Author Topic: How to handle parents who believe fake news?  (Read 23649 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #300 on: January 10, 2021, 12:26:46 PM »
I don’t see the point of registrering for voting. Sounds like a pain in the ass. All eligible voter here receive their voting card in the mail some time before the election date. Then they cab choose to vote beforehand in certain locations, by mail or on electionday. You need an id to vote but everyone got one because if you can’t basically function without one.
Same here in Canada.
When you file your taxes, you check a box to forward your info to Elections Canada.
That updates their files so you get your voter card in the mail for the right address.

Just to add, filing taxes is important for low income people so they can receive HST relief, child benefits, etc., so this one easy way for poor people to register to vote (there are other ways).  2 boxes, first are you a Canadian citizen, second for the info to Elections Canada.  Elections Canada works hard to encourage people to register to vote, and to vote.

PurpleYogurt

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #301 on: January 10, 2021, 01:22:58 PM »
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.

She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.

Any experiences either way?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 01:30:49 PM by PurpleYogurt »

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #302 on: January 10, 2021, 02:30:40 PM »
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.

She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.

Any experiences either way?

"Mom, I love you.   Trump is criminal scum.   The facts are clear.  You have chosen to live in a land of make-believe about this.  That is your privilege.   I am not going to spend my precious time with you listening to utter crap supporting that criminal scum pour out of your mouth.  Shut up on this topic and we can have a wonderful visit and time together, or we leave.  Your call.  That's what freedom is all about.   Making your choices and living with the consequences.   You need to decide whether you prefer to defend Trump or visit with us. "

Yes, it's harsh.  But folks like this typically just WILL NOT LISTEN otherwise.

Best of luck.   But there's simply no reason to spend precious hours of your life listening to utter drivel based on lies.

ixtap

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #303 on: January 10, 2021, 02:35:33 PM »
I was raised to just pretend like the other person isn't talking when they start in on this. My Dad is the master of this technique, he just changes the subject non chalantly. I have to leave the room.

I am not prepared to listen to any of this claptrap and continue to stay calm enough to have a relationship with these people, so I am avoiding them.

American GenX

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #304 on: January 10, 2021, 03:08:15 PM »
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship.

You should put family above politics.  Trump will be out of office soon enough, so don't let him ruin your relationship.  Just avoid that discussion, change the subject, or whatever.  Most of this should blow over soon enough after the media gets all they can out of it.

ixtap

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #305 on: January 10, 2021, 03:20:40 PM »
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship.

You should put family above politics.  Trump will be out of office soon enough, so don't let him ruin your relationship.  Just avoid that discussion, change the subject, or whatever.  Most of this should blow over soon enough after the media gets all they can out of it.

That really doesn't explain the last 12 years of me having to listen to the racist claptrap and how stupid liberals are and all the rest. You think all those people are going to suddenly become reasonable and stop spreading their lies because Trump left office? They are just going to go back to ignoring politics again?

Kroaler

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #306 on: January 10, 2021, 04:34:14 PM »
I keep thinking it's over.

Votes are in Biden wins. - nope not the end of it.

Supreme court rejects claims of voter fraud - thought that was the end of it.

And then I find out my parents are visiting riots/ protest/ whatever at the capital.   Surely this is the end of it....

But I doubt it at this point.   What's next?

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #307 on: January 10, 2021, 04:58:03 PM »
I keep thinking it's over.

Votes are in Biden wins. - nope not the end of it.

Supreme court rejects claims of voter fraud - thought that was the end of it.

And then I find out my parents are visiting riots/ protest/ whatever at the capital.   Surely this is the end of it....

But I doubt it at this point.   What's next?


SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #308 on: January 10, 2021, 04:59:27 PM »
Well, here's something you can say to express your true feelings and they won't catch on.

ixtap

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #309 on: January 10, 2021, 05:01:52 PM »
I keep thinking it's over.

Votes are in Biden wins. - nope not the end of it.

Supreme court rejects claims of voter fraud - thought that was the end of it.

And then I find out my parents are visiting riots/ protest/ whatever at the capital.   Surely this is the end of it....

But I doubt it at this point.   What's next?

I am about there, but DH is upstairs calling his parents. He has spent hours already trying to figure out this call, but I cannot be in the room. He never talks to his parents two weeks in a row, but I guess he needs to try now rather than letting it fester?

Poundwise

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #310 on: January 10, 2021, 09:23:02 PM »
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.

She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.

Any experiences either way?

I just saw this article; maybe it will be helpful?  https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-qanon-followers-are-dangerous-cult-how-save-someone-ncna1239828

I have had some success with Trump voters by not cornering them, and instead giving them an exit towards me, if that makes sense.  I haven't had any success attacking their king straight on, but here and there I can get them to concede a little on some issues.

