Post by: norabird on October 11, 2017, 02:41:21 PM
It's mostly better now compared to how it was early in the relationship--I was coming off some serious betrayal and had major trust issues/some trauma). Anytime the monogamish question comes up I can go pretty haywire again, though; I often am the one raising it, FWIW, because I feel like I should be able to discuss it.
So, what are the appropriate ways to control one's feelings while still trying to express them but not using them as manipulation? How to handle knowing you are one part of a partner's life, but that other parts are important (sometimes equally or even more so) too? I know that's what is healthy, but it still is hard for me to cope with sometimes! And that's even though I'm treated very well, don't have cause to feel neglected, get special attention, etc. I can't always tell if this is my personality, or if it's the aftereffect of having been majorly lied to by a previous BF, or some mix of the two.
Does this impact your relationship or has it in the past and what are your ground rules for yourself and your partner?
Post by: human on October 11, 2017, 04:23:43 PM
I've been in the stituation where I've been infatuated with someone I was dating and they didn't to be exclusive, in the end I scared them off. Its hard to be in a seren state of mind when someone you are head over heels for is dating other people. However when I'm with someone the jealousy and uncertainty practically disappears.
If this is supposed to be a committed relationship and you have feelings of mistrust and jealousy you may want to get counselling. If it's a new relàtionship that is not yet settled just chill the fuck out (because freaking out never helped me).
Post by: norabird on October 11, 2017, 04:36:44 PM
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Post by: Kris on October 11, 2017, 04:47:41 PM
It's three years old but chilling out is always good. I think I probably set up my question wrong--am just wondering, do other people struggle with resenting or being jealous of partners? How does that get dealt with? But counseling is always A+
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There is a difference between feeling jealous or insecure when one's partner gives one cause to feel that way, and feeling jealous or insecure despite one's partner giving them no reason to feel that way. It's hard to answer this question without knowing which camp this relationship falls into.
Post by: 2Cent on October 12, 2017, 07:58:42 AM
Post by: simonsez on October 12, 2017, 08:33:04 AM
It strikes me as odd that someone who has been burned before by relationships and is somewhat insecure/jealous would consider any type of relationship that isn't 100% monogamy. Are you doing it because this is who you are or because you really like the person you are with and would begrudgingly accept something not ideal if it means you get to stay with a particular person? If two people are not at similar points on the "mono/poly continuum", one person will inevitably be doing things with other people (innocent or not) that could make the other person wonder/sad/angry/jealous/insecure. This is true for every relationship but seems it could be exacerbated in monogamish settings to a point it could be detrimental. Bringing up conversations about this topic is incredibly important - if you are being dismissed or afraid to bring this up, these are major red flags.
Post by: human on October 12, 2017, 04:41:05 PM
It's three years old but chilling out is always good. I think I probably set up my question wrong--am just wondering, do other people struggle with resenting or being jealous of partners? How does that get dealt with? But counseling is always A+
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3 years is a while, I really thought it might be a new thing. After that length of time I'm usually desperate for my SO to get out of my hair and spend time out with friends while I get some alone time. I assume at this point you know you're SO's friends pretty well and unless they have a history of bad behaviour you'll have to figure out a way to let go.
Post by: Cali Nonya on October 13, 2017, 09:43:20 AM
Posting to come back to this in a bit.
Post by: zinnie on October 13, 2017, 10:35:09 AM
It's three years old but chilling out is always good. I think I probably set up my question wrong--am just wondering, do other people struggle with resenting or being jealous of partners? How does that get dealt with? But counseling is always A+
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There is a difference between feeling jealous or insecure when one's partner gives one cause to feel that way, and feeling jealous or insecure despite one's partner giving them no reason to feel that way. It's hard to answer this question without knowing which camp this relationship falls into.
This. Also, realize that you are responsible for your own behavior, and happiness. If you think what your partner is doing is reasonable, maybe try working on yourself instead of the relationship. Are you happy with your own social life? Are you doing an equal number of activities you enjoy without your partner? I know when I've felt jealous it was sometimes because I wanted more of those things for myself too. But, it isn't/shouldn't be on my partner to fix that. I'd try to figure out where the jealousy is coming from before trying to make the other person change or feel like they are doing something wrong. But, totally reasonable to talk about monogamy!
Post by: rockstache on October 13, 2017, 11:13:12 AM
I think it is really personal for everyone, but for me there was a feeling that I had been cheated on, I had survived it, and I could do it again if I had to. My husband is also way more honest and open than any previous partners had been, so it is much more mature/adult relationship and that helps.
Post by: norabird on October 13, 2017, 11:23:59 AM
Post by: elaine amj on October 13, 2017, 03:09:40 PM
There is a difference between feeling jealous or insecure when one's partner gives one cause to feel that way, and feeling jealous or insecure despite one's partner giving them no reason to feel that way. It's hard to answer this question without knowing which camp this relationship falls into.
Have you thought about couples counselling? That way you have a neutral third party to point out if you are being irrational or if your BF does have some stepping up to do? He might also appreciate some neutral support when you're not being reasonable.
My own story. I didn't have to deal with jealousy, but I felt a little insecure. Sometime after a painful divorce, my mother said something to teenage me that I wish she never did: "Your father promised me the moon and the stars...back then". It really, really struck me deep to the core that even if someone promises forever, that they could just be caught up in the romance of it all. I had a REALLY hard time believing that DH would be with me forever. DH was patient with me and after about a year - I had studied him enough to know that his core character traits was steadfastness and loyalty. This was a man I could trust with the rest of my life. I was blessed to find him really young and snagged him up quickly :)
Post by: norabird on October 13, 2017, 05:30:08 PM
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Post by: J Boogie on October 16, 2017, 12:14:43 PM
It sounds like you might be interested in a relationship that has more quality time and togetherness, and your partner might view an ideal relationship differently. He might be interested in spending more time doing his own thing with his own group of friends. If that's the case, you might be better off with someone who more naturally met your emotional needs. (We all have emotional needs - I don't say this in a pejorative way).
However, it's also possible that you simply continue to struggle with feelings of jealousy/abandonment, and genuinely believe those feelings to be misguided. But honestly, some people are just wired differently and have different needs. I'm all for being the best person you can be, but sometimes you can really save yourself the headache if you accept yourself as you are and find someone whose nature is to accept you and give you the kind of love you need to feel happy and secure.
I hesitate to give advice knowing so little about you and your relationship - for all I know you could have major issues and wouldn't be happy with anyone until you sort yourself out, or you are perfectly fine and just want more togetherness than your BF does. You could ask the wisest person you know that knows you very well, and they could tell you where you land on that spectrum.
Post by: Sibley on October 16, 2017, 12:46:07 PM
https://captainawkward.com/2017/09/27/1026-obsessed-with-my-girlfriends-sexual-past/
Post by: norabird on October 16, 2017, 01:39:13 PM
I ended up sharing this thread with him over the weekend because we had a bit of a confrontation and it felt like a good time to try and put more of the cards on the table (not that he doesn't know basically all of it anyway, and mostly for me vice versa). We actually spend tons of time together and I get included in pretty much everything, with the bonus that I get to do lots of solo stuff of my own and he gets to do the same when needed--usually a bit less than me, we have different needs for activity. Anyway, we do need to figure out how to navigate my feeling secure enough and not being entirely wholly always totally monogamous, which there are templates for and which part of me is on board with, another part of me is just freaked out. I might be anyway but all my baggage makes it hard. I know there are ways it's feasible though. Also sorry for all the oversharing ack!!
