Author Topic: Hey, Trump Voters  (Read 116765 times)

SisterX

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #650 on: December 21, 2016, 11:18:49 AM »
Whatever limitations I may have in my 'infosec', I suspect that you are in no better position to criticize my interpretations.

Quote

Okay, I did have to address this LOL-worthy point. Infosec is quite literally my family's bread and butter. I do not work in it myself, but I am surrounded by friends and family who have and do, including my spouse, one parent, and two siblings. Some of my peeps are quite high up in your favorite tech companies' security divisions. Or, even better, in the companies you've never heard of but which get contracted by those big companies.
In other words, I'm surrounded by professional hackers. I don't think a single day goes by when I don't hear some security/hacking/infosec conversation. So for someone who doesn't actually work in the industry, I have a pretty good grasp of what's going on in it.

Don't think I'd speak up on a topic I know nothing about. By assuming that I would you're betraying your own biases, not my ignorance.

calimom

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #651 on: December 22, 2016, 10:17:34 AM »
Let's talk about ISIS and preventing ISIS agents from getting into America from overseas easily.  Look at Europe and how it is getting overrun by Islamic culture.  Look at the attack on the Christmas market in Germany.  That is what I want to have prevented in the United States.  Tough rules and investigations of potential immigrants is important to prevent terrorists from getting in here.

If that is what you want, given the qualifications of Trump's cabinet appointments so far, I fear you are going to be quite disappointed.

Yeah, if this is a concern it might have been nice to have a President-elect who had been, I dunno, a Secretary of State or something like that, and who would in all likelihood appoint someone with some actual knowledge to that position. Instead of a Big Oil executive who's eager to get his hands on some Russian crude. And it might have been nice to have a President-elect who not only understood what intelligence briefings were all about, much less refusing to take part in them. Instead of tweeting angry rants to Alec Baldwin, having bro-dates with Kanye West and planning Victory Tours.
Republicans get the President they deserve. The rest of us? Not so much.

ender

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #652 on: December 22, 2016, 11:51:11 AM »
if you think that is somehow being overrun by Islamic culture you're deluding yourself.
Just try to picture that; a room full of 100 people and 6 stand up and are Muslim...

"getting overrun" is different than "is overrun."

If you want to make the argument that Europe is currently overrun, that is one thing (that is nearly entirely false). However it is fairly true to say that the percentage of Europe that are Muslims has been increasing and seemingly will increase indefinitely.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #653 on: December 22, 2016, 11:52:08 AM »
Yeah, if this is a concern it might have been nice to have a President-elect who had been, I dunno, a Secretary of State or something like that, and who would in all likelihood appoint someone with some actual knowledge to that position. Instead of a Big Oil executive who's eager to get his hands on some Russian crude. And it might have been nice to have a President-elect who not only understood what intelligence briefings were all about, much less refusing to take part in them. Instead of tweeting angry rants to Alec Baldwin, having bro-dates with Kanye West and planning Victory Tours.
Republicans get the President they deserve. The rest of us? Not so much.

I think the fact that the Democratic party decided to field Hillary, again, would be a sign that they also got what they deserved.

wenchsenior

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #654 on: December 22, 2016, 12:54:38 PM »
Let's talk about ISIS and preventing ISIS agents from getting into America from overseas easily.  Look at Europe and how it is getting overrun by Islamic culture. Look at the attack on the Christmas market in Germany.  That is what I want to have prevented in the United States.  Tough rules and investigations of potential immigrants is important to prevent terrorists from getting in here.

Sorry but that is just ridiculous.


Guardian


Of a 100 people in Germany 6 are Muslim if you think that is somehow being overrun by Islamic culture you're deluding yourself.
Just try to picture that; a room full of 100 people and 6 stand up and are Muslim...

I actually thought the KBecks post was satire.

calimom

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #655 on: December 22, 2016, 03:04:27 PM »
Never underestimate the paranoia of a Trump voter. What we might think of as satire is all in a day's hysteria to them.

KBecks

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #656 on: December 22, 2016, 04:16:04 PM »
Is this stuff fake news?  What do you say about sharia harassment of Europeans
http://www.mrctv.org/blog/sharia-patrols-harassing-citizens-london-belgium-sweden

Lagom

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #657 on: December 22, 2016, 04:27:26 PM »
Is this stuff fake news?  What do you say about sharia harassment of Europeans
http://www.mrctv.org/blog/sharia-patrols-harassing-citizens-london-belgium-sweden

Didn't bother to read the article, but given that it looks like MRC has a heavy conservative bias, it might be. At a minimum I'm sure it's highly exaggerated akin to me pointing at Westboro Baptist Church as proof that Evangelical extremism is overrunning America.

