Poll

Do You Support Or Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump?

I oppose it.
70 (86.4%)
I support it.
5 (6.2%)
I am undecided.
6 (7.4%)

Total Members Voted: 81

Author Topic: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.  (Read 3670 times)

John Galt incarnate!

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Comey: Biden should consider pardoning Trump | TheHillthehill.com › homenews › administration › 534195-co...
2 days ago — Comey said that a potential pardon from Biden would help "as part of healing the country and getting us to a place where we can focus on things ...

Biden should consider pardon for Trump - Boston Heraldwww.bostonherald.com › 2021/01/15 › biden-should-c...
1 day ago — Former FBI Director James Comey, hardly a favorite of the president, has said that Biden should consider pardoning Trump if he faces criminal ...

Critics Tell James Comey To 'Get Lost,' 'Shut Up' After Saying ...www.huffpost.com › entry › james-comey-biden-shoul...
2 days ago — Critics Tell James Comey To 'Get Lost,' 'Shut Up' After Saying Biden Should Consider Pardoning Trump. The former FBI director, who was fired ...

James Comey says Biden should 'consider' pardoning Trump ...www.independent.co.uk › ... › Americas › US politics
2 days ago — Donald Trump received support from an unexpected quarter on Wednesday after former FBI director James Comey urged Joe Biden to ...

Milizard

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2021, 07:15:55 AM »
Oppose. Trump has acted with impunity, aided and abetted by many Republicans and their spin machine weaving a web of lies so thick and deep that a large portion of the country is suffering from mass delusion.  Conviction and punishment for a small portion of Trump's wrongdoings would only begin to detangle that web.

Trump has also shown zero contrition. If not punished, what would prevent him from further breaking the law in new and despicable ways, or for a new, smarter actor come in and take over where he left off?

Freedom2016

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2021, 07:19:26 AM »
Oppose.

His high crimes and misdemeanors -- directly attacking our democratic system -- should not be swept aside for some temporary feel-good sense of 'unity.' A pardon would signal to future wannabe strong-men that the federal government is willing to turn a blind eye to sedition.

I don't for a minute think it would achieve unity, by the way; the far right radicals would still be pissed he's not their king and keep up their insurrectionist actions.

maizefolk

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2021, 07:40:14 AM »
A year ago I would have supported a pre-emptive pardon for Trump by the new democratic president elect of the types of things which lead to his first impeachment (collusion, obstruction, etc). Putting former presidents on trial isn't a good look for any democracy, and maintaining the norm that presidents can lose reelection in the USA and go back to their lives* is important to the peaceful transitions of power between people who fundamentally disagree.

Today I don't know that I still agree. In the closing days of this administration, Trump has engaged in exactly the behavior that the norm of allowing defeated presidents to return to the private pursuit of happiness without being targets of legal action is meant to disincentivize. So perhaps is really is in the best interest of our nation and the health of our democracy is to establish an additional precedent: that there are consequences to refusing to accept the outcome of elections and instead seeking to overturn those outcomes with violent insurrection.

*A norm built up over 220 years by both Jon Adamses, Van Buren, Cleveland, Harrison, Taft, Hoover, Carter, and George Bush Sr. who each accepted their defeat going back to when the first Jon Adams lost re-election in 1800.

Morning Glory

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2021, 07:54:42 AM »
Oppose: If we let him get away with it then there will be more like him trying to take away our democracy.

I would love to see the seditious fucker jailed. Maybe in one of those ICE detention facilities...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 10:08:16 AM by Morning Glory »

Paper Chaser

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2021, 07:59:19 AM »
Oppose. Not willing to encourage, or set precedent that this kind of behavior is acceptable from the leader of our country.

Kris

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2021, 08:06:25 AM »
Oppose. Not willing to encourage, or set precedent that this kind of behavior is acceptable from the leader of our country.

Also oppose for this reason.

OtherJen

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2021, 08:13:18 AM »
Oppose. If there are no consequences, we'll end up with another Nixon or Trump.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2021, 08:40:55 AM »
Oppose for all the reasons stated above. Also: Comey seems like an idiot. He had a big hand in giving Trump a victory in the first place, but has never admitted it AFAIK.

Fishindude

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2021, 08:50:27 AM »
I don't think it will ever get there, so this is going to be a non-issue.
Trump hasn't been convicted of anything and his term is up.   

