How do we solve racism in the US?

[ericrugiero]

My country is deeply torn apart.  We are struggling with racism and the divide between the black community and the mostly white police force.  It’s heartbreaking to see so much anger and pain for no good reason.  The most heartbreaking part is that I’m not convinced all this anger and strife is doing much good.  How can we get past the racial divide in the US? 
I believe both sides have some good points. 

There is no question that most black youth have some additional challenges when compared to many whites.  They live in a world where they can be pulled over simply for being black.  They know that a (hopefully small) percentage of people will dislike them and be prejudiced simply because they are black.  They are unlikely to be raised in a two-parent home where they are taught how to be successful.  Their own culture is likely to look down on them if they try to change their lives and escape the hood.  Perhaps worst of all, many are raised in a culture of hopelessness where they don’t see a path forward to a better life.  This all leads to feeling like they are stuck in a bad situation with no way out.  Many don’t see a better option and turn to a life of drugs, gangs, crime, etc.  It’s a vicious cycle because their children are raised the same way, and nothing changes. 

The police have a difficult challenge as well.  Most of them are good people who joined the force because they wanted a job where they could make a difference.  They are the kind of people who run towards a problem to help rather than running away to stay safe.  But, they spend years dealing with the dregs of society.  They put their life on the line to arrest a drug dealer or gang member only to see them back on the street in a couple months.  In a split second, they must make life and death decisions about the intent of the people they are dealing with.  When things do get physical, they must get control of the situation quickly but not use more force than needed.  If they get it wrong, they could be killed, or they could kill an innocent person.    This leads to a deeply ingrained culture of teamwork and never turning your buddy in even when he is wrong.  If they do “rat out” their partner they risk being ostracized or even hung out to dry in a future life or death situation. 

It’s ironic that there are similarities in the two sides.  Both sides have a culture that is holding them back.  Both have cultures where you don’t turn the guilty in.  Both are judged by the actions of a few even if they themselves are innocent. 

So, what is the answer to this racism and seemingly endless cycle?  I don’t claim to have all the answers but here are a few thoughts:

-    The police culture of not turning each other in needs to stop.  They don’t have to air every bit of dirty laundry, but they do need to address the bad apples.  Derek Chauvin was a violent cop with a well-documented history who committed murder.  He should have been dealt with long ago.  I’ll give a cop the benefit of the doubt on a split-second decision where he must decide if he is dealing with an unarmed man making an unwise move or if he is about to get shot.  This wasn’t a case of making the wrong call in the heat of the moment.  This was a murder that took over 8 minutes.  Every police force should be looking internally to deal with any bad cops like this. 

-   We need to figure out how to help the black community change their culture.  Let’s teach them how to succeed in life.  Get prominent athletes to encourage studying.  Show them the path to college (with a useful degree) and a successful career.  Teach them to manage money.   Get some successful role models for the inner-city kids without a dad. 

-   We all need to confront racism when we see it.  Treating ANYONE poorly because of their race is wrong. 

-   We also need to stop playing racism as a card when we don’t get our way.  That waters down the valid accusations and just leads to more problems. 

-   The biggest advantage we could give the black community is a path forward and a belief they CAN succeed.  The American dream is still possible for anyone. 

[ixtap]

We need to help the black community change their culture?!

No. Leave that to them. You need to help your community change their culture. Fight the oppressor, not the victim.

Call out the people who say cop lives matter or white lives matter, as if the police weren't killing black men at nearly 3x the rate of white men.

Confront the written and in written rules that hold black people down. Did you know that most black women won't look in their purse in a store because they and or their friends have been harrassed about shop lifting for such normal activities? Did you know black boys are being not to run with their friends, because people will assume they are running away from something?

Support strict measures for the racist pieces of shit who call the police on black people for being in public spaces doing every day things.

Make sure people are aware that the name on your resume can make a difference in whether or not you get an interview AND THAT IS NOT OK. A lot of people like to say that is why why people should give their kids "normal" names. And by normal, they mean like the Europeans, of course. Fuck that shit.

Sign petitions and otherwise push for changes to laws with racists consequences.

Support having more people vote. There are too many people in our country who would rather stop several hundred thousand people from voting, over 1200 case of fraud. That IS voting fraud. Let the people vote!

[Moonwaves]

-   We need to figure out how to help the black community change their culture.  Let’s teach them how to succeed in life.  Get prominent athletes to encourage studying.  Show them the path to college (with a useful degree) and a successful career.  Teach them to manage money.   Get some successful role models for the inner-city kids without a dad. 

There are lots of problematic things in your post but this one probably sums it up best. Do you understand what systemic racism means?

Even framing it as a "we" need to "help them" question like this feels really patronising to me, if not in fact quite racist.

Have you already seen this video: Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man (it's just under 10 minutes long)? The second part will be released tonight, I think.

My main takeaway from the last couple of weeks has been that it's time for everyone to actually listen to black people when they talk about the things that are actually wrong and the things that need to happen. Coming at the problem from a position of white privilege (obviously I don't know that you are white but I am assuming it from your post) will not really help to change anything.

[Freedom2016]

I have taken on the reading list below as my homework this month, and suggest you do too before pontificating further on what you think the solutions are. If I have learned anything as a white person recently, it's that I need to close my mouth with my (partly-informed-at-best) opinions and spend more time listening and learning.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H-Vxs6jEUByXylMS2BjGH1kQ7mEuZnHpPSs1Bpaqmw0/edit?usp=sharing&fbclid=IwAR3FnPzbJr-3CvVM8nKtiYdYxNAcqDFQKMMXLIs2fB4NwiNeoqa1OCwRlr0

[ixtap]

Oh, and if you really want the black community to give a flying fuck about education, try making school funding more equitable, instead of designed to help the rich get richer.

Try stopping teachers from giving harsher punishments to black students for the same behaviors.

Try having more black teachers.

Try having content in the classroom that includes black culture. Not just history, but actual black kids in the books doing actual black things. Make math word problems more inclusive. Change up the names. Change the examples.

It just doesn't matter how many celebrities tell them to study hard, if the system is rigged against them.

[ericrugiero]

There are lots of problematic things in your post but this one probably sums it up best. Do you understand what systemic racism means?

Even framing it as a "we" need to "help them" question like this feels really patronising to me, if not in fact quite racist.

Have you already seen this video: Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man (it's just under 10 minutes long)? The second part will be released tonight, I think.

My main takeaway from the last couple of weeks has been that it's time for everyone to actually listen to black people when they talk about the things that are actually wrong and the things that need to happen. Coming at the problem from a position of white privilege (obviously I don't know that you are white but I am assuming it from your post) will not really help to change anything.

I know that I don't know everything about this issue and I am trying to understand and learn. 

In the video (which I had not seen but I did watch) he said "We can't solve racism, only white people can solve racism".  So yes, I think "they" are asking that "we" "help them". 