Also, per Snopes (who I'll grant the post-truth types tend not to believe):

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp

KBecks

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golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #659 on: December 23, 2016, 07:26:51 AM »
I think the problem of Islamic terror is not going to get any better with the Islam ban.  NSEERS didn't do much of anything.  It sounds good and makes some people feel all warm and fuzzy, but radicalization is a tougher nut to crack.  My honest opinion though is that Trump really has no interest in solving that problem.  Scared angry citizens are easy to control and manipulate. 

MrMoogle

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #660 on: December 23, 2016, 07:41:08 AM »
I think the problem of Islamic terror is not going to get any better with the Islam ban.  NSEERS didn't do much of anything.  It sounds good and makes some people feel all warm and fuzzy, but radicalization is a tougher nut to crack.  My honest opinion though is that Trump really has no interest in solving that problem.  Scared angry citizens are easy to control and manipulate. 
Honestly, do less (and report on it less) might be the solution.  30k die on the roads due to car crashes each year, and no one is upset.  Crazy people doing harm to others, whether it's school shootings, Islamic terrorists, and I'm sure other events, do fairly little overall harm by the numbers in the US, but everyone is up in arms each time.  It's going to happen, no matter how much money we throw at the problem.  Let's accept it, and agree it is less news worthy, and gain back some of our freedoms, aka repeal the Patriot Act 2.0, I forget it's name now.

MrMoogle

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #661 on: December 23, 2016, 07:50:39 AM »
I think the problem of Islamic terror is not going to get any better with the Islam ban.  NSEERS didn't do much of anything.  It sounds good and makes some people feel all warm and fuzzy, but radicalization is a tougher nut to crack.  My honest opinion though is that Trump really has no interest in solving that problem.  Scared angry citizens are easy to control and manipulate. 
Honestly, do less (and report on it less) might be the solution.  30k die on the roads due to car crashes each year, and no one is upset.  Crazy people doing harm to others, whether it's school shootings, Islamic terrorists, and I'm sure other events, do fairly little overall harm by the numbers in the US, but everyone is up in arms each time.  It's going to happen, no matter how much money we throw at the problem.  Let's accept it, and agree it is less news worthy, and gain back some of our freedoms, aka repeal the Patriot Act 2.0, I forget it's name now.

I agree we should give it less media attention overall.
Nevertheless I had to chuckle at the rest of your post in regards to mass shootings.
I can't see it at work :(

Gal2016

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #662 on: December 23, 2016, 08:08:17 AM »
So, what is newsworthy, then? ... I think that if you've got countries where 1-5% of the population are the source of 99% of the mass murders (such as in European nations), it would probably behoove you to look closely at that 1-5%.

Or you could just ignore it.

golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #663 on: December 23, 2016, 08:10:35 AM »
The thing is, we CAN'T ignore it.  We aren't wired that way. 

I get the whole "More people die in car accidents etc..." arguement, but I don't find it compelling.  Everyone drives so it FEELS less risky.  You have control over how you drive.  Terror incidents have the effect they do because there is no sense of control, no predictability.  It also has the added trauma of seeming so meaningless to anyone who doesn't share the same ideological beliefs as the terrorists.  Rational arguments about numbers and statistics don't help here. 

Kris

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #664 on: December 23, 2016, 08:12:17 AM »
So, what is newsworthy, then? ... I think that if you've got countries where 1-5% of the population are the source of 99% of the mass murders (such as in European nations), it would probably behoove you to look closely at that 1-5%.

Or you could just ignore it.

Wouldn't that be every country?

golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #665 on: December 23, 2016, 08:33:58 AM »
See, thats just it.  We don't have the capability to control every dangerous situation, and deep down we know it.  You can't reliably find the one person who a) has the will,  b) has the capability and c) gets lucky enough that no one catches them.  A bunch of idiots decided to blow up planes and destroy buildings and kill people.  So now we have controls on air travel.  We have surveillance programs and mass phone taps.  We have metal detectors at theme parks.   

