invest in your marriage

[OurTown]

I am just brokenhearted reading the stories on the MMM divorce thread.  Obviously, divorce is devastating emotionally and financially.  I have considerable personal experience in this area myself, and there was plenty of blame to go around.

For those of us who are currently married Mustachians, what steps do you take to invest in your marriage?  What do you do that is positive and proactive to increase marital satisfaction and happiness and/or to alleviate or mitigate discord?

[2Birds1Stone]

Date yo' wife!

[Crease]

Date yo' wife!

This is a large part of it. I actively avoid becoming complacent and taking DW's love for granted, by striving to impress her as eagerly as I tried to when we first started dating. I also view love as a verb not a noun.

[OurTown]

There is a concept in Stoicism that you should learn to desire what you already have.  It was explained pretty well in William Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life.

[EnjoyIt]

Date yo' wife!

#1 Always and I mean always discuss issues openly and honestly trying to understand your spouses view in that conversation.

#2 Don't do anything out of spite or being passive aggressive.  Instead follow rule #1

#3 Don't go to bed angry with each. Following rule #1

#4 Schedule date nights.  Real dates when you and your spouse are away from family and kids.  Sure you may need to pay for a babysitter, but a babysitter is much less expensive than a divorce.  Parents need their alone time.

#5 Make sure to address your partners sexual needs.  This may require rule number #1

#6 Do your best to stay healthy and in shape.  No one is expecting Duane "The Rock" Johnson or a Victoria Secret model.  Just do your best to not let yourself go.  Its good for your health, your sex life, and your marriage.

#7 Never forget about rule #1

So far this has worked for us although we have only been together for 10 years

[bwall]

Tolstoy said it best in the opening lines of "Anna Karenina": All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

I think that there are two fundamental parts of all happy marriages that are intertwined;
1) Compatibility
2) Communication

So, if you can find a person who is compatible with you (and you with them!) and can then communicate well with this person, then you've gone a long way to being/staying happily married.

[OurTown]

@EnjoyIt  on your Rule #6, I've noticed that I get a year older every year and so does she!  That being said, there are certain things I can do to not slide into becoming an unattractive slug, like keeping the excess weight off.  There is also personal care (grooming) and halfway decent clothing.  That last one may be a little counter to being a Mustachian.  I wear a suit to work every day, but my at home clothes were old and ratty.  She noticed.  When I lost the weight I did drop a few bucks at for new casual clothes for at home wear.  I didn't go all crazy spendy-pants, but I think it is worth it to be a little mindful of appearance & attractiveness with the better half.   

[EnjoyIt]

@EnjoyIt  on your Rule #6, I've noticed that I get a year older every year and so does she!  That being said, there are certain things I can do to not slide into becoming an unattractive slug, like keeping the excess weight off.  There is also personal care (grooming) and halfway decent clothing.  That last one may be a little counter to being a Mustachian.  I wear a suit to work every day, but my at home clothes were old and ratty.  She noticed.  When I lost the weight I did drop a few bucks at for new casual clothes for at home wear.  I didn't go all crazy spendy-pants, but I think it is worth it to be a little mindful of appearance & attractiveness with the better half.   

Honestly, I agree with you.  It is worth spending a little extra money on your appearance.  Sure we all get older and we expect our skin to sag and wrinkles to develop.  But to frankly give up and let ourselves go is a very undesirable trait. I would rather spend an extra couple of hundred a year on being healthier and looking better than a few thousand on lawyers or tens of thousands on doctor bills and medication.  We are playing the odds by spending money now to prevent more expensive future outlays.

[sisto]

I like what @EnjoyIt said. I'd definitely add that you really need to make sure you're compatible though. Having similar values and morals is extremely important to start off with. Compromise is also another good one. You both need to really figure out the things that really matter to you and if they matter less to the other person then they can compromise. I always say pick your battles. Make sure it's something you really need to win, otherwise find a compromise. There really is very rarely anything that either of us are that passionate about that we can't agree on. If so we find a good compromise.

[MasterStache]

There is a concept in Stoicism that you should learn to desire what you already have.  It was explained pretty well in William Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life.

Ha, I just read that book not long ago and currently my wife and son are reading it.

