Author Topic: US national debt discussion  (Read 2782 times)

bmjohnson35

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US national debt discussion
« on: June 10, 2025, 07:23:42 PM »
It feels as if our elected officials are unwilling or incapable of genuinely addressing our ballooning national debt.  Before I start, let me state that I do not agree with supply side economics, trickle-down economics or any other theory where reducing taxes will indirectly reduce our national debt.  As far as I'm concerned, the national government is no different than you and me, if your expenses exceed your income, you cannot reduce your debt. 

With the above assumptions in mind:

1. Assuming the government continues as is, how long do you believe the US has before the national debt causes us to loose the global reserve currency status, experience a debt default and/or general currency failure?

2. If one of the situations in question one occurs, what do you think the corrective action(s) will be?

3. Assuming the government does not wait until one of the scenarios in question 1 occurs, what actions do you think the government will take to start reducing the national debt?

4. How do you think the general public would receive a budget that eliminated most of the existing tax cuts, eliminated or limited existing tax loopholes, increased taxes on the highest income bracket(s), taxed all capital gains (adjusted for inflation) at ordinary rates, doubled the Social Security taxable maximum earnings threshold, didn't add any additional tax cuts/credits, and reduced spending to some degree in all spending categories as well?

5. Assuming the actions of question 4 are way too extreme or disruptive to the economy, what changes do YOU think could effectively start reducing our national debt and be generally acceptable to the public?


P.S. Please don't turn this into an anti-Trump, Trump vs. Harris or democrats vs. republicans discussion.

waltworks

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2025, 09:28:40 PM »
Broadly speaking, we would need to spend less money on old people while simultaneously raising taxes a fair amount, if we wanted to balance the budget. If we wanted to be smart about it we'd also spend *more* money on kids (health, education) since there are actual proven economic benefits to that.

If we just want to keep the debt at a steady % of GDP we still need to do that but not maybe as abruptly or cut spend/raise tax as steeply.

I mean, it's not complex, really. But old people vote and people like their bennies and hate paying taxes, so they vote for charlatans of all political stripes that tell them no painful or hard choices are needed.

Japan's debt is ~200% of GPD and they're still muddling along. Rather than a generalized collapse, I'd predict gov't bond sales sucking the air out of the larger economy (displacing productive investments) and general stagnation (demographics is going to cause this as well) accompanied by more can-kicking for quite a while. 

-W

Ron Scott

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2025, 04:49:08 AM »
I think we have a shot at tampering the ill affects a good bit by growing and inflating our way out of it. I don’t see changing tax policy or reducing entitlements as politically viable. We shall see.

bmjohnson35

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2025, 07:03:53 AM »
I think we have a shot at tampering the ill affects a good bit by growing and inflating our way out of it. I don’t see changing tax policy or reducing entitlements as politically viable. We shall see.

According to a quick google search, Japan went from 120% around 2000 to 250% presently. That's a 25 year period.  Of course, the US & Japan aren't necessarily apples for apples. but it's a real world reference.  I just don't see how it can continue indefinitely.

I agree that making the hard changes is probably not politically viable. With the aforementioned changing demographics and interest payments increasing over time, how are we going to grow and inflate our way out of it?  Improved efficiency through AI spawned technology improvements?

mtnrider

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2025, 09:08:46 AM »
I think we have a shot at tampering the ill affects a good bit by growing and inflating our way out of it. I don’t see changing tax policy or reducing entitlements as politically viable. We shall see.

According to a quick google search, Japan went from 120% around 2000 to 250% presently. That's a 25 year period.  Of course, the US & Japan aren't necessarily apples for apples. but it's a real world reference.  I just don't see how it can continue indefinitely.

I agree that making the hard changes is probably not politically viable. With the aforementioned changing demographics and interest payments increasing over time, how are we going to grow and inflate our way out of it?  Improved efficiency through AI spawned technology improvements?

Some ideas:
  • government does less, and so spends less
  • government taxes more
  • improve government spending efficiency (eg tackle medicaid upcoding and the pentagon failing audits
  • inflate the dollar (essentially a tax on the people owning it)
  • keep the US dollar a reserve currency so it can continue to borrow cheaply
  • the government spends on basic research and infrastructure (for long term productivity)
  • increase private sector efficiency (for short term productivity)

Many of these are in tension with each other.  It's hard to write about the tensions without straying into politics.  The big levers for immediate changes are increasing taxes and decreasing spending.

Maybe AI could help some, but I wouldn't count on it being revolutionary, or happening quickly.


rocketpj

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2025, 10:10:49 AM »
The first point is that a government is nothing at all like a household, in that it can print money.  The debt is essentially a ledger of how much money the government has printed, and taxation is the counterbalance where the federal government removes previously printed money from the system.

It does not at all work like the rest of us, where we need to balance income with outgoing expenses.  If the US or any other sovereign government matched income with expenses there would be no money in circulation.  That $20 bill in your pocket started out as a government expense, paid to someone for something.

That is somewhat of a superpower, but needs to be used in moderation or inflation will, eventually, get out of control.  There are ways to 'outgrow' inflation, the historical methods being through increased productivity and increasing population through more children and immigration.  One of the big reasons Japan is 'stagnant' is their flat/declining population levels, which mean that while economic growth is stagnant there is still an improving standard of living (same $ with less people).

People are having fewer children, and immigration is apparently off the table right now despite its long proven positive effect on national economies.  So the US government will continue printing shocking amounts of money to do what it likes.  At some point the value and utility of that money will collapse, thereby devaluing the 'real' value of the debt.  Current federal policy seems designed to remove the US dollar's value as a reserve currency as quickly as possible, as well as cause the rest of the world to unload the T-Bills they do own in a steady but urgent manner. 

I significantly reduced my US holdings a few months ago.  That may turn out to be a mistake, but so far I am feeling good about it.  Of course I say this from the outside looking in, and I don't live in US dollars.

