Author Topic: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.  (Read 67781 times)

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2015, 06:20:24 PM »
There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker. 

Sure, they might admire the Quaker's values, but I bet they would also agree that the Quaker should probably find another line of work. Which I don't think Kim Davis's supporters will concede.

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2015, 06:22:24 PM »
Well, given that apparently, Hillary Clinton is not the only elected representative who has ever used a private email account, I'm not sure she is the only one who should be pilloried.

Clinton had top secret/classified emails on a private server that were likely hacked by America's enemies. That's not only a severe breach of security, but may also have led to the death of Americans.

But as I pointed out earlier...the left have an amazing capacity to overlook or minimize instances like this, and the lack of outrage from the left is quite telling.

Music Lover: no offense, but I just don't have the emotional energy to deal with more than one Fox News aficionado at a time.

I'm Canadian...I have no interest in Fox News. Nice try at deflecting, though :) :)

Damn. That doesn't speak well of Canadians. I always thought of them as such reasonable, measured people.

So you thought this up all by yourself, did you?

Yup...I thought of it all by myself and did such a good job convincing people that Clinton herself has even publicly admitted it, and the department of justice is now investigating her.

I'm that awesome.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3047
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2015, 06:22:58 PM »
It always struck me as odd that nobody on the right will own up to watching Fox news, nobody on the left wants to watch Fox news . . . and yet Fox is the most popular news program in America and shows year over year growth quite reliably.

Well, NO ONE on MMM is watching it, that's for sure.  We all killed our cable subscription/bill a long time ago :)

Cressida

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2376
  • Location: Sunset Zone 5
  • gender is a hierarchy
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2015, 06:27:00 PM »
There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker. 

Sure, they might admire the Quaker's values, but I bet they would also agree that the Quaker should probably find another line of work. Which I don't think Kim Davis's supporters will concede.

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

[god why am I responding to MoonShadow] The difference is that Kim Davis is being paid specifically to uphold the law. It is disingenuous not to acknowledge that.

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2015, 06:32:53 PM »
“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

“It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen.”
― Aristotle

“An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

 "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. "
― Henry David Thoreau

 Now the law of nonviolence says that violence should be resisted not by counter-violence but by nonviolence. This I do by breaking the law and by peacefully submitting to arrest and imprisonment.”
― Mahatma Gandhi

"Therefore, to begin the process of change, to stop a war, to establish justice, it may be necessary to break the law, to commit acts of civil disobedience, as Southern black did, as antiwar protesters did.”
― Howard Zinn

" It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right.”
― Henry David Thoreau

“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

I should add that ML King was a Republican.

Cressida

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2376
  • Location: Sunset Zone 5
  • gender is a hierarchy
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2015, 06:40:18 PM »
I should add that ML King was a Republican.

Oh for fuck's sake. He was a black Southerner in the 50s-60s. Of course he was a Republican. You're really riding the disingenuousness hard today.


MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #107 on: September 04, 2015, 06:44:41 PM »
The difference is that Kim Davis is being paid specifically to uphold the law. It is disingenuous not to acknowledge that.

Civil disobedience would be a thousand times more effective if the agents of the state itself engaged in it concerning laws for which they do not agree.  Roughly one fifth of police in the US today, when polled anonymously, disagree with the nature and goals of the drug war.  Think about how quickly the drug war would cease to be an injustice if we, collectively, recognized that those same police have the right to judge the laws they are asked to enforce.  Instead, our modern US seems to believe that public officials must resign their right to express their beliefs, simply because it would contradict with the official position of their employer.  It has not always been this way, not even in the US.  There was a time that the sheriff, the marshal, and the constable were expected to use their judgement in enforcing laws.  There was even a time that the term "the law" did not refer to edicts of civil leadership, but instead to juris naturalis; the natural laws.  We have traveled so far down a different path, most people never learn that we were ever on another.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11502
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #108 on: September 04, 2015, 06:48:48 PM »
Perhaps an internet forum isn't the most likely place to encounter anyone who still makes a habit of watching television at all. 
Good point. 

One could take MSNBC and Fox in equal measures, find the average, and have a decent chance of having as reasonable (or better) a position than either extreme.

Actually, the "RealClear" folks (e.g., http://www.realclearpolitics.com/) often do a good job of juxtaposing different slants on the same topic in consecutive links.


Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7354
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #110 on: September 04, 2015, 06:53:24 PM »
There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker. 

Sure, they might admire the Quaker's values, but I bet they would also agree that the Quaker should probably find another line of work. Which I don't think Kim Davis's supporters will concede.

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

Not if I had taken a vow TO UPHOLD THE LAW.

Cressida

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2376
  • Location: Sunset Zone 5
  • gender is a hierarchy
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #111 on: September 04, 2015, 06:57:04 PM »
There was a time that the sheriff, the marshal, and the constable were expected to use their judgement in enforcing laws. 

Assuming that's true: Yeah, that sure sounds like a great idea. Law enforcement always has superior judgment.

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #112 on: September 04, 2015, 06:58:08 PM »
There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker. 

Sure, they might admire the Quaker's values, but I bet they would also agree that the Quaker should probably find another line of work. Which I don't think Kim Davis's supporters will concede.

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

Not if I had taken a vow TO UPHOLD THE LAW.

I find that response truly depressing.

Metta

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 773
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #113 on: September 04, 2015, 07:00:08 PM »
I thought it might be helpful to add the following fact, which I haven't seen mentioned in the popular news media.

