Author Topic: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...  (Read 88928 times)

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #150 on: July 18, 2013, 07:51:51 AM »
i think NFP requires more effort.  it involves basal body temps, cervical mucous, and cervical position if i'm correct.  thats like something you have to do every day! i'm way too lazy for that.  i have a friend that NFP's and shes awesome at it, she charts and does all this stuff, i'm actually pretty impressed.
i took the lazy man's way out..... 10 year IUD for the win!

Thanks. I agree that not every method is right for everybody. I'm glad you found something that works for you, and hopefully you aren't experiencing any of the side effects of IUDs that I just read about. Ouch!

My wife has narrowed NFP down to the advanced method of cervical mucous, which works because of her regular cycle. It requires no more time than taking a pill every morning, and has no side effects at all. And if she forgets to do it one morning, it doesn't have any effects beyond that day, and she can just pick up where she left off the next day.

Thankfully, we're way past the temperatures and charting. It was a fascinating process to learn about, though.


chicagomeg

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #151 on: July 18, 2013, 08:07:23 AM »
It's pretty widespread.
Less than one in 50. Would it kill you to look for a statistic to support your ridiculous opinions just once?

Maybe you just have different opinions of widespread. 1 in 50 sounds pretty prevalent to me.

NumberCruncher

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #152 on: July 18, 2013, 08:18:39 AM »
Thanks. I agree that not every method is right for everybody. I'm glad you found something that works for you, and hopefully you aren't experiencing any of the side effects of IUDs that I just read about. Ouch!

I've got the hormonal one, and I like the side effects! I have all but eliminated the cramping that used to require copious amounts of ibuprofen and/or sick days once a month. Technically, it also decreases my chances of uterine cancer, too. IUDs aren't for everyone, and they do come with side effects (positive and negative), but they're super effective.

mpbaker22

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #153 on: July 18, 2013, 08:25:04 AM »
Incidentally, if you want to beat those odds, combine NFP and condoms, every time. Even the Pope says it is okay, now.



At some point people just need to recognize the troll as what it is.

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #154 on: July 18, 2013, 08:37:16 AM »
I would like to see where you are getting that data, as far as I know the Catholic church has never approved of any artificial birth control.
I provided a link to the "data" I highlighted and renbutler had no problem fixing the bad url. Here it is again for you:

http://www.cyclebeads.com/uploads/cke_images/Typical-Use-Effectiveness-Comparison-Birth-Control-Methods---Contraceptive-Technology-20th-Edition.jpg

With regard to the policy, I didn't say that the Pope approved of condoms "for birth control": I was being a bit liberal in my presentation of the Pope's dictate. What he did was okay use of condoms in the interest of protecting against AIDS transmission. This was back in November 2010. You're welcome to check historical news services the assure yourself that he did indeed do so.

Now why someone would need to protect themselves from AIDS transmission, when they're supposedly having sex only with the one and only person that they're ever supposed to have had sex with, etc. -- well don't ask me to rationalize the inconsistencies of Catholicism.

As to as the effectiveness of NFP - as far as I have ever been able to tell it is just as effective as other standard methods when used consistently and correctly
"I would like to see where you are getting that data." I provided links to the data I relied on. You're relying on your own gut feel, and you're including a non-controllable conditional. It's like saying that you will hit the bull's eye playing darts every single time as long as you aim and throw "consistently and correctly". People are human - your comments don't factor that in.


Your link doesn't work. ... EDIT: Is this the chart you wanted? http://www.cyclebeads.com/uploads/cke_images/Birth-Control-Effectiveness-Comparison-Adapted-from-Contraceptive-Technology-20th-Edition.jpg
Yup that's the one. Thanks for the fix.

It looks like the Sympto-thermal method is right on par with other methods.
Then you're not reading the chart correctly, or you forgot what I wrote, using that chart as evidence. This is what I wrote:

And assuming they don't choose to factor in the typical 4-14% higher probability of incurring the cost of an unplanned child, as compared to the most effective artificial method.

If you would please respond to what I actually wrote (i.e., the 4-14% difference in probability between the most effective natural methods and most effective artificial methods, in the typical case) instead of something easier to argue against, I would appreciate it.

Plus, as I pointed out, it has a slew of advantages that the others don't.
And there are advantages of the pill that you haven't mentioned either.

I still reject your numbers though.
Then you're denying reality. That's your choice.

