Author Topic: Israel vs Hamas  (Read 33993 times)

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #300 on: November 14, 2023, 01:09:56 PM »

Other people can place whatever labels they wish onto others - that's just so intellectually boring, annoying, obfuscating, and disillusioning to slap a label onto someone else because you don't agree with their perspective (and usually want to "silence" them by making them seem radical and/or de-platformed).  Usually it's overblown and not even warranted. 

And yet, as easy as it is to dismiss it as "boring" and "annoying" when one person labeling another, labeling people can have real consequences. As just one example, take the Harvard students who were in those organizations that published a statement saying Israel bears responsibility for the Hamas attack. Soon after, there were trucks driving around Harvard with their faces and names, calling them anti-Semites; wealthy donors were threatening Harvard; and law firms and companies were saying they would not hire anyone associated with these organizations. But are these students really anti-Semitic? The fact is that publications within Israel blame Netanyahu and the Israeli government for failing to negotiate with Hamas over the last few years and thereby contributing to the recent atrocity. Are those publications also anti-Semitic? Are the mainstream views of Israeli leftists anti-Semitic?

No, they shouldn't be blanket labeled antisemites. The Harvard student statement assigning blame for Hamas Oct. 7 attack on "entirely" on Israel was naive. Criticizing past Israeli policy is different than accommodating Hamas which how their letter reads. I mean there is no negotiating with Hamas. The purpose of Hamas is the destruction of Israel by their own charter. I'd say the Harvard students are just young adults with a superficial view of the world and not antisemites. Organizations can hire however they like that doesn't break the law, but doxxing them publicly on trucks was bizarre.

simonsez

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #301 on: November 14, 2023, 01:51:10 PM »

Other people can place whatever labels they wish onto others - that's just so intellectually boring, annoying, obfuscating, and disillusioning to slap a label onto someone else because you don't agree with their perspective (and usually want to "silence" them by making them seem radical and/or de-platformed).  Usually it's overblown and not even warranted. 

And yet, as easy as it is to dismiss it as "boring" and "annoying" when one person labeling another, labeling people can have real consequences. As just one example, take the Harvard students who were in those organizations that published a statement saying Israel bears responsibility for the Hamas attack. Soon after, there were trucks driving around Harvard with their faces and names, calling them anti-Semites; wealthy donors were threatening Harvard; and law firms and companies were saying they would not hire anyone associated with these organizations. But are these students really anti-Semitic? The fact is that publications within Israel blame Netanyahu and the Israeli government for failing to negotiate with Hamas over the last few years and thereby contributing to the recent atrocity. Are those publications also anti-Semitic? Are the mainstream views of Israeli leftists anti-Semitic?
I meant that the hyperactive labeling tends to stall potentially productive conversations.  Of course it (the labeling) has real consequences.  I try to refrain from placing labels on others as much as possible and when that is done for a cheap out instead of listening to other perspectives, that's where I personally find it in a manner fitting with those adjectives I used.  Tribalism and pattern recognition is hardwired into the human experience for good and bad.  Personally, I'm just not that interested in character assassinations due to a difference of opinion, I view that as a strawman and detracts from progress.  This is within reason, of course.  I won't be defending any racist accusations against someone like David Duke (and thus am going to ignore his opinions) but would be pretty reserved in labeling those Harvard students in a similar manner, for example, and would prefer to listen to what they have to say and see if their arguments hold any water even if I might disagree with their thesis.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #302 on: November 14, 2023, 02:21:47 PM »
"Keep the world clean" posters at NYU.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fjacobkornbluh%2Fstatus%2F1717248176854294907&psig=AOvVaw1nRMIAb9eO6-xubbPSXNBG&ust=1699996477539000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCMi1j8TywYIDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

Pictures of hostages (of all ages) taken by Hamas are being removed worldwide.

The link seems to lead to re-tweet of a picture on twitter of a single person holding a poster that says "Let's keep the world clean" with a star of david in a trash can:


This is certainly antisemitic.

It's not one. It's all over the world. Here it is in Poland.
https://mediaproxy.snopes.com/width/1200/https://media.snopes.com/2023/10/keep_the_world_clean_warsaw.jpg

That picture was taken from this snopes.com article (https://snopes.com/fact-check/keep-the-world-clean-sign/) where the woman holding the sign clarified her meaning pretty clearly:

Quote
Marie Andersen: I'm from Norway. And I study here in Poland, but I'm here to support the Palestinian people and their rights. Hopefully there will be a free Palestine.

Journalist: So you hold this sign "Keep the world clean," I see, from Jews, yes?

Marie Andersen: No, no, no. Not Jews, of course not Jews. Freedom of religion is also a human right which we support. But we do not support the Israeli government and ethnical genocide they're doing right now to the Palestinian people. But Jews, we love everyone, we love Jews.  [...]

Journalist: So what is your poster about?

Marie Andersen: My poster is about the Israeli government.

Does it read as antisemitic after hearing what the person holding the sign says?  Upon closer inspection you can see that it is an Israeli flag in the garbage can, not the star of david . . . which changes the meaning quite a bit (and is more in line with what the woman holding the sign said).  I'm not seeing support of Hamas here, or antisemitism.

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .


The anti-semitism is everywhere:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn9D1sVERlA
This rally has many people in London who support Hamas.

Rebel News?  I'm not sure that referencing the far right 'global platform for anti-muslim ideology' (that claims one of the Proud Boys founders as a contributor) is really a reliable source of unbiased news.  If you go into any large crowd with a video camera you can find people willing to say crazy stuff.  Would you use Jordan Klepper's work to try to gain unbiased insights about the Republicans in America?

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #303 on: November 14, 2023, 02:31:58 PM »

There have been plenty of pro-Hamas rallies and support. Here's an example of a Cornell Professor calling Hamas attacks on Israeli citizens exhilarating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaDSpqi-2SM

This appears to be a video about a bearded man with a car fetish?

Ha, sorry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro1Op2Iw3tk
"Hamas has shifted the balance of power." and allowed Palestinians to breathe. A recurring theme at many rallies is that the attacks were justified over and over and over. Supporting Hamas attacks is supporting Hamas. The goal of terrorism is to change politics through fear. There is now a war where Oct 7th was retaliation and equal to Israeli actions which you later try to do by giving Israeli POW hostage counts.

If you listen to the professor's clarification, his comments seem to make more sense:
Quote
"What I was referring to is in those first few hours, when they broke through the apartheid wall, that it seemed to be a symbol of resistance, and indeed a new phase of resistance in the Palestinian struggle.  We are acutely aware of the devastation, the daily destruction and degradation caused by Israeli policies, caused by Israeli apartheid, caused by the occupation. So in that context, this act of defiance of boring across the wall was a significant symbol. It really signaled that the Palestinian will to resist had not been broken. In subsequent days, we learned of some of the horrifying realities. I want to make it clear that Hamas is a fundamentalist organization. It’s important to note that in some ways, the fundamentalism of Hamas mirrors that of Israeli leadership.

As I said in that clip, I abhor the killing of civilians. If in fact we believe in the West in the rhetoric that we spout about equality, about human rights, then we must recognize the tremendous disproportionality, the tremendous unevenness, the injustice and the hypocrisy of Western support in celebration of Israeli war crimes, and the equation of any form of Palestinian resistance with terrorism"

 - https://cornellsun.com/2023/10/16/cornell-professor-exhilarated-by-hamass-attack-defends-remark/


For clarification of my own statements, I did not give Israeli POW counts.  I gave the number of Palestinians that Israel had abducted and was holding indefinitely without cause (1100) prior to the terrorist attack that Hamas led, and certainly before any war had begun.  These abducted people are not POWs by any definition of the word.

PeteD01

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #304 on: November 14, 2023, 03:17:13 PM »
"Keep the world clean" posters at NYU.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fjacobkornbluh%2Fstatus%2F1717248176854294907&psig=AOvVaw1nRMIAb9eO6-xubbPSXNBG&ust=1699996477539000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCMi1j8TywYIDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

Pictures of hostages (of all ages) taken by Hamas are being removed worldwide.

The link seems to lead to re-tweet of a picture on twitter of a single person holding a poster that says "Let's keep the world clean" with a star of david in a trash can:


This is certainly antisemitic.

It's not one. It's all over the world. Here it is in Poland.
https://mediaproxy.snopes.com/width/1200/https://media.snopes.com/2023/10/keep_the_world_clean_warsaw.jpg

That picture was taken from this snopes.com article (https://snopes.com/fact-check/keep-the-world-clean-sign/) where the woman holding the sign clarified her meaning pretty clearly:

Quote
Marie Andersen: I'm from Norway. And I study here in Poland, but I'm here to support the Palestinian people and their rights. Hopefully there will be a free Palestine.

Journalist: So you hold this sign "Keep the world clean," I see, from Jews, yes?

Marie Andersen: No, no, no. Not Jews, of course not Jews. Freedom of religion is also a human right which we support. But we do not support the Israeli government and ethnical genocide they're doing right now to the Palestinian people. But Jews, we love everyone, we love Jews.  [...]

Journalist: So what is your poster about?

Marie Andersen: My poster is about the Israeli government.

Does it read as antisemitic after hearing what the person holding the sign says?  Upon closer inspection you can see that it is an Israeli flag in the garbage can, not the star of david . . . which changes the meaning quite a bit (and is more in line with what the woman holding the sign said).  I'm not seeing support of Hamas here, or antisemitism.

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .

How dense does one have to be not to recognize that the stylized depiction of the Israeli flag in a garbage can, as seen on the sign, is a pictogram that depicts Hamas ideology and objectives in a nutshell. I would not be surprised for the symbol to show up internationally.

Antisemitism today, particularly in the Muslim world and in parts of the left, typically comes along as anti-Zionism and anti-Israel propaganda.

Hamas and other enemies of Israel have engineered the fusion of anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism over decades because they recognized that latent western antisemitism can be activated and instrumentalized by anti-Israel propaganda activity.

The result is a fusion of western (cultural and religious) antisemitism, which doesn't really have that much traction in the Muslim world, with anti-Israel sentiments (fed by all kinds of leftist anti-imperialist and whatnot ideas) shared among significant parts of the Muslim street and the western political scene.

As a consequence, parts of the western extreme left can express their antisemitism under cover of what they perceive is legitimate criticism of Israeli policy.

And the woman is a damn idiot for not understanding that the pictogram depicting the Israeli flag in a garbage can is a skilfully executed, and easily deployable, condensed expression of Hamas ideology.

You appear to be completely out of the water here, but then you write this:

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .

If that's what you really think, you've nailed it.

These people are professionals and their business is propaganda.

Hamas and other terrorist groups have nurtured relationships with the idiotic faction of the western left (a loud minority) over decades and are quite capable in mobilizing large scale protests.

