Author Topic: How much will non-vaxxing by GOP reduce the population of voting age republicans  (Read 31415 times)

fuzzy math

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Large numbers of healthcare workers are retiring or switching to outpatient to avoid covidiots (defined by me as people who don’t believe that covid is a significant health threat to their given demographic, and refuse basic low-risk precautions because of conspiracy theories from Facebook rather than listening to experts). My hospital is partially exempt from taking covid patients and even we’re having problems retaining because many nurses work at other hospitals too and are burnt out. I remember in this forum a certain person said that “well it’s what we signed up for”, but turns out it isn’t a draft and healthcare workers have other options. So have fun laying in that ER gurney for 2 days, courtesy of your local covid deniers.

Even with the partial exemption we have two units with covid patients. Just waiting for the next set of emergency transfers because there’s literally nowhere else to send someone…

Speaking of which, what happened to that one person who was convinced we were being “hysterical” when warning about potential consequences of the pandemic?

Staffing at my hospital was abhorrent BEFORE the pandemic. Nurses on most of the units were taking more patients than what the patient's needs dictated. "oh this patient is a 1:2? well we'll give you 3 of those today". This was by design. The growth of bean counters and the relative lack of growth of care / support roles had already destroyed the profession. Add in COVID, furlough people, subject them to conditions where their PPE was terrible, and combine that with an already simmering staffing crisis and you've got a multi faceted crisis now. Then add in emergency traveling responder pay, where nurses were making $7 - 10k a week doing assignments in NY and CA, and you've created a vacuum where it literally pays to leave. RNs at my hospital make $26 an hour, excluding shift differentials etc. No bonus pay for CCRN. They are hiring travelers at $117 per hour. What incentive is there to stay when your hospital devalues you so much that they'll hire people who have to be trained and babysat and they're paying them 450% of what you're making? Now the hospital pays a $25 / hr bonus for any extra shift you pick up. It still doesn't even come close to what travelers make, but at least its helping staff receive compensation without having to leave their family to travel, and its incentivizing them to work a 4th shift a week, which is helping to cover the staffing shortages.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 07:43:09 AM by fuzzy math »

fuzzy math

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AAAAAND of course, administration is just wringing their hands over it. I sat in on the meeting where they were all baffled about why they couldn't fill traveling roles at $117 per hour. Its because every other hospital in the country is offering this to their travelers too. And nurses use travelers message boards / forums and can easily vet a place before they sign on. So they search for "fuzzy math hospital" in City, State and everyone who responds tells them what a shit show it is. But corporate bean counters (whose job seems to entirely rely upon making staff chant their culture of excellence rules at all meetings, after just having told nursing staff that safe staffing ratios don't apply today) can't see that they've fostered a culture of gas lighting and treating people like garbage. They just keep repeating their corporate mission and counting those beans...

PeteD01

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Maybe this has removed the brake on virulence similar to what is seen in zoonotic diseases like Ebola. In other words, the vaccinated are to the unvaccinated what bats are to humans in areas where Ebola is endemic.


The vaccinated are eating the unvaccinated? You need to read up and reassess your analogy there

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-29604204

Actually, the unvaccinated eating the vaccinated...

theoverlook

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Neil deGrasse Tyson is famously anti-science so he probably made it up.

I think that needs a trustworthy citation as badly as Tyson's initial tweet.

MudPuppy

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Vanderbilt Health decided to start sharing some stats from their hospitals on weekly covid hospitalizations. This is for the seven days ending 8/28:

Total hospitalized
Unvaccinated: 156
Vaccinated: 30

Total in ICU:
Unvaccinated: 33
Vaccinated: 6

Total Ventilated:
Unvaccinated: 9
Vaccinated: 1

They also add that the majority of vaccinated have underlying immune compromise

A guitarist in the church band passed away this week from covid. I hope that the pastor will discuss it and urge people to get vaccinated this Sunday.

Fewer than 100 ICU beds are left in the entire state.

fuzzy math

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Maybe this has removed the brake on virulence similar to what is seen in zoonotic diseases like Ebola. In other words, the vaccinated are to the unvaccinated what bats are to humans in areas where Ebola is endemic.


The vaccinated are eating the unvaccinated? You need to read up and reassess your analogy there

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-29604204

Actually, the unvaccinated eating the vaccinated...

So the unvaccinated (people) are eating the vaccinated (bats who are infected) and getting sick is what you're saying. Still doesn't fit.

GodlessCommie

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Liberty University (a conservative, religious Virginia school) had more covid cases than four leading public schools in the state combined, each of them with larger student population.

https://wset.com/news/coronavirus/liberty-university-has-more-covid-19-cases-than-four-larger-virginia-campuses-combined

I hope it doesn't lead to deaths, especially among people who need jobs there -  but gosh, they try so hard...
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 10:46:57 AM by GodlessCommie »

Kris

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The Herman Cain Award subreddit is just overflowing with publicly declared anti-vaxxers dying, like by the hour it seems. It's just shocking how many people are kicking the bucket right now.

