How it feels to be blind in your mind

[arebelspy]

I also don't make pictures in my head (well, I do get vague Sudoku ghosts ) but I definitely dream visuals - if I wake up during or right after a dream I can remember seeing the visuals like I remember seeing a movie, but they fade so fast and I can't recreate them. 

This exactly.

So after I can describe, list form, like I can anything else I've noted, but I can't picture it.

But my question is do you think your inability to visualize is related to your reported non-dreaming experience? Are all people with this condition unable to dream in images?

That is the opposite of what we said.  Added bolding.

I dream visually, and know it when I wake up, but I can't picture it.

Just like I know after I watch a movie, and close my eyes, that I saw a movie, but I can't picture the movie.

Oh okay, I thought you had said in other threads (about lucid dreaming) that you don't dream at all, not that you just don't remember it or visualize it after the fact. My mistake, thanks for the clarification.

Ah, gotcha. 

Yeah, I can lucid dream, it just doesn't do much for me, so I don't bother. 

[Metric Mouse]

This is enlightening.  I had so many thoughts on this, so I started this reply as I read through other replies.

When I was younger, I thought in pictures.  I had trouble communicating, because I would see the picture, then try to describe it in words.  But I would see 100 pictures per second, so my words would always fall behind, and I would even forget what I was saying, because I was concentrating on the pictures.  Written communication has always been better for me (even though I'm not a great speller).  I always felt I was different in this regard.

I'm not exactly sure when the change happened, maybe it was in high school or maybe it was after my car wreck shortly after I graduated (no signs of head injury), but now I don't really think in pictures anymore.  I still sort of have the pictures, but I process them subconsciously, and think more about the ideas.  Still no words, but these translate better to words.  Although, I feel like it's a slower process, although maybe some of that has to do with aging. 

When I was young, given a math problem, I would just "see" the answer.  I would have troubles explaining why it was correct.  I learned algebra when I was 6 or so.  When I actually took the course, I struggled a lot, because even though I had the correct answer, I had troubles showing my work.  When I learned to do this, I feel like my brain was rewired, and I could no longer just see the answer, but I could follow the path to the answer, which takes a lot longer.  So maybe this started the change with the pictures. 

So, I naturally think visually, but I totally understand aphantasia.  If you say think of the beach, I might think of sand + salt water + sun + the concept of ocean smell (I don't actually smell it) + sea shells + hammock.  I add them one at a time to a concept, but not really an image.  The longer I think about it, the more details I add.  After a point, if I have a specific memory of a beach, I might pull that out, but it's not something that comes quickly, it might take a few minutes to get to that point.  With the beach example, I lived by a beach for two years, less than two years ago, so to say it takes minutes, it seems like eternity, and I usually don't make it there unless I'm alone.  Similarly if I think of my mom.  I might feel love, but to see her takes time.  And it's usually in black and white, or really black and red, you know, what you see when you close your eyes.

When reading, I do see things, not like a movie, more like how I think with flashes of images.  I can create an image for someone, but it usually has nothing to do with how the author described that person.  I only saw the first Harry Potter before reading the books.  So while I had images for some of the characters, I completely created the others.  Ginny looked nothing like the movie Ginny, although Umbridge was pretty close.  But Rowling was pretty brief in her descriptions, and I liked that.  I attempted and failed at reading Lord of the Rings, because of all the details.  I never could put them together to create something.  Actions and talking are important to me when reading. 

I have no inner monologue.  I always thought that concept in TV shows was genius!  Evidently that's just how most people think.  I do sometimes have music going on in my head.  I can "speak" in my head.

And for the fluid vs crystal intelligence, mine is super fluid.  I'm an engineer, and in college, as a professor would start deriving a proof, I would finish before he would, sometimes dozens of steps ahead.  I was very very good at those types of image problems. 

Emotions are also a problem for me.

The "I don't know" and the "what are you thinking about - nothing" are definitely me.

I have troubles extrapolating what people look like.  Like if I haven't seen a friend since high school, it is likely I won't recognize them.  And if I've met you once, I won't remember your name at all, no matter how many times I said it in my head trying to remember it.  I'm pretty good at "I know you somehow..."