I'll be perfectly honest and acknowledge it's tough being with the same person for many years. But I think we both contribute to our marriage in ways we each appreciate and that really helps. For instance my wife is fantastic with our kids, particularly our teenager, who at times really struggles due to his severe ADHD. She has a lot more patience than I do and I have acknowledged that many times. I also appreciate that she was willing to make some changes in our lives that put us on a path to FIRE and actually let me retire last year while she keeps working. We aren't perfect people but finding the positive in your spouse and acknowledging it, I think, is a huge positive.

[Bracken_Joy]

-Be college educated and be born to college educated parents. Be born to married parents. Avoid Adverse Childhood Events. Have all these apply to your spouse.
-Be white.
-Be a millenial and not a boomer. 
-Get married between the ages of 22 and 32. If you're religious, do not live together before marriage. If you're not, DO live together before marriage.
-Be the type of people who have a large, cheap wedding.
-Be wealthy.
-Avoid infertility, miscarriage, and the death of children. Pick your children so they don't have developmental disabilities.
-Avoid serious injuries and chronic illnesses.
Congratulations, you now have much better odds of staying married!

Tongue in cheek aside. What can we do that we actually CAN control?
For one, watch for "danger signs": hopefully everyone has read about the "four horsemen" that the Gottman Institute talks about? Criticisim, contempt, stonewalling, and defensiveness. https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/ If any of these are present in your marriage... well, I guess try counseling (either alone or with your partner), but it's technically a predictive factor already.

My husband and I have been dealing with years of infertility now. Along with that comes a lot of stress but also an insane price tag. That could easily be a pretty disastrous recipe. Especially since, with testing, we can say clearly that it is MY fault and not my husband's fault. I can't take ANY credit here, but he doesn't blame me and very much sees it as our problem to get through together. We did agree early on that if we start to feel like we're handling it poorly, we'll go to counseling because it's a known contributor to divorce and unhappy marriages.

One of the things we've been trying very hard to do is not have anything be set in stone. Life is clearly not going as planned (see above). So, when we realized we were both miserable where we were? We just sold out suburban home, moved back to a city where we know far more people, and downsized. We had planned on that being our forever home where we raised our children. But being able to say, "hey, this isn't working anymore" and have it be okay and a team effort to resolve... that's big I think.

I don't have "advice". I can just say what we're doing. Only time will tell if that works, obviously. But a lot of demographic factors are in our favor, and that paired with being very committed to constantly working together to define and achieve our dreams gives me hope we'll stay solid through whatever life throws at us.

[katsiki]

PTF.  Thanks to those who comment!

[Kris]

I think there's a lot of good discussion above.

I like EnjoyIt's list. And I think that yes, appreciating/desiring what you already have is important.

There's a drive in our society to always be questioning whether we have enough of/the best of something. That's part of the reason a lot of us are here on the MMM forum -- to try to resist that way of thinking, and recognize the huge limitations of it.

Some people seem to have been wired (by society, or something else) to be looking for more, and to be dissatisfied. To focus on a partner's shortcomings, or a relationship's shortcomings. Because let's face it, no relationship has everything.

Having the good fortune to have chosen a spouse who isn't propelled by that drive is a key component. Or rather, a couple having the good fortune for neither of them to be propelled for that drive. The hard thing about relationships is, you can only control yourself. You can't make someone else realize how good things are. You can't make someone else want to try. You can't make someone else feel a sense of commitment to you and to the marriage. I've been married to someone who didn't feel those things, and let me tell you, it is awful. You feel so helpless, and so frustrated, and like you're in a car that's driving a direction you don't want it to go but you can't do anything about it. You just have to sit there, watching as you go down that path, and wonder/worry about the impending crash.

I very much feel for people who are in that situation. Thankfully, I came out the other side, and now I'm with someone I feel sure of. It's a great feeling. And I'm all the more grateful for being super-aware of how lucky I am because of the last relationship.

On a more practical level, communication is key, but sometimes even individuals' best attempts to communicate get lost in translation. I'm not much of a self-help person, but the book The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman was truly one of the best books I've read about understanding how people communicate the giving and receiving of love, and how/why sometimes one person's loving act is another person's cop-out or inattentive, superficial gesture. I think it's a great tool to help couples understand how to communicate better.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OICLVBI

And, this book -- Uncoupling, by Diane Vaughan -- taught me an immense amount about turning points in intimate relationships. I read it right as I was separating from my ex-husband. In fact, I want to read it again sometime soon, now that I'm not in that particular head space and can see it from more of an objective distance. I'd recommend it to anyone who'd like to think about their conduct in relationships, and how people's intimacy evolves or devolves, and why.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679730028

[Tass]

-Be a millenial and not a boomer. 