What else are we willing to give up in order to make our lives safer?  At some point, a terrorist will try to blow up a chemical plant, hijack a nuclear weapon, cripple our power grid.  They likely have already tried all of these things and other stuff I haven't thought of.  With 7 billion people, total safety is an illusion unless you accept total control of everything. 

Do you know what I would do if the US put up a muslim registry or ban?  Seek to radicalize those who don't "look" typically muslim and won't appear on a registry.  We know this has been done already.  It's a bit harder, but not impossible. 

You don't end terrorism with attempts to control.  It will fail every time. 

KBecks

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #666 on: December 23, 2016, 10:01:24 AM »
You can't not report terrorist events -- its ridiculous.   How could you not report a Sandy Hook, Orlando, San Bernadino, 9/11? 
You can't.  It would be dishonest to diminish these events.

For anti-terrorism, we should at least admit that there is radical Islamic terrorism out there, and focus on that.  Not all Muslims, but the violent fringe.  We should also combat sharia law overtaking non Muslim nations.  There is a problem in Europe with immigrants who are assaulting and raping uncovered women.  See telegraph article above.  Denying this and doing nothing about it is wrong. 

Screening immigrants to America is important.  We want to accept people who are coming here who want to be part of American culture and who are here for a legitimate reason, and not people who basically hate America, women, gays, etc. and have nothing to offer.  This goes for all immigration from everywhere.   

We cannot control everyone and everything but law enforcement, intelligence and national security need to be aware of the trends.  Law enforcement catches potential terrorists at times.  This is good and important work.   They almost had the Orlando shooter.  It's not perfect but the effort is good.  Where I live the FBI caught someone who they believe was planning an attack. 

You have to be careful.  The 9/11 terrorists were not "a bunch of idiots"  they were radical Islamic terrorists who spent months training for a massive terror event.  They were not stupid.  They also had the support and funding and help from many other radical Muslim people. 

We do have controls on air travel and metal detectors at theme parks.  The theme parks *want* that security because otherwise these are massive targets.  I agree that there is a balance of privacy and that the Patriot Act goes too far, but we do need security.  We should want to get the "bad guys" whether they are terrorists, child pornographers, human traffickers, etc.  After Sandy Hook our school put a lock and camera system on the door and you get buzzed in instead of walking right in.  If this is a comfort to staff and parents I'm OK with it. 

Yes, it is our job to make the lives of terrorists extremely difficult and to outsmart them whenever possible.  Yes!

wenchsenior

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #667 on: December 23, 2016, 10:30:29 AM »
Uh huh. Your post seems fairly reasonable on the face of it.

What of the things you outlined above are we not already doing?

The point is, we can (and are) do these things and terrorists are still going to slip through the net occasionally. We aren't going to be able to stop all attacks without a complete police state. I suspect they wouldn't be stopped even by that.

MrMoogle

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #668 on: December 23, 2016, 10:41:26 AM »
You can't not report terrorist events -- its ridiculous.   
I didn't say this.  I said let's not spend 24 hours a day for a week on these events.  Thanks for tearing down that strawman.

Kris

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #669 on: December 23, 2016, 10:46:34 AM »
You can't not report terrorist events -- its ridiculous.   How could you not report a Sandy Hook, Orlando, San Bernadino, 9/11? 
You can't.  It would be dishonest to diminish these events.

For anti-terrorism, we should at least admit that there is radical Islamic terrorism out there, and focus on that.  Not all Muslims, but the violent fringe.  We should also combat sharia law overtaking non Muslim nations.  There is a problem in Europe with immigrants who are assaulting and raping uncovered women.  See telegraph article above.  Denying this and doing nothing about it is wrong. 

Screening immigrants to America is important.  We want to accept people who are coming here who want to be part of American culture and who are here for a legitimate reason, and not people who basically hate America, women, gays, etc. and have nothing to offer.  This goes for all immigration from everywhere.   

We cannot control everyone and everything but law enforcement, intelligence and national security need to be aware of the trends.  Law enforcement catches potential terrorists at times.  This is good and important work.   They almost had the Orlando shooter.  It's not perfect but the effort is good.  Where I live the FBI caught someone who they believe was planning an attack. 

You have to be careful.  The 9/11 terrorists were not "a bunch of idiots"  they were radical Islamic terrorists who spent months training for a massive terror event.  They were not stupid.  They also had the support and funding and help from many other radical Muslim people. 