ChpBstrd

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2025, 01:31:40 PM »
1. Assuming the government continues as is, how long do you believe the US has before the national debt causes us to loose the global reserve currency status, experience a debt default and/or general currency failure?
An economist quoted in a recent Wall Street Journal video said if the debt exceeds roughly 175% of GDP, then we're likely to be in a spiral where we "couldn't possibly raise taxes enough at that point to meet the interest payments". However, as noted in the video, it's really a matter of investor confidence. I.e. if bondholders foresee the U.S. reaching such a threshold, why should they not exit their treasurys and the US dollar before the crisis rather than after the crisis occurs? There's a musical chairs element at play here, where you don't want to be last, and where you're watching the behavior of other investors so that you don't wake up one day and see your account down 30%.

Overall, I think this 175% estimate is too high. Venezuela has a debt/GDP of "only" 146% and it's a basket case. Argentina is suffering severe deprivations under a 155% ratio, and perpetual hyperinflation boogeyman Zimbabwe is sitting at a mere 93%. Greece ran into a bond market revolt in 2009 at about 130% and quickly spiraled above 200% by 2021. The deprivations of austerity and high taxation mean they are now no longer considered to be a developed nation. Japan, with its 255% ratio might be an outlier because of how the government owns shares in the big banks that own government bonds, essentially directing a circular system of money printing and stagnation of the currency. The UK, currently at a 98% debt/GDP ratio, endured a bond market collapse just a few years ago when the markets lost confidence in short-lived prime minister Liz Truss.

So a crisis can strike anywhere, at any time, and at any level of debt/GDP above perhaps 90%.
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2. If one of the situations in question one occurs, what do you think the corrective action(s) will be?
If bond prices collapse and yields get too high, expect the feds to step in with bond buying. Note that this injects currency into the economy and is thus inflationary. It's worked in the past, but there's a chance it won't work at these debt/GDP levels because buyers other than the government could become spooked by the money-printing. This could cause them to demand higher real yields to compensate for the risk of international dollar devaluation.

If the international value of the US dollar collapses, or inflation gets too high, expect the feds to hike interest rates. However this will only suppress GDP growth, potentially causing a recession, and even higher interest costs to the government, which will necessitate even more borrowing. Like the Quantitative Easing described above, this has worked in the past but might not work in the future if buyers other than the government become spooked by the effect higher interest rates are having on the US budget. At that point, the government is borrowing at successively higher and higher rates to cover its earlier debts.

In either case, a debt spiral could be set off that could quickly take the US's debt/GDP ratio from 125% to above 175% within just a few years. It happened in Greece.

Also in either case, expect American politicians to point the finger at someone. We seem to love that sort of performance here.
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3. Assuming the government does not wait until one of the scenarios in question 1 occurs, what actions do you think the government will take to start reducing the national debt?
For five decades, voters have punished American politicians who promoted anything like fiscal restraint or a plausible path to controlling the national debt. We could neither raise taxes nor cut spending. So the consensus across both parties is that the US has to grow its GDP so quickly that the denominator outruns the numerator in the debt/GDP ratio. The U.S's current political recklessness looks a lot like the way Greek politicians handed out spending increases and tax cuts right up until their crisis hit. So the point is, the concept of something being done before the debt becomes a crisis is very, very low. Voters are ultimately to blame.

So I might expect another helicopter money stimulus program, paid to appease voters right before an election. This would be intended to stimulate the economy enough to avoid a bond market revolt around the election. This might be packaged as a retrogressive tax cut and a refund.

That said, in this era of social media propaganda, I think it is completely politically possible that Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security could be chopped in half. The same population that can be manipulated by paid influencers into believing horse dewormer cures both COVID and cancer could also be manipulated into believing they'd actually be wealthier and more secure without these programs. Whoever controls the media controls the public's beliefs, and right now Republicans and right-leaning CEOs control the big tech information sources.

The particular possibility is cutting social programs AFTER some number of years in the future when a critical mass of baby boomer voters don't expect to be alive any more. It would be a classic boomer move for them to vote for that so that their bonds recover.
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4. How do you think the general public would receive a budget that eliminated most of the existing tax cuts, eliminated or limited existing tax loopholes, increased taxes on the highest income bracket(s), taxed all capital gains (adjusted for inflation) at ordinary rates, doubled the Social Security taxable maximum earnings threshold, didn't add any additional tax cuts/credits, and reduced spending to some
degree in all spending categories as well?
If the Greeks and Turks are any guide, there would be riots in the streets. In Greece and Argentina, debt crises upended the existing political order and brought new parties into the system, but these were parliamentary systems, not US style duopolies.

In the U.S. movements occur within the two parties (or at least used to, in the case of Democrats). I think you'd see an anti-austerity movement from the Dems and a hard-money, tax-the-poor movement from the Reps.
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5. Assuming the actions of question 4 are way too extreme or disruptive to the economy, what changes do YOU think could effectively start reducing our national debt and be generally acceptable to the public?
If the U.S. could go 20 years without fighting a war, that would dramatically help. This actually has a decent chance of happening, as the humiliation in Kabul looked a lot like the humiliation in Saigon, which led to almost 15 years of peace. That said, China invades Taiwan in either mid 2026 or mid 2027. I predict the Trump administration will refuse to fight China, and that may be for the best from a US-centric perspective, even though it will be a humanitarian disaster.

Other than that, I could imagine politicians passing a bill that imposes fiscal discipline far into the future. For example, a law could mandate an increasingly more balanced budget starting 5 years from now. Such a law would greatly increase the confidence of bond markets, while letting today's politicians off the hook. In fact, today's politicians could take credit for "doing something" even if they repeal the law due to circumstances in five years.

roomtempmayo

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2025, 01:57:48 PM »
The US is in no danger of being unable to raise the money to pay its bills within the foreseeable future.

Countries default because they can't functionally raise the taxes necessary due to the threat of capital flight, or transmit that money to creditors due to corruption.

