Author Topic: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.  (Read 15318 times)

sol

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how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« on: November 15, 2016, 11:57:33 AM »
I'm desperately trying to find a silver lining in a Trump presidency.  He's already divided America by playing to racial divisions, threatened to amplify climate change as much as possible, talked about how much he loves illegal torture and murdering the civilian families of suspected enemy combatants, blatantly disregarded the US Constitution with a proposed ban on a specific religion, and betrayed his own campaign rhetoric about cleaning up Washington insider politics by hiring the dirtiest Washington insiders he can find.

But what about the wall?  Lots of people here have voiced support of a physical barrier on the southern US border as both a literal way to divide people further and a symbolic expression of their desire to keep immigrants out of the country.  I think it's a dumb idea, physically impractical to build, enormously costly to maintain, and totally ineffective at reducing illegal immigration.

With that said, I'm still trying to find any hint of honesty in his proposals and policies, and I think I know how to make Mexico pay for this particular horrible idea.  The Mexican federal government will never write Uncle Sam a check, of course, but we can probably find ways to force Mexico to incur costs that America currently covers, just because we are big and powerful and they are not, and the powerful can always bully the weak.

For example, there is significant cooperation between US and Mexican border patrol forces.  When we capture illegal immigrants coming across the southern border, we process them and lock them up in detention facilities while we figure out where to send them.  This costs us money, regardless of what country the immigrants come from.  These people came to America seeking freedom and opportunity, or fled from violence and oppression in their home countries, but we don't need to offer them an expensive prison cell.  We could instead institute an 8 hour window for transport back across the Mexican border.  Just open the gate and shove those little kids through, turning them all loose in the same city block in Juarez.  No paperwork, no detention, just a taxi ride by armed federal agents.  Mexico would have to figure out what to do with them, which in practice is probably to hope they disappear into the slums before trying to cross the border again.

How else could we penalize Mexico in the name of "paying for the wall"?  The US currently spends several hundred million dollars per year on the Merida Initiative, a cooperative international crime-fighting plan designed to combat drug cartels.  We help Mexico go after drug kingpins, we seize cartel financial assets, we fight against corruption in the Mexican government that lets drug cartels buy their way out of trouble.  We fly aircraft along the border looking for drug smugglers.  All of that could stop, and Trump could claim he was "transferring those costs" to Mexico.  In reality, Mexico can't do any of that on its own and we would just be making the border drug war worse, not better.  But Trump could say he was "making Mexico pay for the wall" by reducing US expenditures on border security, and this would seem to be right in line with much of the rest of his policy initiatives.  Ignorance is Strength, sayeth Big Brother.

Let's see, those two things don't nearly cover the cost of the wall all by themselves.  How else can we we make Mexico pay?  We currently send money to the UN as part of our international nonproliferation efforts, to slow the spread of nuclear weapons.  Mexico is a partner in those efforts.  We could stop funding those programs at the UN, and say it was because they were a benefit to Mexico that Trump is taking back to help pay for the wall.  The result would be more nukes in more countries, but hey at least we'd have that big beautiful wall to keep us safe.

What about trade?  NAFTA removed most tariffs on goods made in Mexico, so repealing it would allow Trump to slap a 50% tax on everything crossing the border.  That's a YUGE amount of money to help pay for wall!  Of course, most of these goods are assembled in Mexico by US companies who moved their factories there to avoid paying for US environmental and worker protection laws, so this is effectively a new business tax on US corporations but I don't think that would stop Trump from saying he was "making Mexico pay".  It also overlooks the reciprocal tariffs that Mexico would restore on US goods, which could be ANOTHER 50% tax on US corporations.  Trade liberalization was a huge benefit to capitalism in all three countries, and returning to the age of protectionist trade policies doesn't really make any sense in the modern global economy, the way it might have after WWII when the US had most of the world's remaining intact manufacturing capacity.

NAFTA is a complicated topic with lots of provisions, but after 25 years the net impact has been undeniably positive for US corporations, and arguably negative for US workers.  With only slight rhetorical gymnastics, I think Trump could claim that penalizing US companies who use robots to assemble cars in Mexico was all part of his plan to "make Mexico pay for the wall."

