Author Topic: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?  (Read 44460 times)

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #450 on: April 21, 2017, 08:05:44 PM »
Quote
Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

You are correct.  But you are forgetting the difference between car insurance/health insurance companies and the government.  Insurance companies are supposed to turn a profit. The government is supposed to serve the people, and make our lives better.

For a follower of Ayn Rand, government making people's lives better goes against the individual's will as the primary agent of freedom.

SpeedReader

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #451 on: April 25, 2017, 07:47:18 PM »
For a follower of Ayn Rand, government making people's lives better goes against the individual's will as the primary agent of freedom.
[/quote]

So I am curious; how do followers of Ayn Rand deal with things like funding for medical research to cure diseases they don't have yet?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 08:12:25 PM by SpeedReader »

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #452 on: April 26, 2017, 07:13:01 AM »
For a follower of Ayn Rand, government making people's lives better goes against the individual's will as the primary agent of freedom.

So I am curious; how do followers of Ayn Rand deal with things like funding for medical research to cure diseases they don't have yet?
[/quote]

That's a perfect example of why I wouldn't want to live in an Ayn Rand world, and taking the logic further, why we need taxes, and that government plays a role to improve our lives.

tyort1

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #453 on: April 26, 2017, 11:06:20 AM »
I believe the Randites don't really think about or value the concept of "the common good".  If you think there's no such thing as the common good, then the rest of their position is consistent with that.
Frugalite in training.

Wexler

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #454 on: April 26, 2017, 11:45:15 AM »
I believe the Randites don't really think about or value the concept of "the common good".  If you think there's no such thing as the common good, then the rest of their position is consistent with that.

I guess they think that someone will develop an affordable app to cure cancer if they ever get it and that all that NIH-funded research is just parasitical communism.  No, wait, they think that their lifehacker Crossfit and vitamin routine will make them immune to cancer.  And that anyone who gets cancer somehow deserved it and could have avoided it through better life choices.  And they will never be convinced otherwise until someone they know and love gets cancer and then, and only then, will they come around.  Of course, that will be years after they voted for politicians who systematically destroyed every institution and research facility that could have helped them.  But they will take no responsibility for such actions, instead blaming Democrats, saying they were forced to vote for politicians who wanted to defund the National Cancer Institute, because HER EMAILS and BENGHAZI and PIZZA.

This is why we can't have nice things.

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #455 on: April 26, 2017, 12:42:42 PM »
I like Ayn Rand's writing, she is an excellent writer, especially considering she wrote in English as a second language. Ultimately, she was so very pro laissex fair Free Market Capitalism because her formative years were in the corrupt as hell Communist Soviet Union.  --->She basically just went ALL THE WAY to the other side. She saw one extreme and opted for the opposite extreme in her "Objectivism."

The truth is that the best way to do things are often more middle of the road. For example, lets build some factories, but with sufficient regulation (i.e. to avoid poisoning our rivers, lakes and oceans). Lets promote free market enterprise via a national banking system (but with the FED ensuring proper access to money without overflooding the market and getting rampant inflation). Lets encourage large comporations to dominate in the national and international stage (but with the SEC around to dissuade corrupt actions and cheating within the system).

I also note that in her writing, some of the worst actors were the lying, thieving, manipulating,  "taker" politician class. What category do you think she'd put "I'm smart cause I don't pay taxes" Trump?

JGS

SpeedReader

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #456 on: April 26, 2017, 08:15:16 PM »
I used to read a lot of science fiction, so I grasp the idea of writing from an extreme point of view as Rand did.  What I don't grasp is how apparently-normal people take her writing as a blueprint for a workable society. 

I have to quibble with JustGettingStarted about the quality of Rand's writing; the zillion-page rant at the end of Atlas Shrugged was enough to make me want to slit my wrists.  :-)

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #457 on: April 27, 2017, 05:20:15 AM »
SpeedRacer -> You got to the end, didn't you? How many 1000 page books does the average person read, anyway?

mtnrider

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #458 on: April 27, 2017, 08:02:32 AM »
I like Ayn Rand's writing, she is an excellent writer, especially considering she wrote in English as a second language. Ultimately, she was so very pro laissex fair Free Market Capitalism because her formative years were in the corrupt as hell Communist Soviet Union.  --->She basically just went ALL THE WAY to the other side. She saw one extreme and opted for the opposite extreme in her "Objectivism."