On my way home from a family gettogether where I heard of deaths and severe illness in distant relatives, I started thinking about what form the transition to endemicity of the virus could take. I live in Jacksonville and things are really bad here in the unvaccinated population. That probably colors my thoughts more negative than the issue deserves. In any case, here is what I wrote down when I got home. I think there is a possibility that the unvaccinated are going to be absolutely screwed as vaccination rates are going up:

I am slowly becoming more and more supicious that Delta is more virulent than previous variants.
Generally, transmissible pathogens do not do well in terms of becoming endemic if their virulence is excessive, but this is not always true, particularly with zoonotic diseases. But now we have a large population of vaccinated people in whom the virus can circulate with minimal mortality.
Maybe this has removed the brake on virulence similar to what is seen in zoonotic diseases like Ebola. In other words, the vaccinated are to the unvaccinated what bats are to humans in areas where Ebola is endemic.
Combine this with the close contact of this population with the susceptible, unvaccinated population and one comes up with the, not at all desirable, situation that ever more lethal variants could freely circulate exterminating over time the unvaccinated adult population. (immunity conveyed via infection in adults doe not appear to be protective in the long run, whereas children are probably more likely to develop robust immunity from infection) 
I now can imagine the entering of the endemic stage to be accompanied by a massive die-off of the unlucky unvaccinated population.
What I am saying here is not more than basic evolutionary biology: The apparent decrease over time in virulence of a successful endemic pathogen is not necessarily mediated by a change of the pathogen but also by a major mortality event in the host population selecting for resistant varieties and resulting in an apparent decrease in virulence.
The depopulation of the Americas by infectious diseases after contact with Europeans comes to mind, but there are many other examples, particularly in plant diseases (Dutch elm disease and others).
Well, food for thought, nothing more.
I read an interesting article just a couple days ago that a new variant has been uncovered, one labelled C.1.2 (that would mean something to a virologist). It is the most highly mutated variant yet, and shares many of the same mutations that the Delta variant does. We'll have to see whether it's as transmissible or deadly, etc. with time. Interestingly, this latest variant has evolved to needing only half as many iterations as the original strain to mutate again. So the speed of mutation from that variant forward is doublly fast. How many attempts at mutation does it need to find one that hurts us more? that evades vaccines? We're leaving the door open for a very bad outcome.

The good news is that natural immunity from infection has now rather convincingly been shown to be at least as good as immunity from vaccination with the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

First, that article is a preprint that has not yet been peer reviewed. Second, there are a lot of flaws in their methodology from what I can gather. (Read the comments.)

Releasing preprints has been a particularly problematic aspect of this pandemic. Especially as they are so open to misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and even willful misrepresentation by the science illiterate and would-be profiteers.

I hear you but I can´t help the illiterate and they cannot be protected from this in any reasonable way.
I have reviewed quite a number of papers and I can report, unless outright fabrication is discovered, that this study moves my needle from possible equivalence of prior infection with vaccination from possibly (as there is mechanistic biological plausibility) to most likely equivalence and possibly superiority of prior infection in conveying immunity to symptomatic reinfection (I emphasize symptomatic) when compared to the effects of the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine.
The real meat of the study is found in the very low rates of symptomatic reinfection in all groups (hence the wide CI´s of the OR´s despite the large number of subjects). The finding that the the odds of symptomatic reinfection are in favor of natural immunity is only the icing on the cake as the risk of symptomatic reinfection was less than 0.1%. That translates into less than 10 per 1000 in both groups, making the difference between the groups for all practical purposes irrelevant.
The difference between the groups is what the comments are going on about, but this is at this point an interesting but academic discussion.
Of course, observational studies have serious limitations but we will never see RCT´s investigating this issue.

The CDC's research suggests something else, however, does it not?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm

PeteD01

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The Herman Cain Award subreddit is just overflowing with publicly declared anti-vaxxers dying, like by the hour it seems. It's just shocking how many people are kicking the bucket right now.

On my way home from a family gettogether where I heard of deaths and severe illness in distant relatives, I started thinking about what form the transition to endemicity of the virus could take. I live in Jacksonville and things are really bad here in the unvaccinated population. That probably colors my thoughts more negative than the issue deserves. In any case, here is what I wrote down when I got home. I think there is a possibility that the unvaccinated are going to be absolutely screwed as vaccination rates are going up:

