Author Topic: Israel vs Hamas  (Read 78668 times)

partgypsy

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #750 on: September 21, 2024, 09:46:15 AM »
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A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.
When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?
Nuclear engineers working on Iran's nuclear weapons program are not mere civilians.
Some likely were, but not all the scientists assassinated were working on Iran's weapons program.  Moussad has a history of killing the wrong people while performing these extra-judicial murders and getting away with it/having the Israeli government attempt to cover it up (see the murder of waiter Ahmed Bouchikhi as one of the rare instances where six of the fifteen Moussad agents involved were caught and convicted in Norway as just one example - Israel was willing to pay some money to the family for the murder, but never admitted their mistake).

I've also got to ask you . . . how far exactly does justifiable killing based on military association go in your eyes?  You've asserted that anyone involved in a nuclear weapons program is not a civilian.  But what if you work in a factory that makes bombs?  What if you work in a factory that produces ammunition, some of which is for sale to the military and some for private use?  What if your factory produces bolts that are used in tank construction?  I'm curious, where exactly do you draw the line?
Do you agree with my correction, that nuclear engineers are not merely civilians?  Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons.  Iran wants Israel wiped off the map.  You calling nuclear engineers "civilians" needs correcting, because nuclear weapons are not a peaceful civilian enterprise.

I'm aware of multiple Iranian nuclear scientists being assassinated by Mossad, perhaps only the most famous cases.  If you're trying to make a point about the numbers, it would be better to discuss actual numbers.

As to the killing of a waiter in 1973, you left out vital context.  In 1972, the Palestinian militant organization Black September murdered 11 Israeli Olympic athletes.  That is the context for Mossad mistaking someone as the mastermind of that attack.  Mossad killed many members of both the PLO and Black September to avenge the deaths of its Olympic athletes.  When you divide that one waiter's death over the number of militants killed, your mention of a "history of killing the wrong people" rings hollow.  You're cherry picking one death, and ignoring hundreds of Palestinian terrorists and militants all tied to the same event, the same context.

Your list of "what ifs" doesn't mean much until Israel makes a practice of killing people in those roles.  Other than nuclear researchers/scientists/engineers, who does Israel target outside the military?  I haven't looked it up myself, but to me it makes more sense to discuss what happened.
I would follow Ellen o Grady on instagram. She lived in Gaza. She does a comic talking about the war, and the people she knew who have been killed or affected since the war started. These include translators, poets, social activists, people who ran a deaf school, and just regular folks. Some of them died after being detained or in prison. They were neither in hamas nor nuclear scientists.  https://www.instagram.com/ellenogradyart/  For the record I support Israel's right to exist. I do not support human rights violations, and feel the US needs to speak out or at least have support be contingent on following rules of war conduct.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2024, 09:50:28 AM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #751 on: September 21, 2024, 11:12:20 AM »
...
A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.
When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?
Nuclear engineers working on Iran's nuclear weapons program are not mere civilians.
Some likely were, but not all the scientists assassinated were working on Iran's weapons program.  Moussad has a history of killing the wrong people while performing these extra-judicial murders and getting away with it/having the Israeli government attempt to cover it up (see the murder of waiter Ahmed Bouchikhi as one of the rare instances where six of the fifteen Moussad agents involved were caught and convicted in Norway as just one example - Israel was willing to pay some money to the family for the murder, but never admitted their mistake).

I've also got to ask you . . . how far exactly does justifiable killing based on military association go in your eyes?  You've asserted that anyone involved in a nuclear weapons program is not a civilian.  But what if you work in a factory that makes bombs?  What if you work in a factory that produces ammunition, some of which is for sale to the military and some for private use?  What if your factory produces bolts that are used in tank construction?  I'm curious, where exactly do you draw the line?
Do you agree with my correction, that nuclear engineers are not merely civilians?  Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons.  Iran wants Israel wiped off the map.  You calling nuclear engineers "civilians" needs correcting, because nuclear weapons are not a peaceful civilian enterprise.

No, I don't.  Iran has nuclear power plants used for generating electricity for it's civilian population.  Iran also has a nuclear weapons program.  Israel has assassinated people working on the former as well as the latter.

The problem with extra-judicial murders being sanctioned and carried out by a country is that oversight and accountability are both non-existant.  I'm not OK with any state acting in this manner.  Without strong and open judicial oversight, abuses will certainly occur, and the state has no reason to ever come clean or try to correct mistakes made (to the extent that this is even possible - dead is dead).


