Author Topic: Hey, Trump Voters  (Read 117003 times)

Gin1984

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #150 on: November 22, 2016, 12:31:27 PM »
If a random stranger walked up to you on the street and said the things that Trump has said, you would likely judge him as a deplorable asshole.  You are rationalizing away his comments because you don't want to believe he is really "that bad".  The country is in the process of doing it for the same reason - we don't want to believe it about ourselves .  Looking in the mirror is just too painful, the thought that we might elect someone that furthers the cause of white supremacy and other groups is not something we as a society are ready to grapple with, so it is easier to look the other way and normalize it or minimize it. 
Trump has said a lot of things.  Sure if you pick out his worst lines, I'd think he's deplorable.  I already think he's an asshole.  I don't have a lot of respect for him, I'll respect the office he's about to hold, which is the same I do for Obama (but for completely different reasons).  I'm not sure that I want to believe he really is not "that bad."  I want to make an unbiased opinion of him, which is very difficult based on the sources available.
He bragged about assault women.  This is not picking and choosing his worse comments but frankly I doubt many men are sitting there bragging about assaulting women and if they are, they are deplorable. 

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Kris

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #151 on: November 22, 2016, 12:41:51 PM »

Why are either of these last two replies relevant to how people felt after the election?  Some (few?) liberals feel dread now, some (few?) conservatives felt dread then.  That was the question, not are Obama and Trump the same people.

I'm truly sorry if you felt the same kind of anxiety and dread that many liberals (not just a few) are feeling now. I really hope you're right that this is just another conservative administration. I can't say I'm convinced at this point.
I never said I did.  I was disappointed when Obama won.  I'm disappointed with his presidency.  I didn't have anxiety or dread.  I also don't have statistics on how many liberals can't sleep at night like you cannot.  I doubt it's that many, but I could be wrong.  I'm sure there were conservatives who couldn't sleep at night after Obama won.  I have no idea if it's more or less than cannot now.

I'm also disappointed Trump won.  I'm not disappointed he beat Hillary. 

I am truly sorry you feel that kind of anxiety and dread.  I'm not trying to dismiss your feelings.  I'm just having trouble understanding them.  As I had trouble with people who had similar feelings about Obama.  And I'm not saying it's the same, but to me, it's similar.  They both seem overblown to me.  Maybe it's a fault in me for not being able to understand.

I'm going to assume that you have not been following the news very closely. People are feeling dread in response to actual increases in violence and hatred since the election. And in response to various appointments by Trump that suggest that the climate for anyone who is not a white, straight, Christian is likely to only get worse in the future.

http://time.com/4569129/racist-anti-semitic-incidents-donald-trump/

http://fortune.com/2016/11/13/trump-election-racist-incidents/

Do you have stats on this?  Saying it's up doesn't mean much to me.  How does it compare to after Obama's wins?  If it's up 100%, which is the order the article implies (but not states), that certainly is something to be concerned of.  The question was asked on 11/11.  At the time, the only publicized ones I had heard of, were proven to be inaccurate.  And no, I don't follow the news very closely, but I had seen an article similar to this.  Sadly, hate happens daily in the US.  It fits the MSM narrative that Trump is deplorable.  Assigning blame to Trump because hate exists is biased, and I've seen enough bias from the MSM (on both sides).  Now if it truly is hate because of Trump, show me and I'll be more concerned.  Without stats, I cannot make an informed decision.

I'm not sure I'm brushing it off.  You have every right to be concerned, I'm concerned, but I can't understand letting it affect my mental health.  Not being able to sleep is a serious issue.  Maybe I just don't have the data.  Maybe this really is Hitler 2.0, and conservatives just gave the nation away, but I'm not seeing it.  Personally, I'm more concerned about freedom of the press.  Obama had submitted a bill a while ago to require fact checking or something like that.  Trump could easily turn that into something nefarious to attack everyone who had been saying bad things about him.  Then claim, "I just made Obama's bill passable."

Before the election, I went to a few liberal sites to see what they thought of Trump.  And while none of it was good, reading through more of the transcripts made it seem not nearly as bad as had been stated.  Actually it made me feel better about Trump, if that's all they had against him, mostly snippets taken out of context.

I have not looked into his cabinet.  To me, it's not nearly as important, I have no control over it, and there's too much details to learn, I have other things to spend time on.

The Southern Poverty Law Center does:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/11/18/update-incidents-hateful-harassment-election-day-now-number-701

Maybe you won't feel the need to let these worries affect you. Because they're not likely to hurt you specifically. Or perhaps anyone in your close circle.

But if that's all you worry about, then I'd argue you may find yourself on the wrong side of history one of these days.

scantee

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #152 on: November 22, 2016, 01:09:55 PM »
If a random stranger walked up to you on the street and said the things that Trump has said, you would likely judge him as a deplorable asshole.  You are rationalizing away his comments because you don't want to believe he is really "that bad".  The country is in the process of doing it for the same reason - we don't want to believe it about ourselves .  Looking in the mirror is just too painful, the thought that we might elect someone that furthers the cause of white supremacy and other groups is not something we as a society are ready to grapple with, so it is easier to look the other way and normalize it or minimize it. 
Trump has said a lot of things.  Sure if you pick out his worst lines, I'd think he's deplorable.  I already think he's an asshole.  I don't have a lot of respect for him, I'll respect the office he's about to hold, which is the same I do for Obama (but for completely different reasons).  I'm not sure that I want to believe he really is not "that bad."  I want to make an unbiased opinion of him, which is very difficult based on the sources available.

If you pick out his best lines, he's still deplorable. Donald Trump at his absolute best is still a small-minded, insecure, corrupt man. You don't need to search far and wide for news sources to come to this conclusion, you just have to listen, not even that carefully, to the words that are coming directly out of his own mouth.

SisterX

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #153 on: November 22, 2016, 01:32:36 PM »
Do you have stats on this?  Saying it's up doesn't mean much to me.  How does it compare to after Obama's wins?  If it's up 100%, which is the order the article implies (but not states), that certainly is something to be concerned of.  The question was asked on 11/11.  At the time, the only publicized ones I had heard of, were proven to be inaccurate.  And no, I don't follow the news very closely, but I had seen an article similar to this.  Sadly, hate happens daily in the US.  It fits the MSM narrative that Trump is deplorable.  Assigning blame to Trump because hate exists is biased, and I've seen enough bias from the MSM (on both sides).  Now if it truly is hate because of Trump, show me and I'll be more concerned.  Without stats, I cannot make an informed decision.

I'm not sure I'm brushing it off.  You have every right to be concerned, I'm concerned, but I can't understand letting it affect my mental health.  Not being able to sleep is a serious issue.  Maybe I just don't have the data.  Maybe this really is Hitler 2.0, and conservatives just gave the nation away, but I'm not seeing it.  Personally, I'm more concerned about freedom of the press.  Obama had submitted a bill a while ago to require fact checking or something like that.  Trump could easily turn that into something nefarious to attack everyone who had been saying bad things about him.  Then claim, "I just made Obama's bill passable."

Before the election, I went to a few liberal sites to see what they thought of Trump.  And while none of it was good, reading through more of the transcripts made it seem not nearly as bad as had been stated.  Actually it made me feel better about Trump, if that's all they had against him, mostly snippets taken out of context.

I have not looked into his cabinet.  To me, it's not nearly as important, I have no control over it, and there's too much details to learn, I have other things to spend time on.

So, you're going to ignore it when someone does present an article with actual facts, then claim that you're not "brushing it off"? That's being disingenuous. Did you even read the articles? There were a few that have been found to be false. The vast majority, however, have been proven (through eyewitnesses, video and cell phone footage) to be true. And considering the number of people who've made statements about Trump while doing/saying stuff, or grafitti'd "Trump" next to their messages of hate, you're once again being factually oblivious if you think that it's not supported by the rise of Trump and those like him.
Hell, the KKK and neo-Nazis are calling his win a "victory". How are you not getting this?
Also, if you're not looking into the people he surrounds himself with, or those who are supporting him the most heavily (here and around the world) then how are you trying to form an objective opinion? Because yes, a person is more than just their own statements (and no, his haven't been taken out of context--there's no context that can make "pussy grabbing" acceptable). But when a person makes deplorable statements and then is surrounded by other people who are worrisome, that's cause for deep concern. And that's exactly what we're seeing with Trump.

RosieTR

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #154 on: November 22, 2016, 01:36:29 PM »

I never said I did.  I was disappointed when Obama won.  I'm disappointed with his presidency.  I didn't have anxiety or dread.  I also don't have statistics on how many liberals can't sleep at night like you cannot.  I doubt it's that many, but I could be wrong.  I'm sure there were conservatives who couldn't sleep at night after Obama won.  I have no idea if it's more or less than cannot now.

I'm also disappointed Trump won.  I'm not disappointed he beat Hillary. 

I am truly sorry you feel that kind of anxiety and dread.  I'm not trying to dismiss your feelings.  I'm just having trouble understanding them.  As I had trouble with people who had similar feelings about Obama.  And I'm not saying it's the same, but to me, it's similar.  They both seem overblown to me.  Maybe it's a fault in me for not being able to understand.

