The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: OurTown on November 28, 2018, 11:03:03 AM
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I am just brokenhearted reading the stories on the MMM divorce thread. Obviously, divorce is devastating emotionally and financially. I have considerable personal experience in this area myself, and there was plenty of blame to go around.
For those of us who are currently married Mustachians, what steps do you take to invest in your marriage? What do you do that is positive and proactive to increase marital satisfaction and happiness and/or to alleviate or mitigate discord?
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Date yo' wife!
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Date yo' wife!
This is a large part of it. I actively avoid becoming complacent and taking DW's love for granted, by striving to impress her as eagerly as I tried to when we first started dating. I also view love as a verb not a noun.
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There is a concept in Stoicism that you should learn to desire what you already have. It was explained pretty well in William Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life.
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Date yo' wife!
#1 Always and I mean always discuss issues openly and honestly trying to understand your spouses view in that conversation.
#2 Don't do anything out of spite or being passive aggressive. Instead follow rule #1
#3 Don't go to bed angry with each. Following rule #1
#4 Schedule date nights. Real dates when you and your spouse are away from family and kids. Sure you may need to pay for a babysitter, but a babysitter is much less expensive than a divorce. Parents need their alone time.
#5 Make sure to address your partners sexual needs. This may require rule number #1
#6 Do your best to stay healthy and in shape. No one is expecting Duane "The Rock" Johnson or a Victoria Secret model. Just do your best to not let yourself go. Its good for your health, your sex life, and your marriage.
#7 Never forget about rule #1
So far this has worked for us although we have only been together for 10 years
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Tolstoy said it best in the opening lines of "Anna Karenina": All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.
I think that there are two fundamental parts of all happy marriages that are intertwined;
1) Compatibility
2) Communication
So, if you can find a person who is compatible with you (and you with them!) and can then communicate well with this person, then you've gone a long way to being/staying happily married.
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@EnjoyIt on your Rule #6, I've noticed that I get a year older every year and so does she! That being said, there are certain things I can do to not slide into becoming an unattractive slug, like keeping the excess weight off. There is also personal care (grooming) and halfway decent clothing. That last one may be a little counter to being a Mustachian. I wear a suit to work every day, but my at home clothes were old and ratty. She noticed. When I lost the weight I did drop a few bucks at for new casual clothes for at home wear. I didn't go all crazy spendy-pants, but I think it is worth it to be a little mindful of appearance & attractiveness with the better half.
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@EnjoyIt on your Rule #6, I've noticed that I get a year older every year and so does she! That being said, there are certain things I can do to not slide into becoming an unattractive slug, like keeping the excess weight off. There is also personal care (grooming) and halfway decent clothing. That last one may be a little counter to being a Mustachian. I wear a suit to work every day, but my at home clothes were old and ratty. She noticed. When I lost the weight I did drop a few bucks at for new casual clothes for at home wear. I didn't go all crazy spendy-pants, but I think it is worth it to be a little mindful of appearance & attractiveness with the better half.
Honestly, I agree with you. It is worth spending a little extra money on your appearance. Sure we all get older and we expect our skin to sag and wrinkles to develop. But to frankly give up and let ourselves go is a very undesirable trait. I would rather spend an extra couple of hundred a year on being healthier and looking better than a few thousand on lawyers or tens of thousands on doctor bills and medication. We are playing the odds by spending money now to prevent more expensive future outlays.
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I like what @EnjoyIt said. I'd definitely add that you really need to make sure you're compatible though. Having similar values and morals is extremely important to start off with. Compromise is also another good one. You both need to really figure out the things that really matter to you and if they matter less to the other person then they can compromise. I always say pick your battles. Make sure it's something you really need to win, otherwise find a compromise. There really is very rarely anything that either of us are that passionate about that we can't agree on. If so we find a good compromise.
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There is a concept in Stoicism that you should learn to desire what you already have. It was explained pretty well in William Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life.
Ha, I just read that book not long ago and currently my wife and son are reading it.
I'll be perfectly honest and acknowledge it's tough being with the same person for many years. But I think we both contribute to our marriage in ways we each appreciate and that really helps. For instance my wife is fantastic with our kids, particularly our teenager, who at times really struggles due to his severe ADHD. She has a lot more patience than I do and I have acknowledged that many times. I also appreciate that she was willing to make some changes in our lives that put us on a path to FIRE and actually let me retire last year while she keeps working. We aren't perfect people but finding the positive in your spouse and acknowledging it, I think, is a huge positive.
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-Be college educated and be born to college educated parents. Be born to married parents. Avoid Adverse Childhood Events. Have all these apply to your spouse.
-Be white.
-Be a millenial and not a boomer.
-Get married between the ages of 22 and 32. If you're religious, do not live together before marriage. If you're not, DO live together before marriage.
-Be the type of people who have a large, cheap wedding.
-Be wealthy.
-Avoid infertility, miscarriage, and the death of children. Pick your children so they don't have developmental disabilities.
-Avoid serious injuries and chronic illnesses.
Congratulations, you now have much better odds of staying married!
Tongue in cheek aside. What can we do that we actually CAN control?
For one, watch for "danger signs": hopefully everyone has read about the "four horsemen" that the Gottman Institute talks about? Criticisim, contempt, stonewalling, and defensiveness. https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/ (https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/) If any of these are present in your marriage... well, I guess try counseling (either alone or with your partner), but it's technically a predictive factor already.
My husband and I have been dealing with years of infertility now. Along with that comes a lot of stress but also an insane price tag. That could easily be a pretty disastrous recipe. Especially since, with testing, we can say clearly that it is MY fault and not my husband's fault. I can't take ANY credit here, but he doesn't blame me and very much sees it as our problem to get through together. We did agree early on that if we start to feel like we're handling it poorly, we'll go to counseling because it's a known contributor to divorce and unhappy marriages.
One of the things we've been trying very hard to do is not have anything be set in stone. Life is clearly not going as planned (see above). So, when we realized we were both miserable where we were? We just sold out suburban home, moved back to a city where we know far more people, and downsized. We had planned on that being our forever home where we raised our children. But being able to say, "hey, this isn't working anymore" and have it be okay and a team effort to resolve... that's big I think.
I don't have "advice". I can just say what we're doing. Only time will tell if that works, obviously. But a lot of demographic factors are in our favor, and that paired with being very committed to constantly working together to define and achieve our dreams gives me hope we'll stay solid through whatever life throws at us.
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PTF. Thanks to those who comment!
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I think there's a lot of good discussion above.
I like EnjoyIt's list. And I think that yes, appreciating/desiring what you already have is important.
There's a drive in our society to always be questioning whether we have enough of/the best of something. That's part of the reason a lot of us are here on the MMM forum -- to try to resist that way of thinking, and recognize the huge limitations of it.
Some people seem to have been wired (by society, or something else) to be looking for more, and to be dissatisfied. To focus on a partner's shortcomings, or a relationship's shortcomings. Because let's face it, no relationship has everything.
Having the good fortune to have chosen a spouse who isn't propelled by that drive is a key component. Or rather, a couple having the good fortune for neither of them to be propelled for that drive. The hard thing about relationships is, you can only control yourself. You can't make someone else realize how good things are. You can't make someone else want to try. You can't make someone else feel a sense of commitment to you and to the marriage. I've been married to someone who didn't feel those things, and let me tell you, it is awful. You feel so helpless, and so frustrated, and like you're in a car that's driving a direction you don't want it to go but you can't do anything about it. You just have to sit there, watching as you go down that path, and wonder/worry about the impending crash.
I very much feel for people who are in that situation. Thankfully, I came out the other side, and now I'm with someone I feel sure of. It's a great feeling. And I'm all the more grateful for being super-aware of how lucky I am because of the last relationship.
On a more practical level, communication is key, but sometimes even individuals' best attempts to communicate get lost in translation. I'm not much of a self-help person, but the book The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman was truly one of the best books I've read about understanding how people communicate the giving and receiving of love, and how/why sometimes one person's loving act is another person's cop-out or inattentive, superficial gesture. I think it's a great tool to help couples understand how to communicate better.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OICLVBI
And, this book -- Uncoupling, by Diane Vaughan -- taught me an immense amount about turning points in intimate relationships. I read it right as I was separating from my ex-husband. In fact, I want to read it again sometime soon, now that I'm not in that particular head space and can see it from more of an objective distance. I'd recommend it to anyone who'd like to think about their conduct in relationships, and how people's intimacy evolves or devolves, and why.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679730028
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-Be a millenial and not a boomer.
I appreciate the honesty about the statistical risk factors, but I'm curious about this one. Surely boomers are more likely to get divorced because they've simply had more time for their marriages to sour? The oldest millenials are not yet 40. Rising divorce rates among older people may be generation-specific, or it may just be that it's more common to get divorced at 50 than it used to be and millenials aren't there yet.
I am not married, so I'm in this thread out of curiosity rather than experience. I am interested in what factors make long term relationships continue to work even years into them. Seven years into my partnership, I am certain we are outliers among relationships started at age 18.
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-Be a millenial and not a boomer.
I appreciate the honesty about the statistical risk factors, but I'm curious about this one. Surely boomers are more likely to get divorced because they've simply had more time for their marriages to sour? The oldest millenials are not yet 40. Rising divorce rates among older people may be generation-specific, or it may just be that it's more common to get divorced at 50 than it used to be and millenials aren't there yet.
I am not married, so I'm in this thread out of curiosity rather than experience. I am interested in what factors make long term relationships continue to work even years into them. Seven years into my partnership, I am certain we are outliers among relationships started at age 18.