We do have controls on air travel and metal detectors at theme parks.  The theme parks *want* that security because otherwise these are massive targets.  I agree that there is a balance of privacy and that the Patriot Act goes too far, but we do need security.  We should want to get the "bad guys" whether they are terrorists, child pornographers, human traffickers, etc.  After Sandy Hook our school put a lock and camera system on the door and you get buzzed in instead of walking right in.  If this is a comfort to staff and parents I'm OK with it. 

Yes, it is our job to make the lives of terrorists extremely difficult and to outsmart them whenever possible.  Yes!

Given that most mass killings in the US are done by white native-born men, by your logic shouldn't we be controlling for them?

KBecks

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #670 on: December 23, 2016, 11:56:10 AM »
If they are noticed buying a lot of fertilizer, or learning to fly planes and not land them, etc. etc. etc., yes, they should be identified, monitored, and investigated.  Likewise, it makes perfect sense to screen immigrants for ties to terrorist groups. 

Also note that recently, the demographic of U.S. shooters is changing. 

golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #671 on: December 23, 2016, 12:02:58 PM »
We are already doing most of these things.  I argue that singling out terrorists for their religion is counterproductive and stupid.  You can't prove someone is a certain religion.  There is no screening test for that.  It just a) reinforces the sense of religious persecution that these people already have, b) bolsters recruitment by convincing less radical muslims that we really are at war with all of them so it's time to fight back and c) tells the terrorist organization to pretend they aren't that religion. 

The real way to stop terrorists is to take away the reasons they become radicalized in the first place.

KBecks

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #672 on: December 23, 2016, 12:33:08 PM »

The real way to stop terrorists is to take away the reasons they become radicalized in the first place.

I'm sure we're going to have different answers for these reasons.

sol

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #673 on: December 23, 2016, 12:44:14 PM »

The real way to stop terrorists is to take away the reasons they become radicalized in the first place.

I'm sure we're going to have different answers for these reasons.

Can we at least agree that drone striking their kids and families doesn't help?

I think a lot of people were kind of on the fence about taking up arms against the great Satan, until the great Satan murdered their children.

TexasRunner

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #674 on: December 23, 2016, 01:06:56 PM »

The real way to stop terrorists is to take away the reasons they become radicalized in the first place.

I'm sure we're going to have different answers for these reasons.

Can we at least agree that drone striking their kids and families doesn't help?

I think a lot of people were kind of on the fence about taking up arms against the great Satan, until the great Satan murdered their children.

This.  Notice how little Obama takes for his continued drone BS. 

dycker1978

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #675 on: December 23, 2016, 01:28:15 PM »

The real way to stop terrorists is to take away the reasons they become radicalized in the first place.

I'm sure we're going to have different answers for these reasons.

Can we at least agree that drone striking their kids and families doesn't help?

I think a lot of people were kind of on the fence about taking up arms against the great Satan, until the great Satan murdered their children.

This.  Notice how little Obama takes for his continued drone BS.

This... we go over there and bomb the hell out of them... for oil, or because of weapons of mass destruction.  We steel there oil, we kill their kids... we wont even let countries that have a different beliefs have their own beliefs...

If one country did this to me damn rights I am going to radicalize.  How are they the terrorists... we are..

Gin1984

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #676 on: December 23, 2016, 02:36:59 PM »
You can't not report terrorist events -- its ridiculous.   How could you not report a Sandy Hook, Orlando, San Bernadino, 9/11? 
You can't.  It would be dishonest to diminish these events.

For anti-terrorism, we should at least admit that there is radical Islamic terrorism out there, and focus on that.  Not all Muslims, but the violent fringe.  We should also combat sharia law overtaking non Muslim nations.  There is a problem in Europe with immigrants who are assaulting and raping uncovered women.  See telegraph article above.  Denying this and doing nothing about it is wrong. 

Screening immigrants to America is important.  We want to accept people who are coming here who want to be part of American culture and who are here for a legitimate reason, and not people who basically hate America, women, gays, etc. and have nothing to offer.  This goes for all immigration from everywhere.   

We cannot control everyone and everything but law enforcement, intelligence and national security need to be aware of the trends.  Law enforcement catches potential terrorists at times.  This is good and important work.   They almost had the Orlando shooter.  It's not perfect but the effort is good.  Where I live the FBI caught someone who they believe was planning an attack. 