Quick note: appreciate your nuance and open-mindedness, as well as your willingness to hear others. I so hope that there's more of that as the days go on, and I think there will  be. Trump is going to disappoint Americans in a way that is not partisan.

There are people he supports, people in his close circle of advisors, that are openly white supremacists. Isn't that concerning? If Obama had been a part of a group that talked about how white people were inferior to POCs, don't you think that white people in majority POC areas would be terrified? Especially after hate crimes started occurring without any condemnation from the president-elect?

To reiterate, this is not a partisan issue. This is not liberals vs. conservatives. After the most  horrifying terror attack on our soil, President Bush made a point of telling Americans that Islam and Muslims were not our enemy. That is what a President does. He serves all Americans. Despite my disagreements with Bush re: his policies, I remember very vividly as a child bursting into tears of gratitude that my President had said those words, especially after my heart was in pieces post 9/11.

There are people close to trump using the Japanese internment as a positive precedent for future policies. The internment of Japanese people is a blight on our history, widely regarded to be ineffective, unjust, unAmerican at its core. I can't imagine that it exists in our discourse as anything else but a shameful story of wrongs we will never revisit.

But such are the times. And so, naturally, those of us who are Muslim begin to wonder -- is this just the beginning of worse? And yes, we look to history, at the Holocaust, which still boggles my mind that any sane person could ever be a part of. But an entire nation was. It's strange to be in a position where the worst case scenario feels like hyperbole, but you've got a leader who's making you doubt whether it's impossible it could happen again.

I think Meowkins said it best. Always before, no matter how much I disagreed with a President, I thought that he probably was at least intending to try to do good for his country. I don't have that thought with Trump. Not at all. That's why I'm deeply disturbed. It feels like how you might feel watching a somewhat cheesy horror film, where you want to yell at the character "don't go in there! Can't you see that the killer is in there?" except now I'm inside the film and the boogey man is president. I seriously HOPE I'm overreacting. I hope we are just going to have a retrenchment of civil rights. I absolutely shudder to think what a Trump president would do if we had anything close to 9/11. In my darkest moments, I cynically think that it's possible he would create a 9/11 in order to have an excuse to impose severe restrictions on freedoms. (And no I don't think that attack was orchestrated by anyone other than Al Qaeda. I'm not a conspiracy theorist.) This goes way beyond garden-variety racism and sexism though the fact that Trump did not give one shit about saying whatever he thought speaks to his idea that he has exactly zero constraints. Probably that's why I'm so disturbed that it was rewarded. Part of my reaction may be that I grew up with a brother who fits a lot of the criteria for being a sociopath. It's a weird feeling to know that you can just never trust a person at any level and that's what I think about Trump.

If you have reasons to think otherwise, please share them. It sucks feeling this way about the future of my country.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 01:42:22 PM by RosieTR »

MrMoogle

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #155 on: November 22, 2016, 01:47:37 PM »

Do you have stats on this? 
*snip*
I'm not sure I'm brushing it off.  You have every right to be concerned, I'm concerned, but I can't understand letting it affect my mental health. 
*snip*

The Southern Poverty Law Center does:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/11/18/update-incidents-hateful-harassment-election-day-now-number-701

Maybe you won't feel the need to let these worries affect you. Because they're not likely to hurt you specifically. Or perhaps anyone in your close circle.

But if that's all you worry about, then I'd argue you may find yourself on the wrong side of history one of these days.
Thanks for the link.  Not sure why you think the rest of your reply.

From the link:
Quote
The SPLC made efforts to verify each report but many included in the count remain anecdotal.
~ 700 incidents in those 8 days, many anecdotal. 

I couldn't find much about 2008 other than:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-hate-crimes-against-muslims-up-67-percent-2015/
Quote
In 2008, after Barack Obama was elected as the nation’s first black president, there were also suspected cases of alleged hate crimes tied to the election.
It also gives stats on 2015:
Quote
Overall, the number of reported hate crimes increased from 5,479 in 2014 to 5,850 [2015]
So, on average 112 per week, or 16/day, which is around what SPLC reported for day 8 (11/16). 
The 2015 number is also hate crimes, and SPLC is talking about hate incidents.  There's obviously going to be more hate incidents than crimes.  And there was a suspected uptick with Obama too.  How much uptick after an election is "normal?"

I feel like I don't have enough information to be conclusive.  The FBI's report won't be out for another year, which is a long time to wait if there is something going on.  Hopefully someone with more data than I have can do a better analysis sooner. 

It sounds really bad, but I don't have something to normalize it off of.  Just like 35,000 deaths from car accidents sound bad, but that's just standard in the US.

MrMoogle

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #156 on: November 22, 2016, 01:53:37 PM »
Do you have stats on this?  Saying it's up doesn't mean much to me.  How does it compare to after Obama's wins?  If it's up 100%, which is the order the article implies (but not states), that certainly is something to be concerned of.  The question was asked on 11/11.  At the time, the only publicized ones I had heard of, were proven to be inaccurate.  And no, I don't follow the news very closely, but I had seen an article similar to this.  Sadly, hate happens daily in the US.  It fits the MSM narrative that Trump is deplorable.  Assigning blame to Trump because hate exists is biased, and I've seen enough bias from the MSM (on both sides).  Now if it truly is hate because of Trump, show me and I'll be more concerned.  Without stats, I cannot make an informed decision.

I'm not sure I'm brushing it off.  You have every right to be concerned, I'm concerned, but I can't understand letting it affect my mental health.  Not being able to sleep is a serious issue.  Maybe I just don't have the data.  Maybe this really is Hitler 2.0, and conservatives just gave the nation away, but I'm not seeing it.  Personally, I'm more concerned about freedom of the press.  Obama had submitted a bill a while ago to require fact checking or something like that.  Trump could easily turn that into something nefarious to attack everyone who had been saying bad things about him.  Then claim, "I just made Obama's bill passable."

Before the election, I went to a few liberal sites to see what they thought of Trump.  And while none of it was good, reading through more of the transcripts made it seem not nearly as bad as had been stated.  Actually it made me feel better about Trump, if that's all they had against him, mostly snippets taken out of context.

I have not looked into his cabinet.  To me, it's not nearly as important, I have no control over it, and there's too much details to learn, I have other things to spend time on.

So, you're going to ignore it when someone does present an article with actual facts, then claim that you're not "brushing it off"? That's being disingenuous. Did you even read the articles? There were a few that have been found to be false. The vast majority, however, have been proven (through eyewitnesses, video and cell phone footage) to be true. And considering the number of people who've made statements about Trump while doing/saying stuff, or grafitti'd "Trump" next to their messages of hate, you're once again being factually oblivious if you think that it's not supported by the rise of Trump and those like him.
Hell, the KKK and neo-Nazis are calling his win a "victory". How are you not getting this?
Also, if you're not looking into the people he surrounds himself with, or those who are supporting him the most heavily (here and around the world) then how are you trying to form an objective opinion? Because yes, a person is more than just their own statements (and no, his haven't been taken out of context--there's no context that can make "pussy grabbing" acceptable). But when a person makes deplorable statements and then is surrounded by other people who are worrisome, that's cause for deep concern. And that's exactly what we're seeing with Trump.
They were the same article.  So I didn't read the second one.  They had anecdotal evidence, not hard numbers.  It said 200 hate incidents since the election.  Is that normal post election?  Is that normal for a week in the US?  I have no idea.  Please, give me context. 

wenchsenior

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #157 on: November 22, 2016, 01:57:12 PM »

Also, it's not just a few liberals who are having trouble sleeping. This is not normal outrage at an election that didn't go our way, this is genuine fear for the future and what this means about some of our fellow countrymen/women.


Raising my hand as privileged white woman who is having trouble sleeping and experiencing nightmares due to the election results.

I mean, I wasn't happy when Bush was reelected but I kind of laughed at my college roommate who spent the morning after the election curled into a fetal position on the floor.  I was thinking "come on, it's not that bad".  Now that's me and  this time I'm afraid it really is that bad.  Though I hope I'm wrong.  I hope he's a kick ass president and we all laugh at ourselves in a few years.

Another privileged white woman who is definitely having trouble sleeping since the election.

First, let me say that I see one potential upside to a Trump presidency, and that is the possibility of finally getting a big infrastructure funding package through congress. I would be unequivocally pleased about that.

On the LESS upsetting end of the extremely frightening scale 1) Trump is personally appalling and (unlike Clinton) doesn't seem to understand what a president's role and responsibilities actually are; and 2) Trump has very little personal self-control; and 3) seems to have very little grasp of policy or even any personal convictions that he sticks to, other than enriching himself and his family. As a result of 1-3, he might involve us in some kind of international military conflict through sheer ignorance or possibly because of a personal temper tantrum; 4) immigration reform, which is a tough nut at the best of times, but at least had some bipartisan acknowledgement that reform had to happen, is now trending toward expensive and inhumane deportations and 'walls', but is highly UNLIKELY to target the single most effective way to reduce immigration, which is to crack the hell down on any businesses that employ them. 5) Trump's election tacitly normalizes sexism and racism (and potentially LBGT bashing...although Trump himself doesn't seem to condone that), and will likely usher in an in increase in voter suppression and lack of prosecution of civil rights violations. 6) Trump is likely to normalize personal enrichment while in office of himself and his family (which used to take place after politicians left the presidency) in the style of dictator or fascist leader. (This, to a lesser extent, would have been a potential problem with a Clinton presidency as well.) 7) Potential fully conservative Supreme Court for the remainder of my lifetime. I understand how this one issue might have galvanized conservatives to vote for Trump, despite misgivings. Likewise, it was a real galvanizer for the rest of us to vote against him.