So to summarize:  reduce border enforcement, stop fighting the drug cartels, abandon nonproliferation efforts, and tax US corporations.  That should just about cover the cost of a new wall, which won't keep out illegal immigrants, won't stop the flow of drugs, won't make us more secure, and will cost US businesses money, all in the name of making Mexico pay for it.


chesebert

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2016, 12:06:23 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

The Trump administration will need to figure out how to do this without tripping the 14th amendment and Civil Rights Act - I am sure this can be done, but needs some thinking.

I think we can build and maintain the wall for $2.5 billion. What do you think?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 12:15:20 PM by chesebert »

Heywood57

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2016, 12:17:28 PM »

According to GAO’s analysis of the World Bank’s Bilateral Remittance Matrix, in 2014,
about $25 billion was sent to Mexico,
some $15 billion was sent to China,
over $10 billion sent to India,
and about $10 billion went to the Philippines.
Other top receiving countries included Vietnam, Nigeria, Guatemala, El Salvador, Dominican Republic and Korea.


http://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/bilateral-remittance-flows

GuitarStv

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2016, 12:17:44 PM »
Rather than a wall, why not focus on a really big moat?  Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona get thousands of extra miles of seafront properties on their new coast.  It would have to be wide enough for cruise boats to traverse so that the old folks in Florida can go directly to Hawaii and Alaska.  If wide enough, after proper stocking for a few years a whole new fishing industry could spring up.

I mean, sure, it's a dumb idea . . . but people hate walls, they're ugly they require maintenance, etc.  At least people would get some use out of a moat.

former player

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2016, 12:23:45 PM »
By all means make the 64th richest country by GDP give money to the 11th richest by GDP.  That's really going to help Mexico improve its economy and its internal security and make it less likely that people will want to cross the border unlawfully.

And while you are at it, make sure that you blame Mexico for drug problems created entirely by the millions of US citizens who buy illegal drugs with no regard for the misery and death they are paying for along with their addiction.

Metric Mouse

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 12:32:55 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

Not sure who is sending money back, but this does have the advantages of being legal and there is precedent from the Obama administration for taxing this money. SO maybe the USA should do it anyway, if nothing else to shore up our budget.

bacchi

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2016, 12:37:33 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

The Trump administration will need to figure out how to do this without tripping the 14th amendment and Civil Rights Act - I am sure this can be done, but needs some thinking.

I think we can build and maintain the wall for $2.5 billion. What do you think?

You're joking, right? The border is 2000 miles long.

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2016, 12:41:10 PM »

And while you are at it, make sure that you blame Mexico for drug problems created entirely by the millions of US citizens who buy illegal drugs with no regard for the misery and death they are paying for along with their addiction.

Not a Trump policy (nor a Clinton policy), but I would legalize marijuana in the US and remove a source of cartel revenue.  That would eliminate mj smuggling from the southern border and allow us to focus on illegal immigration and smuggling of hard drugs at the southern border.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 12:43:09 PM by Midwest »

Sparafusile

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2016, 12:45:35 PM »
Guys, you don't understand! The wall will happen because Trump says it will. Our president elect has never failed at anything in his life. He will sit down with the Mexican prime minister and just explain that we are no longer taking his undesirables. There weren't any rapists or drugs in the country before the Mexicans started crossing our border and, in order to make the country great again, we have to get rid of them. All of them! As an added bonus, the unemployed people in this great country will finally get the back breaking, migratory farm jobs they want. I give you my word, this will happen and it will happen soon. It's going to be a beautiful wall and our country will be wonderful. Trust me.

scantee

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2016, 12:49:43 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

The Trump administration will need to figure out how to do this without tripping the 14th amendment and Civil Rights Act - I am sure this can be done, but needs some thinking.

I think we can build and maintain the wall for $2.5 billion. What do you think?



I truly cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not, I assume it is, but I'll respond as if it is not.

So now the argument apparently is: don't deport all those illegal aliens (because they do jobs that others don't want and they contribute to the economy) so instead, administer an entirely new and expensive bureaucratic program to identify them, and apply a special tax on their income (which we consider illegally gained in the first place) all while threatening to deport them, but not actually doing it, so that we can build a wall that will make a certain segment of the population that is motivated primarily by fear feel safe, without actually making any difference in the actual rate of immigration whatsoever?

Got it.

