Author Topic: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?  (Read 10357 times)

GuitarStv

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Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« on: July 07, 2015, 09:19:02 AM »
I need a new cycling jersey and was looking around for one.  Being a superhero fan I kinda liked this jersey:  http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Hot-sale-2014-Flash-Mens-Red-cycling-jersey-Biking-Shirt-Rider-Sportswear-S-3XL-Cycling-Short/423914_1598593176.html and it seems super cheap.

. . . but . . . it's super cheap and coming directly from China.  Which means slave workers in sweatshops.  Not really cool.  But then, pretty much all of the cycling jerseys I see anywhere seem to be made in third world countries.  Am I being crazy?

Drifterrider

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2015, 09:32:37 AM »
Chinese people gotta eat too.


Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2015, 09:38:52 AM »
My thinking on stuff like this is: necessity, frequency, alternatives, opportunity cost.

So basically is Item X a necessity, or near enough? I'd put my phone in this category. I'm not going without a smart phone, which means I'm supporting some kind of chinese manufacturing no matter what. All that stuff at the Dollar Bin at Target - all made in China plastic trinkets, that kind of thing - basically total crap with absolutely no redeeming necessity.

Frequency: how often do I make this purchase. I get a new phone about every 4 years. That seems to be how long they last without totally breaking down on me. So that's fairly infrequent. Compare this to something like food/snacks, etc, which one might purchase several times a week.

Alternatives: how reasonable is it to source an alternative that might be manufactured more in keeping with my values? In the case of some stuff, like tech, it's nearly impossible. Some items, like clothing, it's difficult but not impossible. Some items, like food, there are many readily available products that are locally produced or at least are imported from countries with a better reputation.

Opportunity cost: the opportunity cost of buying exclusively made in America or similar clothing is often too high for me. The cost is typically much higher, the style options far more limited, and frankly the quality of made in the USA clothing almost never compensates for the higher pricetag. YMMV.

As someone who thinks about the role her dollar plays in shaping the world around her, I consider this kind of stuff - probably too much. But I've come to think that at the end of the day we can only do the best we can. There are no black and whites here, and living in society means we are a little bit screwed no matter how ethical we try to be in our purchasing - because the system will always raise some up and hold some down unfairly and that's just the way it is.

I personally would not say that a well researched purchase of a cycling jersey is immoral. In fact, I could argue that if you buy it, and owning this jersey encourages you to cycle more and drive less, you are helping reduce the demand for oil and therefore doing a very ethical thing - since demand for oil leads to all kinds of human atrocities.

This kind of stuff is so damned sticky.

TL;DR - it's ok man. Get your jersey.

AZDude

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 09:49:15 AM »
Do you want to buy your clothes from a factory in China where they pay low wages and treat their workers poorly, or would you rather buy from a factory in the US where they pay low wages and treat their workers poorly.

In general, third world countries have such high unemployment rates that a 70 hour a week factory job is something much of the population would fight for, since the alternative is starving/begging.

MoneyCat

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 09:51:02 AM »
It's practically impossible NOT to buy stuff from China after our politicians sold us all out with trade agreements, so I say go right ahead.  Your conscience should be clear.

forummm

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2015, 12:13:35 PM »
You're putting money in the pockets of some people in China that needed work. I think that's OK. It would be great if they were treated better. But nice that they do at least have a job. Reality is nuanced.

TrMama

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2015, 03:24:28 PM »
Where would you buy a jersey that wasn't made in a sweatshop? The only way around this issue (that I know of) is to sew your own clothes.

marty998

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2015, 03:48:38 PM »
You'd be surprised at the level of wage growth that is occurring in China.

So much so that manufacturing is fast becoming uneconomic and the big clothing brands are having to move onto poorer countries such as Bangladesh and Cambodia.

Bob W

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 11:51:33 AM »
Not immoral but definitely un-American.   If every US citizen refused to buy Chinese our economy would be amazing.   Of course Chine would be dirt poor. 

Lyssa

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2015, 11:57:39 AM »
You'd be surprised at the level of wage growth that is occurring in China.