Post by: J Boogie on October 16, 2017, 01:53:48 PM
I think that's the problem right there. It's not you, it's the lack of insistence on monogamy. If you want to feel confident and secure in your relationship, make sure it's a monogamous relationship. Yes, templates exist for people who decide polyamory is for them. I have no idea whether or not these people are happy. But I and everyone I know that has had happiness in a relationship has found it in a monogamous relationship.
Post by: norabird on October 16, 2017, 01:58:38 PM
Post by: MaggieD on October 16, 2017, 07:05:08 PM
Just because something other than monogamy works for some people you know, that doesn’t mean that is the right option for you. I may be misreading, but are you sure you’re not settling for that 3rd option despite your desire to be monogamous? If you want monogamy, that is a perfectly valid need in a relationship. Please don’t sell your needs short. Let me be clear I’m not discounting that some other sort of relationship works for some other people.
I don’t have jealousy relationship issues, but is part of it you not knowing things are happening? Communication about what he’s up to or plans he has seems reasonable to evaluate - can it be improved so you stay in the loop?
Good luck!
Post by: Dicey on October 17, 2017, 12:55:32 AM
I was single for a very long time. I dated a lot of mental (that's a funny autofill for "men", so stet), because I always wanted to get married and have a family. I sold men's clothes at Nordstrom in two different large cities for a decade, so yes, a LOT. I literally got to meet a new batch of potential mates every day. Crazy.
I was also hurt excruciatingly deeply when the man I adored and dated for four years, including while I had cancer, chose to go back to his high school sweetheart during a lull in our relationship. Searing pain that I can bring up in an instant, thirty years later. To his credit, he did marry her and they're still together, AFAIK.
I have also had relationships end when it became apparent that there was cheating going on. I have always been a monogamous type; it's the only thing that feels comfortable to me. Trying to date multiple people was just too emotionally confusing.
There were a few relationships where I felt considerably more insecure and jealous. These feelings suck, but may provide a useful purpose. During my dating
When I finally met my mate, I was long in the tooth and well past the possibility of children. I was amazed that I DID know in my gut that my search was finally over. We dated for a couple of months. He shocked me by proposing and we eloped less than six weeks later. Last week was our fifth anniversary. (I will add that I'd known him from a distance for over a decade, so not as scary as that sounds. I knew he was a good person and solid gold mate material.)
He is completely trustworthy. I am secure in his love and steadfast faith in me and I in him. It's as amazing as I always, intuitively, knew it would be. I believe all those times I suffered through insecurity and jealousy, it was my gut instinctively understanding that the person in question was not The One, for whatever reason, no matter how "right" they seemed.
Now, I am so glad those evil twins kept me from ignoring my screaming subconscious, painful as it was to experience, and much as I hated myself for having these feelings/behavior.
In conclusion, may I gently suggest you consider listening to these feelings instead of berating yourself for feeling them? They could be trying to tell you something really important.
Edited for fractured syntax.
Post by: norabird on October 17, 2017, 07:09:06 AM
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Post by: Tris Prior on October 17, 2017, 07:55:00 AM
I mean, why do YOU want it? How will it serve YOUR needs? Do you think non-monogamy will make YOU happy? If so, how?
You don't have to answer here; just something to think about.
What I'm hearing - and I could be WAY off base, is that your partner wants non-monogamy and you are trying very hard to find a way to be OK with it. That it may or may not serve YOUR needs, but that you're looking at it because you want your partner to be happy (which is TOTALLY valid!) and give him freedom that he wants.
It's OK to want to be monogamous, if that's how you're wired.
Post by: Kris on October 17, 2017, 08:28:06 AM
OK, so, I'm going to ask you: Why do you want a non-monogamous relationship?
I mean, why do YOU want it? How will it serve YOUR needs? Do you think non-monogamy will make YOU happy? If so, how?
You don't have to answer here; just something to think about.
What I'm hearing - and I could be WAY off base, is that your partner wants non-monogamy and you are trying very hard to find a way to be OK with it. That it may or may not serve YOUR needs, but that you're looking at it because you want your partner to be happy (which is TOTALLY valid!) and give him freedom that he wants.
It's OK to want to be monogamous, if that's how you're wired.
This is kind of how I'm reading it, too.
One of the hardest things about searching for a partner in life is looking non-compatibility in the face and recognizing it for what it is.
Most of us... or perhaps all of us... have at some point been with someone we really wanted it to work out with, and have twisted ourselves into pretzels to ignore/overcome/downplay a major, fundamental incompatibility with the other person. Tried to change, tried to make the other person change, tried to tell ourselves it's not that big a deal, tried to tell ourselves everything is awesome except for that one thing...
Nora, I don't know you, so of course I'm not in a position to tell you whether you have a deep, fundamental incompatibility at the heart of your relationship.
But what I will say is this: When two people have a deep, fundamental incompatibility at the heart of their relationship, there are only two outcomes: one, the relationship ends, and both people are better off for it. Or two, the relationship persists, and at least one of the people in it commits to existing with a deep, gnawing unhappiness as a chronic condition of their decision.
At fifty years old and some change, I have had enough relationships to know in my guts that the latter situation is not worth it. Really, really not worth it.
Post by: norabird on October 17, 2017, 08:30:26 AM
Post by: Kris on October 17, 2017, 09:04:20 AM
The thing is that what I actually most want is to be free of being totally afraid of non monogamy. Like, I know I could be okay with it (under terms that I get to pick!) if my activated terror brain could calm down. Which I think it is maybe going to be able to do! Or, I'm wrong, and it won't be for me, and we'll go from there.
Can I ask you one question about this?
In an ideal world, with an ideal partner: would you rather be free of being totally afraid of non-monogamy?
Or would you rather be in a relationship that is happily monogamous?
Post by: J Boogie on October 17, 2017, 09:31:28 AM
The thing is that what I actually most want is to be free of being totally afraid of non monogamy. Like, I know I could be okay with it (under terms that I get to pick!) if my activated terror brain could calm down. Which I think it is maybe going to be able to do! Or, I'm wrong, and it won't be for me, and we'll go from there.
Nora, thanks for being so open about where you're at.
I believe that your activated terror brain is properly calibrated and is sending you the right signals for you to follow to happiness. I think this fear of non monogamy you have is healthy. After learning a little more about you, I feel comfortable saying that this situation is NOT one in which you need to sort yourself out. You're fine. You can trust your feelings, they are valid and they are guiding you in the right direction.
The best advice I can give you is that I believe you will be happiest with someone who is happy to commit to an exclusive relationship with you.
Post by: norabird on October 17, 2017, 09:44:23 AM
I think the fact is, desire is scary, because we don't totally control it. And monogamy is a way of trying to control it that prioritizes the stability/safety of the relationship which I totally get! But there are totally ways of being monogamish that still prioritize the same. Like...it's really just sex. And it can even be something that happens together! And why would I hold back from new experiences just because there is programming that the right way is to keep everything just between two people? The fact is, there are totally things in being a little more open that intrigue me, it's just the fear gets in the way. Because the unknown is alarming! but if it becomes less unknown, it probably becomes less scary, or at least I can know for certain what I think, rather than having a knee jerk reaction control me.