It is comparative relative to duration of marriage, I believe. And it's an issue of the other demographic factors. Here's an article that explains it well: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/09/millennials-divorce-baby-boomers/571282/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/09/millennials-divorce-baby-boomers/571282/)
Basically, among boomers much larger swaths of people actually got married. Among millenials, those at highest risk of divorce classically (low education, low SES, minority status, premarital childbirth, teen parenthood) are just less likely to marry. Marriage is now a privileged thing, generally. So the people getting married among millenials are just the people who are less likely to divorce.
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Obviously the only thing that is in your control is what you do/think/feel/say. You don't control your spouse and you can't "make" your spouse be happy and content. You can, I think, have some influence over your spouse's happiness by how you conduct yourself and whether you are making any kind of effort to meet his or her needs. It's better if you do that in a non-selfish way, as opposed to having a covert contract where you think I'm going to give her "x" and in exchange she must give me "y."
I'm familiar with the "four horsemen" material as well as the "love languages" material mentioned above, both of those are great resources.
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This is a tough one. I've been married 16 years and we have 3 kids. One of which was borne our of wedlock so we've been together about 20 years.
You are going to have some problems and I'm not sure how to avoid that but I think the ideas in Gottman are really good. I also read Schnarch when we had our first (and only) marital crisis. The problem with Schnarch is I don't think he is really protecting against divorce but pushing for either divorce or a functional relationship.
The way I invest in my marriage is by doing things with my wife and typically they are little things. We wake up and have a coffee and a chat together. We typically watch a TV show together each night. We typically do something on the weekend together but it's typically little such as going for a walk or something similar. I think you have to be on the same page in relation to finances as well.
I think though that a successful marriage requires both parties to be willing to compromise and not to go after the next thing that is appealing. I also think people have to accept their lives as it is. So although I do things to try and create a positive relationship I think that a lasting marriage is more about both people just deciding to stick together and work through issues.
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Among my friends that married between 25-30 they are all still married. My friends that married young like me twice are now in their 3rd marriages and have been for the past 20 years. We are boomers at 64. I think it would be hard to be with the same person for 60-70 years. So much changes. I have read about some very long term marriages ending upon retiring but don’t know anyone it’s happened too. My DH and I have fun and he makes me laugh every day. We do some things together and some separate. We have our couple friends and our own friends.
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As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?
This is my worst nightmare, so I take my sweet time in relationships - some women may not have the patience for me, which also worries me. I want to settle down at some point with an amazing woman, but what if they love me (or think they love me) a lot sooner than I'm able to reciprocate that same feeling?
People my age seem to understand less nowadays that not everything is new and exciting all the time, this life isn't a movie, and problems can be solved with honest communication. I almost feel like I'm in the minority in wanting to handle relationships in a mature, realistic way.
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As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?
Social media has been an affliction to our society. Particularly things like instagram, Facebook, and twitter. People only sharing the best of their lives and hiding the worst. From the outside it appears that everyones visible life is just so much better than your own real life. Its is so sad.
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As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?
Social media has been an affliction to our society. Particularly things like instagram, Facebook, and twitter. People only sharing the best of their lives and hiding the worst. From the outside it appears that everyones visible life is just so much better than your own real life. Its is so sad.
Yeah, exactly. I won't lie, I have Instagram and Facebook. And although they are both good for certain things, they both annoy the hell out of me. People are abusing the shit out of them and it literally makes people insane. And it ruins relationships.
Kind of along the same line - I've tried dating apps before just to meet some different people - I've met 1 person I was interested in from a dating app. And I've tried them off and on for like 3 years maybe. It's just a game to most people and creates totally unrealistic expectations.
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As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?
Social media has been an affliction to our society. Particularly things like instagram, Facebook, and twitter. People only sharing the best of their lives and hiding the worst. From the outside it appears that everyones visible life is just so much better than your own real life. Its is so sad.
I think that's a big reason why folks are so surprised Pete is getting divorced. I had a High School friend who finally got married 7-8 years ago. She used to post on Facebook about all their travel adventures, how great their life was etc. Never a single bad thing to say. They didn't have kids and both had great jobs making a lot of money. I actually met her husband and he was nice as could be. I got rid of Facebook some time ago but heard through some friends they are now divorced.
I think the MMM forums are about as social as it gets for me.
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I know one time my aunt commented on my FB about how good a Mom I was being. I told her very truthfully that it was very, very easy to be an awesome Mom on FB. A little harder in real life!
I don't see FB as a place to post any personal woes, particularly marital dirty laundry. For me, FB is just a place to share fun things happening in my life and occasionally ask for help or whatever. I certainly don't think of it as a depiction of my real life.
Sent from my LG-K373 using Tapatalk
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
Curious about others' experience with this as well. As mentioned above, I'm not married, but I'm in a 7-year relationship with an atheist as a... wishy-washy Christian. It has not been an issue for us, but admittedly I'm not the most devout. Obviously there will be more negotiating if we ever have children together, though we've already discussed and agreed on a macro-level approach in that regard.
Besides that, I think the biggest concern it raises is that if we ever get married some of my distant relatives will be startled by the limited religious content of the ceremony.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
I think this is a bigger issue if you have kids than if you don't, since it gets into "how do we raise them/do we baptize" type questions. Without kids, it can be a live and let live arrangement.
Not that I can talk, I'm an atheist who married an atheist.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
I'll be honest and say before my wife I dated a couple different super religious women and didn't particularly enjoy it. It's my own anecdotal evidence though. My grandma, 98 years old, has been a devout Christian attending Church every Sunday her entire life. My grandfather I don't believe ever stepped foot in a Church unless it was for spacial occasions. They were married just shy of 50 years before he passed.
My wife and I both share similar views about religion now. Basically we aren't religious.
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I don't see FB as a place to post any personal woes, particularly marital dirty laundry. For me, FB is just a place to share fun things happening in my life and occasionally ask for help or whatever. I certainly don't think of it as a depiction of my real life.
Exactly!
Sure, some people might be carefully curating what they post on Facebook, but I find it overly cynical to say that everyone on it is trying to present their lives as perfect. Many people have not only their closest friends and family on FB but also distant relatives and acquaintances and colleagues, etc. If I want to confide about personal stuff I'd want to talk to someone I'm close to more privately, not announce it to everyone I've ever added on the platform and turn my life into some kind of online drama series and have people gossiping. And it's not just the bad stuff! I mean, I'm not going to post something like "Just had the best sex ever!!" - which, if one's theory about FB is that it's all about showing off, well, then lots of people would be posting that. But they're not (or at least not in my circles), so the more plausible theory is that most regular people are just drawing their own lines about what they personally feel is appropriate to share with their social groups.
Having said that, occasionally I do see people on Facebook who seem to be trying a little too hard, and I do have a pet peeve about Instagram hashtags like #liveauthentic etc. used earnestly. That usually indicates to me someone is actually intentionally making their life seem better than others, which ironically is not so authentic. But I don't think it's a huge issue with the people in my social groups, and if it was, I'd probably do some unfollowing.
I won't lie, I have Instagram and Facebook. And although they are both good for certain things, they both annoy the hell out of me. People are abusing the shit out of them and it literally makes people insane. And it ruins relationships.
That sounds pretty bad if that happens often, unless that is an exaggeration, perhaps you should associate with more grounded people if you're hanging out with people who are making their lives a mess with social platforms?
I have people from the age range of 20s - 70s on my Facebook, and I do see a bit of a difference in how the younger ones use it vs the older ones, in my circle at least. The younger ones do tend to post about their relationships more, in regards to anniversary, gifts, and how great their partner is or whatever, while the older ones don't really? I can see how that kind of thing can lead to observers thinking that someone's relationship is better than theirs. But you just have to remember that these are mere snapshots of someone's life that can never tell the whole story.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
This is my DW and I. My wife is Mormon and growing up she really wanted to have a church family. We meet in college and I had gone to various churches and in general was trying to find some meaning in life. Short story we dated and I was impressed with the community in the church and converted. We had a temple wedding and I was very involved in the church. I feel back into my doubts from early years and eventually left the church and I am an atheist.
This obviously caused some issues. There were a couple of things that helped us work through this. We did go to counseling but it frankly didn't help. The biggest thing was mutual respect. That was never an issue with my wife but after leaving the church I initially wanted to prove I was right. Understanding that her religious beliefs were not a threat to our marriage went a long way. Also I understood that this issue was something that had been important to my wife her entire life and since I was the one that changed I would need to make some concessions if the marriage would last.
Overall the concessions are pretty small. She doesn't want me to drink in front of the kids or her. Our kids are being raised in the church. We are open with the kids and both agree that they will make their own decisions.
We have now been married for 18 years and I believe we love each other more than the say we got married.
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We're only 10 years in, so take everything I say with a massive grain of salt:
1. We laugh a lot.
2. We do fun things together, even when we're busy or stressed out.
3. We do fun things separately. I think this is pretty key. I have my book club and a social club and hobbies that DH doesn't share, and he has lots of interests, hobbies, things he reads about, and fitness pursuits I don't share. We talk to each other to recap what we've learned or experienced and I think it keeps things fresh and keep us interested in our own lives and each other.
4. Never stop working on yourself. Marriage is like the ultimate self-improvement boot camp, but I think some people have a tendency to focus on their partner's perceived deficiencies instead of their own. Fixing yourself is possible but fixing someone else is not.
5. No nagging. Ever!
6. Forgive quickly and completely, barring something catastrophic to trust. Never bring up past hurts or issues in current disagreements.
7. Don't keep score.
8. Stay attractive to your partner, within reason.
9. Keep dating and romancing! My husband leaves me a cute note every single morning. Sometimes it's just "love you, can't wait for the weekend!" but it means the world to me that he's never stopped. I still plan surprises for him, etc.