I can understand where my comment about helping to change their culture could be perceived as patronizing.  I didn't mean it that way but I guess I need to adjust how I say something like that.  I do still think that we as a society need to help the black community to start to be more successful economically.  That is the culture I was referencing.  If we can provide additional learning opportunities for them to help them break the cycle of poverty that could be like the golf cart he referenced in the race. He seemed to be asking for that. 

Thanks for sharing the video.  I agreed with much of what he said and it did give me some additional perspective.  There is one concern I have with his comments.  I don't like that attitude that being oppressed for hundreds of years excuses bad behavior.  I teach my kids that they are always responsible for their behavior no matter what anyone does to them.  They always have a choice in how they respond.  That applies to me, them and everyone else in the world.  That said, I did appreciate his perspective and will probably watch his future videos. 

[ericrugiero]

We need to help the black community change their culture?!

No. Leave that to them. You need to help your community change their culture. Fight the oppressor, not the victim.

As another poster pointed out, that came across as patronizing.  I should have worded that better.  But, if we are going to have a productive conversation about change we need to be able to call out people behaving badly no matter what "side" they are on or what their skin looks like.   

[ixtap]

We need to help the black community change their culture?!

No. Leave that to them. You need to help your community change their culture. Fight the oppressor, not the victim.

As another poster pointed out, that came across as patronizing.  I should have worded that better.  But, if we are going to have a productive conversation about change we need to be able to call out people behaving badly no matter what "side" they are on or what their skin looks like.   

It didn't come across as patronizing, it was patronizing, as well as naive. You went on for a whole paragraph about what they should do without once addressing why those issues exist. Black culture doesn't exist in a vacuum where they decided they didn't want to be educated. It isn't that they don't know that education can be important, it is that stumbling blocks keep getting put in their way. They can't get good with money with just a bit of education if the wealth systems are stacked against them in a myriad of ways. There wouldn't be so many inner city kids without dad's if they weren't incarcerated at such high rates...

[GuitarStv]

One thing that might help would be for police to represent and live in the neighbourhoods they work in.  If a neighbourhood is 90% black, the officers policing the neighbourhood should be 90% black - not 99.9% white as often seems to be the case.  It would probably be beneficial to have police selected from people who live in the area they're policing.  It's a lot harder to push a non-violent 80 year old man to the ground and stomp over his prostrate body as blood trickles from his ear when you know that he lives a couple blocks from your house.

-   The biggest advantage we could give the black community is a path forward and a belief they CAN succeed.  The American dream is still possible for anyone. 

I'm going to try to not jump on you for being patronizing in the first post, and assume that it was coming from a good place.  I vehemently disagree with the point you posted here though.

A belief that someone can succeed that's not backed up by reality will do the opposite of what you want.  When it's crushed by the real world, it will generate anger and frustration much greater than what you're currently seeing.  The biggest advantage you can give the black community is equal opportunity to succeed by removing the many racist roadblocks that have become so entrenched over time that many white folks don't see them any more.

Hope and belief in success don't need to be given.  They'll come naturally when the situation changes for the better.

[ctuser1]

Even though the original post came across pretty naive - I will assume it was written in good faith and try to answer.

First, what are the things you *can't* do:
1. You can't help "others" improve their culture.
    - But you *can* improve yours.
2. You can't help others.
    - But you can help yourself.

There are many things you *can* do:
1. (Assuming you are white) You can be grateful that you or your kids aren't shot dead randomly by the police.
2. You *can* vote out politicians to systematically disenfranchise people who don't look like you by gerrymandering and voter ID laws.
3. You *can* personally try not to involve race in your personal decision-making. This is not a black and white thing. Human brain is a giant pattern recognition machine, and how someone looks is a huge cue to this machine. As long as you are aware of this lizard-brain-feature and actively try to compensate - I think there ends your personal responsibility.

What I do notice from white people from deeply conservative places is support for politicians and policies who propagate and perpetuate all kinds of Jim Crow policies.

I don't think anyone thinks all these can be resolved in a day. But voting out folks who gerrymander away (and institute voter id laws with deeply racist intentions - e.g. spelling of the name has to exactly match) black votes to oblivion sure can be done in a year. Do you want to??

[Moonwaves]

I do still think that we as a society need to help the black community to start to be more successful economically.  That is the culture I was referencing.  If we can provide additional learning opportunities for them to help them break the cycle of poverty that could be like the golf cart he referenced in the race. He seemed to be asking for that. 

I think the way to do that is to look at all the systemic causes of poverty. Providing better housing, health care, schooling and a safe and a secure environment are all things that would help but these things do not necessarily happen by helping the black community to be more successful economically.

There is one concern I have with his comments.  I don't like that attitude that being oppressed for hundreds of years excuses bad behavior. 

This short video in which Martin Luther King Jr. really gets to the core of the issue very quickly helped my understanding of privilege immensely. The thing is that it may not excuse bad behaviour but it can certainly explain a lot of the reasons for it.

The link to that video is a tweet by Ave DuVernay, a filmmaker and director. I have read a lot of thought-provoking and educational tweets from her in the last while (I don't follow her on twitter but enough people have retweeted enough tweets that I now recognise the name) - you might find some interesting stuff in her twitter feed as well.

[ctuser1]

I think the bad behavior of the black kids are reprehensible, but not as reprehensible as the bad behavior of middle-aged white right-wing folks of supposedly good culture and manners who anyway support disenfranchisement under various pretexts.

In one case various excuses can be made (some may even be somewhat justified).

Focus on your own bad behavior - not others.

[Moonwaves]

I'm just reading through more of Ava DuVernay's twitter feed now and it led me to this thread that you might also find interesting.
https://twitter.com/robinthede/status/1268545051438845954 It starts:

If you’re new to the movement, know that ending police violence is only the start. Concurrently, we must ...

[Kris]

There are lots of problematic things in your post but this one probably sums it up best. Do you understand what systemic racism means?

Even framing it as a "we" need to "help them" question like this feels really patronising to me, if not in fact quite racist.

Have you already seen this video: Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man (it's just under 10 minutes long)? The second part will be released tonight, I think.

My main takeaway from the last couple of weeks has been that it's time for everyone to actually listen to black people when they talk about the things that are actually wrong and the things that need to happen. Coming at the problem from a position of white privilege (obviously I don't know that you are white but I am assuming it from your post) will not really help to change anything.

I know that I don't know everything about this issue and I am trying to understand and learn. 

In the video (which I had not seen but I did watch) he said "We can't solve racism, only white people can solve racism".  So yes, I think "they" are asking that "we" "help them". 

No. HE is saying that white people can only solve their own racism. He is saying "they" can't help "us" do it, we need to look in the mirror and deal with our own shit.

[J Boogie]

Eric, I think it's valid to believe that there might be some problems in black culture that can't blamed 100% on white supremacy.

However you DID title the thread "How do we solve racism in the US?" so it doesn't make much sense to focus on how black people can improve.

If you had titled it something like "How can we achieve equality in the US?" it would make much more sense to focus on how black people can improve.