I know facts about my past, but I have few memories going back more than a few years.

I'm great at directions.  I usually have to orient North once at a new location (like if I've driven a hundred miles), but otherwise, it takes me a second to figure out where North is.  But I'm horrible at distances.  I can get the order of magnitude down, but is that car 100 feet in front of me or 500 feet?  I really have no idea.

This is interesting.  Most of the people in this thread have said their different way of thinking causes them no issues at all.  It's interesting to hear a perspective of someone with a different thought process that is so foreign that it makes communicating and performing some daily functions difficult.  Thank you for sharing; I'd love to hear more about it.

[LadyStache in Baja]

Really fascinating.  Going to read the article next. I've dreamed in words before.... As if my mind was reading a novel.  Everytime it happens I wake up really excited but I never manage to be able to recall much of it... It fades quickly. 

[MrMoogle]

This is enlightening.  I had so many thoughts on this, so I started this reply as I read through other replies.

When I was younger, I thought in pictures.  I had trouble communicating, because I would see the picture, then try to describe it in words.  But I would see 100 pictures per second, so my words would always fall behind, and I would even forget what I was saying, because I was concentrating on the pictures.  Written communication has always been better for me (even though I'm not a great speller).  I always felt I was different in this regard.

This is interesting.  Most of the people in this thread have said their different way of thinking causes them no issues at all.  It's interesting to hear a perspective of someone with a different thought process that is so foreign that it makes communicating and performing some daily functions difficult.  Thank you for sharing; I'd love to hear more about it.

Most of my issues can be found on the autism spectrum, so I may be on the functioning side of that.  I've never been diagnosed, and I have no visual indicators, but I could see how my mind could function like someone who had it. 

[Papa Mustache]

Wow, really fascinating, thanks Lifejoy. 

I sometimes sub-vocalise while I'm reading, but more often I don't. I generally don't have a strong visual mental image of characters that I am reading about though, unless I concentrate quite hard - by which I mean that I can conjure up images of my favourite characters right now, but reading a book is not like watching a video on the inside of my eyelids - I don't see the characters acting out the story.

I also have the inner monologue, very similar to how ARS describes his wife's.  Plus I also sometimes 'hear voices' which I can identify as other people's.  These are usually people I've just spent time with, and generally people who I find it difficult to be around, my Mum, a friend who I had a difficult relationship with.  These are sometimes easily audible, sometimes it's hard to make out what they are saying - but it's generally critical.  I usually interpret it as a sign that I'm over-stimulated and stressed.   I've heard that hearing voices is OK, so long as you are aware that the voices are coming from the inside of your head.  It's when you think they are coming from outside your head that it's a problem... eek, I hope so.

What's it like when you are occupied with some repetitive task? Worse or better?

I find that when I am doing something repetitive - mowing grass especially - my mind wanders and ruminates about stuff - usually something I'm conflicted or stressed about. Say, if I had a disagreement with someone (which doesn't happen often thankfully) I can't turn it off easily once it gets rolling. Can exacerbate my stress about that topic. Doesn't happen much otherwise.

[Papa Mustache]

For those who can't visualize spatially - how do you do at athletic games (playing them)? I'm not very good at them so I'm visualizing trajectories. Without that I'd be hopeless.

[GuitarStv]

For those who can't visualize spatially - how do you do at athletic games (playing them)? I'm not very good at them so I'm visualizing trajectories. Without that I'd be hopeless.

In most sporting competition there isn't time to mentally work out angles and stuff.  I've never visualized trajectories while playing sports . . . you eventually drill enough to recognize certain situations and your body just reacts instinctively.

[arebelspy]

For those who can't visualize spatially - how do you do at athletic games (playing them)? I'm not very good at them so I'm visualizing trajectories. Without that I'd be hopeless.

You can still calculate, you just don't picture anything visually.

[Metric Mouse]

For those who can't visualize spatially - how do you do at athletic games (playing them)? I'm not very good at them so I'm visualizing trajectories. Without that I'd be hopeless.