Maybe you just have different opinions of widespread. 1 in 50 sounds pretty prevalent to me.
"Widespread" makes it sound like the prevalence of fraud is perhaps as common as the prevalence of conformance, when of course the reality is no where near that. 1 in 50 is not widespread. "Rare" is actually a better characterization.

At some point people just need to recognize the troll as what it is.
And at some point people just need to sit back and ask for clarifications instead of making ridiculously rude comments about other posters like you just did.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 08:54:11 AM by bUU »

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #155 on: July 18, 2013, 09:04:23 AM »
Now why someone would need to protect themselves from AIDS transmission, when they're supposedly having sex only with the one and only person that they're ever supposed to have had sex with, etc. -- well don't ask me to rationalize the inconsistencies of Catholicism.

The supposition that leads to the reluctant endorsement of condoms is that they are NOT just having sex within marriage. And that is NOT supported or endorsed in any way. Simply put: the Church says that if there's almost certain death at stake, sex outside of marriage might as well be protected sex.

No inconsistency there whatsoever.

People are human - your comments don't factor that in.

I'm human. So is my wife (as far as I can tell).

Our success in preventing unwanted pregnancy is 100% over six years. And I doubt that we're just really lucky. We are the types who think that anything worthwhile is worth putting our full effort into. The evidence is apparent in areas other than just our natural family planning.

And they don't just make up those "perfect use" numbers out of the air. They can't arrive at those numbers without studying "humans" who are actually demonstrating perfect usage.

Then you're not reading the chart correctly, or you forgot what I wrote, using that chart as evidence. This is what I wrote:

And assuming they don't choose to factor in the typical 4-14% higher probability of incurring the cost of an unplanned child, as compared to the most effective artificial method.

If you would please respond to what I actually wrote (i.e., the 4-14% difference in probability between the most effective natural methods and most effective artificial methods, in the typical case) instead of something easier to argue against, I would appreciate it.

But we're not typical users. I couldn't care less what typical people do. It's too important of an issue to strive for anything less than perfection.

Frankly, if you are concerned ONLY with typical usage, then ALL of those methods have significant failure rates. If I were a typical user, I'd be wary about all of them.

And there are advantages of the pill that you haven't mentioned either.

Okay. But I'm not here to argue for or against the pill. Feel free to share if that's what you want to do.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 09:11:28 AM by renbutler »

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #156 on: July 18, 2013, 09:12:35 AM »
Now why someone would need to protect themselves from AIDS transmission, when they're supposedly having sex only with the one and only person that they're ever supposed to have had sex with, etc. -- well don't ask me to rationalize the inconsistencies of Catholicism.

The supposition that leads to the reluctant endorsement of condoms is that they are NOT just having sex within marriage. And that is NOT supported or endorsed in any way.
Fair enough. I surely am not going to begrudge Catholics their own rules, even if they don't make sense to me.

No inconsistency there whatsoever.
We'll have to agree to disagree about that. :)

People are human - your comments don't factor that in.
I'm human. So is my wife (as far as I can tell). Our success in preventing unwanted pregnancy is 100% over six years. And I doubt that we're just really lucky...
Why do you doubt that? You should know that anecdotes are meaningless in the presence of normalized data from research.

But we're not typical users.
And of course everyone is above average. :)

Sorry, but I am not going to address comments that veer off from discussing the matter generally to focusing on your own personal sex life: First, you're not going to be receptive to any comments that undercut your own personal, non-verifiable appraisal of your own capabilities. Second, one's own personal situation is never relevant to the broad context of the discussions we're engaging in.

I couldn't care less what typical people do. It's too important of an issue to strive for anything less than perfection.
Striving is great. But please show me where the mustachian perspective talks about planning based on perfection instead of what's typical?

And there are advantages of the pill that you haven't mentioned either.
Okay. But I'm not here to argue for or against the pill.
Could'a fooled me. But it's really not important.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #157 on: July 18, 2013, 09:27:12 AM »
Why do you doubt that? You should know that anecdotes are meaningless in the presence of normalized data from research.

You quoted an earlier draft of my post. I added this later:

And they don't just make up those "perfect use" numbers out of the air. They can't arrive at those numbers without studying "humans" who are actually demonstrating perfect usage.

Sorry, but I am not going to address comments that veer off from discussing the matter generally to focusing on your own personal sex life: First, you're not going to be receptive to any comments that undercut your own personal, non-verifiable appraisal of your own capabilities. Second, one's own personal situation is never relevant to the broad context of the discussions we're engaging in.