As explained in my previous post, Davis is not imprisoned as punishment, but solely to coerce her into compliance with the court's orders. The flip side of this is that if Davis's religious beliefs are really sufficiently sincere that jail will not persuade her to comply with the law, then there is no basis for keeping her in jail since the sole legal basis for it is coercion. Indeed, if Davis can persuade Judge Bunning or an appellate court that imprisonment is not going to change her mind, then they will have to release her, even though she continues to flout the law. See, e.g., In re Lawrence, 279 F.3d 1294 (11th Cir 2002) (explaining that "[i]f the ... judge determines that, although [Davis] has the ability to [comply], [s]he will steadfastly refuse to do so, the judge will be obligated to release [Davis] because the subject incarceration would no longer serve the civil purpose of coercion").

In due course, Davis will have the opportunity to argue that no matter how long she remains in jail, she will not comply with the court's orders, and if the judge is persuaded that that is true, Davis will be released.

So she can simply wait this out, then go back to her job, and continue to refuse to issue marriage licenses or allow her clerks to do so forever? How does this play out in reality if people know that they can flout the law without much recourse if they are willing to wait out a period of time in jail? Are there examples of this?

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7354
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #114 on: September 04, 2015, 07:04:11 PM »
There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker. 

Sure, they might admire the Quaker's values, but I bet they would also agree that the Quaker should probably find another line of work. Which I don't think Kim Davis's supporters will concede.

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

Not if I had taken a vow TO UPHOLD THE LAW.

I find that response truly depressing.

Well. Whatever.

As a private citizen, I would resist the shit out of something I didn't agree with. In fact, as a U of Wisconsin employee, I am fixin' to do just that. 

But if I had taken a vow to uphold the laws I represented? Yes I would . And if I felt I could not, I would resign, with great fanfare.

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #115 on: September 04, 2015, 07:06:24 PM »
As a private citizen, I would resist the shit out of something I didn't agree with. In fact, as a U of Wisconsin employee, I am fixin' to do just that. 

Oh, please; do go on...

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #116 on: September 04, 2015, 07:10:48 PM »
Oh, sure, I meant those examples specifically in response to the reactions I've seen in this case. People are talking like the fact that she defied the government or isn't doing her job is, ipso facto, a moral slam dunk against her. But most people, if they think about their views across a range of examples, would find that they don't think of defying the government as being either bad or good but base their judgement entirely on whether they agree with the reason for it.

Roger! Thanks for the clarification. The bolded part really snapped it in for me and I understand your argument even better now.
Whew :)
And I want to add that all this is not to say her defiance is irrelevant and can't be part of the conversation. As midweststache indicates, there are levels and particulars that go into how we should judge it and we can talk about that.
(Also, I tried to post this right after your response but my connection timed out while I was doing something else. I now see that we can have a rich discussion on the sub-topic of defiance while on the job.)

Quote
We should try harder as a species. We could even look at the discussion as a MMM type exercise - willingly enduring the discomfort of truly considering an opposing viewpoint. Then we could have debate, instead of camps talking past each other.

Amen. A-fucking-men.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7354
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #117 on: September 04, 2015, 07:14:16 PM »
As a private citizen, I would resist the shit out of something I didn't agree with. In fact, as a U of Wisconsin employee, I am fixin' to do just that. 

Oh, please; do go on...

Well, I will say that, if you pay attention to the media, if someone named Kris shows up soon as a protester, you will know.

iamlindoro

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
    • The Earth Awaits
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #118 on: September 04, 2015, 07:14:21 PM »
I should add that ML King was a Republican.

Should you?

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/08/28/2540251/martin-luther-king-republican/

I'll see your factually difficient deficient article, and raise you a Lincoln.

http://blackrepublican.blogspot.com/2015/05/why-dr-martin-luther-king-jr-was_12.html?_sm_au_=iVV4fSTrTjt6B6k5

So by "he was a Republican" you mean "didn't ever register Republican," "didn't ever endorse a Republican," and... wait, where do we disagree again?  Wanting to claim someone as a member of your political party does not make them a member, especially when that person is unable to confirm or deny your conclusion.

Where is the part of your article that shows that MLK was affiliated in any official way with Republicans?  If the point you want to make is that his interests more closely aligned with the Republicans of the time than with the Democrats of the time, there might be a basis to make that argument-- but "MLK was a Republican" simply holds no water.

Sailor Sam

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5732
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #119 on: September 04, 2015, 07:21:02 PM »
Hey ho, MoonShadow, I've got a question. Can you please clarify the backbone of your argument? I'm having trouble understanding, and I don't think real discussion can happen without understanding the fundamentals of the debate. 

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #120 on: September 04, 2015, 07:29:20 PM »


 difficient deficient 
Hey, thanks.  My autocorrect sucks.

Quote
So by "he was a Republican" you mean "didn't ever register Republican," "didn't ever endorse a Republican," and... wait, where do we disagree again? Wanting to claim someone as a member of your political party does not make them a member, especially when that person is unable to confirm or deny your conclusion.

Whoa! Hold on there slick.  This isn't my claim, and I'm not a republican either.  The National Black Republicans claim him, and from what I can tell, they have enough evidence to support the claim.  Including, but not limited to, evidence that both his father and his daughter were/are Republicans, as well as statements made over the years by family members that he was, in fact, a Republican.  If you need an actual party registration form signed by MLK, Jr.; that sounds a bit like birthers demanding the original long form birth cert out of Hawaii.  It doesn't exist, and it shouldn't be necessary.  If you reject their evidence, it's incumbent upon yourself to produce more authoritative evidence to the contrary.  Such as it is, I doubt that either one of us are going to be able to do any such thing. 