One party is just as bad as the other.  All they want to do is fight amongst themselves and piss away our tax money.

Freedom2016

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2021, 09:04:05 AM »
I don't think it will ever get there, so this is going to be a non-issue.
Trump hasn't been convicted of anything and his term is up.

One party is just as bad as the other.  All they want to do is fight amongst themselves and piss away our tax money.

Bolded is irrelevant. Nixon hadn't been convicted of anything either; Ford gave him a pre-emptive pardon after Nixon's term was up.

Just Joe

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2021, 09:11:33 AM »
I'm left wondering (worrying) if there is something in this for Comey? Trump needs to be prosecuted if he is guilty of the crimes he is accused of.

former player

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2021, 09:30:19 AM »
I'd like to see Trump prosecuted by State and Federal authorities where that is indicated by their policies - ie that they have a reasonable chance of conviction on the evidence and that prosecution is in the public interest.  I don't see any public interest in not prosecuting Trump for sedition if the evidence is sufficient.

What I am hoping for is that there are State authorities (eg in New York) who have some serious charges already lined up and will bring them immediately Trump leaves office.  I hope that they are serious enough that Trump will be put under very severe bail conditions (house arrest, ankle tag, and so on) which together with his social media bans will be enough to keep him out of sight and sound for the starting months of the Biden Presidency.  That way the Biden Presidency can get a clear start without being seen as taking vindictive and precipitate action against his predecessor.  They can take their time, gather the evidence, prosecute anyone in the Trump administration who has committed criminal offences (Hatch Act, anyone) as well as the mob that attacked Congress.  After a year or so of that, plus State prosecutions for eg tax fraud, there's a decent hope that Trump's support will have waned and his guilt become too obvious to deny.

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2021, 10:24:31 AM »
I would support it only if there were an honest and sustained effort on the part of Trump to right the wrongs he has done. Nixon at least had the grace to reign. Trump has only doubled down and has only appeared restrained because he no longer has Twitter and his staff are holding him back.

Unity can only come through truth, acknowledgement and reconciliation of actual wrongs. Trump will provide none of those things, so we will have to take the longer path to unity through accountability. Forgiveness of the unrepentant is only passing the buck.

Abe

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2021, 11:59:16 AM »
Why would he be pardoned? Who gives a s* what Comey thinks?

maisymouser

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2021, 12:56:24 PM »
OP, you have to be kidding, right?? Pardoning Trump will do nothing to 'heal the country'. Comey is insane to think anything otherwise.

Yeesh.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2021, 01:36:29 PM »
OP, you have to be kidding, right?? Pardoning Trump will do nothing to 'heal the country'. Comey is insane to think anything otherwise.

Yeesh.

I adamantly oppose any pardoning  of Trump for reasons I will express as this thread continues to unfold.

I think as you do, that Comey erred when he concluded that a pardon will heal and unite the nation.

There is so much consuming, visceral hatred of Trump that  any pardon will   infuriate the many millions who hate him and his supporters which will further rend the nation.

bacchi

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2021, 01:45:49 PM »
There is so much consuming, visceral hatred of Trump that  any pardon will   infuriate the many millions who hate him and his supporters which will further rend the nation.

This is a good point.

Given his rabid, delusional, supporters, a Biden pardon may make them angrier. After all, a pardon means a crime has been committed and the pardoner (Biden) condescends to absolve the pardoned of any wrongdoing.

For the NY cases, I'm hoping to see some tax fraud charges. It'd be humbling for Trump to be playing golf at a public course instead of his own.

maisymouser

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2021, 03:53:50 PM »
OP, you have to be kidding, right?? Pardoning Trump will do nothing to 'heal the country'. Comey is insane to think anything otherwise.

Yeesh.

I adamantly oppose any pardoning  of Trump for reasons I will express as this thread continues to unfold.

I think as you do, that Comey erred when he concluded that a pardon will heal and unite the nation.

There is so much consuming, visceral hatred of Trump that  any pardon will   infuriate the many millions who hate him and his supporters which will further rend the nation.

OK, phew. I was worried that you may have been supportive of such a measure. I had no idea that Comey was suggesting this sort of thing, so thanks for bringing it to my attention. I will rest assured knowing there is no way in h#ll that it will come to pass.

MilesTeg

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2021, 04:01:03 PM »
Oppose.

You can't have healing without accountability.