The truth is that the best way to do things are often more middle of the road.

Fair point about writing in English as a second language - it couldn't have been easy.  But I totally disagree that she's an excellent writer.  She's OK, with some interesting points, but not excellent.  (And, to use her phrase, I think we can say that objectively. :) )

Picking nits: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but she didn't really live in a pure communist state.  The Soviet Union was more of a totalitarian state - the state owned everything.  In a communist state the society owns everything.  Maybe your point still stands, that she went to the other extreme - from everything being state owned to everything being individually owned?

Totally agree about the best paths being somewhere in the middle.

Jrr85

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #459 on: April 27, 2017, 10:31:40 AM »
I like Ayn Rand's writing, she is an excellent writer, especially considering she wrote in English as a second language. Ultimately, she was so very pro laissex fair Free Market Capitalism because her formative years were in the corrupt as hell Communist Soviet Union.  --->She basically just went ALL THE WAY to the other side. She saw one extreme and opted for the opposite extreme in her "Objectivism."

The truth is that the best way to do things are often more middle of the road.

Fair point about writing in English as a second language - it couldn't have been easy.  But I totally disagree that she's an excellent writer.  She's OK, with some interesting points, but not excellent.  (And, to use her phrase, I think we can say that objectively. :) )

Picking nits: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but she didn't really live in a pure communist state.  The Soviet Union was more of a totalitarian state - the state owned everything.  In a communist state the society owns everything.  Maybe your point still stands, that she went to the other extreme - from everything being state owned to everything being individually owned?

Totally agree about the best paths being somewhere in the middle.

She lived in the exact sort of communist state that has resulted everytime it's been tried.  Considering how many million die with each attempt, I think we should probably forgo on the "they just didn't do communism the right way arguments." 

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #460 on: April 28, 2017, 10:04:40 AM »
I hear you there, JR

sol

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #461 on: April 28, 2017, 10:29:11 AM »
Why all the hate for communism?  Is that just residual aftereffects from cold war propaganda?

Communism is an economic system, like capitalism, in which ownership is shared for mutual benefit instead of held privately for individual benefit.  It is a business model, not a government model. 

And America has lots of communist institutions that are popular, effective, and profitable.  Think of all the things that the American people own collectively, instead of individually, and try to understand WHY we've chosen to organize them that way.  I'll get you started with an easy one: national parks. Totally communist!

So I don't really have any problem with communism the economic model.  I have problems with authoritarianism and totalitarianism, which are the types of governments that have typically tried to implement economic communism, and have naturally let graft and corruption distort those noble goals.  But I don't think those are the inevitable consequence of collectively shared ownership of a resource, as our national parks highlight.  The key to successful institutions is good governance, not privately held ownership stakes.  That seems so obvious it almost seems silly to have to write it down.

But I'm sure someone here will disagree with me on that point, and argue that personal profit motive is the secret ingredient to America's success.  Those people must also bebetotally totally unconcerned with president Trump's conflicts of interest, because they WANT the president to run the nation for the benefit of his personal privately owned business interests.

Rimu05

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #462 on: April 28, 2017, 10:34:20 AM »
Why all the hate for communism?  Is that just residual aftereffects from cold war propaganda?

Communism is an economic system, like capitalism, in which ownership is shared for mutual benefit instead of held privately for individual benefit.  It is a business model, not a government model. 

And America has lots of communist institutions that are popular, effective, and profitable.  Think of all the things that the American people own collectively, instead of individually, and try to understand WHY we've chosen to organize them that way.  I'll get you started with an easy one: national parks. Totally communist!

So I don't really have any problem with communism the economic model.  I have problems with authoritarianism and totalitarianism, which are the types of governments that have typically tried to implement economic communism, and have naturally let graft and corruption distort those noble goals.  But I don't think those are the inevitable consequence of collectively shared ownership of a resource, as our national parks highlight.  The key to successful institutions is good governance, not privately held ownership stakes.  That seems so obvious it almost seems silly to have to write it down.

