Author Topic: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -  (Read 2818 times)

Financial.Velociraptor

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If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« on: November 26, 2024, 03:21:07 PM »
If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door and presents a picture asking, "Have you seen this (gay, trans, brown, black, Jewish, Muslim, or otherwise "undocumented") person.  The correct answer is, "No, officer.  I have not seen this person."

rantk81

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2024, 05:55:18 AM »
Better practice is to not even answer or open the door in the first place, unless they announce that they have a warrant.

Omy

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2024, 06:46:10 AM »
If I get such a knock on my door, my response will be to gather our passports and fly to Panama to start over with the family members 47 is targeting.

GuitarStv

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2024, 07:28:43 AM »
I think telling the gestapo that the person they're looking for was last seen at a location far away from where they really are is also a valid response.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2024, 01:38:52 PM »
My husband is from Iran (making my two kids half Iranian, and who the h*ll knows what that could mean) , so ... I will be hopefully one step ahead of that door knock & already in another country.

oldtoyota

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2024, 02:27:25 PM »
When someone came to our door to ask if anyone on my street spoke Spanish, I said I did. They seemed disappointed.

Samuel

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2024, 02:40:01 PM »
If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door and presents a picture asking, "Have you seen this (gay, trans, brown, black, Jewish, Muslim, or otherwise "undocumented") person.  The correct answer is, "No, officer.  I have not seen this person."

You know you can just decline to answer and not commit the crime of knowingly making false statements to a federal officer, right?

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2024, 03:18:53 PM »
Be alert to the possibility that they may be doing a background check for someone's security clearance!

MrGreen

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2024, 03:54:57 PM »
Be alert to the possibility that they may be doing a background check for someone's security clearance!
It may be different these days but it used to be that references would get a phone call first. With the process taking as long as it does, I can't imagine that investigators have to time to make spur of the moment house visits. The failure rate for contact would be a huge time waster.

Sailor Sam

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2024, 04:39:41 PM »
I’d add that if you’re a LEO or military, know what your answer to the order to knock on doors will be.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2024, 04:43:56 PM »
Be alert to the possibility that they may be doing a background check for someone's security clearance!
It may be different these days but it used to be that references would get a phone call first. With the process taking as long as it does, I can't imagine that investigators have to time to make spur of the moment house visits. The failure rate for contact would be a huge time waster.

Hmmm. When I was a kid we definitely had a federal agent knock on the door asking about the guy across the street. I don't think we knew his last name and I can't imagine that he would have given them our name- we didn't socialize with them or anything- so I assumed they were just going around the neighborhood seeing what random neighbors had to say.

Rural

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2024, 07:40:33 PM »
May depend on clearance level. They called and scheduled a time with me for a friend, but when husband got his, they definitely went knocking on doors in his very small town.

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2024, 04:07:01 PM »
It feels like Pre-WWII isolationism. All personal memory of that war is gone. Forgotten is why we had to fight it and what the reality of "strong leaders" (dictators) will bring. We are no longer the arsenal of democracy. We will no longer police the oceans or support free trade. Don't give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Instead, we are all about God. The Christian God. The ultimate dictator who created us broken, sacrificed himself to himself to save me (thanks dad) and demands to be worshipped. As long as we "wash ourselves in the blood of Jesus" it will all be fine. Good luck world, this is the U.S., signing off, over and out.

"Honey, can you get that, I hear someone knocking at the door."
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 04:09:06 PM by blue_green_sparks »

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2024, 10:40:12 AM »
I’d add that if you’re a LEO or military, know what your answer to the order to knock on doors will be.
A lot will depend on those answers. It will- if it comes to that- reveal a lot about whether those persons want the Law or the Order. Many people just want Order where it is defined as authority and neat answers regardless of how complicated and messy life and society actually are.

Ugh.

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2024, 11:43:06 AM »
I’d add that if you’re a LEO or military, know what your answer to the order to knock on doors will be.
A lot will depend on those answers. It will- if it comes to that- reveal a lot about whether those persons want the Law or the Order. Many people just want Order where it is defined as authority and neat answers regardless of how complicated and messy life and society actually are.

Ugh.

Yes, all you said is true. Plus the element of fear. That's what I'm going to struggle with, if I'm forced to make that kind of moral decision. When it comes down to it, I'm much more afraid of physical punishment than of injury or death from accident or enemy fire. I will break under torture, and it will be the fear that hollows me out. 

If I end up in a situation where I either knock on that door or I'm incarcerated, that decision is easy and already made. Change the consequence to torture and, well. That moment of decision with fundamentally define who I am as a moral creature, and I honestly don't know if I will make the right choice. I want to make the right decision. I hope I will. But fear is an amazing force. The ever mysterious "they" have actually already broken my psyche down just a little bit, by letting me stew about these things.