Trump makes Nixon look like a boy scout.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2021, 04:50:26 PM »
OP, you have to be kidding, right?? Pardoning Trump will do nothing to 'heal the country'. Comey is insane to think anything otherwise.

Yeesh.

I adamantly oppose any pardoning  of Trump for reasons I will express as this thread continues to unfold.

I think as you do, that Comey erred when he concluded that a pardon will heal and unite the nation.

There is so much consuming, visceral hatred of Trump that  any pardon will   infuriate the many millions who hate him and his supporters which will further rend the nation.

OK, phew. I was worried that you may have been supportive of such a measure. I had no idea that Comey was suggesting this sort of thing, so thanks for bringing it to my attention. I will rest assured knowing there is no way in h#ll that it will come to pass.

I am afraid it is premature to say  "there is no way in h#ll it will come to pass."

As of now there is no assurance Biden will not pardon Trump.

My apologies if I spoiled the rest of your Saturday.

maisymouser

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2021, 05:28:00 PM »
OP, you have to be kidding, right?? Pardoning Trump will do nothing to 'heal the country'. Comey is insane to think anything otherwise.

Yeesh.

I adamantly oppose any pardoning  of Trump for reasons I will express as this thread continues to unfold.

I think as you do, that Comey erred when he concluded that a pardon will heal and unite the nation.

There is so much consuming, visceral hatred of Trump that  any pardon will   infuriate the many millions who hate him and his supporters which will further rend the nation.

OK, phew. I was worried that you may have been supportive of such a measure. I had no idea that Comey was suggesting this sort of thing, so thanks for bringing it to my attention. I will rest assured knowing there is no way in h#ll that it will come to pass.

I am afraid it is premature to say  "there is no way in h#ll it will come to pass."

As of now there is no assurance Biden will not pardon Trump.

My apologies if I spoiled the rest of your Saturday.

You know, a lot has surprised me lately so I have to take this seriously. I will not hold it against you for saying it could happen. It's a weird decade already.

geekette

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2021, 05:47:38 PM »
Why is there not a "Fuck no" button?

RetiredAt63

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2021, 05:59:59 PM »
I thought this was an interesting piece from an American historian about coups and pardons.

https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellanea-insurrections-ancient-and-modern-and-also-meet-the-academicats/

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2021, 06:04:07 PM »
There is so much consuming, visceral hatred of Trump that  any pardon will   infuriate the many millions who hate him and his supporters which will further rend the nation.

This is a good point.

Given his rabid, delusional, supporters, a Biden pardon may make them angrier. After all, a pardon means a crime has been committed and the pardoner (Biden) condescends to absolve the pardoned of any wrongdoing.



"High Crimes and Misdemeanors" may be an actual violation of the criminal law or not.

The House of Representatives' decision as to  what constitutes "high Crimes and Misdemeanors"  is not a decision that requires that they meet all the elements of a particular statute in a penal code.

Thus, if an impeached party   accepts a pardon it  means they  may have  committed an actual crime such as a felony or misdemeanor,  or the wrongful act they committed, or failure to perform their constitutional duty, though not an actual crime, suffices, according to at least a simple majority of the House of Representatives, to meet the constitutional requirement of "high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

A pardonee's  acceptance of their  pardon is tantamount  to  "confession of" their commission of a wrongful act or failure to perform their constitutional duty  under "high Crime and  Misdemeanors" which is why a pardoneee can never escape opprobrium for their misdeed(s).

This informed Ford's rationale of Nixon's pardon.

Long after he pardoned Nixon  in his wallet Ford carried a section of the Burdick opinion.




BURDICK v. UNITED STATES
(1915)

This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial.  the latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.




« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 06:10:12 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Villanelle

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2021, 06:13:26 PM »
I think *maybe* it Trump came out and gave a full and honest accounting of all his lies--going back through birtherism, including the wall and his taxes, The Ukraine business and his intentions, his lies about the election, his attempts to get Georgia and likely others to change the election results, his lies about Covid, his lies about his finances and how he and his family would handle them while elected, and everything else, then I could support a pardon.  If he stood in front of America and said, "I did these things.  I lied about them, knowingly and intentionally, in order to manipulate voters or keep power.  I did X, Y, and Z.  I told A, B, and C lies," then I could probably support a pardon, in the face of a FULL accounting.