And that goes right back to that same added comment: THEY CANNOT HAVE PERFECT USAGE NUMBERS WITHOUT STUDYING REAL PEOPLE IN REAL SITUATIONS. My wife and I are not extreme examples, nor are we typical users who are getting lucky (while getting lucky -- heh heh).

Striving is great. But please show me where the mustachian perspective talks about planning based on perfection instead of what's typical?

But Mustachians are not typical people doing typical things. I think that's been pretty well established. Even an imperfect (typical?) Mustachian is going to accomplish more than a typical non-Mustachian.

Could'a fooled me.

Really? I have said there are side effects and flaws to the pill that NFP doesn't have. Those are just facts. But I did NOT say people shouldn't use the pill.

I also said that not every method is right for everybody. My wife wouldn't use an IUD, but I didn't criticize the posters who said they use it.

I'm really not appreciating your tone, to be honest.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 09:29:29 AM by renbutler »

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #158 on: July 18, 2013, 09:54:56 AM »
Which is why I have several times prompted you to stop trying to assert your own personal situation as if it were something that can be discussed. You don't want your personal observations of your own situation second-guessed - that's natural - so there isn't any point in trying to discuss them if you're just going to object to the tone of any comments that challenge what you're claiming.

Going back to the typical case: I'm not sure why you're objecting to the 4-14% comment in that context.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #159 on: July 18, 2013, 10:02:38 AM »
Which is why I have several times prompted you to stop trying to assert your own personal situation as if it were something that can be discussed. You don't want your personal observations of your own situation second-guessed - that's natural - so there isn't any point in trying to discuss them if you're just going to object to the tone of any comments that challenge what you're claiming.

Good Lord. My personal situation is just part of a casual conversation. I'm not trying to sell NFP based on my own experience. The numbers sell it (or not, based on the beholder) just fine on their own.

I discuss my personal situation for the same reason people share any personal experience on the Internet: Because I feel like it. My personal situation CAN be discussed, and quite frankly, I'm not sure why you think you have the authority to say it CAN'T be discussed. Your post quoted here was the epitome of arrogance.

Nobody is forcing you into this discussion. If you think there is no point in having it, by all means stop doing something you believe is pointless.

BTW, I didn't object to "the tone of any comments that challenge" what I'm claiming. The challenge and the tone are separate issues. Challenge away. Just watch your tone, okay?

Going back to the typical case: I'm not sure why you're objecting to the 4-14% comment in that context.

I'm not objecting to those raw numbers. I'm saying they don't apply to me. If I were a "typical user," I would be less worried about "4-14%" and more worried that every method puts me at significant risk of failure. I would find little solace that the best probability is better than the others considering that it would fail one out of 12 times.

In other words, I would probably stop having sex if I were going to be a typical user and didn't want my wife to get pregnant. And if you insist on reading that column exclusively, I would encourage the same thing for you.

Thankfully, I live in the next column over...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 10:10:15 AM by renbutler »

mpbaker22

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #160 on: July 18, 2013, 10:17:54 AM »
http://www.cyclebeads.com/uploads/cke_images/Typical-Use-Effectiveness-Comparison-Birth-Control-Methods---Contraceptive-Technology-20th-Edition.jpg

With regard to the policy, I didn't say that the Pope approved of condoms "for birth control": I was being a bit liberal in my presentation of the Pope's dictate. What he did was okay use of condoms in the interest of protecting against AIDS transmission. This was back in November 2010. You're welcome to check historical news services the assure yourself that he did indeed do so.

Now why someone would need to protect themselves from AIDS transmission, when they're supposedly having sex only with the one and only person that they're ever supposed to have had sex with, etc. -- well don't ask me to rationalize the inconsistencies of Catholicism.


This is a gross mis-statement of the actual words from the pope.  I see the trolling continues ...

Also, I'm not sure why you re-posted that link, it wasn't even in question and it only serves to strengthen renbutler's arguments.

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #161 on: July 18, 2013, 10:25:24 AM »
I discuss my personal situation for the same reason people share any personal experience on the Internet: Because I feel like it. My personal situation CAN be discussed
Thanks. Then please respect my comments in that spirit. Nuf sed.

Going back to the typical case: I'm not sure why you're objecting to the 4-14% comment in that context.
I'm not objecting to those raw numbers. I'm saying they don't apply to me.
If you believe that, then that is all that should matter to you. Regardless, the 4-14% comment wasn't about you, so I believe you can see how we got into this back and forth.

