How much money do you make?

[TreeLeaf]

How much money do you personally make from your job/active income sources, as an individual, per year? (Please do not include spouse / family income).

I created this poll after reading through this thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-job-title-and-how-much-do-you-earn/ and noticing a lot of high incomes reported in that thread.

I was wondering if there was some sort of selection bias in that thread where low income people did not want to post their income, but may be more likely to vote in an anonymous poll.

The top of each income range is approximately the mean income for that household quintile, plus some rounding, as taken from this website: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/household-income-quintiles

Thanks for voting!

[ATtiny85]

I’m glad you didn’t phrase it with “earn”…

[TreeLeaf]

I’m glad you didn’t phrase it with “earn”…

I mean - I can always change it, if you would like?

[simonsez]

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-job-title-and-how-much-do-you-earn/

There are 22 pages of a similar idea if you'd like to wade through those.

[mizzourah2006]

Yeah, if you go to that thread you can see that this forum tends to trend towards higher earners. I think the entire FIRE movement trends towards higher earners.

[TreeLeaf]

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-job-title-and-how-much-do-you-earn/

There are 22 pages of a similar idea if you'd like to wade through those.

This is actually the reason I started this poll.

I waded through all 22 pages and am curious if more low income people will respond if it were an anonymous poll.  I am wondering if there is a selection bias of high income people responding to that thread and if this poll will show different results or not since it is completely anonymous and people don't feel the need to post their job title.

I'm kind of amazed at some of the income levels reported in that thread, frankly, and how much they differ from the general population.

Are low income people simply not interested in FIRE?

[Omy]

Low income people are interested in paying their bills...Maslow's Hierarchy and all that.

[Villanelle]

I'm suuuuuper low income as an individual, but DH makes a lot, lot more than me.  I'm basically RE, with a side hustle that I have because it's easy, doesn't take much time, and will be nice to have it it lasts through some of FIRE for us. So I'm not sure how valid my vote is, but I cast it anyway.

[TreeLeaf]

I'm suuuuuper low income as an individual, but DH makes a lot, lot more than me.  I'm basically RE, with a side hustle that I have because it's easy, doesn't take much time, and will be nice to have it it lasts through some of FIRE for us. So I'm not sure how valid my vote is, but I cast it anyway.

Thanks for the explanation.

I was actually just looking at the poll thinking - those 0-15k people must be retired and working an easy side hustle. So it's nice to have confirmation in your case.

Thanks. :)

[uniwelder]

My wife and I, early 40’s, are ready to FIRE with incomes that peaked at 65+70k. This forum group does seem to skew higher, but it’s definitely possible at more moderate incomes.

[BicycleB]

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-job-title-and-how-much-do-you-earn/

There are 22 pages of a similar idea if you'd like to wade through those.

This is actually the reason I started this poll.

I waded through all 22 pages and am curious if more low income people will respond if it were an anonymous poll.  I am wondering if there is a selection bias of high income people responding to that thread and if this poll will show different results or not since it is completely anonymous and people don't feel the need to post their job title.

I'm kind of amazed at some of the income levels reported in that thread, frankly, and how much they differ from the general population.

Are low income people simply not interested in FIRE?

I suspect there is a selection bias of high income people responding to that thread, but unsure this poll will show different results. I suspect that the topic alone induces selection of high income people responding.

I responded with "zero, retired" because I am currently retired (last paid job 2014, last full time 2013).

Fwiw, I think that both the Retire Early topic of the forum and the income question of the thread each add selection bias, jointly resulting in the wide difference between the earlier poll results vs the US population.

[oldladystache]

I answered 0 retired, but I'm watching a neighbor's dog this weekend and she'll probably give me $100 or more.

[TreeLeaf]

I answered 0 retired, but I'm watching a neighbor's dog this weekend and she'll probably give me $100 or more.

Oh wow. $100 for watching a dog for a weekend. Getting paid to play with dogs and go on walks is like the ultimate side hustle.

Thanks for voting in the poll! :)

[NotJen]

I didn't vote.  I'm FIREd, but have made between $4,000 to (possibly this year) $16,000 each year I've been retired.