Post by: PoutineLover on October 17, 2017, 10:02:46 AM
Would you both have sex with other people?
Would they be only one night stands, or ongoing?
Would it be threesomes, or separate?
Would you want to know about it, all the details, some or none?
How would you handle testing, protection, risk?
Are you only considering opening up the relationship because he wants to, or because you both do?
Since it seems like you feel jealousy even about friends of the opposite sex, I'm not sure that opening the relationship will help you feel more secure. You can't just wish away your feelings, but you can choose to act or not act on them. It might be an issue of incompatibility if your partner needs more openness and you need more monogamy, and that might mean that this relationship can't be successful. Compromise can be good, but not if it makes one partner feel like they had to do too much compromising to feel comfortable.
Post by: Cali Nonya on October 17, 2017, 10:03:00 AM
Post by: norabird on October 17, 2017, 10:05:48 AM
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 17, 2017, 10:14:06 AM
Like...it's really just sex.
No.
Often, an early/initial activity is sex. Often, the sex triggers a bond, one called falling in love. That's where things often get messy for people who do poly. If you go in with the idea that it's "just sex", and ignore the part that sex triggers an intense bond between many people, you're in for pain. I've seen couples in polyamourous or open relationships have "just sex" (somewhat successfully) with others for anywhere from one week to ten years...and then the magical, surprise, additional element formed and that shook things up hard.
So, sex is sex, yes...but sex often triggers something much bigger, and often unexpectedly. i.e., Neither primary partner sees it coming; neither can predict with which sex partner something wild and deep and intense is going to surprise everyone.
There is also the additional element that -for the person who prefers monogamy and is agreeing to poly for secondary reasons- their partner having sex with others often creates a block, which affects their primary relationship.
Post by: Cwadda on October 17, 2017, 10:26:22 AM
Okay, this response is based on my personal experience. I'm going to tell you a bit about my life, and maybe there will be something useful for you. I hope so, because I am not in any way telling you what you should do, mkay? I've never really talked about this before, so sorry if I'm all over the place as I climb out on this limb to share.
I was single for a very long time. I dated a lot of mental (that's a funny autofill for "men", so stet), because I always wanted to get married and have a family. I sold men's clothes at Nordstrom in two different large cities for a decade, so yes, a LOT. I literally got to meet a new batch of potential mates every day. Crazy.
I was also hurt excruciatingly deeply when the man I adored and dated for four years, including while I had cancer, chose to go back to his high school sweetheart during a lull in our relationship. Searing pain that I can bring up in an instant, thirty years later. To his credit, he did marry her and they're still together, AFAIK.
I have also had relationships end when it became apparent that there was cheating going on. I have always been a monogamous type; it's the only thing that feels comfortable to me. Trying to date multiple people was just too emotionally confusing.
There were a few relationships where I felt considerably more insecure and jealous. These feelings suck, but may provide a useful purpose. During my datingyearsdecades, I always knew I wanted to feel a certain way when I married. I was positive I'd know it when I felt it. But over and over, nothing stuck. I did get close. At one point, I even had a ring and a date and a dress, but I called it quits when he lost his shit over something inconsequential.
When I finally met my mate, I was long in the tooth and well past the possibility of children. I was amazed that I DID know in my gut that my search was finally over. We dated for a couple of months. He shocked me by proposing and we eloped less than six weeks later. Last week was our fifth anniversary. (I will add that I'd known him from a distance for over a decade, so not as scary as that sounds. I knew he was a good person and solid gold mate material.)
He is completely trustworthy. I am secure in his love and steadfast faith in me and I in him. It's as amazing as I always, intuitively, knew it would be. I believe all those times I suffered through insecurity and jealousy, it was my gut instinctively understanding that the person in question was not The One, for whatever reason, no matter how "right" they seemed.
Now, I am so glad those evil twins kept me from ignoring my screaming subconscious, painful as it was to experience, and much as I hated myself for having these feelings/behavior.
In conclusion, may I gently suggest you consider listening to these feelings instead of berating yourself for feeling them? They could be trying to tell you something really important.
Edited for fractured syntax.
Hey Dicey, great story, thanks for sharing!
For the OP, I want to add one bit of advice: Have you ever considered therapy? It can be extremely helpful for working out those deep feelings. In most cases it's also covered by your health insurance provider. IMO, it's one of the best ways you can achieve a positive mental state and happy life. A terrific investment!
Post by: limeandpepper on October 17, 2017, 10:28:07 AM
It sounds like you want to explore other things because 1) your partner is interested, 2) you want to prove to yourself that you can be not possessive and controlling?
It's almost as if you're trying to deal with your trust issues by pushing yourself well beyond what is required, when you're not even comfortable with the more basic stuff yet.
So I want to say that it is possible to be in a healthy monogamous relationship with lots of space and freedom. Where the reason why you're not hooking up with other people isn't because your partner doesn't allow you to, but because you choose not to.
And what I am also saying is:
Things like resenting social engagements that I wasn't aware of or don't involve me, struggling with opposite gender friends, that sort of stuff. I pretty much never say "you can't do this" or actually try to be controlling, but the feeling of resenting other friends or activities or being jealous of other interests/aspects to a person's life is still kind of terrible, on both sides.
^Sort this out first before attempting a venture beyond monogamy, because I don't see how you can handle anything outside of monogamy if you're not even at the point where you're nonchalant with your partner's platonic adventures.
Post by: Tris Prior on October 17, 2017, 10:58:46 AM
As someone who has anxiety (though generally not about the stability of my relationship), one thing I've learned in therapy is that anxiety isn't always irrational. It can be a warning sign that you should listen to, because something in your life doesn't feel right, or a decision doesn't feel right. The trick is determining whether it's a legit warning sign, or just your brain spinning off into old patterns - which, well, is kind of the point of going to therapy, at least for me. :)
Re joon's post: I think some people can separate sex and emotion, and some cannot, and neither is wrong or right. But I think it's a good idea to know which camp you tend to fall into, before opening up your relationship. Knowing that feelings can change once you are actually in this situation.
That being said, most poly people I know have a LOT of boundaries around this sort of thing (like, for example, veto power over a potential outside partner because an emotional bond is forming and that doesn't happen to be in that couple's poly agreement) and are some of the best communicators I know. I think they look at it like, you can't control your feelings, but you can control your actions if those actions are going to hurt your primary partner.
Things like resenting social engagements that I wasn't aware of or don't involve me, struggling with opposite gender friends, that sort of stuff. I pretty much never say "you can't do this" or actually try to be controlling, but the feeling of resenting other friends or activities or being jealous of other interests/aspects to a person's life is still kind of terrible, on both sides.
^Sort this out first before attempting a venture beyond monogamy, because I don't see how you can handle anything outside of monogamy if you're not even at the point where you're nonchalant with your partner's platonic adventures.