But I'm sure someone here will disagree with me on that point, and argue that personal profit motive is the secret ingredient to America's success.  Those people must also bebetotally totally unconcerned with president Trump's conflicts of interest, because they WANT the president to run the nation for the benefit of his personal privately owned business interests.

I feel you mistake socialism with communism.

In general, there is no state in the world that functions with one political, economic, and philosophical ideal.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 10:38:02 AM by Rimu05 »

sol

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #463 on: April 28, 2017, 11:09:46 AM »
I feel you mistake socialism with communism.

Isn't socialism just communism plus democracy?  In the sense that communism is about collective ownership, and not political structures, I don't see the conflict there.  Communism is the opposite of capitalism, not the opposite of democracy.

I think it's easy to find fatal flaws with 20th century communist states (such as the mass murders mentioned above).  It's less easy to find fatal flaws with the idea of collective ownership of economic assets.  At least in some situations, I think collective ownership by all citizens makes more sense than private ownership.  Capitalism's devotion to private ownership has certainly generated its fair share of problems, too.

GuitarStv

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #464 on: April 29, 2017, 09:56:13 AM »
I feel you mistake socialism with communism.

Isn't socialism just communism plus democracy?  In the sense that communism is about collective ownership, and not political structures, I don't see the conflict there.  Communism is the opposite of capitalism, not the opposite of democracy.

I think it's easy to find fatal flaws with 20th century communist states (such as the mass murders mentioned above).  It's less easy to find fatal flaws with the idea of collective ownership of economic assets.  At least in some situations, I think collective ownership by all citizens makes more sense than private ownership.  Capitalism's devotion to private ownership has certainly generated its fair share of problems, too.

They're very different ideas at their core.

In a communist system there is no private ownership of anything.  You are given what the state determines you need, you work the job the state determines you are suited for.  It's the extreme opposite of capitalism.

In a socialist system there is private ownership.  The government is responsible for regulating things to rein in the excesses of capitalism (an attempt to prevent extreme wealth concentration, wild market swings in price that would hurt people, etc.), but citizens are still free to choose their jobs, to amass fortunes, and to determine their own needs.

GilbertB

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #465 on: April 30, 2017, 07:56:13 PM »
I feel you mistake socialism with communism.

Isn't socialism just communism plus democracy?  In the sense that communism is about collective ownership, and not political structures, I don't see the conflict there.  Communism is the opposite of capitalism, not the opposite of democracy.

I think it's easy to find fatal flaws with 20th century communist states (such as the mass murders mentioned above).  It's less easy to find fatal flaws with the idea of collective ownership of economic assets.  At least in some situations, I think collective ownership by all citizens makes more sense than private ownership.  Capitalism's devotion to private ownership has certainly generated its fair share of problems, too.

They're very different ideas at their core.

In a communist system there is no private ownership of anything.  You are given what the state determines you need, you work the job the state determines you are suited for.  It's the extreme opposite of capitalism.

In a socialist system there is private ownership.  The government is responsible for regulating things to rein in the excesses of capitalism (an attempt to prevent extreme wealth concentration, wild market swings in price that would hurt people, etc.), but citizens are still free to choose their jobs, to amass fortunes, and to determine their own needs.
People are often confused because communist regimes add "socialist" to their name for PR...

DavidAnnArbor

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Jrr85

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #467 on: May 01, 2017, 11:27:22 AM »
Why all the hate for communism?  Is that just residual aftereffects from cold war propaganda?

Communism is an economic system, like capitalism, in which ownership is shared for mutual benefit instead of held privately for individual benefit.  It is a business model, not a government model. 

And America has lots of communist institutions that are popular, effective, and profitable.  Think of all the things that the American people own collectively, instead of individually, and try to understand WHY we've chosen to organize them that way.  I'll get you started with an easy one: national parks. Totally communist!

So I don't really have any problem with communism the economic model.  I have problems with authoritarianism and totalitarianism, which are the types of governments that have typically tried to implement economic communism, and have naturally let graft and corruption distort those noble goals.  But I don't think those are the inevitable consequence of collectively shared ownership of a resource, as our national parks highlight.  The key to successful institutions is good governance, not privately held ownership stakes.  That seems so obvious it almost seems silly to have to write it down.

