ashamed for not wanting to be a victim of violent crime.  My neighborhood is very old school in many ways, and it's a place where I see kids as a young as six walking dogs or riding bikes alone and supervised.  (That's a little young for me, but when our daughter is seven we will probably let her walk to a friends house.)  We live in a suburb of a very big city, and there are occasionally people that come at night and rifle through cars.  But violent crime in the daytime?  I'm willing to guess it literally hasn't happened ever since the neighborhood was built in the late 1950s. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 07:40:14 AM by LWYRUP »

OtherJen

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2020, 07:04:43 AM »
My brother-in-law recently moved from a pretty bad neighborhood in Albuquerque. Just looking at the crime stats map in the last month within 2-3 blocks of his old house there were 5 shots fired, 3 aggravated assaults, one armed robbery, and an auto theft. Even in my relatively nice and safe neighborhood there was a shots fired on the main street several blocks away and one aggravated assault. Mostly it's domestic disputes - but I filtered those out as they just fill up the map otherwise.

I haven't really had the chance to dig into the stats, but year over year, NYC has seen a 31% increase in murders and 44% increase in burglary.

Unfortunately many PD's across the country have been ordered to stand down in instances of lesser crimes, and many crimes are being under reported due to Covid.

A middle aged female triathlon teammate of mine was harassed and assaulted by a group of teenagers on bicycles while doing a solo training ride in a very "safe" suburban park on Long Island last week. When she called the local PD to report it there was "nothing they could do".

Women are harassed by men at any time of day and in any place. The police generally don't do anything about it, and that has absolutely nothing to do with COVID.

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2020, 07:05:46 AM »

The explanation is really simple.

1.  There is a lot more really violent crime in the USA and Canada.

2.  Some people temperamentally have a greater aversion to crime than others.  (While I think some people are perhaps more worried than is overly necessary, most people would be really disturbed if someone who lives near them had their throat slit, gang member or not.)

3.  Some people may be personally be willing to live in an area with a certain amount of violent crime when single in their 20s-30s, but then not want that environment when raising kids or later when older and frail (60+). 

I don't think that anyone should feel guilty or ashamed for not wanting to be a victim of violent crime.  My neighborhood is very old school in many ways, and it's a place where I see kids as a young as six walking dogs or riding bikes alone and supervised.  (That's a little young for me, but when our daughter is seven we will probably let her walk to a friends house.)  We live in a suburb of a very big city, and there are occasionally people that come at night and rifle through cars.  But violent crime in the daytime?  I'm willing to guess it literally hasn't happened ever since the neighborhood was built in the late 1950s.

I think that first point is probably the big difference. I'm so curious as to why that is.

I'm not shaming anyone, I'm genuinely interested as to what the differences are and what the perceptions are.

I'm so curious as to how much danger I would have been in walking two blocks down the hill from my fancy hotel in Allentown. I took the warning very seriously, but wished I had had more time there to ask around and understand more.

Incidentally, my neighbourhood is very high in seniors and young families. Those are the two populations that tend to buy here.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 07:07:52 AM by Malcat »

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2020, 07:10:06 AM »
My brother-in-law recently moved from a pretty bad neighborhood in Albuquerque. Just looking at the crime stats map in the last month within 2-3 blocks of his old house there were 5 shots fired, 3 aggravated assaults, one armed robbery, and an auto theft. Even in my relatively nice and safe neighborhood there was a shots fired on the main street several blocks away and one aggravated assault. Mostly it's domestic disputes - but I filtered those out as they just fill up the map otherwise.

I haven't really had the chance to dig into the stats, but year over year, NYC has seen a 31% increase in murders and 44% increase in burglary.

Unfortunately many PD's across the country have been ordered to stand down in instances of lesser crimes, and many crimes are being under reported due to Covid.

A middle aged female triathlon teammate of mine was harassed and assaulted by a group of teenagers on bicycles while doing a solo training ride in a very "safe" suburban park on Long Island last week. When she called the local PD to report it there was "nothing they could do".

Women are harassed by men at any time of day and in any place. The police generally don't do anything about it, and that has absolutely nothing to do with COVID.

Violent teen "swarmings" are a huge problem in my city, but only in the nicer suburbs. Funnily enough, that would never happen in my area.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2020, 07:35:56 AM »
Women are harassed by men at any time of day and in any place. The police generally don't do anything about it, and that has absolutely nothing to do with COVID.

Wheeeeeew, there's the point flying right over your head.


ETA - this was a bunch of shitbags trying to run her off the road. Not some asshole catcalling her ;)





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« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 07:37:30 AM by 2Birds1Stone »

KBecks

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2020, 07:37:41 AM »
Iris, best wishes for your move outward.  I imagine you will be taking some plants with you? It is a big decision to make a move like that and I hope it is a very productive journey.