^^^^ This! I would suggest working on this first before dealing with the open-relationship question. Can you articulate why you resent it? Feeling like you're not enough to make him happy, feeling like you're not getting your companionship needs met, feeling like "oh sure, HE gets to go off and have fun but I've got this huge to-do list and the house is a mess and there's no groceries..." (ok, that last one is my issue and one I am still working on. :) )
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 17, 2017, 11:05:23 AM
That being said, most poly people I know have a LOT of boundaries around this sort of thing (like, for example, veto power over a potential outside partner because an emotional bond is forming and that doesn't happen to be in that couple's poly agreement) and are some of the best communicators I know. I think they look at it like, you can't control your feelings, but you can control your actions if those actions are going to hurt your primary partner.
In my poly experiences, this has been the ideal, yes... but none of us managed to take action faster than the emotions/bonds cemented. Tough stuff.
However, I also think the poly relationships I've been in and near didn't do any of it "right" (i.e., like the books hold as the ideal). Not because people didn't care, but because none of us had the level of ninja skill that "getting it right" seemed to require.
Post by: JLee on October 17, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Whoa whoa whoa... are you saying the premise of the relationship is not monogamy?
I think that's the problem right there. It's not you, it's the lack of insistence on monogamy. If you want to feel confident and secure in your relationship, make sure it's a monogamous relationship. Yes, templates exist for people who decide polyamory is for them. I have no idea whether or not these people are happy. But I and everyone I know that has had happiness in a relationship has found it in a monogamous relationship.
That's a bold statement that draws a conclusion based on anecdotal evidence. I absolutely agree that nonmonogamy is not for everyone - I've dated several people who ended up meeting someone they wanted to be monogamous with, so we stopped dating and they pursued their monogamous interests (we are still friends). On the topic of anecdotes, I would be miserable in a monogamous relationship.
Please don't reinforce the narrative that a traditional relationship model is the only way to be happy.
Post by: J Boogie on October 17, 2017, 01:02:01 PM
Whoa whoa whoa... are you saying the premise of the relationship is not monogamy?
I think that's the problem right there. It's not you, it's the lack of insistence on monogamy. If you want to feel confident and secure in your relationship, make sure it's a monogamous relationship. Yes, templates exist for people who decide polyamory is for them. I have no idea whether or not these people are happy. But I and everyone I know that has had happiness in a relationship has found it in a monogamous relationship.
That's a bold statement that draws a conclusion based on anecdotal evidence. I absolutely agree that nonmonogamy is not for everyone - I've dated several people who ended up meeting someone they wanted to be monogamous with, so we stopped dating and they pursued their monogamous interests (we are still friends). On the topic of anecdotes, I would be miserable in a monogamous relationship.
Please don't reinforce the narrative that a traditional relationship model is the only way to be happy.
Sounds like OP is miserable in a monogam-ish relationship.
I'm convinced the traditional relationship model is the best way for OP to be happy.
I have no specific desire to trash polyamory and reinforce traditional narratives, just giving advice as best as I can given what the OP has said.
Post by: norabird on October 17, 2017, 01:44:22 PM
Post by: J Boogie on October 17, 2017, 01:51:25 PM
Post by: lifejoy on October 17, 2017, 04:58:31 PM
It's three years old but chilling out is always good. I think I probably set up my question wrong--am just wondering, do other people struggle with resenting or being jealous of partners? How does that get dealt with? But counseling is always A+
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There is a difference between feeling jealous or insecure when one's partner gives one cause to feel that way, and feeling jealous or insecure despite one's partner giving them no reason to feel that way. It's hard to answer this question without knowing which camp this relationship falls into.
This is so true.
I was a really jealous person until I met my husband. It took a lot of practice and good talks but eventually I realized I didn't need to be jealous with him. Some people make it easier :)
This is the short version of my experience. It's not easy, but good for you for seeking answers!
Post by: lifejoy on October 17, 2017, 05:18:41 PM
Nora, is it that you want to be in a mind space where you can consider threesomes or open relationships as positive life-enhancing options instead of scary, life-disrupting options? And you're being down on yourself because thinking about these things in a real way fills you with anxiety?
Well. If that's how you feel, I can totally relate! I think I could enhance my life experiences if I would be ok with threesomes or open relationships. I'm much too... monogamous, jealous, insecure, etc / for any of those options. BUT, I'm ok with that. I show myself the self-love that allows me to know that those options wouldn't work for me, and it's ok
There are things that do work well for me, ways that I spice up my sex and intimacy life, and all within comfortable limits.
Another way to look at it: Drugs or thrill-seeking activities like jumping out of a plane could expand my life experiences, but I'm scared of them, so I don't participate! And it's ok!!
Anyways I wonder if any of this resonates or if I'm way off. Interesting discussion though.
Post by: norabird on October 17, 2017, 05:51:03 PM
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Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 17, 2017, 05:59:38 PM
Another way to look at it: Drugs or thrill-seeking activities like jumping out of a plane could expand my life experiences, but I'm scared of them, so I don't participate! And it's ok!!
For me it's like that, too (except not the fear part). i.e., These fall within the kind of thing I was referring to earlier. I've learned that for me, when it comes to expansive experiences, it's valuable to have more boundaries than I used to. Some outcomes are worth a given activity; some aren't. (And what's worth it will be different for everyone, of course.)
Post by: lifejoy on October 17, 2017, 06:11:01 PM
Totally 100% resonates Joy!
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Cool. Well in that case I think it might be worthwhile to mentally poke your natural boundaries, prod them a little, but to majorly cut yourself some slack if things don't budge.
What would be wrong with that?
Perhaps fantasies and roleplaying could give you the reward without the risk ;)
And if you're trying to be more flexible in your proclivities in order to better suit your bf, I would say... is it worth it? Especially since it's sometimes making you upset to think about? And it sounds like your bf isn't pushing things...
Like you, I'm a fan of Dan Savage. And he has definitely said that a partner pretending to like a kink or lifestyle just to make their partner happy is NOT the same thing as a person finding someone that shares that kink or lifestyle. If you're a round peg trying to fit a square hole, even if you make yourself fit, you're still a round peg. Why not just be like, hey, I'm awesome! Yay round pegs!
I guess what I'm trying to say is: why can't monogamy be the life-benefitting sexy option? And of course, monogamy is scary for some people, so couldn't it be the brave option, as well?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7640261-sex-at-dawn
Have you read this? It pretty much suggests that we are not wired for monogamy. I didn't love that book. Not my jam.
Post by: lifejoy on October 17, 2017, 06:13:19 PM
Linked to you to one of we answers that refers to sex and confidence, so, kind of related.
Post by: norabird on October 17, 2017, 06:55:22 PM
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Post by: lifejoy on October 17, 2017, 07:05:23 PM
Oh I love Polly. And you are fully right on all counts! I think I'm just pushing myself because I feel like someone has to and BF is and will not most likely. But I'll try to do it more gently...
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Why do you feel like someone has to?
Post by: rosaz on October 17, 2017, 09:10:12 PM
I just find it hard to be that confident self that I think I used to be or would like to become again.
This line really stood out to me, so at risk of projecting - not too long ago I came out of a relationship with someone who continually pushed me out of my comfort zone jealousy-wise. The longer this went on the more jealous I got, and I've never been a particularly jealous person before (even confirmed this with third parties). I think maybe knowing that he just wasn't wired to be exclusive in the way I needed turned things that never would have bothered me otherwise (and that had never had bothered me in previous relationships) into reminders of that basic lack of exclusivity. Probably to no one's surprise, it all went to hell in the end, but there sure was a lot more suffering on the way there.