Why not convert the entire area to a Hunger Games-style arena where every week we let a certain number of Mexicans in and allow them to fight to the death and then we let the last one living into our country? Since we've gotten to the point where it's considered a-ok to suggest the most maximally sadistic policy solutions we can think up, we might as well go all out with our wall solution. A final solution, some might say, to our immigration problem.

sol

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2016, 12:51:29 PM »
I think we can build and maintain the wall for $2.5 billion. What do you think?

You're joking, right? The border is 2000 miles long.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure president Trump is going to be the contractor who submits the lowest bid to build the wall, in response to the legally required call for bids that president Trump will make.  It will of course have huge cost overruns, he'll stiff all of his subcontractors, and then his construction company will declare bankruptcy after paying him a billion dollar executive bonus.  It's not like he doesn't have a track record with this sort of thing.

Oh he'll try to mask it by saying his children are running his company, I'm sure, but this would be the single largest government contract ever awarded and I'm not sure he can pass up an opportunity like that. 

A final solution, some might say, to our immigration problem.

Oooh, nice.  Steve Bannon will love that!

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2016, 01:03:07 PM »

So now the argument apparently is: don't deport all those illegal aliens (because they do jobs that others don't want and they contribute to the economy) so instead, administer an entirely new and expensive bureaucratic program to identify them, and apply a special tax on their income (which we consider illegally gained in the first place) all while threatening to deport them, but not actually doing it, so that we can build a wall that will make a certain segment of the population that is motivated primarily by fear feel safe, without actually making any difference in the actual rate of immigration whatsoever?


Without arguing the practicality or expense of building the wall, do you have  a source that walls don't work?  I've seen conflicting reports.

With regard to low wage jobs, absent competition from workers operating under the table, it would seem wages in those areas might rise.  In addition, I would be all for modifying the law so that necessary workers (migrant farm workers come to mind) could work in the US LEGALLY.

scantee

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2016, 01:14:34 PM »

So now the argument apparently is: don't deport all those illegal aliens (because they do jobs that others don't want and they contribute to the economy) so instead, administer an entirely new and expensive bureaucratic program to identify them, and apply a special tax on their income (which we consider illegally gained in the first place) all while threatening to deport them, but not actually doing it, so that we can build a wall that will make a certain segment of the population that is motivated primarily by fear feel safe, without actually making any difference in the actual rate of immigration whatsoever?



Without arguing the practicality or expense of building the wall, do you have  a source that walls don't work?  I've seen conflicting reports.

With regard to low wage jobs, absent competition from workers operating under the table, it would seem wages in those areas might rise.  In addition, I would be all for modifying the law so that necessary workers (migrant farm workers come to mind) could work in the US LEGALLY.


Because we live in modern times and not the middle ages. People will just go under (through tunnels), around (by boat) or over (by plane) until they find a way through, which they inevitably will.

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2016, 01:19:57 PM »

So now the argument apparently is: don't deport all those illegal aliens (because they do jobs that others don't want and they contribute to the economy) so instead, administer an entirely new and expensive bureaucratic program to identify them, and apply a special tax on their income (which we consider illegally gained in the first place) all while threatening to deport them, but not actually doing it, so that we can build a wall that will make a certain segment of the population that is motivated primarily by fear feel safe, without actually making any difference in the actual rate of immigration whatsoever?



Without arguing the practicality or expense of building the wall, do you have  a source that walls don't work?  I've seen conflicting reports.

With regard to low wage jobs, absent competition from workers operating under the table, it would seem wages in those areas might rise.  In addition, I would be all for modifying the law so that necessary workers (migrant farm workers come to mind) could work in the US LEGALLY.


Because we live in modern times and not the middle ages. People will just go under (through tunnels), around (by boat) or over (by plane) until they find a way through, which they inevitably will.

Forcing people to dig tunnels, obtain boats or pay airfare would seem to slow the tide.  No one expects a wall would be 100% effective, but it would dramatically slow the flow. 

I'm not sure it's the right answer, but I don't think you can offhand dismiss that it might slow the flow.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 01:21:54 PM by Midwest »

OurTown

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2016, 01:20:39 PM »
Guys, you don't understand! The wall will happen because Trump says it will. Our president elect has never failed at anything in his life. He will sit down with the Mexican prime minister and just explain that we are no longer taking his undesirables. There weren't any rapists or drugs in the country before the Mexicans started crossing our border and, in order to make the country great again, we have to get rid of them. All of them! As an added bonus, the unemployed people in this great country will finally get the back breaking, migratory farm jobs they want. I give you my word, this will happen and it will happen soon. It's going to be a beautiful wall and our country will be wonderful. Trust me.