I appreciate the honesty about the statistical risk factors, but I'm curious about this one. Surely boomers are more likely to get divorced because they've simply had more time for their marriages to sour? The oldest millenials are not yet 40. Rising divorce rates among older people may be generation-specific, or it may just be that it's more common to get divorced at 50 than it used to be and millenials aren't there yet.

I am not married, so I'm in this thread out of curiosity rather than experience. I am interested in what factors make long term relationships continue to work even years into them. Seven years into my partnership, I am certain we are outliers among relationships started at age 18.

[Bracken_Joy]

-Be a millenial and not a boomer. 

I appreciate the honesty about the statistical risk factors, but I'm curious about this one. Surely boomers are more likely to get divorced because they've simply had more time for their marriages to sour? The oldest millenials are not yet 40. Rising divorce rates among older people may be generation-specific, or it may just be that it's more common to get divorced at 50 than it used to be and millenials aren't there yet.

I am not married, so I'm in this thread out of curiosity rather than experience. I am interested in what factors make long term relationships continue to work even years into them. Seven years into my partnership, I am certain we are outliers among relationships started at age 18.

It is comparative relative to duration of marriage, I believe. And it's an issue of the other demographic factors. Here's an article that explains it well: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/09/millennials-divorce-baby-boomers/571282/

Basically, among boomers much larger swaths of people actually got married. Among millenials, those at highest risk of divorce classically (low education, low SES, minority status, premarital childbirth, teen parenthood) are just less likely to marry. Marriage is now a privileged thing, generally. So the people getting married among millenials are just the people who are less likely to divorce.

[OurTown]

Obviously the only thing that is in your control is what you do/think/feel/say.  You don't control your spouse and you can't "make" your spouse be happy and content.  You can, I think, have some influence over your spouse's happiness by how you conduct yourself and whether you are making any kind of effort to meet his or her needs.  It's better if you do that in a non-selfish way, as opposed to having a covert contract where you think I'm going to give her "x" and in exchange she must give me "y."   

I'm familiar with the "four horsemen" material as well as the "love languages" material mentioned above, both of those are great resources.

[steveo]

This is a tough one. I've been married 16 years and we have 3 kids. One of which was borne our of wedlock so we've been together about 20 years.

You are going to have some problems and I'm not sure how to avoid that but I think the ideas in Gottman are really good. I also read Schnarch when we had our first (and only) marital crisis. The problem with Schnarch is I don't think he is really protecting against divorce but pushing for either divorce or a functional relationship.

The way I invest in my marriage is by doing things with my wife and typically they are little things. We wake up and have a coffee and a chat together. We typically watch a TV show together each night. We typically do something on the weekend together but it's typically little such as going for a walk or something similar. I think you have to be on the same page in relation to finances as well.

I think though that a successful marriage requires both parties to be willing to compromise and not to go after the next thing that is appealing. I also think people have to accept their lives as it is. So although I do things to try and create a positive relationship I think that a lasting marriage is more about both people just deciding to stick together and work through issues.

[Cassie]

Among my friends that married between 25-30 they are all still married. My friends that married young like me twice are now in their 3rd marriages and have been for the past 20 years. We are boomers at 64.   I think it would be hard to be with the same person for 60-70 years. So much changes.  I have read about some very long term marriages ending upon retiring but don’t know anyone it’s happened too. My DH and I have fun and he makes me laugh every day. We do some things together and some separate.  We have our couple friends and our own friends.

[deek]

As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?

This is my worst nightmare, so I take my sweet time in relationships - some women may not have the patience for me, which also worries me. I want to settle down at some point with an amazing woman, but what if they love me (or think they love me) a lot sooner than I'm able to reciprocate that same feeling?

People my age seem to understand less nowadays that not everything is new and exciting all the time, this life isn't a movie, and problems can be solved with honest communication. I almost feel like I'm in the minority in wanting to handle relationships in a mature, realistic way.

[EnjoyIt]

As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?

Social media has been an affliction to our society. Particularly things like instagram, Facebook, and twitter.  People only sharing the best of their lives and hiding the worst.  From the outside it appears that everyones visible life is just so much better than your own real life.  Its is so sad.

[deek]

As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?