So much so that manufacturing is fast becoming uneconomic and the big clothing brands are having to move onto poorer countries such as Bangladesh and Cambodia.

Yep. China has been a rather expensive country for the textile industry for quite a few years now. Producers looking for the lowest wages have moved on.

forummm

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2015, 12:49:19 PM »
Not immoral but definitely un-American.   If every US citizen refused to buy Chinese our economy would be amazing.   Of course Chine would be dirt poor. 

First, there are plenty of goods that we import from other countries. But also that's the opposite of how trade works. Trade makes our economy better because we get cheaper goods. If our goods are more expensive, we can buy less with our money. So we're worse off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
http://www.econlib.org/library/Topics/Details/comparativeadvantage.html
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.asp

MMMaybe

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2015, 08:07:57 PM »
Well how would it be if the rest of the world stopped buying from America? Global trade is a reality.

I think to be fair that many low income Americans work in difficult and unpleasant conditions as well. Many people in other parts of the world think that workers' rights are poor in the US.

Also there are certain companies (I think Everlane is one) where they source/manufacture responsibly overseas so a blanket China is bad stance is not necessarily accurate.

Plus China is an awesome country and I love to travel there-but that has nothing to do with this conversation  :)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 02:05:42 AM by MMMaybe »

Cole

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2015, 08:34:29 PM »
Buy it. All your doing is cutting out the middleman that slaps a 200% markup on it.

grantmeaname

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2015, 05:51:59 AM »
Not immoral but definitely un-American.   If every US citizen refused to buy Chinese our economy would be amazing.   Of course Chine would be dirt poor.
If every US citizen refused to buy Chinese our standard of living would be dramatically lower. International trade generally makes both parties to the trade better off. (And that notion is just about 200 years old - mercantilism should be left in the dust where it belongs!)

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2015, 07:19:27 AM »
The growth of Chinese manufacturing over the last few decades has helped to bring hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

I suspect the conditions in a clothing factory generally aren't all that great, regardless of which country it's based in.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2015, 07:43:42 AM »
Don't feel bad as the joke is usually on you when you buy cheap Chinese products.

I think around three things out of tens of items I have purchased at Harbor Freight have not failed.

Two of the four casters on a roll around stool snapped off within the first month.  The rivits failed on a camp chair.

The best item has been the free tarp I got there.  I was able to put all the other junk in it and it made the dump run very easy.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2015, 07:59:08 AM »
It's hilarious how people love the free markets and drum up how they are responsible for their own successes, up until someone from overseas competes with them and then it's all about the Chinese that are taking away our livelihoods.

Meanwhile, millions are left in poverty (not the Western kind of poverty where you still have a roof over your head and the world's information at your fingertips) because of tariffs imposed on foreign goods that prevent them from competing.

forummm

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2015, 11:13:11 AM »
It's hilarious how people love the free markets and drum up how they are responsible for their own successes, up until someone from overseas competes with them and then it's all about the Chinese that are taking away our livelihoods.

Meanwhile, millions are left in poverty (not the Western kind of poverty where you still have a roof over your head and the world's information at your fingertips) because of tariffs imposed on foreign goods that prevent them from competing.

Or people in Africa can't make a living being farmers because the US government pays huge subsidies (driving down the global price of crops) to rich farmers in the US so--in a country where we only eat half the food we grow and are still obese.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2015, 12:41:21 PM »
It's hilarious how people love the free markets and drum up how they are responsible for their own successes, up until someone from overseas competes with them and then it's all about the Chinese that are taking away our livelihoods.

Meanwhile, millions are left in poverty (not the Western kind of poverty where you still have a roof over your head and the world's information at your fingertips) because of tariffs imposed on foreign goods that prevent them from competing.

Or people in Africa can't make a living being farmers because the US government pays huge subsidies (driving down the global price of crops) to rich farmers in the US so--in a country where we only eat half the food we grow and are still obese.