Glenstache

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2024, 12:14:10 PM »
I’d add that if you’re a LEO or military, know what your answer to the order to knock on doors will be.
A lot will depend on those answers. It will- if it comes to that- reveal a lot about whether those persons want the Law or the Order. Many people just want Order where it is defined as authority and neat answers regardless of how complicated and messy life and society actually are.

Ugh.

Yes, all you said is true. Plus the element of fear. That's what I'm going to struggle with, if I'm forced to make that kind of moral decision. When it comes down to it, I'm much more afraid of physical punishment than of injury or death from accident or enemy fire. I will break under torture, and it will be the fear that hollows me out. 

If I end up in a situation where I either knock on that door or I'm incarcerated, that decision is easy and already made. Change the consequence to torture and, well. That moment of decision with fundamentally define who I am as a moral creature, and I honestly don't know if I will make the right choice. I want to make the right decision. I hope I will. But fear is an amazing force. The ever mysterious "they" have actually already broken my psyche down just a little bit, by letting me stew about these things.
This is the core of the moral question: how much (or what kind) of duress are you willing to endure or inflict for or against the authoritarian state? And how much of that decision is made through simple indifference to it happening to someone else?

Rob_bob

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2024, 01:16:31 PM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

jinga nation

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2024, 01:21:51 PM »
If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door and presents a picture asking, "Have you seen this (gay, trans, brown, black, Jewish, Muslim, or otherwise "undocumented") person.  The correct answer is, "No, officer.  I have not seen this person."

I'll just point them towards the couple down the street who are hard-core Trumpers, received "loans" from the US Gov during COVID for their small business and bought fancy vehicles immediately, frequently complain about Biden and liberals, fly stupid flags despite HOA rules, park their huge trucks on the road despite HOA rules, aren't good neighbors, and just happen to be Cubans. They also claim to be pro-Veterans and military, yet openly disparage those who served, and complain about veterans getting benefits for injuries.

Malicious compliance!

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2024, 01:57:55 PM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

Largely "open".  I wouldn't want true 100% open borders for narcos and sexual predators, but for anyone who is healthy and has no felony record (misdemeanors or local equivalent fine), I'd like to target about 5 million persons granted Permanent Resident Status per year and a streamlined path to full Citizenship.  (See the inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty for reference.)  If they bring novel culinary and music traditions with them, maybe make it 6 million.  There should be a non trivial processing fee for their Naturalization paperwork, as well.

But also make English the official language.  Learn it or go home.  If we embrace you; you embrace us back, for fuck's sake!

PeteD01

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2024, 02:01:13 PM »
If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door and presents a picture asking, "Have you seen this (gay, trans, brown, black, Jewish, Muslim, or otherwise "undocumented") person.  The correct answer is, "No, officer.  I have not seen this person."

I'll just point them towards the couple down the street who are hard-core Trumpers, received "loans" from the US Gov during COVID for their small business and bought fancy vehicles immediately, frequently complain about Biden and liberals, fly stupid flags despite HOA rules, park their huge trucks on the road despite HOA rules, aren't good neighbors, and just happen to be Cubans. They also claim to be pro-Veterans and military, yet openly disparage those who served, and complain about veterans getting benefits for injuries.

Malicious compliance!
Do not think of doing anything like this. It would precisely be the type of individual entanglement that authoritarian governance wants to create - personal grievances leading to collusion with the authorities.

It would not be malicious compliance but compliance with the project of creating a sense of paranoia in the governed and it does not matter that the target in the case you describe might be supportive of the authorities.

In fact, overt enthusiastic support of the ruler beyond organized events and such is looked at with suspicion as it indicates interest in politics.
Authoritarians try to create an environment of fear, distrust and paranoia and involvement in politics is seen as potentially threatening because authoritarians want an apathetic public to look away and be generally disengaged.

MAGA is going to learn this the hard way.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 02:05:15 PM by PeteD01 »

GuitarStv

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2024, 02:05:45 PM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

Largely "open".  I wouldn't want true 100% open borders for narcos and sexual predators, but for anyone who is healthy and has no felony record (misdemeanors or local equivalent fine), I'd like to target about 5 million persons granted Permanent Resident Status per year and a streamlined path to full Citizenship.  (See the inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty for reference.)  If they bring novel culinary and music traditions with them, maybe make it 6 million.  There should be a non trivial processing fee for their Naturalization paperwork, as well.

But also make English the official language.  Learn it or go home.  If we embrace you; you embrace us back, for fuck's sake!

It would be nice to see Americans learn to speak and write English.

Spell 'colour', 'catalogue' and 'neighbour' with a 'u'.  And learn to spell foetus properly.  Stop calling football soccer.  Stop dropping the extra letter off of traveller, cancelled, etc.  Stop reversing the 're' in 'theatre', 'centre', 'fibre'.  Zed is not s, and shouldn't be used in it's place in apologise, fantasise, idloise, realise, paralyse, etc.