Won't all the ice melt?  Can we send all the Millennials to join the Night's Watch?

Kris

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2016, 01:22:16 PM »
How to get Mexico to pay for the wall?

Make things so bad in the U.S. that they'll build it themselves, to keep us from fleeing south.

He's a genius, that Donald Trump.

onlykelsey

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2016, 01:23:50 PM »
How to get Mexico to pay for the wall?

Make things so bad in the U.S. that they'll build it themselves, to keep us from fleeing south.

He's a genius, that Donald Trump.

Ha. Maybe Canada should start building one on its southern border.

Jack

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2016, 01:26:57 PM »
Rather than a wall, why not focus on a really big moat?  Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona get thousands of extra miles of seafront properties on their new coast.  It would have to be wide enough for cruise boats to traverse so that the old folks in Florida can go directly to Hawaii and Alaska.  If wide enough, after proper stocking for a few years a whole new fishing industry could spring up.

I mean, sure, it's a dumb idea . . . but people hate walls, they're ugly they require maintenance, etc.  At least people would get some use out of a moat.

We have that already; it's called the Rio Grande. That's why there exists a derogatory term for Mexicans that refers to them swimming across.

Northwestie

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2016, 01:29:03 PM »
We already have a wall in many places, a whole pile of border agents, drones, helicopters, motion detectors and cameras.  It is never going to be able to stop 100% of the movement. 

It's a cost-benefit thing - and we can probably put our money to better use elsewhere.  Simple minds think of simple solutions.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/21/19062298-price-tag-for-700-miles-of-border-fencing-high-and-hard-to-pin-down?lite


OurTown

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2016, 01:29:51 PM »
Rather than a wall, why not focus on a really big moat?  Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona get thousands of extra miles of seafront properties on their new coast.  It would have to be wide enough for cruise boats to traverse so that the old folks in Florida can go directly to Hawaii and Alaska.  If wide enough, after proper stocking for a few years a whole new fishing industry could spring up.

I mean, sure, it's a dumb idea . . . but people hate walls, they're ugly they require maintenance, etc.  At least people would get some use out of a moat.

We have that already; it's called the Rio Grande. That's why there exists a derogatory term for Mexicans that refers to them swimming across.

So, this was a real thing:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

former player

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2016, 01:50:56 PM »
Without arguing the practicality or expense of building the wall, do you have  a source that walls don't work?  I've seen conflicting reports.

The Berlin Wall worked pretty well.  You do of course have to be prepared to set mines along the whole length, and have watchtowers from which the sentries shoot to kill.  You also have to stop pretty much all trade and all movement of people.

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2016, 02:02:51 PM »
Without arguing the practicality or expense of building the wall, do you have  a source that walls don't work?  I've seen conflicting reports.

The Berlin Wall worked pretty well.  You do of course have to be prepared to set mines along the whole length, and have watchtowers from which the sentries shoot to kill.  You also have to stop pretty much all trade and all movement of people.

No one is arguing cutting off trade with Mexico (even repealing NAFTA wouldn't do this) nor putting up mines and shooting innocents so a comparison to the Berlin wall is inaccurate.  I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't slow the influx.  That doesn't mean it's a good idea (that's open for debate) or the cost/benefit is in it's favor, but you are arguing emphatically that it wouldn't work and I'm not certain that's the case.

If I were Trump (who now has both the senate and the house), I would make it easier for immigrants we need/want to work here and increase enforcement going forward against the employers/employees working illegally. 

If the laws are bad, let's change them rather than selectively enforcing them.

Northwestie

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2016, 02:12:53 PM »
Good luck.  One instance - under Bush there was some movement to force employers to certify that their workers were legal and increase the enforcement.  That was squashed pretty quick by Charles Grassley, the senior senator from Iowa once it became obvious that the slaughter houses in his state would be on the front line. 

The proposal died a quick death.

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2016, 02:20:57 PM »
Good luck.  One instance - under Bush there was some movement to force employers to certify that their workers were legal and increase the enforcement.  That was squashed pretty quick by Charles Grassley, the senior senator from Iowa once it became obvious that the slaughter houses in his state would be on the front line. 