In other words, I would probably stop having sex if I were going to be a typical user and didn't want my wife to get pregnant. And if you insist on reading that column exclusively, I would encourage the same thing for you.
My spouse and I enjoy truly perfect, natural 100% reliable contraception.

Menopause. :)


I see the trolling continues ...
I see the rudeness continues.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #162 on: July 18, 2013, 10:41:58 AM »
Thanks. Then please respect my comments in that spirit. Nuf sed.

I'm not sure where I disrespected your comments, but okay.

My spouse and I enjoy truly perfect, natural 100% reliable contraception.

Menopause. :)

That'll do. :)

Sofa King

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #163 on: July 18, 2013, 12:48:36 PM »
It's pretty widespread.
Less than one in 50. Would it kill you to look for a statistic to support your ridiculous opinions just once?

It may not be "fraud" but a woman who keeps pumping out baby after baby while on welfare is as bad a fraud. There should be personal accountability.  But the system rewards these losers with paying them to have more children. The more irresponsible they are the more they will be rewarded.   

grantmeaname

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Eric

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #165 on: July 18, 2013, 01:32:24 PM »
It's pretty widespread.
Less than one in 50. Would it kill you to look for a statistic to support your ridiculous opinions just once?

It may not be "fraud" but a woman who keeps pumping out baby after baby while on welfare is as bad a fraud. There should be personal accountability.  But the system rewards these losers with paying them to have more children. The more irresponsible they are the more they will be rewarded.

You still haven't addressed why you think we should punish the children for the actions of their parents.  But I'm guessing you won't, because that would upset your troll-fu.

Sofa King

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #166 on: July 18, 2013, 01:58:16 PM »
Repeat offenders only. And they can always so no but then the FREE $$$$$ has to stop. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization     

Do these people just not understand that they need to stop making babies? Are they really that stupid. STOP REWARDING BAD LIFE CHOICES.   Things will never change so you should be happy!

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #167 on: July 18, 2013, 02:17:02 PM »
Repeat offenders only. And they can always so no but then the FREE $$$$$ has to stop. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization     

Do these people just not understand that they need to stop making babies? Are they really that stupid. STOP REWARDING BAD LIFE CHOICES.   Things will never change so you should be happy!

Okay, now we're going down a really dark path here.

I can agree with the sentiment about limiting welfare for those who clearly don't want to work or behave responsibly. But forced sterilization is a horrible affront to personal liberty.

Perhaps it is appropriate for habitual sex criminals who continually violate the personal liberty of others, but even then there are moral concerns, IMO.

Sofa King

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #168 on: July 18, 2013, 02:21:22 PM »
It would not be mandatory. These people can refuse but then the FREE $$$$$ stops. They do have a choice.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #169 on: July 18, 2013, 02:36:40 PM »
It would not be mandatory.

That's essentially a synonym for compulsory.

So if you didn't really mean for it to be compulsory/mandatory, it's not as disturbing.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #170 on: July 18, 2013, 02:38:12 PM »
Regarding the NFP, there are other health benefits for the woman. She learns about her cycle, and may have a heads up to fertility complications prior to even trying to conceive. Also, as she ages, she is familiar enough with how her body works to know when problems arise. We did not take classes, but a stellar book on the subject isTaking Charge of Your Fertility.  Personally, I feel it's a fine method of birth control for two partners in a committed relationship(which means marriage for me).

I learned a lot about female fertility too as the other half. Ideally, the process is supposed to be a joint effort by the couple.

At least in the analysis stage. (The woman probably doesn't want the man actually collecting the data, if you know what I mean...)

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #171 on: July 18, 2013, 03:36:38 PM »
Thanks. I agree that not every method is right for everybody. I'm glad you found something that works for you, and hopefully you aren't experiencing any of the side effects of IUDs that I just read about. Ouch!

I've got the hormonal one, and I like the side effects! I have all but eliminated the cramping that used to require copious amounts of ibuprofen and/or sick days once a month. Technically, it also decreases my chances of uterine cancer, too. IUDs aren't for everyone, and they do come with side effects (positive and negative), but they're super effective.

+1 for Mirena. I'm on my second one and have great experiences with this method of BC. (I had our first child, got mirena IUD #1. It kept us pregnancy free for five years. Decided to try for second child, had IUD removed. Had one cycle, conceived. Had second child, got Mirena IUD #2.)