I was just reading an article last night about a few hotels on New York's Upper Wast Side? that are being used for homeless housing. I do not know if the New York Post has a political bent:
https://nypost.com/2020/08/06/hundreds-of-new-homeless-bring-drugs-loitering-harassment-to-uws/

It seems to fit into this kind of a "leaving the cities" conversation.

We live in a third ring suburb of a mid-size city.  So far, so good.  I am not expecting to ever need to flee, but never say never.

Side note:  my young middle-grade kid is very upset by "defund the police" and tearing down statues.  I am trying to balance him out by talking about the concerns that lead to these.  Of course, he is at an age where his thinking is between child and adult stages and he is still developing as a person.  To him this is all common sense.  Most of it is, but it is wise to understand all the sides and perspectives.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 07:47:38 AM by KBecks »

LWYRUP

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2020, 07:39:00 AM »
I suspect the person giving you advice in Allentown is a lot more cautious than I would be (even though I am more cautious than you).  I do think in some of these small PA cities, these areas used to be very homogeneous and had very little crime and now things have changed and some people are not happy about that (for reasons both justifiable (like not liking crime) and unjustifiable (like not liking diversity)). 

If I can be really frank what I think is going on is this: 

Some people recognize that crime is higher among certain groups (along socioeconomic and racial lines) and then make massively overbroad assumptions based on that.  So they will fail to distinguish between the perfectly safe black middle class neighborhood and the extremely violent neighborhood two miles away.  Or they will assume that a neighborhood that is very diverse has problems when it doesn't. 

Very liberal people will recognize this and then push too far in the other directions, and do things like claim that people who live in the suburbs instead of Baltimore are doing it because they are racist, even though there has been massive black middle class flight out of Baltimore and there are certain neighborhoods in Baltimore where if you walk around and are white there are well-meaning people in the neighborhood who will come up to you and tell you that they wished you could walk around safely in their neighborhood but that you really can't and that they would recommend that you leave.  Crime is really out of control in huge parts of Baltimore, and it's not reasonable to expect someone to just pretend that's not the case because that suits a certain type of politics. 

A lot of people who don't spend a lot of time in cities may also fail to recognize that there are places that are safe in the daytime but not at night, or that there are neighborhoods where you can walk down the main street and be OK but should probably avoid side streets unless you are with someone who lives there, etc.  Instead they just create a mental map and mark a huge swarth of the city as "avoid at all costs" and then will do things like avoid perfectly pleasant parks, museums, restaurants as a result. 

Finally, there are a lot of people who will go down to the area of our city filled with bars, get smashed, walk around alleyways alone with their designer purse and fancy phone and then get stuck up when they pass by the local housing project and then be shocked and assume the whole city is dangerous when what really happened is they took huge risks a bunch of times and then got caught out once.  But they could actually live their whole life in neighboring mostly minority residential neighborhoods nearby with no issues as long as they acted sensibly.

Similarly, there is an area near me thought of as dangerous, but the problems can really be boiled down to (1) problems between groups of teens, the worst stuff gang related and the minor stuff just dumb kids and (2) people getting robbed at night walking to their car from the subway (this is a consistent problem, so I have no freaking idea why the city does not actively address this with cameras, patrols, etc.).  Knowing this, one can know they will be pretty much 100% safe going to the mall, going to restaurants, going to the library and park, etc. as long as they avoid being alone on empty streets at night.  I visit their regularly (but I also don't live there, because I don't want to deal with the "avoid being alone at night on empty streets" mental rubric). 

I suspect you have a lot of street smarts just by being a local, and you know what's safe and when and what risks are too great.  Other people don't have those skills or don't want to navigate it all and so they just say "south side of city = crime" or "urban areas = crime" or "more than X% of people who don't look like me = crime" and wall themselves off. 

Personally, my tolerance for living near crime declined when I had kids.  But I also recognize that some people I know assume areas have lots of crime when I know them in fact to be very safe and this is because they don't have personal knowledge and are using stereotypes to fill the gaps.  But my friend who is moving out of DC that I mentioned above is not white, and he is moving from a majority white neighborhood (near the bars and restaurants) to a majority hispanic quiet suburban neighborhood, so it's obviously not the whole story.  Human life is more complicated than that. 

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2020, 07:59:34 AM »
I suspect the person giving you advice in Allentown is a lot more cautious than I would be (even though I am more cautious than you).  I do think in some of these small PA cities, these areas used to be very homogeneous and had very little crime and now things have changed and some people are not happy about that (for reasons both justifiable (like not liking crime) and unjustifiable (like not liking diversity)). 