Plina

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #311 on: January 10, 2021, 10:29:29 PM »
I don’t see the point of registrering for voting. Sounds like a pain in the ass. All eligible voter here receive their voting card in the mail some time before the election date. Then they cab choose to vote beforehand in certain locations, by mail or on electionday. You need an id to vote but everyone got one because if you can’t basically function without one.
Same here in Canada.
When you file your taxes, you check a box to forward your info to Elections Canada.
That updates their files so you get your voter card in the mail for the right address.

Just to add, filing taxes is important for low income people so they can receive HST relief, child benefits, etc., so this one easy way for poor people to register to vote (there are other ways).  2 boxes, first are you a Canadian citizen, second for the info to Elections Canada.  Elections Canada works hard to encourage people to register to vote, and to vote.

Our population registration done by the tax authorities handles that automatically. When you change adress, you have to notify the population registration. Our election authority sends out the voter card to all voters. Depending on nationality etc, you can vote in different elections. Your nationality is registered in the population registration. Your adress determines in which local and regional elections you can vote in.

Imma

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #312 on: January 11, 2021, 01:25:40 AM »
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.

Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.

Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too.  Did you know that?

Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting.  Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.

Toque.

In my country, the Netherlands, voter fraud did actually happen in the 21st century, and it happened close enough to my hometown that I knew the people involved. It was a one-man-plan, not a coordinated thing, for a non-important election, and he wasn't able to get elected even after the fraud, but it happened. So no, I don't trust anyone when it comes to voting. I believe in thorough procedures to protect the integrity of the election and one part of that is proper identification of voters.

We've discussed this over the last couple of pages and it seems that in the US, at this point, requiring voter ID would cause disenfranchement, that's obviously not the result I'm suggesting. In other countries in the world, like my own, every citizen has an ID card and they are easy to obtain should you lose them or anything like that. If you are low-income you get it for free. You literally can't live here without it, you need it to get a job as well. In that case it doesn't lead to voter disenfranchement to require ID. Like in @Plina 's country (I think Sweden?) everyone eligible to vote gets invited to vote, you go to the polling station with that invite and your ID, everything is checked, if it's all ok you get a paper ballot to vote.

A driver's license is not ID in here by the way, just a card that allows you to drive. I don't even have one myself. We can choose between a passport or a EU ID card (or both).

FrugalToque

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #313 on: January 11, 2021, 05:05:04 AM »
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.

Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.

Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too.  Did you know that?

Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting.  Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.

Toque.

In my country, the Netherlands, voter fraud did actually happen in the 21st century, and it happened close enough to my hometown that I knew the people involved. It was a one-man-plan, not a coordinated thing, for a non-important election, and he wasn't able to get elected even after the fraud, but it happened. So no, I don't trust anyone when it comes to voting. I believe in thorough procedures to protect the integrity of the election and one part of that is proper identification of voters.

We've discussed this over the last couple of pages and it seems that in the US, at this point, requiring voter ID would cause disenfranchement, that's obviously not the result I'm suggesting. In other countries in the world, like my own, every citizen has an ID card and they are easy to obtain should you lose them or anything like that. If you are low-income you get it for free. You literally can't live here without it, you need it to get a job as well. In that case it doesn't lead to voter disenfranchement to require ID. Like in @Plina 's country (I think Sweden?) everyone eligible to vote gets invited to vote, you go to the polling station with that invite and your ID, everything is checked, if it's all ok you get a paper ballot to vote.

A driver's license is not ID in here by the way, just a card that allows you to drive. I don't even have one myself. We can choose between a passport or a EU ID card (or both).

The trouble in the U.S. is that they make the voter ID hard to get.  It has to be "some kind of government issued ID" but they don't issue to poor people, or they make it hard to get, or they make it expensive.  So it just ends working out, "Hey man, just use your driver's license" and a large number of poor people sigh, turn around, and don't get to vote.

In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election.  This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.

It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections.  That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".

Malcat

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #314 on: January 11, 2021, 05:27:08 AM »
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.

Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.

Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too.  Did you know that?

Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting.  Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.

Toque.

In my country, the Netherlands, voter fraud did actually happen in the 21st century, and it happened close enough to my hometown that I knew the people involved. It was a one-man-plan, not a coordinated thing, for a non-important election, and he wasn't able to get elected even after the fraud, but it happened. So no, I don't trust anyone when it comes to voting. I believe in thorough procedures to protect the integrity of the election and one part of that is proper identification of voters.

We've discussed this over the last couple of pages and it seems that in the US, at this point, requiring voter ID would cause disenfranchement, that's obviously not the result I'm suggesting. In other countries in the world, like my own, every citizen has an ID card and they are easy to obtain should you lose them or anything like that. If you are low-income you get it for free. You literally can't live here without it, you need it to get a job as well. In that case it doesn't lead to voter disenfranchement to require ID. Like in @Plina 's country (I think Sweden?) everyone eligible to vote gets invited to vote, you go to the polling station with that invite and your ID, everything is checked, if it's all ok you get a paper ballot to vote.