Not only do our farm subsidies drive down the price of commodity crops, but our charities send food to Africa for free to feed the hungry people there. I'm not saying it would be good to just let them starve until they build up a self-sufficient farming industry, but we have to recognize that our food aid does directly slow down progress in that area.

forummm

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2015, 02:24:16 PM »
It's hilarious how people love the free markets and drum up how they are responsible for their own successes, up until someone from overseas competes with them and then it's all about the Chinese that are taking away our livelihoods.

Meanwhile, millions are left in poverty (not the Western kind of poverty where you still have a roof over your head and the world's information at your fingertips) because of tariffs imposed on foreign goods that prevent them from competing.

Or people in Africa can't make a living being farmers because the US government pays huge subsidies (driving down the global price of crops) to rich farmers in the US so--in a country where we only eat half the food we grow and are still obese.

Not only do our farm subsidies drive down the price of commodity crops, but our charities send food to Africa for free to feed the hungry people there. I'm not saying it would be good to just let them starve until they build up a self-sufficient farming industry, but we have to recognize that our food aid does directly slow down progress in that area.

Yeah, there's a lot of the way we do "aid" that's counterproductive. Typically the money is given to US firms, and they do stuff like buy US grain or a big factory load of bed nets, or whatever. So very little of it actually gets to the people in need. Starting a bed net factory with local ownership and local employment and giving everyone a voucher for a bed net (from any local source) would be a model that invests in the community to build sustainable businesses and raise incomes, etc.

clifp

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2015, 05:10:51 PM »
The growth of Chinese manufacturing over the last few decades has helped to bring hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

I suspect the conditions in a clothing factory generally aren't all that great, regardless of which country it's based in.
Yup. Meghan McArdle wrote a good article on the subject recently http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-07-09/africa-should-lure-bangladesh-s-garment-industry
Much of the textile industry has already left China, moved to cheaper places like Vietnam, Cambodia, and most recently Bangladesh. If Africa is lucky they'll soon get these  awful sweatshop jobs.


The aha moment for me was when I visited China and talked to Chinese farmer who was moving to a small city and taking a job in a factory. Several of my fellow tourist thought it was so cool and green that they were collecting the crap from the family and animal and using it as fertilizer on the farm.  When I asked the farmer what he was most excited about in his new house, he instantly responded with indoor plumbing and big grin.  I'm guessing that after you do it a while the back-to-nature green farming is much worse than working in a sweatshop factory.

Quote
Or people in Africa can't make a living being farmers because the US government pays huge subsidies (driving down the global price of crops) to rich farmers in the US so--in a country where we only eat half the food we grow and are still obese.

Yes it is really counterproductive that we make so hard for African farms to sell their food domestically much less export.  However to be fair EU, and counties like Japan have far worse subsidies than the US.

cerebus

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2015, 02:19:34 AM »
If Africa is lucky they'll soon get these  awful sweatshop jobs.

South Africa has an entrenched system of worker rights and unions who will actually riot and destroy equipment if they don't get their wage demands met, and it's already made it unprofitable to run manufacturing in this country. It's unfortunate because unemployment is sky high and the unskilled workforce desperately needs these kinds of labour mops.

matchewed

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2015, 05:32:11 AM »
If Africa is lucky they'll soon get these  awful sweatshop jobs.

South Africa has an entrenched system of worker rights and unions who will actually riot and destroy equipment if they don't get their wage demands met, and it's already made it unprofitable to run manufacturing in this country. It's unfortunate because unemployment is sky high and the unskilled workforce desperately needs these kinds of labour mops.

Since South Africa is only 4% of the rest of Africa (area), I wouldn't be so worried about it holding back the spread of low skilled labor to Africa.

cerebus

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2015, 05:39:15 AM »

If Africa is lucky they'll soon get these  awful sweatshop jobs.

South Africa has an entrenched system of worker rights and unions who will actually riot and destroy equipment if they don't get their wage demands met, and it's already made it unprofitable to run manufacturing in this country. It's unfortunate because unemployment is sky high and the unskilled workforce desperately needs these kinds of labour mops.