Those are all actually the LESSER concerns to me, however. What keeps waking me up at night in a cold sweat are much bigger issues, pertaining to all three branches of gov't being controlled by the GOP with a crazy figure like Trump at the head.

1) A real possibility of Paul Ryan's budget plan being passed.  For the few positives in his plan (such as reforming corporate taxes and simplifying the tax code) you would get the appalling trade-off of gutting Medicaid, which would devastate the poor (especially poor old people in their final years, as well as said old peoples' younger family members that would then have to somehow absorb that cost of elder care) and privatizing Medicare, which would potentially also put health care in retirement out of reach for all the but the wealthy. 

2) Trump's cabinet appointments, which indicate a real turn toward hard right Neocon insanity, which lest everyone forget, is exactly how we ended up in an pointless war in Iraq in the first place and is liable to further feed terrorists recruitment efforts to gin up a 'clash of civilizations'.  Maybe Congress will prevent the worst case from developing here, but I expect skyrocketing military spending at the most benign, and full on troop deployment warfare in the Middle East or proxy nations, in the worst case.

3) A  potential to try to threaten or shut down independent journalism, through denial of access, threats of lawsuits, personal intimidation of journalists, etc. Also, potential to try to restrict freedom of speech at a broader scale.

4) Finally, and of primary concern to me, is the absolute dismissal of science and evidence based reasoning, particularly pertaining to climate change and environmental issues, in favor of ill informed populist emotional reasoning or bug fucking crazy Christian fundamentalism. Potential for anti-reality educational curricula spreading across the nation, further impeding our nation's ability to function in the future. Potential gutting of budgets for scientific research, intimidation and suppression of federal research results on topics not friendly to big corporations or above mentioned fundamentalists (climate change, pollution, etc....this happened under W's admin as well, and I expect it to be MUCH worse now). Potential to privatize a bunch of federal land (including, in worst case scenarios, National Parks and Monuments) and knee cap funding for wild landscapes/wildlife protection.

Yeah...those last four are monumentally frightening. 

Completely aside from these, there's all the usual run of the mill BS that is likely to happen that I hate, but that doesn't actively frighten me. Much bigger deficits, more tax-cuts for the wealthy trickle-down crap, more gerrymandering, more religious intrusion into governance, etc. But that's just typical GOP modus operandi, rather than the potentially catastrophic shit show that I think could potentially happen.


 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #158 on: November 23, 2016, 05:02:47 AM »
The fact that people think Trump will be like Hitler or another evil dictator is just kind of insane to me. Will he be a good president? Who knows, but I doubt he will be much better or worse than all the others we have had.

I honestly don't think the public has anything to fear from Trump. The public should fear the rest of the public.

+1.
Except that his election has correlated with an increase in hate crimes against minorities and women.  He emboldened his base and his base is harming people.  And he is not doing a damn thing to stop it.

Nope. Radio silence from him.

But those terrible Hamilton actors? SNL? THOSE are the burning social issues Trump chooses to denounce.

Again - False. I'm sure it will be argued he could have said it faster or louder or more eloquently; but the fact remains that he has denounced these groups, in his own particular Trump style.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-disavow-groups-new-york-times/index.html
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 05:16:41 AM by Metric Mouse »

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #159 on: November 23, 2016, 05:21:26 AM »
Do you have stats on this?  Saying it's up doesn't mean much to me.  How does it compare to after Obama's wins?  If it's up 100%, which is the order the article implies (but not states), that certainly is something to be concerned of.  The question was asked on 11/11.  At the time, the only publicized ones I had heard of, were proven to be inaccurate.  And no, I don't follow the news very closely, but I had seen an article similar to this.  Sadly, hate happens daily in the US.  It fits the MSM narrative that Trump is deplorable.  Assigning blame to Trump because hate exists is biased, and I've seen enough bias from the MSM (on both sides).  Now if it truly is hate because of Trump, show me and I'll be more concerned.  Without stats, I cannot make an informed decision.

I'm not sure I'm brushing it off.  You have every right to be concerned, I'm concerned, but I can't understand letting it affect my mental health.  Not being able to sleep is a serious issue.  Maybe I just don't have the data.  Maybe this really is Hitler 2.0, and conservatives just gave the nation away, but I'm not seeing it.  Personally, I'm more concerned about freedom of the press.  Obama had submitted a bill a while ago to require fact checking or something like that.  Trump could easily turn that into something nefarious to attack everyone who had been saying bad things about him.  Then claim, "I just made Obama's bill passable."

Before the election, I went to a few liberal sites to see what they thought of Trump.  And while none of it was good, reading through more of the transcripts made it seem not nearly as bad as had been stated.  Actually it made me feel better about Trump, if that's all they had against him, mostly snippets taken out of context.

I have not looked into his cabinet.  To me, it's not nearly as important, I have no control over it, and there's too much details to learn, I have other things to spend time on.

So, you're going to ignore it when someone does present an article with actual facts, then claim that you're not "brushing it off"? That's being disingenuous. Did you even read the articles? There were a few that have been found to be false. The vast majority, however, have been proven (through eyewitnesses, video and cell phone footage) to be true. And considering the number of people who've made statements about Trump while doing/saying stuff, or grafitti'd "Trump" next to their messages of hate, you're once again being factually oblivious if you think that it's not supported by the rise of Trump and those like him.
Hell, the KKK and neo-Nazis are calling his win a "victory". How are you not getting this?
Also, if you're not looking into the people he surrounds himself with, or those who are supporting him the most heavily (here and around the world) then how are you trying to form an objective opinion? Because yes, a person is more than just their own statements (and no, his haven't been taken out of context--there's no context that can make "pussy grabbing" acceptable). But when a person makes deplorable statements and then is surrounded by other people who are worrisome, that's cause for deep concern. And that's exactly what we're seeing with Trump.

I think the most important part of the SPLC's findings were that there was a strong uptick that rapidly trended downward towards the average. As has been pointed out, there was an uptick after previous elections as well. While there is no denying that 'hate incidents' increased sharply for a very limited period of time (even factoring in the false ones - who the fuck would make up something like that, btw?), the number very quickly trended back to the mean. It's hard to draw conclusions with this little evidence (though this obviously doesn't stop people) but statistically speaking, and drawing from historical examples, it seems unlikely that there will be a significant longer-term uptick in 'hate incidents', and even less likely for 'hate crimes'. 

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #160 on: November 23, 2016, 06:15:15 AM »
The fact that people think Trump will be like Hitler or another evil dictator is just kind of insane to me. Will he be a good president? Who knows, but I doubt he will be much better or worse than all the others we have had.

I honestly don't think the public has anything to fear from Trump. The public should fear the rest of the public.

+1.
Except that his election has correlated with an increase in hate crimes against minorities and women.  He emboldened his base and his base is harming people.  And he is not doing a damn thing to stop it.

Nope. Radio silence from him.

But those terrible Hamilton actors? SNL? THOSE are the burning social issues Trump chooses to denounce.

Again - False. I'm sure it will be argued he could have said it faster or louder or more eloquently; but the fact remains that he has denounced these groups, in his own particular Trump style.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-disavow-groups-new-york-times/index.html

Based on your response, I don't think you understand what Trump said.

"I don't want to energize the group, and I disavow the group"

Let's see here.

Disavow: to say that you are not responsible for (something) : to deny that you know about or are involved in (something)

So Trump has said that he doesn't want Neo-Nazis to be enthusiastic.  He denies knowing about or being responsible for their jubilation.  That's what he has said.  What hasn't he said?

- He hasn't denounced the group in any way.
- He hasn't told people that they shouldn't follow them.
- He hasn't said that he himself finds anything wrong with their message.

frugalnacho

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #161 on: November 23, 2016, 06:29:17 AM »

Based on your response, I don't think you understand what Trump said.

"I don't want to energize the group, and I disavow the group"

Let's see here.

Disavow: to say that you are not responsible for (something) : to deny that you know about or are involved in (something)

So Trump has said that he doesn't want Neo-Nazis to be enthusiastic.  He denies knowing about or being responsible for their jubilation.  That's what he has said.  What hasn't he said?

- He hasn't denounced the group in any way.
- He hasn't told people that they shouldn't follow them.
- He hasn't said that he himself finds anything wrong with their message.


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-disavows-alt-group-condemn/story?id=43723904

Quote
“I condemn them. I disavow, and I condemn,”

GuitarStv

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #162 on: November 23, 2016, 06:32:06 AM »
Oh.  Well that's a (slightly) better wording from Trump than was provided in the article linked by Metric Mouse.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #163 on: November 23, 2016, 06:32:27 AM »
Based on your response, I don't think you understand what Trump said.