I am slowly becoming more and more supicious that Delta is more virulent than previous variants.
Generally, transmissible pathogens do not do well in terms of becoming endemic if their virulence is excessive, but this is not always true, particularly with zoonotic diseases. But now we have a large population of vaccinated people in whom the virus can circulate with minimal mortality.
Maybe this has removed the brake on virulence similar to what is seen in zoonotic diseases like Ebola. In other words, the vaccinated are to the unvaccinated what bats are to humans in areas where Ebola is endemic.
Combine this with the close contact of this population with the susceptible, unvaccinated population and one comes up with the, not at all desirable, situation that ever more lethal variants could freely circulate exterminating over time the unvaccinated adult population. (immunity conveyed via infection in adults doe not appear to be protective in the long run, whereas children are probably more likely to develop robust immunity from infection) 
I now can imagine the entering of the endemic stage to be accompanied by a massive die-off of the unlucky unvaccinated population.
What I am saying here is not more than basic evolutionary biology: The apparent decrease over time in virulence of a successful endemic pathogen is not necessarily mediated by a change of the pathogen but also by a major mortality event in the host population selecting for resistant varieties and resulting in an apparent decrease in virulence.
The depopulation of the Americas by infectious diseases after contact with Europeans comes to mind, but there are many other examples, particularly in plant diseases (Dutch elm disease and others).
Well, food for thought, nothing more.
I read an interesting article just a couple days ago that a new variant has been uncovered, one labelled C.1.2 (that would mean something to a virologist). It is the most highly mutated variant yet, and shares many of the same mutations that the Delta variant does. We'll have to see whether it's as transmissible or deadly, etc. with time. Interestingly, this latest variant has evolved to needing only half as many iterations as the original strain to mutate again. So the speed of mutation from that variant forward is doublly fast. How many attempts at mutation does it need to find one that hurts us more? that evades vaccines? We're leaving the door open for a very bad outcome.

The good news is that natural immunity from infection has now rather convincingly been shown to be at least as good as immunity from vaccination with the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

First, that article is a preprint that has not yet been peer reviewed. Second, there are a lot of flaws in their methodology from what I can gather. (Read the comments.)

Releasing preprints has been a particularly problematic aspect of this pandemic. Especially as they are so open to misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and even willful misrepresentation by the science illiterate and would-be profiteers.

I hear you but I can´t help the illiterate and they cannot be protected from this in any reasonable way.
I have reviewed quite a number of papers and I can report, unless outright fabrication is discovered, that this study moves my needle from possible equivalence of prior infection with vaccination from possibly (as there is mechanistic biological plausibility) to most likely equivalence and possibly superiority of prior infection in conveying immunity to symptomatic reinfection (I emphasize symptomatic) when compared to the effects of the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine.
The real meat of the study is found in the very low rates of symptomatic reinfection in all groups (hence the wide CI´s of the OR´s despite the large number of subjects). The finding that the the odds of symptomatic reinfection are in favor of natural immunity is only the icing on the cake as the risk of symptomatic reinfection was less than 0.1%. That translates into less than 10 per 1000 in both groups, making the difference between the groups for all practical purposes irrelevant.
The difference between the groups is what the comments are going on about, but this is at this point an interesting but academic discussion.
Of course, observational studies have serious limitations but we will never see RCT´s investigating this issue.

The CDC's research suggests something else, however, does it not?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm

The CDC study does not address absolute risk. This is a problem because the practical implications of the results will be unclear. If absolute risk is already greatly reduced from the vaccination or first infection, differences between breakthrough and reinfection rates may not be very important even if the odds ratios look impressive.
By the way, reporting odds ratios/relative risk and omitting absolute risk is an exceedingly common trick to make results appear more dramatic than they really are.
Let´s say that a researcher finds that eating an apple a day reduces the risk for stomach cancer 5 fold and a journalist picks this up and writes a piece about this without also reporting the baseline incidence of 7 per 100000 per year, people will be very impressed. But the absolute risk went from 0.00007 down to 0.000014 per year, not exactly an earth shattering result and certainly not enough to start eating 365 apples a year.
In addition, when it comes to observational studies, such small differences are really nothing but statistical noise. A lot of the "studies" in the nutritional sciences come up with such nonsense.
The othe problem is that the CDC study is a study of lab results and not of disease. At this point, I am not interested that much in infection per se but in infection resulting in disease. We know that the coronavirus will continue to circulate and the most important question currently is how much disease the virus will cause during the transition to the endemic stage. 

nippycrisp

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<snip stuff from above>

I hear you but I can´t help the illiterate and they cannot be protected from this in any reasonable way.
I have reviewed quite a number of papers and I can report, unless outright fabrication is discovered, that this study moves my needle from possible equivalence of prior infection with vaccination from possibly (as there is mechanistic biological plausibility) to most likely equivalence and possibly superiority of prior infection in conveying immunity to symptomatic reinfection (I emphasize symptomatic) when compared to the effects of the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine.
The real meat of the study is found in the very low rates of symptomatic reinfection in all groups (hence the wide CI´s of the OR´s despite the large number of subjects). The finding that the the odds of symptomatic reinfection are in favor of natural immunity is only the icing on the cake as the risk of symptomatic reinfection was less than 0.1%. That translates into less than 10 per 1000 in both groups, making the difference between the groups for all practical purposes irrelevant.
The difference between the groups is what the comments are going on about, but this is at this point an interesting but academic discussion.
Of course, observational studies have serious limitations but we will never see RCT´s investigating this issue.

I appreciate that you know your stuff, but I think we need @nippycrisp in here to translate medical to regular folk english.