10. Give attention when it's asked for. So, even if I don't particularly want to hear another work story, if my husband starts talking to me I put down what I'm doing and listen. I think being dismissive is damaging over the longterm.
11. Remember you're on the same team, especially when shit hits the fan life-wise.
12. Communicate in a way that resolves issues. Lots of couples talk about their differences over and over, but never come to a real conclusion or delve below the surface level issues.
13. Remember your partner is an individual person with their own feelings and needs. Your way is not the only right way, and neither is theirs.
14. Probably the biggest IMO, but choose your partner very carefully. Compatibility goes a really long way, so does figuring out all the big life questions way in advance of getting married. Interests change, but general personality and approach to life seem to be more consistent.
15. Don't assume. Don't unnecessarily read into minor comments or body language. If you need clarification just ask! You are not a mind reader.
16. Remember that no one but you is responsible for your feelings and overall sense of well being.
17. Let the little shit go. Not everything warrants a massive discussion. Sometimes people are just snippy or tired or particular about weird things. Roll with it, it's not a big deal.
18. Be flexible about the future, the person you marry will change and so will you. It's ok to revise and revisit stuff.
19. Practice gratitude for your partner and your life in general. Never forget why you fell in love and chose this person! Thank them, always, for the things they do. Don't take them for granted.
20. Be the partner you want.
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Not married, but in a nearly decade long relationship. We prioritize our relationship above practically everything else, and definitely do stuff to keep it strong. Off the top of my head:
1. We're both big into problem-solving, so if there's a problem we're generally both pretty eager to find and implement a solution asap.
2. We're also both extremely direct and straightforward, so we don't have miscommunication issues - zero mind reading is required.
3. We do a lot of activities and date stuff, like go to movies, or go hiking.
4. We have home-cooked meals together every single day.
5. We have very distinct roles and domains, which avoids the head-butting and keeping score that some couples do. We both hold up our end of the bargain, and do a good job of the things we're responsible for.
6. We talk a LOT, and spend a lot of time together. We don't have television service of any kind, which probably helps with that.
7. We do nice things for each other pretty often. For example, I bake him treats a lot, since he loves every kind of baked good.
8. We really encourage each other in all areas of life. If I'm ever thinking about trying to cook something new and second-guessing, he shows up with all the ingredients and "Oh it sounds so delicious! MMMM Make it! Yum!". When he wasn't sure if he should freelance full time last summer, I encouraged him to just do it, and quit his day job, since I knew it would be better for him.
We also have the benefit of just having extremely similar personalities and preferences. We both like home cooked food way better then restaurants. We both like small space living. Neither of us like partying or alcohol or anything like that. We both value quality of life a lot. Neither of us are career or status oriented. We have the same travel style. It just all works very well.
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5. No nagging. Ever!
I'm curious about this one. Does nagging just involve using a certain nag-y tone of voice? Surely it doesn't extend to, like, requesting a household chore be done? I think a lot of negotiating who's doing what happens out loud in my partnership, but never in a frustrated tone of voice, and usually neither of us has to ask more than once. I consider it part of healthy communication. To be fair, though, we've only lived together a few months.
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5. No nagging. Ever!
I'm curious about this one. Does nagging just involve using a certain nag-y tone of voice? Surely it doesn't extend to, like, requesting a household chore be done? I think a lot of negotiating who's doing what happens out loud in my partnership, but never in a frustrated tone of voice, and usually neither of us has to ask more than once. I consider it part of healthy communication. To be fair, though, we've only lived together a few months.
Oh I think request are totally fine. I think of nagging as hounding someone, repeatedly, to do or not do the same thing over and over again. Like if I ask my husband to pick something up, I ask once and just trust that he'll do it at some point. I'd consider it nagging if I was like "hey did you get X yet?" "so when are you getting X?" "I thought you said you'd get X for me" "where is X? "Why haven't you gone to get X yet?" etc.
Does that make sense?
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This comment isn't generally well received as it can come off as sort of victim-blaming. But I think the most important thing is actually to invest in your pre-marriage. Don't rush. Be rational. Discuss the big topics and don't bury your head in the sand when incompatibilities come up. Always be okay walking away, even from someone you love, if there are fundamental incompatibilities that you can't hammer out clearly. (Things like wanting kids or religion, but even things like how to spend time with families during holidays. And certainly financial incompatibilities. In 17 years of marriage, DH and I never once had a fight or even an argument about money. And that's not because of some super-power level conflict resolution. It's because we are extremely financially compatible. )
Certainly these things are fool-proof. But I'd say that building the solid foundation before the wedding even occurs is really the most important thing. And the continuing to talk about these things as they come up and as life changes. I *never* would have said that I wanted to be a SAH wife, so it's not something we discussed. Life happened and it became necessary if DH and I wanted to live on the same continent. So we discussed it then and were both very brutally honest about our feelings and fears and concerns and priorities.
Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something. I need time to feel my feelings and process them. And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them. If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us. Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process. So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
Perhaps the single biggest thing I think we've done is just give each other the benefit of the doubt in pretty much all things. If he says something that hurts my feelings, I know is character and thus am confident it wasn't his intention. If he's doing something that makes me feel something negative, I assume he either has very good reason because otherwise he would never choose to do that, or he has innocently failed to see some implication or consideration. So I approach things from that perspective, and never from the perspective of him being selfish or intentionally hurtful or mean.
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My wife and I are 27 years in. We've weathered a special needs child, military deployments, moves etc for a long time.
We work hard to put the other first and we try to follow many of the ideas others have made about going to bed angry etc.
We both got a lot out of a study we did many years ago called the Five Love Languages. The bottom line is finding out how your spouse feels loved since all of us are different in what we value from a spouse. It is a christian study, but there isn't a lot of preaching, it is more a series of discussions to find out what your spouse most wants/needs from you as far as affirmation.
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I am just brokenhearted reading the stories on the MMM divorce thread.
Can you point to where this thread is? thx
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I am just brokenhearted reading the stories on the MMM divorce thread.
Can you point to where this thread is? thx
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/mmm-is-now-divorced-from-mrs-mm/250/?topicseen
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20 years together/12 years married. I just married someone I really enjoy and like to spend time with, and the rough edges on our few areas of disagreement have been polished off over the years until our relationship seems very easy. That said, I hope we’re still in the early years of our relationship and that we get 40 more years together. I only have a few tips: schedule sex so it is a priority and be kind to each other. Don’t threaten divorce ever during a disagreement, even as a joke.
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something. I need time to feel my feelings and process them. And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them. If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us. Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process. So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
+1
Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.
I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something. I need time to feel my feelings and process them. And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them. If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us. Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process. So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
+1
Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.
I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.
Definitely agree. I think people underestimate how important sleep is to emotional regulation, too. I am not a thoughtful, patient person when I need to sleep. We're all secretly giant toddlers walking around, and we need to 'parent' ourselves. You're not going to reason well if you're tired or hungry. So I much prefer "sleep on it" as advice!
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Frequent and savage fart battles.
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something. I need time to feel my feelings and process them. And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them. If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us. Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process. So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
+1
Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.
I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.
Definitely agree. I think people underestimate how important sleep is to emotional regulation, too. I am not a thoughtful, patient person when I need to sleep. We're all secretly giant toddlers walking around, and we need to 'parent' ourselves. You're not going to reason well if you're tired or hungry. So I much prefer "sleep on it" as advice!
Yep, I agree completely. I'm also all for using alternative forms of communication. My husband and I have, at various points during high intensity disagreements/issues, conducted our conversations over email. I know this sounds odd, but my mind works much faster in conversation than DH's, and he would often get flustered and not be able to put things together in the moment. On the other hand I'm terrible at conflict and saying anything critical of him, so it's often easier for me to bring up sensitive things like that in an email where I can really carefully phrase what I'm feeling and what I need. It works very well for us!
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something. I need time to feel my feelings and process them. And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them. If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us. Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process. So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
+1
Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.
I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.
Definitely agree. I think people underestimate how important sleep is to emotional regulation, too. I am not a thoughtful, patient person when I need to sleep. We're all secretly giant toddlers walking around, and we need to 'parent' ourselves. You're not going to reason well if you're tired or hungry. So I much prefer "sleep on it" as advice!
Yep, I agree completely. I'm also all for using alternative forms of communication. My husband and I have, at various points during high intensity disagreements/issues, conducted our conversations over email. I know this sounds odd, but my mind works much faster in conversation than DH's, and he would often get flustered and not be able to put things together in the moment. On the other hand I'm terrible at conflict and saying anything critical of him, so it's often easier for me to bring up sensitive things like that in an email where I can really carefully phrase what I'm feeling and what I need. It works very well for us!
We totally do this. I'll sit down and write something up, email it (even if we're in the same place), and then discuss it in person after. It creates a really good starting point for us.
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@Bracken_Joy Hah! Glad to know we aren't the only ones :)
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@rdaneel0 your list is gold.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
I'm socially cordial with the religious beliefs of others, but there's personally no way I could be in a serious long-term romantic relationship with someone that was ardently religious (atheist sleeping with an atheist here). It just implies a massive mismatch in priorities to my own.
I'm sure that mindset varies person to person. It should definitely be frankly discussed way the fuck ahead of marriage.
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something. I need time to feel my feelings and process them. And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them. If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us. Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process. So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
+1
Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.
I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.
Definitely agree. I think people underestimate how important sleep is to emotional regulation, too. I am not a thoughtful, patient person when I need to sleep. We're all secretly giant toddlers walking around, and we need to 'parent' ourselves. You're not going to reason well if you're tired or hungry. So I much prefer "sleep on it" as advice!