Most westerners are simply not familiar with the code. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 03:21:12 PM by PeteD01 »

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #305 on: November 14, 2023, 04:18:06 PM »
Rebel News?  I'm not sure that referencing the far right 'global platform for anti-muslim ideology' (that claims one of the Proud Boys founders as a contributor) is really a reliable source of unbiased news.  If you go into any large crowd with a video camera you can find people willing to say crazy stuff.  Would you use Jordan Klepper's work to try to gain unbiased insights about the Republicans in America?

My bad. Honestly, I didnt know what rebel news is.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 04:19:37 PM by lemonlyman »

PeteD01

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #306 on: November 14, 2023, 04:26:04 PM »
"Keep the world clean" posters at NYU.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fjacobkornbluh%2Fstatus%2F1717248176854294907&psig=AOvVaw1nRMIAb9eO6-xubbPSXNBG&ust=1699996477539000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCMi1j8TywYIDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

Pictures of hostages (of all ages) taken by Hamas are being removed worldwide.

The link seems to lead to re-tweet of a picture on twitter of a single person holding a poster that says "Let's keep the world clean" with a star of david in a trash can:


This is certainly antisemitic.

It's not one. It's all over the world. Here it is in Poland.
https://mediaproxy.snopes.com/width/1200/https://media.snopes.com/2023/10/keep_the_world_clean_warsaw.jpg

That picture was taken from this snopes.com article (https://snopes.com/fact-check/keep-the-world-clean-sign/) where the woman holding the sign clarified her meaning pretty clearly:

Quote
Marie Andersen: I'm from Norway. And I study here in Poland, but I'm here to support the Palestinian people and their rights. Hopefully there will be a free Palestine.

Journalist: So you hold this sign "Keep the world clean," I see, from Jews, yes?

Marie Andersen: No, no, no. Not Jews, of course not Jews. Freedom of religion is also a human right which we support. But we do not support the Israeli government and ethnical genocide they're doing right now to the Palestinian people. But Jews, we love everyone, we love Jews.  [...]

Journalist: So what is your poster about?

Marie Andersen: My poster is about the Israeli government.

Does it read as antisemitic after hearing what the person holding the sign says?  Upon closer inspection you can see that it is an Israeli flag in the garbage can, not the star of david . . . which changes the meaning quite a bit (and is more in line with what the woman holding the sign said).  I'm not seeing support of Hamas here, or antisemitism.

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .

How dense does one have to be not to recognize that the stylized depiction of the Israeli flag in a garbage can, as seen on the sign, is a pictogram that depicts Hamas ideology and objectives in a nutshell. I would not be surprised for the symbol to show up internationally.

Antisemitism today, particularly in the Muslim world and in parts of the left, typically comes along as anti-Zionism and anti-Israel propaganda.

Hamas and other enemies of Israel have engineered the fusion of anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism over decades because they recognized that latent western antisemitism can be activated and instrumentalized by anti-Israel propaganda activity.

The result is a fusion of western (cultural and religious) antisemitism, which doesn't really have that much traction in the Muslim world, with anti-Israel sentiments (fed by all kinds of leftist anti-imperialist and whatnot ideas) shared among significant parts of the Muslim street and the western political scene.

As a consequence, parts of the western extreme left can express their antisemitism under cover of what they perceive is legitimate criticism of Israeli policy.

And the woman is a damn idiot for not understanding that the pictogram depicting the Israeli flag in a garbage can is a skilfully executed, and easily deployable, condensed expression of Hamas ideology.

You appear to be completely out of the water here, but then you write this:

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .

If that's what you really think, you've nailed it.

These people are professionals and their business is propaganda.

Hamas and other terrorist groups have nurtured relationships with the idiotic faction of the western left (a loud minority) over decades and are quite capable in mobilizing large scale protests.

Most westerners are simply not familiar with the code.

For real. And very good at getting others in the west to defend and excuse camouflaged radical ideals.

And they even get people to disseminate their propaganda bundled with instructions how to deny/obfuscate/hide etc. the intended message.

Don't become a propaganda asset for terrorists.

Do not go on the defensive when propaganda is pointed out unless you understand what you are talking about.

These are professionally run political operations and there is zero chance getting it right without knowing what you are talking about.

Do not post material you do not understand unless it is explicitly for the purpose of clarification.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 04:32:37 PM by PeteD01 »

snic

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #307 on: November 14, 2023, 09:36:14 PM »
"Keep the world clean" posters at NYU.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fjacobkornbluh%2Fstatus%2F1717248176854294907&psig=AOvVaw1nRMIAb9eO6-xubbPSXNBG&ust=1699996477539000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCMi1j8TywYIDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

Pictures of hostages (of all ages) taken by Hamas are being removed worldwide.

The link seems to lead to re-tweet of a picture on twitter of a single person holding a poster that says "Let's keep the world clean" with a star of david in a trash can:


This is certainly antisemitic.

It's not one. It's all over the world. Here it is in Poland.
https://mediaproxy.snopes.com/width/1200/https://media.snopes.com/2023/10/keep_the_world_clean_warsaw.jpg

That picture was taken from this snopes.com article (https://snopes.com/fact-check/keep-the-world-clean-sign/) where the woman holding the sign clarified her meaning pretty clearly:

Quote
Marie Andersen: I'm from Norway. And I study here in Poland, but I'm here to support the Palestinian people and their rights. Hopefully there will be a free Palestine.

Journalist: So you hold this sign "Keep the world clean," I see, from Jews, yes?

Marie Andersen: No, no, no. Not Jews, of course not Jews. Freedom of religion is also a human right which we support. But we do not support the Israeli government and ethnical genocide they're doing right now to the Palestinian people. But Jews, we love everyone, we love Jews.  [...]

Journalist: So what is your poster about?

Marie Andersen: My poster is about the Israeli government.

Does it read as antisemitic after hearing what the person holding the sign says?  Upon closer inspection you can see that it is an Israeli flag in the garbage can, not the star of david . . . which changes the meaning quite a bit (and is more in line with what the woman holding the sign said).  I'm not seeing support of Hamas here, or antisemitism.

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .

How dense does one have to be not to recognize that the stylized depiction of the Israeli flag in a garbage can, as seen on the sign, is a pictogram that depicts Hamas ideology and objectives in a nutshell. I would not be surprised for the symbol to show up internationally.

Antisemitism today, particularly in the Muslim world and in parts of the left, typically comes along as anti-Zionism and anti-Israel propaganda.

Hamas and other enemies of Israel have engineered the fusion of anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism over decades because they recognized that latent western antisemitism can be activated and instrumentalized by anti-Israel propaganda activity.

The result is a fusion of western (cultural and religious) antisemitism, which doesn't really have that much traction in the Muslim world, with anti-Israel sentiments (fed by all kinds of leftist anti-imperialist and whatnot ideas) shared among significant parts of the Muslim street and the western political scene.

As a consequence, parts of the western extreme left can express their antisemitism under cover of what they perceive is legitimate criticism of Israeli policy.

And the woman is a damn idiot for not understanding that the pictogram depicting the Israeli flag in a garbage can is a skilfully executed, and easily deployable, condensed expression of Hamas ideology.

You appear to be completely out of the water here, but then you write this:

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .

If that's what you really think, you've nailed it.

These people are professionals and their business is propaganda.

Hamas and other terrorist groups have nurtured relationships with the idiotic faction of the western left (a loud minority) over decades and are quite capable in mobilizing large scale protests.

Most westerners are simply not familiar with the code.

I find this stance absolutely bizarre and detached from reality. First, are you really accusing some Norwegian woman of intentionally "depicting Hamas ideology and objectives" on her barely kindergarten-level sign? Do you really think she wants to wipe Jews out of Israel? Do you really think she is a member of some world-wide anti-Semitic cabal? Where is the evidence for that - and against the obvious alternative, which is that she made an insensitive and amateurish sign? Which is precisely the reality that her post-hoc explanation supports. Is there some particular reason why you don't take her at her word?

Second, your statement that "Hamas and other enemies of Israel have engineered the fusion of anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism over decades..." is downright insulting. You are saying not only that one cannot express anti-Israel sentiment without also being anti-Semitic, but also that critics of Israel are the gullible dupes of Hamas. This is nonsensical. Hamas is not some sort of powerful worldwide force driving public opinion*. Public opinion on Israel derives from what we see and hear of Israel's actions, not from what Hamas has to say.

(*If you need more convincing on this point, just watch the interview of a Hamas leader in which he gets frustrated at the line of questioning, "how do you justify killing civilians as they sleep?" and walks out. This dazzling example of public relations brilliance is an example of Hamas' supposedly powerful ability to drive worldwide anti-Semitic public opinion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAva9VM38uA)

Finally, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that Hamas has "nurtured relationships with the ... Western left"? Which Western leftists have aligned themselves explicitly with Hamas?

dang1

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #308 on: November 14, 2023, 11:36:33 PM »
hummus keeps taking potshots at the Israeli military, not surrendering... oh well

ATtiny85

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #309 on: November 15, 2023, 05:35:43 AM »

I find this stance absolutely bizarre and detached from reality. First, are you really accusing some Norwegian woman of intentionally "depicting Hamas ideology and objectives" on her barely kindergarten-level sign? Do you really think she wants to wipe Jews out of Israel? Do you really think she is a member of some world-wide anti-Semitic cabal? Where is the evidence for that - and against the obvious alternative, which is that she made an insensitive and amateurish sign? Which is precisely the reality that her post-hoc explanation supports. Is there some particular reason why you don't take her at her word?
...

Yeah, I am with you, the position is bizarre. I still believe the poster is compensating for something. But at the very least this automatic labeling of everything as anti-Semitic is quite harmful hate speech. I think the establishment of Israel and the continued protection they have been given for decades is a horrible thing (though I readily admit that however we drew the lines in the sand was going to cause continuous conflict.) If I was going to make a sign I might have drawn it up a little differently and used different phrasing. If I was wording a sign in something other than my mother tongue it is possible that it would read weirdly.

Hamas is also a horrible group and hopefully "we" can quench them without too many of my tax dollars being burned up or killing too many innocents.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #310 on: November 15, 2023, 06:53:44 AM »

I find this stance absolutely bizarre and detached from reality. First, are you really accusing some Norwegian woman of intentionally "depicting Hamas ideology and objectives" on her barely kindergarten-level sign? Do you really think she wants to wipe Jews out of Israel? Do you really think she is a member of some world-wide anti-Semitic cabal? Where is the evidence for that - and against the obvious alternative, which is that she made an insensitive and amateurish sign? Which is precisely the reality that her post-hoc explanation supports. Is there some particular reason why you don't take her at her word?
...

Yeah, I am with you, the position is bizarre. I still believe the poster is compensating for something. But at the very least this automatic labeling of everything as anti-Semitic is quite harmful hate speech. I think the establishment of Israel and the continued protection they have been given for decades is a horrible thing (though I readily admit that however we drew the lines in the sand was going to cause continuous conflict.) If I was going to make a sign I might have drawn it up a little differently and used different phrasing. If I was wording a sign in something other than my mother tongue it is possible that it would read weirdly.