"I don't want to energize the group, and I disavow the group"

Let's see here.

Disavow: to say that you are not responsible for (something) : to deny that you know about or are involved in (something)

So Trump has said that he doesn't want Neo-Nazis to be enthusiastic.  He denies knowing about or being responsible for their jubilation.  That's what he has said.  What hasn't he said?

- He hasn't denounced the group in any way.
- He hasn't told people that they shouldn't follow them.
- He hasn't said that he himself finds anything wrong with their message.

Perhaps you didn't understand what he said. "'I condemn them. I disavow, and I condemn."

con·demn.

VERB
1.express complete disapproval of, typically in public; censure:

Again, no one is arguing his wording is perfect; but certain people are always going to pick apart what he says (or what they think he says) without reading entire quotes and putting them into context. So one could certainly argue they feel that he should have used stronger words, or said them louder, or condemned quicker, or denounced instead of condemned or whatever - but to say "Radio silence" or to imply that he hasn't publicly distanced himself from these groups is clearly incorrect.

frugalnacho

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #164 on: November 23, 2016, 06:35:43 AM »
Oh.  Well that's a (slightly) better wording from Trump than was provided in the article linked by Metric Mouse.

The article metric mouse posted said he condemned them, but didn't actually quote him saying the word condemn.  It is in the video for that same article though.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #165 on: November 23, 2016, 06:38:24 AM »
Oh.  Well that's a (slightly) better wording from Trump than was provided in the article linked by Metric Mouse.

The article metric mouse posted said he condemned them, but didn't actually quote him saying the word condemn.  It is in the video for that same article though.

Yeah - the video was much more focused on the Alt-Right meeting than on Trumps condemnation. Typical splash media stuff, I felt.

Oh.  Well that's a (slightly) better wording from Trump than was provided in the article linked by Metric Mouse.

Sorry - I should have linked his exact quotes earlier, instead of assuming interested persons would research them based off the starting point I linked. I use CNN because it is a relatively unbiased national source. I was lazy, and it was not as helpful to the dialogue as I could have been.

Kris

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #166 on: November 23, 2016, 06:49:17 AM »
Not enough. This is doing the very bare minimum so his supporters and those who don't want to look closely will say, "See, nothing to worry about." Meanwhile, they will continue courting the white-supremacists, and the violence will increase, with only the occasional, "Oh, that's too bad," from the Trump White House. Revolting.

Gin1984

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #167 on: November 23, 2016, 07:22:22 AM »
Do you have stats on this?  Saying it's up doesn't mean much to me.  How does it compare to after Obama's wins?  If it's up 100%, which is the order the article implies (but not states), that certainly is something to be concerned of.  The question was asked on 11/11.  At the time, the only publicized ones I had heard of, were proven to be inaccurate.  And no, I don't follow the news very closely, but I had seen an article similar to this.  Sadly, hate happens daily in the US.  It fits the MSM narrative that Trump is deplorable.  Assigning blame to Trump because hate exists is biased, and I've seen enough bias from the MSM (on both sides).  Now if it truly is hate because of Trump, show me and I'll be more concerned.  Without stats, I cannot make an informed decision.

I'm not sure I'm brushing it off.  You have every right to be concerned, I'm concerned, but I can't understand letting it affect my mental health.  Not being able to sleep is a serious issue.  Maybe I just don't have the data.  Maybe this really is Hitler 2.0, and conservatives just gave the nation away, but I'm not seeing it.  Personally, I'm more concerned about freedom of the press.  Obama had submitted a bill a while ago to require fact checking or something like that.  Trump could easily turn that into something nefarious to attack everyone who had been saying bad things about him.  Then claim, "I just made Obama's bill passable."

Before the election, I went to a few liberal sites to see what they thought of Trump.  And while none of it was good, reading through more of the transcripts made it seem not nearly as bad as had been stated.  Actually it made me feel better about Trump, if that's all they had against him, mostly snippets taken out of context.

I have not looked into his cabinet.  To me, it's not nearly as important, I have no control over it, and there's too much details to learn, I have other things to spend time on.

So, you're going to ignore it when someone does present an article with actual facts, then claim that you're not "brushing it off"? That's being disingenuous. Did you even read the articles? There were a few that have been found to be false. The vast majority, however, have been proven (through eyewitnesses, video and cell phone footage) to be true. And considering the number of people who've made statements about Trump while doing/saying stuff, or grafitti'd "Trump" next to their messages of hate, you're once again being factually oblivious if you think that it's not supported by the rise of Trump and those like him.
Hell, the KKK and neo-Nazis are calling his win a "victory". How are you not getting this?
Also, if you're not looking into the people he surrounds himself with, or those who are supporting him the most heavily (here and around the world) then how are you trying to form an objective opinion? Because yes, a person is more than just their own statements (and no, his haven't been taken out of context--there's no context that can make "pussy grabbing" acceptable). But when a person makes deplorable statements and then is surrounded by other people who are worrisome, that's cause for deep concern. And that's exactly what we're seeing with Trump.

I think the most important part of the SPLC's findings were that there was a strong uptick that rapidly trended downward towards the average. As has been pointed out, there was an uptick after previous elections as well. While there is no denying that 'hate incidents' increased sharply for a very limited period of time (even factoring in the false ones - who the fuck would make up something like that, btw?), the number very quickly trended back to the mean. It's hard to draw conclusions with this little evidence (though this obviously doesn't stop people) but statistically speaking, and drawing from historical examples, it seems unlikely that there will be a significant longer-term uptick in 'hate incidents', and even less likely for 'hate crimes'.
The same people who would file any other false report.  The FBI statistics show that to be between 2-8% of all reports.

shenlong55

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #168 on: November 23, 2016, 07:23:43 AM »
Personally, I think I would prefer him to take responsibility for his actions rather than disavowing/denouncing/condemning these events/groups.  If he would acknowledge that his actions are at least partially responsible for these things then I would be a lot more confident that at least he's trying to avoid causing the same harm in the future.  I think that's really what I'm looking for from his supporters too, but generally all I see is people getting defensive and not wanting to accept responsibility for their actions.  Just because you didn't want bigots to be emboldened by Trumps election doesn't negate the fact that they were.  Just acknowledge that you played some part in emboldening bigots and try to work on not doing it again, that's all I ask.

BTW, I fully intend to hold myself and others liberals to the same standard.  I've read a lot about liberals going straight to calling people racists in the past couple weeks.  That's not anyone that I know, but if I hear it in the future I fully intend to call it out.  I intend to advocate more forcefully for the democratic party to move towards a populist agenda.  I also think liberals may need to work on extending the reach of our social programs outside of the cities.  It seems like some of the rural voters don't recognize the value of these programs because they're difficult to access in their areas.  These are just some of the things that I intend to improve upon to hopefully avoid this kind of outcome in the future.  What are Trump and his supporters doing to avoid emboldening bigots in the future?

ETA: I would also be fine with someone accepting responsibility and being fine with emboldening bigots.  If you thinks that's an okay thing to do, then no need to change your actions.  I disagree wholeheartedly, but if that's what you believe then so be it.  The important part is accepting responsibility (to me).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 08:21:17 AM by shenlong55 »

golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #169 on: November 23, 2016, 07:45:08 AM »
Disavowing and condemning means jack shit, especially coming from him.  In fact, it likely just bolsters their numbers.  Those Nazis just giggle every time he condemns them in the same way the gun companies giggled every time Obama mentioned gun control.  Just the way ISIS giggles every time some politician thinks they are being tough by saying 'radical Islam".     

Remember when the Nazis were the butt of everyone's joke?  No one took them seriously because no one covered them.  However, that doesn't generate ratings or sell ad time so now we see them on TV because it SELLS.  The media is partially complicit here as well, and Trump understands this and uses it for his advantage.  It is a vicious cycle and a distraction from what Trump is really interested in doing, turning the country into an instrument that directly funnels money into his pocket.  The media will go along with it because it also benefits them as well. 

I still think people are fundamentally misunderstanding Trump at a basic level.  Nothing is very important to him except for it's usefulness to him.   Language, to him, isn't about promoting ideas or making promises, it is a tool to get him what he wants.  Asking if he means to hold himself to his word isn't the right question.  When he says something provocative or extreme, ask yourself, "What is he trying to accomplish?"  Distraction and outrage is just his tool to get you to look one way instead of another. 

Do you ever notice that he generally softens his stances when directly confronted with a question by an actual human being?  It isn't likely because he cares, it is more that once he realizes that something actually bothers someone, he changes tactics to become more persuasive to that person.  But he doesn't mean what he says this time either, because words are just tools to him, with no other deeper meaning to them. 

I have come to the realization that he isn't a racist or sexist in the way normal people think of racism or sexism because he simply doesn't care enough about other humans to hate anyone.  He will gladly hire a female (and has) or an African American, provided they are of use to him.  By the same token, he would hire a white supremacist or a misogynist if that benefited him in some way.   He simply doesn't care because he sees caring about that sort of thing as a waste of his energy and a potential waste of resources.   