Yep, I agree completely. I'm also all for using alternative forms of communication. My husband and I have, at various points during high intensity disagreements/issues, conducted our conversations over email. I know this sounds odd, but my mind works much faster in conversation than DH's, and he would often get flustered and not be able to put things together in the moment. On the other hand I'm terrible at conflict and saying anything critical of him, so it's often easier for me to bring up sensitive things like that in an email where I can really carefully phrase what I'm feeling and what I need. It works very well for us!
We totally do this. I'll sit down and write something up, email it (even if we're in the same place), and then discuss it in person after. It creates a really good starting point for us.
When I'm really upset, I'll often write a note/journal entry then read it to Greyman later. I don't talk well when I'm upset, but when I'm upset is when I have all my reasons for being upset in mind. It works better for me to write something out when I'm feeling the feelings, then readdress it when I'm calmer, figure out what the actual problems are that need solving and bring them up at a time when I normally wouldn't bring them up, because then I'm not presently upset!
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Following! Husband and I have been together for almost 6 years and married for 1.5. So far it's been mostly very easy. We read Gottman's "Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" together (while chilling on a beach on our honeymoon, actually) and liked it a lot. Always interested to hear more tips from people further along on the journey.
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something. I need time to feel my feelings and process them. And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them. If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us. Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process. So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
+1
Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.
I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.
In your case maybe it could be, not going to bed angry at each other without at least agreeing that you will discuss it the next day which is what sounds ike you are doing.
What doesn't work is holding in all the anger for months until something small happens and all that previous cooped up anger explodes all over the place. You are arguing about picking up socks when in reality one is pissed off about so many other unresolved issues and nothing really good comes of that argument.
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5. No nagging. Ever!
I'm curious about this one. Does nagging just involve using a certain nag-y tone of voice? Surely it doesn't extend to, like, requesting a household chore be done? I think a lot of negotiating who's doing what happens out loud in my partnership, but never in a frustrated tone of voice, and usually neither of us has to ask more than once. I consider it part of healthy communication. To be fair, though, we've only lived together a few months.
Oh I think request are totally fine. I think of nagging as hounding someone, repeatedly, to do or not do the same thing over and over again. Like if I ask my husband to pick something up, I ask once and just trust that he'll do it at some point. I'd consider it nagging if I was like "hey did you get X yet?" "so when are you getting X?" "I thought you said you'd get X for me" "where is X? "Why haven't you gone to get X yet?" etc.
Does that make sense?
It does make sense. I happen to take kind of a radical point of view that nagging is generally the fault of the person who has failed to do X without repeated requests. ;)
So, there's little nagging in my partnership because we both try to make sure it never becomes necessary for the other person to ask more than once. This doesn't necessarily mean jumping to the other person's every whim - it can also just include an acknowledgement of the request and a promise that it's in the pipeline. But I have unusually strong feelings about this because of the gendered history of nagging as a concept. I recognize my approach doesn't work for everyone. Or maybe it's the naivete of the still-dating!
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
I'm socially cordial with the religious beliefs of others, but there's personally no way I could be in a serious long-term romantic relationship with someone that was ardently religious (atheist sleeping with an atheist here). It just implies a massive mismatch in priorities to my own.
I'm sure that mindset varies person to person. It should definitely be frankly discussed way the fuck ahead of marriage.
I think it depends on the people involved more than the religion. It's possible to be respectful of beliefs without holding them yourself. My wife was a practicing Catholic fifteen years ago, and she's pretty much atheist at this point. I've bounced between pantheism and atheism over the same period. We've never had problems from religious differences, although we've also never really met quite eye to eye on things.
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5. No nagging. Ever!
I'm curious about this one. Does nagging just involve using a certain nag-y tone of voice? Surely it doesn't extend to, like, requesting a household chore be done? I think a lot of negotiating who's doing what happens out loud in my partnership, but never in a frustrated tone of voice, and usually neither of us has to ask more than once. I consider it part of healthy communication. To be fair, though, we've only lived together a few months.
Oh I think request are totally fine. I think of nagging as hounding someone, repeatedly, to do or not do the same thing over and over again. Like if I ask my husband to pick something up, I ask once and just trust that he'll do it at some point. I'd consider it nagging if I was like "hey did you get X yet?" "so when are you getting X?" "I thought you said you'd get X for me" "where is X? "Why haven't you gone to get X yet?" etc.
Does that make sense?
It does make sense. I happen to take kind of a radical point of view that nagging is generally the fault of the person who has failed to do X without repeated requests. ;)
So, there's little nagging in my partnership because we both try to make sure it never becomes necessary for the other person to ask more than once. This doesn't necessarily mean jumping to the other person's every whim - it can also just include an acknowledgement of the request and a promise that it's in the pipeline. But I have unusually strong feelings about this because of the gendered history of nagging as a concept. I recognize my approach doesn't work for everyone. Or maybe it's the naivete of the still-dating!
It could be a personality thing too! Like, my husband is naturally far tidier and cleaner than I am, so if one of us were nagging the other it would be more likely to be him nagging me, haha, my mountain of shoes near the front door is the bane of his existence. I know if he nagged me about it, though, that would probably make me even less likely to try to be neat. I think since he's told me how he likes things and he knows I'm really trying I've actually gotten wayyyyy neater, but if nagging had become a thing we could have spent countless hours arguing over dumb house stuff (with him getting resentful and me feeling like I'm being treated like a child). But yes, it probably is usually the reverse gender-wise. There are so many reports of women doing like, all of the household stuff while working full time, and guys next to nothing. We may absolutely be the exception to the rule in this case, and it may be that some people don't mind repeated requests the way we both would!
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Nagging is poison. So is fighting. Just my opinion.
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Nagging is poison.
I think we all agree on that. I just personally think the solution is a little more than a simple "don't nag!" It also involves being a partner who doesn't require nagging.
Edited for grammar thing that was bugging me.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
My wife was very religious when we met. Still a Christian but not as “active.” I’ve basically always been agnostic/atheist.
We are both respectful of each other and I’m not one of those idiotic atheists who sits around trying to tell Christians God is fake. It’s those people which make it hard to even call myself atheist due to the stigma.
We *gasp* are just respectful of each other’s beliefs and it’s never caused the slightest ruffle in our marriage.
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something. I need time to feel my feelings and process them. And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them. If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us. Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process. So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
+1
Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.
I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.
In your case maybe it could be, not going to bed angry at each other without at least agreeing that you will discuss it the next day which is what sounds ike you are doing.
What doesn't work is holding in all the anger for months until something small happens and all that previous cooped up anger explodes all over the place. You are arguing about picking up socks when in reality one is pissed off about so many other unresolved issues and nothing really good comes of that argument.
Agreed. But, that is too much nuance for some people.
For example, I was pretty upset and couldn't talk about the issue until I calmed down, which would be the next day (or two). My girlfriend at the time didn't want 'to go to sleep angry', which meant that she wasn't too interested in waiting, or compromising on the issue at hand. Which all made it even more frustrating for me. Needless to say, our relationship didn't last.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
I am a non-believer, and he is a wishy washy Catholic. It is not a problem as we have been married 30 years. But then, we do not have children. We dont have to worry about the religious education of our dogs. They are theists and think we are gods.
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There is nagging over small things and nagging over important things. If you are nagging about something important, let's say your partner has a substance abuse issue or drinks to excess, then it's the issue that is the problem not the nagging. But when your partner has a major issue that is harmful to the marriage, it is your partner's issue to solve, and the nagging won't actually help. In fact, the nagging is a negative because it gives your partner something to whine about rather than addressing his/her own major issue.
If you are nagging over small things, really wtf? Maybe you think it's not fair that your spouse doesn't do his/her share of the chores, or doesn't load the dishwasher right, or whatever, but is it worth it to prove a point when you are chipping away at relationship satisfaction every day with the nagging? I don't think so.
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There is nagging over small things and nagging over important things. If you are nagging about something important, let's say your partner has a substance abuse issue or drinks to excess, then it's the issue that is the problem not the nagging. But when your partner has a major issue that is harmful to the marriage, it is your partner's issue to solve, and the nagging won't actually help. In fact, the nagging is a negative because it gives your partner something to whine about rather than addressing his/her own major issue.
If you are nagging over small things, really wtf? Maybe you think it's not fair that your spouse doesn't do his/her share of the chores, or doesn't load the dishwasher right, or whatever, but is it worth it to prove a point when you are chipping away at relationship satisfaction every day with the nagging? I don't think so.
Hopefully if your partner has a substance abuse problem your intervention/support goes beyond nagging.
I don't think a partner not doing their share of chores is a small thing. But I agree nagging isn't a good way to solve it. I believe in communicating openly and often even about the small things, so sometimes it includes a "Hey I cleared the table, would you mind wiping down the stove?" I consider this a fair request, but some might consider it nagging, idk.
My point is more that a "never ever nag!" rule makes some people feel like they can't even make those requests, because it strays too close. Early in my relationship I felt like I wasn't allowed to ask for those kinds of contributions for fear of being a nag. But we've matured, and before we moved in together we had a conversation agreeing that we were going to do our best to split chores evenly, and that we both understood this agreement might need to be revisited, revised, or reemphasized. We don't keep score, but it does involve regular "how about I do x and you do y" type check-ins.
I just don't believe in not discussing the distribution of the chores. I don't think discussing is the same thing as nagging, but the difference might just be that the conversation is two-sided.
Sorry if I'm sidetracking this conversation.
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Nagging is poison.
I think we all agree on that. I just personally think the solution is a little more than a simple "don't nag!" It also involves being a partner who doesn't require nagging.