If I can be really frank what I think is going on is this: 

Some people recognize that crime is higher among certain groups (along socioeconomic and racial lines) and then make massively overbroad assumptions based on that.  So they will fail to distinguish between the perfectly safe black middle class neighborhood and the extremely violent neighborhood two miles away.  Or they will assume that a neighborhood that is very diverse has problems when it doesn't. 

Very liberal people will recognize this and then push too far in the other directions, and do things like claim that people who live in the suburbs instead of Baltimore are doing it because they are racist, even though there has been massive black middle class flight out of Baltimore and there are certain neighborhoods in Baltimore where if you walk around and are white there are well-meaning people in the neighborhood who will come up to you and tell you that they wished you could walk around safely in their neighborhood but that you really can't and that they would recommend that you leave.  Crime is really out of control in huge parts of Baltimore, and it's not reasonable to expect someone to just pretend that's not the case because that suits a certain type of politics. 

A lot of people who don't spend a lot of time in cities may also fail to recognize that there are places that are safe in the daytime but not at night, or that there are neighborhoods where you can walk down the main street and be OK but should probably avoid side streets unless you are with someone who lives there, etc.  Instead they just create a mental map and mark a huge swarth of the city as "avoid at all costs" and then will do things like avoid perfectly pleasant parks, museums, restaurants as a result. 

Finally, there are a lot of people who will go down to the area of our city filled with bars, get smashed, walk around alleyways alone with their designer purse and fancy phone and then get stuck up when they pass by the local housing project and then be shocked and assume the whole city is dangerous when what really happened is they took huge risks a bunch of times and then got caught out once.  But they could actually live their whole life in neighboring mostly minority residential neighborhoods nearby with no issues as long as they acted sensibly.

Similarly, there is an area near me thought of as dangerous, but the problems can really be boiled down to (1) problems between groups of teens, the worst stuff gang related and the minor stuff just dumb kids and (2) people getting robbed at night walking to their car from the subway (this is a consistent problem, so I have no freaking idea why the city does not actively address this with cameras, patrols, etc.).  Knowing this, one can know they will be pretty much 100% safe going to the mall, going to restaurants, going to the library and park, etc. as long as they avoid being alone on empty streets at night.  I visit their regularly (but I also don't live there, because I don't want to deal with the "avoid being alone at night on empty streets" mental rubric). 

I suspect you have a lot of street smarts just by being a local, and you know what's safe and when and what risks are too great.  Other people don't have those skills or don't want to navigate it all and so they just say "south side of city = crime" or "urban areas = crime" or "more than X% of people who don't look like me = crime" and wall themselves off. 

Personally, my tolerance for living near crime declined when I had kids.  But I also recognize that some people I know assume areas have lots of crime when I know them in fact to be very safe and this is because they don't have personal knowledge and are using stereotypes to fill the gaps.  But my friend who is moving out of DC that I mentioned above is not white, and he is moving from a majority white neighborhood (near the bars and restaurants) to a majority hispanic quiet suburban neighborhood, so it's obviously not the whole story.  Human life is more complicated than that.

Thank you for this, I enjoyed reading your breakdown, and it blends well with my personal experience.

My area is quite racially diverse, and the crime is largely white on white biker gang crime. The street folk and addicts are largely indigenous, because here is where all of their service centers are. So I never think "oh, that cluster of street folk are dangerous gang members".

The police are also very present and quite welcomed by the community. So that's a huge difference as well.

There are no side streets I would avoid, but yes, I would hesitate to park a very nice car on some of those streets. My old condo had surface parking, and was next to a parking lot where a lot of drug deals were done, and car break ins were an issue for the really nice cars. My area is rapidly gentrifying, so more and more nice cars are showing up.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 08:05:22 AM by Malcat »

KBecks

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2020, 08:01:15 AM »
My family took a trip to Washington DC a few years ago with the kids and a year later alone.  It seemed like a wonderful city at the time, although I am not a city person.  The museums, the neighborhoods, were very nice.  We took public transportation with our kids.  I went to an event in Alexandria, and felt safe taking transportation in the suburbs to the VRBO I stayed at.

I guess that was the old Washington DC.  Nice place to visit.

It was funny listening to my young teen at the time as we were driving through Pittsburgh -- ew! ew! I don't like the city.  LOL.  He's a little older now and learning to drive and I said, in a nearby neighborhood that I always liked this area.  He said -- it's because of the trees.  My family and kids are drawn to trees, parks and nature.  When I went to Los Angeles several years ago (never had been before) a friend said "concrete jungle".
I guess it is.  The kids want nature.  I think that humans want nature and that is what I hope they will have as they get older.  It seems that if more work goes online permanently, more people will take flight to the beautiful areas.  Hopefully they don't get paved over.

