Author Topic: Is Democracy dying?  (Read 3541 times)

RosieTR

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Northern CO
Is Democracy dying?
« on: November 29, 2016, 03:54:20 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/world/americas/western-liberal-democracy.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

For those of us born and raised in the global West, it's difficult to think of democracy as a passing fad among human civilizations, but this article suggests that that may be the case. After all, Rome was once a Republic, then fell. Many western republics were based on some of the Roman ideals of democracy, in fact. I am generally unfamiliar with much Eastern history, so if there have been democracies that I'm ignoring, please enlighten me (and probably others!).

At least some of the founders of the United States were dubious about how long a republic would last, so perhaps they would have been pleasantly surprised at the slings and arrows that we've survived thus far, and may still survive, who knows?

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4422
  • Location: CT
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 04:01:21 PM »
Over a long enough timeline everything we know is dead. You may have to be a bit more specific on this one as to the timeline and the why's.

2Birds1Stone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7916
  • Age: 1
  • Location: Earth
  • K Thnx Bye
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 04:38:48 PM »
The US was never a democracy, nor was it intended to be.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 04:39:35 PM »
So, Rome is an interesting topic.  Go refresh yourself on its history and consider how close to a republic it really was.  Many of the things you think of as democratic or republican about it require entirely alien definitions of citizen to what we use today.  Rome was an intensely brutal society, and bears much stronger resemblance to feudal England than it does to us in actual practice.  The philosophy, the idea, of the rule of law and of a coherent decision making process for the distribution of resources enshrined within law were there, but that's where the resemblance ends.  Remember, those Romans were Italians.  They can cook, sure, but you don't want them in charge of anything.

The american experiment was such a complete departure to anything that had ever been tried before, that it starts to really seem like a divine thing.  Until you remember the whole slavery thing.  And the women can't vote.  And the thousand other things they got a little wrong because they were basically starting with shit.  The decentralization with state governments is a subtle thing, but I think it is what keeps everything balanced.  Particularly with mass media helping to keep the culture relatively on the same page.  I feel like the problem with the exportation of the american system is that nobody takes all of it.  They set up a bicameral legislature and a president and think they're good, and then 30 years later it all goes to shit.

Some of the numbers in that article though.  Holy shit.  Only 19% of snake people think a military intervention if the government isn't doing its job is illegitimate?  WTF.  That's almost as shocking as the fact that the number used to be only 43%.  I mean, JFC, 100%, everyone should say 100%.  I can see 90%, because you ask only ten people and one misunderstood, but, Christ.

RosieTR

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Northern CO
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 04:48:53 PM »
So, Rome is an interesting topic.  Go refresh yourself on its history and consider how close to a republic it really was.  Many of the things you think of as democratic or republican about it require entirely alien definitions of citizen to what we use today.  Rome was an intensely brutal society, and bears much stronger resemblance to feudal England than it does to us in actual practice.  The philosophy, the idea, of the rule of law and of a coherent decision making process for the distribution of resources enshrined within law were there, but that's where the resemblance ends.  Remember, those Romans were Italians.  They can cook, sure, but you don't want them in charge of anything.

The american experiment was such a complete departure to anything that had ever been tried before, that it starts to really seem like a divine thing.  Until you remember the whole slavery thing.  And the women can't vote.  And the thousand other things they got a little wrong because they were basically starting with shit.  The decentralization with state governments is a subtle thing, but I think it is what keeps everything balanced.  Particularly with mass media helping to keep the culture relatively on the same page.  I feel like the problem with the exportation of the american system is that nobody takes all of it.  They set up a bicameral legislature and a president and think they're good, and then 30 years later it all goes to shit.

Some of the numbers in that article though.  Holy shit.  Only 19% of snake people think a military intervention if the government isn't doing its job is illegitimate?  WTF.  That's almost as shocking as the fact that the number used to be only 43%.  I mean, JFC, 100%, everyone should say 100%.  I can see 90%, because you ask only ten people and one misunderstood, but, Christ.

Yes, I did mean that the founders had studied t Roman ideals and tried to base the US system on that. There were terrible flaws with the Roman system, worse even than the "only white male property owners can vote" situation the US began with.

Totally agree on the military intervention thing, holy shit. I was rather surprised by that, especially by the age differential.

FrugalFan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 895
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 05:27:31 PM »
I was surprised by that part as well (military takeover). Those numbers are totally shocking to me and way off from what I would have guessed.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 05:56:43 PM »
Democracy like any other governing concept wont die. Though there is no guarantee any government will keep its form indefinitely. Generally I think people in the US simply are still doing to well for any kind of radical change or uprising to occur.

A lot will depend on how the future global economy continues to shape up.