I like not worrying about remembering pills, and I have about an 8-hour very light TOM about every other or every third month. I haven't noticed any other side effects.

destron

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #172 on: July 18, 2013, 04:14:25 PM »
By my reading, homeschooled kids are dramatically more likely to be white (92% of this sample) and have married parents (98%) than the average student. Their parents have much higher educational attainment - they're more than twice as likely to have a college degree; 98.3% have a computer in the home. While homeschooling parents have a similar median income to all parents, they are dramatically less likely to be very poor - only 1.5% of them made $30,000 or less, while the figure for the population on the whole is something like 30%. On top of that, students homeschooled for only part of their life and students homeschooled their entire career scored the same. With demographics like that, I'm really not convinced that it's love, independence, and Christianity that explain the students' outperformance.

Grant, I was responding to the criticism of 10 yr old homeschool kids that "can't read".  It is a much lower percentage of kids than you would find in public school. Nobody said anything about religion, so I'm not sure why you brought that into it. However, if PP was using a personal example of a kid he knows in this situation, it is probable that the kid has learning issues, so parents decided it was best for him to learn at home.

Nobody mentioned religion, but you mentioned that public school did not teach your values. We are all wondering what you meant by that.

I apologize if I missed it in another post.

Except that you are putting words in my mouth.  Another poster said that, not me.

You are correct, I got you confused with Mom n teacher. I apologize.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #173 on: July 18, 2013, 05:22:58 PM »
We had our kids in the hospital. We never even considered home birth.

MrsPete

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #174 on: July 18, 2013, 06:43:15 PM »
NFP is a well-known method, which works pretty well for people who study how to use it and are self-disciplined enough to use it consistently.
I don't know what this means.  What's artificial birth control?  Is a condom artificial?  The Pill?  An IUD?

Chemicals and barriers are artificial. Manufactured in a factory.


So essentially, your birth control is no birth control?  No offense, but that sounds fucking insane to me.  Of course, my wife and I don't want kids ever, so that may explain my perspective.  Glad it works for you.  I'd never heard it called "artificial" before.

oldtoyota

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #175 on: July 18, 2013, 07:18:10 PM »
It's pretty widespread.
Less than one in 50. Would it kill you to look for a statistic to support your ridiculous opinions just once?

+1

Sofa King

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #176 on: July 18, 2013, 07:26:30 PM »


http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/07/18/mom-of-9-charged-with-abusing-18-pound-4-year-old-daughter/

Mom Of 9 Charged With Abusing 18-Pound 4-Year-Old Daughter



SANTA ANA (CBSLA.com) — A 35-year-old Santa Ana woman was arrested on child abuse charges Thursday for allegedly depriving her 18-pound 4-year-old daughter of food and medical care.

Antonia Benitez was charged July 9 with three felony counts of child abuse with a sentencing enhancement for great bodily injury to a child younger than 5, according to the Orange County district attorney’s office. Her bail was set at $250,000 and she’s expected to be arraigned Friday.

On June 4, authorities said Benitez brought her daughter to a local hospital for an infected leg wound and left. The girl weighed just 18 pounds.

Benitez is also accused of taking the victim to the hospital for being underweight in July 2012, but the case was not reported to law enforcement.

Benitez’s nine children, ranging from 4 to 16 years old, are now in the custody of Social Services.

If convicted, the suspect faces a maximum sentence of 14 years and six months in state prison.

grantmeaname

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #177 on: July 18, 2013, 07:30:30 PM »
Your point is what exactly?

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #178 on: July 19, 2013, 04:19:58 AM »
These people can refuse but then the FREE $$$$$ stops.
That's still punishing the child for the parent's actions.

This is really a critical question: Those who advocate against TANF in cases like this must admit, at least to themselves, what they would have society do. I've never seen an explanation that doesn't end up hurting the children - a morally offensive conclusion as far as I'm concerned, and certainly a violation of the principle that most opponents of TANF claim to hold dear, i.e., personal responsibility - holding the parent responsible for their own actions, not holding their children responsible for those actions.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 04:22:09 AM by bUU »

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #179 on: July 19, 2013, 05:21:46 AM »
These people can refuse but then the FREE $$$$$ stops.
That's still punishing the child for the parent's actions.