Social media has been an affliction to our society. Particularly things like instagram, Facebook, and twitter.  People only sharing the best of their lives and hiding the worst.  From the outside it appears that everyones visible life is just so much better than your own real life.  Its is so sad.

Yeah, exactly. I won't lie, I have Instagram and Facebook. And although they are both good for certain things, they both annoy the hell out of me. People are abusing the shit out of them and it literally makes people insane. And it ruins relationships.

Kind of along the same line - I've tried dating apps before just to meet some different people - I've met 1 person I was interested in from a dating app. And I've tried them off and on for like 3 years maybe. It's just a game to most people and creates totally unrealistic expectations.

[MasterStache]

As a 27 year old who is not married, I'm not sure if I have a pessimistic view of what causes divorces a lot of the time or not, but I have to believe the visibility of anyone and everyone via social media, and just how accessible everything is, people sometimes talk themselves into thinking they could have something better or more perfect. And that turns into divorce. Am I wrong?

Social media has been an affliction to our society. Particularly things like instagram, Facebook, and twitter.  People only sharing the best of their lives and hiding the worst.  From the outside it appears that everyones visible life is just so much better than your own real life.  Its is so sad.

I think that's a big reason why folks are so surprised Pete is getting divorced. I had a High School friend who finally got married 7-8 years ago. She used to post on Facebook about all their travel adventures, how great their life was etc. Never a single bad thing to say. They didn't have kids and both had great jobs making a lot of money. I actually met her husband  and he was nice as could be. I got rid of Facebook some time ago but heard through some friends they are now divorced.

I think the MMM forums are about as social as it gets for me. 

[elaine amj]

I know one time my aunt commented on my FB about how good a Mom I was being. I told her very truthfully that it was very, very easy to be an awesome Mom on FB. A little harder in real life!

I don't see FB as a place to post any personal woes, particularly marital dirty laundry. For me, FB is just a place to share fun things happening in my life and occasionally ask for help or whatever. I certainly don't think of it as a depiction of my real life.

Sent from my LG-K373 using Tapatalk

[deek]

One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.

[Tass]

One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.

Curious about others' experience with this as well. As mentioned above, I'm not married, but I'm in a 7-year relationship with an atheist as a... wishy-washy Christian. It has not been an issue for us, but admittedly I'm not the most devout. Obviously there will be more negotiating if we ever have children together, though we've already discussed and agreed on a macro-level approach in that regard.

Besides that, I think the biggest concern it raises is that if we ever get married some of my distant relatives will be startled by the limited religious content of the ceremony.

[Bracken_Joy]

One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.

I think this is a bigger issue if you have kids than if you don't, since it gets into "how do we raise them/do we baptize" type questions. Without kids, it can be a live and let live arrangement.

Not that I can talk, I'm an atheist who married an atheist.

[MasterStache]

One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.

I'll be honest and say before my wife I dated a couple different super religious women and didn't particularly enjoy it. It's my own anecdotal evidence though. My grandma, 98 years old, has been a devout Christian attending Church every Sunday her entire life. My grandfather I don't believe ever stepped foot in a Church unless it was for spacial occasions. They were married just shy of 50 years before he passed.

My wife and I both share similar views about religion now. Basically we aren't religious.   

[limeandpepper]

I don't see FB as a place to post any personal woes, particularly marital dirty laundry. For me, FB is just a place to share fun things happening in my life and occasionally ask for help or whatever. I certainly don't think of it as a depiction of my real life.

Exactly!

Sure, some people might be carefully curating what they post on Facebook, but I find it overly cynical to say that everyone on it is trying to present their lives as perfect. Many people have not only their closest friends and family on FB but also distant relatives and acquaintances and colleagues, etc. If I want to confide about personal stuff I'd want to talk to someone I'm close to more privately, not announce it to everyone I've ever added on the platform and turn my life into some kind of online drama series and have people gossiping. And it's not just the bad stuff! I mean, I'm not going to post something like "Just had the best sex ever!!" - which, if one's theory about FB is that it's all about showing off, well, then lots of people would be posting that. But they're not (or at least not in my circles), so the more plausible theory is that most regular people are just drawing their own lines about what they personally feel is appropriate to share with their social groups.