And just my two cents on the whole monogamy/not-quite-monogamy deal - your instinct to get anxious about him having sex with other people springs from the same place as his instinct to want to have sex with other people, that is, the possibility of his getting them pregnant, the repercussions for you being that any children you two might have would thereby get a smaller share of his time, resources, etc. Of course I'm not saying any of this is conscious whatsoever on either of your parts- just that that's why many people have those instincts, because each of them is evolutionarily advantageous to its bearer.
And if its all just evolutionary drives, the your instinct is equally as valid, no more no less, than his. Trying to fight your make-up on this is like trying to operate on the philosophy that you 'should' only need 6 hours of sleep a night if you're a person who really needs 8 (and nothing against poly, etc., just like nothing against those who only need 6 hours. But I'm just built to need my 8). There's no right answer here, just the answer that fits you, and the answer that doesn't. Hairshirts don't get more comfy with time.
Post by: partgypsy on October 18, 2017, 06:23:55 AM
So, if you are double dutch daring yourself to push the envelope, then do it! But once you do it, listen to your gut. Does it feel right, and good, and cool for you? If yes, then proceed. If not, most likely it is not for you, and that's OK too.
ETA: if you think by you and him having outside relationships will "cure" you of being insecure and jealous, a) I don't think that is a good reason and b) I don't think it will "work" the way you think it will, just may make the original relationship less valued or you devalued.
Post by: norabird on October 18, 2017, 09:14:38 AM
Quote
So, if you are double dutch daring yourself to push the envelope, then do it! But once you do it, listen to your gut. Does it feel right, and good, and cool for you? If yes, then proceed. If not, most likely it is not for you, and that's OK too.
This is definitely where I'm leaning. I do think it's important to listen to what my partner has to say about worrying that being strictly monogamous is going to be hard for them/is a concern, and to see if I can overcome some recent programming to be open to it. But it's not like I'm going to evolve light years because of that! Slow and steady is probably the best I can hope for, or slow and then not at all, and then maybe a bit slower.
Post by: katscratch on October 30, 2017, 12:42:40 PM
I've been in both monogamous and non- relationships, and have no preference for one over the other. For myself, a healthy non-monogamous relationship is one where my partner brings his enthusiasm about another back into our relationship, where talking about his being with someone else excites both of us, where we both are inspired and feel more love as a whole as a direct result of the other relationship. Finding joy in the knowledge that my partner is fulfilled in the way that he needs.
For me, anything less than that is a hard no. If it's not an exuberant feeling of HELL YES within you, I would be very, very cautious about continuing this path. The goal of any relationship should never be to "be okay with". I think the question of exploring non-monogamy is also separate from underlying confidence/security issues - but they are intertwined.
To me your posts sound very hesitant and like you're trying to talk yourself into accepting this. That is a huge red flag for me.
My last relationship ended because I just wasn't feeling that my partner was into non-monogamy for the "right" reasons, even though as a couple we were fine. It felt like he was trying it on to make himself happy because he had underlying issues with insecurity in his relationships. Different side of the coin than you, but some similar undertones. I wish I would have listened to my inner voice in the early days and ended things sooner. It wasn't the exclusivity, but our fundamental needs from a partner relationship that weren't meshing.
Good luck to you figuring this out!
Post by: Poundwise on November 01, 2017, 08:46:26 AM
Just skimmed all the responses, but I think that you might want to consider the role that you want relationship maintenance to take in your life.
No love is completely set-it-and-forget-it, but my spouse and I each have passionate missions in life which are made possible by the fact that we have basically settled all our romantic issues. So our relationship is not so much the center of our lives as a solid base. We sometimes feel a flash of jealousy here and there as is natural, but it's more of a feeling of, "you jerk, are you rocking the boat?"
I think this is more possible in a mature monogamous relationship; whereas an open relationship seems like it would require constant rebalancing and maintenance. I don't see an open relationship as necessarily a route to feelings of security. This is an unromantic analogy, but it's kind of like being a contractor as opposed to being hired on salary... yes you are less dependent on each job (person) but you have to work to get every job, and you can't really relax into any job. It's even worse when you are a contractor with only one major client (i.e. in a technically open but functionally monogamous relationship)-- dependent yet disposable.
So my feeling about non-monogamy is that it's fine for people who have the time and interest to work on it as a challenge. Are you such a person, or do you just want to not have to worry about it?
Post by: JLee on November 01, 2017, 06:21:24 PM
ptf.
Just skimmed all the responses, but I think that you might want to consider the role that you want relationship maintenance to take in your life.
No love is completely set-it-and-forget-it, but my spouse and I each have passionate missions in life which are made possible by the fact that we have basically settled all our romantic issues. So our relationship is not so much the center of our lives as a solid base. We sometimes feel a flash of jealousy here and there as is natural, but it's more of a feeling of, "you jerk, are you rocking the boat?"
I think this is more possible in a mature monogamous relationship; whereas an open relationship seems like it would require constant rebalancing and maintenance. I don't see an open relationship as necessarily a route to feelings of security. This is an unromantic analogy, but it's kind of like being a contractor as opposed to being hired on salary... yes you are less dependent on each job (person) but you have to work to get every job, and you can't really relax into any job. It's even worse when you are a contractor with only one major client (i.e. in a technically open but functionally monogamous relationship)-- dependent yet disposable.
So my feeling about non-monogamy is that it's fine for people who have the time and interest to work on it as a challenge. Are you such a person, or do you just want to not have to worry about it?
As someone in a 5 year polyamorous relationship, I find the "disposable" analogy to be a rather dismissive interpretation that implies a non-monogamous relationship is less real or significant than a monogamous one.
Post by: Poundwise on November 01, 2017, 07:00:07 PM
ptf.
Just skimmed all the responses, but I think that you might want to consider the role that you want relationship maintenance to take in your life.
No love is completely set-it-and-forget-it, but my spouse and I each have passionate missions in life which are made possible by the fact that we have basically settled all our romantic issues. So our relationship is not so much the center of our lives as a solid base. We sometimes feel a flash of jealousy here and there as is natural, but it's more of a feeling of, "you jerk, are you rocking the boat?"
I think this is more possible in a mature monogamous relationship; whereas an open relationship seems like it would require constant rebalancing and maintenance. I don't see an open relationship as necessarily a route to feelings of security. This is an unromantic analogy, but it's kind of like being a contractor as opposed to being hired on salary... yes you are less dependent on each job (person) but you have to work to get every job, and you can't really relax into any job. It's even worse when you are a contractor with only one major client (i.e. in a technically open but functionally monogamous relationship)-- dependent yet disposable.
So my feeling about non-monogamy is that it's fine for people who have the time and interest to work on it as a challenge. Are you such a person, or do you just want to not have to worry about it?
As someone in a 5 year polyamorous relationship, I find the "disposable" analogy to be a rather dismissive interpretation that implies a non-monogamous relationship is less real or significant than a monogamous one.
Sorry, that was not my intent.
Post by: JLee on November 01, 2017, 07:40:34 PM
ptf.
Just skimmed all the responses, but I think that you might want to consider the role that you want relationship maintenance to take in your life.