Edited for grammar thing that was bugging me.
@Tass What you said here is part of why I think some of the other habits I mentioned are so important. I do personally think not nagging is important for both parties, because it can be easy to nag just because you/your partner want something done a certain way or on a certain timeline, when it doesn't actually matter that much. But aside from not nagging, I think it's even more important to be really really choosy. I think if you pick someone who is reasonable and hard working and who doesn't take you for granted and who really and truly tries to do what makes you happy and what's right...then I feel like there's really no place for nagging. On the other hand, if stuff you (not literal you, but general you) request is consistently ignored or if your partner consistently says they will do things they don't do...then I would say your partner was maybe not the best choice.
I think being the kind of partner you would want to be with is vital and that not nagging or being overly critical is part of that, but I don't think any amount of good relationship habits can compensate for choosing someone you're not compatible with or who is inconsiderate, lazy, sexist, etc.
ETA: And I agree that discussions are not the same as nagging.
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@rdaneel0 your list is gold.
:) Thanks, haha, I guess only time will tell if I'm right! lol.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
I think this is a bigger issue if you have kids than if you don't, since it gets into "how do we raise them/do we baptize" type questions. Without kids, it can be a live and let live arrangement.
Not that I can talk, I'm an atheist who married an atheist.
I can talk about this. i am an atheist who married a devout evangelical baptist almost 20 years ago and we have two children together. There are no generalizations one can make regarding the impact differing regious views has on marriage. That said, I can tell you my specific situation. Despite, the radically polarized religious views of myself and wife, religion has generally not been a problem for us, even regarding children. We are both respectful of each others views and because she feels much more strongly about her religion than I do about non-religion, I've let her raise the children according to her doctrines (e.g. baptism, sunday church, etc.). That said, the children are not ignorant to my views and over the years they have incrementally appreciated and understood what atheism is. Far more of a problem for us than religion, is the subject of money.
I would liek to add that I think this is a great thread and reflects one of the more under-developed concepts/principles in mustachianism, the concept of investing in marriage. Not only to derive happiness, but even from a cold calculating fiscal perspective. MMM got the "invest in your health and it will off in spades" concept down, but to the best of my knowledge, he never really addressed the invest in your marriage concept on the blog. There is a wealth of information and advice and utility that can be drawn from such exploration.
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One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.
I think this is a bigger issue if you have kids than if you don't, since it gets into "how do we raise them/do we baptize" type questions. Without kids, it can be a live and let live arrangement.
Not that I can talk, I'm an atheist who married an atheist.
I can talk about this. i am an atheist who married a devout evangelical baptist almost 20 years ago and we have two children together. There are no generalizations one can make regarding the impact differing regious views has on marriage. That said, I can tell you my specific situation. Despite, the radically polarized religious views of myself and wife, religion has generally not been a problem for us, even regarding children. We are both respectful of each others views and because she feels much more strongly about her religion than I do about non-religion, I've let her raise the children according to her doctrines (e.g. baptism, sunday church, etc.). That said, the children are not ignorant to my views and over the years they have incrementally appreciated and understood what atheism is. Far more of a problem for us than religion, is the subject of money.
I would like to add that I think this is a great thread and reflects one of the more under-developed concepts/principles in mustachianism, the concept of investing in marriage. Not only to derive happiness, but even from a cold calculating fiscal perspective. MMM got the "invest in your health and it will pay off in spades" concept down, but to the best of my knowledge, he never really addressed the invest in your marriage concept on the blog. There is a wealth of information and advice and utility that can be drawn from such exploration.
An additional point is that unlike most atheists I know who regularly denigrate and belittle religion and religious people, I do not engage in such behavior/attacks. While I do believe that the concept of believing in a "sky daddy" is silly, under no circumstance would I communicate that out of respect to someone who believes it. There is also some unknown probability (though admittedly small) that they may be right and I may be wrong. No room for hubris in a marriage.
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@Laserjet3051 What are your thoughts on money as an issue in marriage? In our case, early on we set up a system where we each have "operating accounts" (both are held jointly fwiw) and we each are accountable for a pro rata share of the total expenses. Then the money left over is our own to dispose of as we each see fit. More recently, we have migrated to a weekly cash "allowance" for discretionary spending.
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@Laserjet3051 What are your thoughts on money as an issue in marriage? In our case, early on we set up a system where we each have "operating accounts" (both are held jointly fwiw) and we each are accountable for a pro rata share of the total expenses. Then the money left over is our own to dispose of as we each see fit. More recently, we have migrated to a weekly cash "allowance" for discretionary spending.
Money in a marriage is a very complex issue that is often specific to the context at hand. However, I do have some core principles on the matter such as: 1) money problems are more likely to arise and be a sticking point when two partners make a hugely disparate amount of money (or one is a non-income generating partner), 2) partners should have both joint accounts (control) of funds as well as their own independent accounts, 3) big purchases should be discussed/agreed on before hand, small to medium expenses require no "pre-approval," 4) all significant matters of a fiscal nature should be disclosed prior to entering the marriage (or equivalent) as well as those that emerge during the relationship, 4) monetary habits and goals should be compatible between partners.
And the most important: regular (& honest) discussion of monetary matters to ensure things are on track and if not, the opportunity to nudge them back in the right direction. But $ is the stickiest issue in my marriage, so I can only speak from having made mammoth mistakes on this front.
Good luck.
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@Laserjet3051 What are your thoughts on money as an issue in marriage? In our case, early on we set up a system where we each have "operating accounts" (both are held jointly fwiw) and we each are accountable for a pro rata share of the total expenses. Then the money left over is our own to dispose of as we each see fit. More recently, we have migrated to a weekly cash "allowance" for discretionary spending.
Money in a marriage is a very complex issue that is often specific to the context at hand. However, I do have some core principles on the matter such as: 1) money problems are more likely to arise and be a sticking point when two partners make a hugely disparate amount of money (or one is a non-income generating partner), 2) partners should have both joint accounts (control) of funds as well as their own independent accounts, 3) big purchases should be discussed/agreed on before hand, small to medium expenses require no "pre-approval," 4) all significant matters of a fiscal nature should be disclosed prior to entering the marriage (or equivalent) as well as those that emerge during the relationship, 4) monetary habits and goals should be compatible between partners.
And the most important: regular (& honest) discussion of monetary matters to ensure things are on track and if not, the opportunity to nudge them back in the right direction. But $ is the stickiest issue in my marriage, so I can only speak from having made mammoth mistakes on this front.
Good luck.
I agree completely with 1, 3, and 4.
I don't entirely understand why keeping separate accounts is important though. There are many scenarios where having accounts that are secret from your partner is more likely to cause hardship and distress than not.
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When I'm really upset, I'll often write a note/journal entry then read it to Greyman later. I don't talk well when I'm upset, but when I'm upset is when I have all my reasons for being upset in mind. It works better for me to write something out when I'm feeling the feelings, then readdress it when I'm calmer, figure out what the actual problems are that need solving and bring them up at a time when I normally wouldn't bring them up, because then I'm not presently upset!
This is great. Thanks! I've found myself iterating towards something like this using email, but I prefer your approach of reading it to your SO later. I don't talk well when I'm upset either, and I already write in a journal to help myself sort things out.
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Nagging is poison.
When I was married it was my job to take care of the financial details. Including filing the taxes. Every year, around the end of January he'd start reminding me. Maybe once a week. Finally, in March, I'd get started working on them. We had really complicated stuff that took me 2 weeks of a few hours a day.
Eventually I told him how annoying all the nagging was and I found out he thought it was his nagging that finally made me work on them. If he hadn't nagged it wouldn't ever get done. I explained in no uncertain terms that I did the taxes on the schedule I had originally planned and his nagging didn't help. I guess he believed me because he stopped doing it.
That's not why I left, but it was one more straw on the camel's back.
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In addition to really appreciating the work of Gottman and the 5 Love Languages, my fiance recently tore this article out of the paper and we are working through it together: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/23/fashion/weddings/marriage-questions.html.
Having been together for almost 6 years now, it's not just for the newbie relationships. We have often had wide-ranging talks on our philosophies of relationships and this article still got us to talk more in-depth than we have before. We spent hours talking through just the first 4 on a recent backpacking trip and decided we'd do the next set on our next camping trip - winter camping is great for this because you have such long cold, dark hours where it's hard to do much else than talk while huddled in your sleeping bag(s). We're also adding another question about how we'd handle the other one becoming paralyzed, after listening to a recent Death, Sex & Money podcast episode where that happened to some newlyweds.
I think there are two points to this article - each topic is important in itself, but the act of discussing them engenders stronger communication and self-disclosure (i.e. more closeness) which is critical to a strong relationship.
Also, +1000 to love being a verb not a noun, from upthread.
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In addition to really appreciating the work of Gottman and the 5 Love Languages, my fiance recently tore this article out of the paper and we are working through it together: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/23/fashion/weddings/marriage-questions.html.
Having been together for almost 6 years now, it's not just for the newbie relationships. We have often had wide-ranging talks on our philosophies of relationships and this article still got us to talk more in-depth than we have before. We spent hours talking through just the first 4 on a recent backpacking trip and decided we'd do the next set on our next camping trip - winter camping is great for this because you have such long cold, dark hours where it's hard to do much else than talk while huddled in your sleeping bag(s). We're also adding another question about how we'd handle the other one becoming paralyzed, after listening to a recent Death, Sex & Money podcast episode where that happened to some newlyweds.
I think there are two points to this article - each topic is important in itself, but the act of discussing them engenders stronger communication and self-disclosure (i.e. more closeness) which is critical to a strong relationship.