The proposal died a quick death.

Trump has the power at this point, this is an area he could do some good in.  Selective enforcement is good for no one. 

We had a local company hiring illegal immigrants.  They decided to make an example of the company's owner (never mind that many others were doing the same thing).  Seized assets and were in the process of jailing the owner when the owner committed suicide.

I'm not arguing the owner was right, but selective enforcement of laws is even worse. 

BTW - I remember the Grassley story and your facts are generally correct.  I was disgusted by the lack of courage.

Northwestie

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2016, 02:23:06 PM »
If nothing else this will be interesting.  Trump talked big on this - campaign bluster?  Will Congress come along?  Don't know.

Kris

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2016, 02:23:25 PM »
Good luck.  One instance - under Bush there was some movement to force employers to certify that their workers were legal and increase the enforcement.  That was squashed pretty quick by Charles Grassley, the senior senator from Iowa once it became obvious that the slaughter houses in his state would be on the front line. 

The proposal died a quick death.

Trump has the power at this point, this is an area he could do some good in.  Selective enforcement is good for no one. 


Except he won't do this, because he is one of those employers.

tct

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2016, 02:24:40 PM »
Quote
So to summarize:  reduce border enforcement, stop fighting the drug cartels, abandon nonproliferation efforts, and tax US corporations.  That should just about cover the cost of a new wall, which won't keep out illegal immigrants, won't stop the flow of drugs, won't make us more secure, and will cost US businesses money, all in the name of making Mexico pay for it.

A wall will surely slow down the flow of drugs. I spoke first hand to a border patrol agent in southern California after being pulled over on my ATV for riding too close to the newly constructed border wall/fence. I asked if the wall made any difference. He stated that before the wall went up, there were vehicles carrying drugs crossing almost daily. Since the construction of the wall, they have nothing to do.

acroy

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2016, 02:29:51 PM »
But what about the wall?  Lots of people here have voiced support of a physical barrier on the southern US border as both a literal way to divide people further and a symbolic expression of their desire to keep immigrants out of the country.  I think it's a dumb idea, physically impractical to build, enormously costly to maintain, and totally ineffective at reducing illegal immigration.

Wow, there must be a lot of jerks on here. That's sad. Glad I don't run into many of them.

- A nation without control of it's borders is by definition not a nation.
- there's huge-ass structures and systems on the border already, apparently not entirely effective. Google earth view is interesting.
- An effective barrier can be a combination of structure and surveillance, as it is now.
- Take a look at badass walls in China, GB (Hadrians' wall to keep out the pesky Scots) and modern day Gaza.
- Funding is easy, here are 2 easy options 1) tax on the $25B/yr flowing into mexico from migrants (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271455/Revealed-How-immigrants-America-sending-120-BILLION-struggling-families-home.html) 2) tax on imports. Those are just 2 low-hanging fruits.

Side comment - several Canadian co-workers in the office this week. As one of them eloquently stated, the Canadian national sport is to criticize USA but they're sure glad we're between them and Mexico and the only other border they have is with... ocean.

Immigration reform is another rich topic. We could stand to improve there.

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2016, 02:30:47 PM »
Good luck.  One instance - under Bush there was some movement to force employers to certify that their workers were legal and increase the enforcement.  That was squashed pretty quick by Charles Grassley, the senior senator from Iowa once it became obvious that the slaughter houses in his state would be on the front line. 

The proposal died a quick death.

Trump has the power at this point, this is an area he could do some good in.  Selective enforcement is good for no one. 


Except he won't do this, because he is one of those employers.

He may have been in the past.  It's tough to be in business where many are breaking the law and you are following it.

That's why selective enforcement is bad.  Let's announce a policy going forward and enforce it.

onlykelsey

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2016, 02:32:06 PM »
Good luck.  One instance - under Bush there was some movement to force employers to certify that their workers were legal and increase the enforcement.  That was squashed pretty quick by Charles Grassley, the senior senator from Iowa once it became obvious that the slaughter houses in his state would be on the front line. 

The proposal died a quick death.

Trump has the power at this point, this is an area he could do some good in.  Selective enforcement is good for no one. 


Except he won't do this, because he is one of those employers.