A driver's license is not ID in here by the way, just a card that allows you to drive. I don't even have one myself. We can choose between a passport or a EU ID card (or both).

The trouble in the U.S. is that they make the voter ID hard to get.  It has to be "some kind of government issued ID" but they don't issue to poor people, or they make it hard to get, or they make it expensive.  So it just ends working out, "Hey man, just use your driver's license" and a large number of poor people sigh, turn around, and don't get to vote.

In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election.  This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.

It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections.  That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".

We don't???

I've always been asked for my ID in addition to my voter card. I think it even says on the voter card to also bring ID.

Am I missing something???

Also, I had a bitch of a time getting ID when I was on and off homeless. I had to illegally use my grandmother's address for years.

OtherJen

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #315 on: January 11, 2021, 05:50:50 AM »
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.

Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.

Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too.  Did you know that?

Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting.  Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.

Toque.

In my country, the Netherlands, voter fraud did actually happen in the 21st century, and it happened close enough to my hometown that I knew the people involved. It was a one-man-plan, not a coordinated thing, for a non-important election, and he wasn't able to get elected even after the fraud, but it happened. So no, I don't trust anyone when it comes to voting. I believe in thorough procedures to protect the integrity of the election and one part of that is proper identification of voters.

We've discussed this over the last couple of pages and it seems that in the US, at this point, requiring voter ID would cause disenfranchement, that's obviously not the result I'm suggesting. In other countries in the world, like my own, every citizen has an ID card and they are easy to obtain should you lose them or anything like that. If you are low-income you get it for free. You literally can't live here without it, you need it to get a job as well. In that case it doesn't lead to voter disenfranchement to require ID. Like in @Plina 's country (I think Sweden?) everyone eligible to vote gets invited to vote, you go to the polling station with that invite and your ID, everything is checked, if it's all ok you get a paper ballot to vote.

A driver's license is not ID in here by the way, just a card that allows you to drive. I don't even have one myself. We can choose between a passport or a EU ID card (or both).

The trouble in the U.S. is that they make the voter ID hard to get.  It has to be "some kind of government issued ID" but they don't issue to poor people, or they make it hard to get, or they make it expensive.  So it just ends working out, "Hey man, just use your driver's license" and a large number of poor people sigh, turn around, and don't get to vote.

In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election.  This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.

It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections.  That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".

We don't???

I've always been asked for my ID in addition to my voter card. I think it even says on the voter card to also bring ID.

Am I missing something???

Also, I had a bitch of a time getting ID when I was on and off homeless. I had to illegally use my grandmother's address for years.

Is there an option to vote without ID? Here in Michigan, we ask for voter ID but if the person doesn’t have proper ID at all or forgot to bring it, they can sign a legally binding affidavit on their ballot application affirming legally that they are who they say they are. All affidavits are numbered with both the voter and ballot numbers and saved with the rest of the paper trail in case there’s an issue. If they’re willing to sign and in the electronic poll book, they can vote.

It would be very difficult to pull off large-scale voter fraud here. Even at the smaller scale, you’d need basically the municipal clerk’s office and poll workers to be in on it. There were 6 workers of different party affiliations per precinct when I worked the polls in November. The absentee ballot counters in my city worked in several teams of four (also of different parties). Both processes were monitored continuously by poll watchers and challengers. All of those people acted as checks and balances.

FrugalToque

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #316 on: January 11, 2021, 07:20:31 AM »

In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election.  This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.

It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections.  That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".

We don't???

I've always been asked for my ID in addition to my voter card. I think it even says on the voter card to also bring ID.

Am I missing something???

Also, I had a bitch of a time getting ID when I was on and off homeless. I had to illegally use my grandmother's address for years.

https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

There are a lot of ways to prove your identity, including a "utility statement" from your home that has your name on it.
  • employee card
    residential lease or sub-lease
    utility bill (e.g.: electricity; water; telecommunications services including telephone, cable or satellite)
That page has about a hundred other options.

I guess I should have said you don't need photo ID, as there's a long list of other options.  Also, you can just have some authorized person "vouch" for you and you "declare" your identity and address.

Toque.

sherr

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #317 on: January 11, 2021, 07:32:31 AM »
Is there an option to vote without ID? Here in Michigan, we ask for voter ID but if the person doesn’t have proper ID at all or forgot to bring it, they can sign a legally binding affidavit on their ballot application affirming legally that they are who they say they are. All affidavits are numbered with both the voter and ballot numbers and saved with the rest of the paper trail in case there’s an issue. If they’re willing to sign and in the electronic poll book, they can vote.