It's (by data analysis standards) a pretty simple retrospective study with some serious design issues. The commenters on the preprint who clearly have technical acumen (and not the positional morons) are doing a great job of enumerating them, and also pointing out why it's dangerous to put out information before it's properly vetted by experts (again, some of whom are prowling in the comments section).

A quick skim also makes it clear this was put together pretty fast, without much contemplation time. For example, the methods section says they used two multivariate analyses, then lists three. That's likely not a typo - if you note the date ranges for analysis they consider, it seems like they were running new models in short order and just added one in without making adjustments. It could be considered cherry picking data, but putting that aside, there are other implications. This little mistake might seem like a tiny, insignificant error, but it's not, for two reasons: first, the authors' timetable leaves no time for informal review BEFORE the paper was sent out. Not best practices - had they, some of the obvious issues being pointed out would have been caught. This haste could be forgiven, but for the fact that there are no actionable outcomes discussed. It smells like some data crunchers did some work, saw an effect, and tried to rush things out without considering all (or even most) of the angles.

What this paper looks like when (or if) it's accepted for publication will likely be different from what you're seeing today. 

PeteD01

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What this paper looks like when (or if) it's accepted for publication will likely be different from what you're seeing today.

Very different indeed. I actually made a computational an error when calculating the symptomatic infection rate in the cohorts during the observation period. It is telling that I had to dig for the raw numbers and do the calculations myself. The rate is about 1.0% or less, not 0.1%. I does not change my opinion.

edit: Looked at my notes to edit my original post and found that I calculated correctly. It was just a typo.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 05:04:00 PM by PeteD01 »

PeteD01

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Maybe this has removed the brake on virulence similar to what is seen in zoonotic diseases like Ebola. In other words, the vaccinated are to the unvaccinated what bats are to humans in areas where Ebola is endemic.


The vaccinated are eating the unvaccinated? You need to read up and reassess your analogy there

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-29604204

Actually, the unvaccinated eating the vaccinated...

So the unvaccinated (people) are eating the vaccinated (bats who are infected) and getting sick is what you're saying. Still doesn't fit.

Maybe I am being a bit too dense here. But from a biological point of view, eating and being eaten are just forms of close contact, albeit unidirectional in their epidemiological consequence.
Therefore, in this particular context, it must be the vaccinated that are being eaten. Proposition of an effect on the remaining, that is the not yet eaten, population of thevaccinated would likely be met with some valid criticism as this particular type of close contact generally precludes transmission back to the susceptible population.
In any case, in other zoonoses involving bats, eating each other is not a feature. So feel free to substitute Rabies or Marburg virus for Ebola as examples for extremely virulent pathogens circulating in unaffected zoonotic reservoir organisms (bats and other animals).
So, vaccination of a substantial part of the population could conceivable create an analogous situation to such zoonoses, if the vaccine provides protection from disease but not protection from infection and transmission of the pathogen.
Thus the vaccinated population could function as a reservoir for highly virulent variants and be playing a role similar to zoonotic reservoirs in other serious diseases.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 05:53:14 PM by PeteD01 »

MudPuppy

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I was confused at first but yeah I think the analogy is too acrobatic to be a useful one

Abe

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How about unvaccinated are a dried-out forest and the vaccinated are cars dragging a broken bumper? the sparks aren't bothering us but sure are a problem for the forest!

Or we're just that guy with matches...I guess that implies intent.

PeteD01

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How about unvaccinated are a dried-out forest and the vaccinated are cars dragging a broken bumper? the sparks aren't bothering us but sure are a problem for the forest!

There we go!

PeteD01

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Here is a link to an article in The Guardian with a calculator to compute deaths over time for different scenarios.
The calculator is essentially an illustration of the effective reproduction number, R, is a value that takes into account the susceptibility of the population.
Population susceptibility is affected greatly by effectiveness of vaccination and strength and duration of naturally acquired immunity.
With no natural immunity and a committed pool of unvaccinated, population susceptibility would only decline via attrition through death, whereas very strong naturally acquired immunity decreases population susceptibility through infection alone (in the absence of mitigation attempts). The calculator assumes the latter and that is likely an appropriate assumption considering the low rate of reinfection reported in the paper from Israel discussed above.
The calculator might be useful in the context of this thread:

https://tinyurl.com/yet6z45s
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 06:25:33 AM by PeteD01 »

GuitarStv

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Well, this is good news:

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine



The FDA has fully approved the pfizer vaccine.

neo von retorch

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Well, this is good news:

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine



The FDA has fully approved the pfizer vaccine.

That was 12 days ago!

By now, we should see the huge surge in vaccinations.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-trends


ncornilsen

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Well, this is good news:

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine



The FDA has fully approved the pfizer vaccine.

That was 12 days ago!

By now, we should see the huge surge in vaccinations.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-trends



No, because the doses out there were made before approval, so they're still not approved.

(NOT what I think... just a thread I saw on FB that I tried to set straight.)