:P

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2024, 02:09:24 PM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

I think America's current policy for permeant immigration falls under the "good enough" heading. The person who wants to immigrate applies for a green-card, gets investigated, and (presumably) gets lawful permanent resident status. They can either remain under LPR status, or they can apply for citizenship after 5 years of residence with good conduct. I'm sure there are Byzantium rules and stupidities that could be cleaned up, but overarchingly America uses LPR to reunite families. After that, America uses LPR to attract workers, grant asylum, and some small kerfluffum.

My stance on changing policy for temporary immigration would be to de-couple it from the employer holding the visa. Allowing employers to hold power over the visa creates horrific routes for abuse. 

My stance on illegal immigration is: if too many people try to get into the lifeboat, it will sink and everyone will die. There have to be limits at the border.* The problem is that defining and enforcing those limits is hard, draining, emotionally deadening work. Some people fix their internal moral quandary by deciding all migrants are less human than themselves. Others solve their internal discomfort by saying we should let everyone it. Neither of those stances really work, though. American needs immigration, and we need immigration control. We could make the work easier by increasing the number of asylum visas and green-cards we allow. That's the path I'd like to see.

ETA: I think @Financial.Velociraptor 's aim of 5 million green-cards per year is a good number.

*I admit that my "We must have some sort of border control" is predicated on the idea that America is anathema to the idea of true shanty towns, or people living in landfills, or people dying on the street in droves. If we're willing to allow those, then we don't actually have to have limits at the border.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 02:12:41 PM by Sailor Sam »

reeshau

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2024, 06:00:22 AM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

Largely "open".  I wouldn't want true 100% open borders for narcos and sexual predators, but for anyone who is healthy and has no felony record (misdemeanors or local equivalent fine), I'd like to target about 5 million persons granted Permanent Resident Status per year and a streamlined path to full Citizenship.  (See the inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty for reference.)  If they bring novel culinary and music traditions with them, maybe make it 6 million.  There should be a non trivial processing fee for their Naturalization paperwork, as well.

But also make English the official language.  Learn it or go home.  If we embrace you; you embrace us back, for fuck's sake!

America's strength has, through its history, been through immigration.  Anti-immigrant people are, largely, hypocritical, because they are almost certainly descendants of immigrants themselves.  And, their ancestors were not subject to quotas, skills testing, etc.

That's the history, and it's part of it.  When did we get so uppity?

The future is also part of it.  A big part of it.  Unemployment is below "full employment" levels.  But, even more, we are on a demographic decline that is common to most developed nations.  One way to add more workers per retiree?  Immigration.  Japan has some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world.  And guess what?  It has some of the worst demographics, too.  If we want to see what happens to a country with declining population, watch them.  At least that way, we'll have a warning.

Yes, we should secure our borders and have background checks.  But, if we overtly opened immigration, funding the determining system to work in some scale less than many years, we wouldn't have millions in a limbo situation that nobody wants.

I do think we need to recognize the different role border states play in this, vs. the nation as a whole.  National support should go beyond the border patrol, to other services immigrants need, like education and Healthcare.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2024, 06:50:28 AM by reeshau »

LaineyAZ

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2024, 08:42:32 AM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

Largely "open".  I wouldn't want true 100% open borders for narcos and sexual predators, but for anyone who is healthy and has no felony record (misdemeanors or local equivalent fine), I'd like to target about 5 million persons granted Permanent Resident Status per year and a streamlined path to full Citizenship.  (See the inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty for reference.)  If they bring novel culinary and music traditions with them, maybe make it 6 million.  There should be a non trivial processing fee for their Naturalization paperwork, as well.

But also make English the official language.  Learn it or go home.  If we embrace you; you embrace us back, for fuck's sake!

America's strength has, through its history, been through immigration.  Anti-immigrant people are, largely, hypocritical, because they are almost certainly descendants of immigrants themselves.  And, their ancestors were not subject to quotas, skills testing, etc.

That's the history, and it's part of it.  When did we get so uppity?

The future is also part of it.  A big part of it.  Unemployment is below "full employment" levels.  But, even more, we are on a demographic decline that is common to most developed nations.  One way to add more workers per retiree?  Immigration.  Japan has some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world.  And guess what?  It has some of the worst demographics, too.  If we want to see what happens to a country with declining population, watch them.  At least that way, we'll have a warning.

Yes, we should secure our borders and have background checks.  But, if we overtly opened immigration, funding the determining system to work in some scale less than many years, we wouldn't have millions in a limbo situation that nobody wants.

I do think we need to recognize the different role border states play in this, vs. the nation as a whole.  National support should go beyond the border patrol, to other services immigrants need, like education and Healthcare.

Yes, this is a big issue in the border states - like everyone, immigrants need health care and education.  If they are denied ways to work legally, they work illegally under the table and thus no taxes are received for these services. 
Taxpayers in border states are correct that this is an unfair burden, and there's been suggestions for years that the federal government reimburse these states.