In most sporting competition there isn't time to mentally work out angles and stuff.  I've never visualized trajectories while playing sports . . . you eventually drill enough to recognize certain situations and your body just reacts instinctively.

What about billiards? I suppose that applies - if one trains enough, their muscle memory takes over and one doesn't need to visualize the balls bouncing off the bumpers.

[GuitarStv]

For those who can't visualize spatially - how do you do at athletic games (playing them)? I'm not very good at them so I'm visualizing trajectories. Without that I'd be hopeless.

In most sporting competition there isn't time to mentally work out angles and stuff.  I've never visualized trajectories while playing sports . . . you eventually drill enough to recognize certain situations and your body just reacts instinctively.

What about billiards? I suppose that applies - if one trains enough, their muscle memory takes over and one doesn't need to visualize the balls bouncing off the bumpers.

Billiards is a great example.  There are many guys who are amazing at calculating angles in Physics and realize when they hit the pool table that calculations are largely useless.  Subtle things like the quality of felt on a particular pool table, the consistency/accuracy of striking the cue ball and how that limits particular shots, the effect of adding extra chalk to the cue tip, etc. effects the game too much.

There are always too many variables.  Your brain creates a shorthand to deal with the variables by recognizing mental scenes and scenarios.  To be great at any sport (or music) you have to reach a point where you've practiced enough to subconsciously react properly.

[Papa Mustache]

I was thinking of trials bikes and mtn bikes - going slow and picking a path over obstacles or planning a jump. Guns. Archery. Billiards too. Frisbee. Soccer when you're a goalie trying to smack the ball down field. Those sort of situations. I agree - when it is a sport and you're in a race against another player its just muscle memory and experience. I don't excel at any sport well enough to be at that level.

[Lis]

Wow, this has been really fascinating!

I'm wondering if this is a spectrum instead of a yes or no situation. For me, one train of thought can spiral into a hundred things. Going back to arebelspy's example of cat-horse-motorcycle, I might see a cat, and it might remind me of a cat from childhood, and that time I put him in a silly costume, but it'll also remind me of a horse and the lessons I used to take, which reminds me of a motorcycle... and all of a sudden I'm visualizing my childhood cat on a motorcycle. That's a poor example.. what I'm trying to get at is one seed of thought turns into a massive tree, and I'm left with figuring out how various branches came from the same thought. My mom and I have always shared a similar sense of 'logic,' as we called it. She'd ask me one thing, I'd respond with something seemingly completely random (but she'd follow along), and several sentences later we're talking about something completely different, leaving my poor dad in a state of confusion. I've only met one other person with a similar sense of 'logic,' and we always just joked it was because we were silly.

Sometimes it's overwhelming, and I do tend to lose my train of thought easily. Imagine that, for your average person, a train of thought is like a faucet that's running. For someone with aphantasia, it's off, or running in a very controlled manner. For me, it's like a pipe burst. All these thoughts and visualizations all over the place. It's something I've learned to "control" (as in, I am able to focus on a single task and get work done), but I need time specifically to space out and day dream, to let my mind go off leash.

[MrMoogle]

For those who can't visualize spatially - how do you do at athletic games (playing them)? I'm not very good at them so I'm visualizing trajectories. Without that I'd be hopeless.

You can still calculate, you just don't picture anything visually.

I noticed this today:  every time I read one of your posts, I now see nothingness.  You will forever be associated with that in my mind's eye.

[ooeei]

Really interesting article.  This guy's missing one of the "senses" I never even knew I had, and didn't notice until he was an adult!

[arebelspy]

I'm wondering if this is a spectrum instead of a yes or no situation.

Definitely.  I think it's more spectrum than binary.

And on top of it, brains work in all other kinds of weird/cool ways separate from that, and then they interplay, like your branching thing (which could work independently of the aphantasia thing--i.e. I can imagine someone having the branching you describe without being able to picture), or my lack of inner monologue.

For those who can't visualize spatially - how do you do at athletic games (playing them)? I'm not very good at them so I'm visualizing trajectories. Without that I'd be hopeless.

You can still calculate, you just don't picture anything visually.

I noticed this today:  every time I read one of your posts, I now see nothingness.  You will forever be associated with that in my mind's eye.