No love is completely set-it-and-forget-it, but my spouse and I each have passionate missions in life which are made possible by the fact that we have basically settled all our romantic issues. So our relationship is not so much the center of our lives as a solid base. We sometimes feel a flash of jealousy here and there as is natural, but it's more of a feeling of, "you jerk, are you rocking the boat?"
I think this is more possible in a mature monogamous relationship; whereas an open relationship seems like it would require constant rebalancing and maintenance. I don't see an open relationship as necessarily a route to feelings of security. This is an unromantic analogy, but it's kind of like being a contractor as opposed to being hired on salary... yes you are less dependent on each job (person) but you have to work to get every job, and you can't really relax into any job. It's even worse when you are a contractor with only one major client (i.e. in a technically open but functionally monogamous relationship)-- dependent yet disposable.
So my feeling about non-monogamy is that it's fine for people who have the time and interest to work on it as a challenge. Are you such a person, or do you just want to not have to worry about it?
As someone in a 5 year polyamorous relationship, I find the "disposable" analogy to be a rather dismissive interpretation that implies a non-monogamous relationship is less real or significant than a monogamous one.
Sorry, that was not my intent.
I do agree with the general sentiment behind your post. I feel similarly in my current relationship (minus the "you jerk, rocking the boat" sentiment if any jealousy crops up) - we are basically on autopilot. The time/challenge aspect was dramatically greater in the early phases than it is today.
Post by: Cali Nonya on November 01, 2017, 07:50:11 PM
Not to ask anything too personal, but I wonder if you are a younger or older person. And why I would ask, is that when you are getting along in years and viewing relationships in terms of retirement and aging (the care and compassion part gets more important than the love & sex part), the more easily defined mono relationship seems more ... logical? simpler?
(Not throwing stones, I just have noticed some of my more alt friends aging into much more conventional relationships)
Post by: JLee on November 01, 2017, 09:05:46 PM
JLee:
Not to ask anything too personal, but I wonder if you are a younger or older person. And why I would ask, is that when you are getting along in years and viewing relationships in terms of retirement and aging (the care and compassion part gets more important than the love & sex part), the more easily defined mono relationship seems more ... logical? simpler?
(Not throwing stones, I just have noticed some of my more alt friends aging into much more conventional relationships)
Care and compassion is not something only available to those who practice monogamy, though it is not necessarily involved in non-monogamy as the world of non-monogamy (https://faustusnotes.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/nonmonogamy2-5-1.gif) is quite broad. Unfortunately, I can attest from life experience that monogamy does not guarantee care and compassion either!
This branches off more to polyamory specifically, but polyamorous relationships aren't necessarily sexual either (see the polyamorous asexual (https://goodmenproject.com/gender-sexuality/big-fat-polyamorous-asexual-post-jvinc/)). Regarding logic; while I recognize and respect those who make it their choice, I find monogamy to be illogical - it is a product of the concept that women are property (https://thenib.com/the-invention-of-monogamy). Regarding the underlying societal assumption that polyamory is all about sex, this is relevant (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dear-media-polyamory-is-not-all-about-sex_us_57f7d96ee4b090dec0e71060).
Monogamy is certainly simpler - I doubt you'll find many to disagree there. Relationships get exponentially more complex as you add people. A relationship with AB just has the relationship between A and B. A relationship with ABC has relationships between A and B, A and C, B and C, and then A, B, and C combined. Add a fourth person, and...well, you see how complicated it can be!
Working a desk job til I reach social security age and then retiring with a fat 401k and social security check would be a lot simpler than managing investments and side gigs to retire early..but what can I say, the simple life is not for me. ;)
To answer your question, I'm in my mid 30's.
Post by: expatartist on November 01, 2017, 09:58:29 PM
I do think it's important to listen to what my partner has to say about worrying that being strictly monogamous is going to be hard for them/is a concern, and to see if I can overcome some recent programming to be open to it. But it's not like I'm going to evolve light years because of that! Slow and steady is probably the best I can hope for, or slow and then not at all, and then maybe a bit slower.
NB, sorry if you've posted this up-thread and I'm asking you to repeat, but did you initiate these conversations, or did he?
Post by: Cookie78 on November 04, 2017, 10:38:01 PM
So, what are the appropriate ways to control one's feelings while still trying to express them but not using them as manipulation?
The best advice I have is to practice communication. The best way to express your feelings without using them as manipulation is to start a conversation in way that's clear that you want to discuss your feelings and that you in no way are blaming your partners actions. Emotions happen, trying to ignore them, even when they may not be rational, sucks. Face them head on, accept them, and ask your partner for support if you need it. Other support like counseling is awesome too.
How to handle knowing you are one part of a partner's life, but that other parts are important (sometimes equally or even more so) too?
I had this problem once or twice in the first year of my polyamorous relationship. I wrote down all the things I was insecure about on post it notes and put them on a poster board, I'd also write down possible reasons for the insecurities, then wrote down answers and ideas on other post it notes (or immediate actions I could take to help at the time). They were positive things I knew or believed, but couldn't remember at times of insecurity. Then, whenever I had a stumble I could look at my board and immediately remember why my insecurities were irrational. Having it in writing helped. After awhile I didn't need the board anymore.
Does this impact your relationship or has it in the past and what are your ground rules for yourself and your partner?
I haven't even been terribly jealous of other people, but the uninvited events part hits a chord for my past self!
Ground rules: Open honest communication. In the past if we've struggled with something we talk to each other about it and work through it together, without blame.
As for monogamish, it may be harder to feel comfortable with if you are already feeling jealous. It may work out to be really beneficial if you can work through the insecurities, or it may backfire spectacularly. I'd recommend proceeding slowly. If I may ask, how exactly do you 'go haywire' when you bring up the mongamish topic? Do you react immediately during the conversation? Or is it more of an enhanced jealousy reaction in the following days or weeks?
The thing is that what I actually most want is to be free of being totally afraid of non monogamy. Like, I know I could be okay with it (under terms that I get to pick!) if my activated terror brain could calm down. Which I think it is maybe going to be able to do! Or, I'm wrong, and it won't be for me, and we'll go from there.
Completely understand this. Even knowing for sure I wanted to try it was still really scary to jump in. SO much societal conditioning to work through before I got to all the comfortable awesome parts! And some of it may hurt. That's ok. In my experience each new 'first' is a little hurdle. Some hurdles are higher than others.
If you are still working through past painful experiences I can imagine it would be a lot harder. Honestly if you find this to be the cause of your insecurity I'd try to work through that first, ideally with a counselor, before adding potentially more complications.
I would 100% rather be free of all my anxiety around this. Because it bleeds into all sorts of other things in the relationship (time apart, friendships, independence) by wanting to control a feeling of safety and set all the terms and that's just not healthy!
I think the fact is, desire is scary, because we don't totally control it. And monogamy is a way of trying to control it that prioritizes the stability/safety of the relationship which I totally get! But there are totally ways of being monogamish that still prioritize the same. Like...it's really just sex. And it can even be something that happens together! And why would I hold back from new experiences just because there is programming that the right way is to keep everything just between two people? The fact is, there are totally things in being a little more open that intrigue me, it's just the fear gets in the way. Because the unknown is alarming! but if it becomes less unknown, it probably becomes less scary, or at least I can know for certain what I think, rather than having a knee jerk reaction control me.
This is a REALLY good point.