The US isn't in either of those situations.  It's so far and away the best place to invest capital and do business right now that there's no realistic tax hike that would create capital flight.  And IRS agents aren't pocketing tax dollars in any significant way.  The simple reality is that we'll pay our debts because people and companies will still pay taxes even if they go up significantly because both the EU and China are differently hostile to private investment.

The debt is an issue.  You're right that we need to deal with it, but I doubt we will until there's a crisis.  I think that crisis is at least a decade or two away, though.

bmjohnson35

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2025, 03:45:32 PM »

I read and hear from people again and again that the US will be fine for a long time. I remember reading an article 7-10 years ago that somewhere around 32 trillion was going to be the breaking point. Here we are fast approaching 37 trillion, our projected interest payments now exceed our military spending and we are still marching along.

Since our government representatives aren't tackling it, we have an aging population and birth rates are decreasing, I can't help but wonder how much longer we have before something breaks.

mtnrider wrote: "It's hard to write about the tensions without straying into politics."   - Yes it is and thanks to everyone for avoiding that rabbit hole.


RetiredAt63

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2025, 05:43:41 PM »
What happens when foreign governments dump treasury bonds?  That is government money that has to be paid out to redeem the bond.

waltworks

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2025, 08:33:50 PM »
Foreign governments need something to *buy* if they sell t-bills, though. They're stuck too, in a way.

-W

Ron Scott

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2025, 09:53:37 PM »
  As far as I'm concerned, the national government is no different than you and me, if your expenses exceed your income, you cannot reduce your debt. 
Keep in mind however that there is a massive difference between your finances (or a corporation’s or a state/local government) and the feds. The federal government can create money.

Whenever the feds spend they debit their account at the treasury and credit their account in a commercial bank which creates money. To ensure there isn’t too much money in the system that will chase limited goods and cause inflation, they take money out of circulation through taxes and bond issuance. The US has “inflated its way out of debt” in the past and that’s an (ugly) option. Or we can get out of it through significant productivity gains. They don’t have to balance a budget like we do.

Still tricky tho!

RetiredAt63

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2025, 03:55:56 AM »
Foreign governments need something to *buy* if they sell t-bills, though. They're stuck too, in a way.

-W

Please explain this. I don't get the stuck part.  They can spend the money at home or buy goods/services from any other country.  Or buy other countries' treasury bill equivalents.  How is that "stuck"?

reeshau

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2025, 06:43:44 AM »
Foreign governments need something to *buy* if they sell t-bills, though. They're stuck too, in a way.

-W

Please explain this. I don't get the stuck part.  They can spend the money at home or buy goods/services from any other country.  Or buy other countries' treasury bill equivalents.  How is that "stuck"?

First point: they are us.  2/3 of this debt is held in the US. (See below)

As for foreign entities, there are two issues.  The first is trustworthiness.  China would love to become a global reserve currency.  Will Europe buy RMB?  Second is size.  Switzerland accidentally invented negative interest rates, as so much money flowed there early in the pandemic that their market was swamped, driving secondary rates down.

Neither are impossible to overcome,  but they take an amount t of intention on the issuer to fill that role, not just the buyers.  The Swiss example shows what can happen otherwise; kind of a reverse run.

Ron Scott

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2025, 07:34:13 AM »
My fingers are crossed that AI will jump productivity enough to give us real relief.

ChpBstrd

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2025, 07:41:51 AM »
My fingers are crossed that AI will jump productivity enough to give us real relief.
Even if AI driven productivity gains do take off, as I think they will...
  • Corporate earnings or investors' capital gains will not be taxed sufficiently to reduce the national debt.
  • If the AI revolution leads to job losses and structurally higher unemployment or lower wages, payroll taxes and aggregate demand / GDP could decline.
  • It seems unlikely that AI services exports from the US will resolve the trade deficit, because the technology is evolving globally and can be set up anywhere with cheap electricity.

RetiredAt63

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2025, 08:30:49 AM »
Foreign governments need something to *buy* if they sell t-bills, though. They're stuck too, in a way.

-W

Please explain this. I don't get the stuck part.  They can spend the money at home or buy goods/services from any other country.  Or buy other countries' treasury bill equivalents.  How is that "stuck"?

First point: they are us.  2/3 of this debt is held in the US. (See below)

As for foreign entities, there are two issues.  The first is trustworthiness.  China would love to become a global reserve currency.  Will Europe buy RMB?  Second is size.  Switzerland accidentally invented negative interest rates, as so much money flowed there early in the pandemic that their market was swamped, driving secondary rates down.

Neither are impossible to overcome,  but they take an amount t of intention on the issuer to fill that role, not just the buyers.  The Swiss example shows what can happen otherwise; kind of a reverse run.


I was asking about the 1/3 that is not domestic.  And not really about the countries cashing in, but the effect on the US economy and federal budget if that 1/3 started being redeemed.  Especially if big chunks of it were being redeemed by a whole bunch of those countries.  I was wondering if it would be like the runs on the banks at the start of the Great Depression.

I would guess redemption by domestic holders would have less effect since that money would mostly stay in the country.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2025, 08:48:39 AM »
After high tariffs were placed on China and Japan, who hold large reserves of U.S. Treasuries ... "someone" dumped a lot of treasuries to send a message.  That message was received quickly, and tariff relief followed.  I searched, and apparently mortgage rates are tied to the 10 year treasury yield.  Massive selling of treasuries was causing yields to rise 0.5% in one day, which was pushing mortgage rates up 0.5% in one day.  That ability to inflict harm by selling treasuries still exists - it's the flip side of being the world's reserve currency.