As that will never happen, I think a pardon would do nothing to unify us.  It would simply let him off the hook and embolden him and his successors and supporters.  I think he needs to face full legal consequences for anything and everything he did.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2021, 06:20:56 PM »
Why is there not a "Fuck no" button?

Methinks that option is indecorous  but I hasten to add that sometimes there is no substitute for the blunt parlance of the street.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 06:23:14 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

scottish

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2021, 08:02:07 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Biden is unlikely to pardon Trump.   And Trump is unlikely to accept a pardon from Biden if it were offered.     

However, can Biden instruct the justice department to drop all federal investigations into Trump and the Trump organization?

J Boogie

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2021, 08:06:11 PM »
I would generally be in favor of the pardon so that the US could mitigate the dictator's dilemma.

But ultimately I believe the lessons future generations can draw from his legacy will be far more powerful if he is officially recognized as criminally corrupt.

I would probably still favor pardoning him if he didn't pretend he won "in a landslide."

Funny how his surrogates flock to these pithy catch phrases (is no collusion, no corruption)  and use them over and over in place of actual arguments.

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2021, 12:24:51 AM »
I think *maybe* it Trump came out and gave a full and honest accounting of all his lies--going back through birtherism, including the wall and his taxes, The Ukraine business and his intentions, his lies about the election, his attempts to get Georgia and likely others to change the election results, his lies about Covid, his lies about his finances and how he and his family would handle them while elected, and everything else, then I could support a pardon.  If he stood in front of America and said, "I did these things.  I lied about them, knowingly and intentionally, in order to manipulate voters or keep power.  I did X, Y, and Z.  I told A, B, and C lies," then I could probably support a pardon, in the face of a FULL accounting.

As that will never happen, I think a pardon would do nothing to unify us.  It would simply let him off the hook and embolden him and his successors and supporters.  I think he needs to face full legal consequences for anything and everything he did.

Yep, a full allocution for history books.

Milizard

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2021, 06:56:05 AM »
It is also outrageous that people at the very top in this country are dealt with kid gloves, and get off Scot free with high crimes, while people at the bottom doing petty crime are dealt with swiftly and severely.  We need to send a message that no one is above the law.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 08:05:07 AM by Milizard »

Morning Glory

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2021, 07:17:22 AM »
It is also outrageous that people at the very top in this country are dealt with kid glives, and get off Scot free with high crimes, while people at the bottom doing petty crime are dealt with swiftly and severely.  We need to send a message that no one is above the law.

His administration locked people up for months and separated them from their children just for being here. He and his collaborators need to be punished for their crimes.

rantk81

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2021, 07:29:06 AM »
OPPOSE.

I think Trump is the worst president in the entire history of the country. By a long shot. His actions that resulted in both of his Impeachments did/do merit his removal from office.  I honestly believe that he belongs in jail.

To say that Trump is leaving the nation in shambles and a dumpster fire is a serious understatement.

WITH ALL THAT SAID -- I also OPPOSE the Senate putting Trump on trial in the Senate.  It would give the Republicans a golden-ticket to bog down any of Biden's agenda.  We don't have any time to waste in cleaning up this shitshow that Trump created/festered/etc.

The only "punishment" that could come out of an Impeachment trial at this point, would be barring Trump from holding another federal office (basically, prevent him from running for President again.)  I think that this bar would also be a gift to Republicans, strategically speaking.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2021, 08:27:45 AM »
NOW I understand why Comey is in the news - he’s selling another book. What a jerk.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2021, 09:16:12 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Biden is unlikely to pardon Trump.   And Trump is unlikely to accept a pardon from Biden if it were offered.   

IDK what Biden is thinking about pardoning Trump.

Trump is not so obtuse that he does not understand the ramifications (Burdick)of his acceptance of a pardon.

I think Trump will accept a pardon if he fears conviction  for commission of federal crimes.   



However, can Biden instruct the justice department to drop all federal investigations into Trump and the Trump organization?


Yes.

 The executive-branch power vested in the president under Article II obligates them to implement and enforce current federal  laws and new ones passed by Congress.

 Executive-branch power includes the president's power  to direct the operations of the attorney general, the federal government's chief law enforcement officer.

Thus, the president  has authority to order the department of justice to stop ongoing investigations  or commence new ones.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 09:29:47 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

Fishindude

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2021, 09:17:33 AM »
So much hate.
Your man Biden is taking office in a couple days.   Give it a rest and let's see how he and his regime perform.