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #121 on: September 04, 2015, 07:30:45 PM »
Hey ho, MoonShadow, I've got a question. Can you please clarify the backbone of your argument? I'm having trouble understanding, and I don't think real discussion can happen without understanding the fundamentals of the debate.

Sure, but can you let me know which debate you are asking about?  The original topic, or one of the side topics that came later?

Cathy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #122 on: September 04, 2015, 07:35:35 PM »
So she can simply wait this out, then go back to her job, and continue to refuse to issue marriage licenses or allow her clerks to do so forever? How does this play out in reality if people know that they can flout the law without much recourse if they are willing to wait out a period of time in jail? Are there examples of this?

There are indeed examples of people "waiting out" civil contempt sanctions. The case I cited, In re Lawrence, supra, is one such example. Stephan Jay Lawrence was incarcerated for civil contempt for refusing to turn over assets that he was keeping offshore in some shady asset protection vehicle. After approximately six years in jail, he was able to persuade the judge that he would never turn over the moneys, so he was released. So yes, waiting is one way to possibly beat civil contempt, but you might have to wait for a long time (although maybe not; there's no specific rule governing this).

If Davis ultimately cannot be swayed through civil contempt, other approaches will need to be used. One approach might be criminal contempt, which is a crime (unlike civil contempt), so it requires a formal trial and other proceedings usually used in criminal cases. Davis might also have committed state crimes that local prosecutors could pursue against her. It's hard to say what would be used next if she does not relent. However, for any criminal case involving a jail sentence of more than six months (including a criminal contempt case), Davis is entitled to trial by jury, which could make it difficult to secure a conviction if the local community supports her. (Juries are not required for civil contempt because the person is not being punished, merely coerced.)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 07:51:36 PM by Cathy »

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7354
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #123 on: September 04, 2015, 07:35:40 PM »


 difficient deficient 
Hey, thanks.  My autocorrect sucks.

Quote
So by "he was a Republican" you mean "didn't ever register Republican," "didn't ever endorse a Republican," and... wait, where do we disagree again? Wanting to claim someone as a member of your political party does not make them a member, especially when that person is unable to confirm or deny your conclusion.

Whoa! Hold on there slick.  This isn't my claim, and I'm not a republican either.  The National Black Republicans claim him, and from what I can tell, they have enough evidence to support the claim.  Including, but not limited to, evidence that both his father and his daughter were/are Republicans, as well as statements made over the years by family members that he was, in fact, a Republican.  If you need an actual party registration form signed by MLK, Jr.; that sounds a bit like birthers demanding the original long form birth cert out of Hawaii.  It doesn't exist, and it shouldn't be necessary.  If you reject their evidence, it's incumbent upon yourself to produce more authoritative evidence to the contrary.  Such as it is, I doubt that either one of us are going to be able to do any such thing.

Pretty sure you refuse to affiliate so that you can flit back and forth among positions without ever having to commit to any consistent train of thought,

MoonShadow, it just isn't worth engaging with you when your main way of engaging is to slip around like a slick willie (yup! I went there!) and refuse to actually stand your ground on any one perspective.  You are a classic sophist. Except without the mental acuity.

ETA: i don't think I'm going to bother with continuing to talk to you.  I genuinely enjoy conversing with people whose perspectives differ from mine. When their perspectives are consistent and well thought out., that is.  I have come to regard you as the forum's Donald Trump.  Most of the time, you make no sense. Then, like the proverbial broken clock, you briefly say something that seems to have taken some thought. And then, while I am hoping this means something positive, it's right back to word salad.

Sorry. Just not worth it.  I prefer to dialog with people who are better at thinking critically.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 07:43:56 PM by Kris »

iamlindoro

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
    • The Earth Awaits
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #124 on: September 04, 2015, 07:42:49 PM »
Whoa! Hold on there slick.  This isn't my claim, and I'm not a republican either.  The National Black Republicans claim him, and from what I can tell, they have enough evidence to support the claim.  Including, but not limited to, evidence that both his father and his daughter were/are Republicans, as well as statements made over the years by family members that he was, in fact, a Republican.  If you need an actual party registration form signed by MLK, Jr.; that sounds a bit like birthers demanding the original long form birth cert out of Hawaii.  It doesn't exist, and it shouldn't be necessary.  If you reject their evidence, it's incumbent upon yourself to produce more authoritative evidence to the contrary.  Such as it is, I doubt that either one of us are going to be able to do any such thing.

Sure, why not.  How about a quote from his father about having expected to vote against Kennedy based on his religion, but deciding instead to vote for him, and to deliver as many black votes as possible?

http://www.newsmax.com/US/martin-luther-king-republican/2013/09/01/id/523296/

Quote
Dr. King's pastor-father "Daddy" King told reporters, "I had expected to vote against Sen. Kennedy because of his religion. But now he can be my president, Catholic or whatever he is. It took courage to call my daughter-in-law at a time like this. I've got all my votes and I've got a suitcase and I'm going up there and dump them in [Kennedy's] lap."

Later:

Quote
As Presidents Kennedy and later Lyndon Johnson embraced the civil rights cause, King was identified increasingly with the Democratic Party, although he maintained his policy of not endorsing candidates.

Republican orators increasingly denounced him, noting the clergyman's later embrace of the anti-Vietnam War movement and his friendship with the far left, notably King’s close friend and advisor Stanley Levison, a former member of the Communist Party of the U.S.