Hamas is also a horrible group and hopefully "we" can quench them without too many of my tax dollars being burned up or killing too many innocents.
Bottom line:

We are the customers and virtue signals are the product, regardless of which "side" we are promoting.

This is true even if we are merely promoting peace in an attempt to get all the credit while saying nothing controversial. Unfortunately, choosing this path requires us to ignore the root causes which make theocracies built around the concept of ethnic superiority incompatible with peace. If we understood that religious governments always mean war, we would understand that there is no hope for the Israelis and Palestinians to stop killing each other's children and to live in peace like secular people. There's no status to gain from promoting such a dour outlook, which is why nobody does it. What that says about us is the most interesting facet of this conflict.

PeteD01

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #311 on: November 15, 2023, 07:30:38 AM »
"Keep the world clean" posters at NYU.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fjacobkornbluh%2Fstatus%2F1717248176854294907&psig=AOvVaw1nRMIAb9eO6-xubbPSXNBG&ust=1699996477539000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCMi1j8TywYIDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

Pictures of hostages (of all ages) taken by Hamas are being removed worldwide.

The link seems to lead to re-tweet of a picture on twitter of a single person holding a poster that says "Let's keep the world clean" with a star of david in a trash can:


This is certainly antisemitic.

It's not one. It's all over the world. Here it is in Poland.
https://mediaproxy.snopes.com/width/1200/https://media.snopes.com/2023/10/keep_the_world_clean_warsaw.jpg

That picture was taken from this snopes.com article (https://snopes.com/fact-check/keep-the-world-clean-sign/) where the woman holding the sign clarified her meaning pretty clearly:

Quote
Marie Andersen: I'm from Norway. And I study here in Poland, but I'm here to support the Palestinian people and their rights. Hopefully there will be a free Palestine.

Journalist: So you hold this sign "Keep the world clean," I see, from Jews, yes?

Marie Andersen: No, no, no. Not Jews, of course not Jews. Freedom of religion is also a human right which we support. But we do not support the Israeli government and ethnical genocide they're doing right now to the Palestinian people. But Jews, we love everyone, we love Jews.  [...]

Journalist: So what is your poster about?

Marie Andersen: My poster is about the Israeli government.

Does it read as antisemitic after hearing what the person holding the sign says?  Upon closer inspection you can see that it is an Israeli flag in the garbage can, not the star of david . . . which changes the meaning quite a bit (and is more in line with what the woman holding the sign said).  I'm not seeing support of Hamas here, or antisemitism.

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .

How dense does one have to be not to recognize that the stylized depiction of the Israeli flag in a garbage can, as seen on the sign, is a pictogram that depicts Hamas ideology and objectives in a nutshell. I would not be surprised for the symbol to show up internationally.

Antisemitism today, particularly in the Muslim world and in parts of the left, typically comes along as anti-Zionism and anti-Israel propaganda.

Hamas and other enemies of Israel have engineered the fusion of anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism over decades because they recognized that latent western antisemitism can be activated and instrumentalized by anti-Israel propaganda activity.

The result is a fusion of western (cultural and religious) antisemitism, which doesn't really have that much traction in the Muslim world, with anti-Israel sentiments (fed by all kinds of leftist anti-imperialist and whatnot ideas) shared among significant parts of the Muslim street and the western political scene.

As a consequence, parts of the western extreme left can express their antisemitism under cover of what they perceive is legitimate criticism of Israeli policy.

And the woman is a damn idiot for not understanding that the pictogram depicting the Israeli flag in a garbage can is a skilfully executed, and easily deployable, condensed expression of Hamas ideology.

You appear to be completely out of the water here, but then you write this:

Unless it's being used to purposely mislead people about intent . . .

If that's what you really think, you've nailed it.

These people are professionals and their business is propaganda.

Hamas and other terrorist groups have nurtured relationships with the idiotic faction of the western left (a loud minority) over decades and are quite capable in mobilizing large scale protests.

Most westerners are simply not familiar with the code.

I find this stance absolutely bizarre and detached from reality. First, are you really accusing some Norwegian woman of intentionally "depicting Hamas ideology and objectives" on her barely kindergarten-level sign? Do you really think she wants to wipe Jews out of Israel? Do you really think she is a member of some world-wide anti-Semitic cabal? Where is the evidence for that - and against the obvious alternative, which is that she made an insensitive and amateurish sign? Which is precisely the reality that her post-hoc explanation supports.


Look, antisemites are dumb as fuck almost as a rule and that has never excused anything.
So the fact that she doesn't have any idea what she is doing fits perfectly.
She probably got the idea for her poster from something she saw online and that's where she likely also picked up on how important deniability is, because in many countries Hamas or antisemitic propaganda is illegal.


Is there some particular reason why you don't take her at her word?

I am taking her by her word and give her the benefit of the doubt, that's why I called her an idiot and not a liar:

And the woman is a damn idiot for not understanding that the pictogram depicting the Israeli flag in a garbage can is a skilfully executed, and easily deployable, condensed expression of Hamas ideology.


Second, your statement that "Hamas and other enemies of Israel have engineered the fusion of anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism over decades..." is downright insulting. You are saying not only that one cannot express anti-Israel sentiment without also being anti-Semitic, but also that critics of Israel are the gullible dupes of Hamas.

Indeed, it is virtually impossible to express anti-Israel sentiment without being antisemitic.
You are confusing legitimate criticism of Israeli politics, policies and other actions with "anti-Israel sentiment", which basically means dislike/hate of Israel and is not even criticism let alone legitimate.

Anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment fed by and cloaked in anti-imperialist rhetoric is the shape in which left antisemitism has traveled for more than sixty years - and many people can't or won't see it or understand it.

Here is a view from a prominent leftist who has managed to classify Hamas and Hezbollah as "left" - which is plainly absurd:

Judith Butler and the politics of hypocrisy

Judith Butler’s view that “understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important.” While Butler also emphasized that there were “certain dimensions of both movements” that were problematic and that she herself was firmly committed to “non-violent politics,” she also eventually clarified that in her view, Hamas and Hezbollah qualified as “left” because “they oppose colonialism and imperialism.”

https://www.jpost.com/blogs/the-warped-mirror/judith-butler-and-the-politics-of-hypocrisy-365385

And here is a more detailed outline of the problem:

Far-Left Antisemitism
By: Jakob Guhl
12 July 2023

As many on the far left[1] self-identify as anti-racist, far-left antisemitism[2] may sound like a contradiction in terms. Indeed, the antisemitism we most commonly see on the far left is different to what we find on the far right or in Islamist extremist contexts; it is rarely explicitly hateful, dehumanising or violent. At the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, much of our analysis of antisemitism online has therefore focussed on its more extreme manifestations.

https://www.isdglobal.org/explainers/far-left-antisemitism/


This is nonsensical. Hamas is not some sort of powerful worldwide force driving public opinion*. Public opinion on Israel derives from what we see and hear of Israel's actions, not from what Hamas has to say.

I think you are unfamiliar with how illegal terrorist actors like Hamas operate in the left propaganda space.
It used to be done through influencing academics, infiltrating student groups etc. either by operatives or sympathizers.
Today, of course, the internet plays an outsize role in influencing the information space and getting idiots, like the woman mentioned above, propagating Hamas ideology in the public space.
Make no mistake, these are organized efforts that are largely clandestine until they surface.


(*If you need more convincing on this point, just watch the interview of a Hamas leader in which he gets frustrated at the line of questioning, "how do you justify killing civilians as they sleep?" and walks out. This dazzling example of public relations brilliance is an example of Hamas' supposedly powerful ability to drive worldwide anti-Semitic public opinion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAva9VM38uA)

Hamas does not have an ideological leg to stand on. Under the surface of, extremely strained, respectability lies an Islamist death cult prone to extreme violence similar to Isis.
So of course, he has to walk out because it is BS all the way down and could never be justified.


Finally, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that Hamas has "nurtured relationships with the ... Western left"? Which Western leftists have aligned themselves explicitly with Hamas?

It is often not explicit endorsement of Hamas or other groups but comes along as anti-Israel/Zionist sentiment, although sometimes it is explicit like with Judith Butler. (see above)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 09:56:27 AM by PeteD01 »

PeteD01

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #312 on: November 15, 2023, 07:34:56 AM »

I find this stance absolutely bizarre and detached from reality. First, are you really accusing some Norwegian woman of intentionally "depicting Hamas ideology and objectives" on her barely kindergarten-level sign? Do you really think she wants to wipe Jews out of Israel? Do you really think she is a member of some world-wide anti-Semitic cabal? Where is the evidence for that - and against the obvious alternative, which is that she made an insensitive and amateurish sign? Which is precisely the reality that her post-hoc explanation supports. Is there some particular reason why you don't take her at her word?
...

Yeah, I am with you, the position is bizarre. I still believe the poster is compensating for something. But at the very least this automatic labeling of everything as anti-Semitic is quite harmful hate speech. I think the establishment of Israel and the continued protection they have been given for decades is a horrible thing (though I readily admit that however we drew the lines in the sand was going to cause continuous conflict.) If I was going to make a sign I might have drawn it up a little differently and used different phrasing. If I was wording a sign in something other than my mother tongue it is possible that it would read weirdly.

Hamas is also a horrible group and hopefully "we" can quench them without too many of my tax dollars being burned up or killing too many innocents.

Who thinks Israel is going away?

Thinks? No. But I have been hopeful for several decades that it goes away. It’s a negative mark on the world.

I'd appreciate if you could elaborate a bit on this, particularly on the specifics of how to make Israel go away and, of course, what you believe what makes Israel a negative mark on the world.

I'm still waiting for an answer - or is there nothing to see here?

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #313 on: November 15, 2023, 07:38:31 AM »
I read a blog post by Josh Marshall about this yesterday (http://r.mail.talkingpointsmemo.com/mk/cl/f/sh/6rqJfgq8dIR6T2Q58GJb7vOvnAh/hn44RpzWmpxt), and one of the things he says in it is that college students say dumb shit and he doesn’t give it a lot of weight. However, his main point is that this group, National Students for Justice in Palestine, immediately after the October 7 attack, started a massive campaign supporting Hamas:

Quote
On the day after the October 7th attacks, the organization issued this statement as either their first or one of their first statements on the massacres in southern Israel.
 
“Today, we witness a historic win for the Palestinian resistance: across land, air, and sea, our people have broken down the artificial barriers of the Zionist entity, taking with it the facade of an impenetrable settler colony and reminding each of us that total return and liberation to Palestine is near. Catching the enemy completely by surprise, the Palestinian resistance has captured over a dozen settlements surrounding Gaza along with many occupation soldiers and military vehicles. This is what it means to Free Palestine: not just slogans and rallies, but armed confrontation with the oppressors.”