Having said that, occasionally I do see people on Facebook who seem to be trying a little too hard, and I do have a pet peeve about Instagram hashtags like #liveauthentic etc. used earnestly. That usually indicates to me someone is actually intentionally making their life seem better than others, which ironically is not so authentic. But I don't think it's a huge issue with the people in my social groups, and if it was, I'd probably do some unfollowing.

I won't lie, I have Instagram and Facebook. And although they are both good for certain things, they both annoy the hell out of me. People are abusing the shit out of them and it literally makes people insane. And it ruins relationships.

That sounds pretty bad if that happens often, unless that is an exaggeration, perhaps you should associate with more grounded people if you're hanging out with people who are making their lives a mess with social platforms?

I have people from the age range of 20s - 70s on my Facebook, and I do see a bit of a difference in how the younger ones use it vs the older ones, in my circle at least. The younger ones do tend to post about their relationships more, in regards to anniversary, gifts, and how great their partner is or whatever, while the older ones don't really? I can see how that kind of thing can lead to observers thinking that someone's relationship is better than theirs. But you just have to remember that these are mere snapshots of someone's life that can never tell the whole story.

[nwhiker]

One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.

This is my DW and I. My wife is Mormon and growing up she really wanted to have a church family. We meet in college and I had gone to various churches and in general was trying to find some meaning in life. Short story we dated and I was impressed with the community in the church and converted.  We had a temple wedding and I was very involved in the church. I feel back into my doubts from early years and eventually left the church and I am an atheist.

This obviously caused some issues. There were a couple of things that helped us work through this. We did go to counseling but it frankly didn't help. The biggest thing was mutual respect. That was never an issue with my wife but after leaving the church I initially wanted to prove I was right. Understanding that her religious beliefs were not a threat to our marriage went a long way. Also I understood that this issue was something that had been important to my wife her entire life and since I was the one that changed I would need to make some concessions if the marriage would last.
Overall the concessions are pretty small. She doesn't want me to drink in front of the kids or her. Our kids are being raised in the church. We are open with the kids and both agree that they will make their own decisions.

We have now been married for 18 years and I believe we love each other more than the say we got married.

[rdaneel0]

We're only 10 years in, so take everything I say with a massive grain of salt:

1. We laugh a lot.
2. We do fun things together, even when we're busy or stressed out.
3. We do fun things separately. I think this is pretty key. I have my book club and a social club and hobbies that DH doesn't share, and he has lots of interests, hobbies, things he reads about, and fitness pursuits I don't share. We talk to each other to recap what we've learned or experienced and I think it keeps things fresh and keep us interested in our own lives and each other.
4. Never stop working on yourself. Marriage is like the ultimate self-improvement boot camp, but I think some people have a tendency to focus on their partner's perceived deficiencies instead of their own. Fixing yourself is possible but fixing someone else is not.
5. No nagging. Ever!
6. Forgive quickly and completely, barring something catastrophic to trust. Never bring up past hurts or issues in current disagreements.
7. Don't keep score.
8. Stay attractive to your partner, within reason.
9. Keep dating and romancing! My husband leaves me a cute note every single morning. Sometimes it's just "love you, can't wait for the weekend!" but it means the world to me that he's never stopped. I still plan surprises for him, etc.
10. Give attention when it's asked for. So, even if I don't particularly want to hear another work story, if my husband starts talking to me I put down what I'm doing and listen. I think being dismissive is damaging over the longterm.
11. Remember you're on the same team, especially when shit hits the fan life-wise.
12. Communicate in a way that resolves issues. Lots of couples talk about their differences over and over, but never come to a real conclusion or delve below the surface level issues.
13. Remember your partner is an individual person with their own feelings and needs. Your way is not the only right way, and neither is theirs.
14. Probably the biggest IMO, but choose your partner very carefully. Compatibility goes a really long way, so does figuring out all the big life questions way in advance of getting married. Interests change, but general personality and approach to life seem to be more consistent.
15. Don't assume. Don't unnecessarily read into minor comments or body language. If you need clarification just ask! You are not a mind reader.
16. Remember that no one but you is responsible for your feelings and overall sense of well being.
17. Let the little shit go. Not everything warrants a massive discussion. Sometimes people are just snippy or tired or particular about weird things. Roll with it, it's not a big deal.
18. Be flexible about the future, the person you marry will change and so will you. It's ok to revise and revisit stuff.
19. Practice gratitude for your partner and your life in general. Never forget why you fell in love and chose this person! Thank them, always, for the things they do. Don't take them for granted.
20. Be the partner you want.