On the part of his children, which shall we believe?  Here's a fine quote from his son, MLK III:

Quote
"It is disingenuous to imply that my father was a Republican. He never endorsed any presidential candidate, and there is certainly no evidence that he ever even voted for a Republican."

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/mlking.asp#BYzF7TW2hHCzaKkL.99

And so, at the very least, any attempt to claim MLK Jr. as a Republican is dubious at best, and wrong at worst.

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #125 on: September 04, 2015, 07:43:10 PM »

Pretty sure you refuse to affiliate so that you can flit back and forth among positions without ever having to commit to any consistent train of thought,

My perspectives are not very hard to predict, for one who understands libertarian political thought.

Quote
MoonShadow, it just isn't worth engaging with you when your main way of engaging is to slip around like a slick willie (yup! I went there!)

That's cute, but my wife wouldn't have claimed it was a "vast, right wing conspiracy", she would have just shot me and dumped my corpse in the woods for the wolves to find.  She is patient enough to wait it out and claim the life insurance after 7 years.

Quote
and refuse to actually stand your ground on any one perspective.  You are a classic sophist. Except without the mental acuity.

Ouch! You are getting good at this!  Don't leave me now, Kris; this is just starting to get fun!

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #126 on: September 04, 2015, 07:47:45 PM »
There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker. 

Sure, they might admire the Quaker's values, but I bet they would also agree that the Quaker should probably find another line of work. Which I don't think Kim Davis's supporters will concede.

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

Not if I had taken a vow TO UPHOLD THE LAW.

I find that response truly depressing.

Oh man, I find this kind of depressing too. And it's odd, I usually agree with Kris. Often, I have decided not to bother commenting on a thread when I see she has already posted something as trenchant and brilliantly insightful as what I was going to.

So, you're a sheriff in the North and you'd return captured slaves because that's the law? You're a police officer so you wouldn't join the French Resistance?

Or maybe you're just saying that in the current climate, fanfare surrounding one's resignation is the route more likely to be effective.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #127 on: September 04, 2015, 07:49:57 PM »
It always struck me as odd that nobody on the right will own up to watching Fox news, nobody on the left wants to watch Fox news . . . and yet Fox is the most popular news program in America and shows year over year growth quite reliably.

The reason you may not have met people who watch Fox News is that the average age of their viewers is 71 (I can't remember if that's just Bill O'Reilly's viewers or the network as a whole, but the numbers are similar). And you probably don't know a lot of 71 year olds. And even the "most popular" news program only gets a few million people watching it. So that's like 1% of the country watching it in a given night. It's really easy to not associate with those small numbers of people.

But I do know some viewers. My mom watches Fox News. She's actually young for their demo.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7354
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #128 on: September 04, 2015, 07:50:05 PM »
There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker. 

Sure, they might admire the Quaker's values, but I bet they would also agree that the Quaker should probably find another line of work. Which I don't think Kim Davis's supporters will concede.

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

Not if I had taken a vow TO UPHOLD THE LAW.

I find that response truly depressing.

Oh man, I find this kind of depressing too. And it's odd, I usually agree with Kris. Often, I have decided not to bother commenting on a thread when I see she has already posted something as trenchant and brilliantly insightful as what I was going to.

So, you're a sheriff in the North and you'd return captured slaves because that's the law? You're a police officer so you wouldn't join the French Resistance?

Or maybe you're just saying that in the current climate, fanfare surrounding one's resignation is the route more likely to be effective.

No. I would like to believe I would look deeply at whether the law is in favor of preserving rights, or taking away those rights. And if I saw that it was in favor of taking away rights, I would resign and join the resistance.

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #129 on: September 04, 2015, 07:53:45 PM »
Whoa! Hold on there slick.  This isn't my claim, and I'm not a republican either.  The National Black Republicans claim him, and from what I can tell, they have enough evidence to support the claim.  Including, but not limited to, evidence that both his father and his daughter were/are Republicans, as well as statements made over the years by family members that he was, in fact, a Republican.  If you need an actual party registration form signed by MLK, Jr.; that sounds a bit like birthers demanding the original long form birth cert out of Hawaii.  It doesn't exist, and it shouldn't be necessary.  If you reject their evidence, it's incumbent upon yourself to produce more authoritative evidence to the contrary.  Such as it is, I doubt that either one of us are going to be able to do any such thing.

Sure, why not.  How about a quote from his father about having expected to vote against Kennedy based on his religion, but deciding instead to vote for him, and to deliver as many black votes as possible?

I think you already know that doesn't amount to much.  Republicans have voted for Dems before, and dems have voted for Republicans before.  A change of party is not an actual requirement.  As for his son's comment; I don't know that we should believe either sibling over the other, but his sister is not alone among his family in their belief that MLK, Jr favored the Repubs in private; even if he supported no one in public.

Quote
And so, at the very least, any attempt to claim MLK Jr. as a Republican is dubious at best, and wrong at worst.

I would say, based on your assertions above, that for me to claim that my own father was a Republican was dubious.  After all, I never saw any document that would imply it, and I know that he has voted democrat before; so growing up around the man and recalling that he favored the repubs just wouldn't be solid enough evidence.

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #130 on: September 04, 2015, 07:58:18 PM »

Oh man, I find this kind of depressing too. And it's odd, I usually agree with Kris.

So which part is worse, discovering that Kris is flawed and has failed to live up to your expectations?  Or discovering that you landed on my side of this conversation?