Make of that what you will. Read more at the link …


GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #314 on: November 15, 2023, 09:04:13 AM »
Joining the more than 4500 Palestinian children killed so far in this war of retribution we have evidence of even more little terrorists killed by the surgical precision of Israeli air strikes:
      




An Israeli flag in a trash can is pretty disturbing too though.  You certainly wouldn't want to be caught inadvertently getting sucked into messaging that supports a group who wantonly kills innocent civilians.

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #315 on: November 15, 2023, 09:09:06 AM »
Dude. Your point doesn't connect where you think it does. The only thing you're doing here is getting the Mods on your case.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #316 on: November 15, 2023, 09:13:27 AM »
Dude. Your point doesn't connect where you think it does. The only thing you're doing here is getting the Mods on your case.

My point is this:

Hamas' terrorist attack was terrible.  They killed many civilians.  I don't support their actions at all.

Israel's attacks on civilians in Gaza is terrible.  They are killing many more civilians.  I don't support their actions at all.



Criticism of Israel's government is often being painted as antisemitism though.  That's fucked up.  And it's enabling them to continue to make the pictures you see above.

EvenSteven

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #317 on: November 15, 2023, 09:14:44 AM »
Dude. Your point doesn't connect where you think it does. The only thing you're doing here is getting the Mods on your case.

My point is this:

Hamas' terrorist attack was terrible.  They killed many civilians.  I don't support their actions at all.

Israel's attacks on civilians in Gaza is terrible.  They are killing many more civilians.  I don't support their actions at all.



Criticism of Israel's government is often being painted as antisemitism though.  That's fucked up.  And it's enabling them to continue to make the pictures you see above.

For what it's worth, that is exactly how your post connected with me.

sonofsven

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #318 on: November 15, 2023, 09:28:05 AM »
For decades there has been a successful effort to link any criticism of the Israeli government with anti semitism.
It doesn't have to be true to be successful.
And before anyone says I "learned that from the Internet", I've noticed it since before there was an internet.
Of course it's hypocritical, but so is much of foreign policy, which is essentially "virtue signalling" by nation.

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #319 on: November 15, 2023, 09:30:56 AM »
Dude. Your point doesn't connect where you think it does. The only thing you're doing here is getting the Mods on your case.

My point is this:

Hamas' terrorist attack was terrible.  They killed many civilians.  I don't support their actions at all.

Israel's attacks on civilians in Gaza is terrible.  They are killing many more civilians.  I don't support their actions at all.



Criticism of Israel's government is often being painted as antisemitism though.  That's fucked up.  And it's enabling them to continue to make the pictures you see above.

What's enabling them to continue attacking Gaza is having a neighbor whose definition for existence is their destruction. If Hamas is not removed, attacks will continue on Israeli citizens until one or the other collapses. How is Hamas removed from power in your peaceful fantasy of the world? Everyone agrees that no citizens should be killed, but how is Hamas removed after Oct. 7? Criticizing idiots in protests is not what's the enabler.

And btw, a lot of these protests, celebrations, and antisemitic messaging started happening BEFORE Israel even responded in Gaza. Those Harvard students wrote their letter blaming Israel, not Hamas, for Oct. 7 on Oct. 8th.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #320 on: November 15, 2023, 09:51:05 AM »
Dude. Your point doesn't connect where you think it does. The only thing you're doing here is getting the Mods on your case.

My point is this:

Hamas' terrorist attack was terrible.  They killed many civilians.  I don't support their actions at all.

Israel's attacks on civilians in Gaza is terrible.  They are killing many more civilians.  I don't support their actions at all.



Criticism of Israel's government is often being painted as antisemitism though.  That's fucked up.  And it's enabling them to continue to make the pictures you see above.

What's enabling them to continue attacking Gaza is having a neighbor whose definition for existence is their destruction. If Hamas is not removed, attacks will continue on Israeli citizens until one or the other collapses. How is Hamas removed from power in your peaceful fantasy of the world? Everyone agrees that no citizens should be killed, but how is Hamas removed after Oct. 7? Criticizing idiots in protests is not what's the enabler.

Hamas will never be removed by furthering abuses of Palestinians by Israelis.  Even if every single member of Hamas was killed this is true.  Murdering someone's sister/brother/mother/father will make them hate you.  Take away their ability to work and earn money for their family, take away power and water, take away sanitation, take away their ability to leave . . . all that you're doing is building a future terrorist.  People who blow themselves up to kill you are people who hate you and have nothing else to lose.

Hamas is heavily entrenched in Gaza thanks to the past help that the Israeli government gave them (often in the form of briefcases of cash) with the stated goal of sabotaging peace talks.  Force will certainly be necessary to remove them.  But the overly heavy handed wanton disregard for safety of civilians that the Israeli government is currently using is doomed to cause many more anti-Israeli terrorists in the future.  Protecting civilians while hunting out Hamas is not going to be easy, and will certainly carry greater risks for soldiers.  But it's the only moral path for a non-terrorist government, and long term it will result in much greater safety for Israelis.

Stopping the Israeli led ethnic cleansing currently going on in the West Bank (which has nothing to do with Hamas) would also go a long way towards proving that Israel is not simply an oppressive regime out to hurt Palestinians and would pay dividends long term.


And btw, a lot of these protests, celebrations, and antisemitic messaging started happening BEFORE Israel even responded in Gaza. Those Harvard students wrote their letter blaming Israel, not Hamas, for Oct. 7 on Oct. 8th.

Not surprising that there was criticism of Israel prior to the attacks.  Israel has been deliberately provoking the Palestinians since Netanyahu created his extreme right coalition.  Abuses and murders of Palestinians by Israelis were steadily on the rise prior to Hamas' attack on the 7th.  This is why so many Israelis were so unhappy with their government prior to the attacks and why the government is so wildly unpopular now.

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #321 on: November 15, 2023, 10:13:46 AM »
You can go back in the past ad  infinitum to pass blame for Oct 7. But the truth is Hamas was to blame, solely,  for the deaths of those civilians and continuing to hold hostages. I wish you were right that Hamas could be removed with no civilian casualties,but I’m skeptical.


snic

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #322 on: November 15, 2023, 10:28:02 AM »


Indeed, it is virtually impossible to express anti-Israel sentiment without being antisemitic.
You are confusing legitimate criticism of Israeli politics, policies and other actions with "anti-Israel sentiment", which basically means dislike/hate of Israel and is not even criticism let alone legitimate.

Anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment fed by and cloaked in anti-imperialist rhetoric is the shape in which left antisemitism has traveled for more than sixty years - and many people can't or won't see it or understand it.

By "anti-Israel sentiment," I mean nothing more than criticism of Israeli "politics, policies and other actions" - and even more specifically, its policies and actions directed towards Palestinians. And that is exactly how I read anti-Israel commentary from the vast majority of people in the West who argue on behalf of Palestinians and how Israel has treated them. My observation is that the very first argument raised against those commentators is typically "you're an anti-Semite." That does nothing more than conveniently shut the argument down and unfairly slander the opponent. In the vast majority of cases, there is zero evidence for anti-Semitism other than that the commentator said something to criticize Israel.

Quote
Here is a view from a prominent leftist who has managed to classify Hamas and Hezbollah as "left" - which is plainly absurd:

Judith Butler and the politics of hypocrisy

Judith Butler’s view that “understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important.” While Butler also emphasized that there were “certain dimensions of both movements” that were problematic and that she herself was firmly committed to “non-violent politics,” she also eventually clarified that in her view, Hamas and Hezbollah qualified as “left” because “they oppose colonialism and imperialism.”

https://www.jpost.com/blogs/the-warped-mirror/judith-butler-and-the-politics-of-hypocrisy-365385

And here is a more detailed outline of the problem:

Far-Left Antisemitism
By: Jakob Guhl
12 July 2023

As many on the far left[1] self-identify as anti-racist, far-left antisemitism[2] may sound like a contradiction in terms. Indeed, the antisemitism we most commonly see on the far left is different to what we find on the far right or in Islamist extremist contexts; it is rarely explicitly hateful, dehumanising or violent. At the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, much of our analysis of antisemitism online has therefore focussed on its more extreme manifestations.

https://www.isdglobal.org/explainers/far-left-antisemitism/

Calling Hamas leftist is clearly an error, given that Hamas is a fundamentalist authoritarian organization. Such statements are outliers, not representative of the mainstream left or far left progressives. The left does stand for anti-imperialism, and it's worth having a conversation about whether Israel has been acting like an imperial power. But above you explicitly said that that sentiment is just a "cloak" for anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment, which you equate with anti-Semitism. In other words, you shut the conversation down with an accusation of anti-Semitism before it even begins. Great way to change the subject to avoid addressing how Israel's oppressive (and perhaps imperialistic) actions could contribute to Palestinians' violent uprisings.

Quote
I think you are unfamiliar with how illegal terrorist actors like Hamas operate in the left propaganda space.
It used to be done through influencing academics, infiltrating student groups etc. either by operatives or sympathizers.
Today, of course, the internet plays an outsize role in influencing the information space and getting idiots, like the woman mentioned above, propagating Hamas ideology in the public space.
Make no mistake, these are organized efforts that are largely clandestine until they surface.

I see. So they are so clandestine, that neither you nor I can see them. But you know they exist despite having zero evidence. Got it.

Quote
Finally, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that Hamas has "nurtured relationships with the ... Western left"? Which Western leftists have aligned themselves explicitly with Hamas?

It is often not explicit endorsement of Hamas or other groups but comes along as anti-Israel/Zionist sentiment, although sometimes it is explicit like with Judith Butler. (see above)

I see. So no left wing groups in the west explicitly endorse Hamas (other than a few fringe figures like Butler), but because they say bad things about Israel, it must be because Hamas has driven them to it. Got it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 10:30:02 AM by snic »

EvenSteven

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #323 on: November 15, 2023, 10:35:15 AM »
You can go back in the past ad  infinitum to pass blame for Oct 7. But the truth is Hamas was to blame, solely,  for the deaths of those civilians and continuing to hold hostages. I wish you were right that Hamas could be removed with no civilian casualties,but I’m skeptical.

This wasn't asserted by GuitarStv. There will certainly be more civilian casualties of both Palestinians and Israelis, but the continued abuses of those in both Gaza and the West bank are making Israel less safe and secure, not more. It's not only that it would be more humane to stop the violence against civilians, it would be more effective is keeping Israel safe from violent extremist terrorists like Hamas.

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #324 on: November 15, 2023, 10:49:39 AM »
You can go back in the past ad  infinitum to pass blame for Oct 7. But the truth is Hamas was to blame, solely,  for the deaths of those civilians and continuing to hold hostages. I wish you were right that Hamas could be removed with no civilian casualties,but I’m skeptical.

This wasn't asserted by GuitarStv. There will certainly be more civilian casualties of both Palestinians and Israelis, but the continued abuses of those in both Gaza and the West bank are making Israel less safe and secure, not more. It's not only that it would be more humane to stop the violence against civilians, it would be more effective is keeping Israel safe from violent extremist terrorists like Hamas.