Since South Africa is only 4% of the rest of Africa (area), I wouldn't be so worried about it holding back the spread of low skilled labor to Africa.

No I'm more worried about it missing out on the labour boom when it does come ashore.


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Left

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2015, 06:20:41 AM »
so would it more moral to buy them from sweatshops in the US? I mean if market demands $15 shirts, and the companies provide the manufacturing in the US...?

It's more a question of is it moral to buy the shirt for $15, regardless of where it is made.... That way it won't matter if the shop is anywhere in the world, if you paid $30/shirt then it won't be a sweatshop (assuming the owners passed difference on in salary and not keep the profit, but stock holders can pressure for this as well)

By wanting cheaper items, the companies need cheaper labor... it kind of feeds on itself :S Start paying more for each item, and maybe they'll pay more to get them made (but really, the owners just pocket the difference since they can)

mrpercentage

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2015, 01:24:43 PM »
Not immoral but definitely un-American.   If every US citizen refused to buy Chinese our economy would be amazing.   Of course Chine would be dirt poor. 

First, there are plenty of goods that we import from other countries. But also that's the opposite of how trade works. Trade makes our economy better because we get cheaper goods. If our goods are more expensive, we can buy less with our money. So we're worse off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
http://www.econlib.org/library/Topics/Details/comparativeadvantage.html
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.asp
I thought trade started for new spices and goods you do not have. Buy other countries goods support other Countries jobs. Buy your countries goods support USA  jobs. Buy everything from China because it's cheap is trading jobs for cheap crap. But it's not immoral

ncornilsen

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2015, 06:45:03 PM »
Don't feel bad as the joke is usually on you when you buy cheap Chinese products.

I think around three things out of tens of items I have purchased at Harbor Freight have not failed.

Two of the four casters on a roll around stool snapped off within the first month.  The rivits failed on a camp chair.

The best item has been the free tarp I got there.  I was able to put all the other junk in it and it made the dump run very easy.

Not my experience. bought a 70 dollar coil nailer, and have done 5 houses roofs with it in the last few years. Corded drill? 2 years of use and abuse. My craftsman ratchet I just bought is junk compared to the harbor freight one. If I made my living every day with these tools, maybe I'd by a higher grade tool. But that's not what HF is for.


cerebus

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2015, 12:23:33 AM »
Not immoral but definitely un-American.   If every US citizen refused to buy Chinese our economy would be amazing.   Of course Chine would be dirt poor.

That's very dubious. If everyone only bought US goods, the prices of everything would be multiples higher than it is now, and lack of competition would stifle innovation and quality - imagine if GM was still putting out crapolicious Camaros every year and Samsung never competed with Apple. Also, America has benefited hugely from the outflow of goods to the international market, arguably more than the other countries have benefited from the cheap labour provided by manufacturing jobs to the US.

stripey

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2015, 07:51:12 AM »
Here's some things I try to minimise my buying dollar to:

1 - Crayons that have asbestos in them
2 - Jeans that have been treated in ways to 'wear' the fabric such that the people that created them develop silicosis
3 - Companies that decide to use n-hexane to clean screens because it takes 20s less to dry than the less toxic alternatives
4 - Toys with stuffing in them which contains peanut residues that might make my allergic nephew sick
5 - Environmental non-concern resulting in people living in manufacturing areas habitually wearing masks
6 - Cheap garlic (largely tasteless compared to home-grown) bleached and treated with methyl bromide prior to importation

And for those reasons I try to purchase high quality products that will last a long period of time, and preferably made somewhere other than China (or Bangladesh, or anywhere else like that)*. I can't completely oblitirate my exposure to these things- for example, I do wear jeans, and do have a smartphone, but I have usually been able to source these second hand.

I think we have to be realistic about how much of the stuff we buy is unnecessary, and we should how our greed and lust for cheap consumables has driven a global market where the time and effort that goes into making a t-shirt saleable at $15 or less has resulted in systems that devalue the lives of the people who make them*. Pretty much all of us have more clothes than our grandparents had at the same age. Our grandparents paid more for them (or made them), and took much better care of them.