The dangerous part is that by the same token, he is happy to use other people's racism and sexism if it provides an advantage, and this is part of the reason why he won the presidency.  What he doesn't really understand, and in my view, is incapable of understanding, is the complexity of running a country is not the same as running a business or selling something.  He has been able to run the particular type of business he has (which is really self promotion) with these sales and marketing tactics that skew to his particular strengths.  Running a country is a whole other matter and in the past has benefited from the perception of the US as a moral center.  Trump smashes that into smithereens. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #170 on: November 23, 2016, 08:06:41 AM »
So if he supports them he is evil and the next hitler?  If he condemns them he is evil and the next hitler?  Any action he takes and anything he says automatically translates into him being evil incarnate.  What is the point of even having a discussion when everyone's already made up their mind and can't be swayed by anything?  These are rhetorical questions, I don't need responses.

I'm certainly no fan of trump but the cognitive dissonance being generated since the election is amazing.  Not only here, but nationwide and with several people in my real life. I wish I never posted in any of the political threads here, and also with I could unsubscribe without going back and deleting all my posts.  I wish I could unsubscribe from everything political in real life as well. I read up on the issues before the election, and voted for everything I believed in, and don't want to be involved any further with any of it. I wish I could just leave politics behind in general and focus on my own small circle of control, because at this point it's completely out of my hands.  If I see someone committing a hate crime, or perpetuating hatred/racism/etc I will speak up and try to do my best to ensure everyone is treated equally and justly, but I'm not seeing anything like that in my personal life.  I want to go back to seeing joke threads pop up in my unread topics instead of political threads.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #171 on: November 23, 2016, 08:15:45 AM »
So if he supports them he is evil and the next hitler?  If he condemns them he is evil and the next hitler?  Any action he takes and anything he says automatically translates into him being evil incarnate.  What is the point of even having a discussion when everyone's already made up their mind and can't be swayed by anything?  These are rhetorical questions, I don't need responses.

I'm certainly no fan of trump but the cognitive dissonance being generated since the election is amazing.  Not only here, but nationwide and with several people in my real life. I wish I never posted in any of the political threads here, and also with I could unsubscribe without going back and deleting all my posts.  I wish I could unsubscribe from everything political in real life as well. I read up on the issues before the election, and voted for everything I believed in, and don't want to be involved any further with any of it. I wish I could just leave politics behind in general and focus on my own small circle of control, because at this point it's completely out of my hands.  If I see someone committing a hate crime, or perpetuating hatred/racism/etc I will speak up and try to do my best to ensure everyone is treated equally and justly, but I'm not seeing anything like that in my personal life.  I want to go back to seeing joke threads pop up in my unread topics instead of political threads.

He has said publicly that he disavows the Nazis.  That's a step in the right direction.  For many who have heard his hate filled speeches and seen his appointment of people like Bannon to power it's not quite enough yet.

Gin1984

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #172 on: November 23, 2016, 08:16:51 AM »
So if he supports them he is evil and the next hitler?  If he condemns them he is evil and the next hitler?  Any action he takes and anything he says automatically translates into him being evil incarnate.  What is the point of even having a discussion when everyone's already made up their mind and can't be swayed by anything?  These are rhetorical questions, I don't need responses.

I'm certainly no fan of trump but the cognitive dissonance being generated since the election is amazing.  Not only here, but nationwide and with several people in my real life. I wish I never posted in any of the political threads here, and also with I could unsubscribe without going back and deleting all my posts.  I wish I could unsubscribe from everything political in real life as well. I read up on the issues before the election, and voted for everything I believed in, and don't want to be involved any further with any of it. I wish I could just leave politics behind in general and focus on my own small circle of control, because at this point it's completely out of my hands.  If I see someone committing a hate crime, or perpetuating hatred/racism/etc I will speak up and try to do my best to ensure everyone is treated equally and justly, but I'm not seeing anything like that in my personal life.  I want to go back to seeing joke threads pop up in my unread topics instead of political threads.
The problem is that he encouraged them and then only started a few one lines about not approving once people were directly asking him.  He is not attempting any consequences, he is elevating men that supported them.  So his words and his actions are different.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #173 on: November 23, 2016, 08:30:45 AM »
What are Trump and his supporters doing to avoid emboldening bigots in the future?

We respect their rights to have their own opinions in accordance with the law, remind them politely of the limits of legally tolerated behavior, and do what any gentleman is trained to do when confronted with rudeness, pretend it never happened, because it shouldn't have.

If they cross the line into actual crime, they are held accountable, within the limits of the legal system.

That's the same principle that lets someone under investigation by the FBI for mishandling classified information run for president as the only "qualified" individual.  It's also the same principle that lets someone who viciously attacked and attempted to suppress the stories of women assaulted by her husband somehow be the candidate who supports women's rights to not be groped.  It's the same principle that lets, again, the "qualified" candidate list secretary of state as something that entitles her to the office despite being a horrible secretary of state.  Time was you had to be good at your previous job to list it as a qualification.  These aren't just boxes we check folks, performance matters.

The "he supports white supremacists" attack is disgusting and you should be ashamed.  The whole story there is that he was asked a question by a reporter who absolutely thought he was an idiot and a racist.  The reporter didn't ask, "are you glad you were just endorsed by this asshole, former leader of the KKK?"  The reporter asked about the person by name with no context, and Trump said he didn't know who they were.  And then the very next day, upon asking his people "who the fuck is this guy?" He condemned the group.  I don't know who he is?  I don't give a fuck about the KKK, nobody does.  It is an irrelevant group of domestic terrorists.  Out of all former leaders of terrorist organizations, that's the last one Trump should've known by name.  I assume the FBI is watching them and that when they start doing crime they'll be caught and punished.  It was a disgusting question derived from the absolute basest level of politicking and you fucking know better.  The KKK is often going to endorse the GOP candidate, because they're a bunch of assholes, and because if you have a message that isn't racist that will sound like it is pro-white people in contrast to the Democrats every time.

What's so infuriating about that particular moment, is that usually what the leftist media asks in those situations is about a particular foreign dignitary.  So that should have been a question about some South American leader, so Trump could have no idea who he was, and then we get a story about how he's ignorant of foreign affairs.  That's the standard line of attack on one of the few legitimate responsibilities of the executive.  You should have to be an expert on every foreign relationship, in detail, to run.  It is an incredibly effective attack, and HRC had a years-long education in those topics so she could've spoken about it very well.  That's not what we got though, because it was more important to the left to clarify that he was racist, than that he was unqualified.

Evaluating the Trump voter in the absence of considerations along the lines of the lack of a viable Democratic alternative are why you're feeling so scared and isolated.  Nobody wanted either of these people to be president, that's what you are missing.  There isn't some legion of enthusiastic Trump voters.  There's 120 million voters out there who went to the polls and said "well shit."

Plus the, whatever the official number is now, eight million maybe, Democratic voters who just didn't show up at all.

If Trump is as bad as you say, don't worry, I'll dust off my guns and join you in defending your freedom, no worries.

"Trump may use Obama's proposed fact checking law to silence the media."

Exactly.  Stop fucking giving power and money to the government, you don't know who will be in power next.  This election outcome should be a master class for liberals in why you don't let the government do whatever the fuck it wants.  Before you pass a law, imagine the person you hate most in the world will be the one to enforce it.

"Trump may accidentally get us into a war, which is terrifying."  Yup.  Not as terrifying as HRC who was definitely going to get us into a war on purpose.  Hypocrisy at its finest right there with that concern.

Bigger concern #4 from Mr. Wenchsenior is not unique to the Trump presidency.  That's what happens whenever you put the federal government in control of something they've got no business doing.  They can't influence nationwide educational policy if you stand up and tell them to cut that shit out the first time they try it.  But you didn't mind what they were saying at the time so you ignored that it wasn't something that should be done.  You called the people trying to point out that the idea of the federal government doing that is appalling racists, because of the specific idea the government was espousing.  Buckle in and enjoy the ride.  Powerful governments are scary.  Small government conservatives still sound batshit crazy?  Of course, because partisanship.

The actual policy the government is putting in place matters far less than the precedent of the government being able to have a policy on that at all.  You're worried about a Trump presidency?  Fucking Good.  You should be.  Be terrified of it.  Insist on strict limits to executive power enforced by the Congress and the Supreme Court.  Give Congress back the certainty that even if they don't support a bill, they should vote to override a veto on principle.  Not supporting the legislation initially is a separate issue from not supporting the president's thwarting of the will of the people.

Don't follow your party blindly down a path that is wrong.

Laws should be the control of last resort, the solution of last resort.  The Progressive Agenda should be about eliminating laws, not passing new ones.  You don't legalize gay marriage, you eliminate any recognition of marriage at all.  It has no place in law, it is not reconcilable with the separation of church and state.  It is nobody's business if I am married or not, and both sides not recognizing that these laws give favor and bonuses to certain groups in violation of constitutional principles is hypocrisy.