He said "heavy handed wanton disregard" for the safety of civilians in Gaza. What is an appropriate, moral casualty count? And with Israel's military capability combined with Hamas's history of using civilians for their own defense, how is it not higher with this wanton disregard?

Personally, I believe both populations are more safe in the future with Hamas gone or rendered extremely ineffective in pursuing their stated goals.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 10:59:40 AM by lemonlyman »

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #325 on: November 15, 2023, 11:03:35 AM »

Stopping the Israeli led ethnic cleansing currently going on in the West Bank (which has nothing to do with Hamas) would also go a long way towards proving that Israel is not simply an oppressive regime out to hurt Palestinians and would pay dividends long term.


I don't agree with a lot of what you said, but I do agree with this.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #326 on: November 15, 2023, 11:22:36 AM »
You can go back in the past ad  infinitum to pass blame for Oct 7. But the truth is Hamas was to blame, solely,  for the deaths of those civilians and continuing to hold hostages. I wish you were right that Hamas could be removed with no civilian casualties,but I’m skeptical.

This wasn't asserted by GuitarStv. There will certainly be more civilian casualties of both Palestinians and Israelis, but the continued abuses of those in both Gaza and the West bank are making Israel less safe and secure, not more. It's not only that it would be more humane to stop the violence against civilians, it would be more effective is keeping Israel safe from violent extremist terrorists like Hamas.

He said "heavy handed wanton disregard" for the safety of civilians in Gaza. What is an appropriate, moral casualty count? And with Israel's military capability combined with Hamas's history of using civilians for their own defense, how is it not higher with this wanton disregard?

Absolutely, there will be civilian casualties in any ground invasion of a densely populated area.  The acceptable number of civilian deaths is as few as possible.  Israel has made little visible effort in this regard - prioritizing speed and dead members of Hamas over civilian casualties.

The airstrikes being performed are obviously not surgical, and civilians casualties are being completely ignored by the Israeli military.  To give some idea how reckless things are . . . Israel dropped 6000 bombs on Gaza (a small chunk of land about twice the size of Washington DC) in the first six days of the war.  In the war against ISIS covering both Syria and Iraq, the international coalition dropped about 2500 bombs each month.  There's no way that you can make a reasonable argument that every Israeli airstrike is carefully planned to prevent civilian casualties.  And the dead and wounded numbers of Palestinian civilians bears this out.

This doesn't even cover the way that Israel has completely ignored the needs of the people in hospitals trying to operate without fuel, supplies, or clean water.  It completely ignores the starvation, thirst, and shelter needs of civilians able bodied enough to flee the bombs falling from the sky.  Israel has operated with very little concern for the welfare of Palestinians - and this has caused a lot of the backlash that they're seeing around the world.  It looks less like defense and more like revenge.  What do you think the odds are for these newborns who had to be taken out of incubators due to lack of power from generators?



Personally, I believe both populations are more safe in the future with Hamas gone or rendered extremely ineffective in pursuing their stated goals.

On this, we agree.  Where we differ is that I don't think that the way Israel is currently going about removing Hamas will cause them to be gone or rendered extremely ineffective for more than the very short term.  At best they are creating a new generation of terrorists who hate them and will attack again - either under the flag of Hamas or another.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 11:54:19 AM by GuitarStv »

PeteD01

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #327 on: November 15, 2023, 11:55:23 AM »


Indeed, it is virtually impossible to express anti-Israel sentiment without being antisemitic.
You are confusing legitimate criticism of Israeli politics, policies and other actions with "anti-Israel sentiment", which basically means dislike/hate of Israel and is not even criticism let alone legitimate.

Anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment fed by and cloaked in anti-imperialist rhetoric is the shape in which left antisemitism has traveled for more than sixty years - and many people can't or won't see it or understand it.

By "anti-Israel sentiment," I mean nothing more than criticism of Israeli "politics, policies and other actions" - and even more specifically, its policies and actions directed towards Palestinians. And that is exactly how I read anti-Israel commentary from the vast majority of people in the West who argue on behalf of Palestinians and how Israel has treated them.

That is patently absurd. You are conflating the attitude "anti-Israel sentiment" with criticism of Israeli "politics, policies and other actions".

I'd suggest that you work on that a bit because this is pretty much the line where legitimate criticism of Israel politics and actions is on one side and a diffuse animosity against Israel on the other.

And to repeat: anti-Israel sentiment is absolutely not the same as reasoned criticism.
I give you an example: if I disagree with a US policy and criticize it severely, which happens quite a lot, it does not mean that I am engaging in anti-Americanism - in fact, in some circumstances it may even be considered patriotic, particularly if the criticism is constructive.

Considering criticism of a country an expression of anti-country sentiment is actually an authoritarian trope to denigrate the political opposition.
Interestingly, being accused of antisemitism as a response to reasoned criticism is actually an authoritarian move designed to shut down the discussion and is more likely than not coming from the Israeli right.
So you need to clean this confusion up because you cannot proclaim not to comprehend the difference between a negative attitude towards a country and reasoned criticism, and then, a few paragraphs down, argue the opposite:


My observation is that the very first argument raised against those commentators is typically "you're an anti-Semite." That does nothing more than conveniently shut the argument down and unfairly slander the opponent. In the vast majority of cases, there is zero evidence for anti-Semitism other than that the commentator said something to criticize Israel.

See how you made a 180 degree turn and are now insisting that there is a big difference between antisemitism (an attitude that includes anti-Israel sentiment) and criticism of Israel.

It is plainly illogical.


Quote
Here is a view from a prominent leftist who has managed to classify Hamas and Hezbollah as "left" - which is plainly absurd:

Judith Butler and the politics of hypocrisy

Judith Butler’s view that “understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important.” While Butler also emphasized that there were “certain dimensions of both movements” that were problematic and that she herself was firmly committed to “non-violent politics,” she also eventually clarified that in her view, Hamas and Hezbollah qualified as “left” because “they oppose colonialism and imperialism.”

https://www.jpost.com/blogs/the-warped-mirror/judith-butler-and-the-politics-of-hypocrisy-365385

And here is a more detailed outline of the problem:

Far-Left Antisemitism
By: Jakob Guhl
12 July 2023

As many on the far left[1] self-identify as anti-racist, far-left antisemitism[2] may sound like a contradiction in terms. Indeed, the antisemitism we most commonly see on the far left is different to what we find on the far right or in Islamist extremist contexts; it is rarely explicitly hateful, dehumanising or violent. At the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, much of our analysis of antisemitism online has therefore focussed on its more extreme manifestations.

https://www.isdglobal.org/explainers/far-left-antisemitism/

Calling Hamas leftist is clearly an error, given that Hamas is a fundamentalist authoritarian organization. Such statements are outliers, not representative of the mainstream left or far left progressives. The left does stand for anti-imperialism, and it's worth having a conversation about whether Israel has been acting like an imperial power. But above you explicitly said that that sentiment is just a "cloak" for anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment, which you equate with anti-Semitism.

You must have missed this:
...
Hamas and other terrorist groups have nurtured relationships with the idiotic faction of the western left (a loud minority) over decades and are quite capable in mobilizing large scale protests.
...


I am clearly stating that we are dealing with a loud idiotic minority on the left that uses anti-imperialist discourse inappropriately; and I can guarantee you that this proposition does not in any way rule out analysis of Israeli politics with a view of possible imperialistic behavior that does not trade in false dilemmas and dichotomies.

In other words, you shut the conversation down with an accusation of anti-Semitism before it even begins. Great way to change the subject to avoid addressing how Israel's oppressive (and perhaps imperialistic) actions could contribute to Palestinians' violent uprisings.

I don't know where you got this from - I've never denied that Israel's repressive policies against Palestinians contribute to uprisings - to the contrary, these policies are major contributors in creating the conditions for terrorist recruitment and I have stated elsewhere that I consider the actions of the increasingly authoritarian Israeli government against Palestinian interests a disaster for Palestinians and the country of Israel.

Quote
I think you are unfamiliar with how illegal terrorist actors like Hamas operate in the left propaganda space.
It used to be done through influencing academics, infiltrating student groups etc. either by operatives or sympathizers.
Today, of course, the internet plays an outsize role in influencing the information space and getting idiots, like the woman mentioned above, propagating Hamas ideology in the public space.
Make no mistake, these are organized efforts that are largely clandestine until they surface.

I see. So they are so clandestine, that neither you nor I can see them. But you know they exist despite having zero evidence. Got it.

I wrote that these organized efforts are largely clandestine as the organizations involved do not advertise links to terrorist organizations - so people tend to be unaware and then are taken aback when they come out in response to an event.
I also have not said that I cannot see them - because I can, and that is why I am not surprised at the organizational level at which Hamas aligned groups were able to kick off their propaganda campaign and protests.
You can even find the information in this thread - follow the link if you want to learn something:


I read a blog post by Josh Marshall about this yesterday (http://r.mail.talkingpointsmemo.com/mk/cl/f/sh/6rqJfgq8dIR6T2Q58GJb7vOvnAh/hn44RpzWmpxt), and one of the things he says in it is that college students say dumb shit and he doesn’t give it a lot of weight. However, his main point is that this group, National Students for Justice in Palestine, immediately after the October 7 attack, started a massive campaign supporting Hamas:

Quote
On the day after the October 7th attacks, the organization issued this statement as either their first or one of their first statements on the massacres in southern Israel.
 
“Today, we witness a historic win for the Palestinian resistance: across land, air, and sea, our people have broken down the artificial barriers of the Zionist entity, taking with it the facade of an impenetrable settler colony and reminding each of us that total return and liberation to Palestine is near. Catching the enemy completely by surprise, the Palestinian resistance has captured over a dozen settlements surrounding Gaza along with many occupation soldiers and military vehicles. This is what it means to Free Palestine: not just slogans and rallies, but armed confrontation with the oppressors.”

Make of that what you will. Read more at the link …

Quote
Finally, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that Hamas has "nurtured relationships with the ... Western left"? Which Western leftists have aligned themselves explicitly with Hamas?

It is often not explicit endorsement of Hamas or other groups but comes along as anti-Israel/Zionist sentiment, although sometimes it is explicit like with Judith Butler. (see above)

I see. So no left wing groups in the west explicitly endorse Hamas (other than a few fringe figures like Butler), but because they say bad things about Israel, it must be because Hamas has driven them to it. Got it.

What?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 02:57:09 PM by PeteD01 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #328 on: November 15, 2023, 12:27:31 PM »
The 'March for Israel' in Washington DC yesterday included large crowds chanting 'No Ceasefire' along with the US house speaker - in effect a direct call for the continued deaths of Palestinian civilians trapped in Gaza.

snic

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #329 on: November 15, 2023, 03:07:34 PM »


Indeed, it is virtually impossible to express anti-Israel sentiment without being antisemitic.
You are confusing legitimate criticism of Israeli politics, policies and other actions with "anti-Israel sentiment", which basically means dislike/hate of Israel and is not even criticism let alone legitimate.

Anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment fed by and cloaked in anti-imperialist rhetoric is the shape in which left antisemitism has traveled for more than sixty years - and many people can't or won't see it or understand it.

By "anti-Israel sentiment," I mean nothing more than criticism of Israeli "politics, policies and other actions" - and even more specifically, its policies and actions directed towards Palestinians. And that is exactly how I read anti-Israel commentary from the vast majority of people in the West who argue on behalf of Palestinians and how Israel has treated them.

That is patently absurd. You are conflating the attitude "anti-Israel sentiment" with criticism of Israeli "politics, policies and other actions".

I'd suggest that you work on that a bit because this is pretty much the line where legitimate criticism of Israel politics and actions is on one side and a diffuse animosity against Israel on the other.

And to repeat: anti-Israel sentiment is absolutely not the same as reasoned criticism.
I give you an example: if I disagree with a US policy and criticize it severely, which happens quite a lot, does not mean that I am engaging in anti-Americanism - in fact, in some circumstances it may even be considered patriotic, particularly if the criticism is constructive.

Considering criticism of a country an expression of anti-country sentiment is actually an authoritarian trope to denigrate the political opposition.
Interestingly, being accused of antisemitism as a response to reasoned criticism is actually an authoritarian move designed to shut down the discussion and is more likely than not coming from the Israeli right.
So you need to clean this confusion up because you cannot proclaim not to comprehend the difference between a negative attitude towards a country and reasoned criticism, and then, a few paragraphs down, argue the opposite:


My observation is that the very first argument raised against those commentators is typically "you're an anti-Semite." That does nothing more than conveniently shut the argument down and unfairly slander the opponent. In the vast majority of cases, there is zero evidence for anti-Semitism other than that the commentator said something to criticize Israel.

See how you made a 180 degree turn and are now insisting that there is a big difference between antisemitism (an attitude that includes anti-Israel sentiment) and criticism of Israel.

It is plainly illogical.


Quote
Here is a view from a prominent leftist who has managed to classify Hamas and Hezbollah as "left" - which is plainly absurd:

Judith Butler and the politics of hypocrisy

Judith Butler’s view that “understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important.” While Butler also emphasized that there were “certain dimensions of both movements” that were problematic and that she herself was firmly committed to “non-violent politics,” she also eventually clarified that in her view, Hamas and Hezbollah qualified as “left” because “they oppose colonialism and imperialism.”

https://www.jpost.com/blogs/the-warped-mirror/judith-butler-and-the-politics-of-hypocrisy-365385

And here is a more detailed outline of the problem:

Far-Left Antisemitism
By: Jakob Guhl
12 July 2023

As many on the far left[1] self-identify as anti-racist, far-left antisemitism[2] may sound like a contradiction in terms. Indeed, the antisemitism we most commonly see on the far left is different to what we find on the far right or in Islamist extremist contexts; it is rarely explicitly hateful, dehumanising or violent. At the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, much of our analysis of antisemitism online has therefore focussed on its more extreme manifestations.

https://www.isdglobal.org/explainers/far-left-antisemitism/

Calling Hamas leftist is clearly an error, given that Hamas is a fundamentalist authoritarian organization. Such statements are outliers, not representative of the mainstream left or far left progressives. The left does stand for anti-imperialism, and it's worth having a conversation about whether Israel has been acting like an imperial power. But above you explicitly said that that sentiment is just a "cloak" for anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment, which you equate with anti-Semitism.

You must have missed this:
...
Hamas and other terrorist groups have nurtured relationships with the idiotic faction of the western left (a loud minority) over decades and are quite capable in mobilizing large scale protests.
...


I am clearly stating that we are dealing with a loud idiotic minority on the left that uses anti-imperialist discourse inappropriately; and I can guarantee you that this proposition does not in any way rule out analysis of Israeli politics with a view of possible imperialistic behavior, that does not trade in false dilemmas and dichotomies.

In other words, you shut the conversation down with an accusation of anti-Semitism before it even begins. Great way to change the subject to avoid addressing how Israel's oppressive (and perhaps imperialistic) actions could contribute to Palestinians' violent uprisings.

I don't know where you got this from - I've never denied that Israel's repressive policies against Palestinians contribute to uprisings - to the contrary, these policies are major contributors in creating the conditions for terrorist recruitment and I have stated elsewhere that I consider the actions of the increasingly authoritarian Israeli government against Palestinian interests a disaster for Palestinians and the country of Israel.

Quote
I think you are unfamiliar with how illegal terrorist actors like Hamas operate in the left propaganda space.
It used to be done through influencing academics, infiltrating student groups etc. either by operatives or sympathizers.
Today, of course, the internet plays an outsize role in influencing the information space and getting idiots, like the woman mentioned above, propagating Hamas ideology in the public space.
Make no mistake, these are organized efforts that are largely clandestine until they surface.

I see. So they are so clandestine, that neither you nor I can see them. But you know they exist despite having zero evidence. Got it.

I wrote that these organized efforts are largely clandestine as the organizations involved do not advertise links to terrorist organizations - so people tend to be unaware and then are taken aback when they come out in response to an event.
I also have not said that I cannot see them - because I can, and that is why I am not surprised at the organizational level at which Hamas aligned groups were able to kick off their propaganda campaign and protests.
You can even find the information in this thread - follow the link if you want to learn something:


I read a blog post by Josh Marshall about this yesterday (http://r.mail.talkingpointsmemo.com/mk/cl/f/sh/6rqJfgq8dIR6T2Q58GJb7vOvnAh/hn44RpzWmpxt), and one of the things he says in it is that college students say dumb shit and he doesn’t give it a lot of weight. However, his main point is that this group, National Students for Justice in Palestine, immediately after the October 7 attack, started a massive campaign supporting Hamas:

Quote
On the day after the October 7th attacks, the organization issued this statement as either their first or one of their first statements on the massacres in southern Israel.
 
“Today, we witness a historic win for the Palestinian resistance: across land, air, and sea, our people have broken down the artificial barriers of the Zionist entity, taking with it the facade of an impenetrable settler colony and reminding each of us that total return and liberation to Palestine is near. Catching the enemy completely by surprise, the Palestinian resistance has captured over a dozen settlements surrounding Gaza along with many occupation soldiers and military vehicles. This is what it means to Free Palestine: not just slogans and rallies, but armed confrontation with the oppressors.”

Make of that what you will. Read more at the link …

Quote
Finally, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that Hamas has "nurtured relationships with the ... Western left"? Which Western leftists have aligned themselves explicitly with Hamas?

It is often not explicit endorsement of Hamas or other groups but comes along as anti-Israel/Zionist sentiment, although sometimes it is explicit like with Judith Butler. (see above)

I see. So no left wing groups in the west explicitly endorse Hamas (other than a few fringe figures like Butler), but because they say bad things about Israel, it must be because Hamas has driven them to it. Got it.

What?

I'm glad to see we more or less agree that shutting down arguments with accusations of "you're anti-X" is counterproductive. Where I was coming from is my disgust with this current environment in which anyone who says anything to criticize Israel nowadays is accused of being anti-Semitic. I don't view criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic, and you say you don't either, but where we differ is in semantics, or perhaps degree. Let's take your example of criticizing American policies. Consider a Native American about 150 years ago (and maybe even one of her descendants today) who has observed all her life that the US pretty much always makes the wrong decision and always abuses and tricks and unjustifiably kills her relatives and friends. Would you be surprised that she loudly declares that she's anti-American? Holding such a view, and constantly criticizing what America does, doesn't mean that she's racist against Americans, or that she wishes Americans harm, or even that she aligns herself with those who do. It means that what America has been to her is something so awful that she feels very little other than anger and resentment towards it. Perhaps she has a right to "diffuse animosity" towards America. And no, she is not exercising some "authoritarian trope."

Now change all that from America to Israel, and I think you see why I don't see a problem with the term "anti-Israel." Of course people who've been oppressed, and who identify with those who've been oppressed, are going to say things more forcefully than a detached, "I criticize Israeli actions but am not anti-Israel." They are not going to appreciate the difference. So that is the context in which I interpret your statement, "Anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment fed by and cloaked in anti-imperialist rhetoric is the shape in which left antisemitism has traveled for more than sixty years." No, anti-Israel sentiment (and anti-Israeli imperialism) is not due to anti-Semitism (in most cases). It is a reaction to people being deeply hurt by Israel. On the left, it is a response in sympathy with the obvious ongoing losers a conflict in which people are losing their land, livelihoods and lives to a much greater economic and military power - pretty classic imperialism.

I should add here that there is no question that there are Palestinians who have deeply hurt Israelis. The scale has been nowhere near as great due to the imbalance of power, but the hurt (and fear) is real. I think the road to peace, if there is one, is going to have to involve addressing that pain on both sides, and building respect and tolerance. Unfortunately I have seen very little progress in that direction in the last 35 years or so, since I first began following the conflict.

dang1

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #330 on: November 15, 2023, 08:33:01 PM »
hummus - just surrender already, save more Palestinian lives

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #331 on: November 16, 2023, 06:53:38 AM »
Since the war has moved to a ground invasion against Hamas last week, has incremental civilian casualty counts slowed?

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #332 on: November 16, 2023, 07:17:04 AM »
Since the war has moved to a ground invasion against Hamas last week, has incremental civilian casualty counts slowed?

Not according to reported numbers.

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #333 on: November 16, 2023, 07:47:17 AM »
Since the war has moved to a ground invasion against Hamas last week, has incremental civilian casualty counts slowed?

Not according to reported numbers.

I looked at counts by week end. It's slowed a great deal. At the end of last week, counts were "more than 11,000" and today it's 11,240. This week still has 2 days. But without mass bombing because of ground units, it seems unlikely it'll continue to climb dramatically.


GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #334 on: November 16, 2023, 08:11:14 AM »
Since the war has moved to a ground invasion against Hamas last week, has incremental civilian casualty counts slowed?

Not according to reported numbers.

I looked at counts by week end. It's slowed a great deal. At the end of last week, counts were "more than 11,000" and today it's 11,240. This week still has 2 days. But without mass bombing because of ground units, it seems unlikely it'll continue to climb dramatically.



11,240 was the death toll reported Nov 13.  It hasn't been updated since (due in part to the ground invasion).

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-officials-say-harder-update-gaza-casualty-toll-health-system-buckles-2023-11-15/

FWIW, I hope that you're right.  Less indiscriminate bombing should result in fewer dead, although I guess it depends on how the Israeli army acts.