That being said, Ixtap, I think you'd benefit intellectually from considering the viewpoint of John McWhorter if you're not familiar.  This is from 2006 and it's still incredibly relevant today.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5628075

[ixtap]

Eric, I think it's valid to believe that there might be some problems in black culture that can't blamed 100% on white supremacy.

However you DID title the thread "How do we solve racism in the US?" so it doesn't make much sense to focus on how black people can improve.

If you had titled it something like "How can we achieve equality in the US?" it would make much more sense to focus on how black people can improve.

That being said, Ixtap, I think you'd benefit intellectually from considering the viewpoint of John McWhorter if you're not familiar.  This is from 2006 and it's still incredibly relevant today.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5628075

I am indeed familiar with McWhorter's work. As one whose specialty bridges linguistics and sociology, I would be remiss to not be so. If it helps, I also have real issues with his rejection of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.

More importantly, you will notice that I never said the black community should just sit back and wait for everything else to be fixed. I said that from outside of the black community, our job is to fight the actual racism, not to help them fix the results of centuries of racism.

[ericrugiero]

Eric, I think it's valid to believe that there might be some problems in black culture that can't blamed 100% on white supremacy.

However you DID title the thread "How do we solve racism in the US?" so it doesn't make much sense to focus on how black people can improve.

If you had titled it something like "How can we achieve equality in the US?" it would make much more sense to focus on how black people can improve.

That being said, Ixtap, I think you'd benefit intellectually from considering the viewpoint of John McWhorter if you're not familiar.  This is from 2006 and it's still incredibly relevant today.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5628075

Yes, some of what I wrote was more about inequality but I would submit that racism and inequality are linked.  To address racism we must also address inequality.  After all, much of the inequality is frequently blamed on racism. 

[J Boogie]

Eric, I think it's valid to believe that there might be some problems in black culture that can't blamed 100% on white supremacy.

However you DID title the thread "How do we solve racism in the US?" so it doesn't make much sense to focus on how black people can improve.

If you had titled it something like "How can we achieve equality in the US?" it would make much more sense to focus on how black people can improve.

That being said, Ixtap, I think you'd benefit intellectually from considering the viewpoint of John McWhorter if you're not familiar.  This is from 2006 and it's still incredibly relevant today.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5628075

I am indeed familiar with McWhorter's work. As one whose specialty bridges linguistics and sociology, I would be remiss to not be so. If it helps, I also have real issues with his rejection of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.

Looks like I found a fellow traveler, if not in sharing ideology at least in sharing that we follow those who make the clearest arguments.

Rather than reiterate McWhorter's brilliant talking points and pressing you on why you don't wholeheartedly agree them as I do, I'll share something I never really considered that we as white people CAN (or rather, NOT do) to have a positive effect on black culture, and that is to avoid consuming and sharing any content that normalizes black violence. I had an aha moment when he mentions that Rick Ross got dropped by Reebok after 100,000 signatures asked them to when one of his songs referenced drugging a woman's champagne. However there is no penalty for endlessly bragging about murdering other black men, and it seems to be tacitly encouraged as staying on script for a gangster rapper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DxHL2i3cZo

[mathlete]

There's nothing wrong with black culture.

[mathlete]

The President took a personal vendetta against an athlete thoughtfully and peacefully speaking out on this topic. He effectively mobilized his base to essentially run this man out of his profession. Three years later, with the scope of police brutality on full display, he reiterated his position on this topic. ~40% of Americans still support him.

This is the problem.

[GuitarStv]

Yeah.  When the president of the United States is routinely and openly racist (with no rebuke from his supporters or political allies)  it's kinda hard to see any real path forward on this issue.

[mathlete]

Rather than reiterate McWhorter's brilliant talking points and pressing you on why you don't wholeheartedly agree them as I do, I'll share something I never really considered that we as white people CAN (or rather, NOT do) to have a positive effect on black culture, and that is to avoid consuming and sharing any content that normalizes black violence. I had an aha moment when he mentions that Rick Ross got dropped by Reebok after 100,000 signatures asked them to when one of his songs referenced drugging a woman's champagne. However there is no penalty for endlessly bragging about murdering other black men, and it seems to be tacitly encouraged as staying on script for a gangster rapper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DxHL2i3cZo

Toby Keith wrote a chart-topping song that celebrated bombing in the Middle East. 18 years later we're, still engaged in forever wars over there that have cost  hundreds of thousands of lives. Can we please stop normalizing white violence?

[ericrugiero]

There's nothing wrong with black culture.

There are plenty of things wrong in the world with how blacks are treated.  Don't think that I am blaming them for the racism that they are experiencing.  But, there are clearly things wrong with black culture. 
-Rap music glorifying violence against women and other blacks is one example
-Ostracizing blacks who try to do well in school or business is another example

We should be able to call out bad behavior wherever we find it.  Just being part of a group that is being mistreated doesn't mean there isn't a standard for behavior. 

[PDXTabs]

I'm not sure that you do. I think that a large portion of the country are still married white protestants that were just fine with how things were before the voting rights act and would be happy to "Make America Great Again" by going back to a time with massive voter disenfranchisement for people of color. For further reading I highly recommend How Democracies Die by Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt. While not being specifically about voter disenfranchisement it certainly covers that history to understand where we are today in the USA.

[ixtap]

There's nothing wrong with black culture.

There are plenty of things wrong in the world with how blacks are treated.  Don't think that I am blaming them for the racism that they are experiencing.  But, there are clearly things wrong with black culture. 
-Rap music glorifying violence against women and other blacks is one example
-Ostracizing blacks who try to do well in school or business is another example

We should be able to call out bad behavior wherever we find it.  Just being part of a group that is being mistreated doesn't mean there isn't a standard for behavior.

But have you asked yourself how it came to this?

For example, ostracizing for improvement is very much a poverty culture issue with roots in the us vs them dynamic imposed from above.

That doesn't excuse it, that means that fighting the root cause is at least as important as asking for the changes to happen within the community.

[mathlete]

America participated in the legalized theft of ALL black work product for the first 100 years of its existence. Over the next 100 years, they continued to be legally discriminated against in a number of ways.

In 1896, Plessy v. Ferguson enshrined "separate but equal", a grim misnomer that meant black people would be routinely dehumanized and denied important things like education, legally, for the next 60 years.

In 1934, the Federal Housing Administration was created with the idea of facilitating federally insured loans to homeowners and homebuyers in the wake of the depression. Thanks to a practice known as "redlining", almost none of these federally guaranteed loans went into black neighborhoods.

In 1954, Brown v Board effectively struck down "separate but equal", declaring that segregation in public schools was unconstitutional. But still, some localities were slow to respond. Famously, in 1963, the democratically elected governor of Alabama blocked the door to the auditorium at the University of Alabama, symbolically showing his resistance to the admission of black students. "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." were his words. This was nine years after Brown v. Board. Nine years.