[Zikoris]

Not married, but in a nearly decade long relationship. We prioritize our relationship above practically everything else, and definitely do stuff to keep it strong. Off the top of my head:

1. We're both big into problem-solving, so if there's a problem we're generally both pretty eager to find and implement a solution asap.
2. We're also both extremely direct and straightforward, so we don't have miscommunication issues - zero mind reading is required.
3. We do a lot of activities and date stuff, like go to movies, or go hiking.
4. We have home-cooked meals together every single day.
5. We have very distinct roles and domains, which avoids the head-butting and keeping score that some couples do. We both hold up our end of the bargain, and do a good job of the things we're responsible for.
6. We talk a LOT, and spend a lot of time together. We don't have television service of any kind, which probably helps with that.
7. We do nice things for each other pretty often. For example, I bake him treats a lot, since he loves every kind of baked good.
8. We really encourage each other in all areas of life. If I'm ever thinking about trying to cook something new and second-guessing, he shows up with all the ingredients and "Oh it sounds so delicious! MMMM Make it! Yum!". When he wasn't sure if he should freelance full time last summer, I encouraged him to just do it, and quit his day job, since I knew it would be better for him.

We also have the benefit of just having extremely similar personalities and preferences. We both like home cooked food way better then restaurants. We both like small space living. Neither of us like partying or alcohol  or anything like that. We both value quality of life a lot. Neither of us are career or status oriented. We have the same travel style. It just all works very well.

[Tass]

5. No nagging. Ever!

I'm curious about this one. Does nagging just involve using a certain nag-y tone of voice? Surely it doesn't extend to, like, requesting a household chore be done? I think a lot of negotiating who's doing what happens out loud in my partnership, but never in a frustrated tone of voice, and usually neither of us has to ask more than once. I consider it part of healthy communication. To be fair, though, we've only lived together a few months.

[rdaneel0]

5. No nagging. Ever!

I'm curious about this one. Does nagging just involve using a certain nag-y tone of voice? Surely it doesn't extend to, like, requesting a household chore be done? I think a lot of negotiating who's doing what happens out loud in my partnership, but never in a frustrated tone of voice, and usually neither of us has to ask more than once. I consider it part of healthy communication. To be fair, though, we've only lived together a few months.

Oh I think request are totally fine. I think of nagging as hounding someone, repeatedly, to do or not do the same thing over and over again. Like if I ask my husband to pick something up, I ask once and just trust that he'll do it at some point. I'd consider it nagging if I was like "hey did you get X yet?" "so when are you getting X?" "I thought you said you'd get X for me" "where is X? "Why haven't you gone to get X yet?" etc.

Does that make sense?

[Villanelle]

This comment isn't generally well received as it can come off as sort of victim-blaming.  But I think the most important thing is actually to invest in your pre-marriage.  Don't rush.  Be rational.  Discuss the big topics and don't bury your head in the sand when incompatibilities come up.  Always be okay walking away, even from someone you love, if there are fundamental incompatibilities that you can't hammer out clearly.  (Things like wanting kids or religion, but even things like how to spend time with families during holidays.  And certainly financial incompatibilities.  In 17 years of marriage, DH and I never once had a fight or even an argument about money.  And that's not because of some super-power level conflict resolution.  It's because we are extremely financially compatible. ) 

Certainly these things are fool-proof.  But I'd say that building the solid foundation before the wedding even occurs is really the most important thing.  And the continuing to talk about these things as they come up and as life changes.  I *never* would have said that I wanted to be a SAH wife, so it's not something we discussed.  Life happened and it became necessary if DH and I wanted to live on the same continent.  So we discussed it then and were both very brutally honest about our feelings and fears and concerns and priorities. 

Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry".  In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something.  I need time to feel my feelings and process them.  And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them.  If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us.  Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process.  So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships.  More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame". 

Perhaps the single biggest thing I think we've done is just give each other the benefit of the doubt in pretty much all things.  If he says something that hurts my feelings, I know is character and thus am confident it wasn't his intention.  If he's doing something that makes me feel something negative, I assume he either has very good reason because otherwise he would never choose to do that, or he has innocently failed to see some implication or consideration.  So I approach things from that perspective, and never from the perspective of him being selfish or intentionally hurtful or mean. 