You have to be careful.  The 9/11 terrorists were not "a bunch of idiots"  they were radical Islamic terrorists who spent months training for a massive terror event.  They were not stupid.  They also had the support and funding and help from many other radical Muslim people. 

We do have controls on air travel and metal detectors at theme parks.  The theme parks *want* that security because otherwise these are massive targets.  I agree that there is a balance of privacy and that the Patriot Act goes too far, but we do need security.  We should want to get the "bad guys" whether they are terrorists, child pornographers, human traffickers, etc.  After Sandy Hook our school put a lock and camera system on the door and you get buzzed in instead of walking right in.  If this is a comfort to staff and parents I'm OK with it. 

Yes, it is our job to make the lives of terrorists extremely difficult and to outsmart them whenever possible.  Yes!
Except the majority of mass shooting are NOT done by Muslim fringe groups but white males in USA.  If you want to stop mass death in the US, focusing on Muslims is ineffective, let's look at why men are bring violent.  What is it about OUR culture that is training men (and boys) that is the what to do. 

Gal2016

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #677 on: December 23, 2016, 02:47:22 PM »
We have few mass shootings given our population size and the diversity of our population.  I know most folks want to lump all "white" people into one big bucket, but I have to point out that there's tremendous diversity even within the white community, alone.  Then there's all the other races and backgrounds and ...

The truth is that the United States has a large, diverse population not found anywhere else in the world.

At some point, we do have to look at what our biggest threats are.  And, quite honestly, a few wackos mowing down 10-40 people isn't what we should be worried about. We should be worried about a few wackos who have the motivation and dedication to kill a thousand or more people through a coordinated attack.  Ideologies of violence and hate are far more terrifying than some mentally ill kid/young adult getting a hold of a hand-gun or two.  And I'm talking about real hate, not just disapproval or withholding whole-hearted approval (cuz the liberals label so many things as "hate" that the word has lost its meaning).

GuitarStv

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #678 on: December 23, 2016, 03:01:14 PM »

The real way to stop terrorists is to take away the reasons they become radicalized in the first place.

I'm sure we're going to have different answers for these reasons.

Can we at least agree that drone striking their kids and families doesn't help?

I think a lot of people were kind of on the fence about taking up arms against the great Satan, until the great Satan murdered their children.

This.  Notice how little Obama takes for his continued drone BS.

I have supported a lot of the stuff that Obama has done, but the continued drone strikes are a serious black mark on his presidency.

Drone strikes are US sponsored terrorism.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #679 on: December 27, 2016, 07:42:16 AM »
We have few mass shootings given our population size and the diversity of our population.  I know most folks want to lump all "white" people into one big bucket, but I have to point out that there's tremendous diversity even within the white community, alone.  Then there's all the other races and backgrounds and ...

The truth is that the United States has a large, diverse population not found anywhere else in the world.

At some point, we do have to look at what our biggest threats are.  And, quite honestly, a few wackos mowing down 10-40 people isn't what we should be worried about. We should be worried about a few wackos who have the motivation and dedication to kill a thousand or more people through a coordinated attack.  Ideologies of violence and hate are far more terrifying than some mentally ill kid/young adult getting a hold of a hand-gun or two.  And I'm talking about real hate, not just disapproval or withholding whole-hearted approval (cuz the liberals label so many things as "hate" that the word has lost its meaning).

It's amazing how similar this debate is to the gun control debate, and how the same ineffective solutions continue to rise to the top of the conversation.

GoConfidently

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #680 on: December 27, 2016, 07:55:52 AM »

For anti-terrorism, we should at least admit that there is radical Islamic terrorism out there, and focus on that.  Not all Muslims, but the violent fringe.  We should also combat sharia law overtaking non Muslim nations.  There is a problem in Europe with immigrants who are assaulting and raping uncovered women.  See telegraph article above.  Denying this and doing nothing about it is wrong. 


There is a problem in America of men assaulting and raping women and then blaming it on what they wear. Except those men aren't all Muslim and it has nothing to do with sharia law. Are you still concerned about rape culture, or is it only a problem when people who don't look like frat boys are doing it?

golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #681 on: December 27, 2016, 08:00:31 AM »
Quote
Posts: 3778
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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #688 on: December 23, 2016, 02:36:59 PM »
Quote
Quote from: KBecks on December 23, 2016, 10:01:24 AM
You can't not report terrorist events -- its ridiculous.   How could you not report a Sandy Hook, Orlando, San Bernadino, 9/11? 
You can't.  It would be dishonest to diminish these events.