Depends on your state. Most states DO require ID at the polls. All states require (of course) you to prove your citizenship when you register to vote, which is not even a separate thing in the Netherlands or most other countries. There are plenty of gates here in the US to ensure that only citizens are voting, which is why by-and-large only citizens are voting.

GuitarStv

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #318 on: January 11, 2021, 07:33:55 AM »

In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election.  This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.

It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections.  That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".

We don't???

I've always been asked for my ID in addition to my voter card. I think it even says on the voter card to also bring ID.

Am I missing something???

Also, I had a bitch of a time getting ID when I was on and off homeless. I had to illegally use my grandmother's address for years.

https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

There are a lot of ways to prove your identity, including a "utility statement" from your home that has your name on it.
  • employee card
    residential lease or sub-lease
    utility bill (e.g.: electricity; water; telecommunications services including telephone, cable or satellite)
That page has about a hundred other options.

I guess I should have said you don't need photo ID, as there's a long list of other options.  Also, you can just have some authorized person "vouch" for you and you "declare" your identity and address.

Toque.

Yep.  This is because the goal in Canada is to verify the identification of the person . . . not to make it hard for the person to vote.  The US would have implemented such a policy long ago if there was real interest in verifying identification.  I truly believe that most of the American voter laws are in place simply to limit votes.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #319 on: January 11, 2021, 07:55:22 AM »
Going back to the subject of handling Trumpist parents (or any other person in your close group) the advice I heard was to move the conversation away from the fake beliefs and onto core values.  Get them to think back to their previous state by asking them about the teachings of Jesus Christ, or their love for their family, or something good that they did in the world, and so on.  It's not an immediate fix, but the advantages are that you are not talking about Trump or QAnon or whatever batshit theory they are currently imbibing on Facebook, and you are talking about things that ground them in reality and the good parts of their lives.  The hope is that eventually real life will start to become uppermost in their dealings with the world again, and even if it doesn't at least you have a safe space for non-contentious discussion.

OtherJen

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #320 on: January 11, 2021, 08:42:51 AM »
Going back to the subject of handling Trumpist parents (or any other person in your close group) the advice I heard was to move the conversation away from the fake beliefs and onto core values.  Get them to think back to their previous state by asking them about the teachings of Jesus Christ, or their love for their family, or something good that they did in the world, and so on.  It's not an immediate fix, but the advantages are that you are not talking about Trump or QAnon or whatever batshit theory they are currently imbibing on Facebook, and you are talking about things that ground them in reality and the good parts of their lives.  The hope is that eventually real life will start to become uppermost in their dealings with the world again, and even if it doesn't at least you have a safe space for non-contentious discussion.

That's how my mom has been able to remain on speaking terms with her brother (who went down the Fox News/Limbaugh/NRA rabbit hole years ago).

ixtap

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #321 on: January 11, 2021, 09:52:35 AM »
Going back to the subject of handling Trumpist parents (or any other person in your close group) the advice I heard was to move the conversation away from the fake beliefs and onto core values.  Get them to think back to their previous state by asking them about the teachings of Jesus Christ, or their love for their family, or something good that they did in the world, and so on.  It's not an immediate fix, but the advantages are that you are not talking about Trump or QAnon or whatever batshit theory they are currently imbibing on Facebook, and you are talking about things that ground them in reality and the good parts of their lives.  The hope is that eventually real life will start to become uppermost in their dealings with the world again, and even if it doesn't at least you have a safe space for non-contentious discussion.

This works with some family members, but with FIL, the only thing that works is keeping him focused on talking about what he can touch right now. Games work well in person, but the man can make a political rant out of any topic.

the_fixer

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #322 on: January 11, 2021, 12:54:21 PM »
My wife hit her limit with her dad when he claimed that the people at the riot were not trump supporters but evil angels sent to bring about the end times and Antifa. (She grew up in a religious environment that is considered a cult and has made the news) she has muted him on Facebook along with most of the church members as they are posting all kinds of crazy stuff.

If he brings anything political up on the phone she tries to change the subject and if that does not work she tells him she is busy and has to go.

So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.


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SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #323 on: January 11, 2021, 01:15:15 PM »
So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.

Maybe you'll get lucky and discover a number of non-white ancestors and he'll decide supporting white supremacists might not be as wise as he thought...

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #324 on: January 11, 2021, 03:02:23 PM »
So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.

Maybe you'll get lucky and discover a number of non-white ancestors and he'll decide supporting white supremacists might not be as wise as he thought...

Ha ha, that’s exactly what crossed my mind.  In fact, I thought that’s where the post was heading!

ixtap

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #325 on: January 11, 2021, 03:05:46 PM »
So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.

Maybe you'll get lucky and discover a number of non-white ancestors and he'll decide supporting white supremacists might not be as wise as he thought...

FIL just declared that it proved he wasn't racist and went right on spewing racist crap.

the_fixer

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #326 on: January 11, 2021, 03:59:25 PM »
So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.