The 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed in part to uphold voting rights that should have been protected as the law of the land 100 years earlier with the 15th amendment. The 1968 bill passed fair housing laws that (at least nominally) put an end to preferential FHA activity that should have been disallowed 34 years earlier.

In 1986, in the midst of a moral drug panic, the Anti Drug Abuse act was passed. Under this law, incarceration for crack cocaine (used more by black people) was up to 100 times more severe than incarceration of powder cocaine (use more by white people).

All of this is to say that I have little patience for conversations that revolve around gangster rap. Especially since this hasn't even been the predominant form of hip hop in well over a decade.

[mathlete]

There are plenty of things wrong in the world with how blacks are treated.  Don't think that I am blaming them for the racism that they are experiencing.  But, there are clearly things wrong with black culture. 
-Rap music glorifying violence against women and other blacks is one example

Is glorified misogyny exclusive to black music? Eminem is one of the worst offenders. But even beyond rap, Adam Levine has a very famous song about how he's preying on women like animals. The music video portrays him as a very sexy serial killer. Robin Thicke hit it big with a song about him aggressively navigating the blurred lines of consent.

Full disclosure, I like all of these artists. I think it's perfectly fine for art to be a little "problematic". That's what makes it interesting. Otherwise, all we'd have would be "Happy" by Pharell. I also think it's good to have conversations about what gets glorified in music/film/video games. We don't have to ban anything, but we should take a moment while enjoying these things to say, "hey, what is being acted out here is bad in real life."

Very interesting and important topic of conversation. But it has next to nothing to do with why black Americans underachieve.

-Ostracizing blacks who try to do well in school or business is another example

I'm not really sure how much of this actually goes on.

[PDXTabs]

-Ostracizing blacks who try to do well in school or business is another example

I'm not really sure how much of this actually goes on.

Yea, my extended family is mixed and blended and there are a whole lot of educated black folks in it.

[GuitarStv]

-Rap music glorifying violence against women and other blacks is one example

Hmm.

Focusing on musical content, the song lyrics are examined to see how they imply gender differences and sexism in any of the following ways:

–           by depicting women in traditional gender roles (for example, “I kept her barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen”);

–           by using (slang) words that portray women as inferior (for example, “Those bitches bow down to me”);

–           by implying that a woman’s worth is determined by her appearance (for example, “I loved her because she was beautiful”);

–           by the use of female pronouns when referring to objects or ideas (for example, “My car is so awesome; she is one sweet ride”);

–           by portraying women as a group with negative stereotypes (for example, “All women are conniving”);

–           by suggesting that a woman is an object, especially a sexual object (for example, “She had one purpose and that was to please me as my trophy”);

–           by referring to women primarily as strippers or other sex workers (for example, “All the women in my life work the pole”);

–           by referring to forcing sexual acts on a woman (for example, “If she doesn’t want it, I force her to want it by making her do it anyway”);

–           by referring to violence against women in a positive manner (for example, “If she gets out of line all I have to do is slap her back into place”).

That does seem pretty damning.  Oh. . . wait.  That's an analysis of country music song lyrics.  (https://sc.edu/about/offices_and_divisions/research/news_and_pubs/caravel/archive/2013/2013-caravel-sexism-in-unexpected-places.php)

Where is the outrage and movement to get rid of country music for it's negative impacts on white culture?  I've heard the horrors of rap music many times . . . but never a peep about country.

-Ostracizing blacks who try to do well in school or business is another example

We should be able to call out bad behavior wherever we find it.  Just being part of a group that is being mistreated doesn't mean there isn't a standard for behavior.

Are we sure that this is a problem unique to black culture?  I went to school in a 3/4s white, 1/4 native school.  It was pretty common for people who tried to do well in school to be ostracized.





If we're going to come up with unique methods to solve the problems of black culture, maybe we should ensure that these problems aren't also endemic in white culture first.

:P

[Aelias]

There are plenty of things wrong in the world with how blacks are treated.  Don't think that I am blaming them for the racism that they are experiencing.  But, there are clearly things wrong with black culture. 
-Rap music glorifying violence against women and other blacks is one example

Is glorified misogyny exclusive to black music? Eminem is one of the worst offenders. But even beyond rap, Adam Levine has a very famous song about how he's preying on women like animals. The music video portrays him as a very sexy serial killer. Robin Thicke hit it big with a song about him aggressively navigating the blurred lines of consent. 

Crime and violence are topics throughout virtually every genre of music.  Consider "I Fought the Law", The Bobby Fuller Four ("Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won"); "Bohemian Rhapsody", Queen ("Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head, Pulled my trigger, now he's dead"); "Janie's Got a Gun", Aerosmith ("They said when Janie was arrested they found him underneath a train. But man, he had it comin' Now that Janie's got a gun she ain't never gonna be the same.")  Check out Johnny Cash's entire friggin' catalog! Personal fave: "Cocaine Blues" ("Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed, I stuck that lovin' forty-four beneath my head.")

This is why it's racist to suggest that the violence in rap music is somehow responsible for making black communities violent.  All genres of music includes violent songs, but no one ever suggests that Johnny Cash is contributing to violence in the white community.  That would be absurd.  It is similarly absurd to suggest that rap and hip hop music--which is currently the most popular genre in America and enjoyed by millions of law-abiding people of all races--contributes to black violence.

[Kris]

There are plenty of things wrong in the world with how blacks are treated.  Don't think that I am blaming them for the racism that they are experiencing.  But, there are clearly things wrong with black culture. 
-Rap music glorifying violence against women and other blacks is one example

Is glorified misogyny exclusive to black music? Eminem is one of the worst offenders. But even beyond rap, Adam Levine has a very famous song about how he's preying on women like animals. The music video portrays him as a very sexy serial killer. Robin Thicke hit it big with a song about him aggressively navigating the blurred lines of consent. 

Crime and violence are topics throughout virtually every genre of music.  Consider "I Fought the Law", The Bobby Fuller Four ("Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won"); "Bohemian Rhapsody", Queen ("Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head, Pulled my trigger, now he's dead"); "Janie's Got a Gun", Aerosmith ("They said when Janie was arrested they found him underneath a train. But man, he had it comin' Now that Janie's got a gun she ain't never gonna be the same.")  Check out Johnny Cash's entire friggin' catalog! Personal fave: "Cocaine Blues" ("Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed, I stuck that lovin' forty-four beneath my head.")

This is why it's racist to suggest that the violence in rap music is somehow responsible for making black communities violent.  All genres of music includes violent songs, but no one ever suggests that Johnny Cash is contributing to violence in the white community.  That would be absurd.  It is similarly absurd to suggest that rap and hip hop music--which is currently the most popular genre in America and enjoyed by millions of law-abiding people of all races--contributes to black violence.

Which once again goes back to the point made (and misinterpreted by OP) "We can't solve racism, only white people can solve racism".

To wit, OP, look at what you've asserted about rap music. And now look at this. And dig down deep and ask yourself why you so easily believed that "black" music is somehow more violent than "white" music.