One source of funding could be the Social Security account suspense fund (I think it's called?) which is those monies paid in by immigrants using false social security numbers and therefore cannot be claimed.  Those dollars can be redirected to the border states.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2024, 08:52:23 AM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

Largely "open".  I wouldn't want true 100% open borders for narcos and sexual predators, but for anyone who is healthy and has no felony record (misdemeanors or local equivalent fine), I'd like to target about 5 million persons granted Permanent Resident Status per year and a streamlined path to full Citizenship.  (See the inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty for reference.)  If they bring novel culinary and music traditions with them, maybe make it 6 million.  There should be a non trivial processing fee for their Naturalization paperwork, as well.

But also make English the official language.  Learn it or go home.  If we embrace you; you embrace us back, for fuck's sake!

America's strength has, through its history, been through immigration.  Anti-immigrant people are, largely, hypocritical, because they are almost certainly descendants of immigrants themselves.  And, their ancestors were not subject to quotas, skills testing, etc.

Changing laws isn't hypocritical.  And if by ancestors you mean people who immigrated to the U.S. since the 1800s, yes there were law changes during and since that time.  Perhaps banning criminals was a good move, but today we wouldn't agree with the "Chinese Exclusion Acts".  Are immigrants from China hypocrites, because at one point their ancestors couldn't immigrate to the U.S.?  In my view, changing immigration laws isn't hypocritical.

But my views also don't align on requiring immigrants learn English.  I strongly favor keeping agricultural workers - even if they don't have a visa.  Americans simply won't do the work, and the work doesn't require English.  I appreciate the work they do, and I hope they can be treated humanely while keeping the current situation in place.  There is a risk Trump deports up to half of America's agricultural workers, which would hurt the economy - perhaps even turning GDP negative (technically, a recession).

reeshau

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2024, 10:53:19 AM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

Largely "open".  I wouldn't want true 100% open borders for narcos and sexual predators, but for anyone who is healthy and has no felony record (misdemeanors or local equivalent fine), I'd like to target about 5 million persons granted Permanent Resident Status per year and a streamlined path to full Citizenship.  (See the inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty for reference.)  If they bring novel culinary and music traditions with them, maybe make it 6 million.  There should be a non trivial processing fee for their Naturalization paperwork, as well.

But also make English the official language.  Learn it or go home.  If we embrace you; you embrace us back, for fuck's sake!

America's strength has, through its history, been through immigration.  Anti-immigrant people are, largely, hypocritical, because they are almost certainly descendants of immigrants themselves.  And, their ancestors were not subject to quotas, skills testing, etc.

Changing laws isn't hypocritical.  And if by ancestors you mean people who immigrated to the U.S. since the 1800s, yes there were law changes during and since that time.  Perhaps banning criminals was a good move, but today we wouldn't agree with the "Chinese Exclusion Acts".  Are immigrants from China hypocrites, because at one point their ancestors couldn't immigrate to the U.S.?  In my view, changing immigration laws isn't hypocritical.

But my views also don't align on requiring immigrants learn English.  I strongly favor keeping agricultural workers - even if they don't have a visa.  Americans simply won't do the work, and the work doesn't require English.  I appreciate the work they do, and I hope they can be treated humanely while keeping the current situation in place.  There is a risk Trump deports up to half of America's agricultural workers, which would hurt the economy - perhaps even turning GDP negative (technically, a recession).

I mean, specifically, descendants of immigrants being against immigration is hypocritical.  Whether that is to greatly restrict opportunities for others (I.e. quotas) or simply to make them bogeymen and scapegoats.

Doubly so, when acceptance of immigration is a potential key to our long-term success, both historically and in the future, re: worker to retiree ratio.

I do support multiple languages.  It's only weird in the US.  The rest of the world gets along just fine being open to many cultures and languages.  I do understand that it can take some getting used to.

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2024, 11:32:46 AM »
I'm deeply glad DH has retired from the military because the idea of a loyalty oath of some kind (not to the constitution, to which he'd already sworn) destroying us, one way or the other, gives me a pit in my stomach even as a hypothetical. He signs it, and we are ruined morally.  He doesn't, and... well, that could get pretty awful pretty fast.

I don't even let myself think about the fact that he's legally recallable.

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2024, 11:39:22 AM »
I'm deeply glad DH has retired from the military because the idea of a loyalty oath of some kind (not to the constitution, to which he'd already sworn) destroying us, one way or the other, gives me a pit in my stomach even as a hypothetical. He signs it, and we are ruined morally.  He doesn't, and... well, that could get pretty awful pretty fast.

I don't even let myself think about the fact that he's legally recallable.