He may have been in the past.  It's tough to be in business where many are breaking the law and you are following it.

That's why selective enforcement is bad.  Let's announce a policy going forward and enforce it.

He's made very clear that he wants to stay involved in all of his businesses, though.  See his resistance to blind trusts in favor of giving control to his children, which was off base enough already.  Now that he wants his kids so heavily involved in the administration, the conflict of interest is huge.

Apples

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2016, 02:32:17 PM »
A wall won't stop people who can get on a plane and overstay their tourist visa.  It will stop drugs and other contraband items more effectively, since they can't drive through a wall.  I'm also assuming a lot more people will go around by boat.

If they do try to do this, hasn't Trump proposed raising the prices on immigration visas to help fund it?  Well, H-2A workers' visas are paid by U.S. employers, as are many others I'm sure.

Also, we hire migrant labor for seasonal apple picking.  $11/hr or so (some guys make $18), depending on how fast you pick, for 12-20 weeks, for 50 hrs/week if you're looking for work.  Pay over the table.  Everyone shows a permanent resident card and social security card.  H-2A would be slightly more expensive, but not much.

Kris

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2016, 02:35:17 PM »
Good luck.  One instance - under Bush there was some movement to force employers to certify that their workers were legal and increase the enforcement.  That was squashed pretty quick by Charles Grassley, the senior senator from Iowa once it became obvious that the slaughter houses in his state would be on the front line. 

The proposal died a quick death.

Trump has the power at this point, this is an area he could do some good in.  Selective enforcement is good for no one. 


Except he won't do this, because he is one of those employers.

He may have been in the past.  It's tough to be in business where many are breaking the law and you are following it.

That's why selective enforcement is bad. Let's announce a policy going forward and enforce it.

I'm all for that. But again, it will not happen under a Trump presidency. He's not going to announce a policy that penalizes employers.

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2016, 02:39:59 PM »
Good luck.  One instance - under Bush there was some movement to force employers to certify that their workers were legal and increase the enforcement.  That was squashed pretty quick by Charles Grassley, the senior senator from Iowa once it became obvious that the slaughter houses in his state would be on the front line. 

The proposal died a quick death.

Trump has the power at this point, this is an area he could do some good in.  Selective enforcement is good for no one. 


Except he won't do this, because he is one of those employers.

He may have been in the past.  It's tough to be in business where many are breaking the law and you are following it.

That's why selective enforcement is bad. Let's announce a policy going forward and enforce it.

Trump has a higher likelihood of doing it than Clinton would have.

I'm all for that. But again, it will not happen under a Trump presidency. He's not going to announce a policy that penalizes employers.

jim555

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2016, 02:42:09 PM »
If they do try to do this, hasn't Trump proposed raising the prices on immigration visas to help fund it?  Well, H-2A workers' visas are paid by U.S. employers, as are many others I'm sure.
Once Mexico reciprocates the visa charge to Americans I won't be able to afford to go to Mexico for retirement.  BAD IDEA.

jim555

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2016, 02:44:31 PM »
Overstayed visas are the main way immigrants come in.  A wall is dumb.

gimp

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2016, 02:46:00 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

The Trump administration will need to figure out how to do this without tripping the 14th amendment and Civil Rights Act - I am sure this can be done, but needs some thinking.

I think we can build and maintain the wall for $2.5 billion. What do you think?

1. I have no idea how you made the leap that people sending money to their family in mexico are illegal aliens.

2. I have no idea why you think a wall spanning over a thousand miles can be built and maintained for $2.5 billion dollars. Unless you mean a chain link fence, of course.

Kris

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2016, 02:46:21 PM »

Trump has a higher likelihood of doing it than Clinton would have.


Huh. I don't know. I don't really see that, actually. I can see Clinton accepting employer penalties as part of a larger immigration reform package. She's said as much. It seems like a no-brainer, if you actually want sensible reform.

I'm a red panda

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2016, 02:49:56 PM »
Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!


And legal immigrants. And US citizens with extended family in Mexico.

I'm guessing that you don't work with a lot of immigrants if you feel like the only ones who have a remittance situation with folks back home are illegal. There are entire countries whose home economy is almost entirely based on remittance.

dougules

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2016, 03:06:59 PM »
If we make Mexico hate us enough, they'll build the wall to keep US out.  Trump never said that the razor wire on top would be pointed South. 