This thread really is getting entertaining...

iamlindoro

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
    • The Earth Awaits
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #131 on: September 04, 2015, 07:58:38 PM »
I would say, based on your assertions above, that for me to claim that my own father was a Republican was dubious.  After all, I never saw any document that would imply it, and I know that he has voted democrat before; so growing up around the man and recalling that he favored the repubs just wouldn't be solid enough evidence.

Correct.  I would conclude that if you claimed your father favored "A," and your sister claimed that there was no basis for that belief, that the two pieces of hearsay evidence negated one another and made it impossible to reach a meaningful conclusion.  So yes.  That's right.  That's why it's impossible to make any conclusive claim about MLK's political affiliation-- because there is no direct evidence to support a conclusion either way, and copious circumstantial evidence that is contradictory.

Glad we all can agree.

protostache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 903
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #132 on: September 04, 2015, 08:00:55 PM »
There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker. 

Sure, they might admire the Quaker's values, but I bet they would also agree that the Quaker should probably find another line of work. Which I don't think Kim Davis's supporters will concede.

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

Not if I had taken a vow TO UPHOLD THE LAW.

I find that response truly depressing.

Oh man, I find this kind of depressing too. And it's odd, I usually agree with Kris. Often, I have decided not to bother commenting on a thread when I see she has already posted something as trenchant and brilliantly insightful as what I was going to.

So, you're a sheriff in the North and you'd return captured slaves because that's the law? You're a police officer so you wouldn't join the French Resistance?

Or maybe you're just saying that in the current climate, fanfare surrounding one's resignation is the route more likely to be effective.

No. I would like to believe I would look deeply at whether the law is in favor of preserving rights, or taking away those rights. And if I saw that it was in favor of taking away rights, I would resign and join the resistance.

+1. This whole debate is disingenuous. She can't claim moral high ground for a position that removes rights, and comparing her to MLK, Jr., of all people, is distorting what he and the entire civil rights movement stood and stands for.

Sailor Sam

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5732
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #133 on: September 04, 2015, 08:05:42 PM »
Hey ho, MoonShadow, I've got a question. Can you please clarify the backbone of your argument? I'm having trouble understanding, and I don't think real discussion can happen without understanding the fundamentals of the debate.

Sure, but can you let me know which debate you are asking about?  The original topic, or one of the side topics that came later?

The original argument, I suppose. I've re-read all your applicable posts, and I've found a few themes:
  • Davis shouldn’t go to jail because her refusal to issue licenses was motivated by religious beliefs;
  • Davis shouldn’t go to jail because her refusal did not harm anyone
  • No rights were violated because of the close proximity of more agreeable clerk’s offices;
  • We are being manipulated. Davis is a pawn (victim/martyr) of conservative christians. They cozied up to her position, and are thrilled at the publicity of the contempt conviction (is it a conviction? A ruling? cathy?) and jail time. The case will end up back at the Supreme Court, and the only ones who will benefit are the lawyers
  • The world needs folks who will refuse work when their personal morals are violated. Davis' oaths do not matter as she was following her conscious.

Is your argument that Davis should be quietly fired and ignored to avoid the political theater?

Or that she should not have been found in contempt because she represents only one clerks office in KY?

Or that Davis, despite her oaths, is to be admired for following her religious morals?

Some mix of the above?

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #134 on: September 04, 2015, 08:10:03 PM »

Exactly. I agree with the hypothetical Quaker's values, but he or she still has the duty to uphold the law.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

Not if I had taken a vow TO UPHOLD THE LAW.

I find that response truly depressing.

Oh man, I find this kind of depressing too. And it's odd, I usually agree with Kris. Often, I have decided not to bother commenting on a thread when I see she has already posted something as trenchant and brilliantly insightful as what I was going to.

So, you're a sheriff in the North and you'd return captured slaves because that's the law? You're a police officer so you wouldn't join the French Resistance?

Or maybe you're just saying that in the current climate, fanfare surrounding one's resignation is the route more likely to be effective.

No. I would like to believe I would look deeply at whether the law is in favor of preserving rights, or taking away those rights. And if I saw that it was in favor of taking away rights, I would resign and join the resistance.

But what about if you thought you could do more from an inside position is the question. At some point if horrors are taking place, wouldn't the moral imperative to prevent those horrors to the best of your abilities through whatever means possible outweigh the compromise of your vow to uphold the law? And in some circumstances even resigning is going to bring down so much heat on your head that you're going to be too conspicuous to do anything, so you're essentially abdicating.

Obviously we all think this is silly in Kim Davis' case because, even if you're against gay marriage, people getting married isn't an atrocity and doesn't even have direct victims, so it's an abstract question. And, related to your distinction about preserving or taking away rights I'm not questioning your ability to choose between right and wrong, it can be any situation you perceive as intolerably wrong.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 08:12:31 PM by sheepstache »

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #135 on: September 04, 2015, 08:10:24 PM »
This whole debate is disingenuous. She can't claim moral high ground for a position that removes rights, and comparing her to MLK, Jr., of all people, is distorting what he and the entire civil rights movement stood and stands for.

I made the argument in the way that I did, because from her perspectives, she believes that her moral convictions are being violated; for which (even as an employee of the government) she has a right to freedom of religion.  So just as MLK, Jr. felt that he had rights being violated as a black man, Davis feels convicted in a similar manner.  You don't have to agree with her position on her religious interpretations, (and honestly, I don't) but I do agree that she has the right to assert her religious convictions to whatever degree of suffering she is willing to endure.

protostache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 903
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #136 on: September 04, 2015, 08:16:02 PM »
This whole debate is disingenuous. She can't claim moral high ground for a position that removes rights, and comparing her to MLK, Jr., of all people, is distorting what he and the entire civil rights movement stood and stands for.