[J Boogie]

Rather than reiterate McWhorter's brilliant talking points and pressing you on why you don't wholeheartedly agree them as I do, I'll share something I never really considered that we as white people CAN (or rather, NOT do) to have a positive effect on black culture, and that is to avoid consuming and sharing any content that normalizes black violence. I had an aha moment when he mentions that Rick Ross got dropped by Reebok after 100,000 signatures asked them to when one of his songs referenced drugging a woman's champagne. However there is no penalty for endlessly bragging about murdering other black men, and it seems to be tacitly encouraged as staying on script for a gangster rapper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DxHL2i3cZo

Toby Keith wrote a chart-topping song that celebrated bombing in the Middle East. 18 years later we're, still engaged in forever wars over there that have cost  hundreds of thousands of lives. Can we please stop normalizing white violence?

You're missing the point. You're interpreting an anti racist message as a racist message.  Perhaps because it sounded vaguely similar to a Bill O'Reilly talking point. I wouldn't blame you :)

We both know country music is not full of violent lyrics that devalue the lives of black people.

The point is, if you watched the video, that one of the more harmful racist things that white people in legacy media have done is to reinforce negative black stereotypes.

We recognize it most easily in movies, even when it is relatively trivial - such as a black sidekick who uses slang. But we often fail to recognize when the celebrities are not explicitly acting, but instead embody roles that have long been nurtured by white legacy media gatekeepers. And one of those roles involves bragging about killing other black people.

These archetypes have taken hold, though many positive role models have organically sprung up as well. I think there is a moral duty we have as white people not to take any part in consuming or sharing media that reinforces negative stereotypes - and the drug dealing gangster rapper certainly is a negative stereotype.

[PoutineLover]

As white people, I think some of the most important things we can do are educate ourselves and speak to other white people about the issue. I personally am reading fiction and non fiction by black and POC authors, donating to black organizations that fight racism, sending emails to my elected officials to let them know that this is important to me, and speaking to my friends and family about racism and what we can each do to make a difference. Each person has to decide what they will do to combat racism in their lives and social circles. Doing nothing = being complicit.

There were a lot of problematic statements in the first post, and I think a lot of those myths would be dispelled with a little reading.
You can't talk about black fathers not being present without talking about the impact of mass incarceration, which disproportionately affects black people. You can't talk about voting without mentioning the fact that thousands of felons are disenfranchised, again disproportionately black. You can't talk about underachieving in school without discussing the school to prison pipeline, the unequal funding of schools based on property taxes and the lack of support for first generation college students. You can't talk about health issues without examining the disparities in health care, the high rate of black maternal mortality and food deserts. There's a huge wealth gap between black and white households, there are huge pay disparities between black and white workers, discrimination in hiring and promotion. Poverty can lead people to make choices they'd otherwise not make and poor, minority communities are often over policed.

Some of these issues are directly because of race, some of them disproportionately affect blacks and/or other minorities, and all of them are linked to/examples of systemic racism. I'm Canadian, but both Canada and the US prioritize white lives over anyone else and it's a huge problem. It's not "playing the racism card" to point out the truth.

This is by no means an exhaustive look at the various issues included in systemic racism, but it's a starting point. We all have to take responsibility for our own actions, whether we see ourselves as racist or not, our actions speak louder than words. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to learn, to listen to black voices, amplify their words, and spread what I've learned to people who might not be as aware. This includes examining my own biases and actively making an effort to counter racism. Becoming aware of  the issues and taking action and spreading the word is important. This will translate into real action and change.

I shouldn't have to say it, but as white people we don't need to tell black people to fix their culture. We created this problem, we perpetuated the problem, we maintain the system and hold most of the power, so we need to fix ourselves and dismantle our racist systen. To do this we need to listen to black voices, and make sure that black people are represented and wield power, and implement informed solutions that fix the structural issues, not just slap a Band-Aid on it and say we did something.

[Just Joe]

-Ostracizing blacks who try to do well in school or business is another example

I'm not really sure how much of this actually goes on.
[/quote]

Isn't that a problem in schools in general? It seems to be better in my part of the country than it was when I went to school in the 70s and 80s.

Absolutely schools should get equal funding based on the size of the school population rather than how wealthy a neighborhood is. Of course the wealthier schools will simply have massive fund raisers and the wealthier families will have a better funded school anyhow. How does a person change that? Some individual public schools employ people whose jobs are simply full-time fund raising.

I can only speak about my part of the country but things between the races, genders and the various cultural groups seem to have gotten much better over the past 20 years. People are inter-marrying. There are many mixed race kids in the schools. People are crossing cultural and racial lines. And this is south of the Mason-Dixon line. No, not everyone is on board with it but most keep their opinions to themselves. There are conservatives who have alot of vitriol about liberals to share but whatever.

Could it be that in these big northern cities the problems lie with a lack of economic opportunities exacerbating things like racial and cultural differences? 

And politicians who lie like our current president and his political supporters in DC need to be called out every time they are caught. Supporters of gerrymandering needs to be called out very publicly. These people ought to be forced into resigning. Trump needs to resign. He is a disgrace to our country. His presidency has exposed so many weaknesses in our government. His lies and abusive rhetoric should be enough to force him out or silence him if nothing else. I can't walk into a theater and scream "FIRE!" and he shouldn't be allowed to do so either. 

[J Boogie]

Crime and violence are topics throughout virtually every genre of music.  Consider "I Fought the Law", The Bobby Fuller Four ("Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won"); "Bohemian Rhapsody", Queen ("Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head, Pulled my trigger, now he's dead"); "Janie's Got a Gun", Aerosmith ("They said when Janie was arrested they found him underneath a train. But man, he had it comin' Now that Janie's got a gun she ain't never gonna be the same.")  Check out Johnny Cash's entire friggin' catalog! Personal fave: "Cocaine Blues" ("Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed, I stuck that lovin' forty-four beneath my head.")

This is why it's racist to suggest that the violence in rap music is somehow responsible for making black communities violent.  All genres of music includes violent songs, but no one ever suggests that Johnny Cash is contributing to violence in the white community.  That would be absurd.  It is similarly absurd to suggest that rap and hip hop music--which is currently the most popular genre in America and enjoyed by millions of law-abiding people of all races--contributes to black violence.

The songs you mentioned don't prove your point. Just because they include violence does not mean they glamourize it. Most of them involve some sort of remorse or artistic ambiguity, whereas most gangster rap violence is along the lines of so and so crossed me so I killed them.

The thing is, there is no particular archetype of a violent white man who everyday white kids want to grow up to be. But for black kids growing up in poverty, there are plenty of toxic role models who came from similar environments whose CDs man white people buy. Or maybe since this is 2020, who they play on spotify. My point is white people have no business helping prop up these toxic black role models.

[J Boogie]

Are we sure that this is a problem unique to black culture?  I went to school in a 3/4s white, 1/4 native school.  It was pretty common for people who tried to do well in school to be ostracized.