Also, +1000 to love being a verb not a noun, from upthread.
Those are actually really good questions - so many of those lists are just ridiculous stuff that normal people would have covered within the first few dates, unless they were actively avoiding getting to know each other. This one is actually extremely practical and deep.
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I read this today and found it very apropos; interview with a divorce lawyer who wrote a book on why divorces happen.
https://www.vox.com/2018/12/3/18075794/marriage-divorce-happiness-relationships-james-sexton
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". . . . So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
Totally agree with this one. One of the things I had to learn was to tell my husband when things bothered me.
I used to try too hard to "not sweat the small stuff" and "accept" and "let things go"--and for some things that worked, but for some, it just built up into resentment, with which I would later explode. Not good. Now I make more of an effort to say when something bothers me in real time--the same day, preferably the same hour. And more of an effort to say what I want and to do what I want.
He had his own things to work on, but these were mine.
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For those of us who are currently married Mustachians, what steps do you take to invest in your marriage? What do you do that is positive and proactive to increase marital satisfaction and happiness and/or to alleviate or mitigate discord?
We sat down a few years back and made a mission statement on paper, but I sure as heck can't find it. A few lines I remember (29 year old DINKs, together 12 years, married 4):
- Bang weekly
- Don't go to bed angry
- Greet each other and say farewell each time we meet / part or wake up / go to sleep
- Discuss all life-altering decisions first
- Warn the other of incoming large purchases (anything over $100 or so)
- Always be honest
Other than that, we eat dinner together every day. We both do our best to keep in shape physically and mentally. We generally spend the weekends together: Saturday meal prep, Sunday laundry at the least. Take yearly trips away from family. Regularly discuss our work and life goals.
Generally speaking, we're both pretty practical people. We understand that statistics and evidence are better in decision-making than feelings. Given that, we're always willing to listen to what the other person has to say and evaluate with an open mind.
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#3 Don't go to bed angry with each. Following rule #1
You need to know your audience. That rule can backfire. And I mean MASSIVELY. I can, and do, get to a point where I have to disengage. I have to go to bed and sleep. I get irrational, I get overwhelmed, and I am completely incapable of discussing anything logically. If you, my partner, recognize and respect that and let me just go to sleep, 90% of the time the issue is simply gone the next day, and the rest of the time it is really not a big deal and is easily dealt with.
If you, my partner, are trying to follow that rule, then it is going to turn whatever disagreement we were having into a much more serious one: that of disregarding my actual need for sleep and cool off time.
Every relationship where the don't go to bed angry has been around, even with me explicitly telling the idiot not to do that, has ended badly. Because of that damn rule.
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#3 Don't go to bed angry with each. Following rule #1
You need to know your audience. That rule can backfire. And I mean MASSIVELY. I can, and do, get to a point where I have to disengage. I have to go to bed and sleep. I get irrational, I get overwhelmed, and I am completely incapable of discussing anything logically. If you, my partner, recognize and respect that and let me just go to sleep, 90% of the time the issue is simply gone the next day, and the rest of the time it is really not a big deal and is easily dealt with.
If you, my partner, are trying to follow that rule, then it is going to turn whatever disagreement we were having into a much more serious one: that of disregarding my actual need for sleep and cool off time.
Every relationship where the don't go to bed angry has been around, even with me explicitly telling the idiot not to do that, has ended badly. Because of that damn rule.
Can confirm this is how some people need to process. Have driven someone away by trying to solve everything so immediately. Thought I was being attentive but should have really just let them go to sleep some nights.
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@Philociraptor I laughed at "bang weekly" but it's so true. I wasn't ballsy (pun intended) enough to include anything about sex in my list, but yeah, a super fun active sex life is pretty key.
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@Philociraptor I laughed at "bang weekly" but it's so true. I wasn't ballsy (pun intended) enough to include anything about sex in my list, but yeah, a super fun active sex life is pretty key.
Only weekly?
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@Philociraptor I laughed at "bang weekly" but it's so true. I wasn't ballsy (pun intended) enough to include anything about sex in my list, but yeah, a super fun active sex life is pretty key.
Only weekly?
Implied minimum ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". . . . So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
Totally agree with this one. One of the things I had to learn was to tell my husband when things bothered me.
I used to try too hard to "not sweat the small stuff" and "accept" and "let things go"--and for some things that worked, but for some, it just built up into resentment, with which I would later explode. Not good. Now I make more of an effort to say when something bothers me in real time--the same day, preferably the same hour. And more of an effort to say what I want and to do what I want.
He had his own things to work on, but these were mine.
That's been a big lesson for me to learn this year. Like you, I often let things go and genuinely thought many things sincerely didn't bother me. Well, turns out - they did. So now I am learning to quietly tell DH, "I don't like it when you do such and such". I generally stay very calm and loving when I do this and don't do it in anger, which I know he appreciates. I keep it as a matter of fact comment (not accusatory) and this defuses the possibility of it turning into an argument.
The other thing we are working on is to say positive affirming things about each other. We had both gotten into the habit of pointing out each other's faults. Lately, I started teasing DH about the stuff he does that bothers me. I started it as a way to cope, but have realized that it isn't healthy.
Every marriage breakdown I have had a close up view of has involved one person losing respect for the other. It's insidious and can start off so innocently.
Oh and for us, the power of touch and simply being kind to each other makes all the difference in the world.
Sent from my LG-K373 using Tapatalk
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@Philociraptor I laughed at "bang weekly" but it's so true. I wasn't ballsy (pun intended) enough to include anything about sex in my list, but yeah, a super fun active sex life is pretty key.
yes, but it's not enough, especially if you are not doing those other things (see date your wife).
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Frequent and savage fart battles.
haha I like the fart wars idea.
Related (accidentally), we try to do dance-of-the-day. Everyday :)
We can't dance, we just try to out-silly each other's moves. Funtimes.
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Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry". . . . So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".
Totally agree with this one. One of the things I had to learn was to tell my husband when things bothered me.
I used to try too hard to "not sweat the small stuff" and "accept" and "let things go"--and for some things that worked, but for some, it just built up into resentment, with which I would later explode. Not good. Now I make more of an effort to say when something bothers me in real time--the same day, preferably the same hour. And more of an effort to say what I want and to do what I want.
He had his own things to work on, but these were mine.
That's been a big lesson for me to learn this year. Like you, I often let things go and genuinely thought many things sincerely didn't bother me. Well, turns out - they did. So now I am learning to quietly tell DH, "I don't like it when you do such and such". I generally stay very calm and loving when I do this and don't do it in anger, which I know he appreciates. I keep it as a matter of fact comment (not accusatory) and this defuses the possibility of it turning into an argument.
The other thing we are working on is to say positive affirming things about each other. We had both gotten into the habit of pointing out each other's faults. Lately, I started teasing DH about the stuff he does that bothers me. I started it as a way to cope, but have realized that it isn't healthy.
Every marriage breakdown I have had a close up view of has involved one person losing respect for the other. It's insidious and can start off so innocently.
Oh and for us, the power of touch and simply being kind to each other makes all the difference in the world.
Sent from my LG-K373 using Tapatalk
Yup, you and I are on the same wavelength here!
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@Philociraptor I laughed at "bang weekly" but it's so true. I wasn't ballsy (pun intended) enough to include anything about sex in my list, but yeah, a super fun active sex life is pretty key.
yes, but it's not enough, especially if you are not doing those other things (see date your wife).
Oh yeah, I didn't get the sense that anyone was saying that a sex life alone is enough to sustain a marriage.
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Been married a mere 3 years, so posting to follow folks much more wise than me - thank you all!
Keeping it going for the long haul is a commitment - lots of admiration from me.
Despite being new to the marriage game, one useful thing we do find ourselves saying is "be generous with our assumptions" about each other... (basically: a fancy way to say "don't immediately assume the worst").
It's a tiny thing, but helps re-frame in over-reactive little moments: much better to think "you didn't do the dishes because you're especially tired from conducting three interviews at work" than "you didn't do the dishes because you're: purposely spiting me / an actual monster / etc... " :)
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posting to follow
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As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?
Social media has been an affliction to our society. Particularly things like instagram, Facebook, and twitter. People only sharing the best of their lives and hiding the worst. From the outside it appears that everyones visible life is just so much better than your own real life. Its is so sad.
I agree that, for the most part, a lot of people share only "happy" things, but I've tried to be honest with my posts--I share the frustrations and sadnesses of life in addition to the fun stuff. I share the crappy and the good. I've also noticed my friends also share the hard things, too. Maybe it's just my circle of friends, but between deaths, car accidents, job loss, surgery, financial struggles, emergency hospitalizations, sobriety, struggles with depression/anxiety, etc. I feel like I see a lot of honesty on Facebook and Instagram stories, especially.
As for marriage stuff, I dunno. After 10 years, we still just like being together more than with other people. Maybe that's lame, but it's true. I like him more than anyone else, and if I had a day off, he'd be my number one choice of person to spend it with--whether that's running boring errands or going on an amazing trip.
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In addition to really appreciating the work of Gottman and the 5 Love Languages, my fiance recently tore this article out of the paper and we are working through it together: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/23/fashion/weddings/marriage-questions.html.
Having been together for almost 6 years now, it's not just for the newbie relationships. We have often had wide-ranging talks on our philosophies of relationships and this article still got us to talk more in-depth than we have before. We spent hours talking through just the first 4 on a recent backpacking trip and decided we'd do the next set on our next camping trip - winter camping is great for this because you have such long cold, dark hours where it's hard to do much else than talk while huddled in your sleeping bag(s). We're also adding another question about how we'd handle the other one becoming paralyzed, after listening to a recent Death, Sex & Money podcast episode where that happened to some newlyweds.