Set up inheritance laws the same way insurance is set up.  Default it to progeny in the absence of express wishes.  My Social Security Insurance benefit goes to nobody if I die because I'm unmarried.    So because I'm against gay marriage I'm a bigot, nevermind that I'm against straight marriage too.  I don't care who you fuck, I do care that I'm paying a massive tax and if I get hit by a truck I can't leave the benefit I earned to loved ones, because the only family recognized in law is that condoned by the church.  Ridiculous.

The disharmony you feel is because the Democratic platform is not progressive, it is "anti-status-quo I want mine same as they got theirs".  And because it is frequently arguing from a position of take-all-we-can instead of stop-raping-us the moral outrage you try to bring to the argument is just bleating whinging of special snowflakes.

What will you sacrifice to make the world better?  Nothing?  Won't even show up to vote? How convenient.  But "I'm afraid" and "now people think it's OK to be sexist."  No they don't, you dramatist hypocrites.  The POTUS doesn't matter.  Your life isn't any different now than it was three weeks ago.  Nobody killed your dog and stole your car.

These reactions are from anxiety, go get medication.  Beyond that, grow up.  Once you are actually harmed, then speak up.  Right now, what you are doing?  This is crying wolf.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #174 on: November 23, 2016, 08:49:38 AM »

He has said publicly that he disavows the Nazis.  That's a step in the right direction.  For many who have heard his hate filled speeches and seen his appointment of people like Bannon to power it's not quite enough yet.

Agree. I think most everybody is just sick of hearing how Trump has done X, or not done Y, when clearly he has done Y and never quite really did X, even though the bubble/echo chamber says otherwise.

Admitting that these are true when proof is shown, and still disagreeing with him, is perfectly acceptable.

golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #175 on: November 23, 2016, 08:56:35 AM »
Quote
If Trump is as bad as you say, don't worry, I'll dust off my guns and join you in defending your freedom, no worries.

Based on the information sources you use to make judgements about things as based on your criticisms of HRC, I don't believe you.  You will rationalize whatever you need to in order to avoid picking up that gun.  You will transform the world into what you want it to be rather than fight for the rights of others you refuse to empathize with.

Quote
Before you pass a law, imagine the person you hate most in the world will be the one to enforce it.

SO stupid.  If we are that risk averse as a country, we will never get anything done. 

Quote
These reactions are from anxiety, go get medication.  Beyond that, grow up.  Once you are actually harmed, then speak up.  Right now, what you are doing?  This is crying wolf.

People are speaking up.  You just aren't exposing yourself to the stories because they aren't what you want to hear.  I read them every single day. 

Words matter and can do actual harm.  Trump understands that more than anyone. 

ncornilsen

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #176 on: November 23, 2016, 08:58:46 AM »
What are Trump and his supporters doing to avoid emboldening bigots in the future?

We respect their rights to have their own opinions in accordance with the law, remind them politely of the limits of legally tolerated behavior, and do what any gentleman is trained to do when confronted with rudeness, pretend it never happened, because it shouldn't have.

If they cross the line into actual crime, they are held accountable, within the limits of the legal system.

That's the same principle that lets someone under investigation by the FBI for mishandling classified information run for president as the only "qualified" individual.  It's also the same principle that lets someone who viciously attacked and attempted to suppress the stories of women assaulted by her husband somehow be the candidate who supports women's rights to not be groped.  It's the same principle that lets, again, the "qualified" candidate list secretary of state as something that entitles her to the office despite being a horrible secretary of state.  Time was you had to be good at your previous job to list it as a qualification.  These aren't just boxes we check folks, performance matters.

The "he supports white supremacists" attack is disgusting and you should be ashamed.  The whole story there is that he was asked a question by a reporter who absolutely thought he was an idiot and a racist.  The reporter didn't ask, "are you glad you were just endorsed by this asshole, former leader of the KKK?"  The reporter asked about the person by name with no context, and Trump said he didn't know who they were.  And then the very next day, upon asking his people "who the fuck is this guy?" He condemned the group.  I don't know who he is?  I don't give a fuck about the KKK, nobody does.  It is an irrelevant group of domestic terrorists.  Out of all former leaders of terrorist organizations, that's the last one Trump should've known by name.  I assume the FBI is watching them and that when they start doing crime they'll be caught and punished.  It was a disgusting question derived from the absolute basest level of politicking and you fucking know better.  The KKK is often going to endorse the GOP candidate, because they're a bunch of assholes, and because if you have a message that isn't racist that will sound like it is pro-white people in contrast to the Democrats every time.

What's so infuriating about that particular moment, is that usually what the leftist media asks in those situations is about a particular foreign dignitary.  So that should have been a question about some South American leader, so Trump could have no idea who he was, and then we get a story about how he's ignorant of foreign affairs.  That's the standard line of attack on one of the few legitimate responsibilities of the executive.  You should have to be an expert on every foreign relationship, in detail, to run.  It is an incredibly effective attack, and HRC had a years-long education in those topics so she could've spoken about it very well.  That's not what we got though, because it was more important to the left to clarify that he was racist, than that he was unqualified.

Evaluating the Trump voter in the absence of considerations along the lines of the lack of a viable Democratic alternative are why you're feeling so scared and isolated.  Nobody wanted either of these people to be president, that's what you are missing.  There isn't some legion of enthusiastic Trump voters.  There's 120 million voters out there who went to the polls and said "well shit."

Plus the, whatever the official number is now, eight million maybe, Democratic voters who just didn't show up at all.

If Trump is as bad as you say, don't worry, I'll dust off my guns and join you in defending your freedom, no worries.

"Trump may use Obama's proposed fact checking law to silence the media."

Exactly.  Stop fucking giving power and money to the government, you don't know who will be in power next.  This election outcome should be a master class for liberals in why you don't let the government do whatever the fuck it wants.  Before you pass a law, imagine the person you hate most in the world will be the one to enforce it.

"Trump may accidentally get us into a war, which is terrifying."  Yup.  Not as terrifying as HRC who was definitely going to get us into a war on purpose.  Hypocrisy at its finest right there with that concern.

Bigger concern #4 from Mr. Wenchsenior is not unique to the Trump presidency.  That's what happens whenever you put the federal government in control of something they've got no business doing.  They can't influence nationwide educational policy if you stand up and tell them to cut that shit out the first time they try it.  But you didn't mind what they were saying at the time so you ignored that it wasn't something that should be done.  You called the people trying to point out that the idea of the federal government doing that is appalling racists, because of the specific idea the government was espousing.  Buckle in and enjoy the ride.  Powerful governments are scary.  Small government conservatives still sound batshit crazy?  Of course, because partisanship.

The actual policy the government is putting in place matters far less than the precedent of the government being able to have a policy on that at all.  You're worried about a Trump presidency?  Fucking Good.  You should be.  Be terrified of it.  Insist on strict limits to executive power enforced by the Congress and the Supreme Court.  Give Congress back the certainty that even if they don't support a bill, they should vote to override a veto on principle.  Not supporting the legislation initially is a separate issue from not supporting the president's thwarting of the will of the people.

Don't follow your party blindly down a path that is wrong.

Laws should be the control of last resort, the solution of last resort.  The Progressive Agenda should be about eliminating laws, not passing new ones.  You don't legalize gay marriage, you eliminate any recognition of marriage at all.  It has no place in law, it is not reconcilable with the separation of church and state.  It is nobody's business if I am married or not, and both sides not recognizing that these laws give favor and bonuses to certain groups in violation of constitutional principles is hypocrisy.

Set up inheritance laws the same way insurance is set up.  Default it to progeny in the absence of express wishes.  My Social Security Insurance benefit goes to nobody if I die because I'm unmarried.    So because I'm against gay marriage I'm a bigot, nevermind that I'm against straight marriage too.  I don't care who you fuck, I do care that I'm paying a massive tax and if I get hit by a truck I can't leave the benefit I earned to loved ones, because the only family recognized in law is that condoned by the church.  Ridiculous.

The disharmony you feel is because the Democratic platform is not progressive, it is "anti-status-quo I want mine same as they got theirs".  And because it is frequently arguing from a position of take-all-we-can instead of stop-raping-us the moral outrage you try to bring to the argument is just bleating whinging of special snowflakes.

What will you sacrifice to make the world better?  Nothing?  Won't even show up to vote? How convenient.  But "I'm afraid" and "now people think it's OK to be sexist."  No they don't, you dramatist hypocrites.  The POTUS doesn't matter.  Your life isn't any different now than it was three weeks ago.  Nobody killed your dog and stole your car.

These reactions are from anxiety, go get medication.  Beyond that, grow up.  Once you are actually harmed, then speak up.  Right now, what you are doing?  This is crying wolf.

Well said. Trump, if nothing else, will teach a whole new generation why we should be suspicious and limiting of centralized, federal power.

MandalayVA

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #177 on: November 23, 2016, 09:05:13 AM »
Now that Trump's sat down with the New York Times and pretty much backpedaled on everything (AS I CORRECTLY PREDICTED HE'D DO), I have to admit that I'm enjoying the left finally realizing that he's a huge bullshit artist who will do and say anything to get people to like him. 