I made the argument in the way that I did, because from her perspectives, she believes that her moral convictions are being violated; for which (even as an employee of the government) she has a right to freedom of religion.  So just as MLK, Jr. felt that he had rights being violated as a black man, Davis feels convicted in a similar manner.  You don't have to agree with her position on her religious interpretations, (and honestly, I don't) but I do agree that she has the right to assert her religious convictions to whatever degree of suffering she is willing to endure.

I don't understand this argument. She is an agent of the state acting oh behalf of the state. The first amendment protects the people from limits on the free expression of their religious practices by the state. As a private citizen she can express her religious views all day long as much as she wants. When acting as an agent of the state she has no such right. And the comparison to MLK, Jr. still makes no sense because he never acted on behalf of the state, but always as a private citizen.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 08:17:48 PM by protostache »

Metta

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 773
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #137 on: September 04, 2015, 08:19:38 PM »
So she can simply wait this out, then go back to her job, and continue to refuse to issue marriage licenses or allow her clerks to do so forever? How does this play out in reality if people know that they can flout the law without much recourse if they are willing to wait out a period of time in jail? Are there examples of this?

There are indeed examples of people "waiting out" civil contempt sanctions. The case I cited, In re Lawrence, supra, is one such example. Stephan Jay Lawrence was incarcerated for civil contempt for refusing to turn over assets that he was keeping offshore in some shady asset protection vehicle. After approximately six years in jail, he was able to persuade the judge that he would never turn over the moneys, so he was released. So yes, waiting is one way to possibly beat civil contempt, but you might have to wait for a long time (although maybe not; there's no specific rule governing this).

If Davis ultimately cannot be swayed through civil contempt, other approaches will need to be used. One approach might be criminal contempt, which is a crime (unlike civil contempt), so it requires a formal trial and other proceedings usually used in criminal cases. Davis might also have committed state crimes that local prosecutors could pursue against her. It's hard to say what would be used next if she does not relent. However, for any criminal case involving a jail sentence of more than six months (including a criminal contempt case), Davis is entitled to trial by jury, which could make it difficult to secure a conviction if the local community supports her. (Juries are not required for civil contempt because the person is not being punished, merely coerced.)

Fascinating! Thank you so much for the information.

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #138 on: September 04, 2015, 08:20:52 PM »

Oh man, I find this kind of depressing too. And it's odd, I usually agree with Kris.

So which part is worse, discovering that Kris is flawed and has failed to live up to your expectations? 

Well I may be a bit egotistical but I don't believe that everyone who disagrees with me is flawed. Not necessarily.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7107
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #139 on: September 04, 2015, 08:59:17 PM »
So just as MLK, Jr. felt that he had rights being violated as a black man, Davis feels convicted in a similar manner.

This is certainly a corollary of Godwin's Law.

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #140 on: September 04, 2015, 08:59:52 PM »
Hey ho, MoonShadow, I've got a question. Can you please clarify the backbone of your argument? I'm having trouble understanding, and I don't think real discussion can happen without understanding the fundamentals of the debate.

Sure, but can you let me know which debate you are asking about?  The original topic, or one of the side topics that came later?

The original argument, I suppose. I've re-read all your applicable posts, and I've found a few themes:
  • Davis shouldn’t go to jail because her refusal to issue licenses was motivated by religious beliefs;
  • Davis shouldn’t go to jail because her refusal did not harm anyone
  • No rights were violated because of the close proximity of more agreeable clerk’s offices;
  • We are being manipulated. Davis is a pawn (victim/martyr) of conservative christians. They cozied up to her position, and are thrilled at the publicity of the contempt conviction (is it a conviction? A ruling? cathy?) and jail time. The case will end up back at the Supreme Court, and the only ones who will benefit are the lawyers
  • The world needs folks who will refuse work when their personal morals are violated. Davis' oaths do not matter as she was following her conscious.



Well, I could contest you summaries above, because they lose nuance, but they are close enough; so I will leave it be.

Quote
Is your argument that Davis should be quietly fired and ignored to avoid the political theater?

Or that she should not have been found in contempt because she represents only one clerks office in KY?

Or that Davis, despite her oaths, is to be admired for following her religious morals?

Some mix of the above?
tl/dr this is a complex case, for which I may be too close to present a coherent argument.

Some mix.  As a libertarian, I can respect her conviction and willingness to accept the consequences of civil disobedience, even while I do not agree with the particulars of her stance.  However, the actual situation is a bit of a mixed bag, because I can already see that there can be no real justice in it, no matter what happens or who wins.  She gave the judge no choice but contempt, because he can't let her just win, and a fine would have been a trivial thing for her, and she would have just continued.  On the flip side, I view her as a victim of the agendas of others as well.  The largest town in the county (if I'm thinking of the correct one) is Morehead, which is basicly the campus of Morehead University, a Wal-Mart and a McDonald's next to an interstate exit.  It's not entirely out of the question that the clerk's office was inside a post office.  Those protestors came to them, and I would doubt that more than one couple demanding marriage licenses actually lived in the county.  As I mentioned, the county clerk is basicly the head notary public in service of the state for the county.  Obviously, one county clerk can stir up trouble, but for most things a clerk does on behalf of the state, there is a work-around for troublesome personalities.  So the protestors could have just let it go, and traveled to another county for the license, or to Frankfort if need be; and let her do her protest in quiet until her term was up.  She isn't even the only county clerk to refuse to issue licenses, she just turned out to be the only one with a couple willing to confront her about it.  There has been at least one other that was quoted as stating he wouldn't issue marriage licenses in light of the SCOTUS ruling, but also pointed out that he actually hasn't had anyone come into the office asking for one.  If there were any same-sex couples in his county, they apparently didn't consider it worth the confrontation considering their real options.  I guess, on net, I just feel it didn't have to happen at all; and that all sides really wanted this fight.  Why couldn't it have just been in Indiana, where everyone already knows they hate gay people?