If we're going to come up with unique methods to solve the problems of black culture, maybe we should ensure that these problems aren't also endemic in white culture first.

:P

"Sure, white kids get made fun of for being nerds, too. But as Kimberly Norwood has deftly gotten across in her study of the “acting white” charge, it’s one thing to be called a nerd, another to be told you are disqualifying yourself from your race. That lends a particular sting."

John McWhorter

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/acting-white-charge-origins/594130/

[GuitarStv]

Crime and violence are topics throughout virtually every genre of music.  Consider "I Fought the Law", The Bobby Fuller Four ("Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won"); "Bohemian Rhapsody", Queen ("Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head, Pulled my trigger, now he's dead"); "Janie's Got a Gun", Aerosmith ("They said when Janie was arrested they found him underneath a train. But man, he had it comin' Now that Janie's got a gun she ain't never gonna be the same.")  Check out Johnny Cash's entire friggin' catalog! Personal fave: "Cocaine Blues" ("Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed, I stuck that lovin' forty-four beneath my head.")

This is why it's racist to suggest that the violence in rap music is somehow responsible for making black communities violent.  All genres of music includes violent songs, but no one ever suggests that Johnny Cash is contributing to violence in the white community.  That would be absurd.  It is similarly absurd to suggest that rap and hip hop music--which is currently the most popular genre in America and enjoyed by millions of law-abiding people of all races--contributes to black violence.

The songs you mentioned don't prove your point. Just because they include violence does not mean they glamourize it. Most of them involve some sort of remorse or artistic ambiguity, whereas most gangster rap violence is along the lines of so and so crossed me so I killed them.

The thing is, there is no particular archetype of a violent white man who everyday white kids want to grow up to be. But for black kids growing up in poverty, there are plenty of toxic role models who came from similar environments whose CDs man white people buy. Or maybe since this is 2020, who they play on spotify. My point is white people have no business helping prop up these toxic black role models.

The white president of the United States is an unabashed racist, white man who promotes violence, and toxic role model.  He has been recorded glamorizing non-consensual assault on women.  White people are almost entirely responsible for propping up this toxic role model.


Look - I'm not really much of a fan of rap in general, gangsta rap in specific.  But before we go telling an oppressed minority that they need to change their culture, it would be nice if we got our own house in order first.

[J Boogie]

But for black kids growing up in poverty, there are plenty of toxic role models who came from similar environments whose CDs man white people buy. Or maybe since this is 2020, who they play on spotify. My point is white people have no business helping prop up these toxic black role models.

Look - I'm not really much of a fan of rap in general, gangsta rap in specific.  But before we go telling an oppressed minority that they need to change their culture, it would be nice if we got our own house in order first.

Gonna call you StrawManStv from now on :)

Again, my point is that white people fostered these negative stereotypes from early on and we need to stop fostering them.

[boy_bye]

Crime and violence are topics throughout virtually every genre of music.  Consider "I Fought the Law", The Bobby Fuller Four ("Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won"); "Bohemian Rhapsody", Queen ("Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head, Pulled my trigger, now he's dead"); "Janie's Got a Gun", Aerosmith ("They said when Janie was arrested they found him underneath a train. But man, he had it comin' Now that Janie's got a gun she ain't never gonna be the same.")  Check out Johnny Cash's entire friggin' catalog! Personal fave: "Cocaine Blues" ("Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed, I stuck that lovin' forty-four beneath my head.")

This is why it's racist to suggest that the violence in rap music is somehow responsible for making black communities violent.  All genres of music includes violent songs, but no one ever suggests that Johnny Cash is contributing to violence in the white community.  That would be absurd.  It is similarly absurd to suggest that rap and hip hop music--which is currently the most popular genre in America and enjoyed by millions of law-abiding people of all races--contributes to black violence.

The songs you mentioned don't prove your point. Just because they include violence does not mean they glamourize it. Most of them involve some sort of remorse or artistic ambiguity, whereas most gangster rap violence is along the lines of so and so crossed me so I killed them.

The thing is, there is no particular archetype of a violent white man who everyday white kids want to grow up to be.

idk, lots of white kids want to grow up and be cops.

and lots of white kids want to grow up and be navy seals or some shit, so they can blow things up.

i think you've got a hammer and you want every problem to be a nail. but this one is goofy. if you're going to change your watching / listening / reading preferences, start by including more black folks, especially black women. if you do this then maybe you'll see the breadth of black art that exists out there -- the vast majority of it is not gangsta rap.

[J Boogie]

Crime and violence are topics throughout virtually every genre of music.  Consider "I Fought the Law", The Bobby Fuller Four ("Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won"); "Bohemian Rhapsody", Queen ("Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head, Pulled my trigger, now he's dead"); "Janie's Got a Gun", Aerosmith ("They said when Janie was arrested they found him underneath a train. But man, he had it comin' Now that Janie's got a gun she ain't never gonna be the same.")  Check out Johnny Cash's entire friggin' catalog! Personal fave: "Cocaine Blues" ("Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed, I stuck that lovin' forty-four beneath my head.")

This is why it's racist to suggest that the violence in rap music is somehow responsible for making black communities violent.  All genres of music includes violent songs, but no one ever suggests that Johnny Cash is contributing to violence in the white community.  That would be absurd.  It is similarly absurd to suggest that rap and hip hop music--which is currently the most popular genre in America and enjoyed by millions of law-abiding people of all races--contributes to black violence.

The songs you mentioned don't prove your point. Just because they include violence does not mean they glamourize it. Most of them involve some sort of remorse or artistic ambiguity, whereas most gangster rap violence is along the lines of so and so crossed me so I killed them.

The thing is, there is no particular archetype of a violent white man who everyday white kids want to grow up to be.

idk, lots of white kids want to grow up and be cops.

Perhaps that was tongue in cheek, but even if a person accepts that the police exoterically glorify violence, the narrative is that they're the good guys and they are violent as a means to the end of protecting the innocent.

Whereas the toxic role model I'm referring to glorfies violence against those who disrespect them.

[boy_bye]

Crime and violence are topics throughout virtually every genre of music.  Consider "I Fought the Law", The Bobby Fuller Four ("Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won"); "Bohemian Rhapsody", Queen ("Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head, Pulled my trigger, now he's dead"); "Janie's Got a Gun", Aerosmith ("They said when Janie was arrested they found him underneath a train. But man, he had it comin' Now that Janie's got a gun she ain't never gonna be the same.")  Check out Johnny Cash's entire friggin' catalog! Personal fave: "Cocaine Blues" ("Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed, I stuck that lovin' forty-four beneath my head.")

This is why it's racist to suggest that the violence in rap music is somehow responsible for making black communities violent.  All genres of music includes violent songs, but no one ever suggests that Johnny Cash is contributing to violence in the white community.  That would be absurd.  It is similarly absurd to suggest that rap and hip hop music--which is currently the most popular genre in America and enjoyed by millions of law-abiding people of all races--contributes to black violence.