Ray Dalio seems to think problems with U.S. debt service will occur within the next few years.  If the U.S. plans to print money excessively in the future - because of too much debt - investors will avoid treasuries.  They'll realize the rate they're getting ignores the devaluation of the dollar.  They could "earn" 5%, then the dollar could fall more than 5%, and they lose money.  If that fear picks up, the marginal investor will stay away... and will need to be enticed with higher yields.  The question isn't if Americans will still buy 2/3rds of treasuries, but if the rest of the world will keep buying the remaining 1/3rd at the same rate.

I'm in favor of cutting everything, and let Congress / others sort out how much is too much.  Across the board cuts would be best - everything gets cut, including defense and social security.  But most likely, people simply can't accept that things will get worse, and they'll want to keep everything the way it is now.  Politicians who do nothing aren't penalized, while those who cut social security will be gone at the next election.

I think cuts to the IRS were foolish.  The IRS claims every dollar spent on compliance (finding tax cheats) earns many dollars of tax revenue.  Ideally, an independent organization would measure that.  But I think their claim is basically true - cut every expense, but not the IRS, since they generate the revenue.

ChpBstrd

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2025, 09:08:01 AM »
Foreign governments need something to *buy* if they sell t-bills, though. They're stuck too, in a way.
Please explain this. I don't get the stuck part.  They can spend the money at home or buy goods/services from any other country.  Or buy other countries' treasury bill equivalents.  How is that "stuck"?
First point: they are us.  2/3 of this debt is held in the US. (See below)

As for foreign entities, there are two issues.  The first is trustworthiness.  China would love to become a global reserve currency.  Will Europe buy RMB?  Second is size.  Switzerland accidentally invented negative interest rates, as so much money flowed there early in the pandemic that their market was swamped, driving secondary rates down.

Neither are impossible to overcome,  but they take an amount t of intention on the issuer to fill that role, not just the buyers.  The Swiss example shows what can happen otherwise; kind of a reverse run.
I was asking about the 1/3 that is not domestic.  And not really about the countries cashing in, but the effect on the US economy and federal budget if that 1/3 started being redeemed.  Especially if big chunks of it were being redeemed by a whole bunch of those countries.  I was wondering if it would be like the runs on the banks at the start of the Great Depression.

I would guess redemption by domestic holders would have less effect since that money would mostly stay in the country.
Why would a domestic investor operate on different logic than a foreign investor, when all have access to the same data? I.e. what circumstances would lead one type of investor to buy treasuries at a given interest rate, while the other type makes a sell decision, based on the same information?

Similarly, if the US started printing money to pay interest while cutting taxes, and was clearly on a path to inflating their way out of an upcoming debt crisis, then do we expect domestic institutions to hold dollars and treasuries out of... patriotism?

jrhampt

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2025, 09:25:56 AM »
I don't think we should cut social security when so many elderly people depend on it as their sole source of income.  Do we really want old people dying in the streets? 

bmjohnson35

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2025, 09:36:36 AM »
After high tariffs were placed on China and Japan, who hold large reserves of U.S. Treasuries ... "someone" dumped a lot of treasuries to send a message.  That message was received quickly, and tariff relief followed.  I searched, and apparently mortgage rates are tied to the 10 year treasury yield.  Massive selling of treasuries was causing yields to rise 0.5% in one day, which was pushing mortgage rates up 0.5% in one day.  That ability to inflict harm by selling treasuries still exists - it's the flip side of being the world's reserve currency.

Ray Dalio seems to think problems with U.S. debt service will occur within the next few years.  If the U.S. plans to print money excessively in the future - because of too much debt - investors will avoid treasuries.  They'll realize the rate they're getting ignores the devaluation of the dollar.  They could "earn" 5%, then the dollar could fall more than 5%, and they lose money.  If that fear picks up, the marginal investor will stay away... and will need to be enticed with higher yields.  The question isn't if Americans will still buy 2/3rds of treasuries, but if the rest of the world will keep buying the remaining 1/3rd at the same rate.

I'm in favor of cutting everything, and let Congress / others sort out how much is too much.  Across the board cuts would be best - everything gets cut, including defense and social security.  But most likely, people simply can't accept that things will get worse, and they'll want to keep everything the way it is now.  Politicians who do nothing aren't penalized, while those who cut social security will be gone at the next election.

I think cuts to the IRS were foolish.  The IRS claims every dollar spent on compliance (finding tax cheats) earns many dollars of tax revenue.  Ideally, an independent organization would measure that.  But I think their claim is basically true - cut every expense, but not the IRS, since they generate the revenue.

In some ways, the global economy does have some built in protections, since anyone going too far off the path can and will be affected by the other parties. 

Even some attempt to create a balanced budget and reduce or even slow the growing debt would likely be well received by investors both nationally and internationally.


RetiredAt63

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2025, 10:49:17 AM »
Foreign governments need something to *buy* if they sell t-bills, though. They're stuck too, in a way.
Please explain this. I don't get the stuck part.  They can spend the money at home or buy goods/services from any other country.  Or buy other countries' treasury bill equivalents.  How is that "stuck"?
First point: they are us.  2/3 of this debt is held in the US. (See below)

As for foreign entities, there are two issues.  The first is trustworthiness.  China would love to become a global reserve currency.  Will Europe buy RMB?  Second is size.  Switzerland accidentally invented negative interest rates, as so much money flowed there early in the pandemic that their market was swamped, driving secondary rates down.

Neither are impossible to overcome,  but they take an amount t of intention on the issuer to fill that role, not just the buyers.  The Swiss example shows what can happen otherwise; kind of a reverse run.
I was asking about the 1/3 that is not domestic.  And not really about the countries cashing in, but the effect on the US economy and federal budget if that 1/3 started being redeemed.  Especially if big chunks of it were being redeemed by a whole bunch of those countries.  I was wondering if it would be like the runs on the banks at the start of the Great Depression.

I would guess redemption by domestic holders would have less effect since that money would mostly stay in the country.
Why would a domestic investor operate on different logic than a foreign investor, when all have access to the same data? I.e. what circumstances would lead one type of investor to buy treasuries at a given interest rate, while the other type makes a sell decision, based on the same information?