But I'm sure someone here will disagree with me on that point, and argue that personal profit motive is the secret ingredient to America's success.  Those people must also bebetotally totally unconcerned with president Trump's conflicts of interest, because they WANT the president to run the nation for the benefit of his personal privately owned business interests.

"communist" does not equal "communal". 

And yes, authoritarianism/totalitarianism are pretty much inevitable with communism, as you're not going to get humans on this planet to live in a country without private ownership without also having the threat of force to make things "work". 

You can sort of have communes that work without regard to private property (at least within the group) and maybe get up to some small villages, but get any larger than that, and the personal connections necessary to replace personal incentives are too attenuated.   

talltexan

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #468 on: May 05, 2017, 02:00:29 PM »
posting to follow

surfhb

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #469 on: May 07, 2017, 07:48:50 PM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

Dude !  cmon.    A system where people are forced to go without the correct care and/or forced to go into debt is just plain evil.   

Healthcare is not a product we just offer to those who have the means. 

You sound like some twenty something kid  who hasn't had to deal with what life dishes out sometimes .  .

Sorry but I'll gladly pay so my neighbor who's mentally ill or has a preexisting condition is covered by MY taxes. 

You're too young to remember what it was like before the ACA.   You basically have no opinion which means jack dick to someone like me who's had to deal with these issue. 


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KBecks

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #470 on: May 08, 2017, 05:41:11 AM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 05:47:42 AM by KBecks »

former player

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #471 on: May 08, 2017, 06:45:41 AM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.

Not all injury or disease is due to people failing to make healthy choices.  What about people who need health care for reasons that can't possibly be described as their fault?  Is being born with a genetic defect and needing health care because of it "stealing"? Is getting a work-related injury and needing healthcare "stealing"?  Is getting old and infirm and needing health care because of it "stealing"?  Is having someone in an SUV cross the median and crash into you so that you need healthcare for your injuries "stealing"?

What about the people for whom there are compound reasons for needing health care?  What if that SUV accident broke your spine so you are in a wheelchair so you can't exercise and get a "lifestyle" disease as a result - is your need for healthcare "stealing"?

Let's suppose someone's unhealthy lifestyle has contributed to their ill health, either wholly or in part.  Who judges that?  Does the government?  Do the insurance companies?  Who says to someone "you haven't lived a healthy life, therefore you have diabetes 2, therefore we are not going to treat you"?  Would you like to do that job?  How much would you need to be paid to do that job, or would you do it for free?
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

KBecks

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #472 on: May 08, 2017, 07:37:33 AM »
Of course not.   Sometimes people are born with health issues or suffer accidents are bad luck.  That is part of life.  Life is sadly not fair or ideal, nor can we force it to be that way.

What I refer to as stealing is -- using services without paying for them.  If you go to the doctor and do not pay the doctor, and have no intention of ever paying for what you received, that is stealing and it is wrong.  You used the service, you received vital care, you are responsible for paying for it so that doctor and health care provider can continue to operate and provide services to others.   You might go into debt.  It happens.   You might file bankruptcy due to medical bills.  That happens too.  But we cannot say that people are entitled to free health care, because there is no such thing as free care.  We need to live in reality.  How would it ever be right to receive important care and then say to the provider -- screw you, I'm not paying?

No one judges someone else's health.  All I'm saying is that people are responsible for their actions and they are responsible for paying for their health care.  In that way, there is an added financial motive for people to pursue a healthy lifestyle.   Don't smoke, save on health insurance,  maintain a healthy weight, save on health insurance,  keep your blood pressure down, save on health insurance, etc.



KBecks

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #474 on: May 08, 2017, 08:11:04 AM »
What, no EMTALA?  That's the implication of your post, and even the Republican Freedom Caucus aren't talking about repealing that.

We all of us use resources all the time without paying for them.  Every time you burn fossil fuels you are using the earth's carbon sink without paying for it.

You haven't explained what is to be done about people who can't afford to pay for their own healthcare.