The songs you mentioned don't prove your point. Just because they include violence does not mean they glamourize it. Most of them involve some sort of remorse or artistic ambiguity, whereas most gangster rap violence is along the lines of so and so crossed me so I killed them.

The thing is, there is no particular archetype of a violent white man who everyday white kids want to grow up to be.

idk, lots of white kids want to grow up and be cops.

Perhaps that was tongue in cheek, but even if a person accepts that the police exoterically glorify violence, the narrative is that they're the good guys and they are violent as a means to the end of protecting the innocent.

Whereas the toxic role model I'm referring to glorfies violence against those who disrespect them.

that's your narrative of cops. that's not many, many other folks' narrative of cops. the majority of americans, in fact.

[AccidentialMustache]

As another poster pointed out, that came across as patronizing.  I should have worded that better.  But, if we are going to have a productive conversation about change we need to be able to call out people behaving badly no matter what "side" they are on or what their skin looks like.   

I'm not in a place to speak for Black Lives Matter. I'm coming from all the standard places of privilege -- white, male, upper middle class upbringing, college educated, (raised) christian, straight, married, etc. I'm not in a position to relate what blacks, women, the poor, etc suffer on a daily basis.

However, if you are like me, white, male, etc -- maybe I can relate something that will help?

Hi, I'm AccidentialMustache, and I'm left handed.

You reply: "So what?", right?

Did the line above feel natural? Did you notice I didn't use "correct"?

"Okay, now right-click on the file to get the context menu and ..." -- not click/primary-click and opposite-click, which would be handist-neutral. 43 million results on google ("right-click") vs 36... thousand ("opposite-click").

Double-doors are hinged backwards (eg, hinged on the outside) for me.

When I meet someone in a business context and I'm expected to shake hands, it's always awkward. I'm usually carrying things (resume, notepad, pen, maybe a water bottle) in my right hand. I leave my left free to fumble with keys, adjust my glasses, hit the lock combo on my keyboard as I leave my desk, to push my chair in. Offering to shake with my left is considered rude.

Did my phone ring too loud in the quiet office? I can't drop the volume quickly one handed. The buttons are on the right. Only.

We recently got an Oculus Quest (beat saber -- so fun!). Guess what? Only the right hand controller's oculus button pauses the game and brings up the heads-up-display. Would it be so hard to have both controller's button do that? (the docs seem to claim either controller's button should, maybe the left controller is defective?) When beat saber boots, only the right controller is active to use menus by default. At least by just clicking a button on the left it'll flip activation to the left and disable the right. But even if I've selected left handed mode, it still boots up with the right controller active. All left handed mode does is flip the notes so you can get an even workout across your arms.


And I'm the invisible minority here! If you see me at a distance, you have no idea I'm left handed. Not until I possibly fumble the handshake, or pick up a pen to write (who does that these days?), or you see my desk at work with the mouse on the left, would you have a hint.


So I'm going to challenge the "generic you" out there -- try it. Try being left handed.

* Put your mouse on the left, flip the buttons. Watch as some programs note that and change their directions (usually notable in video game's tutorials) while others don't. Then you can play the "guess if this program flipped the tutorial or not" game too! Oh, and I hope your mouse is actually left-friendly, not some abomination (https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse).
* Carry stuff at work in your right, so shaking hands is awkward.
* Open double doors with your left. Heck, stores and workplaces are empty right now, if you find a double door, open the "wrong" half with your right hand!
* Try writing something left-handed. It doesn't need to be readable. Do it with a slow-drying pen. How does the smear look?


This is nothing compared to the subject under discussion. In the past, being left-handed would certainly have been worse than it is now. The teacher whacks a left-handed student. Computers didn't used to have "left-handed" as a mouse option. These days it isn't a micro-aggression level. It's just pervasive and annoying. But it's the perspective I have to offer and it is the one I am qualified to speak about.

Random aside: I'd love if COVID kills the traditional handshake in the US. I don't have a great hope that it'll be replaced by a hand-neutral greeting ritual though.

[mathlete]

Rather than reiterate McWhorter's brilliant talking points and pressing you on why you don't wholeheartedly agree them as I do, I'll share something I never really considered that we as white people CAN (or rather, NOT do) to have a positive effect on black culture, and that is to avoid consuming and sharing any content that normalizes black violence. I had an aha moment when he mentions that Rick Ross got dropped by Reebok after 100,000 signatures asked them to when one of his songs referenced drugging a woman's champagne. However there is no penalty for endlessly bragging about murdering other black men, and it seems to be tacitly encouraged as staying on script for a gangster rapper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DxHL2i3cZo

Toby Keith wrote a chart-topping song that celebrated bombing in the Middle East. 18 years later we're, still engaged in forever wars over there that have cost  hundreds of thousands of lives. Can we please stop normalizing white violence?

You're missing the point. You're interpreting an anti racist message as a racist message.  Perhaps because it sounded vaguely similar to a Bill O'Reilly talking point. I wouldn't blame you :)

We both know country music is not full of violent lyrics that devalue the lives of black people.

By and large, black music isn't either. There was a time, lets say, from just before the Rodney King riots until 9/11, where rap and hiphop was particularly violent and system shocking. Then we got Crunk rap, which was misogynistic, materialistic, and flaunted the cops a little bit still. Today, the biggest names in hiphop are guys like Kendrick Lamar and Drake. You're more likely to hear them singing about being sad and lonely than killing other black guys. Kendrick even has a lyric where he contemplates his right to be upset about Trayvon Martin given the music he grew up listening to.

Black music and black culture isn't a monolith. Today, it's guys like Kendrick and Drake. Even in the 1990s, you had the family friendly Fresh Prince, and Boyz II Men, who couldn't look like a friendlier group of guys if they tried. In the 80s, Run DMC were famously non-violent and mostly rapped about having a good time. I just listened to a 70s Sister Sledge album yesterday. It was just 40 minutes of love songs. In the 50s and 60s, "black music" meant Chuck Berry.

I know there are still bad portrayals of black men in the media. And both black and white people support it. But the idea that black violence driven in any major way by black music is based on a conception of what black music was at a very specific point in history. And that music was in large part, a reaction to the very problem we're still dealing with today; the brutalization of black people by the police.

The most frustrating part is that white people have the privilege to completely bypass this conversation when misery disproportionally affects them. A whole hell of a lot of white people in the Midwest have killed themselves by way of opioids over the past decade. Do they get lectured on a national level about how this was the logical result of glorifying white trash media like Eminem and Breaking Bad? No. People skip right to the part where we recognize the obvious and systemic problems; alcoholism and opiate addiction diseases of misery and people turn to them because they've been left behind by a modernized economy.

Can we skip to that part of the conversation for black people too?

[charis]

One suggestion.  White parents need to stop fleeing poor, predominantly black public schools for "good schools" because they've convinced themselves that it's not about race, that their kid is not a "guinea pig," and crappy schools exist because the students there and their families don't have the same "values" regarding education.