OtherJen

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2020, 08:03:25 AM »
Women are harassed by men at any time of day and in any place. The police generally don't do anything about it, and that has absolutely nothing to do with COVID.

Wheeeeeew, there's the point flying right over your head.


ETA - this was a bunch of shitbags trying to run her off the road. Not some asshole catcalling her ;)





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Well, since you didn’t give the details in your previous post, whose fault is it that I missed the point?Details matter.

Your friend’s experience absolutely sucks, but my point still stands. This shit happens to women regardless of time of day and geographic location. There are a lot of shitbags out there.

KBecks

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2020, 08:18:06 AM »
As for the article, he seems to be saying that where he lives, in Washington DC, civilized society is falling apart or under attack.  Note that I am not saying "white society".  I don't think he is, either.  But we're talking about law and order, civic responsibiity, manners, etc.  When these things go away, people will flee out of self-preservation. When disorder and destruction are encouraged and/or tolerated, it's a downhill slide.  Do people want to destroy civilized society?  I think it's only a fringe, but these ideas are getting more and more attention.  Then people get fearful and it's not a good recipe for the future.

OtherJen

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2020, 08:24:47 AM »
As for the article, he seems to be saying that where he lives, in Washington DC, civilized society is falling apart or under attack.  Note that I am not saying "white society".  I don't think he is, either.  But we're talking about law and order, civic responsibiity, manners, etc.  When these things go away, people will flee out of self-preservation. When disorder and destruction are encouraged and/or tolerated, it's a downhill slide.  Do people want to destroy civilized society?  I think it's only a fringe, but these ideas are getting more and more attention.  Then people get fearful and it's not a good recipe for the future.

It reminds me of the justification for “white flight” back in the 1950s and 1960s, although today it may be more class- than race-based.

ender

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2020, 08:25:40 AM »
As for the article, he seems to be saying that where he lives, in Washington DC, civilized society is falling apart or under attack.  Note that I am not saying "white society".  I don't think he is, either.  But we're talking about law and order, civic responsibiity, manners, etc.  When these things go away, people will flee out of self-preservation. When disorder and destruction are encouraged and/or tolerated, it's a downhill slide.  Do people want to destroy civilized society?  I think it's only a fringe, but these ideas are getting more and more attention.  Then people get fearful and it's not a good recipe for the future.

If you don't believe that law/order are biased against minorities, it's fine to say law/order are breaking down and only has started to do so recently.

But if you have never been racially profiled, let alone on a regular basis for your entire life by the system which is designed to be fair and have law/order, it's a bit... off to say that law/order and civic responsibility are "fine" and only now they are "breaking down." For many people who are less privileged, these social constructs have been broken down already.

Plenty of people are already fearful of these same lauded social constructs which the affluent white folks see as the bastions of peace/prosperity.

Disorder has already been "tolerated" in many parts of society. It's just parts that most upper middle class folks tend to not experience experiencially.

Kris

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2020, 09:02:34 AM »
Women are harassed by men at any time of day and in any place. The police generally don't do anything about it, and that has absolutely nothing to do with COVID.

Wheeeeeew, there's the point flying right over your head.


ETA - this was a bunch of shitbags trying to run her off the road. Not some asshole catcalling her ;)





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Well, since you didn’t give the details in your previous post, whose fault is it that I missed the point?Details matter.

Your friend’s experience absolutely sucks, but my point still stands. This shit happens to women regardless of time of day and geographic location. There are a lot of shitbags out there.

Truth. A carful of shitbags has tried to run me off the road twice in my life. Both of those times were in small towns or rural roads outside of small towns.

bacchi

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2020, 10:11:59 AM »
I haven't really had the chance to dig into the stats, but year over year, NYC has seen a 31% increase in murders and 44% increase in burglary.

31% increase year over year? For how long?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/us/new-york-city-crime/index.html

Quote from: cnn
This year's murder count is on par with New York's murder total five years ago and is well below the elevated murder totals of the decades before that, NYPD data shows.
(bolded)

So NYC murders are just as bad is it was in 2015. Was 2015 considered particularly bad?

(For reference, there were 461 murders in NYC in 2009, much higher than this year.)


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/many-americans-are-convinced-crime-is-rising-in-the-u-s-theyre-wrong/

Quote from: 538
We are terrible at estimating our risk of crime — much worse than we are at guessing the danger of other bad things. Across that decade, respondents put their chance of being robbed in the coming year at about 15 percent. Looking back, the actual rate of robbery was 1.2 percent.



Eta: Interestingly, while murder rates have increased in the cities this year, other crimes have decreased. As the NYT quoted, crime has seen "such a weird year."