Maybe you'll get lucky and discover a number of non-white ancestors and he'll decide supporting white supremacists might not be as wise as he thought...
Wouldn’t surprise me, she has been told all of her life that they are English and Irish but my wife tans easily and has a light olive complexion.

I think for his B day we are going to give him an ancestry DNA kit :)


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partgypsy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #327 on: January 11, 2021, 05:38:21 PM »
Going back to the subject of handling Trumpist parents (or any other person in your close group) the advice I heard was to move the conversation away from the fake beliefs and onto core values.  Get them to think back to their previous state by asking them about the teachings of Jesus Christ, or their love for their family, or something good that they did in the world, and so on.  It's not an immediate fix, but the advantages are that you are not talking about Trump or QAnon or whatever batshit theory they are currently imbibing on Facebook, and you are talking about things that ground them in reality and the good parts of their lives.  The hope is that eventually real life will start to become uppermost in their dealings with the world again, and even if it doesn't at least you have a safe space for non-contentious discussion.

This reminded me of this article https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/magazine/trump-coup.html?fbclid=IwAR1u_s0NTw9inNljP4WFGiH1_k3F9HjX9aIRWP8R42RlCIfHdj_V32KV2zQ
in particular this quote ""Arendt thought that big lies work only on lonely minds. Their coherence substitutes for experience and companionship".

Personally being a single mom who works full time plus has a house to take care of, I don't have TIME to get as obsessed as people who went full Trump. But even I know that sometimes I use media and electronica (including this blog) as a substitute for the "real thing" friendship, companionship, etc. If everyone was able to do the things that they normally do, have their weekly hang out at Biscuitville, going to the fishing hole, band practice, visting with friends and family,  I actually think people would see more what REALLY matters, versus going down some conspiracy rabbit hole. So I do think COVID has made this whole thing worse.


I don't know if I have patience for it myself (I gotten to the point I am So Tired of Stupidity in all forms), but if you do have patience do ground people you know who are losing or lost touch with reality in real things. Turn off the tv, say we are going for a walk, make a meal together, whatever. And yes values, whether that is family, or helping the environment, or housing or whatever, that people can focus their time and energy in tangible ways those those causes regardless of who is in power. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 05:41:49 PM by partgypsy »

talltexan

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #328 on: January 12, 2021, 06:31:52 AM »
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.

She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.

Any experiences either way?

"Mom, I love you.   Trump is criminal scum.   The facts are clear.  You have chosen to live in a land of make-believe about this.  That is your privilege.   I am not going to spend my precious time with you listening to utter crap supporting that criminal scum pour out of your mouth.  Shut up on this topic and we can have a wonderful visit and time together, or we leave.  Your call.  That's what freedom is all about.   Making your choices and living with the consequences.   You need to decide whether you prefer to defend Trump or visit with us. "

Yes, it's harsh.  But folks like this typically just WILL NOT LISTEN otherwise.

Best of luck.   But there's simply no reason to spend precious hours of your life listening to utter drivel based on lies.

Do NOT follow this advice. You will be true to your beliefs, but at what cost? And it will utterly fail to persuade your mother.

talltexan

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #329 on: January 12, 2021, 06:35:34 AM »
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship.

You should put family above politics.  Trump will be out of office soon enough, so don't let him ruin your relationship.  Just avoid that discussion, change the subject, or whatever.  Most of this should blow over soon enough after the media gets all they can out of it.

That really doesn't explain the last 12 years of me having to listen to the racist claptrap and how stupid liberals are and all the rest. You think all those people are going to suddenly become reasonable and stop spreading their lies because Trump left office? They are just going to go back to ignoring politics again?

Here's a script I would follow:

"Mom, I understand that you believe Trump would be a better President than Biden. I imagine that's because you value the economy, and you're worried that Biden will abolish private property now that he has a Senate majority. I realize I haven't always been very clear in talking about these things, but you might be surprised to know that I actually still believe in private property as well. Can I tell you about some of the wealthy clients I'm representing in eviction court right now?"

Let the person know they're heard, express a value you have in common, transition to an area where you're making him/her proud.

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #330 on: January 12, 2021, 06:37:03 AM »
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.

She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.

Any experiences either way?

"Mom, I love you.   Trump is criminal scum.   The facts are clear.  You have chosen to live in a land of make-believe about this.  That is your privilege.   I am not going to spend my precious time with you listening to utter crap supporting that criminal scum pour out of your mouth.  Shut up on this topic and we can have a wonderful visit and time together, or we leave.  Your call.  That's what freedom is all about.   Making your choices and living with the consequences.   You need to decide whether you prefer to defend Trump or visit with us. "

Yes, it's harsh.  But folks like this typically just WILL NOT LISTEN otherwise.