I couldn't ask for anything better.

[Metric Mouse]

I was thinking of trials bikes and mtn bikes - going slow and picking a path over obstacles or planning a jump. Guns. Archery. Billiards too. Frisbee. Soccer when you're a goalie trying to smack the ball down field. Those sort of situations. I agree - when it is a sport and you're in a race against another player its just muscle memory and experience. I don't excel at any sport well enough to be at that level.

Yes - some of these things definitely could be easier if one can 'picture' the shot, or plot their line. Practice is going to win out in either event.

[arebelspy]

I was thinking of trials bikes and mtn bikes - going slow and picking a path over obstacles or planning a jump. Guns. Archery. Billiards too. Frisbee. Soccer when you're a goalie trying to smack the ball down field. Those sort of situations. I agree - when it is a sport and you're in a race against another player its just muscle memory and experience. I don't excel at any sport well enough to be at that level.

Yes - some of these things definitely could be easier if one can 'picture' the shot, or plot their line. Practice is going to win out in either event.

I think you guys are underestimating how those of us who don't picture can still function effectively. :)

I can plan a trajectory without visually seeing it.

[Metric Mouse]

I was thinking of trials bikes and mtn bikes - going slow and picking a path over obstacles or planning a jump. Guns. Archery. Billiards too. Frisbee. Soccer when you're a goalie trying to smack the ball down field. Those sort of situations. I agree - when it is a sport and you're in a race against another player its just muscle memory and experience. I don't excel at any sport well enough to be at that level.

Yes - some of these things definitely could be easier if one can 'picture' the shot, or plot their line. Practice is going to win out in either event.

I think you guys are underestimating how those of us who don't picture can still function effectively. :)

I can plan a trajectory without visually seeing it.

No one said it would impair or remove function; just that a person that could visualize something could be more effective.

[arebelspy]

Right. Like I said, you may be underestimating how we can operate effectively.  I could see it the opposite--calculations being more efficient without a visual distraction.

I don't know that there is a way to tell without a controlled study, and even then we can't get in someone's head, so I wouldn't assume that one method is more effective than another.

You may be right, but I wouldn't automatically assume that because it's within your experience. :)

[lbdance]

I have this to a degree. I was made aware at about 10 years old when the teacher asked us to close our eyes and imagine a scene (An elephant - somewhere I can't remember). It was that vivid to me that I couldn't do it, that I have this memory (with no picture) of the situation. Again with some others, very few early memories. I have the occaisional picture, but they are fleeting.

However sorry to disappoint ARS, but I do have an internal dialogue, some days more active than others. I also do very poorly at recognizing people, be it supposedly famous people or people I have met before 1-2 times. When reading I do skip some of the imagery, as it adds nothing for me, however I speed read and that's one time when I lose the internal dialogue and just absorb the story. If watching a movie / meeting someone, I won't have a picture of what I expect it to be like, but sometimes will struggle if I think a key characteristic is wrong. Eye colour / hair length, etc if it is critical to the story. I can still skip to 'thought 22' via my internal dialogue and jumping from one tangent to another.

My DH on the other hand is VERY visual. Constantly has pictures. Often has music / tunes in his head also.
We have discussed this with friends in the past (only imagery, not dialogue but I'm keen to ask that now) and most people have pictures, although it is to my experience a spectrum about the quantity / quality.

I teach dance, and I have no problems doing choreography without being able to picture it first.

[RetiredAt63]

DD and I talked about this last weekend.  She can do Sudoku visually in her head, I have to do it by logic and visuals right there on the page/screen.  But I have no problem with ecological relationship concepts, I just don't do pictures in my head.

[Papa Mustache]

I was thinking of trials bikes and mtn bikes - going slow and picking a path over obstacles or planning a jump. Guns. Archery. Billiards too. Frisbee. Soccer when you're a goalie trying to smack the ball down field. Those sort of situations. I agree - when it is a sport and you're in a race against another player its just muscle memory and experience. I don't excel at any sport well enough to be at that level.

Yes - some of these things definitely could be easier if one can 'picture' the shot, or plot their line. Practice is going to win out in either event.