Lunasol

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2016, 04:03:44 PM »
Disclaimer: I have never crossed the boarder illegally, nor do I ever plan to do so.

I am deeply hurt by all of the sarcastic posts on this thread. There are mexican citizens browsing this message board, you know?

In behalf of all illegal immigrants in US, I am sorry they have hurt your economy by fleeing our country. I'm sure somehow it's been beneficial, but it's difficult to put into numbers the cost or benefit of the immigration movement that's been happening for the last 60ish years.

Again, as a mexican citizen, I am hurt to hear that so many people are supporting this wall thing: it's degrading, insulting, belittling, to those of us who have abided by the US law at all times.

MasterStache

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2016, 04:36:00 PM »
Disclaimer: I have never crossed the boarder illegally, nor do I ever plan to do so.

I am deeply hurt by all of the sarcastic posts on this thread. There are mexican citizens browsing this message board, you know?

In behalf of all illegal immigrants in US, I am sorry they have hurt your economy by fleeing our country. I'm sure somehow it's been beneficial, but it's difficult to put into numbers the cost or benefit of the immigration movement that's been happening for the last 60ish years.

Again, as a mexican citizen, I am hurt to hear that so many people are supporting this wall thing: it's degrading, insulting, belittling, to those of us who have abided by the US law at all times.

I don't speak for everyone but I believe many of us here don't support it (including myself). Believing it's a waste of money and resources that could be better put to use elsewhere.

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2016, 04:38:38 PM »

Trump has a higher likelihood of doing it than Clinton would have.


Huh. I don't know. I don't really see that, actually. I can see Clinton accepting employer penalties as part of a larger immigration reform package. She's said as much. It seems like a no-brainer, if you actually want sensible reform.

Clinton said she would continue Obama policies.  My impression was Obama wanted amnesty.  In addition,Obama had 8 years (2 of which democrats controlled congress) to get something done.  The democrats haven't moved against the employers or the employees in a substantial manner.

If Trump wants to control immigration as he says he does, he'll have to deal with the employers as well.

Midwest

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2016, 04:53:32 PM »
Disclaimer: I have never crossed the boarder illegally, nor do I ever plan to do so.

I am deeply hurt by all of the sarcastic posts on this thread. There are mexican citizens browsing this message board, you know?

In behalf of all illegal immigrants in US, I am sorry they have hurt your economy by fleeing our country. I'm sure somehow it's been beneficial, but it's difficult to put into numbers the cost or benefit of the immigration movement that's been happening for the last 60ish years.

Again, as a mexican citizen, I am hurt to hear that so many people are supporting this wall thing: it's degrading, insulting, belittling, to those of us who have abided by the US law at all times.

Lunasol - The United states has an estimated 6.65M illegal immigrants from Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States).  In addition to the Mexican citizens in the US illegally, we have El Salvadorans, Guatemalans, and Hondurans coming through Mexico.  This doesn't include the children of this population born in the US (who are considered US citizens once born on US soil). 

I (and most Americans) don't have an issue with Mexico or Mexican citizens, but the US has the right to control immigration into this country just as Mexico does.  Many of these people are simply looking for a better opportunity, but we are a nation of laws and immigration laws are part of that package (as they are in your country as well).

We have previously given millions of illegal immigrants citizenship during the 1980's, now we have nearly 10M more people here illegally.

If millions of Americans were illegally entering Mexico, would that be OK?  My suspicion is no considering the issues and thoughts on Mexico's southern border  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3790116/Mexico-wants-build-border-wall-Central-America-illegal-immigrants.html

As an aside, the US is frequently cited as the source of firearms in Mexico.  Wouldn't stringent border control help that as well?

chesebert

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2016, 05:05:10 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

The Trump administration will need to figure out how to do this without tripping the 14th amendment and Civil Rights Act - I am sure this can be done, but needs some thinking.

I think we can build and maintain the wall for $2.5 billion. What do you think?

You're joking, right? The border is 2000 miles long.
That's 2.5 billion per year.

chesebert

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2016, 05:15:42 PM »
Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!


And legal immigrants. And US citizens with extended family in Mexico.