Similarly, if the US started printing money to pay interest while cutting taxes, and was clearly on a path to inflating their way out of an upcoming debt crisis, then do we expect domestic institutions to hold dollars and treasuries out of... patriotism?

Hmm, maybe because domestic investors are not involved in international politics and trade deals?  And foreign governments holding them are?  Hmm, even foreign individuals might react differently than domestic investors.  Say if they looked at their investments that are holding US Treasury Bonds and think, why is my investment helping a government that is waging a trade war on my country?  The patriotism as a selling motive is more likely to belong to a non-US investor.  Considering the US is waging a trade war on a lot of countries right now, this is reality.



Ron Scott

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2025, 12:37:22 PM »
I don't think we should cut social security when so many elderly people depend on it as their sole source of income.  Do we really want old people dying in the streets?

I look at SS as a form of welfare. People who need it should get it. People who don’t, shouldn’t.

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2025, 12:43:25 PM »
Foreign governments need something to *buy* if they sell t-bills, though. They're stuck too, in a way.
Please explain this. I don't get the stuck part.  They can spend the money at home or buy goods/services from any other country.  Or buy other countries' treasury bill equivalents.  How is that "stuck"?
First point: they are us.  2/3 of this debt is held in the US. (See below)

As for foreign entities, there are two issues.  The first is trustworthiness.  China would love to become a global reserve currency.  Will Europe buy RMB?  Second is size.  Switzerland accidentally invented negative interest rates, as so much money flowed there early in the pandemic that their market was swamped, driving secondary rates down.

Neither are impossible to overcome,  but they take an amount t of intention on the issuer to fill that role, not just the buyers.  The Swiss example shows what can happen otherwise; kind of a reverse run.
I was asking about the 1/3 that is not domestic.  And not really about the countries cashing in, but the effect on the US economy and federal budget if that 1/3 started being redeemed.  Especially if big chunks of it were being redeemed by a whole bunch of those countries.  I was wondering if it would be like the runs on the banks at the start of the Great Depression.

I would guess redemption by domestic holders would have less effect since that money would mostly stay in the country.
Why would a domestic investor operate on different logic than a foreign investor, when all have access to the same data? I.e. what circumstances would lead one type of investor to buy treasuries at a given interest rate, while the other type makes a sell decision, based on the same information?

Similarly, if the US started printing money to pay interest while cutting taxes, and was clearly on a path to inflating their way out of an upcoming debt crisis, then do we expect domestic institutions to hold dollars and treasuries out of... patriotism?
Hmm, maybe because domestic investors are not involved in international politics and trade deals?  And foreign governments holding them are?  Hmm, even foreign individuals might react differently than domestic investors.  Say if they looked at their investments that are holding US Treasury Bonds and think, why is my investment helping a government that is waging a trade war on my country?  The patriotism as a selling motive is more likely to belong to a non-US investor.  Considering the US is waging a trade war on a lot of countries right now, this is reality.
But if I, as a wealthy domestic investor, foresee a situation where the foreign investors are going to sell off their bonds, then I want to sell my bonds before they drive down the price.

Tariffs could affect foreigners' ability to buy treasuries. If their sales to people using US dollars go down, they will simply have fewer US dollars to invest in treasuries. If the supply of US treasuries simultaneously goes up, the domestic investors won't be able to hold the line, and may also reduce their purchases.

RetiredAt63

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2025, 02:52:03 PM »
Foreign governments need something to *buy* if they sell t-bills, though. They're stuck too, in a way.
Please explain this. I don't get the stuck part.  They can spend the money at home or buy goods/services from any other country.  Or buy other countries' treasury bill equivalents.  How is that "stuck"?
First point: they are us.  2/3 of this debt is held in the US. (See below)

As for foreign entities, there are two issues.  The first is trustworthiness.  China would love to become a global reserve currency.  Will Europe buy RMB?  Second is size.  Switzerland accidentally invented negative interest rates, as so much money flowed there early in the pandemic that their market was swamped, driving secondary rates down.

Neither are impossible to overcome,  but they take an amount t of intention on the issuer to fill that role, not just the buyers.  The Swiss example shows what can happen otherwise; kind of a reverse run.
I was asking about the 1/3 that is not domestic.  And not really about the countries cashing in, but the effect on the US economy and federal budget if that 1/3 started being redeemed.  Especially if big chunks of it were being redeemed by a whole bunch of those countries.  I was wondering if it would be like the runs on the banks at the start of the Great Depression.

I would guess redemption by domestic holders would have less effect since that money would mostly stay in the country.
Why would a domestic investor operate on different logic than a foreign investor, when all have access to the same data? I.e. what circumstances would lead one type of investor to buy treasuries at a given interest rate, while the other type makes a sell decision, based on the same information?

Similarly, if the US started printing money to pay interest while cutting taxes, and was clearly on a path to inflating their way out of an upcoming debt crisis, then do we expect domestic institutions to hold dollars and treasuries out of... patriotism?
Hmm, maybe because domestic investors are not involved in international politics and trade deals?  And foreign governments holding them are?  Hmm, even foreign individuals might react differently than domestic investors.  Say if they looked at their investments that are holding US Treasury Bonds and think, why is my investment helping a government that is waging a trade war on my country?  The patriotism as a selling motive is more likely to belong to a non-US investor.  Considering the US is waging a trade war on a lot of countries right now, this is reality.
But if I, as a wealthy domestic investor, foresee a situation where the foreign investors are going to sell off their bonds, then I want to sell my bonds before they drive down the price.

Tariffs could affect foreigners' ability to buy treasuries. If their sales to people using US dollars go down, they will simply have fewer US dollars to invest in treasuries. If the supply of US treasuries simultaneously goes up, the domestic investors won't be able to hold the line, and may also reduce their purchases.

I think you and I are looking at different situations that sound the same but are not.

reeshau

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2025, 02:57:21 PM »
Ray Dalio seems to think problems with U.S. debt service will occur within the next few years. 