PeteD01

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #335 on: November 16, 2023, 03:05:30 PM »
I'm glad to see we more or less agree that shutting down arguments with accusations of "you're anti-X" is counterproductive. Where I was coming from is my disgust with this current environment in which anyone who says anything to criticize Israel nowadays is accused of being anti-Semitic. I don't view criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic, and you say you don't either, but where we differ is in semantics, or perhaps degree. Let's take your example of criticizing American policies. Consider a Native American about 150 years ago (and maybe even one of her descendants today) who has observed all her life that the US pretty much always makes the wrong decision and always abuses and tricks and unjustifiably kills her relatives and friends. Would you be surprised that she loudly declares that she's anti-American? Holding such a view, and constantly criticizing what America does, doesn't mean that she's racist against Americans, or that she wishes Americans harm, or even that she aligns herself with those who do. It means that what America has been to her is something so awful that she feels very little other than anger and resentment towards it. Perhaps she has a right to "diffuse animosity" towards America. And no, she is not exercising some "authoritarian trope."

I understand perfectly well why someone would develop an anti-(country of your choice) attitude and would even go so far to say that it is a normal reaction.
It is really not much more than othering of an enemy and developing a focus for the group effort - but we are talking here about politics and when one cannot transcend that stage and develop an understanding beyond the us vs them sentiment, then one is unfortunately mired in emotional politics, and things like disgust and hate become driving forces.
The politics of emotion will put you on the path of right wing extremism (and let me insert this here: if you find yourself in a protest and the person next to you holds a sign that essentially the first line of the Hamas "constitution", or a Nazi flag, you need to ask yourself how you got there) and will make you into a target of extremist propaganda.


Now change all that from America to Israel, and I think you see why I don't see a problem with the term "anti-Israel." Of course people who've been oppressed, and who identify with those who've been oppressed, are going to say things more forcefully than a detached, "I criticize Israeli actions but am not anti-Israel." They are not going to appreciate the difference. So that is the context in which I interpret your statement, "Anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment fed by and cloaked in anti-imperialist rhetoric is the shape in which left antisemitism has traveled for more than sixty years."

"Anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment fed by and cloaked in anti-imperialist rhetoric is the shape in which left antisemitism has traveled for more than sixty years."
This only applies to the last sixty years ago because prior to that extreme left antisemitism was much more out in the open.
And the anti-imperialist rhetoric just happens to provide a narrative that promotes an us (the good people) vs them (the bad people) without going into any details.



No, anti-Israel sentiment (and anti-Israeli imperialism) is not due to anti-Semitism (in most cases). It is a reaction to people being deeply hurt by Israel. On the left, it is a response in sympathy with the obvious ongoing losers a conflict in which people are losing their land, livelihoods and lives to a much greater economic and military power - pretty classic imperialism.

Antisemitic and later anti-Israel sentiment has deeper roots in time and definitely predates the creation of the state of Israel by decades - the narrative in which they are embedded has changed, that's all.


I should add here that there is no question that there are Palestinians who have deeply hurt Israelis. The scale has been nowhere near as great due to the imbalance of power, but the hurt (and fear) is real. I think the road to peace, if there is one, is going to have to involve addressing that pain on both sides, and building respect and tolerance. Unfortunately I have seen very little progress in that direction in the last 35 years or so, since I first began following the conflict.

Maybe it is time for the left to come to terms with their history and stop aligning themselves with eliminationist antisemites of the islamist flavor.
That would allow supporting the Israeli left which finds itself battling a increasingly authoritarian government intent on dismantling institutions of Israeli society.

Until that happens, the totalitarian islamofascists of Hamas and their ilk will be able to continue to block effective political action against the promoters of violence in Israel.

Being serious about doing something, instead of satisfying the personal desire to feel good for believing to be on the good side of history, most likely will require solidarity with the Israeli left and cutting off all support for islamist authoritarianism.

Here is a video from an Israeli Jew opposed to the current Israeli government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDYFroPMEqg

I suggest to investigate all these issues a bit. It's not going to be easy but starting out with analyzing the different perspectives would probably work best.

And there is really no way around that work - unless one is happy to be led around by the nose by political operatives from a whole different league.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2023, 06:19:05 PM by PeteD01 »

snic

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #336 on: November 16, 2023, 08:00:23 PM »

I understand perfectly well why someone would develop an anti-(country of your choice) attitude and would even go so far to say that it is a normal reaction.
It is really not much more than othering of an enemy and developing a focus for the group effort - but we are talking here about politics and when one cannot transcend that stage and develop an understanding beyond the us vs them sentiment, then one is unfortunately mired in emotional politics, and things like disgust and hate become driving forces.
The politics of emotion will put you on the path of right wing extremism (and let me insert this here: if you find yourself in a protest and the person next to you holds a sign that essentially the first line of the Hamas "constitution", or a Nazi flag, you need to ask yourself how you got there) and will make you into a target of extremist propaganda.

It's astonishing that such an otherwise reasonable paragraph contains a sentiment as incredibly misguided as the bolded part. That is sheer nonsense. Let's take the fight against slavery in the US. Or the world-wide fight against apartheid in South Africa. Do you really believe that these battles were fought and won without emotion? The victor in both cases ended up not being "right wing extremism", but its opposite.

I'll grant you that cooling one's emotions can be effective (c.f. the winding down of the Irish troubles), and in fact my general attitude is that it's better to negotiate than to fight. But that does not mean there is no place for emotional rhetoric, or politics guided by emotion more than reason. Appeals to reason by abolitionists went absolutely nowhere in the 100+ years prior to the civil war because the southern states were powerful enough to block any reform. That was also the case with apartheid. But in both cases, appeals to emotion made a huge difference. The Civil War was not some cool calculation by Lincoln that it was the best course of action. It was justified on emotional grounds (slavery is a sin, the union is worth fighting and dying for). With South Africa, anti-apartheid activists made the emotional case that what was happening there was wrong and the world had a responsibility to take concrete actions to end it. It would not have been surprising, during either of those conflicts, to find people on the morally superior side expressing their "disgust" and "hate".

The obvious conclusion here is that it is often impossible to win against an enormously powerful yet unethical opponent without engaging in your so-called "politics of emotion" - and those politics can be waged without risk of right-wing extremism.

Finally, maybe you should think about what it means to tell someone who's lost their land and family and right to self-determination, "you better not express any disgust or hate, because that makes you a fascist." Fascism arises, in part, from authoritarian strongmen making stuff up about groups who are too weak to defend themselves. Those who sympathize with Palestinians don't have to make anything up about Israel's misdeeds; Israel is incredibly powerful; and there is no strongman guiding anti-Israel sentiment. So what are you telling people when you tell them they risk becoming fascists by saying they are anti-Israel? You are attempting to silence their voices on spurious grounds.

Quote
"Anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment fed by and cloaked in anti-imperialist rhetoric is the shape in which left antisemitism has traveled for more than sixty years."
This only applies to the last sixty years ago because prior to that extreme left antisemitism was much more out in the open.
And the anti-imperialist rhetoric just happens to provide a narrative that promotes an us (the good people) vs them (the bad people) without going into any details.

Really? If all you are hearing is "us vs them" and blind hatred among those who have spoken against Israel, then you are not listening.

Quote
Maybe it is time for the left to come to terms with their history and stop aligning themselves with eliminationist antisemites of the islamist flavor.
That would allow supporting the Israeli left which finds itself battling a increasingly authoritarian government intent on dismantling institutions of Israeli society.

I still haven't seen any examples from you of mainstream leftist groups or politicians who "align themselives with eliminationist antisemites of the islamist flavor." You mentioned one whacko who wrote something that might qualify. Who else?

Quote
Until that happens, the totalitarian islamofascists of Hamas and their ilk will be able to continue to block effective political action against the promoters of violence in Israel.

Being serious about doing something, instead of satisfying the personal desire to feel good for believing to be on the good side of history, most likely will require solidarity with the Israeli left and cutting off all support for islamist authoritarianism.

Here is a video from an Israeli Jew opposed to the current Israeli government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDYFroPMEqg

I suggest to investigate all these issues a bit. It's not going to be easy but starting out with analyzing the different perspectives would probably work best.

And there is really no way around that work - unless one is happy to be led around by the nose by political operatives from a whole different league.

Thank you for your condescension, but I am very well aware that there is a left-leaning minority in Israel that criticizes the government. Your assertion that the western left refuses to align itself with the Israeli left due to the influence of "islamofascists" is laughable. I know plenty of left-leaning people, some but not all of them American Jews, and most (probably all) of them are sympathetic with the Israeli left. Not one of them has the slightest patience for fundamentalism of any sort, whether it's Islamic, Jewish, Christian or whatever.

There are many obstacles to progress towards peace, but one of them is not the western left and its supposed failure to find common cause with the Israeli left. A far greater problem is that those on the left who call Israel out are routinely silenced by one means or the other, which leads to overrepresentation of the pro-Israel perspective in the media and in politics. And that is why I am so opposed to your insistence that anti-Israel sentiment among western leftists is somehow attributable to islamofascism. To me, that is just another way of silencing Israel's critics.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #337 on: November 17, 2023, 08:19:08 AM »
Palestinians in Gaza face immediate possibility of starvation due to the siege being imposed.

"Supplies of food and water are practically non-existent in Gaza and only a fraction of what is needed is arriving through the borders.  With winter fast approaching, unsafe and overcrowded shelters, and the lack of clean water, civilians are facing the immediate possibility of starvation."

 - World Food Program Executive Director Cindy McCain

ATtiny85

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #338 on: November 17, 2023, 08:48:03 AM »
One does not immediately die of starvation...One can immediately be blown up, or shot, or beat to death, but to starve to death takes unthinkable suffering for an extended amount of time. Now, dehydration, that's a bit more efficient for killing people. I think it works especially good for innocent people.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #339 on: November 17, 2023, 09:08:00 AM »
One does not immediately die of starvation...One can immediately be blown up, or shot, or beat to death, but to starve to death takes unthinkable suffering for an extended amount of time. Now, dehydration, that's a bit more efficient for killing people. I think it works especially good for innocent people.
When the Israelis shut off the water supply, that's when I thought "this could really turn into a genocide".

ATtiny85

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #340 on: November 17, 2023, 09:16:21 AM »
One does not immediately die of starvation...One can immediately be blown up, or shot, or beat to death, but to starve to death takes unthinkable suffering for an extended amount of time. Now, dehydration, that's a bit more efficient for killing people. I think it works especially good for innocent people.
When the Israelis shut off the water supply, that's when I thought "this could really turn into a genocide".

Yeah, I learned the simple lesson from a Special Forces Master Sergeant while I was an ROTC cadet in the early 90s: "When invading, don't mess with grandma or her drinking water." Meaning of course leave the civilians and their infrastructure alone.

bacchi

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #341 on: November 17, 2023, 10:05:49 AM »
One does not immediately die of starvation...One can immediately be blown up, or shot, or beat to death, but to starve to death takes unthinkable suffering for an extended amount of time. Now, dehydration, that's a bit more efficient for killing people. I think it works especially good for innocent people.
When the Israelis shut off the water supply, that's when I thought "this could really turn into a genocide".