GuitarStv

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Well, this is good news:

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine



The FDA has fully approved the pfizer vaccine.

That was 12 days ago!

By now, we should see the huge surge in vaccinations.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-trends



No, because the doses out there were made before approval, so they're still not approved.

(NOT what I think... just a thread I saw on FB that I tried to set straight.)

Seriously?  What the actual fuck?

GodlessCommie

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Seriously?  What the actual fuck?

Given that a decent share of people in the US would rather die a gruesome and painful death, but not admit that the hated libs were right - this is a rather mild and harmless example.

Abe

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I have a cold I got from my son after his school started. It’s not from covid, and normally I’m irritated by being sick. Now I’m thankful that it’s mild and I just have to lay in bed for a day or so, based on other parents’ experience with this.

sonofsven

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Actual conversation with a dump truck driver who works for my excavator, who's most talented operator (Alan) was out for two weeks with covid (Alan told me last winter he would not get the vax)
"How's Alan, back at work?
"Yeah, he was really sick, he said it was bad "
"Did you get the shot yet?"
"Me? Naw."
"What? You work with a guy who just got it and was sick as a dog, and you're not not going to get vaccinated?"
"I dunno. My girlfriend works at the hospital, she had to get it, she could bring the covid home to me I guess "
"Shit, man, go get the vaccine!"
"Yeah, I dunno" shrugs shoulders.

Hopefully he figures it out.

FIPurpose

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The saddest part of all this....the narrative is the unvaccinated are white republicans (who are often the loudest)

The data says it's minorities

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/

Try again, add all of the racial minorities together and they are more vaccinated as a group than whites.

To all the people who keep trying to make this about race: please stop. Blacks are not somehow all one big monolith of people who are all vaccine hesitant. The current covid wave is not being caused by minorities.

The largest cohort of people not getting vaccinated are the almost 25% of GOP members who say that they will never get vaccinated. That is the biggest, loudest, and most infectious group out there. Not the 10% of blacks (who already make up only about 15% of the country) who are vaccine hesitant.

FIPurpose

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@FIPurpose - Can you expand on what data set I'm misinterpreting?

Nationwide:  White = 61% of population and 58% received one vaccine dose.  Vaccine gap is 5%, or 95% proportional vaccination.  (58% divided by 61%)
Black:  12% of population, 10% received one dose.   83% proportional vaccination.

This data is especially straightforward in states with large urban minority populations.   Georgia, 26% vaccinated, 32% of the population, and unfortunately 35% of total deaths.

Michigan, 13% of the population, 23% of deaths (only 10% vaccinated)

Washington DC:  46% of population, 71% of deaths.   43% vaccinated.


By raw numbers, that 5% difference in the white population is more unvaccinated people, given that 61% of the United States is Caucasian.

My bet would be that if you tried to digest why the numbers are happening the way they are:

1. African-Americans live in poorer conditions: smaller houses, multi-generational houses, lower access to good food and water
2. They are more likely to have less access to better medical care (probably a big contributor to why they have a higher death rate)
3. More likely that African-Americans feel that they cannot take a day or 2 off to handle the vaccine side-effects.
4. African-Americans are more heavily concetrated in states that have been doing a bad job in distributing vaccines (and we know that these states don't try particularly hard in certain localities)

But also, you need to think about what percentage of the state itself is vaccinated when comparing these rates. Is this a state that is 70% vaxed or still <50%? If the remaining 40% of people left to get vaccinated in a state are the most vaccine hesitant/agnostic/unwilling then how much of that remaining number are from certain demographics?

The largest polled demographic left unvaccinated by far are anti-vax, MAGA people.

But even looking at your numbers such as Georgia:

51% of the state has received at least 1 dose:

of that 51%:
26% - Black
9% - Hispanic
7% - Asian
54% - White

So the percent of the total population still unvaccinated left in the state of Georgia:
19% - Black
5% - Hispanic
<1% - Asian
30% - White

And Georgia has a far higher black population than most states. My guess is if you looked at other states statistics, the difference would be even starker. Georgia should do all it can to vaccinate all groups of people still remaining, but the number of unvaccinated whites still outnumbers urban minority populations. (though there's about 4% missing in the data above, so not sure how to categorize the 'other' group and that's also why the numbers above may not line up exactly).

Abe

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There’s a group deliberately mischaracterizing both the extent of the covid epidemic and the vaccination side effects, and that group is not poor minorities.

By the River

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There’s a group deliberately mischaracterizing both the extent of the covid epidemic and the vaccination side effects, and that group is not poor minorities.

Well, Nicki Minaj is definitely not poor but is a minority and is tweeting anti-vax info to her 22 million followers.  So I guess you are still right on the last part of your statement.

MudPuppy

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I’m still baffled by that one. How does she bot realize her cousin has an STD and is trying to play it off?

jrhampt

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There’s a group deliberately mischaracterizing both the extent of the covid epidemic and the vaccination side effects, and that group is not poor minorities.