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 06:02:56 PM »
The answer to this question strictly speaking is yes, most democratic countries in the world have negative birth rates and populations which are only sustained by immigration.


Classical_Liberal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1171
  • Age: 47
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2016, 06:15:45 PM »
Some of the numbers in that article though.  Holy shit.  Only 19% of snake people think a military intervention if the government isn't doing its job is illegitimate?  WTF.  That's almost as shocking as the fact that the number used to be only 43%.  I mean, JFC, 100%, everyone should say 100%.  I can see 90%, because you ask only ten people and one misunderstood, but, Christ.

I think the responses may have been tainted by how the question was phrased. They dont report how it was exactly phrased in the poll, but I initially read this to mean; should the government be overthrown by military means if it isn't doing its job.  There is a stark difference between a populace overthrowing a very bad government with violence (which I would consider supporting)  vs military dictatorship (which I would never consider supporting). 

scantee

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 582
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2016, 10:06:27 PM »
"A republic, if you can keep it."

I thought this was a good article about how we've come to take democracy for granted. There are fewer and fewer people around who've lived through fascism directly (or fought in wars to combat it) and we've lost our shared memory of the vigilance necessary to guard our institutions against the dangers posed to our fragile democracy. We assume our institutions are robust, so we can assault or ignore them with sacrificing our civil rights or general way of life.

But that's naive and simply untrue. Our institutions only remain robust if we collectively believe in them and guard against threats to them. Without that, we--yes, even Americans--can very easily slip out of democracy and into passively accepting authoritarianism because it feels right and being civic-minded is hard work and, for a lot of people, seeing others suffer brings it own sense of satisfaction when they themselves are suffering.

msilenus

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2016, 10:44:11 PM »
One of the interesting aspects of the U.S. Constitution is that the framers anticipated a vote for an unsuitable but nonetheless popular (-ist) candidate, and created a mechanism to thwart that. 

There are places where Federalist 68 reads suspiciously like it was written by a time-travelling robo-statesman sent back in time to avert a Donald Trump Presidency:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed68.asp

We weren't even supposed to elect Senators directly.  Just the rabble in lower chamber.  The Framers really didn't trust voters very much.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2016, 11:44:53 PM »
Some of the numbers in that article though.  Holy shit.  Only 19% of snake people think a military intervention if the government isn't doing its job is illegitimate?  WTF.  That's almost as shocking as the fact that the number used to be only 43%.  I mean, JFC, 100%, everyone should say 100%.  I can see 90%, because you ask only ten people and one misunderstood, but, Christ.

I think the responses may have been tainted by how the question was phrased. They dont report how it was exactly phrased in the poll, but I initially read this to mean; should the government be overthrown by military means if it isn't doing its job.  There is a stark difference between a populace overthrowing a very bad government with violence (which I would consider supporting)  vs military dictatorship (which I would never consider supporting).

I would suggest a significant proportion of the population would not understand the question, nor it's implications.

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2016, 07:23:18 AM »
Some of the numbers in that article though.  Holy shit.  Only 19% of snake people think a military intervention if the government isn't doing its job is illegitimate?  WTF.  That's almost as shocking as the fact that the number used to be only 43%.  I mean, JFC, 100%, everyone should say 100%.  I can see 90%, because you ask only ten people and one misunderstood, but, Christ.

I think the responses may have been tainted by how the question was phrased. They dont report how it was exactly phrased in the poll, but I initially read this to mean; should the government be overthrown by military means if it isn't doing its job.  There is a stark difference between a populace overthrowing a very bad government with violence (which I would consider supporting)  vs military dictatorship (which I would never consider supporting).

That's how I initially read it as well.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5278
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2016, 10:40:50 AM »
Some of the numbers in that article though.  Holy shit.  Only 19% of snake people think a military intervention if the government isn't doing its job is illegitimate?  WTF.  That's almost as shocking as the fact that the number used to be only 43%.  I mean, JFC, 100%, everyone should say 100%.  I can see 90%, because you ask only ten people and one misunderstood, but, Christ.

I think the responses may have been tainted by how the question was phrased. They dont report how it was exactly phrased in the poll, but I initially read this to mean; should the government be overthrown by military means if it isn't doing its job.  There is a stark difference between a populace overthrowing a very bad government with violence (which I would consider supporting)  vs military dictatorship (which I would never consider supporting).

That's how I initially read it as well.

Are there historical trends of this the first option happening? In all the examples I can think of, the overthrowing of a government with violence has only elected people who tend strongly towards dictatorship.

Damn millenials.