This is really a critical question: Those who advocate against TANF in cases like this must admit, at least to themselves, what they would have society do. I've never seen an explanation that doesn't end up hurting the children - a morally offensive conclusion as far as I'm concerned, and certainly a violation of the principle that most opponents of TANF claim to hold dear, i.e., personal responsibility - holding the parent responsible for their own actions, not holding their children responsible for those actions.

and that is the crux of the problem!  the problem no one can figure out.  how does one punish the parent without hurting the kid?  unless homelife is truly shitty removing the child is probably traumatic, besides we don't have enough foster homes as it is.  cutting SNAP benefits and the like is just going to mean kids (who did nothing) are going to go hungry.  besides nc already tried sterilizing people http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WomensHealth/sterilizing-sick-poor-cut-welfare-costs-north-carolinas/story?id=14093458
and since that didn't work they tried paying people a dollar a day not to get pregnant while in school collectible when you enroll in college http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529037,00.html

ya know but then they cut the budget for the head start pre-k program in half. go lawmakers

grantmeaname

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #180 on: July 19, 2013, 05:23:26 AM »
ya know but then they cut the budget for the head start pre-k program in half. go lawmakers
That would be a terrible decision if there were any evidence that head start made any difference that didn't fade after a couple of years.

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #181 on: July 19, 2013, 05:39:36 AM »
ya know but then they cut the budget for the head start pre-k program in half. go lawmakers
That would be a terrible decision if there were any evidence that head start made any difference that didn't fade after a couple of years.
oh no it is a terrible decision.  k5 now assumes that you've had some sort of pre-k.  (not blasting teachers at all, all of my son's teachers work themselves to the bone and hate the new curriculum changes too) and its not just my state.  http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/03/15/1725841/head-start-sequestration/  about 70,000 kids the article states.
they don't just teach abc's anymore, in k5 they are starting to read like at month 1! with homework and spelling tests and stuff.  if you can't afford private pre-k your last chance was head start and now its budget is less.
and i don't want any trolling about how you can/should be teaching your kids yourself.  i am not a teacher, i am not gifted with a teaching spirit, that shit is hard.  i'm lucky i could afford to pay it because trying to do that myself would have made us both crazy.

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #182 on: July 19, 2013, 05:50:02 AM »
and that is the crux of the problem!  the problem no one can figure out.  how does one punish the parent without hurting the kid?
If we really cannot do both, then it boils down to which is more important: Benefiting the poor child, or benefiting those who want more comfort and luxury.

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #183 on: July 19, 2013, 05:59:15 AM »
and that is the crux of the problem!  the problem no one can figure out.  how does one punish the parent without hurting the kid?
If we really cannot do both, then it boils down to which is more important: Benefiting the poor child, or benefiting those who want more comfort and luxury.
obviously poor children imo.  i think where people get upset is that some people, lets use my niece for example, make conscious efforts to keep having kids.  it is aggravating and annoying me to that she is on her third kid at 19 because she "always wanted a big family"  that's great.  have them on purpose when you can afford them not just because you know the state will assist you.  granted she's not trying to make a profit at all, she's just subsidizing her lifestyle because she can.
crappy but i still want her to get that SNAP money because her kids gotta eat.  if she didn't get an increase then she'd have to buy less food. 
besides who am i to begrudge somebody some help, there but the grace of god and all that.....

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #184 on: July 19, 2013, 06:24:08 AM »
We really do need to make a decision vis a vis the "right" to have children, as a society, and then live with the decision. I think the right is pretty clear - if others disagree they should let their perspective be known, just like if they feel that the children should be punished because of their parents' actions. That's not to say either would legitimize either position, but those folks being honest and up-front about those things it surely would help cut through the bull of some of these discussions: People could then reply that they categorically disagree, and the discussion could progress from there, instead of all this nonsense that really stems from the fact that those who do hold those contrary positions don't publicly reveal the true motivations for their advocacy because they realize that those perspectives will be condemned out of hand by most, even those who agree with them with regard to what they want to happen more generally but haven't admitted to themselves the answers to these two questions.