I can see a pretty clear path where USCG gets pulled into the Navy and DoD,. and the stop-loss begins. Plus the whole thing about women. Plus the whole thing about sexuality. My ass is out in the wind for a variety of reasons, and the buttons on my buttflap aren't feeling very sturdy.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2024, 11:52:10 AM by Sailor Sam »

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2024, 11:49:52 AM »
But my views also don't align on requiring immigrants learn English.  I strongly favor keeping agricultural workers - even if they don't have a visa.  Americans simply won't do the work, and the work doesn't require English.  I appreciate the work they do, and I hope they can be treated humanely while keeping the current situation in place.  There is a risk Trump deports up to half of America's agricultural workers, which would hurt the economy - perhaps even turning GDP negative (technically, a recession).

You make a good point.  I don't mind people on temporary/seasonal/migrant work Visas being unable to speak our language and likely being illiterate in their own.  (I also strongly support educating their children in our K-12, including ESL classes, at no charge.)  But it only helps them if they learn at least some English.  Back in my oilfield days, we used to issue the engineers on rigs south of Corpus 11" X 17" two sided laminated sheets.  These sheets had translation of some common phrases, some technical terms, all the directions, numbers, colors, and other items that we had learned over time were needed to conduct the business of drilling a well.  An at least somewhat English speaking hand was given these as well and minimally promoted to expedite communication.   

On day one, the Engineer or Rig man could tell a hand with no English skills to digame (give to me) four sacks of the yellow (we spray painted the pallets colors), direct where to put it, maybe use a forklift, add some useful details to the instructions such as whether to stack or open the bags, enhanced by pointing.  Within two weeks, it was normal for substantially all  hands to speak passable "rig English".  It was more of a Spanglish but it was functional.  Veterans of this scheme, got asked back for more jobs at a higher rate of pay.  Becoming fully bilingual and literate meant a "large" jump in pay. 

It was also normal for those who became literate to apply and receive their Green cards.  That is a five year path to qualifying for full citizenship.  The English greases the wheels of immigration for them.

Being from Houston (and surely some of you will think this is kind of racist), I see lots of immigrants with questionable immigration status.  Most of them delight me and I'm forever thankful for their contributions to the food scene.  (Taco Tuesday is a thing.)  But some of them retain cultural behaviors from their home country that are sort of rude here.  Such as driving below the speed limit in the fast lane.  There is a 'machismo' yearning to be in the highest status lane even though they are going slow to avoid being pulled over and getting forwarded to la migre.  They often times at Walmart put their cart in the very middle of the aisle where no one can pass and have long conversations en Espanol.  If you ask them to let you pass please, they nod like they don't understand and say "si, si, si."  When they find out you speak enough of their language to say "Por favor Usted, dejame pasar", they suddenly speak enough English to cuss you out and threaten to kick your ass.  When standing in line, they often crowd your personal space.   

Call me an ass but I think when you are in Rome,  you do as the Romans.  Being a shitty guest should not endear you to the locals nor enhance your access to legal immigration.  Learning the language is just a courteous part of that to me. 

And the alternative, remaining willfully ignorant of the language and culture, is a powerful way to invite exploitation.  That makes the Gringo an asshole too but if they volunteer for that shit?

It is completely a double standard.  (sorry, but it just is.)  I try to accommodate our local taco shop by ordering and paying en Espanol.  They know my 'lo mismo' as soon as I walk in the door now.  And it is just courteous to try to accommodate guests, but not required.  It is however incumbent on the visitors to be polite guests.  Otherwise, we have every right to ask them to leave. 

Do you grok my position now?

LaineyAZ

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2024, 06:23:16 AM »
I think people are ignoring the economic ripple effect of immigration.
Yes, there are services needed to be provided.  But on the flip side, they stimulate the economy with their wages.

There's a YouTube video of a blonde woman chastising the Springfield, Ohio city council on the Haitian immigrant hysteria.
She pointed out that many of those immigrants worked in a local meat processing plant (again, a job almost no one wants).  With those wages, they bought run-down houses and started renovating them.  They've opened small restaurants and other businesses.  More money was flowing into the metro area coffers.

Now, post-election, some have already started to leave.  Whether it will be a wholesale emigration remains to be seen.
Why isn't this side of the story told?

RetiredAt63

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2024, 07:08:52 AM »
I think people are ignoring the economic ripple effect of immigration.
Yes, there are services needed to be provided.  But on the flip side, they stimulate the economy with their wages.

There's a YouTube video of a blonde woman chastising the Springfield, Ohio city council on the Haitian immigrant hysteria.
She pointed out that many of those immigrants worked in a local meat processing plant (again, a job almost no one wants).  With those wages, they bought run-down houses and started renovating them.  They've opened small restaurants and other businesses.  More money was flowing into the metro area coffers.

Now, post-election, some have already started to leave.  Whether it will be a wholesale emigration remains to be seen.
Why isn't this side of the story told?

I saw that way back when.  The information is there.  But people can't be forced to pay attention to it.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2024, 02:12:19 AM »
Financial.Velociraptor - Wow, that's a very difficult quandary.  If I can change to a slightly different example, in Sweden high school girls have to attend all-girl dances.  Muslim immigrants believe that any women out at night is a bad woman, and they see nothing wrong with groping bad women.  In Sweden, groping women in public is a crime, and women just learned to exclude all men.  I worry that Sweden is so terrified of being racist, they would identify problems clearly tied to immigrants.  The most flagrant example was not identifying people who attacked an Israeli Embassy with hand grenades (a preferred weapon of immigrants in Sweden).