He also though that 10 years ago.  And, to some extent, back to the 1980's.

March 2015 – Hedge Funder Dalio Thinks the Fed Can Repeat 1937 All Over Again
January 2016 – The 75-Year Debt Supercycle Is Coming To An End
September 2018 – Ray Dalio Says The Economy Looks Like 1937 And A Downturn Is Coming In About Two Years
January 2019 – Ray Dalio Sees Significant Risk Of A US Recession
October 2022 – Dalio Warns Of Perfect Storm For The Economy (That was also the stock market low.)
September 2023 – Dalio Says The US Is Going To Have A Debt Crisis

Eventually, he may be right.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2025, 02:13:56 AM »
Ray Dalio seems to think problems with U.S. debt service will occur within the next few years. 

He also though that 10 years ago.  And, to some extent, back to the 1980's.

March 2015 – Hedge Funder Dalio Thinks the Fed Can Repeat 1937 All Over Again
January 2016 – The 75-Year Debt Supercycle Is Coming To An End
September 2018 – Ray Dalio Says The Economy Looks Like 1937 And A Downturn Is Coming In About Two Years
January 2019 – Ray Dalio Sees Significant Risk Of A US Recession
October 2022 – Dalio Warns Of Perfect Storm For The Economy (That was also the stock market low.)
September 2023 – Dalio Says The US Is Going To Have A Debt Crisis

Eventually, he may be right.

Thanks for the critical view of Ray Dalio, I hadn't seen that article before.  I found it here:
https://www.investing.com/analysis/ray-dalio-is-predicting-a-financial-crisis-again-200661511

Other articles showing Ray Dalio was predicting a 1937 situation in 2015 and 2017:
https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2015/03/market-returns-during-ray-dalios-1937-scenario/
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/21/ray-dalio-us-most-divided-socially-and-economically-since-1937.html

I suspect "legendary investor who predicted 2008 and now predicts severe recession" has a few other members, like Jeremy Grantham.  Looks like I'll need to get a critic's view whenever I hear their perspective.

ChpBstrd

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2025, 09:27:19 AM »
Dalio does follow a long line of debt scolds going back beyond the warnings of Ross Perot. However, I will point out the following in his defense:
  • Dalio is talking about 10-20 year timeframes for broad macroeconomic changes, not day trading timeframes or any one year's stock returns,
  • It is difficult or impossible to estimate the US debt trajectory, the US GDP trajectory, and thus debt/GDP, several years into the future, much less nail the specific month/year of an inflection event. If Dalio ever got specific enough to be wrong about a particular timeframe, is there anyone with the guts to make predictions who has a better track record?
  • In the 2018, 2019, and 2021 examples listed above, Dalio was correct about trouble on the horizon. If not for massive helicopter money on a scale never tried before, 2020 would have turned into another Great Depression and our debt/GDP would be much worse. I don't hold it against Dalio for not foreseeing how a pandemic could lead to bipartisan consensus to print money and hand it out to the public, causing an economic boom even as hundreds of thousands were dying. People take for granted how lucky we got, economically speaking. They also take for granted that we just pushed the bill into the future.
  • Since September 2023, the US dollar against a basket of foreign currencies has lost 6.1% of its value. Dalio has long predicted a situation where interest rates rise, causing the Fed to print money to pay an ever-growing interest expense on the debt, causing currency devaluation. Per the data, it's coming true. If you disagree, draw a line in the sand demarcating the point where you'll agree devaluation is occurring.
  • The increase in interest payments made by the US government in the past 5 years to the point it exceeds defense, social security, medicare, or medicaid could be seen as a crisis. It would certainly be a personal crisis if interest coverage on credit card debt was your largest expense category, right? Let's remember that Dalio was raising alarms well before this was the case. The US is now in poor condition to respond to any kind of emergency, like a major war, worldwide economic emergency, another pandemic, a solar flare or cyber attack knocking out communications, or the big one hitting California. We seem to be steadily approaching the cascading debt crisis Dalio has been preaching about for many years. The whole point of forecasting is to not to be surprised when the last domino falls and the event happens. Evidence suggests we are one or two dominos away from Dalio's unfortunate vindication.
  • We can agree that an early warning is a higher quality thing than a late warning, right? You'd like to know about the approaching hurricane with 3 days' time to prepare and evacuate, not just half a day, right? But let's think for a minute how that looks in real time. A warning received 10 years before an event will appear to be wrong for each of ten years. It will generate enormous internet commentary about how it's been wrong for year after year. Yet, that warning is of higher quality and potential usefulness than a lower-quality warning that occurs one hour before an event. Thus, the highest-quality correct predictions will always accumulate counter-evidence prior to being right, and the lowest-quality correct predictions will not accumulate counter-evidence or have much time to be rebutted. Therefore, a prediction not happening for a long period of time is not necessarily evidence of its quality being low, or its eventual incorrectness. Yes, being time-bound matters, but again Dalio is talking on scales of decades, not months.

reeshau

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2025, 09:53:13 AM »
Blame Ray, or blame the headline writers.  But, the repeated immmediacy and urgency of the alarm risks him sounding like the boy who cried wolf, which is what many critics consider him.

@ChpBstrd , I fully agree with you comments on wanting early warning.  There are many things on the horizon which are important, but not urgent (in a daily news cycle sense): global warming, governmwnt entitlements (not just US), government debt (not just US).  They could use some adults in the room to address them, but none are showing up.  (Nkt just leaders, but electorates)

roomtempmayo

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2025, 10:18:31 AM »
Blame Ray, or blame the headline writers.  But, the repeated immmediacy and urgency of the alarm risks him sounding like the boy who cried wolf, which is what many critics consider him.