I think you guys are underestimating how those of us who don't picture can still function effectively. :)

I can plan a trajectory without visually seeing it.

"Seeing it" is such a big part of my planning that I don't know exactly how it could be done without the visualization phase.

[Metric Mouse]

DD and I talked about this last weekend.  She can do Sudoku visually in her head, I have to do it by logic and visuals right there on the page/screen.  But I have no problem with ecological relationship concepts, I just don't do pictures in my head.

That would be pretty impressive to see someone stare at a Sudoku while they solved it mentally, and then just blitz through the numbers, writing them down one after another. It'd almost be like magic!

[arebelspy]

DD and I talked about this last weekend.  She can do Sudoku visually in her head, I have to do it by logic and visuals right there on the page/screen.  But I have no problem with ecological relationship concepts, I just don't do pictures in my head.

That would be pretty impressive to see someone stare at a Sudoku while they solved it mentally, and then just blitz through the numbers, writing them down one after another. It'd almost be like magic!

Newton or Da Vinci or someone used to solve Magic Squares in his head like this.

[Primm]

I had no idea until now that this was a "thing". Or that there was a name for it.

I am a totally visual person, I dream in vivid detail and have a constant internal monologue. It never even occurred to me that everyone wasn't like me. I'm a good driver (I know everyone says that, but I've never had an at-fault crash and have avoided several "inevitable" crashes that were caused by someone else") and I can't do Sudoku.

[Metric Mouse]

I had no idea until now that this was a "thing". Or that there was a name for it.

Well to be fair, how would you know what other people are thinking? And since it does not limit people from accomplishing tasks or interacting with others, there would be little reason to ask or inquire about such a thing.

Much like a person diagnosed with situs inversus is completely different than almost everyone they would ever meet; it's internal, causes little or no distress and has almost zero impact on a person's day-to day actions; how would one know that this is a 'thing'?

[Primm]

I had no idea until now that this was a "thing". Or that there was a name for it.

Well to be fair, how would you know what other people are thinking? And since it does not limit people from accomplishing tasks or interacting with others, there would be little reason to ask or inquire about such a thing.

Much like a person diagnosed with situs inversus is completely different than almost everyone they would ever meet; it's internal, causes little or no distress and has almost zero impact on a person's day-to day actions; how would one know that this is a 'thing'?

Nice analogy, thanks! That's it, isn't it? We each go along on our merry little way with absolutely no idea that things for us can be the absolute opposite to how they are for other people.

[Metric Mouse]

I had no idea until now that this was a "thing". Or that there was a name for it.

Well to be fair, how would you know what other people are thinking? And since it does not limit people from accomplishing tasks or interacting with others, there would be little reason to ask or inquire about such a thing.

Much like a person diagnosed with situs inversus is completely different than almost everyone they would ever meet; it's internal, causes little or no distress and has almost zero impact on a person's day-to day actions; how would one know that this is a 'thing'?

Nice analogy, thanks! That's it, isn't it? We each go along on our merry little way with absolutely no idea that things for us can be the absolute opposite to how they are for other people.

Right? And I'm probably less attuned to differences than the average poster on this site. One of the reasons I enjoy this forum so much; the depth and breadth of views and experiences people share are absolutely amazing. It's really great.

[RetiredAt63]

DD and I talked about this last weekend.  She can do Sudoku visually in her head, I have to do it by logic and visuals right there on the page/screen.  But I have no problem with ecological relationship concepts, I just don't do pictures in my head.

That would be pretty impressive to see someone stare at a Sudoku while they solved it mentally, and then just blitz through the numbers, writing them down one after another. It'd almost be like magic!

It was pretty annoying when Sudoko first came out, and DD and DH would whip through them while I slowly plodded along, using logic and tiny possible numbers written in the corners of the boxes.  They couldn't understand why I was so bad at it (I was the family math whiz/techie) and I couldn't figure out how they knew that one of two possible numbers was the right one.  She sees 4 moves/entries ahead.  This explains so much.  And I am so glad I never taught her chess, it would be embarrassing playing with her.  At least I still can beat her at cribbage half the time.