Best of luck.   But there's simply no reason to spend precious hours of your life listening to utter drivel based on lies.

Do NOT follow this advice. You will be true to your beliefs, but at what cost? And it will utterly fail to persuade your mother.

A similar conversation with my parents didn't convince them not to be racists, but it did keep them from making racist comments in my presence.

Your mileage may vary.

talltexan

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #331 on: January 12, 2021, 06:41:11 AM »
I also follow the following exercise to keep myself humble:

I envision that it's the year 2045, and I'm an old man sitting at my daughter's table. She has managed to build an independent and fulfilling life, with a job far better than one I ever had as a Vice President for Conoco-Phillips. But--now in her 30s--she is ranting about the bygone beauty of the Trump era, and how the whole country went off course when they legalized gay marriage. And I'm wondering where in my parenting I could have gone so wrong.

That vision keeps me humble as I interact with my own parents.

Roots&Wings

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #332 on: January 12, 2021, 07:10:18 AM »
Thanks for that article @Poundwise. There's certainly a range of different approaches in this thread from cutting out, ignoring, and trying to help them "see the light".

"Engage with the person. Appear curious about their beliefs and how they were introduced to them. Ask what person, social media post or video first got them interested and what led them to take it more seriously. Connect with the person by focusing on shared interests and experiences. This is important, because it will help remind the person who they were before getting hooked into the cult. It's also important to keep the conversation positive, because developing rapport and trust with warmth is a key to engaging and getting people to interact with you similarly. They have been indoctrinated to think you have been brainwashed by the likes of the pedophile traffickers, so it's important that they see you as a real person.

Don't judge. Don't insult the person or try to argue against their beliefs. Don't talk down to them or call them names. Instead, act genuinely interested in what they understand the group and its beliefs to be. Don't use terms like "conspiracy theory" or "brainwashed." That could cause the person to avoid you entirely, spend more time online and slide further down into the QAnon world.

Appeal to their sense of integrity, reason and conscience. Orient the QAnon believer to the idea that if something is true, it will stand up to scrutiny. Talk about the value of research, which has to include reading what critics and former QAnon members have to say, not only believers.

Suggest alternative information sources. Redirect the person toward legitimate news sources, social psychology research and other sources of reliable information about how the mind works that shed light on some of the topics QAnon uses to draw people in, such as child trafficking. (This is especially important because QAnon followers have hijacked a movement to stop child trafficking.) My book on cults explains this process in more detail.

Intelligent people can fall prey to cult tactics, which work most effectively on those who don't understand how they work. This could be you.

Create a team of trusted allies. You're just one person against a large community of cult influencers. To bolster critical thinking and independent decision-making, talk to the QAnon follower's friends and family members and encourage them to reconnect with their loved one. The more time the person spends with others and away from the QAnon chat forums, the better.

Now that QAnon is becoming a global phenomenon, with Trump and others in positions of power promoting it, there's a lot at stake. As we approach the presidential elections, Russia and the Christian right are promoting QAnon theories, while the cult's leaders are calling for followers on Twitter to prepare themselves for an armed civil war. We have to be vigilant and do what we can to learn about the dangers of QAnon so we can protect ourselves and those we care about — as well as our democracy — from this cult."

FrugalToque

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #333 on: January 12, 2021, 10:19:41 AM »
A similar conversation with my parents didn't convince them not to be racists, but it did keep them from making racist comments in my presence.

Your mileage may vary.

I think this is step one: teaching racist assholes that their racism has no place in civilized society.
Push them back into the darkness where their beliefs can die cold and alone, barely pronounceable even to their children.
And if the children do hear it? 
They'll see the way their parents look around to make sure no one else is listening, and they'll know the phrases uttered are unnacceptable.

Toque.

bmjohnson35

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #334 on: January 12, 2021, 06:20:17 PM »

I received a call from a family member this morning about Trump's plan leading up to the 20th.  Multiple postings and videos from FB were forwarded to me for review.  I'm not going to go into the details, but I will say that it was scary.  It's scary what people will believe and it makes me understand more and more how Hitler came to power.  Fear is a powerful emotion and these people really know how to sow it.

I carefully and strategically provided some critical feedback on the content, but I could see I wasn't even making a dent.

I still don't intend to stock up on ammunition or prepare for armageddon, but I will say that I'm a little more unsettled than I was yesterday. 

Kroaler

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #335 on: January 13, 2021, 08:31:16 AM »

I received a call from a family member this morning about Trump's plan leading up to the 20th.  Multiple postings and videos from FB were forwarded to me for review.  I'm not going to go into the details, but I will say that it was scary.  It's scary what people will believe and it makes me understand more and more how Hitler came to power.  Fear is a powerful emotion and these people really know how to sow it.

I carefully and strategically provided some critical feedback on the content, but I could see I wasn't even making a dent.