Your thinking seems very absolute.  This is a messy, compromised, human world in which absolutes don't exist and the desire to eliminate contradictions and compromises is more dangerous than living with them. 

Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #475 on: May 08, 2017, 08:15:16 AM »
Some articles that may be of interest

What do do when you can't pay your medical bills
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/my-money/2014/05/25/what-to-do-when-you-cant-pay-medical-bills

When patients can't pay
http://www.physicianspractice.com/medical-billing-collections/when-patients-cant-pay

What doctors do whan a patient can't pay
https://www.quora.com/What-do-doctors-do-when-a-patient-cant-pay-for-life-saving-surgery
Two articles about GP's billing uninsured patients pre-ACA and one example of EMTALA in action.  What's your point?
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

sol

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #476 on: May 08, 2017, 08:41:42 AM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.

I agree with every word of this, and I still think we need medicare-for-all style universal basic coverage.

Yes, people need to take better care of their health AND they need to have affordable guaranteed health insurance AND they need to pay for it (with taxes). 

Don't pretend that "just be healthier" is any kind of solution to America's health care crisis.  That's solving the wrong problem.  What we need is affordable care for everyone, that everyone pays for and everyone qualifies for.  No exclusions, no high risk pools, no for-profit corporations driving up cost overruns, and no freeloaders getting care for free.  Universal coverage, universally paid for.  This solution currently works in America for disability insurance and survivor insurance, and old age insurance, as well as a lot of non-traditional insurance products like national defense that we all pay for to keep us safe.  This solution is not only better for individuals, it's also better for our society as a whole.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #477 on: May 08, 2017, 09:12:17 AM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.

I agree with every word of this, and I still think we need medicare-for-all style universal basic coverage.

Yes, people need to take better care of their health AND they need to have affordable guaranteed health insurance AND they need to pay for it (with taxes). 

Don't pretend that "just be healthier" is any kind of solution to America's health care crisis.  That's solving the wrong problem.  What we need is affordable care for everyone, that everyone pays for and everyone qualifies for.  No exclusions, no high risk pools, no for-profit corporations driving up cost overruns, and no freeloaders getting care for free.  Universal coverage, universally paid for.  This solution currently works in America for disability insurance and survivor insurance, and old age insurance, as well as a lot of non-traditional insurance products like national defense that we all pay for to keep us safe.  This solution is not only better for individuals, it's also better for our society as a whole.

I don't get the "it's not free" argument. I know it's not free. I just would rather pay for it though taxation than the current private insurance premium system. Why is that so horrific?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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pbkmaine

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #478 on: May 08, 2017, 09:12:47 AM »
Please tell my 7-year old granddaughter, who had a brain tumor that was successfully (and very expensively) treated, that she should have lived a healthier lifestyle.

MasterStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #479 on: May 08, 2017, 10:44:40 AM »

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right. 


Affordable, quality healthcare FOR ALL should absolutely be a basic human right of every American. 

sol

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #480 on: May 08, 2017, 11:11:56 AM »

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right. 


Affordable, quality healthcare FOR ALL should absolutely be a basic human right of every American.

Up to a minimum level of care, at the very least.   We can't offer everyone free plastic surgery. 

And I accept that in some cases, universal coverage will refuse to offer the potentially lifesaving experimental procedures for a person who is likely to die anyway.  There has to be some discretion on what is covered.  Basic care should absolutely be covered, including preventative care and emergency care at a minimum.  I think everyone agrees on those.

And this guaranteed care world not be free, or a gift.  Everyone would pay for it through their taxes.  And like roads and schools and everything else taxes pay for, some people who are too poor would pay effectively no taxes while the billionaires would pay more to make up for it.  This is the normal way we pay for everything else.

The current republican bill is the worst kind of betrayal imaginable.  It means higher premiums, fewer people with coverage, reduced consumer protections, and oh yes don't forget all that savings isn't even being used to reduce the deficit but is instead just handed to rich people as a tax break.  It is the exact opposite of everything Trump promised during the campaign. 

Even the most hardcore Trump supporters should hate this bill with a burning passion. 

pbkmaine

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #481 on: May 08, 2017, 11:40:45 AM »

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right. 