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #141 on: September 04, 2015, 09:04:40 PM »
This whole debate is disingenuous. She can't claim moral high ground for a position that removes rights, and comparing her to MLK, Jr., of all people, is distorting what he and the entire civil rights movement stood and stands for.

I made the argument in the way that I did, because from her perspectives, she believes that her moral convictions are being violated; for which (even as an employee of the government) she has a right to freedom of religion.  So just as MLK, Jr. felt that he had rights being violated as a black man, Davis feels convicted in a similar manner.  You don't have to agree with her position on her religious interpretations, (and honestly, I don't) but I do agree that she has the right to assert her religious convictions to whatever degree of suffering she is willing to endure.

I don't understand this argument. She is an agent of the state acting oh behalf of the state. The first amendment protects the people from limits on the free expression of their religious practices by the state. As a private citizen she can express her religious views all day long as much as she wants. When acting as an agent of the state she has no such right. And the comparison to MLK, Jr. still makes no sense because he never acted on behalf of the state, but always as a private citizen.

The libertarian view is that every person is a person first and foremost.  The individual is, quite literally, the smallest minority group.  The nature and power of their employer should be immaterial to their free exercise of rights.  Can the people who elected her fire her?  Sure, it's called an election, and I'm sure one will be coming along soon enough.

MoonShadow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2542
  • Location: Louisville, Ky.
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #142 on: September 04, 2015, 09:05:51 PM »


Well I may be a bit egotistical but I don't believe that everyone who disagrees with me is flawed. Not necessarily.

I assume that everyone I meet is flawed, particularly those with whom I agree.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3047
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #143 on: September 04, 2015, 09:12:08 PM »
This whole debate is disingenuous. She can't claim moral high ground for a position that removes rights, and comparing her to MLK, Jr., of all people, is distorting what he and the entire civil rights movement stood and stands for.

I made the argument in the way that I did, because from her perspectives, she believes that her moral convictions are being violated; for which (even as an employee of the government) she has a right to freedom of religion.  So just as MLK, Jr. felt that he had rights being violated as a black man, Davis feels convicted in a similar manner.  You don't have to agree with her position on her religious interpretations, (and honestly, I don't) but I do agree that she has the right to assert her religious convictions to whatever degree of suffering she is willing to endure.

I don't understand this argument. She is an agent of the state acting oh behalf of the state. The first amendment protects the people from limits on the free expression of their religious practices by the state. As a private citizen she can express her religious views all day long as much as she wants. When acting as an agent of the state she has no such right. And the comparison to MLK, Jr. still makes no sense because he never acted on behalf of the state, but always as a private citizen.

The libertarian view is that every person is a person first and foremost.  The individual is, quite literally, the smallest minority group.  The nature and power of their employer should be immaterial to their free exercise of rights.  Can the people who elected her fire her?  Sure, it's called an election, and I'm sure one will be coming along soon enough.

Indeed, its a mess.  Part of the problem is that the internet, and social media in particular, is collapsing traditional physical barriers to these types of cultural differences.  In the old days I think it would have played out exactly as you state - some minor clerk being a shit-head with very little publicity or fanfare, and very likely the people physically around her probably agreeing with her.  Sucks if you are gay and want to get married, but such is life.  But nowadays people from the coasts or more metropolitan areas get a close up view of this behavior and are appalled and start making noise.  And thus you have the current situation.

For the record I am one of those that are appalled by her. 

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #144 on: September 04, 2015, 09:43:57 PM »
I consider myself a liberal, but more and more I'm disturbed by the level of discourse descended to by people on the left and this is the latest example. Can you imagine the outrage if a controversial liberal female were called bitch and cunt or had her past sexual history dragged out into the open or jokes made about her appearance which I see on comments all over this issue.

Moral equivalency fail. Two wrongs don't make a right, and bad behavior on the part of someone making an argument does not automatically invalidate their argument.

And I don't like the arguments that slam her down for acting on her convictions. You can argue that she's doing it for publicity, not convictions, yes, or that her convictions are wrong, yes, but I don't get the sudden support for just mindlessly doing what your employer tells you.

1. Her convictions are wrong.

2. She has a real easy remedy to avoid "just mindlessly doing what your employer tells you," and that is to resign.

There was a meme going around saying that supporting Kim Davis was like supporting a quaker clerk who wouldn't issue gun permits because it was against their religion. And yet somehow I'm sure that you could find plenty of support among my acquaintances for such a quaker.  History doesn't condemn those who helped the Underground Railroad in violation of the Fugitive Slave Law. Or people who dodged the draft for moral reasons.

The difference is that Quakers and draft dodgers don't insist on getting paid for their [refusal to perform] military service and refuse to let somebody else take their place.

Well, given that apparently, Hillary Clinton is not the only elected representative who has ever used a private email account, I'm not sure she is the only one who should be pilloried.