I'm not concerned about Donald Trump.  I am IMMENSELY concerned about Mike Pence.  You know, the guy who will be actually running the country for the next four years.


wienerdog

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #178 on: November 23, 2016, 09:12:24 AM »
The disharmony you feel is because the Democratic platform is not progressive, it is "anti-status-quo I want mine same as they got theirs".  And because it is frequently arguing from a position of take-all-we-can instead of stop-raping-us the moral outrage you try to bring to the argument is just bleating whinging of special snowflakes.

What will you sacrifice to make the world better?  Nothing?  Won't even show up to vote? How convenient.  But "I'm afraid" and "now people think it's OK to be sexist."  No they don't, you dramatist hypocrites.  The POTUS doesn't matter.  Your life isn't any different now than it was three weeks ago.  Nobody killed your dog and stole your car.

These reactions are from anxiety, go get medication.  Beyond that, grow up.  Once you are actually harmed, then speak up.  Right now, what you are doing?  This is crying wolf.

Well put.  I said from day one there was no difference between the two.  You weren't afraid of Trump 8 years ago when he was on the Apprentice.  What you truly are afraid of now is his power not Trump himself.

"We are far too quick to relinquish our freedoms and our liberties on the promise that our benevolent leaders will crush our opposition, but every power used to control our political and social enemies can also be used to control us."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92y193ATrNw

The power is what you're afraid of.  Wake up and smell the coffee as either side is the same maybe a little different views but no different when it comes to liberty.  Until you realize that you will just be spinning your wheels. 


golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #179 on: November 23, 2016, 09:29:09 AM »
Quote
You weren't afraid of Trump 8 years ago when he was on the Apprentice.  What you truly are afraid of now is his power not Trump himself.

What a dumb argument you guys keep making.  If you bring it to it's logical conclusion, then we should never allow anyone to have any power for fear that they might abuse it.  At that point, society pretty much breaks down.  The whole idea of our government is that we take the RESPONSIBILITY of our RIGHT to vote seriously, and give that power to someone who is worthy of it.  Don't be afraid of bestowing power, treat it like the important responsibility that it is.

Of course I wasn't afraid of Trump when he was a TV star with no real political ambitions.  I am not afraid of other people who have crazy opinions who have no decision making power over my life.  This guy does, and not only that, the president is generally expected to act as a role model.  So his words MATTER because they affect our culture.  So his words will have impacts across generations. 

ncornilsen

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #180 on: November 23, 2016, 09:50:01 AM »
Quote
You weren't afraid of Trump 8 years ago when he was on the Apprentice.  What you truly are afraid of now is his power not Trump himself.

What a dumb argument you guys keep making.  If you bring it to it's logical conclusion, then we should never allow anyone to have any power for fear that they might abuse it.  At that point, society pretty much breaks down.  The whole idea of our government is that we take the RESPONSIBILITY of our RIGHT to vote seriously, and give that power to someone who is worthy of it.  Don't be afraid of bestowing power, treat it like the important responsibility that it is.

Of course I wasn't afraid of Trump when he was a TV star with no real political ambitions.  I am not afraid of other people who have crazy opinions who have no decision making power over my life.  This guy does, and not only that, the president is generally expected to act as a role model.  So his words MATTER because they affect our culture.  So his words will have impacts across generations.

That's not the logical conclusion. The logical conclusion is keep power distributed as close to the populous as possible, and minimize single-points-of-failure by not concentrating too much of it in the executive branch.


mm1970

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #181 on: November 23, 2016, 10:12:29 AM »

Also, it's not just a few liberals who are having trouble sleeping. This is not normal outrage at an election that didn't go our way, this is genuine fear for the future and what this means about some of our fellow countrymen/women.


Raising my hand as privileged white woman who is having trouble sleeping and experiencing nightmares due to the election results.

I mean, I wasn't happy when Bush was reelected but I kind of laughed at my college roommate who spent the morning after the election curled into a fetal position on the floor.  I was thinking "come on, it's not that bad".  Now that's me and  this time I'm afraid it really is that bad.  Though I hope I'm wrong.  I hope he's a kick ass president and we all laugh at ourselves in a few years.

+1

shenlong55

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #182 on: November 23, 2016, 10:17:03 AM »
What are Trump and his supporters doing to avoid emboldening bigots in the future?

We respect their rights to have their own opinions in accordance with the law, remind them politely of the limits of legally tolerated behavior, and do what any gentleman is trained to do when confronted with rudeness, pretend it never happened, because it shouldn't have.

If they cross the line into actual crime, they are held accountable, within the limits of the legal system.

First, I hope you didn't waste too much time on this reply, since most of it is responding to some agenda that you seem to be assuming I have.

I didn't ask what your doing to confront racism in your personal life, I asked what your doing to avoid emboldening bigots in the future.  Whether Trump intended to or not, some of his words/actions made bigots think that his election was a win for them, that America was endorsing their point of view.  What will he do differently in the future to avoid that outcome?  What will you, as a Trump supporter, do differently in the future to avoid that outcome?

I'm accepting my responsibility in not pushing harder to make the democratic party more populist sooner.  I voted for Bernie in the primary, but I'm sure there's more I could have done and I plan to do such in the future.  All I'm asking that you make a similar acknowledgment.

That's the same principle that lets someone under investigation by the FBI for mishandling classified information run for president as the only "qualified" individual.  It's also the same principle that lets someone who viciously attacked and attempted to suppress the stories of women assaulted by her husband somehow be the candidate who supports women's rights to not be groped.  It's the same principle that lets, again, the "qualified" candidate list secretary of state as something that entitles her to the office despite being a horrible secretary of state.  Time was you had to be good at your previous job to list it as a qualification.  These aren't just boxes we check folks, performance matters.

I'm no longer interested in debunking this misinformation.  You wouldn't listen if I did, but for anyone else reading this I implore you to do your own research and actually understand the issues before you make a judgement.

The "he supports white supremacists" attack is disgusting and you should be ashamed.  The whole story there is that he was asked a question by a reporter who absolutely thought he was an idiot and a racist.  The reporter didn't ask, "are you glad you were just endorsed by this asshole, former leader of the KKK?"  The reporter asked about the person by name with no context, and Trump said he didn't know who they were.  And then the very next day, upon asking his people "who the fuck is this guy?" He condemned the group.  I don't know who he is?  I don't give a fuck about the KKK, nobody does.  It is an irrelevant group of domestic terrorists.  Out of all former leaders of terrorist organizations, that's the last one Trump should've known by name.  I assume the FBI is watching them and that when they start doing crime they'll be caught and punished.  It was a disgusting question derived from the absolute basest level of politicking and you fucking know better.  The KKK is often going to endorse the GOP candidate, because they're a bunch of assholes, and because if you have a message that isn't racist that will sound like it is pro-white people in contrast to the Democrats every time.

I never said that "he supports white supremacists".  I said bigots were emboldened by his election.  Whether it was Trumps intention or not, it still happened.  You can tell when they say things like "Hail Trump!"

What's so infuriating about that particular moment, is that usually what the leftist media asks in those situations is about a particular foreign dignitary.  So that should have been a question about some South American leader, so Trump could have no idea who he was, and then we get a story about how he's ignorant of foreign affairs.  That's the standard line of attack on one of the few legitimate responsibilities of the executive.  You should have to be an expert on every foreign relationship, in detail, to run.  It is an incredibly effective attack, and HRC had a years-long education in those topics so she could've spoken about it very well.  That's not what we got though, because it was more important to the left to clarify that he was racist, than that he was unqualified.

Evaluating the Trump voter in the absence of considerations along the lines of the lack of a viable Democratic alternative are why you're feeling so scared and isolated.  Nobody wanted either of these people to be president, that's what you are missing.  There isn't some legion of enthusiastic Trump voters.  There's 120 million voters out there who went to the polls and said "well shit."

Plus the, whatever the official number is now, eight million maybe, Democratic voters who just didn't show up at all.

I agree that that the media/HRC campaign/democrats shares some responsibility.  I think a lot of people were complacent because they thought the whole bigotry thing would be more of a dis-qualifier than it was.  I think some democrats failed to take into account the perception of Hillary (whether true or not) even among our own base, leading to lower turnout.  The fact that others are partially responsible as well does not absolve us of our responsibility.

If Trump is as bad as you say, don't worry, I'll dust off my guns and join you in defending your freedom, no worries.

"Trump may use Obama's proposed fact checking law to silence the media."

Exactly.  Stop fucking giving power and money to the government, you don't know who will be in power next.  This election outcome should be a master class for liberals in why you don't let the government do whatever the fuck it wants.  Before you pass a law, imagine the person you hate most in the world will be the one to enforce it.

No.  You stop voting bad people into power.  Arguing that the government is inept/evil is not a valid argument when you vote to put inept/evil people into the government.  To be clear, I'm not saying that any particular person is inept/evil here.  But if you're saying the government is inept/evil then it's because we've voted inept/evil people into government, not because government is intrinsically inept/evil.

"Trump may accidentally get us into a war, which is terrifying."  Yup.  Not as terrifying as HRC who was definitely going to get us into a war on purpose.  Hypocrisy at its finest right there with that concern.