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As to the killing of a waiter in 1973, you left out vital context.  In 1972, the Palestinian militant organization Black September murdered 11 Israeli Olympic athletes.  That is the context for Mossad mistaking someone as the mastermind of that attack.  Mossad killed many members of both the PLO and Black September to avenge the deaths of its Olympic athletes.  When you divide that one waiter's death over the number of militants killed, your mention of a "history of killing the wrong people" rings hollow.  You're cherry picking one death, and ignoring hundreds of Palestinian terrorists and militants all tied to the same event, the same context.

Context actually makes it worse in my eyes.  Israel's thirst for vengeance overrode their interest in finding the correct party to retaliate against . . . And then they refused to ever take responsibility for their actions.  Being innocent and wronged doesn't give you the right to wrong another innocent person because you feel bloodlust.

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Your list of "what ifs" doesn't mean much until Israel makes a practice of killing people in those roles.  Other than nuclear researchers/scientists/engineers, who does Israel target outside the military?

Israel has been , and continues to restrict flow of medical supplies and food into Gaza.  This was premeditated (as evidenced by comments made by senior Israeli politicians) and is intended to punish Palestinan civilians for the actions of Hamas.  It's not currently known how many civilians have died in Gaza by these actions, but most estimates I've read that deaths are higher from this than the 41,000 dead from Israeli weapons since October 7th.  This is unequivocally genocide.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #752 on: September 23, 2024, 01:37:39 AM »
Iranian nuclear engineers provide the ability for Iran to nuke Israel.  You can't acknowledge that as a threat, we can't really agree on anything.  But perhaps we can agree on another news story.

"Israel raids and shuts down Al Jazeera’s bureau in Ramallah in the West Bank"
"Israeli troops raided the offices of the satellite news network Al Jazeera in the Israeli-occupied West Bank early Sunday, ordering the bureau to shut down amid a widening campaign by Israel targeting the Qatar-funded broadcaster as it covers the Israel-Hamas war in the Gaza Strip."

"The move marked the first time Israel has ever shuttered a foreign news outlet operating in the country."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-al-jazeera-gaza-war-hamas-4abdb2969e39e7ad99dfbf9caa7bb32c

This is an attack on free speech.  I don't agree with Al Jazeera's focus on Gaza to the exclusion of other news coverage, but that's an editorial decision for them to make.  But it is not for the Israeli military to decide.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #753 on: September 23, 2024, 07:21:45 AM »
Iranian nuclear engineers provide the ability for Iran to nuke Israel.  You can't acknowledge that as a threat, we can't really agree on anything.  But perhaps we can agree on another news story.

"Israel raids and shuts down Al Jazeera’s bureau in Ramallah in the West Bank"
"Israeli troops raided the offices of the satellite news network Al Jazeera in the Israeli-occupied West Bank early Sunday, ordering the bureau to shut down amid a widening campaign by Israel targeting the Qatar-funded broadcaster as it covers the Israel-Hamas war in the Gaza Strip."

"The move marked the first time Israel has ever shuttered a foreign news outlet operating in the country."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-al-jazeera-gaza-war-hamas-4abdb2969e39e7ad99dfbf9caa7bb32c

This is an attack on free speech.  I don't agree with Al Jazeera's focus on Gaza to the exclusion of other news coverage, but that's an editorial decision for them to make.  But it is not for the Israeli military to decide.
Al Jazeera was one of the few media outlets brave enough to put journalists on the ground. As such, they offered a higher level of coverage than the US or European networks which often just had journalists "reporting" (talking into a camera) from half a kilometer outside of Gaza, or being walked around the safest areas by Israeli troops. Was it biased against Israel? Absolutely. But at least they offered a view inside Gaza. They had the linguistic skills to speak to the residents, get through the crossings, sustain themselves, etc. and therefore bought something new to the table compared to everyone else.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #754 on: September 23, 2024, 07:23:20 AM »
Iranian nuclear engineers provide the ability for Iran to nuke Israel.  You can't acknowledge that as a threat, we can't really agree on anything.

You didn't ask if I acknowledged that people with knowledge of nuclear science are a threat.  You were asking me to confirm your statement that they're not really civilians.  The two questions are quite different.

In the latter it would be legal under international law to attack and kill these scientists - as they would be considered military fighting forces.  As I mentioned, many of the scientists in Iran's nuclear program are working power generation - clearly a civilian and not military job.  They are not military.