Well, Nicki Minaj is definitely not poor but is a minority and is tweeting anti-vax info to her 22 million followers.  So I guess you are still right on the last part of your statement.

Ok, sure.  Everyone I know personally (I can think of a dozen off the top of my head) who is refusing to take the vaccine is white, except for one Hispanic person.  Almost all are white evangelical Christians (10/12).  All except one is a Trump voter.  As a group, it is very much true that white Republicans/evangelicals are spreading loads of misinformation.  Yes, there are some exceptions.  And yeah, maybe I just know a lot of white evangelical Republicans, but I live in Connecticut.  They're in the minority here.

ixtap

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BIL posts daily about how masks/vaccines don't work. What he is really saying is that they aren't 100% effective, but you will never convince him that is precisely why it is important that their use be widespread. It just means they don't work and anyone who masks or vaccinates is just an idiot.

talltexan

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AstraZeneca is getting some undeserved bad press here.

I’m from Australia, and ...

NSW hasn’t been able to control it, each day there are more cases than the previous day, and about half have been positive while in the community. Today they announced that everyone in NSW should get AstraZeneca - there’s plenty around. There is now more likelihood of dying if you’re young and unvaccinated. Putting this in context, there are still fewer than 300 cases a day, and there have been less than 10 deaths. Most of you seem to be in places where covid19 is much more rampant.

My parents live in Hays county, an exurban country in central Texas located 30 miles Southwest of Austin, Texas. They had ten deaths last week. This is in a county with 100,000 residents.

GodlessCommie

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Re: race and ethnicity of unvaccinated... It doesn't make sense to bundle all minorities together, the average socioeconomic status is so vastly different. Like, Asians are vaccinated either at or above their share of population in every state. Black Americans are at or below their share of the population in almost every state, the highest gap being 6 percentage points in Georgia. I don't have data to back it up, but I recall that the gap was wider last time I checked the page (it is updated).

White people's vaccination rate is all over the place, from 7 percentage points above their share in NY to 12 below (TN). PA also stands out, 8 below. Same with Hispanics - from -13 (!) in AZ to +5 in FL, but undervaccinated more often than not, and to a larger degree. Again, last time I checked, Latinos were farthest behind on average, but also catching up the fastest.

J Boogie

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I’m still baffled by that one. How does she bot realize her cousin has an STD and is trying to play it off?

Easy there mr. disinformation.



It's her cousin's FRIEND.

MudPuppy

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I’m still baffled by that one. How does she bot realize her cousin has an STD and is trying to play it off?

Easy there mr. disinformation.



It's her cousin's FRIEND.

My microchip made me do it

GuitarStv

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I’m still baffled by that one. How does she bot realize her cousin has an STD and is trying to play it off?

Easy there mr. disinformation.



It's her cousin's FRIEND.

My microchip made me do it

I'm a big fan of my microchip . . . with Bill Gates voice in my head I never feel lonely anymore!

MudPuppy

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What kind of lizard dog you turn into? I got bearded dragon. Mainstream exotic.

Malcat

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What kind of lizard dog you turn into? I got bearded dragon. Mainstream exotic.

I gradually turned into a cockroach and got stuck in my bedroom unable to go to work. My sister had to take care of me, but was really grossed out by my disgusting bug body. My father was a total dick about it too.

MudPuppy

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Lol what a dumb-o-crat

Malcat

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Lol what a dumb-o-crat

I'm in Canada, here we're called "Fiberals"

...cuz we tell fibs...get it??? Clever eh??

GuitarStv

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What kind of lizard dog you turn into? I got bearded dragon. Mainstream exotic.

I gradually turned into a cockroach and got stuck in my bedroom unable to go to work. My sister had to take care of me, but was really grossed out by my disgusting bug body. My father was a total dick about it too.

Sounds almost . . . Kafkaesque?

:P

Abe

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Lol what a dumb-o-crat

I'm in Canada, here we're called "Fiberals"

...cuz we tell fibs...get it??? Clever eh??

Even your insults are more polite. Here we’re called Nazis. Then they have to put the BIPAP back on or get intubated. Then we’re not called anything.

Abe

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Idaho has authorized triage for hospitals in the state due to overwhelming covid admissions. They’re also short on portable oxygen tanks, so even sending patients home with oxygen to die will be a difficult decision, despite the triage authorization. Most hospitals are not at that point except for ICU care. Since survival is fairly poor in patients requiring intubation for the current variant, they’ll likely take a back seat to other conditions with better predicted outcomes.

Based on admission and icu availability, I think West Virginia will be next. My friends there corroborate this based on drastic uptick in cases. Good news is that the other southeast states are seeing new infections and hospitalizations drop sharply as the front moves north. Deaths will take a while, but overall good sign that we’ve weathered this surge. I think this is due to true herd immunity since no mitigation measures were taken in these states. Literally just let it burn through.