Affordable, quality healthcare FOR ALL should absolutely be a basic human right of every American.

Up to a minimum level of care, at the very least.   We can't offer everyone free plastic surgery. 

And I accept that in some cases, universal coverage will refuse to offer the potentially lifesaving experimental procedures for a person who is likely to die anyway.  There has to be some discretion on what is covered.  Basic care should absolutely be covered, including preventative care and emergency care at a minimum.  I think everyone agrees on those.

And this guaranteed care world not be free, or a gift.  Everyone would pay for it through their taxes.  And like roads and schools and everything else taxes pay for, some people who are too poor would pay effectively no taxes while the billionaires would pay more to make up for it.  This is the normal way we pay for everything else.

The current republican bill is the worst kind of betrayal imaginable.  It means higher premiums, fewer people with coverage, reduced consumer protections, and oh yes don't forget all that savings isn't even being used to reduce the deficit but is instead just handed to rich people as a tax break.  It is the exact opposite of everything Trump promised during the campaign. 

Even the most hardcore Trump supporters should hate this bill with a burning passion.

I really don't understand why the Republicans voted for this.

sol

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #482 on: May 08, 2017, 12:02:32 PM »
I really don't understand why the Republicans voted for this.

I suspect that the answer here is not some great mystery;  they voted for it because it's a huge tax cut for the wealthy and that's ultimately the only thing the republican party really cares about.

Everything else is secondary.  They don't really care about how healthcare works, because the wealthy already have good healthcare.  They don't really care about entitlement spending, unless it interferes with their tax cuts.  They don't even care about the raging undercurrent of populism that got trump elected, except as a means to enact more tax cuts for the wealthy (ironically, very anti-populist).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 12:08:25 PM by sol »

Jrr85

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #483 on: May 08, 2017, 01:14:46 PM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.

I agree with every word of this, and I still think we need medicare-for-all style universal basic coverage.

Yes, people need to take better care of their health AND they need to have affordable guaranteed health insurance AND they need to pay for it (with taxes). 

Don't pretend that "just be healthier" is any kind of solution to America's health care crisis.  That's solving the wrong problem.

It's not solving the problem, but considering how much of government healthcare dollars go to lifestyle conditions, it certainly would solve a big chunk of one.  It might end up driving costs in different ways as healthier people live a long time in nursing homes rather than dying from complications from diabetes and heart disease.  Not sure if public policy is an appropriate tool to address it, but if so, it certainly would be one of the biggest levers we could pull.   

  What we need is affordable care for everyone, that everyone pays for and everyone qualifies for.  No exclusions, no high risk pools, no for-profit corporations driving up cost overruns, and no freeloaders getting care for free.  Universal coverage, universally paid for.  This solution currently works in America for disability insurance and survivor insurance, and old age insurance, as well as a lot of non-traditional insurance products like national defense that we all pay for to keep us safe.  This solution is not only better for individuals, it's also better for our society as a whole.
It has "worked" for long term disability and old age insurance because we had favorable demographic trends that allowed people to enjoy more "insurance" than they were willing to pay for.  It's yet to be seen how it works as that is no longer the case. 

tyort1

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #484 on: May 08, 2017, 03:12:33 PM »
What demographics are you talking about?  Last I checked, Millennials now officially outnumber Boomers.  Seems like demographics are just fine.
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stoaX

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #485 on: May 08, 2017, 03:39:14 PM »
What demographics are you talking about?  Last I checked, Millennials now officially outnumber Boomers.  Seems like demographics are just fine.

I think the demographics referred to was when the baby boomers were all well before retirement age, working and contributing to social security.  As the term "boomers" suggests, there were lots of them.  So while there may be more people younger than boomers themselves, I don't think they quite have the overwhelming numbers as the baby boomers did compared to older generations.  Couple that with declining workforce participation rates and the social security programs become more of a challenge to fund.

tyort1

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #486 on: May 08, 2017, 08:53:40 PM »
I think the demographics referred to was when the baby boomers were all well before retirement age, working and contributing to social security.  As the term "boomers" suggests, there were lots of them.  So while there may be more people younger than boomers themselves, I don't think they quite have the overwhelming numbers as the baby boomers did compared to older generations.  Couple that with declining workforce participation rates and the social security programs become more of a challenge to fund.