For anti-terrorism, we should at least admit that there is radical Islamic terrorism out there, and focus on that.  Not all Muslims, but the violent fringe.  We should also combat sharia law overtaking non Muslim nations.  There is a problem in Europe with immigrants who are assaulting and raping uncovered women.  See telegraph article above.  Denying this and doing nothing about it is wrong. 

Screening immigrants to America is important.  We want to accept people who are coming here who want to be part of American culture and who are here for a legitimate reason, and not people who basically hate America, women, gays, etc. and have nothing to offer.  This goes for all immigration from everywhere.   

We cannot control everyone and everything but law enforcement, intelligence and national security need to be aware of the trends.  Law enforcement catches potential terrorists at times.  This is good and important work.   They almost had the Orlando shooter.  It's not perfect but the effort is good.  Where I live the FBI caught someone who they believe was planning an attack. 

You have to be careful.  The 9/11 terrorists were not "a bunch of idiots"  they were radical Islamic terrorists who spent months training for a massive terror event.  They were not stupid.  They also had the support and funding and help from many other radical Muslim people. 

We do have controls on air travel and metal detectors at theme parks.  The theme parks *want* that security because otherwise these are massive targets.  I agree that there is a balance of privacy and that the Patriot Act goes too far, but we do need security.  We should want to get the "bad guys" whether they are terrorists, child pornographers, human traffickers, etc.  After Sandy Hook our school put a lock and camera system on the door and you get buzzed in instead of walking right in.  If this is a comfort to staff and parents I'm OK with it. 

Yes, it is our job to make the lives of terrorists extremely difficult and to outsmart them whenever possible.  Yes!
Except the majority of mass shooting are NOT done by Muslim fringe groups but white males in USA.  If you want to stop mass death in the US, focusing on Muslims is ineffective, let's look at why men are bring violent.  What is it about OUR culture that is training men (and boys) that is the what to do.

This.  The commonality to mass shooting isn't religion, it's testosterone.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/a-desperate-attempt-to-understand-year-mass-killings_p2/

Quote
So what do all of these people have in common?

* Their average age was 27, no one older than 31.
* Most, but not all, came from broken homes.
* Most, but not all, felt like they had no prospects for the future.
* Most, but not all, had latched onto a violent movement's ideology.
* Some, but not most, had studied or idolized previous mass killers.
* Some, but not most, had histories of criminal activity or violence.
* All of them thought mass murder would give their lives meaning.
* All of them saw their victims as nothing more than fodder -- lifeless vessels to absorb their rage.

Daleth

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #682 on: December 27, 2016, 08:19:31 AM »
We have few mass shootings given our population size and the diversity of our population.  I know most folks want to lump all "white" people into one big bucket, but I have to point out that there's tremendous diversity even within the white community, alone. 

What does diversity have to do with it? Most mass shootings are by white men, and with few exceptions (e.g. Charleston church murders), the victims are mostly white too--and the victims are usually strangers, so it's not as if the shooter ever has the opportunity to determine whether he is or is not the same or a related ethnicity to the victims.

Frankly this just sounds like an excuse. Canada has as much diversity as we do, though in different proportions, and much more tension between white groups in the form of the Quebecois vs. English issues. They have a little over 1/10th of our population (35 million vs. 330 million), but while we have around 9000 gun homicides each year, they have fewer than 200/year. In other words they have FAR less than 1/10th of our gun deaths.

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2015/12/04/news/how-american-gun-deaths-and-gun-laws-compare-canadas

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/07/08/news/americans-are-killing-51-times-more-people-guns-canadians

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #683 on: December 27, 2016, 08:38:07 AM »
We have few mass shootings given our population size and the diversity of our population.  I know most folks want to lump all "white" people into one big bucket, but I have to point out that there's tremendous diversity even within the white community, alone. 

What does diversity have to do with it? Most mass shootings are by white men, and with few exceptions (e.g. Charleston church murders), the victims are mostly white too--and the victims are usually strangers, so it's not as if the shooter ever has the opportunity to determine whether he is or is not the same or a related ethnicity to the victims.