I'm guessing that you don't work with a lot of immigrants if you feel like the only ones who have a remittance situation with folks back home are illegal. There are entire countries whose home economy is almost entirely based on remittance.
Illegal aliens are more likely to remit money as and when they can rather than keeping money in the US. I am sure someone has done the study on remittance by illegal aliens in the US.

bwall

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2016, 05:19:05 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

What about US companies who buy goods in Mexico for export to Asia and Europe, such as mine? Do they have to pay the 5% tax also? How do you exclude the legitimate companies' wire transfers from .... the people you want to tax? And then how do you keep those people from circumventing the tax?

Here's the thing about Mexican's who work here and send money home; they have exchanged their labor for that money. Their labor stays in the USA in the form of... whatever they did; construction, restaurant work, cleaning, etc. They workers get USD which they will either spend in the USA or send to Mexico, to be spent there on goods that may have been produced in the USA. It's all one big circle.

chesebert

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2016, 05:25:53 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

What about US companies who buy goods in Mexico for export to Asia and Europe, such as mine? Do they have to pay the 5% tax also? How do you exclude the legitimate companies' wire transfers from .... the people you want to tax? And then how do you keep those people from circumventing the tax?

Here's the thing about Mexican's who work here and send money home; they have exchanged their labor for that money. Their labor stays in the USA in the form of... whatever they did; construction, restaurant work, cleaning, etc. They workers get USD which they will either spend in the USA or send to Mexico, to be spent there on goods that may have been produced in the USA. It's all one big circle.
That's easy. At the time of wire, the sender would be required to show proof of valid visa/residency/citizenship. If not, 10% tax on remittance. Slap another 20% penalty on companies that aid and abet illegal aliens remitting money without charging tax.

bwall

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2016, 05:34:27 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

What about US companies who buy goods in Mexico for export to Asia and Europe, such as mine? Do they have to pay the 5% tax also? How do you exclude the legitimate companies' wire transfers from .... the people you want to tax? And then how do you keep those people from circumventing the tax?

Here's the thing about Mexican's who work here and send money home; they have exchanged their labor for that money. Their labor stays in the USA in the form of... whatever they did; construction, restaurant work, cleaning, etc. They workers get USD which they will either spend in the USA or send to Mexico, to be spent there on goods that may have been produced in the USA. It's all one big circle.
That's easy. At the time of wire, the sender would be required to show proof of valid visa/residency/citizenship. If not, 10% tax on remittance. Slap another 20% penalty on companies that aid and abet illegal aliens remitting money without charging tax.

And so easy to circumvent. Everyone gives their money to the one legal immigrant who then wires it tax-free to his relative. Who then distributes it in Mexico. Tax successfully avoided.

Can you provide a workable way to tax remittances? Neither can Donald. It's never gonna happen.

dragoncar

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2016, 05:39:09 PM »
Carbon tax on Mexican imports equal to cost of wall.  We don't believe in climate change, of course, but Mexico does so they should pay a tax.

onlykelsey

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Re: how to make Mexico pay for the wall.
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2016, 05:42:18 PM »
Or we could just charge 5% on all money sent to individuals in Mexico from the US, which was approximately $50 BILLION back in 2014 - likely be significantly more now.  Who do you think are sending shit load of money back home - illegal aliens!

What about US companies who buy goods in Mexico for export to Asia and Europe, such as mine? Do they have to pay the 5% tax also? How do you exclude the legitimate companies' wire transfers from .... the people you want to tax? And then how do you keep those people from circumventing the tax?

Here's the thing about Mexican's who work here and send money home; they have exchanged their labor for that money. Their labor stays in the USA in the form of... whatever they did; construction, restaurant work, cleaning, etc. They workers get USD which they will either spend in the USA or send to Mexico, to be spent there on goods that may have been produced in the USA. It's all one big circle.
That's easy. At the time of wire, the sender would be required to show proof of valid visa/residency/citizenship. If not, 10% tax on remittance. Slap another 20% penalty on companies that aid and abet illegal aliens remitting money without charging tax.

And so easy to circumvent. Everyone gives their money to the one legal immigrant who then wires it tax-free to his relative. Who then distributes it in Mexico. Tax successfully avoided.

Can you provide a workable way to tax remittances? Neither can Donald. It's never gonna happen.

Plus, who is in charge of checking the residency documents?  Every Western Union has to hire a federally trained agent to keep on staff for this purpose?