[davisgang90]

I voted $0-15,000. I'm retired, living on my military pension and VA disability.

I work a couple very part time jobs to make enough income to be able to continue to contribute to my Roth IRA.

[TreeLeaf]

I voted $0-15,000. I'm retired, living on my military pension and VA disability.

I work a couple very part time jobs to make enough income to be able to continue to contribute to my Roth IRA.

Interesting.

At this point I'm just going to assume everyone in the 0-15k range of income is retired working a side hustle or part time job.

Thanks for voting!

[Omy]

DH and I have rental income. We consider ourselves FIREd. Would I divide net rental income in half (since there are 2 of us) for the purpose of the poll? Or would it be zero since it's a mostly passive income stream?

[Cranky]

Not a cent!

[Villanelle]

I voted $0-15,000. I'm retired, living on my military pension and VA disability.

I work a couple very part time jobs to make enough income to be able to continue to contribute to my Roth IRA.

Interesting.

At this point I'm just going to assume everyone in the 0-15k range of income is retired working a side hustle or part time job.

Thanks for voting!

That, or is not a primary wage earner.  Like a stay-at-home parent with a small side hustle, or something along those lines.  (That's me, only without the "parent" part.)

I'm definitely not FI, and when I quite my last "real" job, it was with the idea of moving overseas for 3 years and returning to FT work.  Well, that 3 years turned into ten, and by then my already not-high-income skills (that exact job in that location probably pays maybe $60) were outdated enough that I couldn't even get my old job (comparable back) and I was less desirable a hire than a new college grad.  Since we didn't need the money, neither spouse nor I saw a reason for me to get a job that might pay $40k/yr (and also increase expenses), I just didn't go back to real work.  But our current and preferred lifestyle certainly doesn't allow me to now work, except for DH's income. 

Oh, and OMY makes a point I hadn't considered.  We do have rental income, though of course a fair amount of that is offset by rental expenses.  I do basically all the work for our rentals.  (Well, we have a PM since we are across the country and sometimes world.) 

[TreeLeaf]

DH and I have rental income. We consider ourselves FIREd. Would I divide net rental income in half (since there are 2 of us) for the purpose of the poll? Or would it be zero since it's a mostly passive income stream?

Oh...good question.

I would divide it by half and include it only if you think of it as a job. i.e. you spend so much time on the properties you think of it as a part time job.

If you view it as a passive income stream in retirement then I would not include it.

How is that for a conflicting answer? lol

[Omy]

It depends on what day it is...ha! Mostly passive, but occasionally worse than our jobs ever were. I guess I will go with "retired", but please don't call the retirement police.

[Loren Ver]

Voted 0-retired, since that is what we are now.

But back in our last full year of working 2018.  I made in the 80K range and DH made in the 30k range.  Both full time, both college educated, both STEM.  We finally broke the 100k range as a team- woohoo!!  Just in time to retire. 

We are not all crazy high earners, some of us are just crazy ;). 

Loren

[TreeLeaf]

Voted "$0 - I'm Retired". The first 10 years or so I lived off investments and taxable savings plus a few hundred from a VA benefit.  Once I turned 50 I had a small Gov pension around $900/month to add to my FIRE investment income. No job or earned income at all in since pulling the plug on my Gov job -shortly before the great recession (ouch!). Didn't need to go back to working then but did some belt tightening.

ETA: I was a fairly low income blue collar earner - enlisted military followed by a Gov compliance job with required a degree but was very blue collar. So depending on one's circumstances FIRE can be had by lower income earners.

Oh wow...I did not even realize someone could get a gov job and get a pension at 50. Awesome!

[snic]

Oh wow...I did not even realize someone could get a gov job and get a pension at 50. Awesome!

Certainly this is not uncommon for many local governments. You can work 20 or 25 years as a police officer or sanitation worker or whatever and then retire with a full pension right around age 50, and sometimes considerably younger. If I remember right, sometimes you can even get health insurance benefits.

[Tass]

I'm now making $75k, but I have been on these forums for almost 6 years and I was making $30-38k until last November, after I finished grad school. My finances were/are independent from my partner's. There are lower wage earners around here too!