Frankly this just sounds like an excuse. Canada has as much diversity as we do, though in different proportions, and much more tension between white groups in the form of the Quebecois vs. English issues. They have a little over 1/10th of our population (35 million vs. 330 million), but while we have around 9000 gun homicides each year, they have fewer than 200/year. In other words they have FAR less than 1/10th of our gun deaths.

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2015/12/04/news/how-american-gun-deaths-and-gun-laws-compare-canadas

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/07/08/news/americans-are-killing-51-times-more-people-guns-canadians

You are now confusing mass shootings with gun homicides. Completely different topics, that would require completely different tactics to reduce in number.

former player

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #684 on: December 28, 2016, 08:18:56 AM »
You are now confusing mass shootings with gun homicides. Completely different topics, that would require completely different tactics to reduce in number.
Hardly completely different topics, as one is a subset of the other.  In both the USA leads the "civilised" world.

Quidnon?

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #685 on: December 28, 2016, 01:47:53 PM »
You are now confusing mass shootings with gun homicides. Completely different topics, that would require completely different tactics to reduce in number.
Hardly completely different topics, as one is a subset of the other.  In both the USA leads the "civilised" world.

Still true at present, but the trends are favorable to these United States.  And they seem unfavorable for Europe.  Maybe not so much homicides that involve a firearm, but it might not be long before getting a driver's permit would require a security clearance.

MrMoogle

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #686 on: December 28, 2016, 01:54:34 PM »
You are now confusing mass shootings with gun homicides. Completely different topics, that would require completely different tactics to reduce in number.
Hardly completely different topics, as one is a subset of the other.  In both the USA leads the "civilised" world.
Sure, but you can't use homicide stats and talk about mass shootings.  And it is disingenuous to do so. 

If you want to change the topic to make it broader, change the topic.  If you want to use these stats to make the argument, you need to show their relevance.  Neither of which was done here.

Quidnon?

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #687 on: December 28, 2016, 01:55:40 PM »
You are now confusing mass shootings with gun homicides. Completely different topics, that would require completely different tactics to reduce in number.
Hardly completely different topics, as one is a subset of the other.  In both the USA leads the "civilised" world.
Sure, but you can't use homicide stats and talk about mass shootings.  And it is disingenuous to do so. 

If you want to change the topic to make it broader, change the topic.  If you want to use these stats to make the argument, you need to show their relevance.  Neither of which was done here.

Shouldn't this be another thread, if we are going down this path?

SisterX

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #688 on: December 29, 2016, 09:38:36 AM »
but it might not be long before getting a driver's permit would require a security clearance.

I would love it if we had much stricter standards in this country for who can get a driver's license, and why. I don't know why you think security clearance should tie into that, but I do think that we should have much stricter standards for who can drive, and when. And if someone's going to be a dick about it, take the license away immediately for at least six months.

Totally off topic, but you [bizarrely] brought up the idea here [as if it was at all relevant to the current conversation].

Quidnon?

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #689 on: December 29, 2016, 02:08:26 PM »
but it might not be long before getting a driver's permit would require a security clearance.

I would love it if we had much stricter standards in this country for who can get a driver's license, and why. I don't know why you think security clearance should tie into that, but I do think that we should have much stricter standards for who can drive, and when. And if someone's going to be a dick about it, take the license away immediately for at least six months.

Totally off topic, but you [bizarrely] brought up the idea here [as if it was at all relevant to the current conversation].

It was mostly a side reference to the repeated use of large vehicles to inflict terror and harm.

Abe

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #690 on: December 29, 2016, 06:27:29 PM »
what about the people who want to take over parts of our country for an apartheid state, support offshoots of a domestic terrorist organization and/or espouse the ideology of a oligarchic regime whose aggressions cost more US lives than any other state or non-state actor ever?

I'll leave it for you all to guess/vote what organizations I am referring to.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #691 on: December 30, 2016, 05:22:31 AM »
You are now confusing mass shootings with gun homicides. Completely different topics, that would require completely different tactics to reduce in number.
Hardly completely different topics, as one is a subset of the other.  In both the USA leads the "civilised" world.
Sure, but you can't use homicide stats and talk about mass shootings.  And it is disingenuous to do so. 

If you want to change the topic to make it broader, change the topic.  If you want to use these stats to make the argument, you need to show their relevance.  Neither of which was done here.

This.