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #185 on: July 19, 2013, 06:32:36 AM »
We really do need to make a decision vis a vis the "right" to have children, as a society, and then live with the decision. I think the right is pretty clear - if others disagree they should let their perspective be known, just like if they feel that the children should be punished because of their parents' actions. That's not to say either would legitimize either position, but those folks being honest and up-front about those things it surely would help cut through the bull of some of these discussions: People could then reply that they categorically disagree, and the discussion could progress from there, instead of all this nonsense that really stems from the fact that those who do hold those contrary positions don't publicly reveal the true motivations for their advocacy because they realize that those perspectives will be condemned out of hand by most, even those who agree with them with regard to what they want to happen more generally but haven't admitted to themselves the answers to these two questions.
true.  and my opinions totally contradict themselves.  i don't think you have a "right" to have children, as in i can't afford them but i'm gonna have them anyways dammit because i love them (aka my niece).  i'm not talking about accidents, or bc failures i'm talking about blantant knock me up scenarios. (which granted are hard to prove)  no i don't think you get to have more kids just because you want them and i should help pay for them.  and since no one can actually definitively say who did and did not get pregnant on purpose obviously you can't have a law about the "right" to have kids.  but i do think people make some pretty morally questionable decisions.
but on the other hand, since you did have them dammit i'm not going to let them go hungry and without medical care.  but could you buy some fucking condoms already?  here let me give them to you. 

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #186 on: July 19, 2013, 08:17:12 AM »
i don't think you have a "right" to have children

It's a fundamental human right.

Yes, it can be a poor decision, and it can create difficulty, but it's still a right. I can't believe that this is even a discussion.

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #187 on: July 19, 2013, 08:26:43 AM »
i don't think you have a "right" to have children

It's a fundamental human right.

Yes, it can be a poor decision, and it can create difficulty, but it's still a right. I can't believe that this is even a discussion.

agree to disagree. just because you don't agree with my opinion doesn't make it any less valid than yours.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #188 on: July 19, 2013, 08:36:38 AM »
I didn't say anything about it's validity, but in my opinion, your opinion is a chilling and dangerous affront to personal freedom.

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #189 on: July 19, 2013, 08:43:59 AM »
I didn't say anything about it's validity, but in my opinion, your opinion is a chilling and dangerous affront to personal freedom.
and i'm okay with you having that opinion.  you quoted a part of my statement which i feel took it out of context and was the whole reason i have the word right in quotes.  the entire sentence says this i don't think you have a "right" to have children, as in i can't afford them but i'm gonna have them anyways dammit because i love them in reference to the whole benefits/punishing parents/not punishing kids.  i still stand by you shouldn't have kids you can't afford and then expect government assistance, it isn't "right" and it shouldn't be something you should be able to do just because you have the "right" to do so.
but like i said people are going to do it anyways and i'm not trying to punish the kids, they didn't do anything.  you can't punish the parent without hurting the kid

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #190 on: July 19, 2013, 08:46:18 AM »
It's a fundamental human right.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

If you disagree with any of that, then be prepared to have your own claim about what is and is not a fundamental human right refuted with your own words.

(To be clear: I agree with you that having children is a fundamental human right - but along with all these other things.)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 08:47:52 AM by bUU »

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #191 on: July 19, 2013, 08:48:08 AM »
It's a fundamental human right.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
what does this say, my work blocks the weirdest things sometimes.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #192 on: July 19, 2013, 08:50:36 AM »
and i'm okay with you having that opinion.  you quoted a part of my statement which i feel took it out of context and was the whole reason i have the word right in quotes.  the entire sentence says this i don't think you have a "right" to have children, as in i can't afford them but i'm gonna have them anyways dammit because i love them in reference to the whole benefits/punishing parents/not punishing kids.  i still stand by you shouldn't have kids you can't afford and then expect government assistance, it isn't "right" and it shouldn't be something you should be able to do just because you have the "right" to do so.
but like i said people are going to do it anyways and i'm not trying to punish the kids, they didn't do anything.  you can't punish the parent without hurting the kid

I know what the full sentence said, and none of that changed the fundamental right, IMO. Saying that we have the right to restrict funding after kid number "x" is NOT the same thing as forcing them not to have any more children. The former doesn't violate the fundamental right; the latter does.

(The only thing that should prevent the fundamental right to procreate, as I said elsewhere, is habitual sexual assault. Obviously, a man would not have the right to impregnate women without their consent. And if they can't learn that, we can force it on them.)

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #193 on: July 19, 2013, 08:52:45 AM »
It's the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the most widely recognize statement of what is "fundamental human rights". Everything else is just personal opinion.

It includes this:
Quote
Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
It also includes many other provisions that the previous poster may find difficult to accept, but (and this is my point) in for a penny, in for a pound.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #194 on: July 19, 2013, 08:53:16 AM »
It's a fundamental human right.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

If you disagree with any of that, then be prepared to have your own claim about what is and is not a fundamental human right refuted with your own words.