Back to the U.S., I think this could be how a city divides on cultural lines.  I've heard, but not experienced, that many Spanish speaking countries are much more laid back, and don't prioritize efficiency.  You want to get done with your shopping, and they treat Walmart as a place to socialize.  I don't think that gets fixed - I think people just move away, or go to other stores.  Employees can't enforce it without hitting the same hostility you observed - I'd call it rude, but maybe others wouldn't.

I'd probably feel the same in your circumstance.  But also, I don't know that the cultural misunderstandings will go away when the guy blocking the isle speaks English.  He knew enough to curse, but still wasn't polite.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2024, 09:36:23 AM »
Financial.Velociraptor - Wow, that's a very difficult quandary.  If I can change to a slightly different example, in Sweden high school girls have to attend all-girl dances.  Muslim immigrants believe that any women out at night is a bad woman, and they see nothing wrong with groping bad women.  In Sweden, groping women in public is a crime, and women just learned to exclude all men.  I worry that Sweden is so terrified of being racist, they would identify problems clearly tied to immigrants.  The most flagrant example was not identifying people who attacked an Israeli Embassy with hand grenades (a preferred weapon of immigrants in Sweden).

Back to the U.S., I think this could be how a city divides on cultural lines.  I've heard, but not experienced, that many Spanish speaking countries are much more laid back, and don't prioritize efficiency.  You want to get done with your shopping, and they treat Walmart as a place to socialize.  I don't think that gets fixed - I think people just move away, or go to other stores.  Employees can't enforce it without hitting the same hostility you observed - I'd call it rude, but maybe others wouldn't.

I'd probably feel the same in your circumstance.  But also, I don't know that the cultural misunderstandings will go away when the guy blocking the isle speaks English.  He knew enough to curse, but still wasn't polite.

You make more good points.  Thanks for engaging thoughtfully and respectfully on a sensitive subject.  I suppose you are right that immigrants have not just a right but a moral duty to resist oppression and injustice.

My thing is, at least in Houston, most people want to welcome immigrants. Most of them enrich our life experience. But there is a problem that Trump/Maga exploits very well.  Some of these immigrants are real shit heads.  I suspect the Eastern European and Asian immigrants in the 19th century were quick to learn the language and customs as returning to their home country was a major financial burden.  Today, I think a portion of our immigrants from South of the border see themselves more as tourists than Newly American.  They have no intent to integrate and some even have intent to actively exploit us when we invite them in and to exploit our community systems.   Of course, this plays into the hands of those want to have mass deportations and build walls. 

scottish

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2024, 01:30:13 PM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

I think America's current policy for permeant immigration falls under the "good enough" heading. The person who wants to immigrate applies for a green-card, gets investigated, and (presumably) gets lawful permanent resident status. They can either remain under LPR status, or they can apply for citizenship after 5 years of residence with good conduct. I'm sure there are Byzantium rules and stupidities that could be cleaned up, but overarchingly America uses LPR to reunite families. After that, America uses LPR to attract workers, grant asylum, and some small kerfluffum.

My stance on changing policy for temporary immigration would be to de-couple it from the employer holding the visa. Allowing employers to hold power over the visa creates horrific routes for abuse. 

My stance on illegal immigration is: if too many people try to get into the lifeboat, it will sink and everyone will die. There have to be limits at the border.* The problem is that defining and enforcing those limits is hard, draining, emotionally deadening work. Some people fix their internal moral quandary by deciding all migrants are less human than themselves. Others solve their internal discomfort by saying we should let everyone it. Neither of those stances really work, though. American needs immigration, and we need immigration control. We could make the work easier by increasing the number of asylum visas and green-cards we allow. That's the path I'd like to see.

ETA: I think @Financial.Velociraptor 's aim of 5 million green-cards per year is a good number.

*I admit that my "We must have some sort of border control" is predicated on the idea that America is anathema to the idea of true shanty towns, or people living in landfills, or people dying on the street in droves. If we're willing to allow those, then we don't actually have to have limits at the border.

Up here in Canada we have about 1% of the population is immigrating every year.    There's alot of strain on housing and health care, although health care has been strained for quite a while now.    Tent encampments in urban areas are starting to become common - which is really something to experience in a Canadian winter.

It seems to me we shouldn't be admitting people into the country unless they have a fair chance of finding somewhere to live and being able to access health care and so on.     Do you folks in the US have similar problems?



GuitarStv

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2024, 03:34:45 PM »
Up here in Canada we have about 1% of the population is immigrating every year.    There's alot of strain on housing and health care, although health care has been strained for quite a while now.    Tent encampments in urban areas are starting to become common - which is really something to experience in a Canadian winter.