[davisgang90]

My wife and I are 27 years in.  We've weathered a special needs child, military deployments, moves etc for a long time.

We work hard to put the other first and we try to follow many of the ideas others have made about going to bed angry etc.

We both got a lot out of a study we did many years ago called the Five Love Languages.  The bottom line is finding out how your spouse feels loved since all of us are different in what we value from a spouse.  It is a christian study, but there isn't a lot of preaching, it is more a series of discussions to find out what your spouse most wants/needs from you as far as affirmation.

[mbl]

I am just brokenhearted reading the stories on the MMM divorce thread.

Can you point to where this thread is?  thx

[rdaneel0]

I am just brokenhearted reading the stories on the MMM divorce thread.

Can you point to where this thread is?  thx

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/mmm-is-now-divorced-from-mrs-mm/250/?topicseen

[jrhampt]

20 years together/12 years married.  I just married someone I really enjoy and like to spend time with, and the rough edges on our few areas of disagreement have been polished off over the years until our relationship seems very easy.  That said, I hope we’re still in the early years of our relationship and that we get 40 more years together.   I only have a few tips: schedule sex so it is a priority and be kind to each other.  Don’t threaten divorce ever during a disagreement, even as a joke.

[bwall]

Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry".  In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something.  I need time to feel my feelings and process them.  And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them.  If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us.  Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process.  So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".   

+1

Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.

I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.

[Bracken_Joy]

Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry".  In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something.  I need time to feel my feelings and process them.  And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them.  If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us.  Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process.  So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".   

+1

Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.

I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.

Definitely agree. I think people underestimate how important sleep is to emotional regulation, too. I am not a thoughtful, patient person when I need to sleep. We're all secretly giant toddlers walking around, and we need to 'parent' ourselves. You're not going to reason well if you're tired or hungry. So I much prefer "sleep on it" as advice!

[Louisville]

Frequent and savage fart battles.

[rdaneel0]

Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry".  In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something.  I need time to feel my feelings and process them.  And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them.  If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us.  Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process.  So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".   

+1

Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.

I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.

Definitely agree. I think people underestimate how important sleep is to emotional regulation, too. I am not a thoughtful, patient person when I need to sleep. We're all secretly giant toddlers walking around, and we need to 'parent' ourselves. You're not going to reason well if you're tired or hungry. So I much prefer "sleep on it" as advice!

Yep, I agree completely. I'm also all for using alternative forms of communication. My husband and I have, at various points during high intensity disagreements/issues, conducted our conversations over email. I know this sounds odd, but my mind works much faster in conversation than DH's, and he would often get flustered and not be able to put things together in the moment. On the other hand I'm terrible at conflict and saying anything critical of him, so it's often easier for me to bring up sensitive things like that in an email where I can really carefully phrase what I'm feeling and what I need. It works very well for us!

[Bracken_Joy]

Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry".  In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something.  I need time to feel my feelings and process them.  And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them.  If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us.  Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process.  So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".   

+1

Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.

I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.

Definitely agree. I think people underestimate how important sleep is to emotional regulation, too. I am not a thoughtful, patient person when I need to sleep. We're all secretly giant toddlers walking around, and we need to 'parent' ourselves. You're not going to reason well if you're tired or hungry. So I much prefer "sleep on it" as advice!

Yep, I agree completely. I'm also all for using alternative forms of communication. My husband and I have, at various points during high intensity disagreements/issues, conducted our conversations over email. I know this sounds odd, but my mind works much faster in conversation than DH's, and he would often get flustered and not be able to put things together in the moment. On the other hand I'm terrible at conflict and saying anything critical of him, so it's often easier for me to bring up sensitive things like that in an email where I can really carefully phrase what I'm feeling and what I need. It works very well for us!

We totally do this. I'll sit down and write something up, email it (even if we're in the same place), and then discuss it in person after. It creates a really good starting point for us.

[rdaneel0]

@Bracken_Joy  Hah! Glad to know we aren't the only ones :)

[OurTown]

@rdaneel0 your list is gold.

[ketchup]

One thing I'm curious about in terms of marriages or relationships ending.. are there many here who have differing religious views with their partner? Can that be a threat to the relationship? I would like to think this is something that is discussed openly way ahead of time so I'm not sure this would have much of an impact on a marriage.

I'm socially cordial with the religious beliefs of others, but there's personally no way I could be in a serious long-term romantic relationship with someone that was ardently religious (atheist sleeping with an atheist here).  It just implies a massive mismatch in priorities to my own.