(To be clear: I agree with you that having children is a fundamental human right - but along with all these other things.)

I do disagree with some of that, as I don't believe fundamental human rights are bestowed by other humans. But that's a different can of worms, IMO.

And, of course, having children isn't the only fundamental human right.

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #195 on: July 19, 2013, 08:55:54 AM »
and i'm okay with you having that opinion.  you quoted a part of my statement which i feel took it out of context and was the whole reason i have the word right in quotes.  the entire sentence says this i don't think you have a "right" to have children, as in i can't afford them but i'm gonna have them anyways dammit because i love them in reference to the whole benefits/punishing parents/not punishing kids.  i still stand by you shouldn't have kids you can't afford and then expect government assistance, it isn't "right" and it shouldn't be something you should be able to do just because you have the "right" to do so.
but like i said people are going to do it anyways and i'm not trying to punish the kids, they didn't do anything.  you can't punish the parent without hurting the kid


I know what the full sentence said, and none of that changed the fundamental right, IMO. Saying that we have the right to restrict funding after kid number "x" is NOT the same thing as forcing them not to have any more children. The former doesn't violate the fundamental right; the latter does.

(The only thing that should prevent the fundamental right to procreate, as I said elsewhere, is habitual sexual assault. Obviously, a man would not have the right to impregnate women without their consent. And if they can't learn that, we can force it on them.)
i didn't say anything about restricting funding.  i realize others with my opinion might feel that you should restrict funding, but i was simply stating that i personally don't think its a right.  that doesn't mean i want to stop funding it or sterilizing people, i even said you obviously can't make laws about the "right" to have children.
my opinion is its not a right its a want.  and wants are cool sometimes.  i realize this differs from your opinion.  tomayto, tamahto.

bUU

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #196 on: July 19, 2013, 08:56:41 AM »
I do disagree with some of that, as I don't believe fundamental human rights are bestowed by other humans. But that's a different can of worms, IMO.

And, of course, having children isn't the only fundamental human right.
So as I feared: You're trying to say that fundamental human rights are what you personally dictate.

Sorry, no sale.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #197 on: July 19, 2013, 09:00:46 AM »
i didn't say anything about restricting funding.  i realize others with my opinion might feel that you should restrict funding, but i was simply stating that i personally don't think its a right.  that doesn't mean i want to stop funding it or sterilizing people, i even said you obviously can't make laws about the "right" to have children.
my opinion is its not a right its a want.  and wants are cool sometimes.  i realize this differs from your opinion.  tomayto, tamahto.

Bottom line:

Having children is a basic fundamental right (which can be taken away only in extreme cases of habitual offenders of the rights of others).

Having children intentionally with an expectation of additional public assistance to pay for it (beyond assistance available to all children, such as public education) is NOT  fundamental right.

I don't think we're that far off from each other, although I gotta admit I'm not certain I understand entirely what the real core of your argument is.

renbutler

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #198 on: July 19, 2013, 09:02:00 AM »
So as I feared: You're trying to say that fundamental human rights are what you personally dictate.

Ha, what? LOL

That's actually the complete opposite of what I'm saying.

Please show me where I said that I get to bestow fundamental human rights. And then I'll point out where I said that fundamental rights are not bestowed by other humans.

Come on, no more games, please.

ace1224

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Re: I Hate Paying School Taxes When I Have No Kids...
« Reply #199 on: July 19, 2013, 09:08:04 AM »
i didn't say anything about restricting funding.  i realize others with my opinion might feel that you should restrict funding, but i was simply stating that i personally don't think its a right.  that doesn't mean i want to stop funding it or sterilizing people, i even said you obviously can't make laws about the "right" to have children.
my opinion is its not a right its a want.  and wants are cool sometimes.  i realize this differs from your opinion.  tomayto, tamahto.

Bottom line:

Having children is a basic fundamental right (which can be taken away only in extreme cases of habitual offenders of the rights of others).

Having children intentionally with an expectation of additional public assistance to pay for it (beyond assistance available to all children, such as public education) is NOT  fundamental right.

I don't think we're that far off from each other, although I gotta admit I'm not certain I understand entirely what the real core of your argument is.
its not meant to be an argument.  i'm not trying to sway you to my side.  my opinion on having children (regardless of what the un says) is that it is a want and not a right. 
obviously you won't be voting for me if i ever run for president lol

 

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