Yeah, I learned the simple lesson from a Special Forces Master Sergeant while I was an ROTC cadet in the early 90s: "When invading, don't mess with grandma or her drinking water." Meaning of course leave the civilians and their infrastructure alone.

1) Otzma, Likud, and the other Israeli fascists really do want to kill Palestinian civilians, and lots of them. This isn't too far fetched considering the make up of the government. The Security Minister was convicted of aiding a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, for example. The Defense Minister led the 2008 Gaza war, in which the IDF was accused by the UN and Amnesty of using human shields and using white phosphorous (they later admitted to that accusation).
Or,
2) The military really thinks cutting off water would pressure Hamas to surrender for the lives of the Palestinians they purport to support.

It could be a combination, where one hand of the government is being used by the other. Ben-Gvir encourages the IDF that it's a viable strategy, knowing full well that Netanyahu is/was propping up Hamas for political reasons. The IDF Generals, believing that Hamas is a rational actor, agrees.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #342 on: November 17, 2023, 10:18:57 AM »
One does not immediately die of starvation...One can immediately be blown up, or shot, or beat to death, but to starve to death takes unthinkable suffering for an extended amount of time. Now, dehydration, that's a bit more efficient for killing people. I think it works especially good for innocent people.
When the Israelis shut off the water supply, that's when I thought "this could really turn into a genocide".

Yeah, I learned the simple lesson from a Special Forces Master Sergeant while I was an ROTC cadet in the early 90s: "When invading, don't mess with grandma or her drinking water." Meaning of course leave the civilians and their infrastructure alone.

1) Otzma, Likud, and the other Israeli fascists really do want to kill Palestinian civilians, and lots of them. This isn't too far fetched considering the make up of the government. The Security Minister was convicted of aiding a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, for example. The Defense Minister led the 2008 Gaza war, in which the IDF was accused by the UN and Amnesty of using human shields and using white phosphorous (they later admitted to that accusation).
Or,
2) The military really thinks cutting off water would pressure Hamas to surrender for the lives of the Palestinians they purport to support.

It could be a combination, where one hand of the government is being used by the other. Ben-Gvir encourages the IDF that it's a viable strategy, knowing full well that Netanyahu is/was propping up Hamas for political reasons. The IDF Generals, believing that Hamas is a rational actor, agrees.

It is mind-boggling to me that Itamar Ben-Gvir, a convicted terrorist who bragged about attempting to assassinate political rivals via car bomb and who was rejected from mandatory military service due to his racism, is the minister in charge of national security for Israel under Netanyahu.

dang1

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #343 on: November 18, 2023, 02:52:56 AM »
much lack of Palestinian food, water, medicine, but plenty of hummus rockets and weapons

mastrr

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #344 on: November 18, 2023, 07:54:00 AM »
hummus doesn't want to save their civilians, they want as many people all over the world as angry at Israel as possible.

If you want to cause devastation don't kill your enemy, maul them.  When you kill your enemy they just replace them with another human.  When you maul someone that single person is still unable to fight but needs a doctor, nurse, surgeon etc.   By mauling them you can more effectively cripple the enemy as your overwhelm their resources.  Mauling will destroy their economy more effectively then killing will.

PeteD01

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #345 on: November 18, 2023, 08:03:07 AM »
I'd agree with this:


Opinion
Israel-Hamas war
Too many taking sides in this conflict miss the true nature of Hamas – and Netanyahu
Jonathan Freedland
Both those calling for a ceasefire and those opposing it are making assumptions that don’t stack up

Fri 17 Nov 2023 13.06 EST

Know thine enemy – and know thine ally, too. Too many of those pushing for one outcome or another in the war between Israel and Hamas misjudge the parties involved. They make mistaken assumptions about one side or the other – or both – that lead them to draw flawed, even dangerous, conclusions. There is no monopoly on these mistaken assumptions. They can be made by those calling on western leaders to demand an immediate ceasefire – and by the very western leaders they seek to persuade.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-ceasefire


bacchi

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #346 on: November 18, 2023, 11:54:04 AM »
hummus doesn't want to save their civilians, they want as many people all over the world as angry at Israel as possible.

If you want to cause devastation don't kill your enemy, maul them.  When you kill your enemy they just replace them with another human.  When you maul someone that single person is still unable to fight but needs a doctor, nurse, surgeon etc.   By mauling them you can more effectively cripple the enemy as your overwhelm their resources.  Mauling will destroy their economy more effectively then killing will.

So the objective, in your opinion, should be to destroy the Palestinian economy (worse than what it is with a 50% unemployment rate)? How does that square with your first sentence where you state that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian civilians?

bacchi

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #347 on: November 18, 2023, 12:38:04 PM »
I'd agree with this:


Opinion
Israel-Hamas war
Too many taking sides in this conflict miss the true nature of Hamas – and Netanyahu
Jonathan Freedland
Both those calling for a ceasefire and those opposing it are making assumptions that don’t stack up

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-ceasefire

I do too, for the most part, but this is a weird thing to claim.

Quote from: guardian
Start with those who look at the havoc wreaked in Gaza – at the many thousands killed, at the pile of rubble that was once the largest Palestinian city in the world – and decide that, whatever horrors Hamas committed on 7 October, surely it has now sustained enough of a blow; given all that Gaza has suffered, surely now Hamas will be deterred from future attacks.

Specific examples can be used (this Professor said he was pro-Hamas!) but it closes in on the absurd to claim that the hundreds of thousands around the world calling for a ceasefire are pro-Hamas rather than pro-Palestinian (civilian). I also suspect that the vast majority don't "see Hamas simply as a resistance movement."

The hospital, "broadly suspected/understood as far back as 2014" to be a Hamas HQ, could've been raided in the first place. Targeted "police actions" are more humane than dropping bombs on refugee camps in the hopes of catching a few terrorists.


"Gaza needs a humanitarian pause now":
Quote from: https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20231110_gaza_needs_a_humanitarian_pause_now
Claiming humanitarian aid cannot be brought in the name of the need to fight Hamas implies an underlying assumption that, at least for now, these civilians can be ignored and left to starve, get sick, and die.

PeteD01

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #348 on: November 18, 2023, 04:37:16 PM »
I'd agree with this:


Opinion
Israel-Hamas war
Too many taking sides in this conflict miss the true nature of Hamas – and Netanyahu
Jonathan Freedland
Both those calling for a ceasefire and those opposing it are making assumptions that don’t stack up

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-ceasefire

I do too, for the most part, but this is a weird thing to claim.

Quote from: guardian
Start with those who look at the havoc wreaked in Gaza – at the many thousands killed, at the pile of rubble that was once the largest Palestinian city in the world – and decide that, whatever horrors Hamas committed on 7 October, surely it has now sustained enough of a blow; given all that Gaza has suffered, surely now Hamas will be deterred from future attacks.

Specific examples can be used (this Professor said he was pro-Hamas!) but it closes in on the absurd to claim that the hundreds of thousands around the world calling for a ceasefire are pro-Hamas rather than pro-Palestinian (civilian). I also suspect that the vast majority don't "see Hamas simply as a resistance movement."

I do not think I can follow the argument.
When I read the entire paragraph, I see only criticism of a position that sees Hamas as a kind of liberation movement, however twisted, that should be expected, at least is theory, to care somewhat for the to-be-liberated folks:

Start with those who look at the havoc wreaked in Gaza – at the many thousands killed, at the pile of rubble that was once the largest Palestinian city in the world – and decide that, whatever horrors Hamas committed on 7 October, surely it has now sustained enough of a blow; given all that Gaza has suffered, surely now Hamas will be deterred from future attacks. Such thinking fundamentally misunderstands the nature of that organisation. Because Hamas is a different kind of enemy, one that does not fit the usual theories of war. Put simply, it does not mind if its own people die.

Hamas is not that kind of organization and could care less about Palestinian civilians.
Hamas is a purportedly Sunni Muslim outfit but is essentially an Iranian Shia influenced Islamist gang of murderers; in addition, it has let itself be used by a cynical radical right Israeli government that is trying to undermine any possible prospects of developing any type of political autonomy or economic development for Palestinians.

Add to that that the public in many Sunni nations in the area has grown sick of salafist/Isis type organizations and isn't ready to support another outfit of that sort which is, on top of all, an Iran and radical right Israeli sponsored actor.

There are many in the middle east who see the Gaza Palestinians as victims not only of Israel but also of Hamas, which is doing work for Iran, and causing terrible suffering for Sunni Palestinians.


Here is a relatively recent analysis of Arab public opinion that suggests that Hamas is unlikely to recover the status of defender of Gaza Palestinians:


Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics
by Catherine Cleveland, David Pollock
Oct 10, 2023
Also available in
العربية

According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah



So, I do not think that it is a stretch to infer that the Sunni Arab street is not going to cause problems for Sunni Arab governments quietly supporting the functional elimination of Hamas (forget Jordan, it is a special case) - and I can even imagine that there are conditions for this support that include not letting any Hamas escape from Gaza.

Funny how this take would also explain the curious "rift" between the Biden administration and some in the diplomatic services - given the experience of the Biden foreign policy operation, I would put my money on the administration because they appear to be reading the land as I do. But we'll see.



The hospital, "broadly suspected/understood as far back as 2014" to be a Hamas HQ, could've been raided in the first place. Targeted "police actions" are more humane than dropping bombs on refugee camps in the hopes of catching a few terrorists.

I do not know much about these things but I do not think that "police actions" in order to arrest the heavily protected enemy leadership ensconced under an operating hospital in the center of a fortified city without being otherwise in complete control of the situation is a smart move - and when I think about it, establishing military control in the area and then doing (police style) raids to capture whatever leadership is still present in some remaining pockets may just be what we are looking at.
But what do I know.



"Gaza needs a humanitarian pause now":

Agree, but they won't get one if any of the interested parties thinks that it would interfere with the elimination of Hamas or create opportunities for operatives to escape.

And cease fire? Not going to happen until all hostages are freed and Hamas is degraded sufficiently to not pose a future risk for any of the interested parties.


Quote from: https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20231110_gaza_needs_a_humanitarian_pause_now
Claiming humanitarian aid cannot be brought in the name of the need to fight Hamas implies an underlying assumption that, at least for now, these civilians can be ignored and left to starve, get sick, and die.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2023, 05:38:57 PM by PeteD01 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #349 on: November 18, 2023, 07:49:37 PM »
And cease fire? Not going to happen until all hostages are freed and Hamas is degraded sufficiently to not pose a future risk for any of the interested parties.

I strongly believe that all hostages should be freed.  For sure that includes the couple hundred that Hamas took, but also the 1200 Palestinians kidnapped by Israelis and held in prison without charge or court date from before the Hamas attack in October.

If you're advocating only for one set of hostages to be freed and then demanding that civilians die until that happens . . . it feels a lot more like bigotry than concern for people who have been kidnapped.