We’ll have to see what happens with flu this year since anti-vax death cults are a thing now and a non-insignificant portion of the obese population in these states just took a big hit to their lungs.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 08:28:28 PM by Abe »

Poundwise

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There’s a group deliberately mischaracterizing both the extent of the covid epidemic and the vaccination side effects, and that group is not poor minorities.

Well, Nicki Minaj is definitely not poor but is a minority and is tweeting anti-vax info to her 22 million followers.  So I guess you are still right on the last part of your statement.

Ok, sure.  Everyone I know personally (I can think of a dozen off the top of my head) who is refusing to take the vaccine is white, except for one Hispanic person.  Almost all are white evangelical Christians (10/12).  All except one is a Trump voter.  As a group, it is very much true that white Republicans/evangelicals are spreading loads of misinformation.  Yes, there are some exceptions.  And yeah, maybe I just know a lot of white evangelical Republicans, but I live in Connecticut.  They're in the minority here.

But how many Black people do you know well enough to hear their vaccine status? I'm in the NY metro area and of my local friends, it's mostly younger Black people with a poorer background who have not received shots. They are not obnoxious or aggressive about it, just "hesistant" but so much inertia (yes I have been nagging) despite some being obese or having other health issues. Basically not worried enough to get their shots, like millenials of other ethnicities. Typing this led me to look into the median age of different ethnicities/races in the US and indeed Black Americans are much younger on average. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/most-common-age-among-us-racial-ethnic-groups/

I'm happy to say that the older "church ladies" have all gotten their shots and are very smug about it too. 

One Trumpy white friend, and one white friend who earns her living as a natural health guru, also have declined the vaccine for themselves and their teen children, again without posting about it (or else they hid their antivax posts from me on social media, wise choice).

jrhampt

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There’s a group deliberately mischaracterizing both the extent of the covid epidemic and the vaccination side effects, and that group is not poor minorities.

Well, Nicki Minaj is definitely not poor but is a minority and is tweeting anti-vax info to her 22 million followers.  So I guess you are still right on the last part of your statement.

Ok, sure.  Everyone I know personally (I can think of a dozen off the top of my head) who is refusing to take the vaccine is white, except for one Hispanic person.  Almost all are white evangelical Christians (10/12).  All except one is a Trump voter.  As a group, it is very much true that white Republicans/evangelicals are spreading loads of misinformation.  Yes, there are some exceptions.  And yeah, maybe I just know a lot of white evangelical Republicans, but I live in Connecticut.  They're in the minority here.

But how many Black people do you know well enough to hear their vaccine status? I'm in the NY metro area and of my local friends, it's mostly younger Black people with a poorer background who have not received shots. They are not obnoxious or aggressive about it, just "hesistant" but so much inertia (yes I have been nagging) despite some being obese or having other health issues. Basically not worried enough to get their shots, like millenials of other ethnicities. Typing this led me to look into the median age of different ethnicities/races in the US and indeed Black Americans are much younger on average. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/most-common-age-among-us-racial-ethnic-groups/

I'm happy to say that the older "church ladies" have all gotten their shots and are very smug about it too. 

One Trumpy white friend, and one white friend who earns her living as a natural health guru, also have declined the vaccine for themselves and their teen children, again without posting about it (or else they hid their antivax posts from me on social media, wise choice).

There are fewer Black people in my social circle than white people or Latinas, but my Black friends are all vaccinated. Most are professionals and/or in the medical field and around my age.

GuitarStv

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There’s a group deliberately mischaracterizing both the extent of the covid epidemic and the vaccination side effects, and that group is not poor minorities.

Well, Nicki Minaj is definitely not poor but is a minority and is tweeting anti-vax info to her 22 million followers.  So I guess you are still right on the last part of your statement.

Ok, sure.  Everyone I know personally (I can think of a dozen off the top of my head) who is refusing to take the vaccine is white, except for one Hispanic person.  Almost all are white evangelical Christians (10/12).  All except one is a Trump voter.  As a group, it is very much true that white Republicans/evangelicals are spreading loads of misinformation.  Yes, there are some exceptions.  And yeah, maybe I just know a lot of white evangelical Republicans, but I live in Connecticut.  They're in the minority here.

But how many Black people do you know well enough to hear their vaccine status? I'm in the NY metro area and of my local friends, it's mostly younger Black people with a poorer background who have not received shots. They are not obnoxious or aggressive about it, just "hesistant" but so much inertia (yes I have been nagging) despite some being obese or having other health issues. Basically not worried enough to get their shots, like millenials of other ethnicities. Typing this led me to look into the median age of different ethnicities/races in the US and indeed Black Americans are much younger on average. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/most-common-age-among-us-racial-ethnic-groups/

I'm happy to say that the older "church ladies" have all gotten their shots and are very smug about it too. 

One Trumpy white friend, and one white friend who earns her living as a natural health guru, also have declined the vaccine for themselves and their teen children, again without posting about it (or else they hid their antivax posts from me on social media, wise choice).

There are fewer Black people in my social circle than white people or Latinas, but my Black friends are all vaccinated. Most are professionals and/or in the medical field and around my age.