Another good reason to open our borders - more immigrants means more young workers to pay for the boomer cash suck.  Haha, I am only kidding. 
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Kris

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #487 on: May 09, 2017, 08:19:21 AM »
The government was apparently a hell of a lot smarter about insurance seventy years ago:

http://boingboing.net/2017/05/03/greatest-generation.html

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

surfhb

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #488 on: May 09, 2017, 09:30:28 AM »
I really don't understand why the Republicans voted for this.

I suspect that the answer here is not some great mystery;  they voted for it because it's a huge tax cut for the wealthy and that's ultimately the only thing the republican party really cares about.

Everything else is secondary.  They don't really care about how healthcare works, because the wealthy already have good healthcare.  They don't really care about entitlement spending, unless it interferes with their tax cuts.  They don't even care about the raging undercurrent of populism that got trump elected, except as a means to enact more tax cuts for the wealthy (ironically, very anti-populist).

That and anything they can do to undermine the policies of the last 8 years with that darn n**ger in the White House.     

It's interesting since every hardened republican I know (I live in "The OC") is a flat out racist to begin with.   This country has not passed the civil rights act of the 60s I'm afraid and president trump is living proof of that. 

If Obama had been a young, good looking white boy with a beautiful wife and 2 young girls, I'm convinced he'd be one of the most popular presidents since Kennedy.   

 *shrugs*
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 09:51:23 AM by surfhb »

talltexan

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #489 on: May 09, 2017, 09:39:21 AM »
I really don't understand why the Republicans voted for this.

I suspect that the answer here is not some great mystery;  they voted for it because it's a huge tax cut for the wealthy and that's ultimately the only thing the republican party really cares about.

Everything else is secondary.  They don't really care about how healthcare works, because the wealthy already have good healthcare.  They don't really care about entitlement spending, unless it interferes with their tax cuts.  They don't even care about the raging undercurrent of populism that got trump elected, except as a means to enact more tax cuts for the wealthy (ironically, very anti-populist).

That and anything they can do to undermine the policies of the last 8 years with that darn n****r in the White House.     

It's interesting since every hardened republican I know (I live in "The OC") is a flat out racist to begin with.   This country has not passed the civil rights act of the 60s I'm afraid and president trump is living proof of that. 


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I think there's support that being perceived as "undoing Obamacare" was absolutely necessary to Republicans. They've been very successful at messaging to keep their base from connecting benefits from that law to the "Obamacare" brand. I think the backlash from conservative media over last week's budget deal made having some achievement--any achievement--seem incredibly urgent.

With the 2018 election season this far away, I think passing a bad bill now is much safer than passing a bad bill later on for Congressmen who will have to face the voters.

golden1

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #490 on: May 09, 2017, 09:57:47 AM »
Quote
The government was apparently a hell of a lot smarter about insurance seventy years ago:

http://boingboing.net/2017/05/03/greatest-generation.html

This makes a really good point.  Roosevelt came up with the "Second Bill of Rights" idea near the end of WW2 when country unity was at it's highest.  I believe that the British also formed the British health care system post WW2 out of the same spirit of national unity. 

I really think the main reason we don't have single payer is because we don't have that ethic anymore.  We have fractured and psychologically divided ourselves into "deserving people" and "freeloaders".  When people don't have an outside enemy to fight or other unifying project to work on together , they turn on each other.  If anyone here has read the graphic novel "The Watchmen" (I urge everyone to read it btw) the whole idea is that the villain in the story engineered a major crisis in order to unify the world so it would get rid of nuclear weapons.  I sometimes wonder of that is what the US needs to draw us together so we can actually move forward to make some of these changes.  I don't think it has to be a negative external event necessarily, but until we actually view America as a society and all of it's members as deserving of good health care, then this is a non starter for many people.  It isn't a money problem as much as it is a culture problem. 