Re: 'it's really just sex' Other posters are correct, it's not necessarily always going to be or remain just sex. But that's ok too. In the end, trying to ensure everything is 'just sex' is just another method of control used to feel safe and secure. (Not that there's anything wrong with that between two consenting adults imo)
Post by: koshtra on November 05, 2017, 12:38:16 AM
I found it reassuring to learn that adultery is quite common among many birds and some mammals that were originally thought to "mate for life." A public pairing with surreptitious outside episodes now and then is actually a fairly common set-up. There are two countervailing forces: a force for family building and stability, and "the selfish gene" which doesn't give a damn about those things. Give them each some room and you end up with the semi-fictitious monogamy typical of many human societies.
So some especially conscientious people want to make everything aboveboard. But official monogamy IS how we say we're committed. It's our language for it. And you don't really get to make up your own language, not for long, not for keeps. So if someone says "I'm totally committed to our relationship but I want these other episodes too" it basically sounds like "I'm totally committed except that I'm not committed at all." And of course that's going to make us jealous and anxious.
Back when I thought of all the arrangements as basically cultural I thought we should be able to just overcome our anxieties and jealousies, by force of will and trusting in love and all those good things. But maybe we're just biologically stuck with semi-fictitious monogamy because we're pretty much a pair-bonding species and that's how pair-bonding actually works.
Which probably helps not at all, except possibly in offering a new, distressing-but-in-different-ways model.
Post by: JLee on November 05, 2017, 06:26:23 AM
Oh, this sounds stressful as all git out.
I found it reassuring to learn that adultery is quite common among many birds and some mammals that were originally thought to "mate for life." A public pairing with surreptitious outside episodes now and then is actually a fairly common set-up. There are two countervailing forces: a force for family building and stability, and "the selfish gene" which doesn't give a damn about those things. Give them each some room and you end up with the semi-fictitious monogamy typical of many human societies.
So some especially conscientious people want to make everything aboveboard. But official monogamy IS how we say we're committed. It's our language for it. And you don't really get to make up your own language, not for long, not for keeps. So if someone says "I'm totally committed to our relationship but I want these other episodes too" it basically sounds like "I'm totally committed except that I'm not committed at all." And of course that's going to make us jealous and anxious.
Back when I thought of all the arrangements as basically cultural I thought we should be able to just overcome our anxieties and jealousies, by force of will and trusting in love and all those good things. But maybe we're just biologically stuck with semi-fictitious monogamy because we're pretty much a pair-bonding species and that's how pair-bonding actually works.
Which probably helps not at all, except possibly in offering a new, distressing-but-in-different-ways model.
You may want to read through the links I posted - notably the one that explains how monogamy is a modern social construct that evolved over the concept of women as property.
Post by: koshtra on November 05, 2017, 12:07:50 PM
Oh, this sounds stressful as all git out.
I found it reassuring to learn that adultery is quite common among many birds and some mammals that were originally thought to "mate for life." A public pairing with surreptitious outside episodes now and then is actually a fairly common set-up. There are two countervailing forces: a force for family building and stability, and "the selfish gene" which doesn't give a damn about those things. Give them each some room and you end up with the semi-fictitious monogamy typical of many human societies.
So some especially conscientious people want to make everything aboveboard. But official monogamy IS how we say we're committed. It's our language for it. And you don't really get to make up your own language, not for long, not for keeps. So if someone says "I'm totally committed to our relationship but I want these other episodes too" it basically sounds like "I'm totally committed except that I'm not committed at all." And of course that's going to make us jealous and anxious.
Back when I thought of all the arrangements as basically cultural I thought we should be able to just overcome our anxieties and jealousies, by force of will and trusting in love and all those good things. But maybe we're just biologically stuck with semi-fictitious monogamy because we're pretty much a pair-bonding species and that's how pair-bonding actually works.
Which probably helps not at all, except possibly in offering a new, distressing-but-in-different-ways model.
You may want to read through the links I posted - notably the one that explains how monogamy is a modern social construct that evolved over the concept of women as property.
Thanks! Yes, I've read them.
Humans used to be like the other great apes, and like most primates -- they basically had zero tolerance for strangers and lived in small close-knit bands. Monogamy was probably not typical of these bands. At some point agriculture and property and tolerating strangers explode on the human scene and change everything. We're still picking up the pieces. I suspect the presence of strangers and acquaintances had more to do with the development of pair-bonding (and other marriage constructs; pair-bonding is probably the most common but there have been lots of others) than property, but I'm familiar with the property argument.
I probably inadvertently made it sound like I was a biological determinist. I'm not: but I think there's a lot of convergent social evolution. When a species that evolved as a small-band social animal starts to live in large groups, lots of things start happening, including a risk of "abandonment in the crowd." Small-band primates don't have to worry about abandonment -- it pretty much never happens. But it happens to us, all the time, and it's pretty terrifying. There's nothing remotely irrational about jealousy and anxiety.
Post by: JLee on November 05, 2017, 08:27:53 PM
Oh, this sounds stressful as all git out.
I found it reassuring to learn that adultery is quite common among many birds and some mammals that were originally thought to "mate for life." A public pairing with surreptitious outside episodes now and then is actually a fairly common set-up. There are two countervailing forces: a force for family building and stability, and "the selfish gene" which doesn't give a damn about those things. Give them each some room and you end up with the semi-fictitious monogamy typical of many human societies.
So some especially conscientious people want to make everything aboveboard. But official monogamy IS how we say we're committed. It's our language for it. And you don't really get to make up your own language, not for long, not for keeps. So if someone says "I'm totally committed to our relationship but I want these other episodes too" it basically sounds like "I'm totally committed except that I'm not committed at all." And of course that's going to make us jealous and anxious.
Back when I thought of all the arrangements as basically cultural I thought we should be able to just overcome our anxieties and jealousies, by force of will and trusting in love and all those good things. But maybe we're just biologically stuck with semi-fictitious monogamy because we're pretty much a pair-bonding species and that's how pair-bonding actually works.
Which probably helps not at all, except possibly in offering a new, distressing-but-in-different-ways model.
You may want to read through the links I posted - notably the one that explains how monogamy is a modern social construct that evolved over the concept of women as property.
Thanks! Yes, I've read them.
Humans used to be like the other great apes, and like most primates -- they basically had zero tolerance for strangers and lived in small close-knit bands. Monogamy was probably not typical of these bands. At some point agriculture and property and tolerating strangers explode on the human scene and change everything. We're still picking up the pieces. I suspect the presence of strangers and acquaintances had more to do with the development of pair-bonding (and other marriage constructs; pair-bonding is probably the most common but there have been lots of others) than property, but I'm familiar with the property argument.
I probably inadvertently made it sound like I was a biological determinist. I'm not: but I think there's a lot of convergent social evolution. When a species that evolved as a small-band social animal starts to live in large groups, lots of things start happening, including a risk of "abandonment in the crowd." Small-band primates don't have to worry about abandonment -- it pretty much never happens. But it happens to us, all the time, and it's pretty terrifying. There's nothing remotely irrational about jealousy and anxiety.
It sounded like the modern "traditional" relationship style was the only one that mattered and anybody living outside of that construct was temporarily "making up their own language." The conclusion drawn is that any relationship that does not fit your predefined mold is "not committed at all"...and as someone 5 years into an open/polyamorous relationship who has seen "committed" monogamous relationships end in divorce, I must disagree.