538 did some good number crunching a couple months ago on the anti-vax groups . . .


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/unvaccinated-america-in-5-charts/

Abe

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There’s a group deliberately mischaracterizing both the extent of the covid epidemic and the vaccination side effects, and that group is not poor minorities.

Well, Nicki Minaj is definitely not poor but is a minority and is tweeting anti-vax info to her 22 million followers.  So I guess you are still right on the last part of your statement.

Ok, sure.  Everyone I know personally (I can think of a dozen off the top of my head) who is refusing to take the vaccine is white, except for one Hispanic person.  Almost all are white evangelical Christians (10/12).  All except one is a Trump voter.  As a group, it is very much true that white Republicans/evangelicals are spreading loads of misinformation.  Yes, there are some exceptions.  And yeah, maybe I just know a lot of white evangelical Republicans, but I live in Connecticut.  They're in the minority here.

But how many Black people do you know well enough to hear their vaccine status? I'm in the NY metro area and of my local friends, it's mostly younger Black people with a poorer background who have not received shots. They are not obnoxious or aggressive about it, just "hesistant" but so much inertia (yes I have been nagging) despite some being obese or having other health issues. Basically not worried enough to get their shots, like millenials of other ethnicities. Typing this led me to look into the median age of different ethnicities/races in the US and indeed Black Americans are much younger on average. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/most-common-age-among-us-racial-ethnic-groups/

I'm happy to say that the older "church ladies" have all gotten their shots and are very smug about it too. 

One Trumpy white friend, and one white friend who earns her living as a natural health guru, also have declined the vaccine for themselves and their teen children, again without posting about it (or else they hid their antivax posts from me on social media, wise choice).

There are fewer Black people in my social circle than white people or Latinas, but my Black friends are all vaccinated. Most are professionals and/or in the medical field and around my age.

538 did some good number crunching a couple months ago on the anti-vax groups . . .


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/unvaccinated-america-in-5-charts/

Nicki Minaj aside (I assume she's a minority and probably rich otherwise wouldn't have 22 million followers on social media?), I guess the data bears me out.

sui generis

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Uh oh, y'all, they've caught on to us!  Some Breitbart guy, John Nolte, has figured out that it's a vast leftwing conspiracy to TELL everybody to get vaccinated, knowing that conservatives wouldn't and that we could, in that way, use reverse psychology to finally kill them off! 

Quote
The organized left is deliberately putting unvaccinated Trump supporters in an impossible position where they can either NOT get a life-saving vaccine or CAN feel like cucks caving to the ugliest, smuggest bullies in the world.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/

Quote
In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead? 
Quoted in lots of pieces, but I haven't been able to link to original. 

Rabbit-hole: Is my search algorithm so biased that it won't return conservative results to me even when I put the author's name, the source and a quote from the article?  I only get results to center or left news sites that are quoting him. Jesus, our world really sucks right now.

Back on topic: If this is what gives these holdouts permission to get vaccinated and end this fucking neverending pandemic and stop being a burden on us and our hospitals, so be it.  Fine, just tell everyone you guys FINALLY figured out us liberals were using reverse psychology to prevent you from getting vaccinated and now that you know just how evil we are, you are gonna get vaccinated just to piss us off.  I'll take it.

OtherJen

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Uh oh, y'all, they've caught on to us!  Some Breitbart guy, John Nolte, has figured out that it's a vast leftwing conspiracy to TELL everybody to get vaccinated, knowing that conservatives wouldn't and that we could, in that way, use reverse psychology to finally kill them off! 

Quote
The organized left is deliberately putting unvaccinated Trump supporters in an impossible position where they can either NOT get a life-saving vaccine or CAN feel like cucks caving to the ugliest, smuggest bullies in the world.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/

Quote
In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead? 
Quoted in lots of pieces, but I haven't been able to link to original. 

Rabbit-hole: Is my search algorithm so biased that it won't return conservative results to me even when I put the author's name, the source and a quote from the article?  I only get results to center or left news sites that are quoting him. Jesus, our world really sucks right now.

Back on topic: If this is what gives these holdouts permission to get vaccinated and end this fucking neverending pandemic and stop being a burden on us and our hospitals, so be it.  Fine, just tell everyone you guys FINALLY figured out us liberals were using reverse psychology to prevent you from getting vaccinated and now that you know just how evil we are, you are gonna get vaccinated just to piss us off.  I'll take it.

Seriously, whatever they need to tell themselves to get the fucking shots in their fucking arms before our medical system collapses due to overload and staff burnout. Being called an ugly, smug bully doesn't faze me.

GodlessCommie

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Yeah, that Breitbart article is something. "Look what you made us do - you made us kill ourselves!"

CodingHare

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Seriously, the amount of partisanship though.  There is no possibility that the conservative party leadership was wrong or stupid, so it must somehow be the left's fault that R's are refusing the vaccines based on party lines.  Mindboggling.  Very consistent with the party of personal responsibility--it's your fault we are lemmings!