I still don't intend to stock up on ammunition or prepare for armageddon, but I will say that I'm a little more unsettled than I was yesterday.

It's very scary.   My parents and me had a deal.  Since we couldn't (so they say) prove who's information was correct, we agreed that the now right leaning supreme court would be the final verdict. To my knowledge the supreme court won't even take stolen election cases or whatever it's called due to lack of evidence.

Unfortunately my parents haven't upheld their end of the deal and dropped it, instead they have doubled down on the conspiracies.

I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?

As another poster stated - this has absolutely opened my eyes to how easy it would be for a Hitler or other similar leader to rise to power and sway the masses.   And we all have the internet to fact check.  I imagine it would be even easier for a leader to pull off if they controlled all media.

Just Joe

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #336 on: January 13, 2021, 08:50:03 AM »
Yep - to both of you. The Germany/Hitler question always left me wondering how. Of course the lightweight history books I was reading avoided the cause and effects of the war. Its easy to see how people are manipulated into war with the events of the past 15 years. The question is whether our country will continue to listen to the mad men or whether ultimately reason will win the day. Right now, I think it is toss up.

I surely hope people don't line up on sides and accept violence as a solution. Its never a good solution.

The rhetoric and the right's fascination with guns and action heroes is worrying. I'd be very disappointed to see our nation's lives and wealth wasted that way. 

sherr

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #337 on: January 13, 2021, 08:50:58 AM »
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?

All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.

wenchsenior

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #338 on: January 13, 2021, 09:20:52 AM »
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?

All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.

Yes. Go read any randomly chosen set of comments at RedState.com...that's what you will see. It's absolutely amazing.  A lot of these people are sincerely terrified that they are going to be rounded up and put in re-education camps.

OtherJen

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #339 on: January 13, 2021, 09:32:20 AM »
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?

All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.

That does seem to summarize it. Rather sounds like Scientology.

partgypsy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #340 on: January 13, 2021, 11:04:18 AM »
It is scary. I work at a VA, and we were notified while there are no specific threats against us, because it is a government building they are increasing security leading up to the inaguration. That I work for the federal government I may become a target. I can't even imagine how our elected representatives ( like Pence, Pelosi) feel. Their place of work hijacked and ransacked, and getting death threats. It is absolutely an effort to intimidate and silence elected officials.  https://www.thedailybeast.com/cleveland-grover-meredith-jr-had-the-means-to-carry-out-death-threat-against-pelosi-dc-mayor-docs-say?source=cheats&via=rss
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 11:09:14 AM by partgypsy »

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #341 on: January 13, 2021, 11:56:15 AM »
It is scary. I work at a VA, and we were notified while there are no specific threats against us, because it is a government building they are increasing security leading up to the inaguration. That I work for the federal government I may become a target. I can't even imagine how our elected representatives ( like Pence, Pelosi) feel. Their place of work hijacked and ransacked, and getting death threats. It is absolutely an effort to intimidate and silence elected officials.  https://www.thedailybeast.com/cleveland-grover-meredith-jr-had-the-means-to-carry-out-death-threat-against-pelosi-dc-mayor-docs-say?source=cheats&via=rss

Violence plus political intimidation = terrorism.   

Plina

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #342 on: January 13, 2021, 12:09:40 PM »
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?

All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.

Yes. Go read any randomly chosen set of comments at RedState.com...that's what you will see. It's absolutely amazing.  A lot of these people are sincerely terrified that they are going to be rounded up and put in re-education camps.

Sounds actually like they would need a re-education camp or get back to reality-camp. It seems like they are living in an alternative reality.

ixtap

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #343 on: January 13, 2021, 12:12:57 PM »
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?

All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.

Yes. Go read any randomly chosen set of comments at RedState.com...that's what you will see. It's absolutely amazing.  A lot of these people are sincerely terrified that they are going to be rounded up and put in re-education camps.

Sounds actually like they would need a re-education camp or get back to reality-camp. It seems like they are living in an alternative reality.

Unfortunately, just shipping people off to re-education camp doesn't actually work on breaking through their bubble, it just builds more resentment.

GuitarStv

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #344 on: January 13, 2021, 12:31:08 PM »
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?

All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.

Yes. Go read any randomly chosen set of comments at RedState.com...that's what you will see. It's absolutely amazing.  A lot of these people are sincerely terrified that they are going to be rounded up and put in re-education camps.

Sounds actually like they would need a re-education camp or get back to reality-camp. It seems like they are living in an alternative reality.

Unfortunately, just shipping people off to re-education camp doesn't actually work on breaking through their bubble, it just builds more resentment.

Is it possible to make someone acknowledge reality?  How would one do this without building resentment?

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #345 on: January 13, 2021, 12:31:14 PM »
One thing to consider doing would be to get a list of the various websites that the alt-right uses and various spokespersons on standard social media platforms and modify one's parent's browsers and account settings.