I think there are two points to this article - each topic is important in itself, but the act of discussing them engenders stronger communication and self-disclosure (i.e. more closeness) which is critical to a strong relationship.
Also, +1000 to love being a verb not a noun, from upthread.
Those are actually really good questions - so many of those lists are just ridiculous stuff that normal people would have covered within the first few dates, unless they were actively avoiding getting to know each other. This one is actually extremely practical and deep.
Agreed! One question that I think is so important and never seems to make these lists is: "What do you want from me when you are sad/angry/frustrated/not feeling well." People handle negative emotions so differently, some want to be left alone, others want to be physically reassured, and some want to vent about it but just be listened to, some want to brainstorm solutions, etc. So many hurt feelings result from miscommunication about wants.
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Didn’t read every post- but kids will put a hurtin on a marriage faster than anything else in my observations. My advice is don’t have em 😁
If you already do, I got nothing
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Didn’t read every post- but kids will put a hurtin on a marriage faster than anything else in my observations. My advice is don’t have em 😁
If you already do, I got nothing
Kids of all things? In my case kids were the only thing that kept me in the marriage for 7 years. Eventually, I have realized that the relationship was toxic for them and I.
Plus, my current bf had moved himself from just "a guy" to "official mom's bf" by showing up immediately after a snow storm to "help clean my driveway" (even though I didn't want him to) while my kids were home and obviously he had to be introduced and promoted to "mom's bf."
Otherwise, good advices. I think mutual respect is a key for a long lasting relationship.
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Didn’t read every post- but kids will put a hurtin on a marriage faster than anything else in my observations. My advice is don’t have em 😁
If you already do, I got nothing
Great advice :)
@ilsy, that's a terrible example if you're trying to discredit the quoted post lol.
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To my younger self: The best investment for marriage happens before you get married. Know thyself, and know what you want in a partner. For me, this took a long time to figure out. I'm slow. Very fortunate to have finally figured this out.
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I think it depends on the people whether kids draw the couple together or drive them apart. Whether each individual has a team perspective (we are a family, a team, we are all in this together, and one of our primary missions is raising great kids), it can strengthen a marriage. However if you are individual-oriented kids take a sh+t ton of time, work, energy, money. If you have the view the kids are a burden or taking away from things you would rather do that person can become resentful or withdraw from the relationship. Double if one of the kids has special needs. In retrospect I think this was the precipitating cause of my marriage break up (than the later infidelity) because after we had our 2nd child, who is a handful, that's when he started drinking more, taking off, leaving me alone with the kids, etc.
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"Bang weekly." Good idea, or daily if you prefer. Hell, if you are in your 20s, go for multiples per day.
Seriously, don't be afraid to tell your spouse what you like, and don't be afraid to give your spouse what he/she likes.
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Initial marital issues were because I was focusing on the minimal things that were missing from my "ideal" marriage. Once I realized how wonderful all the other aspects were, it's all good
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Our 28th anniversary is coming up, and all I think I've learned is that I have no advice for anyone else's relationship.
I met my wife and got her pregnant when she was 18; I was a broke college student. We lived in a trailer and I made a water bed for us to sleep on because we had no furniture. Kitchen utensils from Goodwill, broken cars all around.. I'm not sure what the odds for success are in general for such marriages but they ain't good! Still, somehow, stumbling through good and bad and fighting and screwing up and loving each other has worked so far.
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Our 28th anniversary is coming up, and all I think I've learned is that I have no advice for anyone else's relationship.
I met my wife and got her pregnant when she was 18; I was a broke college student. We lived in a trailer and I made a water bed for us to sleep on because we had no furniture. Kitchen utensils from Goodwill, broken cars all around.. I'm not sure what the odds for success are in general for such marriages but they ain't good! Still, somehow, stumbling through good and bad and fighting and screwing up and loving each other has worked so far.
Aww, that's lovely.
Also, how do you make a water bed?
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Aww, that's lovely.
Also, how do you make a water bed?
:-)
The frame, actually.. I should've specified. Back in the day you could buy a water bed mattress for something like $20; I put together some plywood and 2x10s for a frame and voila! You could also buy a cheap electric heater for it which was a plus in our crappily insulated trailer when it was in the 20s outside. We actually had a series of these for probably 10 years, until we finally wearied of trying to get out of the damn things and bought our first real mattress.
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Aww, that's lovely.
Also, how do you make a water bed?
:-)
The frame, actually.. I should've specified. Back in the day you could buy a water bed mattress for something like $20; I put together some plywood and 2x10s for a frame and voila! You could also buy a cheap electric heater for it which was a plus in our crappily insulated trailer when it was in the 20s outside. We actually had a series of these for probably 10 years, until we finally wearied of trying to get out of the damn things and bought our first real mattress.
I had no idea. I have only slept on a waterbed a couple of times. Hated it, so did not pursue buying one. They were just one of those phenomena that seemed like so much effort -- and so much potential danger of puncture! :D
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Didn’t read every post- but kids will put a hurtin on a marriage faster than anything else in my observations. My advice is don’t have em 😁
If you already do, I got nothing
Great advice :)
@ilsy, that's a terrible example if you're trying to discredit the quoted post lol.
If I didn't have the kids, my marriage wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Can't figure out what's terrible about it.
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Didn’t read every post- but kids will put a hurtin on a marriage faster than anything else in my observations. My advice is don’t have em 😁
If you already do, I got nothing
Great advice :)
@ilsy, that's a terrible example if you're trying to discredit the quoted post lol.
If I didn't have the kids, my marriage wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Can't figure out what's terrible about it.
Can you explain? This has me very curious. I find that sort of mystifying, unless you mean that a marriage that otherwise should have (and maybe did) end, lasted longer because you held out for the kids.
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Didn’t read every post- but kids will put a hurtin on a marriage faster than anything else in my observations. My advice is don’t have em 😁
If you already do, I got nothing
Great advice :)
@ilsy, that's a terrible example if you're trying to discredit the quoted post lol.
If I didn't have the kids, my marriage wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Can't figure out what's terrible about it.
Can you explain? This has me very curious. I find that sort of mystifying, unless you mean that a marriage that otherwise should have (and maybe did) end, lasted longer because you held out for the kids.
Yep, exactly that. My marriage lasted longer because we had kids together.
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Didn’t read every post- but kids will put a hurtin on a marriage faster than anything else in my observations. My advice is don’t have em 😁
If you already do, I got nothing
Great advice :)
@ilsy, that's a terrible example if you're trying to discredit the quoted post lol.
If I didn't have the kids, my marriage wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Can't figure out what's terrible about it.
Can you explain? This has me very curious. I find that sort of mystifying, unless you mean that a marriage that otherwise should have (and maybe did) end, lasted longer because you held out for the kids.
Yep, exactly that. My marriage lasted longer because we had kids together.
The reason people are saying that having kids to save a marriage is bad advice is that "staying together for the kids" is a common reason to extend marriages that would otherwise be "over" in normal circumstances. Length of marriage isn't the goal--a HAPPY (or at least non-stressful), long marriage is the goal.
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YMMV on that. The 11 years that my wife and I were first together were significantly easier for the relationship and much less stressful than the five after we had my son. I'd say that having a kid has been the single worst decision we've ever made for our relationship.
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YMMV on that. The 11 years that my wife and I were first together were significantly easier for the relationship and much less stressful than the five after we had my son. I'd say that having a kid has been the single worst decision we've ever made for our relationship.
Apologies if I'm assuming too much, but I really feel for people who pull the "difficult child" straw on their first kid. I can only imagine if my youngest was instead my oldest, she probably would have been both. I love her to death, but she has made life a difficult road compared to the other kids.
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Challenging kids are just hard and can be such a drain on your energy. My first has been generally easy while my second has always needed more effort and energy. And yes, DH and I sure fight more over him as we struggle to figure out the best ways to help our boy. Oh well, pushes us to improve our marital communication skills ;)
Sent from my LG-K373 using Tapatalk
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Some stuff that has worked for us (married 5 years):
1. Strong community surrounding us that provides a lot of emotional and logistical support. We live far from family (this is actually generally a good thing) but we have a lot of very close friendships with people in many different stages of life. We invest in these relationships as much as possible.
2. Shared religious faith and sense of purpose--this helps in many ways, including the biggies, like what to do with our money and time. It also unites us and makes us feel like our marriage is about more than just us.
3. Commitment to putting our marriage above our kids (we have a four year old and a two year old); we try to make sure we spend the night away from them in a hotel at least once a year. We do a lot of babysitting swaps with our community and all the families with kids are committed to helping each other out in this way. Marriage over children is a shared philosophy for all of us. If any couple is getting to that red line of starting to hate each other because of the lack of work/life balance getting too horrible, another couple will jump in and give the stressed couple a break. Again--community is very important to us.
4. I picked a good guy. I had to wait a long time for him, but he was worth it. We fight sometimes but I've come to appreciate the fighting because it means things are going to get real, which is extremely important. Simmering resentment is bad. More and more I just want to come out with what's bugging me and I want to hear the bad news about what's bugging him. Fight, get mad, flare up (no hitting below the belt), slam the door, and then kiss and make up (maybe the next day; "don't go to bed angry" doesn't work for me because going to bed is usually a huge help. For me it's more like..."don't go to bed with simmering resentment that you're being passive-aggressive about"). Thankfully my guy fights well. I trust him to listen even if he disagrees. Same with me. We've learned that both of us kind of suck sometimes but we both want the best for each other ultimately.