@ChpBstrd , I fully agree with you comments on wanting early warning.  There are many things on the horizon which are important, but not urgent (in a daily news cycle sense): global warming, governmwnt entitlements (not just US), government debt (not just US).  They could use some adults in the room to address them, but none are showing up.  (Nkt just leaders, but electorates)

The specific timing is only really important for someone looking to time their actions to avoid holding the bag when the crisis hits.

For anyone with a shred of public spiritedness, the trajectory matters way more than the timing.  We should fix the debt and fix SS now, not because they're an immediate crisis for us, but because it's wrong to dump a crisis on someone else down the line.  We don't need to know the specific timing to take that sort of action, and it's not crying wolf to say we should take it.

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2025, 06:30:06 AM »
ChpBstrd - I tried reading a sample of "Big Debt Crisis" by Ray Dalio, but I couldn't get through it - too dry.  Which makes it more difficult for me to fully understand his predictions and their time frame.

Remy has been parodying U.S. debt for years, which might be an easier way to digest some of the problems:

Remy: Raise The Debt Ceiling Rap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoS52fVtVQM

Remy: $20 Trillion Reasons (Lady Gaga Million Reasons Parody)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4TKTPv2hqQ

Remy: Raise the Debt Ceiling Rap (Again)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx5mE9XPcWw

ChpBstrd

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2025, 09:13:53 AM »
Blame Ray, or blame the headline writers.  But, the repeated immediacy and urgency of the alarm risks him sounding like the boy who cried wolf, which is what many critics consider him.
That's probably more a commentary on our attention spans than the correctness of the warning. I suspect we might already be beyond the point of no return, considering the years of political, economic, and cultural change that would have to occur for the US not to hit a debt crisis within the next 20 years. This Titanic can't turn on a dime.

ChpBstrd - I tried reading a sample of "Big Debt Crisis" by Ray Dalio, but I couldn't get through it - too dry.  Which makes it more difficult for me to fully understand his predictions and their time frame.

Remy has been parodying U.S. debt for years, which might be an easier way to digest some of the problems:
Speaking of attention span.... lol.
Perhaps both Ray and Remy will be correct in time. I've only read part of The Changing World Order because I ran out of time. I didn't find it dry... my reaction was more that it was slow-burn horror that tickled my interests in macroeconomics and mass psychology. But it's also one of those nonfiction books where the author communicates their gist in the first couple of chapters and buries you in redundant layers of evidence for the next ten chapters.

My initial instinct was to dismiss Dalio as the latest author to exploit simmering interest in the national debt. Ron Paul, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, and lots of other conservative debt scolds have been selling such books for years. Each would go on to do political work that resulted in expansion of the national debt, in contrast to the panic-stricken tone of their books. So far, the best predictor of whether a politician or pundit will support expanding deficits is whether they wrote a book about what a big problem deficits are!

Yet, Dalio might be the first to take a more academic and nonpartisan view. He's not pointing fingers for personal political gain, or to mask a tax cutter's agenda in a cloak of fake fiscal responsibility; instead he's predicting the potential end of the American way of life, as a spiraling debt crisis and falling USD disrupt the world's economic order. He's burned his own resources and put his own reputation on the line to get the word out. He's too old to personally benefit by running for office, and too rich to personally benefit from selling books. So I think there's an element of credibility to Dalio's story, even if I maintain skepticism because I've read lots of doomer nonfiction.

For anyone with a shred of public spiritedness, the trajectory matters way more than the timing.  We should fix the debt and fix SS now, not because they're an immediate crisis for us, but because it's wrong to dump a crisis on someone else down the line.  We don't need to know the specific timing to take that sort of action, and it's not crying wolf to say we should take it.
This comment poignantly illustrates the scale of the cultural change that would be necessary for Americans to start actually caring about the debt, and to elect political leaders who promote the sorts of plausible escape routes Dalio brings up. It's such a stark contrast to how the majority of people seem to think today, with short-termism, an "extract what you can from the government" attitude, and the common boomer refrain of "I'll be dead by then".

I cannot imagine the majority thinking the way @roomtempmayo thinks within the next 10 years. And even then, it might take the political system another 5 years to adapt to the new consensus (e.g. for how many years was the Iraq war unpopular before politicians actually started advocating a pullout?). And even then, the political system might not adapt because powerful donors want to keep shifting their tax burdens onto the national debt, and money wins elections regardless of what the people think. So we're looking at 15-20 years before we start steering the Titanic away from the iceberg?

Given these timeframe realities, Dalio is probably right that the US dollar will suffer a devaluation, that interest rates will jump higher, and that a crisis affecting living standards will be required before people change their attitudes. And all of this is likely to happen at some point between today's 123% debt/GDP ratio and the historical crisis threshold of about 175%, a level which is 15 years out, assuming no more multi-trillion dollar wars or pandemics or interest rate spikes. Note that I said "between" here and that threshold, not "at". Given that nothing will be done in the next 15 years, I predict there will be a debt crisis within about the next 15 years, with the odds increasing each of those years.

Dalio's model makes sense due to its understanding of incentive structures and power structures. This is why empires "go broke" and how they fail to steer themselves in a sustainable direction while there is still time. It never makes immediate sense for the people in control (politicians, voters) to make the sacrifices necessary now to avoid some vague theoretical threat in the future.

roomtempmayo

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2025, 10:12:45 AM »
It's such a stark contrast to how the majority of people seem to think today, with short-termism, an "extract what you can from the government" attitude, and the common boomer refrain of "I'll be dead by then".

I increasingly struggle to shake the feeling that the American electorate has been fundamentally corrupted over the past three decades.

As recently as the '80s, grand bargains over long term issues like Social Security were possible, not because there was an immediate crisis, but because they were the right thing to do for the country.  Today, there's just zero energy to tackle any of those issues.  I'm not convinced it's because of specific political pressures or structural changes, either.  We can't even do the total freebie stuff that would put us on a better future trajectory, like raise the SS benefits age for people younger than 16 who have never paid into the system.  It's not that there's some acute cost to doing it (it only affects people who have no vested stake in the status quo and who can't vote), it's that there's no energy at all to do anything that might be construed as optional.