[SpareChange]

Might be TMI, but since I was recently looking at my SS earnings record, why not share:). Starting in 2015, I these numbers should be padded by a few thousand per year to account for employer 403b matches. Net worth was about -50k at end of 2011. Now about 620k. No real estate. Broad index funds only. No dependents.

2022  $64,921   
2021   $67,911   
2020   $56,100   
2019   $79,049   
2018   $91,382   
2017   $85,174   
2016   $84,305   
2015   $89,449   
2014   $74,018   
2013   $60,970   
2012   $37,783   
2011   $13,078

[ATtiny85]

However if I stayed in the military (coast guard) for a full 20 years I could have retired at 38 with a pension and medical for life. Still kick myself about that.

At what would have my 20 year mark (army officer, left at just over 5) I calculated what my pension would be and wrote it on my whiteboard at my desk. I’d point to it to explain my poor attitude. I was commissioned when I was 21. Kick myself a bit, but there are some really horrible managers in the Army and it is tougher to escape normally relative to civilian world.

[Just Joe]

However if I stayed in the military (coast guard) for a full 20 years I could have retired at 38 with a pension and medical for life. Still kick myself about that.

At what would have my 20 year mark (army officer, left at just over 5) I calculated what my pension would be and wrote it on my whiteboard at my desk. I’d point to it to explain my poor attitude. I was commissioned when I was 21. Kick myself a bit, but there are some really horrible managers in the Army and it is tougher to escape normally relative to civilian world.

I was reminded of my ~$14K income in the 1990s as a lowly enlisted person. Yep, directly contributed to my decision to return to college at the end of my first enlistment.

[Captain Cactus]

42 years old.  Could live off my VA pension alone if I didn’t have family to support.  So I work a job and make money and health insurance for my family (I could get mine entirely through VA). 

If I were single, I’d be in Thailand, living cheap. 

But I have responsibilities so I work and live in Connecticut.

[TreeLeaf]

Only 89 responses.

I was kind of hoping we could hit 100. That sounds like a nice, round number. :)

[BicycleB]

Maybe the responses will continue compounding over time, like interest. Success is inevitable! :)

(Anyway 10 more to go, right?)

[Log]

As a freelance performer pretty fresh out of school I'm answering with only one data point (2022 income), which just barely put me in the $40-70k range. I thought about voting in the $15-40k since that's what it'd be if I averaged 2021 and 2022, but 2021 I was still finishing school and the performing arts were still pretty screwed up by COVID. It's hopefully onward and upward from here, so I think that $40k+ will be more representative, and I (optimistically) envision myself breaking through that $110k within a few years.

[Cassie]

In the 11 years that I have been retired I have had income from some consulting or teaching except for 3 years. What I have earned has ranged from $600-22k a year.

[Metalcat]

Only 89 responses.

I was kind of hoping we could hit 100. That sounds like a nice, round number. :)

People here are a little prickly about answering pointless polls. You would get a better response if you had a compelling reason for asking, and framed it in a way that makes sense, such as why you would include some income and not other income.

This is the problem with polls here, the aggregate data is often so meaningless. Should I answer with my current income while I'm in school or my expected income once I graduate? Why, why not? What value are you looking to get from the data.

Unless I know what the value of answering is, I'm not likely to answer.

A lot of newer members start polls, and it gets kind of tedious watching them devolve into a bunch of people bickering about what should count and what shouldn't and which exceptions are what and why, and in the end, the OP didn't even have a clear purpose for the info anyway, so it was just a waste of time trying to define parameters to a pointless poll.

That's why we can be a bit uncooperative with just rando polls or appeals for our personal data.

If you want cooperation with a poll, you may have to put some effort into explaining it's purpose, explaining the rationale for the categories as they are, and how you want people to answer.

[Kris]

Agree with @Metalcat . What we want is the prospect of a meaty discussion, not a meaningless one. Overly general questions tend to lead to boring and chaotic garbage pile threads here.

But I will participate in a poll instantly if I think the resulting thread will potentially introduce me to concepts I am unfamiliar with or offer perspectives I haven’t seen well-argued before.

As an aside, Metalcat, did you know there is an account here for a “Metalcap”?

[TreeLeaf]

Only 89 responses.