It's highly likely that the browser is set up to automatically connect to these webpages.

Browsers can be set to block specific websites.   People on twitter, FB, etc can be unfollowed.   Maybe if the volume of crap being poured into their brains is slowed down actual facts might find room to enter.    Now is a good time to try given a bunch of sites are being shutdown.

https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file.

And, yes, I'm well aware that there are ethical implications to my suggestion.   Same with emptying liquor bottles and destroying dangerous illegal drugs that might belong to them.    That's the problem with evil, it taints everything it comes into contact with and makes people choose between one evil or another because 100% good is no longer on the menu.






ixtap

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #346 on: January 13, 2021, 12:45:38 PM »
One thing to consider doing would be to get a list of the various websites that the alt-right uses and various spokespersons on standard social media platforms and modify one's parent's browsers and account settings.

It's highly likely that the browser is set up to automatically connect to these webpages.

Browsers can be set to block specific websites.   People on twitter, FB, etc can be unfollowed.   Maybe if the volume of crap being poured into their brains is slowed down actual facts might find room to enter.    Now is a good time to try given a bunch of sites are being shutdown.

https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file.

And, yes, I'm well aware that there are ethical implications to my suggestion.   Same with emptying liquor bottles and destroying dangerous illegal drugs that might belong to them.    That's the problem with evil, it taints everything it comes into contact with and makes people choose between one evil or another because 100% good is no longer on the menu.

I am not sure why you would assume that truth deniers are practically computer illiterate? My FIL can make the internet sing his song like a symphony. He just refuses to use any critical thinking skills on it and would probably blame finding such blocks on his computer as further proof of big tech/ deep state/ Obama/ socialists messing with his life, even as he removed them. To be fair, he son IS big tech and we are both in support of most of what he points to as "socialist" (just not, yeah know, the authoritarian crap that they also associate with "socialist" while trying to pull it off themselves)

My brother is a systems administrator, the kind of first generation computer geek who installed the systems in his own university while getting a cs degree - he could probably track such changes directly back to who made them if they left the slightest indication. In addition to all the conspiracies mentioned in this thread, he will talk your ear off about how the Grand Canyon proves that Geology is a fake science, which is also proof that evolution is brainwashing.

OtherJen

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #347 on: January 13, 2021, 12:52:06 PM »
One thing to consider doing would be to get a list of the various websites that the alt-right uses and various spokespersons on standard social media platforms and modify one's parent's browsers and account settings.

It's highly likely that the browser is set up to automatically connect to these webpages.

Browsers can be set to block specific websites.   People on twitter, FB, etc can be unfollowed.   Maybe if the volume of crap being poured into their brains is slowed down actual facts might find room to enter.    Now is a good time to try given a bunch of sites are being shutdown.

https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file.

And, yes, I'm well aware that there are ethical implications to my suggestion.   Same with emptying liquor bottles and destroying dangerous illegal drugs that might belong to them.    That's the problem with evil, it taints everything it comes into contact with and makes people choose between one evil or another because 100% good is no longer on the menu.

I am not sure why you would assume that truth deniers are practically computer illiterate? My FIL can make the internet sing his song like a symphony. He just refuses to use any critical thinking skills on it and would probably blame finding such blocks on his computer as further proof of big tech/ deep state/ Obama/ socialists messing with his life, even as he removed them. To be fair, he son IS big tech and we are both in support of most of what he points to as "socialist" (just not, yeah know, the authoritarian crap that they also associate with "socialist" while trying to pull it off themselves)

My brother is a systems administrator, the kind of first generation computer geek who installed the systems in his own university while getting a cs degree - he could probably track such changes directly back to who made them if they left the slightest indication. In addition to all the conspiracies mentioned in this thread, he will talk your ear off about how the Grand Canyon proves that Geology is a fake science, which is also proof that evolution is brainwashing.

One of my husband's formerly close friends has gone really far down the rabbit hole of creationism and Trumpism. He has a computer science degree and is a very well paid programmer. He's also extremely paranoid, and would definitely view such blocks on his computer as fodder for his theories about the deep state.

Apples

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #348 on: January 13, 2021, 12:53:26 PM »
My mom is starting down the facebook alternative media rabbit hole.  As are many of my neighbors.  I constantly fact check things when they're blantantly false, but both of my brothers have blocked her so they don't have to see what she posts.

talltexan

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #349 on: January 13, 2021, 01:08:51 PM »
I listened to a podcast called "You're Wrong About" that had an episode specially devoted to Fox News and Social media and saving older relatives from it. While I have little use for Fox News world, I'm actually starting to think Facebook is more dangerous because of the extent to which it re-inforces our own bad habits through algorithms designed to hold our attention. At least with Fox news, there isn't a customization dimension.