For the former question - are people with knowledge of nuclear science a threat to Israel . . . sure.  I mean depending on your viewpoint, you could argue that free speech is a threat to Israel's defense (as Israel has been doing since the start of their war against Hamas), criticism of the government is a threat for Israel, following the Geneva conventions is a threat for Israel, giving people a fair trial is a threat for Israel . . . all of these things have effectively been stated by the actions that Israel's government has taken.  We live in a world where there are plenty of potential threats that don't justify murder.


But perhaps we can agree on another news story.

"Israel raids and shuts down Al Jazeera’s bureau in Ramallah in the West Bank"
"Israeli troops raided the offices of the satellite news network Al Jazeera in the Israeli-occupied West Bank early Sunday, ordering the bureau to shut down amid a widening campaign by Israel targeting the Qatar-funded broadcaster as it covers the Israel-Hamas war in the Gaza Strip."

"The move marked the first time Israel has ever shuttered a foreign news outlet operating in the country."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-al-jazeera-gaza-war-hamas-4abdb2969e39e7ad99dfbf9caa7bb32c

This is an attack on free speech.  I don't agree with Al Jazeera's focus on Gaza to the exclusion of other news coverage, but that's an editorial decision for them to make.  But it is not for the Israeli military to decide.

Yep.  This is nothing new though, we were talking about it in May:
Since the start of this war, Israel's government has been cracking down on freedom of the press in order to hide the reality of the war being waged in Gaza from the Israeli people (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-war-press-freedom-1.7218365).  This has included seizing equipment from the Associated Press, banning Al-Jazeera from operating in Israel at all by blocking all of it's news channels/websites and shutting down it's places of operation via government raids, prohibiting foreign and Israeli journalists from reporting in Gaza without military chaperones.

Netanyahu himself has avoided giving any interviews about the war in Gaza at all with Israeli news since it started, preferring only to give interviews with foreign news stations and only in English.  Journalists and members of the media have commented about the extraordinary levels of censorship from the Israeli military and self-censorship that Israeli media has performed during this conflict so far.  This includes showing only footage received from the IDF absent the atrocities that the rest of the world is aware of, more than 600 news articles being directly banned by the IDF before publication, and more than 2,700 news articles being censored or redacted by the IDF prior to being printed.  (https://www.972mag.com/israeli-military-censor-media-2023/)

This all makes sense.  It's hard to protest against injustice being done in your name when you aren't aware of the injustice.  A democracy is much easier to run when you can keep voters ignorant.  Netanyahu has seen how effective media control is when dictators use it, and is checking how far it can be pushed in his own country.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #755 on: September 24, 2024, 01:57:30 AM »
"Israel raids and shuts down Al Jazeera’s bureau in Ramallah in the West Bank"
Yep.  This is nothing new though, we were talking about it in May:
You were not talking about this specific Al Jazeera bureau being shut down in May, because it happened this week.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #756 on: September 24, 2024, 07:04:02 AM »
"Israel raids and shuts down Al Jazeera’s bureau in Ramallah in the West Bank"
Yep.  This is nothing new though, we were talking about it in May:
You were not talking about this specific Al Jazeera bureau being shut down in May, because it happened this week.

Sure . . . was just pointing out that Israel has been raiding and shutting down news organizations unwilling to censor their reports since the beginning of the conflict in Gaza.  This is nothing new, it's a continuation of Israeli government policy.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #757 on: October 01, 2024, 11:29:28 AM »
Well, Israel has begun another ground invasion of Lebanon.  Iran has been launching waves of missiles into Israel in retaliation.  It seems likely that Israel will perform airstrikes in Iran.  Seems like the US has completely lost any control they had of Israel.  Fuck.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 11:41:14 AM by GuitarStv »

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #758 on: October 01, 2024, 12:12:13 PM »
Well, Israel has begun another ground invasion of Lebanon.  Iran has been launching waves of missiles into Israel in retaliation.  It seems likely that Israel will perform airstrikes in Iran.  Seems like the US has completely lost any control they had of Israel.  Fuck.

Biden is super weak right now.  Lame duck as he isn't running and publicly humiliated as a senile old man.  Kamala has hands tied because intervening is a no win position for her.  Condemning Iran for Kamala means denying the sovereignty of the Palestinians in a weird oblique way.  Loses votes of Muslims and the areligious and even anti-Zionist Jews.  Condemning Israel means the Evangelicals lose their shit.   Her best option is silence (and subsequently looking weak and ineffective). 

dividendman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #759 on: October 01, 2024, 01:05:10 PM »
Well, Israel has begun another ground invasion of Lebanon.  Iran has been launching waves of missiles into Israel in retaliation.  It seems likely that Israel will perform airstrikes in Iran.  Seems like the US has completely lost any control they had of Israel.  Fuck.