It seems to me we shouldn't be admitting people into the country unless they have a fair chance of finding somewhere to live and being able to access health care and so on.     Do you folks in the US have similar problems?

Tent encampments are common, and they're made up of homeless people.  It's certainly possible that there are a few immigrants in them (2% of refugees/refugee claimants according to stats-can are homeless - https://housing-infrastructure.canada.ca/homelessness-sans-abri/reports-rapports/data-shelter-2022-donnees-refuge-eng.html), but the overwhelming majority of our homeless (90%) are Canadian citizens.  Drugs, abuse, mental health issues, disabilities - these seem to still be the primary causes of homelessness in Canada.  Do you have other data that says that our homeless are mostly immigrants?

As you mention, health care has been strained for a long time now due to chronic underfunding.  Immigrants are actually holding our system together though, not breaking it.  Immigrants make up the backbone of our health care workers, and health care would be truly fucked without immigration.  Immigrants as health care workers make up:
25% of registered nurses
42% of nurse aides and related occupations
43% of pharmacists
37% of physicians
45% of dentists
61% of dental technologists and related occupations
 - https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/campaigns/immigration-matters/growing-canada-future/health.html

Would sure suck for us non-immigrants if we cut off that precious resource.

Rob_bob

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2024, 04:35:07 PM »
Up here in Canada we have about 1% of the population is immigrating every year.    There's alot of strain on housing and health care, although health care has been strained for quite a while now.    Tent encampments in urban areas are starting to become common - which is really something to experience in a Canadian winter.

It seems to me we shouldn't be admitting people into the country unless they have a fair chance of finding somewhere to live and being able to access health care and so on.     Do you folks in the US have similar problems?

Tent encampments are common, and they're made up of homeless people.  It's certainly possible that there are a few immigrants in them (2% of refugees/refugee claimants according to stats-can are homeless - https://housing-infrastructure.canada.ca/homelessness-sans-abri/reports-rapports/data-shelter-2022-donnees-refuge-eng.html), but the overwhelming majority of our homeless (90%) are Canadian citizens.  Drugs, abuse, mental health issues, disabilities - these seem to still be the primary causes of homelessness in Canada.  Do you have other data that says that our homeless are mostly immigrants?

As you mention, health care has been strained for a long time now due to chronic underfunding.  Immigrants are actually holding our system together though, not breaking it.  Immigrants make up the backbone of our health care workers, and health care would be truly fucked without immigration.  Immigrants as health care workers make up:
25% of registered nurses
42% of nurse aides and related occupations
43% of pharmacists
37% of physicians
45% of dentists
61% of dental technologists and related occupations
 - https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/campaigns/immigration-matters/growing-canada-future/health.html

Would sure suck for us non-immigrants if we cut off that precious resource.

Did those immigrants enter legally?  The U.S. allows for up to 650,000 permanent immigrant visas each year.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2024, 04:38:07 PM by Rob_bob »

RetiredAt63

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2024, 07:26:37 PM »
Up here in Canada we have about 1% of the population is immigrating every year.    There's alot of strain on housing and health care, although health care has been strained for quite a while now.    Tent encampments in urban areas are starting to become common - which is really something to experience in a Canadian winter.

It seems to me we shouldn't be admitting people into the country unless they have a fair chance of finding somewhere to live and being able to access health care and so on.     Do you folks in the US have similar problems?

Tent encampments are common, and they're made up of homeless people.  It's certainly possible that there are a few immigrants in them (2% of refugees/refugee claimants according to stats-can are homeless - https://housing-infrastructure.canada.ca/homelessness-sans-abri/reports-rapports/data-shelter-2022-donnees-refuge-eng.html), but the overwhelming majority of our homeless (90%) are Canadian citizens.  Drugs, abuse, mental health issues, disabilities - these seem to still be the primary causes of homelessness in Canada.  Do you have other data that says that our homeless are mostly immigrants?

As you mention, health care has been strained for a long time now due to chronic underfunding.  Immigrants are actually holding our system together though, not breaking it.  Immigrants make up the backbone of our health care workers, and health care would be truly fucked without immigration.  Immigrants as health care workers make up:
25% of registered nurses
42% of nurse aides and related occupations
43% of pharmacists
37% of physicians
45% of dentists
61% of dental technologists and related occupations
 - https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/campaigns/immigration-matters/growing-canada-future/health.html

Would sure suck for us non-immigrants if we cut off that precious resource.

Did those immigrants enter legally?  The U.S. allows for up to 650,000 permanent immigrant visas each year.

Definitely.  We have a points systems and people in the heath professions would have lots of points for their profession.  Between boomers retiring and all the burnout from Covid, anyone in the health field is welcome if they are from countries whose training and practice are similar to ours.  Plus our present birth rate is 1.3, well below replacement.

By the way, we laugh when Americans declare they are moving to Canada if they are not happy with the latest election results.  I know a couple with impressive credentials and it took them 2 years. 