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #491 on: May 09, 2017, 10:31:04 AM »
I suspect mustachians who are motivated enough to invest a million dollars within a 10-20 year timeframe are highly likely to already be exercising, eating right, and be in shape.

50% of all health care dollars are spent on 5% of those using the healthcare system. This means a small number of people use most of the resources, for whatever reason, genetic, accident, lifestyle, or simply because they are very elderly and are facing the constellation of health issues prior to morbidity.

The ACA/Obamacare started to do research to find methods of healthcare that were both cost-effective and still provided good patient outcomes. There were pilot studies that showed that encouraging heavy users of health care to comply with medications and improve lifestyle helped to lower costs. The result of this research suggests that we can lower healthcare costs, improve patient outcomes, and provide guaranteed healthcare to all Americans. Just insuring that physicians and nurses wash their hands frequently helped to lower in hospital acquired diseases - which lowers health care costs.


ChpBstrd

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #492 on: May 10, 2017, 08:59:23 AM »
I suspect mustachians who are motivated enough to invest a million dollars within a 10-20 year timeframe are highly likely to already be exercising, eating right, and be in shape.

50% of all health care dollars are spent on 5% of those using the healthcare system. This means a small number of people use most of the resources, for whatever reason, genetic, accident, lifestyle, or simply because they are very elderly and are facing the constellation of health issues prior to morbidity.

The ACA/Obamacare started to do research to find methods of healthcare that were both cost-effective and still provided good patient outcomes. There were pilot studies that showed that encouraging heavy users of health care to comply with medications and improve lifestyle helped to lower costs. The result of this research suggests that we can lower healthcare costs, improve patient outcomes, and provide guaranteed healthcare to all Americans. Just insuring that physicians and nurses wash their hands frequently helped to lower in hospital acquired diseases - which lowers health care costs.

You are correct, sir. Unfortunately, much of the money for healthcare QI, outcome-based incentives, health info tech, and education was built into the ACA, and will be gutted.

Axecleaver

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #493 on: May 10, 2017, 01:19:32 PM »
Maybe. A lot of the states I work with have incorporated it into their plans, so eliminating the ACA doesn't necessarily do away with the good work that has been done on the population health side, or stuff that found its way into Medicaid 1115 waivers.

But block grants change the funding, which puts all the programs at risk.

MasterStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #494 on: May 10, 2017, 01:32:11 PM »
Quote
The government was apparently a hell of a lot smarter about insurance seventy years ago:

http://boingboing.net/2017/05/03/greatest-generation.html
  If anyone here has read the graphic novel "The Watchmen" (I urge everyone to read it btw) the whole idea is that the villain in the story engineered a major crisis in order to unify the world so it would get rid of nuclear weapons.

Or watch the movie for the sometimes lazy asses like myself. Same storyline.

GuitarStv

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #495 on: August 19, 2017, 09:32:59 AM »
Quote
The government was apparently a hell of a lot smarter about insurance seventy years ago:

http://boingboing.net/2017/05/03/greatest-generation.html
  If anyone here has read the graphic novel "The Watchmen" (I urge everyone to read it btw) the whole idea is that the villain in the story engineered a major crisis in order to unify the world so it would get rid of nuclear weapons.

Or watch the movie for the sometimes lazy asses like myself. Same storyline.

The movie was far inferior for a variety of reasons.  I'd say that the only area it surpassed the book was I'd the display of giant blue penis.

wenchsenior

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #496 on: August 19, 2017, 10:53:52 AM »
Quote
The government was apparently a hell of a lot smarter about insurance seventy years ago:

http://boingboing.net/2017/05/03/greatest-generation.html
  If anyone here has read the graphic novel "The Watchmen" (I urge everyone to read it btw) the whole idea is that the villain in the story engineered a major crisis in order to unify the world so it would get rid of nuclear weapons.

Or watch the movie for the sometimes lazy asses like myself. Same storyline.

The movie was far inferior for a variety of reasons.  I'd say that the only area it surpassed the book was I'd the display of giant blue penis.


Huh. This was not what I was expecting to see when this thread bumped after a long quiet period.

Movie was ok.  Never tried to read the graphic novel (I have trouble getting into graphic novels, generally speaking).