I'm sure that mindset varies person to person.  It should definitely be frankly discussed way the fuck ahead of marriage.

[Greyweld]

Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry".  In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something.  I need time to feel my feelings and process them.  And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them.  If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us.  Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process.  So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".   

+1

Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.

I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.

Definitely agree. I think people underestimate how important sleep is to emotional regulation, too. I am not a thoughtful, patient person when I need to sleep. We're all secretly giant toddlers walking around, and we need to 'parent' ourselves. You're not going to reason well if you're tired or hungry. So I much prefer "sleep on it" as advice!

Yep, I agree completely. I'm also all for using alternative forms of communication. My husband and I have, at various points during high intensity disagreements/issues, conducted our conversations over email. I know this sounds odd, but my mind works much faster in conversation than DH's, and he would often get flustered and not be able to put things together in the moment. On the other hand I'm terrible at conflict and saying anything critical of him, so it's often easier for me to bring up sensitive things like that in an email where I can really carefully phrase what I'm feeling and what I need. It works very well for us!

We totally do this. I'll sit down and write something up, email it (even if we're in the same place), and then discuss it in person after. It creates a really good starting point for us.

When I'm really upset, I'll often write a note/journal entry then read it to Greyman later. I don't talk well when I'm upset, but when I'm upset is when I have all my reasons for being upset in mind. It works better for me to write something out when I'm feeling the feelings, then readdress it when I'm calmer, figure out what the actual problems are that need solving and bring them up at a time when I normally wouldn't bring them up, because then I'm not presently upset!

[aetherie]

Following! Husband and I have been together for almost 6 years and married for 1.5. So far it's been mostly very easy. We read Gottman's "Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" together (while chilling on a beach on our honeymoon, actually) and liked it a lot. Always interested to hear more tips from people further along on the journey.

[EnjoyIt]

Also, I balk at "don't go to bed angry".  In many cases, I don't do well if put on the spot to discuss something.  I need time to feel my feelings and process them.  And frankly when given that, most of the time I can work through them to the point that I'm no longer frustrated or angry or disappointed, or if I am, it's much more under control so I can have a productive conversation about them.  If I were forced to talk about X because it was 10 pm and we were going to bed soon, that wouldn't be good for either of us.  Let's talk about it tomorrow after work when we have plenty of time and I've been able to process.  So I think "don't go to bed angry" can actually hurt some relationships. More important is "don't not talk about what made you angry within a reasonable time frame".   

+1

Sometimes I've been so upset, that for me not to go to bed angry would mean I'd stay up all night.

I heard this advice a lot when I was younger and I think it's really gives the wrong impression of how life and relationships are.

In your case maybe it could be, not going to bed angry at each other without at least agreeing that you will discuss it the next day which is what sounds ike you are doing. 

What doesn't work is holding in all the anger for months until something small happens and all that previous cooped up anger explodes all over the place.  You are arguing about picking up socks when in reality one is pissed off about so many other unresolved issues and nothing really good comes of that argument.

[Tass]

5. No nagging. Ever!

I'm curious about this one. Does nagging just involve using a certain nag-y tone of voice? Surely it doesn't extend to, like, requesting a household chore be done? I think a lot of negotiating who's doing what happens out loud in my partnership, but never in a frustrated tone of voice, and usually neither of us has to ask more than once. I consider it part of healthy communication. To be fair, though, we've only lived together a few months.

Oh I think request are totally fine. I think of nagging as hounding someone, repeatedly, to do or not do the same thing over and over again. Like if I ask my husband to pick something up, I ask once and just trust that he'll do it at some point. I'd consider it nagging if I was like "hey did you get X yet?" "so when are you getting X?" "I thought you said you'd get X for me" "where is X? "Why haven't you gone to get X yet?" etc.

Does that make sense?

It does make sense. I happen to take kind of a radical point of view that nagging is generally the fault of the person who has failed to do X without repeated requests. ;)

So, there's little nagging in my partnership because we both try to make sure it never becomes necessary for the other person to ask more than once. This doesn't necessarily mean jumping to the other person's every whim - it can also just include an acknowledgement of the request and a promise that it's in the pipeline. But I have unusually strong feelings about this because of the gendered history of nagging as a concept. I recognize my approach doesn't work for everyone. Or maybe it's the naivete of the still-dating!