Quote from: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/upshot/murders-rising-crime-coronavirus.html
But murder in these 25 cities is up 16.1 percent in relation to last year. It’s not just a handful of cities driving this change, either. Property crime is down in 18 of the 25 sampled cities, and violent crime is down in 11 of them, but murder is up in 20 of the cities.

Also, Chicago murders are on such a tear that it might even equal...2017.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 10:27:26 AM by bacchi »

bacchi

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2020, 10:22:33 AM »
It was funny listening to my young teen at the time as we were driving through Pittsburgh -- ew! ew! I don't like the city.  LOL.  He's a little older now and learning to drive and I said, in a nearby neighborhood that I always liked this area.  He said -- it's because of the trees.  My family and kids are drawn to trees, parks and nature.  When I went to Los Angeles several years ago (never had been before) a friend said "concrete jungle".
I guess it is.  The kids want nature.  I think that humans want nature and that is what I hope they will have as they get older.  It seems that if more work goes online permanently, more people will take flight to the beautiful areas.  Hopefully they don't get paved over.

I feel the same way when flying into certain cities, like Phoenix: a sea of concrete and pools in an inhospitable environment.

Unfortunately, your fear is warranted. Beautiful areas will attract more people who will need more houses and more roads and more restaurants. Bring on the strip shopping centers!

GuitarStv

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2020, 10:52:10 AM »
Women are harassed by men at any time of day and in any place. The police generally don't do anything about it, and that has absolutely nothing to do with COVID.

Wheeeeeew, there's the point flying right over your head.


ETA - this was a bunch of shitbags trying to run her off the road. Not some asshole catcalling her ;)





Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Well, since you didn’t give the details in your previous post, whose fault is it that I missed the point?Details matter.

Your friend’s experience absolutely sucks, but my point still stands. This shit happens to women regardless of time of day and geographic location. There are a lot of shitbags out there.

Truth. A carful of shitbags has tried to run me off the road twice in my life. Both of those times were in small towns or rural roads outside of small towns.

Last year I had a truck try to run me off the road and then "roll coal" on me on a rural road just outside of a small town, well away from any large cities.  It was unusual from many other close encounters with vehicles in cities and rural areas alike in that it was a direct attack with clear attempt to do me harm.  One guy I cycle with had a half full beer bottle thrown at him from a pickup truck in a rural area while descending a hill a couple years back.  The bottle struck him in the face and caused a crash - broken nose, two broken wrists, broken collarbone.  In both cases, police weren't able to do anything at all.

My point is not that small towns are more dangerous places to cycle than cities . . . but that you can find assholes in either.  Cyclists are a vulnerable minority, and assholes of all stripes will occasionally attack them for fun.  Women cyclists doubly so, apparently.

KBecks

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2020, 11:26:39 AM »
As for the article, he seems to be saying that where he lives, in Washington DC, civilized society is falling apart or under attack.  Note that I am not saying "white society".  I don't think he is, either.  But we're talking about law and order, civic responsibiity, manners, etc.  When these things go away, people will flee out of self-preservation. When disorder and destruction are encouraged and/or tolerated, it's a downhill slide.  Do people want to destroy civilized society?  I think it's only a fringe, but these ideas are getting more and more attention.  Then people get fearful and it's not a good recipe for the future.

It reminds me of the justification for “white flight” back in the 1950s and 1960s, although today it may be more class- than race-based.

If a community becomes unsafe, or is perceived to be becoming unsafe, people will flee / leave.  I don't think there is anything wrong with making those choices, it is what nearly everyone who has the ability will do -- to move somewhere safer, nicer, more amenities, better jobs, etc. etc. etc. -- to find the best fit for their family.

There are pros and cons to all locations, for sure.  Cities with increasing violence, property destruction, crime, rudeness, etc. will drive some people away, just as small towns that lost jobs and economic opportunities will drive some people away.

Cassie

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2020, 01:43:45 PM »
40 years ago when I lived in Milwaukee there were areas where it wasn’t safe for white people and lots of drive by shootings. Do you wouldn’t be the target but could still be dead. We lived in the city but in a safer neighborhood. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood which was fine.

FINate

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2020, 02:04:39 PM »
I'm so curious about this.

What makes a city a "cesspool" and a "criminal safe haven"?

A city becomes a cesspool when criminals know there are essentially zero consequences. For example, in California, my native state, theft under $950 per incident is a misdemeanor. There is no aggregation of theft values and thieves know the law, so they go out in groups to divide the spoils to stay under the $950 limit. If they get caught, it's essentially a citation that gets ignore. Even violent crime often ends with very little in the way of consequences, with low bail and/or folks released with a promise to appear at a future date (umm, they don't).