It's been said a million times, but the president isn't the problem nearly so much as the house and senate.
Term limits are the only cure.


partgypsy

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2021, 10:19:40 AM »
pardoning Trump will not do anything to heal the country. The people who saw Trump undermine and try to overthrow a lawful election will be very angry (myself included). Having an example that an outgoing president or others in power can incite sedition, and get pardoned is a very bad precedent and will embolden others to feel there is no consequences to the very dangerous speech and actions of Trump and his supporters. 

Trump supporters will see a pardon as evidence and admittance that Trump wasn't guilty of anything.

Burdick case does NOT mean that to accept a pardon means you are also admitting guilt. That is an incorrect reading of the case. Therefore Trump can both accept the pardon AND say he is innocent. Maybe that case made Ford feel better but it didn't mean what he thought it meant.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 10:21:17 AM by partgypsy »

partgypsy

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2021, 10:24:20 AM »
So much hate.
Your man Biden is taking office in a couple days.   Give it a rest and let's see how he and his regime perform.

It's been said a million times, but the president isn't the problem nearly so much as the house and senate.
Term limits are the only cure.

I've heard people say that, but there has been a trend, accelerated under Trump of the President seizing more and more power. Therefore the balance between the three arms, is pretty unbalanced. Here we have seen that if the president commits impeachable offenses, but his party also controls the senate, impeachment as a "cure" is basically toothless. Also under Trump DOJ basically said that sitting presidents can't be tried for crimes. That means that not only has the President consolidated power, it makes it very difficult to get rid of a president who either performs his duties poorly, may not be competent, or even try to retain power illegally. Trump even tried to use the judgicial arm (by picking three judges he felt would be personally loyal to him) to overrule the election. We don't have to guess or infer his motivations; he came out and said it. Fortunately that arm held and checks and balances worked. Otherwise the democracy that we know of and have lived under over the past 200 years would have been gone.

If I was going to pick a problem, is that there is too much money in politics. Corporations and super rich people have way too much influence on polticis, especially after disasterous Citizens United ruling. That's what needs to change.  That and having states have impartial groups draw the political districts instead of whoever happens to be in power.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 10:34:46 AM by partgypsy »

Kris

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2021, 10:55:05 AM »
So much hate.
Your man Biden is taking office in a couple days.   Give it a rest and let's see how he and his regime perform.

It's been said a million times, but the president isn't the problem nearly so much as the house and senate.
Term limits are the only cure.


LOL.

That “so much hate” line is just a hilariously transparent attempt at a diversion. As if wanting a president who shits on the Constitution, lies like he breathes, and has committed any number of criminal offenses against this country to be held accountable is just some sort of liberal hissy fit.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 11:18:58 AM by Kris »

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2021, 10:59:26 AM »
So much hate.
Your man Biden is taking office in a couple days.   Give it a rest and let's see how he and his regime perform.

It's been said a million times, but the president isn't the problem nearly so much as the house and senate.
Term limits are the only cure.

I've heard people say that, but there has been a trend, accelerated under Trump of the President seizing more and more power. Therefore the balance between the three arms, is pretty unbalanced. Here we have seen that if the president commits impeachable offenses, but his party also controls the senate, impeachment as a "cure" is basically toothless. Also under Trump DOJ basically said that sitting presidents can't be tried for crimes. That means that not only has the President consolidated power, it makes it very difficult to get rid of a president who either performs his duties poorly, may not be competent, or even try to retain power illegally. Trump even tried to use the judgicial arm (by picking three judges he felt would be personally loyal to him) to overrule the election. We don't have to guess or infer his motivations; he came out and said it. Fortunately that arm held and checks and balances worked. Otherwise the democracy that we know of and have lived under over the past 200 years would have been gone.

If I was going to pick a problem, is that there is too much money in politics. Corporations and super rich people have way too much influence on polticis, especially after disasterous Citizens United ruling. That's what needs to change.  That and having states have impartial groups draw the political districts instead of whoever happens to be in power.
The history of revolutions suggests that it is rarely the first attempt at revolution that succeeds, it is one of the following attempts.  Impeaching Trump, or convicting him of crimes that mean he can't hold federal office again, might at least put off the next attempt at revolution in the US for a few years.

I would be very worried about a Trump-run Republican Party putting revolutionaries into positions such as Secretary of State and Attorney General in battleground States, in order to rig the next election.