I was kind of hoping we could hit 100. That sounds like a nice, round number. :)

People here are a little prickly about answering pointless polls. You would get a better response if you had a compelling reason for asking, and framed it in a way that makes sense, such as why you would include some income and not other income.

This is the problem with polls here, the aggregate data is often so meaningless. Should I answer with my current income while I'm in school or my expected income once I graduate? Why, why not? What value are you looking to get from the data.

Unless I know what the value of answering is, I'm not likely to answer.

A lot of newer members start polls, and it gets kind of tedious watching them devolve into a bunch of people bickering about what should count and what shouldn't and which exceptions are what and why, and in the end, the OP didn't even have a clear purpose for the info anyway, so it was just a waste of time trying to define parameters to a pointless poll.

That's why we can be a bit uncooperative with just rando polls or appeals for our personal data.

If you want cooperation with a poll, you may have to put some effort into explaining it's purpose, explaining the rationale for the categories as they are, and how you want people to answer.

Interesting.

Thank you for the feedback. :)

ETA: I modified the first post based on your feedback.

I suppose the reasoning of the poll isn't the greatest, but I think if anything it shows there are far more high income people here than one would expect from the general population.

[TreeLeaf]

I guess I will add that - I have no particular reason for creating this poll.

I'm not a reporter, or a writer, or a data analyst, etc. There is no higher purpose.

I was reading through the what is your income and what do you do for a living thread and saw so many high incomes reported there I wondered if a poll of income ranges would show a similar result, or if there is some sort of selection bias where low income people did not want to report their income in that tread.

I'm looking for active income, current, from whatever active job or business you may have.

Thanks for voting. :)

[Log]

...I was reading through the what is your income and what do you do for a living thread and saw so many high incomes reported there I wondered if a poll of income ranges would show a similar result, or if there is some sort of selection bias where low income people did not want to report their income in that tread...

If anything, I think the selection bias may go the other way in this particular community. People with lower incomes might be more eager to share how they're making it work on a lower income, and people with higher incomes might be embarrassed to admit that they're not especially frugal and are merely over-coming extravagant spending through even more extravagant income.

[TreeLeaf]

...I was reading through the what is your income and what do you do for a living thread and saw so many high incomes reported there I wondered if a poll of income ranges would show a similar result, or if there is some sort of selection bias where low income people did not want to report their income in that tread...

If anything, I think the selection bias may go the other way in this particular community. People with lower incomes might be more eager to share how they're making it work on a lower income, and people with higher incomes might be embarrassed to admit that they're not especially frugal and are merely over-coming extravagant spending through even more extravagant income.

That would be even more interesting to me, honestly, if that turns out to be the case.

I guess part of what I am wondering about also is, does FIRE attract high income people?
Or do people who adopt FIRE as a goal then seek out high income careers to accomplish early retirement?

Does the chicken come first or the egg?

[Log]

...I was reading through the what is your income and what do you do for a living thread and saw so many high incomes reported there I wondered if a poll of income ranges would show a similar result, or if there is some sort of selection bias where low income people did not want to report their income in that tread...

If anything, I think the selection bias may go the other way in this particular community. People with lower incomes might be more eager to share how they're making it work on a lower income, and people with higher incomes might be embarrassed to admit that they're not especially frugal and are merely over-coming extravagant spending through even more extravagant income.

That would be even more interesting to me, honestly, if that turns out to be the case.

I guess part of what I am wondering about also is, does FIRE attract high income people?
Or do people who adopt FIRE as a goal then seek out high income careers to accomplish early retirement?

Does the chicken come first or the egg?

I would say almost certainly both. I think that people who have high incomes are far more likely to see FIRE as attainable when they’re introduced to the possibility, rather than dismissing it as impossible in order to protect their ego. And people who might not have been especially concerned with money before being introduced to FIRE  become much more interested in pursuing a higher income once they see money=freedom rather than money=consumption of junk.

I can attest to the latter myself. My career goals have become much more money oriented since reading MMM, because I see it as a means to pursue whatever goals I want later in my career, rather than cutting myself off from the less lucrative (but more fulfilling) career paths I was previously focused on. I realized instead of being a starving artist for my whole career, I can do the money thing first and then do whatever I want. (And since money and prestige go hand-in-hand, doing the money thing first means that when I go to do the fun stuff, I’ll have the status to be choosy about my collaborators, which is also more fun).