When the same criminals are arrested and then released 10+ times in several years w/o being prosecuted, well, that seems like a criminal safe haven in my book. Lest someone accuse me of racism let me proactively point out that in my (recently) former city the vast vast majority of crime was committed by white dudes. Mostly drug related. Mass incarceration isn't the solution, but the threat of incarceration is useful to divert people to drug treatment.

We really need people to live in dense cities if we're going to effectively fight climate change. Understandably, people will not want to live in dense cities w/o yards if things like parks and public spaces are unclean, unsafe, or otherwise unattractive.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2020, 02:31:45 PM »
I'm so curious about this.

What makes a city a "cesspool" and a "criminal safe haven"?

A city becomes a cesspool when criminals know there are essentially zero consequences. For example, in California, my native state, theft under $950 per incident is a misdemeanor. There is no aggregation of theft values and thieves know the law, so they go out in groups to divide the spoils to stay under the $950 limit. If they get caught, it's essentially a citation that gets ignore. Even violent crime often ends with very little in the way of consequences, with low bail and/or folks released with a promise to appear at a future date (umm, they don't).

When the same criminals are arrested and then released 10+ times in several years w/o being prosecuted, well, that seems like a criminal safe haven in my book. Lest someone accuse me of racism let me proactively point out that in my (recently) former city the vast vast majority of crime was committed by white dudes. Mostly drug related. Mass incarceration isn't the solution, but the threat of incarceration is useful to divert people to drug treatment.

We really need people to live in dense cities if we're going to effectively fight climate change. Understandably, people will not want to live in dense cities w/o yards if things like parks and public spaces are unclean, unsafe, or otherwise unattractive.

One of my Soldiers in my National Guard unit is a Police Officer. He describes his job like he's just collecting points. He arrests someone and then the charges get dropped or they're released on bail (or no bail most times) and it might take a year or two for them to actually go to trial. A few weeks or months later he's arresting them again.

A former Soldier decided that when the police showed up to a domestic dispute call that he'd go get his AR-15 and shoot at them (he was pretty drunk so not making the best decisions). He fired off about 30 rounds at the police, they shot and wounded him. As soon as he got out of the hospital I think he might have spent a week or two in jail before he was released without bail. This happened almost two years ago and he's been walking around since. Perhaps they'll finally have a trial next year. 

If you can fire 30 rounds from a rifle at the Police and be walking free weeks later - I'm not sure what else that indicates but a criminal safe haven.

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2020, 02:59:21 PM »
I'm so curious about this.

What makes a city a "cesspool" and a "criminal safe haven"?

A city becomes a cesspool when criminals know there are essentially zero consequences. For example, in California, my native state, theft under $950 per incident is a misdemeanor. There is no aggregation of theft values and thieves know the law, so they go out in groups to divide the spoils to stay under the $950 limit. If they get caught, it's essentially a citation that gets ignore. Even violent crime often ends with very little in the way of consequences, with low bail and/or folks released with a promise to appear at a future date (umm, they don't).

When the same criminals are arrested and then released 10+ times in several years w/o being prosecuted, well, that seems like a criminal safe haven in my book. Lest someone accuse me of racism let me proactively point out that in my (recently) former city the vast vast majority of crime was committed by white dudes. Mostly drug related. Mass incarceration isn't the solution, but the threat of incarceration is useful to divert people to drug treatment.

We really need people to live in dense cities if we're going to effectively fight climate change. Understandably, people will not want to live in dense cities w/o yards if things like parks and public spaces are unclean, unsafe, or otherwise unattractive.

Interesting, because Canada isn't exactly hard on crime.

GuitarStv

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2020, 03:08:42 PM »
I'm so curious about this.

What makes a city a "cesspool" and a "criminal safe haven"?

A city becomes a cesspool when criminals know there are essentially zero consequences. For example, in California, my native state, theft under $950 per incident is a misdemeanor. There is no aggregation of theft values and thieves know the law, so they go out in groups to divide the spoils to stay under the $950 limit. If they get caught, it's essentially a citation that gets ignore. Even violent crime often ends with very little in the way of consequences, with low bail and/or folks released with a promise to appear at a future date (umm, they don't).

When the same criminals are arrested and then released 10+ times in several years w/o being prosecuted, well, that seems like a criminal safe haven in my book. Lest someone accuse me of racism let me proactively point out that in my (recently) former city the vast vast majority of crime was committed by white dudes. Mostly drug related. Mass incarceration isn't the solution, but the threat of incarceration is useful to divert people to drug treatment.

We really need people to live in dense cities if we're going to effectively fight climate change. Understandably, people will not want to live in dense cities w/o yards if things like parks and public spaces are unclean, unsafe, or otherwise unattractive.

Interesting, because Canada isn't exactly hard on crime.