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My wife and I got together when I was 17 and she was 20; we got married six years later, in 1981, and we're still married. So that makes... what? 37 years, or 43, depending on how you count.
It's hard to say anything categorical about how to invest in your marriage. It depends on who you both are and what you both need. For us the critical investment was designated time together -- a day of the week that's dedicated to hanging out together, and usually to getting outdoors together. "Going out and looking at a tree" is what we call it. Of course sometimes it ends up being something really exciting like going out and getting our flu shots together. Life impinges. But we usually get out to look at our tree. Usually we make love, or at least read aloud and cuddle, on that day.
But as I say, that's us and what we need. At critical junctures marriage counseling has been a godsend.
The main piece of advice I've got is: ask, and ask again. Ask what's going on with your partner. Ask what they want that they're not getting. Ask what they like in bed (it's scarcely credible to me, but I have it on good authority that many people actually don't know what their partners like. It's your job to know this. It's not necessarily your job to deliver it, but you really need to know it.) Keep asking and listening. It's easy to think you know what's going on, but you always know less than you think you do. Always. And the only way to find out is to ask and to listen. Practice follow-up questions like "tell me more about that?" And "what's that like?" Because generally the first time you ask, people just say what they think you want to hear, or what you should hear. It's the second or third ask that actually starts to unearth information :-)
Try to keep the asking and finding out separate from negotiating solutions. Solutions will emerge if you know what the problems actually are. But conduct your fact-finding missions first, before you try to fix anything.
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Commitment to putting our marriage above our kids.
I'm curious about this one. I've sort of grown up with the cultural idea that I shouldn't have kids unless/until I'm ready to put them before everything else in my life. But I've heard the above statement from more than one reliable source - and I have neither kids nor a marriage, so I probably should be listening! Can you elaborate?
@koshtra's advice sounds fantastic.
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Commitment to putting our marriage above our kids.
I'm curious about this one. I've sort of grown up with the cultural idea that I shouldn't have kids unless/until I'm ready to put them before everything else in my life. But I've heard the above statement from more than one reliable source - and I have neither kids nor a marriage, so I probably should be listening! Can you elaborate?
@koshtra's advice sounds fantastic.
Basically, once you have a child, you tend to put their happiness/wellbeing first, above even your own. But if your marriage suffers because of not prioritizing it or putting enough time into that relationship, then your kid suffers because of unhappily married parents. So if you prioritize your spouse, and your kid sees that love/respect/friendship in the marriage, it's better for the kid, and it's better for your relationship. Basically, the thing about continuing to "date" and "woo" your partner is good for kids, too. And if you have a healthy marriage, your kid will likely end up with healthy attachment. Reduce adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) by having a healthy marriage!
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Commitment to putting our marriage above our kids.
I'm curious about this one. I've sort of grown up with the cultural idea that I shouldn't have kids unless/until I'm ready to put them before everything else in my life. But I've heard the above statement from more than one reliable source - and I have neither kids nor a marriage, so I probably should be listening! Can you elaborate?
@koshtra's advice sounds fantastic.
I think there's a better way to put it than "putting the marriage before the kids". I think it is kind of offensive to the children and misrepresents the differences between the relationship with your spouse versus the relationship with your kids. Ultimately, spouse and kids are equally important and both need attention in their own ways in order to keep healthy relationships.
On the other hand, I think an important piece of advice might be "put the marriage and the kids before the money".
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Ok, maybe reframe "marriage above kids" as a more practical set of examples.
1. Kids' discretionary activities do not overwhelm the calendar to the point where spouses don't have much time together.
2. Kids are trained not to interrupt spousal conversations.
3. Any spousal disagreements re: the kids are voiced away from the kids' hearing; in view of the kids spouses are a 100% united team/monolith.
4. Kids go to bed at 7 pm because we like having a couple of hours at night to hang out without them. Also, kids take a two hour nap every afternoon so that we have time to ourselves. If the kids don't want to nap, that's fine, but they have to stay in their rooms and amuse themselves quietly. We trained them to do this.
5. More theoretical explanation: I see my kids as ships passing in the night. I love them and I'm glad they're here, but they are not the permanent relationship--the relationship with my husband is permanent. Not that I don't hope to have a relationship with my kids for my whole life; more that I know that that relationship will grow and shift and change over time. To clarify...I delight in my children but not to the point where I prefer them to my spouse. I love them but they aren't a source of comfort and support the way that he is. If we're on a date, we intentionally talk about each others' lives/hopes/dreams/fears, not so much stuff to do with our kids.
Kids are inherently massive vortexes of time, attention, energy, and money. So it's important to have intentional boundaries with them or they will suck you dry. It's not their fault--that's how they are wired. They NEED limits. They need to know that they are not at the center of the household. And I need an adult to be my main relationship in life.
I got all this through a lot of reading and conversations with older married couples. Also, I'm a teacher, so having good boundaries with kids has been my life for the past 16 years.
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That's a pretty legit set of rules. And I'm jealous you have kids who go to bed by 7. (All of our kids are good going to bed by about 8:30, except for the "problem child" who will not go to bed until we do, will not sleep anywhere but our room, and wakes up constantly throughout the night. It has been an exceptionally rough past three years.)
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We are extremely lucky, or at least we have been so far. Our kids are pretty typical. Can be fairly rascal-ly and definitely have their share of night wake-ups, but they've always responded well to all the stuff I've learned about boundaries with kids, and I also have had enough experience with kids to know not to take that for granted or consider it as evidence of our amazing and superior parenting.
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We are extremely lucky, or at least we have been so far. Our kids are pretty typical. Can be fairly rascal-ly and definitely have their share of night wake-ups, but they've always responded well to all the stuff I've learned about boundaries with kids, and I also have had enough experience with kids to know not to take that for granted or consider it as evidence of our amazing and superior parenting.
I was such a superior parent with my first :) Boy did the tables turn on me with #2 who did not sleep through the night until ~8 YEARS and was definitely not a sit-quietly-during-circle-time kid!
I agree that kids will suck every ounce of energy out if u let them. Not good in the long run.
So yes, kids are very very important and if u do decide to have kids, u need to commit yourself to raising them. Their basic needs will take priority over your wants. But their wants do not and should not.
If u are a loving parent, it is easy to get consumed by their needs and wants and just see yourself and your spouse as parents. But we are people too and have needs and wants of our own too.
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I am going to guess that couples trying to "put marriage above kids" have small kids who do require some time because they are not independent enough to take care of themselves. Which is understandable at this point of your life. My kids are 11 and 10, they are pretty independent, they can make food for themselves, they help showeling and mowing, dishes, laundry. I feel that I finally can get back that time that I have invested into them when they were little.
I love spending time with my kids, they are not a burden, it's very exciting to see what kind of person they shape up into. They provide not less support than my SO. When I get home after a very long day at work they make me a cup of coffee and a sandwich the way I like it (to be honest, I don't even know how to make drinks they like, it's been a while). I have great conversations, especially with the older one about books she reads, I actually recommend her books to read and she recommends some to me.
My kids are not on the way of my relationship with my bf, they respect him and they like that he makes me laugh, they actually compete with him to make me laugh more, they do win sometimes because they know me better.
I think that when kids are older there is no need to choose who should get a priority because there is enough time for everyone.
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That's a pretty legit set of rules. And I'm jealous you have kids who go to bed by 7. (All of our kids are good going to bed by about 8:30, except for the "problem child" who will not go to bed until we do, will not sleep anywhere but our room, and wakes up constantly throughout the night. It has been an exceptionally rough past three years.)
I had a ‘problem child’ who now sleeps in his bed and is a big boy. I’d give anything for one more night of snuggling in my bed with him. Enjoy it while you can!!
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SO and I have been together for 42 years. Or less if you take away the three years he was seconded to another country and I couldn’t go, or the nine years he worked in another state, and drove seven and a half hours each way every second weekend to be with me.
But we’ve been together all this time, have been retired together for many years, and we can’t envisage being apart.
My rules.
You must be nice to one another.
You must trust one another.
You must laugh regularly with one another.
Everything else follows.
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Ok, maybe reframe "marriage above kids" as a more practical set of examples.
1. Kids' discretionary activities do not overwhelm the calendar to the point where spouses don't have much time together.
2. Kids are trained not to interrupt spousal conversations.
3. Any spousal disagreements re: the kids are voiced away from the kids' hearing; in view of the kids spouses are a 100% united team/monolith.
4. Kids go to bed at 7 pm because we like having a couple of hours at night to hang out without them. Also, kids take a two hour nap every afternoon so that we have time to ourselves. If the kids don't want to nap, that's fine, but they have to stay in their rooms and amuse themselves quietly. We trained them to do this.
5. More theoretical explanation: I see my kids as ships passing in the night. I love them and I'm glad they're here, but they are not the permanent relationship--the relationship with my husband is permanent. Not that I don't hope to have a relationship with my kids for my whole life; more that I know that that relationship will grow and shift and change over time. To clarify...I delight in my children but not to the point where I prefer them to my spouse. I love them but they aren't a source of comfort and support the way that he is. If we're on a date, we intentionally talk about each others' lives/hopes/dreams/fears, not so much stuff to do with our kids.
Kids are inherently massive vortexes of time, attention, energy, and money. So it's important to have intentional boundaries with them or they will suck you dry. It's not their fault--that's how they are wired. They NEED limits. They need to know that they are not at the center of the household. And I need an adult to be my main relationship in life.
I got all this through a lot of reading and conversations with older married couples. Also, I'm a teacher, so having good boundaries with kids has been my life for the past 16 years.
I really like this. It is easy to forget when you are in the eye of the storm of childrearing years. It is easy to make the kids take precedence.