Post by: koshtra on November 05, 2017, 09:57:00 PM
Oh, this sounds stressful as all git out.
I found it reassuring to learn that adultery is quite common among many birds and some mammals that were originally thought to "mate for life." A public pairing with surreptitious outside episodes now and then is actually a fairly common set-up. There are two countervailing forces: a force for family building and stability, and "the selfish gene" which doesn't give a damn about those things. Give them each some room and you end up with the semi-fictitious monogamy typical of many human societies.
So some especially conscientious people want to make everything aboveboard. But official monogamy IS how we say we're committed. It's our language for it. And you don't really get to make up your own language, not for long, not for keeps. So if someone says "I'm totally committed to our relationship but I want these other episodes too" it basically sounds like "I'm totally committed except that I'm not committed at all." And of course that's going to make us jealous and anxious.
Back when I thought of all the arrangements as basically cultural I thought we should be able to just overcome our anxieties and jealousies, by force of will and trusting in love and all those good things. But maybe we're just biologically stuck with semi-fictitious monogamy because we're pretty much a pair-bonding species and that's how pair-bonding actually works.
Which probably helps not at all, except possibly in offering a new, distressing-but-in-different-ways model.
You may want to read through the links I posted - notably the one that explains how monogamy is a modern social construct that evolved over the concept of women as property.
Thanks! Yes, I've read them.
Humans used to be like the other great apes, and like most primates -- they basically had zero tolerance for strangers and lived in small close-knit bands. Monogamy was probably not typical of these bands. At some point agriculture and property and tolerating strangers explode on the human scene and change everything. We're still picking up the pieces. I suspect the presence of strangers and acquaintances had more to do with the development of pair-bonding (and other marriage constructs; pair-bonding is probably the most common but there have been lots of others) than property, but I'm familiar with the property argument.
I probably inadvertently made it sound like I was a biological determinist. I'm not: but I think there's a lot of convergent social evolution. When a species that evolved as a small-band social animal starts to live in large groups, lots of things start happening, including a risk of "abandonment in the crowd." Small-band primates don't have to worry about abandonment -- it pretty much never happens. But it happens to us, all the time, and it's pretty terrifying. There's nothing remotely irrational about jealousy and anxiety.
It sounded like the modern "traditional" relationship style was the only one that mattered and anybody living outside of that construct was temporarily "making up their own language." The conclusion drawn is that any relationship that does not fit your predefined mold is "not committed at all"...and as someone 5 years into an open/polyamorous relationship who has seen "committed" monogamous relationships end in divorce, I must disagree.
Wow, I'm really sorry. I apologize. That was not what I meant to convey at all.
Post by: JLee on November 05, 2017, 11:10:53 PM
Oh, this sounds stressful as all git out.
I found it reassuring to learn that adultery is quite common among many birds and some mammals that were originally thought to "mate for life." A public pairing with surreptitious outside episodes now and then is actually a fairly common set-up. There are two countervailing forces: a force for family building and stability, and "the selfish gene" which doesn't give a damn about those things. Give them each some room and you end up with the semi-fictitious monogamy typical of many human societies.
So some especially conscientious people want to make everything aboveboard. But official monogamy IS how we say we're committed. It's our language for it. And you don't really get to make up your own language, not for long, not for keeps. So if someone says "I'm totally committed to our relationship but I want these other episodes too" it basically sounds like "I'm totally committed except that I'm not committed at all." And of course that's going to make us jealous and anxious.
Back when I thought of all the arrangements as basically cultural I thought we should be able to just overcome our anxieties and jealousies, by force of will and trusting in love and all those good things. But maybe we're just biologically stuck with semi-fictitious monogamy because we're pretty much a pair-bonding species and that's how pair-bonding actually works.
Which probably helps not at all, except possibly in offering a new, distressing-but-in-different-ways model.
You may want to read through the links I posted - notably the one that explains how monogamy is a modern social construct that evolved over the concept of women as property.
Thanks! Yes, I've read them.
Humans used to be like the other great apes, and like most primates -- they basically had zero tolerance for strangers and lived in small close-knit bands. Monogamy was probably not typical of these bands. At some point agriculture and property and tolerating strangers explode on the human scene and change everything. We're still picking up the pieces. I suspect the presence of strangers and acquaintances had more to do with the development of pair-bonding (and other marriage constructs; pair-bonding is probably the most common but there have been lots of others) than property, but I'm familiar with the property argument.
I probably inadvertently made it sound like I was a biological determinist. I'm not: but I think there's a lot of convergent social evolution. When a species that evolved as a small-band social animal starts to live in large groups, lots of things start happening, including a risk of "abandonment in the crowd." Small-band primates don't have to worry about abandonment -- it pretty much never happens. But it happens to us, all the time, and it's pretty terrifying. There's nothing remotely irrational about jealousy and anxiety.
It sounded like the modern "traditional" relationship style was the only one that mattered and anybody living outside of that construct was temporarily "making up their own language." The conclusion drawn is that any relationship that does not fit your predefined mold is "not committed at all"...and as someone 5 years into an open/polyamorous relationship who has seen "committed" monogamous relationships end in divorce, I must disagree.
Wow, I'm really sorry. I apologize. That was not what I meant to convey at all.
No worries! I'm reread it again just now, and I think I've got what you meant. :)
Post by: norabird on November 06, 2017, 02:15:03 PM
Post by: partgypsy on November 06, 2017, 03:32:27 PM
Post by: wenchsenior on November 06, 2017, 07:02:07 PM
I wanted to point out, that people saying they are undoing years of recent culturing wiring" of monogamy, well there is a lot of biological and evolutionary data, everything from the size of male penis, to male female differences, that point out we are as they say "monogamish". We pair bond, but there is some amount of chatting going on (yes, from both genders). Which makes sense. Raising human offspring is very time labor intensive, really it was the females in pair bonds or otherwise extended family help that raised those children to the extent they passed their genes on to subsequent generations.so I disagree with those who maintain stable pair bonding aka marriage is some arbitrary cultural construct. There is wiring, even wiring you can be aware of and decide to do differently, but it's deep.
As a biologist, this is accurate. Monogamish behavior with some outside partnering is evolutionarily advantageous for primates with long dependent periods for young and low reproductive rate. Society just decided to codify the monogamish part into 'official monogamy' and condemn that occasional outside partnering. But monogamy is not biologically 'abnormal' for humans. Neither is 'getting a little on the side'. How these evolutionary adaptations affect our emotions are a different thing entirely. There are a lot of things that are completely normal in nature that conferred evolutionary advantage in some species (including rape and infanticide, even in our species) but that would probably destabilize society as we currently have it set up, and also give us a lot of personal emotional angst.
Post by: koshtra on November 07, 2017, 08:15:28 AM
But your original question... I don't know if I can even remember our original ground rules. It was an open relationship, in the early years, but we didn't make a point of being public about it, and somewhere along the line the monogamy that other people assumed (we obviously adore each other) became de facto. It's weird being the monogamy poster-children now -- we've been together forty-some years and people have taken to gushing about us and finding us adorable -- when we never had any intention of practicing monogamy, and pointedly omitted it from our wedding vows. But people see what they want to see.