Neither is Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, or Sweden.  All very lenient on crime, and boasting some of the lowest crime rates in the world.  'Tough on crime' legislation, poor prison conditions with few programs offered for rehabilitation, and things like mandatory minimum sentences are often shown in studies to increase rather than reduce crime and recidivism.

brooklynmoney

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2020, 03:10:29 PM »
Just so everyone knows the NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch and is designed to sow fear etc. People in the comments of that Poat article referenced about people fleeing the upper west side pointed out that the dude in the pic with the booze is a local and has been on that neighborhood for years and is not part of any new influx of addicts etc.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2020, 03:16:34 PM »


I'm not shaming anyone, I'm genuinely interested as to what the differences are and what the perceptions are.



Here are some differences.

In some cities some sidewalks are cesspools.

For instance, in  some places in San Francisco there are used hypodermic needles and human urine/feces  on the sidewalks and right by entrances to buildings.

San Francisco is ~150 miles from my home that is located on rural, woodsy acreage.

On my property    coyotes, deer, and  foxes  are the source of  urine/feces on the ground.

The only needles are pine needles that dropped from pine trees.

There's almost no violent crime in my county and NO human urine/feces or used hypodermic needles on ANY sidewalk.


 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 03:20:13 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

FINate

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2020, 03:35:43 PM »
I'm so curious about this.

What makes a city a "cesspool" and a "criminal safe haven"?

A city becomes a cesspool when criminals know there are essentially zero consequences. For example, in California, my native state, theft under $950 per incident is a misdemeanor. There is no aggregation of theft values and thieves know the law, so they go out in groups to divide the spoils to stay under the $950 limit. If they get caught, it's essentially a citation that gets ignore. Even violent crime often ends with very little in the way of consequences, with low bail and/or folks released with a promise to appear at a future date (umm, they don't).

When the same criminals are arrested and then released 10+ times in several years w/o being prosecuted, well, that seems like a criminal safe haven in my book. Lest someone accuse me of racism let me proactively point out that in my (recently) former city the vast vast majority of crime was committed by white dudes. Mostly drug related. Mass incarceration isn't the solution, but the threat of incarceration is useful to divert people to drug treatment.

We really need people to live in dense cities if we're going to effectively fight climate change. Understandably, people will not want to live in dense cities w/o yards if things like parks and public spaces are unclean, unsafe, or otherwise unattractive.

Interesting, because Canada isn't exactly hard on crime.

Neither is Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, or Sweden.  All very lenient on crime, and boasting some of the lowest crime rates in the world.  'Tough on crime' legislation, poor prison conditions with few programs offered for rehabilitation, and things like mandatory minimum sentences are often shown in studies to increase rather than reduce crime and recidivism.

It's not about being hard on crime. Polarization in the US has created a false choice between being hard vs soft on crime. And our prison system is focused on punishment and designed to brutalize people while they are incarcerated. Intentionally breaking people who will (mostly) be released back into society is about the dumbest thing I can think of. Yet we do it.

But that doesn't mean we should stop enforcing laws. Every society develops norms for social behavior. You can walk down the street with an open container in many European cities (I'm most familiar with Germany), but getting plastered and disturbing the peace generally isn't tolerated (certain events/venues excepted). Nor is pooping or shooting up in parks or other anti-social behavior tolerated.

While working and bike commuting in Munich I was stuck by the very large number of bikes in the downtown area that were not locked. Like, almost all of them. I'm sure bike theft exists there, but apparently not enough of a problem for most people to bother with a lock. I don't think this is because German prisons are exceptionally hard or sentences exceptionally long. On the contrary, it seems prisons are more humane and sentences shorter (to fit the crime) along with well funded wrap-around services, yet there are still actual consequences for things like theft. And beyond law enforcement, German (and European in general) society as a whole is not shy about correcting you if you do something contrary to accepted norms, which happened to me on occasion and for which I was thankful.

Contrast this with things like the following story from a blogger in my former city, http://www.santamierda.com/2020/07/31/the-weekly-dump-7-31-20/:

Quote
Last week, CHP arrested a 31 year old Boulder Creek man for a deadly hit-and-run that killed a 73 year old woman two weeks ago. He was arrested on the 2300 block of Stevens Creek Boulevard in San Jose. The Boulder Creek woman was reported missing on July 14th and her body was found down an embankment off Bear Creek Road after being struck by a vehicle two days later. He’s been arrested at least 20 times locally since 2014. He was arrested 6 times locally in 2019. We arrest this shithead every other month. It was only a matter of time until he killed someone and that time came due. And the blood stain is on those who enabled it.

Sadly, stories like this are not unusual and are an almost weekly occurrence. I wonder, is this kind of thing going on in Canadian cities?