Classical_Liberal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1171
  • Age: 47
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2016, 11:24:37 AM »
Some of the numbers in that article though.  Holy shit.  Only 19% of snake people think a military intervention if the government isn't doing its job is illegitimate?  WTF.  That's almost as shocking as the fact that the number used to be only 43%.  I mean, JFC, 100%, everyone should say 100%.  I can see 90%, because you ask only ten people and one misunderstood, but, Christ.

I think the responses may have been tainted by how the question was phrased. They dont report how it was exactly phrased in the poll, but I initially read this to mean; should the government be overthrown by military means if it isn't doing its job.  There is a stark difference between a populace overthrowing a very bad government with violence (which I would consider supporting)  vs military dictatorship (which I would never consider supporting).

That's how I initially read it as well.

Are there historical trends of this the first option happening? In all the examples I can think of, the overthrowing of a government with violence has only elected people who tend strongly towards dictatorship.

Damn millenials.

I think we are living in one of those historical examples.  If memory serves, soon after France followed.

If you mean a historical example of overthrowing a bad democracy, theoretically that is done with voting & legal changes to gov't through the electorate.  No violence needed.  Unless the vote isn't followed, then, technically, it's not a democracy.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2016, 05:35:07 AM »
Following, and probably will have more to say later, even though I've avoided politics threads over the last 5-6 months, this one is hopefully general enough it won't fall into a * show.  Don't make me regret this, people.  ;)

Disclaimer: Haven't read the article yet, but added to my Pocket account, probably will read in the next 1-3 days, and may have more to say then.  For now, this is my pre-reading opinion.

"Is Democracy dying?"

Yes.

A little.

For now.

The world appears to be going backwards with regards to progress in multiple areas.

Scary, authoritarian leaders have come into power, or are coming into power, in places like:
The US: Trump
Russia: Putin
The Philippines: Duterte
Poland: Kaczynski
Turkey: Erdogan
Germany: Petry

Of course, there are places that were already less democratic, but these are formerly free democratic nations stepping towards more authoritarianism and totalitarianism.

The path towards justice isn't a straight one.  As the stock market moves up and down, but trends up over a long timeline, I think the same is true for freedom and truth.  We're on a downward zag right now.  Hopefully it won't be a prolonged one.  I have faith that we'll eventually get back to an upswing, and surpass where we are now in terms of liberty and civil rights.  It just won't be a smooth journey.

I will fight for what I can, in the meantime, and not worry about the rest.  I don't know if it will be better for my children, or their children, or if it will take longer, but all I can do is hope, and work.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5278
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2016, 05:44:53 AM »

I think we are living in one of those historical examples.  If memory serves, soon after France followed.

If you mean a historical example of overthrowing a bad democracy, theoretically that is done with voting & legal changes to gov't through the electorate.  No violence needed.  Unless the vote isn't followed, then, technically, it's not a democracy.

Touche! :D

But if what you postulate is true (Democracies are best changed nonviolently through the system- which I would agree with, personally) then it is still concerning that so many people in such democratic countries view military intervention as a viable option - perhaps the terms are what throw me off. While I might support the dissolution of a completely unworkable government, I interpret military overthrow as replacing them violently with the head of said military - and this is what lead me to think of such poor, recent, historical examples.


Classical_Liberal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1171
  • Age: 47
Re: Is Democracy dying?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2016, 01:31:28 PM »

I think we are living in one of those historical examples.  If memory serves, soon after France followed.

If you mean a historical example of overthrowing a bad democracy, theoretically that is done with voting & legal changes to gov't through the electorate.  No violence needed.  Unless the vote isn't followed, then, technically, it's not a democracy.

Touche! :D

But if what you postulate is true (Democracies are best changed nonviolently through the system- which I would agree with, personally) then it is still concerning that so many people in such democratic countries view military intervention as a viable option - perhaps the terms are what throw me off. While I might support the dissolution of a completely unworkable government, I interpret military overthrow as replacing them violently with the head of said military - and this is what lead me to think of such poor, recent, historical examples.

Yes, it is interesting, and scary.  An untested theory on your point:

Democracy is inherently will of the majority.  This, unfortunately, can work to repress minorities.  Now, if small minorities have only slightly different views than the majority, it's probably not too bad for them.  Certainly better than living in an authoritarian regime. Even if their interests are significantly different than the majority, a small minority often goes unheard and feels their hands are tied. However, if those views continue to diverge over time and the minority population begins to increase to a large minority (say 1/3 or more of the population), the potential for social problems increase.  Policy is written to majority rule, which is now highly divergent from the large minority opinion, which happens to make up large geographic & social swaths of the population. The large minority may not "feel" like they are living in a democracy at all; desperate times call for desperate measures?

PS I'm kind of thinking in a science vs religion and all the resulting views, rather than race or class.