Chris Pascale

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2021, 07:55:09 PM »
Given that he wanted to look into pardoning himself - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/trump-self-pardon-report-b1784150.html - it's apparent he was given advice about what's coming.

I'd honestly say "I don't care. We got what we deserved here, particularly with the election of another President past his natural life expectancy," but Yang was bending this way about a year ago - https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/02/pardon-trump-andrew-yang-2020-110331 - and so I'm open to it.

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2021, 08:08:39 PM »
I'd honestly say "I don't care. We got what we deserved here, particularly with the election of another President past his natural life expectancy," but Yang was bending this way about a year ago - https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/02/pardon-trump-andrew-yang-2020-110331 - and so I'm open to it.

Yeah, it was Yang's reasoning that convinced me it might be a good idea to pardon Trump for the collusion/obstruction stuff, not for Trump's sake but for our own.

But I think there is a big difference between that and the more recent occupation of congress. I don't know that I've seen Yang asked about a pardon recently, but I have seen him talk very directly about being in favor of this second impeachment and hoping for a conviction in the senate.

Chris Pascale

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2021, 08:15:48 PM »
I'd honestly say "I don't care. We got what we deserved here, particularly with the election of another President past his natural life expectancy," but Yang was bending this way about a year ago - https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/02/pardon-trump-andrew-yang-2020-110331 - and so I'm open to it.

Yeah, it was Yang's reasoning that convinced me it might be a good idea to pardon Trump for the collusion/obstruction stuff, not for Trump's sake but for our own.

But I think there is a big difference between that and the more recent occupation of congress. I don't know that I've seen Yang asked about a pardon recently, but I have seen him talk very directly about being in favor of this second impeachment and hoping for a conviction in the senate.

You bring up a great point; I'm being too general.

Because of the report that he was enjoying the show on live TV and didn't act like a leader (when they planted the flag of another nation (Confederate States of America) in our capitol building) he should be barred from holding further office.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-was-watching-tv-while-riots-took-place-2021-1

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2021, 11:05:06 AM »
I want a return to the rule of law, and the only way to keep another like Trump from rising is to show that a President is not above the law.  I don't want the pursuit to take over the work of the DoJ or FBI, but I'd like to see Biden assign a small team to pursuing this for as long as needed.  If that means every President gets investigated after leaving office, so be it.

I would also like to see legislation that put some teeth in things like the emoluments clause.

maizefolk

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2021, 11:09:09 AM »
I would also like to see legislation that put some teeth in things like the emoluments clause.

This seems like an outstanding idea.

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2021, 01:06:16 PM »


I would also like to see legislation that put some teeth in things like the emoluments clause.

Here  is the Title of Nobility Clause that includes the Emolument Clause.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

I do not think that the Emolument Clause presents an issue of  constitutional  violation  for the reason that virtually all of Congress knows that while president, Trump continues to benefit financially from his far-flung enterprises.

 I think Congress' knowledge of these financial benefits and lack of any consistent, congressional   opposition to Trump receiving them is tantamount to "Consent of the Congress."


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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2021, 01:22:01 PM »
Trump has acted in a belligerent manner at every instance even the suggestion of misdeed or wrongdoing has come up.  I feel like a pardon would reward and even encourage this type of behaviour.  Denying justice in this manner would continue to grow wounds.  Rather than help healing, it would entrench the tradition of a president being above the law and unaccountable for his actions.

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Re: I Support/Oppose Biden's Pardoning Of Trump Because ____________.
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2021, 05:51:46 PM »


I would also like to see legislation that put some teeth in things like the emoluments clause.

Here  is the Title of Nobility Clause that includes the Emolument Clause.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

I do not think that the Emolument Clause presents an issue of  constitutional  violation  for the reason that virtually all of Congress knows that while president, Trump continues to benefit financially from his far-flung enterprises.

 I think Congress' knowledge of these financial benefits and lack of any consistent, congressional   opposition to Trump receiving them is tantamount to "Consent of the Congress."

As I recall, early on during Trump's presidency several lawsuits were filed alleging Trump was in violation of the emoluments clause, but the first several were thrown out because the plaintiffs lacked standing. One involved a hotel that claimed it lost business because Trump was strongly encouraging any foreign dignitary to stay at his hotel if they wanted to get an audience with him.