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2020, 03:39:53 PM »



There are pros and cons to all locations, for sure.  Cities with increasing violence, property destruction, crime, rudeness, etc. will drive some people away, just as small towns that lost jobs and economic opportunities will drive some people away.

My rural county is emblematic of  these pros and cons.

People move here to get away from the crime and madding din of  cities.

Children born here move away when they enter the labor market due to a paucity of   career opportunities.

FINate

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2020, 03:42:01 PM »
Here's another fairly typical example, http://www.santamierda.com/2020/07/17/the-weekly-dump-7-17-20/:

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Last Saturday around 2:30AM, SCPD responded to the 300 block of Pacific Avenue for some kind of reported disturbance. Apparently, a woman shot a handgun inside a vehicle during an argument with her boyfriend. She also reportedly pistol whipped him with the gun and pointed it at his head as he was driving. The boyfriend managed to escape this lunatic and called SCPD.

Officers detained the woman and recovered a pistol hidden in a trash can outside a hotel on Pacific Avenue. She was arrested and charged her with domestic violence, assault with a deadly weapon (a gun), willful negligent discharge of a firearm, and carrying a loaded gun into a public place. She bailed out of jail on a $25K bond. All that mayhem and she gets a $25K bond. She’s already out of jail!

Come on! Who can blame people for wanting to avoid this kind of madness. It's bad enough that this happens in the first place, but a $25k bond means she only had to put up $2500 to be back out on the street again.

Metalcat

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2020, 03:43:16 PM »


I'm not shaming anyone, I'm genuinely interested as to what the differences are and what the perceptions are.



Here are some differences.

In some cities some sidewalks are cesspools.

For instance, in  some places in San Francisco there are used hypodermic needles and human urine/feces  on the sidewalks and right by entrances to buildings.

San Francisco is ~150 miles from my home that is located on rural, woodsy acreage.

On my property    coyotes, deer, and  foxes  are the source of  urine/feces on the ground.

The only needles are pine needles that dropped from pine trees.

There's almost no violent crime in my county and NO human urine/feces or used hypodermic needles on ANY sidewalk.

Follow up question, is this the same type of cesspool OP is referring to? Is there a rising violent crime problem in SF coinciding with the increased homelessness problem?

Interestingly there are no needles on my streets despite addicts in the street being plentiful, but that's because we have a robust safe injection and methadone programs and needle disposal boxes (look like mail boxes) on most corners.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2020, 04:47:20 PM »


I'm not shaming anyone, I'm genuinely interested as to what the differences are and what the perceptions are.



Here are some differences.

In some cities some sidewalks are cesspools.

For instance, in  some places in San Francisco there are used hypodermic needles and human urine/feces  on the sidewalks and right by entrances to buildings.

San Francisco is ~150 miles from my home that is located on rural, woodsy acreage.

On my property    coyotes, deer, and  foxes  are the source of  urine/feces on the ground.

The only needles are pine needles that dropped from pine trees.

There's almost no violent crime in my county and NO human urine/feces or used hypodermic needles on ANY sidewalk.

Follow up question, is this the same type of cesspool OP is referring to? Is there a rising violent crime problem in SF coinciding with the increased homelessness problem?

Interestingly there are no needles on my streets despite addicts in the street being plentiful, but that's because we have a robust safe injection and methadone programs and needle disposal boxes (look like mail boxes) on most corners.


cess·pool
/ˈsesˌpo͞ol/

noun
an underground container for the temporary storage of liquid waste and sewage.
a disgusting or corrupt place.

"they should clean out their own political cesspool"

cesspool - Urban Dictionarywww.urbandictionary.com › define › term=cesspool
Back. Loading... Top definition. cesspool. synonym for shithole, dump, trash, and hell. can be used to describe a neighborhood or a city. For a real life example of a ..

I  do not think OP used "cesspool" for its literal meaning that defines an underground  container that stores sewage.

I think OP used "cesspool"  for its other definitions listed above.

I earnestly  expect that  no one would argue that discarded needles and excreta on some city sidewalks are not  a manifestation of  a deteriorated quality of life.

IDK about current, violent  crime statistics in San Francisco.


KBecks

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2020, 04:49:28 PM »
Just so everyone knows the NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch and is designed to sow fear etc. People in the comments of that Poat article referenced about people fleeing the upper west side pointed out that the dude in the pic with the booze is a local and has been on that neighborhood for years and is not part of any new influx of addicts etc.

Here's an NBC story about the homeless in hotels in NYC:
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-residents-want-homeless-moved-out-of-hotels-fear-their-safety-is-compromised/2556242/

GuitarStv

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Re: Leaving the cities
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2020, 04:50:57 PM »
Man, if a little poop bothers you, you definitely don't wanna live in a rural area.  At least not a rural farming community in the spring when they fertilize.  :P