Clinton had top secret/classified emails on a private server that were likely hacked by America's enemies. That's not only a severe breach of security, but may also have led to the death of Americans.

But as I pointed out earlier...the left have an amazing capacity to overlook or minimize instances like this, and the lack of outrage from the left is quite telling.

Clinton is a manipulative asshat who has no business running the country, who should immediately abandon her candidacy, and who should (after being convicted at trial) go to prison for running that private email server.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it was hacked or not; that's irrelevant. What makes it wrong and morally repugnant is that it circumvents FOIA. That kind of secrecy is antithetical to democracy.

Is that so?  Is there no law that, if you were in a position to resist and found offensive to your values, that you would choose to actually resist rather than resign?  Think this through, Kris, because I can think of a whole lot of laws that should have been resisted in their own time.

The point you're missing is that this law ain't one of them!

“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

[and other quotes]

The key word there is "unjust," which is why King's argument doesn't apply here.

This whole debate is disingenuous. She can't claim moral high ground for a position that removes rights, and comparing her to MLK, Jr., of all people, is distorting what he and the entire civil rights movement stood and stands for.

I made the argument in the way that I did, because from her perspectives, she believes that her moral convictions are being violated; for which (even as an employee of the government) she has a right to freedom of religion.  So just as MLK, Jr. felt that he had rights being violated as a black man, Davis feels convicted in a similar manner.  You don't have to agree with her position on her religious interpretations, (and honestly, I don't) but I do agree that she has the right to assert her religious convictions to whatever degree of suffering she is willing to endure.

There's a difference between standing up for your beliefs and simple stupid stubbornness. First of all, it's hard to argue that it's genuine belief given how hypocritical we already know she is.

Second, again, the important principle here is that her rights end where others' rights begin. She deserves to be jailed for this for the same reason why someone who commits religious sacrificial murder deserves to be in prison, despite religious beliefs being protected. Even if here beliefs were genuine, it still wouldn't give her the right to deprive others of the ability to exercise their own rights.

Sailor Sam

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5732
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #145 on: September 04, 2015, 09:57:26 PM »
Thank you for clarifying. I did my best to interpret your original argument, but as I said I was struggling to follow. Apologies if I lost some nuance, it wasn't intentional.

I have some sympathy for your stance that the pageantry wasn't strictly necessary. I can also accept your hypothesis that the mens' motivation for choosing Davis' office could have been driven by more than a singular desire to be lawfully wed. I'll even support her right to say 'I find you personally deplorable,' as she handed the gentlemen their license. But the moment she actually refused to issue the license she violated her oath, and that oath is the crux of the matter. 

I too have sworn an oath, though mine is to the US government. Part of my oath was to follow the lawful orders or my superiors. If I were to refuse these orders for any reason, including moral grounds, I would be charged under the punitive articles of the UCMJ. My oath removes my existence as the smallest minority group. Her oath has the same negating effect on her individuality while she is working. A county clerk is and should be an automaton of the county, and by extension the state.*

So my 2 cents is that she done fucked up bad, and should be in jail.

*I'll preemptively admit there are limits to my stance. German soldiers shoving jew into train cars is the obvious example. While important and pivotal, gay marriage isn't showers with no drains.

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2015, 10:00:13 PM »
I consider myself a liberal, but more and more I'm disturbed by the level of discourse descended to by people on the left and this is the latest example. Can you imagine the outrage if a controversial liberal female were called bitch and cunt or had her past sexual history dragged out into the open or jokes made about her appearance which I see on comments all over this issue.

Moral equivalency fail. Two wrongs don't make a right, and bad behavior on the part of someone making an argument does not automatically invalidate their argument.
I didn't say that it did. I specifically criticized the level of discourse.

And I don't like the arguments that slam her down for acting on her convictions. You can argue that she's doing it for publicity, not convictions, yes, or that her convictions are wrong, yes, but I don't get the sudden support for just mindlessly doing what your employer tells you.

1. Her convictions are wrong.
That's fine. The whole point of my post was that that's valid grounds for argument.

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2015, 10:07:28 PM »
I consider myself a liberal, but more and more I'm disturbed by the level of discourse descended to by people on the left and this is the latest example. Can you imagine the outrage if a controversial liberal female were called bitch and cunt or had her past sexual history dragged out into the open or jokes made about her appearance which I see on comments all over this issue.

Moral equivalency fail. Two wrongs don't make a right, and bad behavior on the part of someone making an argument does not automatically invalidate their argument.

I didn't say that it did. I specifically criticized the level of discourse.

Whoops, sorry.

johnny847

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3188
    • My Blog
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2015, 10:13:46 PM »
“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

[and other quotes]

The key word there is "unjust," which is why King's argument doesn't apply here.

Jack, I also agree that the legalization of gay marriage is just.

But step back from this clerk issue for a second. Suppose a law was passed saying you cannot own a dog as a pet.
And someone thought it was unjust. Whether a law is just or not is not some incontrovertible fact. We can't simultaneously agree with MLK and then say "no, you don't have a moral responsibility to disobey this law and go out and get a dog as a pet. Your opinion is wrong. You can't own a dog because it is a just law."

Bringing this back to the clerk issue, while we can't say you don't have a moral responsibility to disobey this law because this law is just, we can still certainly hold her in contempt of court for not doing her job. Which is exactly what is happening.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3770
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2015, 10:22:29 PM »
"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. "
― Henry David Thoreau

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I wonder what interest the government has in restricting marriage rights.  You can't be the small government party and demand this sort of meddling.