The US should not seek to control Israel. The US should be joining Israel in eliminating Hezbollah and Hamas (both designated terrorist organizations by the US). The US should also seek an authorization for use of military force against the IRGC which is also a designated terrorist organization - although this may be covered under the Sept. 11 AUMF.

Note the US naval ships in the middle-east have been fired upon numerous times by Iran-backed Houthi militants, to no response. Biden is a weak president. There should be overwhelming force applied when the US military is attacked.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #760 on: October 01, 2024, 01:22:12 PM »
Well, Israel has begun another ground invasion of Lebanon.  Iran has been launching waves of missiles into Israel in retaliation.  It seems likely that Israel will perform airstrikes in Iran.  Seems like the US has completely lost any control they had of Israel.  Fuck.

The US should not seek to control Israel. The US should be joining Israel in eliminating Hezbollah and Hamas (both designated terrorist organizations by the US). The US should also seek an authorization for use of military force against the IRGC which is also a designated terrorist organization - although this may be covered under the Sept. 11 AUMF.

I'm on board with that, provided no war crimes are committed.  It's only when people fighting terrorists start acting like terrorists and wantonly killing civilians where I get upset.  These actions (beyond the obvious human costs/toll) tend to prolong and worsen conflict.  Historically you can't really kill your way to peace.

dividendman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #761 on: October 01, 2024, 01:37:07 PM »
Well, Israel has begun another ground invasion of Lebanon.  Iran has been launching waves of missiles into Israel in retaliation.  It seems likely that Israel will perform airstrikes in Iran.  Seems like the US has completely lost any control they had of Israel.  Fuck.

The US should not seek to control Israel. The US should be joining Israel in eliminating Hezbollah and Hamas (both designated terrorist organizations by the US). The US should also seek an authorization for use of military force against the IRGC which is also a designated terrorist organization - although this may be covered under the Sept. 11 AUMF.

I'm on board with that, provided no war crimes are committed.  It's only when people fighting terrorists start acting like terrorists and wantonly killing civilians where I get upset.  These actions (beyond the obvious human costs/toll) tend to prolong and worsen conflict. Historically you can't really kill your way to peace.

Citation needed. I think in recent history the usual way peace has been achieved has been through a lot of killing. Usually it's so much killing that one side capitulates or is virtually eliminated. See: European colonization, WW1, WW2, Chinese civil war/revolution, US civil war, Vietnam war, etc.

When there is not a lot of killing (or not so much killing that there is no capitulation) you get forever wars: see North/South Korea, Israel/Palestine.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #762 on: October 01, 2024, 02:03:20 PM »
Well, Israel has begun another ground invasion of Lebanon.  Iran has been launching waves of missiles into Israel in retaliation.  It seems likely that Israel will perform airstrikes in Iran.  Seems like the US has completely lost any control they had of Israel.  Fuck.

The US should not seek to control Israel. The US should be joining Israel in eliminating Hezbollah and Hamas (both designated terrorist organizations by the US). The US should also seek an authorization for use of military force against the IRGC which is also a designated terrorist organization - although this may be covered under the Sept. 11 AUMF.

I'm on board with that, provided no war crimes are committed.  It's only when people fighting terrorists start acting like terrorists and wantonly killing civilians where I get upset.  These actions (beyond the obvious human costs/toll) tend to prolong and worsen conflict. Historically you can't really kill your way to peace.

Citation needed. I think in recent history the usual way peace has been achieved has been through a lot of killing. Usually it's so much killing that one side capitulates or is virtually eliminated. See: European colonization, WW1, WW2, Chinese civil war/revolution, US civil war, Vietnam war, etc.

When there is not a lot of killing (or not so much killing that there is no capitulation) you get forever wars: see North/South Korea, Israel/Palestine.

You're confusing capitulation with peace.  World War I didn't lead to peace.  It led to capitulation forcing an acceptance of ridiculous terms that were then a direct cause of WWII.  World War II lead to peace not because of the capitulation of Japan and Germany but because of the efforts made reconstructing both countries.  The US civil war didn't lead to peace because of the deaths . . . peace happened later by reintegrating the south with the north.

It's not usually the killing that leads to peace.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #763 on: October 02, 2024, 12:04:12 PM »
I don't think that peace is the goal of killing in wars.

You can kill your way to freedom, or resource acquisition.

 

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