Stop being a comfortable coward, stand your ground with black parents and demand equity in the public school system. 

Stop with the bullshit performative anti-racism, get out of your comfort zone, and do something real.

[J Boogie]

Crime and violence are topics throughout virtually every genre of music.  Consider "I Fought the Law", The Bobby Fuller Four ("Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won"); "Bohemian Rhapsody", Queen ("Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head, Pulled my trigger, now he's dead"); "Janie's Got a Gun", Aerosmith ("They said when Janie was arrested they found him underneath a train. But man, he had it comin' Now that Janie's got a gun she ain't never gonna be the same.")  Check out Johnny Cash's entire friggin' catalog! Personal fave: "Cocaine Blues" ("Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed, I stuck that lovin' forty-four beneath my head.")

This is why it's racist to suggest that the violence in rap music is somehow responsible for making black communities violent.  All genres of music includes violent songs, but no one ever suggests that Johnny Cash is contributing to violence in the white community.  That would be absurd.  It is similarly absurd to suggest that rap and hip hop music--which is currently the most popular genre in America and enjoyed by millions of law-abiding people of all races--contributes to black violence.

The songs you mentioned don't prove your point. Just because they include violence does not mean they glamourize it. Most of them involve some sort of remorse or artistic ambiguity, whereas most gangster rap violence is along the lines of so and so crossed me so I killed them.

The thing is, there is no particular archetype of a violent white man who everyday white kids want to grow up to be.

idk, lots of white kids want to grow up and be cops.

Perhaps that was tongue in cheek, but even if a person accepts that the police exoterically glorify violence, the narrative is that they're the good guys and they are violent as a means to the end of protecting the innocent.

Whereas the toxic role model I'm referring to glorfies violence against those who disrespect them.

that's your narrative of cops. that's not many, many other folks' narrative of cops. the majority of americans, in fact.

No, I mean that's the narrative that young kids believe about cops when the decide they want to grow up and be cops. So they can stop the bad guys.

[ctuser1]

*Anyone* focusing on "Black culture problems" are engaging in a non-productive discussion at best, an actively harmful one at worst!

Focus on your problems. There are many!! And if you can't recognize your problems - then that is a CRISIS you need to solve yesterday.

[mathlete]

*Anyone* focusing on "Black culture problems" are engaging in a non-productive discussion at best, an actively harmful one at worst!

Focus on your problems. There are many!! And if you can't recognize your problems - then that is a CRISIS you need to solve yesterday.

You're right. I regret how much time I've spent on that in this thread, but I truly believe that people pushing the "black culture" meme aren't racist. They just don't know what they're talking about. But yeah, earlier I had a post that outlined major keystones of institutionalized racism throughout the USA's history. Maybe I should have left it at that.

[J Boogie]

Rather than reiterate McWhorter's brilliant talking points and pressing you on why you don't wholeheartedly agree them as I do, I'll share something I never really considered that we as white people CAN (or rather, NOT do) to have a positive effect on black culture, and that is to avoid consuming and sharing any content that normalizes black violence. I had an aha moment when he mentions that Rick Ross got dropped by Reebok after 100,000 signatures asked them to when one of his songs referenced drugging a woman's champagne. However there is no penalty for endlessly bragging about murdering other black men, and it seems to be tacitly encouraged as staying on script for a gangster rapper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DxHL2i3cZo

Toby Keith wrote a chart-topping song that celebrated bombing in the Middle East. 18 years later we're, still engaged in forever wars over there that have cost  hundreds of thousands of lives. Can we please stop normalizing white violence?

You're missing the point. You're interpreting an anti racist message as a racist message.  Perhaps because it sounded vaguely similar to a Bill O'Reilly talking point. I wouldn't blame you :)

We both know country music is not full of violent lyrics that devalue the lives of black people.

By and large, black music isn't either. There was a time, lets say, from just before the Rodney King riots until 9/11, where rap and hiphop was particularly violent and system shocking. Then we got Crunk rap, which was misogynistic, materialistic, and flaunted the cops a little bit still. Today, the biggest names in hiphop are guys like Kendrick Lamar and Drake. You're more likely to hear them singing about being sad and lonely than killing other black guys. Kendrick even has a lyric where he contemplates his right to be upset about Trayvon Martin given the music he grew up listening to.

Black music and black culture isn't a monolith. Today, it's guys like Kendrick and Drake. Even in the 1990s, you had the family friendly Fresh Prince, and Boyz II Men, who couldn't look like a friendlier group of guys if they tried. In the 80s, Run DMC were famously non-violent and mostly rapped about having a good time. I just listened to a 70s Sister Sledge album yesterday. It was just 40 minutes of love songs. In the 50s and 60s, "black music" meant Chuck Berry.

I know there are still bad portrayals of black men in the media. And both black and white people support it. But the idea that black violence driven in any major way by black music is based on a conception of what black music was at a very specific point in history. And that music was in large part, a reaction to the very problem we're still dealing with today; the brutalization of black people by the police.

The most frustrating part is that white people have the privilege to completely bypass this conversation when misery disproportionally affects them. A whole hell of a lot of white people in the Midwest have killed themselves by way of opioids over the past decade. Do they get lectured on a national level about how this was the logical result of glorifying white trash media like Eminem and Breaking Bad? No. People skip right to the part where we recognize the obvious and systemic problems; alcoholism and opiate addiction diseases of misery and people turn to them because they've been left behind by a modernized economy.

Can we skip to that part of the conversation for black people too?

I haven't argued that all black music is violent, nor that all rap music is violent.

The white deaths of despair you refer to are largely Boomers and older Xers, and you are being intentionally obtuse if you are arguing that these grown folks might have looked to eminem and walter white as role models. Also, when Columbine happened they scoured pop culture for violent music and video games as well.

[Chris22]

Seems like decriminalizing MJ and wiping clean the record (+ releasing from prison as applicable) of anyone who was ever arrested/prosecuted for non-violent MJ crimes would go a long way towards opening up some opportunities for people who had the door slammed on them very early on.

[ctuser1]

Eric, I think it's valid to believe that there might be some problems in black culture that can't blamed 100% on white supremacy.

However you DID title the thread "How do we solve racism in the US?" so it doesn't make much sense to focus on how black people can improve.

If you had titled it something like "How can we achieve equality in the US?" it would make much more sense to focus on how black people can improve.

That being said, Ixtap, I think you'd benefit intellectually from considering the viewpoint of John McWhorter if you're not familiar.  This is from 2006 and it's still incredibly relevant today.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5628075

And the actionable step is??

When was the last time you saw a community change their culture when imposed from outside? Short of successful genocidal events (e.g. Arab invasion of Parsia in the 7th century A.D. I'm deliberately staying off examples closer home so as not to rile up some folks) - that does not happen!!! So, it's none of your business changing black culture unless you are black talking to a black audience!!

What was your point again?