And then there's the issue of people living in opulent material comfort who affirmatively want to juice the economy with deficit spending on the backs of the future rather than accept some combination of tiny tax increases, lower growth, and/or benefit cuts.  What the hell is wrong with them, you know?  Somewhere along the way we all became little Scrooge McDucks, sitting on mountains of gold, but insatiably wanting more.  The material status quo is so ludicrously over the top we can't even see it anymore, and all people seem able to think about is making it even crazier.  Why?  It wasn't always like this.


Ron Scott

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2025, 10:45:38 AM »
It's such a stark contrast to how the majority of people seem to think today, with short-termism, an "extract what you can from the government" attitude, and the common boomer refrain of "I'll be dead by then".

I increasingly struggle to shake the feeling that the American electorate has been fundamentally corrupted over the past three decades.

As recently as the '80s, grand bargains over long term issues like Social Security were possible, not because there was an immediate crisis, but because they were the right thing to do for the country.  Today, there's just zero energy to tackle any of those issues.  I'm not convinced it's because of specific political pressures or structural changes, either.  We can't even do the total freebie stuff that would put us on a better future trajectory, like raise the SS benefits age for people younger than 16 who have never paid into the system.  It's not that there's some acute cost to doing it (it only affects people who have no vested stake in the status quo and who can't vote), it's that there's no energy at all to do anything that might be construed as optional.

And then there's the issue of people living in opulent material comfort who affirmatively want to juice the economy with deficit spending on the backs of the future rather than accept some combination of tiny tax increases, lower growth, and/or benefit cuts.  What the hell is wrong with them, you know?  Somewhere along the way we all became little Scrooge McDucks, sitting on mountains of gold, but insatiably wanting more.  The material status quo is so ludicrously over the top we can't even see it anymore, and all people seem able to think about is making it even crazier.  Why?  It wasn't always like this.

America is run by the organization RNCDNC Inc. In the 21st century this dumb cabal has brought us:
full-time war,
NIMBY housing policies that make it impossible to buy in desirable areas,
HUGE increases in government spending,
the worst Healthcare System in the developed world,
a food supply increasingly based on sugars and starches,
the inability to develop a simple/logical immigration plan, 
crappy national infrastructure,
the death of journalism,
increased drug addiction,
mass shootings in schools,
utter dependence on China for critical materials and manufactured goods,
a confusing rope-a-dope attitude toward Russian’s aggression in the world,
much more complex/expensive/ineffectual business regulation,
culture wars,
class wars, and
a stagnant quality of life for most of us.

This situation will get worse because of one simple reason: Too many people support either the DNC or the RNC.

So get used to it because so long as this dopey bunch runs the place, we’re screwed. It’s up to you…

roomtempmayo

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2025, 11:20:17 AM »
So get used to it because so long as this dopey bunch runs the place, we’re screwed. It’s up to you…

One thing the handful of remaining conservatives the country has left understand is that politics is (mostly) downstream of culture. 

Ron Scott

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2025, 12:38:06 PM »
So get used to it because so long as this dopey bunch runs the place, we’re screwed. It’s up to you…

One thing the handful of remaining conservatives the country has left understand is that politics is (mostly) downstream of culture.

I actually think it’s a joke to still call the current crop “conservative”. The RNC seems to be running a rogue play while the DNC stands around munching popcorn. The Twiilight Zone.

JGS1980

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2025, 10:02:43 AM »
It's such a stark contrast to how the majority of people seem to think today, with short-termism, an "extract what you can from the government" attitude, and the common boomer refrain of "I'll be dead by then".

I increasingly struggle to shake the feeling that the American electorate has been fundamentally corrupted over the past three decades.

As recently as the '80s, grand bargains over long term issues like Social Security were possible, not because there was an immediate crisis, but because they were the right thing to do for the country.  Today, there's just zero energy to tackle any of those issues.  I'm not convinced it's because of specific political pressures or structural changes, either.  We can't even do the total freebie stuff that would put us on a better future trajectory, like raise the SS benefits age for people younger than 16 who have never paid into the system.  It's not that there's some acute cost to doing it (it only affects people who have no vested stake in the status quo and who can't vote), it's that there's no energy at all to do anything that might be construed as optional.

And then there's the issue of people living in opulent material comfort who affirmatively want to juice the economy with deficit spending on the backs of the future rather than accept some combination of tiny tax increases, lower growth, and/or benefit cuts.  What the hell is wrong with them, you know?  Somewhere along the way we all became little Scrooge McDucks, sitting on mountains of gold, but insatiably wanting more.  The material status quo is so ludicrously over the top we can't even see it anymore, and all people seem able to think about is making it even crazier.  Why?  It wasn't always like this.

America is run by the organization RNCDNC Inc. In the 21st century this dumb cabal has brought us:
full-time war,
NIMBY housing policies that make it impossible to buy in desirable areas,
HUGE increases in government spending,
the worst Healthcare System in the developed world,
a food supply increasingly based on sugars and starches,
the inability to develop a simple/logical immigration plan, 
crappy national infrastructure,
the death of journalism,
increased drug addiction,
mass shootings in schools,
utter dependence on China for critical materials and manufactured goods,
a confusing rope-a-dope attitude toward Russian’s aggression in the world,
much more complex/expensive/ineffectual business regulation,
culture wars,
class wars, and
a stagnant quality of life for most of us.

This situation will get worse because of one simple reason: Too many people support either the DNC or the RNC.

So get used to it because so long as this dopey bunch runs the place, we’re screwed. It’s up to you…

Don't forget False Equivalency

bmjohnson35

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Re: US national debt discussion
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2025, 07:16:54 PM »

Yet another take on public debt:    https://youtu.be/Eh3iAzbLUqI?si=Br6t-_yjqInPbx1H

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!