* If I can't buy an item second hand, then yes I'll buy it new, and if necessary, I will purchase something produced in China or a similar economy. And I'll happily support businesses that produce items made in China (or similar) if they can demonstrate that value of the lives of the workers and the environment... and yes they do exist.
** Or grow commodities. Chocolate and coffee are good examples of this. People growing coffee- which is basically a frivolous expenditure, however much some argue that it's an entire life philosophy- SHOULD be able to make enough to feed their family and educate their children at least to the end of primary school.



BlueHouse

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2015, 08:21:52 PM »
Not immoral but definitely un-American. 

I find the statements calling anyone "un-American" or "un-Patriotic" to be the most unjustified statement possible.  Please explain your definition of "American" behavior.  Is it limiting the freedom of others?  Sorry, Bob, I don't mean to attack you personally, but I've seen this insult used as a very weak method of shaming others to behave in a particular way -- and that way is different depending on who hurls the insult. 
I've seen fights started in bars because some drunk hag called an innocent bystander un-patriotic very loudly for no legitimate reason.

grantmeaname

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2015, 09:01:58 AM »
Not immoral but definitely un-American.
I find the statements calling anyone "un-American" or "un-Patriotic" to be the most unjustified statement possible.
Yeah. Un-American, even.

cerebus

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2015, 12:53:33 AM »
Not immoral but definitely un-American.
I find the statements calling anyone "un-American" or "un-Patriotic" to be the most unjustified statement possible.
Yeah. Un-American, even.

Them's fightin words.

expatartist

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2015, 01:13:13 AM »
It's not immoral to buy stuff from China. Some of the factories are even unionized, like the ones which make my Fairphone (only available in Europe for now) https://www.fairphone.com/about/

HappierAtHome

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2015, 01:26:18 AM »
I try to purchase high quality products that will last a long period of time, and preferably made somewhere other than China (or Bangladesh, or anywhere else like that)*. I can't completely oblitirate my exposure to these things- for example, I do wear jeans, and do have a smartphone, but I have usually been able to source these second hand.

I think we have to be realistic about how much of the stuff we buy is unnecessary, and we should how our greed and lust for cheap consumables has driven a global market where the time and effort that goes into making a t-shirt saleable at $15 or less has resulted in systems that devalue the lives of the people who make them*. Pretty much all of us have more clothes than our grandparents had at the same age. Our grandparents paid more for them (or made them), and took much better care of them.

* If I can't buy an item second hand, then yes I'll buy it new, and if necessary, I will purchase something produced in China or a similar economy. And I'll happily support businesses that produce items made in China (or similar) if they can demonstrate that value of the lives of the workers and the environment... and yes they do exist.
** Or grow commodities. Chocolate and coffee are good examples of this. People growing coffee- which is basically a frivolous expenditure, however much some argue that it's an entire life philosophy- SHOULD be able to make enough to feed their family and educate their children at least to the end of primary school.

All this. It's important to consider the ethical and environmental aspects of our buying choices whether the item is made in China, Australia or any other country in the world. Once you start really thinking about it, every dollar is a vote and I want to vote for sustainable and humane practices wherever possible.

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2015, 10:52:20 AM »
It's important to consider the ethical and environmental aspects of our buying choices whether the item is made in China, Australia or any other country in the world. Once you start really thinking about it, every dollar is a vote and I want to vote for sustainable and humane practices wherever possible.

Slow clap here.

stlbrah

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2015, 01:29:40 PM »
$4 for suprisingly good quality aviator sunglasses and $2 for earbud headphones. Ya, I buy from china.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2015, 11:10:42 AM »
Cycling jersey came in, and it's pretty awesome.  :P

G-dog

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2015, 01:30:46 PM »
Cycling jersey came in, and it's pretty awesome.  :P
How about a photo of you modeling it?
I assume it makes you faster and flashier!

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it immoral to buy stuff from China?
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2015, 01:35:49 PM »
I'll wear it tomorrow with the rest of my spandex for a 60-70 km run.  Pics may be forthcoming.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!