We accept a lot of immigrants but we are definitely not an open border.  Just as an example, many years ago a Montreal Community College did a survey and they had students from over 40 different ethnic backgrounds.

Anyway, if you want the details, they are all here.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/annual-report-parliament-immigration-2024.html

iris lily

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2024, 01:47:35 PM »
I gave this thread a quick glance and am curious what people here think U.S. immigration policies should be?  How open or restrictive should the boarders be?  Should U.S. immigration be more or less restrictive than that of Canada by comparison?

Largely "open".  I wouldn't want true 100% open borders for narcos and sexual predators, but for anyone who is healthy and has no felony record (misdemeanors or local equivalent fine), I'd like to target about 5 million persons granted Permanent Resident Status per year and a streamlined path to full Citizenship.  (See the inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty for reference.)  If they bring novel culinary and music traditions with them, maybe make it 6 million.  There should be a non trivial processing fee for their Naturalization paperwork, as well.

But also make English the official language.  Learn it or go home.  If we embrace you; you embrace us back, for fuck's sake!

America's strength has, through its history, been through immigration.  Anti-immigrant people are, largely, hypocritical, because they are almost certainly descendants of immigrants themselves.  And, their ancestors were not subject to quotas, skills testing, etc.

That's the history, and it's part of it.  When did we get so uppity?


The future is also part of it.  A big part of it.  Unemployment is below "full employment" levels.  But, even more, we are on a demographic decline that is common to most developed nations.  One way to add more workers per retiree?  Immigration.  Japan has some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world.  And guess what?  It has some of the worst demographics, too.  If we want to see what happens to a country with declining population, watch them.  At least that way, we'll have a warning.

Yes, we should secure our borders and have background checks.  But, if we overtly opened immigration, funding the determining system to work in some scale less than many years, we wouldn't have millions in a limbo situation that nobody wants.

I do think we need to recognize the different role border states play in this, vs. the nation as a whole.  National support should go beyond the border patrol, to other services immigrants need, like education and Healthcare.

Very tiresome it is as someone who would like to see far less illegal immigration to be painted as “anti-immigrant.”

It really gets old, this broad brush painting. You think I don’t know I am here due to immigrants? I would like to see an adequte number of immigrants, processed officially (whatever that means) and tracked, here to take the jobs that are not being taken.

The percentage  of immigrants in our country has remained stable over decades, even when compared to last centuries. What I don’t know is the percentage of people here illegally—has thant changed? Much worse now than 50 years ago? 100 years ago? netter? Much better?

The number of people staying here illegally is it known and is only estimated. Who knows how accurate those estimates are since they seem to vary, depending on who’s doing the estimating.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2024, 01:50:23 PM by iris lily »

scottish

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2024, 05:15:47 PM »
Up here in Canada we have about 1% of the population is immigrating every year.    There's alot of strain on housing and health care, although health care has been strained for quite a while now.    Tent encampments in urban areas are starting to become common - which is really something to experience in a Canadian winter.

It seems to me we shouldn't be admitting people into the country unless they have a fair chance of finding somewhere to live and being able to access health care and so on.     Do you folks in the US have similar problems?

Tent encampments are common, and they're made up of homeless people.  It's certainly possible that there are a few immigrants in them (2% of refugees/refugee claimants according to stats-can are homeless - https://housing-infrastructure.canada.ca/homelessness-sans-abri/reports-rapports/data-shelter-2022-donnees-refuge-eng.html), but the overwhelming majority of our homeless (90%) are Canadian citizens.  Drugs, abuse, mental health issues, disabilities - these seem to still be the primary causes of homelessness in Canada.  Do you have other data that says that our homeless are mostly immigrants?

As you mention, health care has been strained for a long time now due to chronic underfunding.  Immigrants are actually holding our system together though, not breaking it.  Immigrants make up the backbone of our health care workers, and health care would be truly fucked without immigration.  Immigrants as health care workers make up:
25% of registered nurses
42% of nurse aides and related occupations
43% of pharmacists
37% of physicians
45% of dentists
61% of dental technologists and related occupations
 - https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/campaigns/immigration-matters/growing-canada-future/health.html

Would sure suck for us non-immigrants if we cut off that precious resource.

Yeah, it'll be pretty bad news if many of those 2.4M people scheduled to leave Canada are working in health care.

reeshau

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Re: If during "47", some uniformed official knocks on your door -
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2024, 07:53:59 PM »
The percentage  of immigrants in our country has remained stable over decades, even when compared to last centuries. What I don’t know is the percentage of people here illegally—has thant changed? Much worse now than 50 years ago? 100 years ago? netter? Much better?

Not sure where you are getting this idea.  Immigration began being restricted through several actions early in the 20th century, until ~1970.  The US did not relax immmigrant restrictions in 1970; illegal immigration has increased in the meantime.


https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/27/key-findings-about-us-immigrants/