[Metalcat]

Agree with @Metalcat . What we want is the prospect of a meaty discussion, not a meaningless one. Overly general questions tend to lead to boring and chaotic garbage pile threads here.

But I will participate in a poll instantly if I think the resulting thread will potentially introduce me to concepts I am unfamiliar with or offer perspectives I haven’t seen well-argued before.

As an aside, Metalcat, did you know there is an account here for a “Metalcap”?

Really??!! How delightfully random!

[jrhampt]

Well, also some of us have been here a while and our incomes have increased quite a bit since then.  I was probably at around 50k/yr or less when I first joined the forum, and now am over 200k. 

[OurTown]

I suppose the purpose of the poll is whether one can succeed at FIRE on a lower income.  In theory, the answer is "yes" because we have some control over our cost of living by way of frugality.  That is the whole point of the "shockingly simple math" that is the basis of MMM.  In practice, it is probably true that higher income individuals have an easier time succeeding at FIRE because they can arbitrage their lifestyle downward without cutting any truly necessary expenses and just save the remainder. 

[LennStar]

I think it would be more useful if you asked A) before or after tax/insurances and B) what's that relative to your country, and benefit level.

I for example earn a median East Germany income (which is half of the median for Munich). In the end thats ~1800 dollar per month. But I am health insured, have 30 days of personal holidays (plus ~10 state holidays) and hours more or less when I want (40h work per week).

Socialism! 

btw. My savings rate is roughly 40%. I only need my feet to get to work.

[Log]

I suppose the purpose of the poll is whether one can succeed at FIRE on a lower income.  In theory, the answer is "yes" because we have some control over our cost of living by way of frugality.  That is the whole point of the "shockingly simple math" that is the basis of MMM.  In practice, it is probably true that higher income individuals have an easier time succeeding at FIRE because they can arbitrage their lifestyle downward without cutting any truly necessary expenses and just save the remainder.

Yeah, it’s easy to talk about it being possible on lower incomes from the comfort and security of a higher income… but almost anyone doing this on a truly low income is forgoing things that are far more important than luxuries. It’s easy to go a few years without any medical expenses while you’re young and healthy. That doesn’t necessarily mean it will be sustainable.

Aside from healthcare, the housing crisis is making non-traditional housing arrangements increasingly valuable for savings. Living in a van or on a boat or the like is doable, but obviously not for everyone.

The belief at the heart of MMM is that you can live your best life while spending a lot less money… but below a certain income, people are certainly not “living their best life” anymore. Sacrificing luxuries is not much sacrifice, but at a certain point the only way to get spending down is to start sacrificing things that are essential to being a healthy, socially connected, thriving person.

[Cranky]

Plus, I think that plenty of people are here for things besides FIRE.

We were never high earners but are pretty frugal, so we’re just regular retired. I think there’s a group that is interested in FIRE because they hate their jobs, and a group that’s just frugal, and a group that’s interested in investment of DIY…

[Metalcat]

Plus, I think that plenty of people are here for things besides FIRE.

We were never high earners but are pretty frugal, so we’re just regular retired. I think there’s a group that is interested in FIRE because they hate their jobs, and a group that’s just frugal, and a group that’s interested in investment of DIY…

I'm here because of MMM's discussions of health and happiness. I actually don't give a flying fuck about retiring or investing, lol.

[Villanelle]

My spending has stayed about the same (relative to inflation and COL location) in the ~10 years since I stared reading the blog then posting.  When I started, I was on the higher end of spenders here--maybe the 75 percentile.  Now, I feel like I'm probably at 25p.  And that's just because the scale has shifted around me, not because I've changed. 

Take that for what it's worth.

And yeah, the poll doesn't really tell you much because you can't compare the incomes to where people are in their FIRE journeys.  Take my response, for example.  I'm part of a much higher earning couple, so it's not like I'm actually FIRE on >$15k, or even moving toward FIRE on that amount.  So it's not really a relevant data point to anything.