Bigger concern #4 from Mr. Wenchsenior is not unique to the Trump presidency.  That's what happens whenever you put the federal government in control of something they've got no business doing.  They can't influence nationwide educational policy if you stand up and tell them to cut that shit out the first time they try it.  But you didn't mind what they were saying at the time so you ignored that it wasn't something that should be done.  You called the people trying to point out that the idea of the federal government doing that is appalling racists, because of the specific idea the government was espousing.  Buckle in and enjoy the ride.  Powerful governments are scary.  Small government conservatives still sound batshit crazy?  Of course, because partisanship.

The actual policy the government is putting in place matters far less than the precedent of the government being able to have a policy on that at all.  You're worried about a Trump presidency?  Fucking Good.  You should be.  Be terrified of it.  Insist on strict limits to executive power enforced by the Congress and the Supreme Court.  Give Congress back the certainty that even if they don't support a bill, they should vote to override a veto on principle.  Not supporting the legislation initially is a separate issue from not supporting the president's thwarting of the will of the people.

Don't follow your party blindly down a path that is wrong.

Laws should be the control of last resort, the solution of last resort.  The Progressive Agenda should be about eliminating laws, not passing new ones.  You don't legalize gay marriage, you eliminate any recognition of marriage at all.  It has no place in law, it is not reconcilable with the separation of church and state.  It is nobody's business if I am married or not, and both sides not recognizing that these laws give favor and bonuses to certain groups in violation of constitutional principles is hypocrisy.

Set up inheritance laws the same way insurance is set up.  Default it to progeny in the absence of express wishes.  My Social Security Insurance benefit goes to nobody if I die because I'm unmarried.    So because I'm against gay marriage I'm a bigot, nevermind that I'm against straight marriage too.  I don't care who you fuck, I do care that I'm paying a massive tax and if I get hit by a truck I can't leave the benefit I earned to loved ones, because the only family recognized in law is that condoned by the church.  Ridiculous.

I'd be perfectly fine with changing the name of marriage to civil union or something if your really just hung up on the name and I would definitely advocate making it easier for you to pass your benefits on however you choose.  But there are reasons that we give benefits to married couples.  Either look into those reasons and dispute them or quite complaining.

Oh, and because it seems to be a big issue right now I want to make clear that I did not call you a bigot and I don't believe you are a bigot.

LadyStache in Baja

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #183 on: November 23, 2016, 10:58:38 AM »
oldest youngest man, I see what you're saying about limiting executive power, and how Trump as president is a great example of the benefits of small government.

Currently, I think the biggest thing screwing us over is billionaires like the Koch Brothers funding groups that deliberately misinform us.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/trump-adviser-received-salary-from-charity-while-steering-breitbart-news/2016/11/22/75340778-af8a-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html?tid=sm_fb ("Bannon received salary from charity while steering Breitbart News"). 

Tied with that for biggest problem is big companies lobbying the government to be able to pollute and destroy our commons. 

What can we do about that?

golden1

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #184 on: November 23, 2016, 11:05:14 AM »
Quote
That's not the logical conclusion. The logical conclusion is keep power distributed as close to the populous as possible, and minimize single-points-of-failure by not concentrating too much of it in the executive branch.

I agree, but part of the strategy of the Republican congress was to obstruct the normal, more diffuse, functions of the federal government, therefore forcing Obama's hand.  He could either go down in history as being completely ineffectual, or use executive actions to do what he could.  He chose the latter most likely because he wanted government to work.  The GOP wants government to fail, so it's a self-fulfilled prophecy.   Until they are in power, and now the government will be "great again".  :P 

I would love a less concentrated government.  I don't see that happening under a Trump administration though, quite the opposite. 

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #185 on: November 23, 2016, 12:00:36 PM »

Based on the information sources you use to make judgements about things as based on your criticisms of HRC, I don't believe you.  You will rationalize whatever you need to in order to avoid picking up that gun.  You will transform the world into what you want it to be rather than fight for the rights of others you refuse to empathize with.

OK, so this is an important thing for you to recognize about yourself.  There are legitimate criticisms of HRC.  You get that right?  As there will be with any candidate.  Dismissing those concerns offhandedly because you don't like their source, despite the fact that my source is the associated press, it's CNN, it's VOX.  Instead of defending the candidate, good with the bad, Democrats went with, and the irony here is just staggering, "we have the best candidate, the very best, great qualifications, super qualified.  So much legislation she's passed, just the best.  Also foreign experience, she knows lots of leaders, lots of people.  Those bad things people are saying, you know, sometimes people just say bad things about you, and that's OK, that's OK folks."

The Democratic primary was the only place where actual policy got discussed.  The Democrats decided in the general they didn't need to talk about actual policy beyond vague counters to Trump's campaign "they don't have a plan, we have a plan."  Well, where's the details?  Who is paying for it?  What constitutional authority gives the government the right to do any of this?  It was more important to BEAT the other side than it was to win, and so both sides looked terrible.

I don't like HRC so I'm not worth listening to?  I just don't understand this.  Before this election, I had some great conversations on this board where I learned a ton about all sorts of different issues
Quote
Before you pass a law, imagine the person you hate most in the world will be the one to enforce it.
SO stupid.  If we are that risk averse as a country, we will never get anything done. 
It isn't about never getting anything done, it is about respecting the rule of law and giving due consideration to what will happen if the law you are passing gets abused.  This is called good governance, it is called responsible governance, it isn't about being risk averse, it is about acknowledging the basic risks inherent in lawmaking.  Not doing this is irresponsible.

Quote
These reactions are from anxiety, go get medication.  Beyond that, grow up.  Once you are actually harmed, then speak up.  Right now, what you are doing?  This is crying wolf.
People are speaking up.  You just aren't exposing yourself to the stories because they aren't what you want to hear.  I read them every single day. 

Words matter and can do actual harm.  Trump understands that more than anyone.
I am exposing myself to it, and I am calling bullshit.  Words don't cause harm if the damage done is you self-harmed because of an irrational reaction to the words.  Your self-harm because a loss of perspective that is entirely your fault caused the harm.  An asshole says something stupid, you tell him to fuck off and you keep doing the right thing.  Witness the UK response to Trump's input on their ambassador to the US.  Witness how the UK didn't react as though Trump was destroying the foundation of western civilization because he's an idiot, they just made fun of him and moved on.


Northwestie

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #186 on: November 23, 2016, 12:42:43 PM »
Witness how the UK didn't react as though Trump was destroying the foundation of western civilization because he's an idiot, they just made fun of him and moved on.

Unfortunately he'll have a bit more sway on things on this side of the pond.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #187 on: November 23, 2016, 12:43:04 PM »

First, I hope you didn't waste too much time on this reply, since most of it is responding to some agenda that you seem to be assuming I have.


I didn't, and I liked what you had to say.  I just wanted to point out the inherent bias that's in there, which I think you picked up on.  My apologies to everyone if my commentary is coming out sounding harsh, it just feels like an opportunity for people to re-evaluate how they acted during their time in power that is being completely missed.

The whole sentiment "just elect good people" is so troubling, because look, you just failed to do it.  We all elected Trump, not just those who voted for him.  If you believe he will be a bad president, arguing that it was right to make the government more powerful simply is not compatible with that belief.  Regardless of the circumstances where you thought it was OK.  There is no good argument for a powerful federal government beyond national defense.  You want everything as local as possible.

Your plan failed.  It will fail again.  History shows us time and time again that powerful governments eventually subjugate their people.  It hasn't happened in America yet?  If you were forced to buy health insurance you didn't need, that's a sort of low grade subjugation.  That you didn't think it was, well, how about just respecting the opinion of the 40% of the country that begged you not to do it.

I think it would be great if the nation had a dress code of being naked all the time.  No clothes for anyone.  I'd think we'd be more honest, have more money, and have a lot more fun.  But I respect the choice of those around me to wear clothes so much that I myself am wearing clothes as I type this.

At a fundamental level, the Democratic party has gone from being the party of "stop telling me I can't do this" to being the party of "make these other people do this."

And so the arguments aren't absolutely right.  As to the last bit on the reasons we give benefits to married couples, that's quite a bit of arrogance to assume I don't know about the issue.  It's possible I have given it a great deal of thought and consideration, and read everything I can get my hands on, and still decided that the core problem is that marriage and interpersonal relationships are recognized by the state at all.  I get it, it's a benefit you either enjoy or want to enjoy, but it isn't a benefit that stems from something the government SHOULD be doing.  I get that they can (because clearly they are) but it is wrong to treat citizens differently based on their marital status.  The reasons for doing it are based on pseudo-science promoted for centuries based on Judeo Christian values that I myself hold.  And as a Christian I am 100% pro marriage.  But as a citizen I recognize that the law being involved in marriage has done nobody any good long term.  We don't need to encourage something that is sanctified by God.  We also don't need to incentivize something like marriage, that is a perversion of what ought to be a holy sacrament.

And so given that, from a blank slate perspective, I can agree with the Democrats that the current laws around heterosexual marriage are prejudicial and wrong, an assault on basic human rights, I just arrive at a different conclusion.  The obvious solution isn't to revamp the whole thing to accept non-traditional relationships, its to move government beyond high school gossip.  It shouldn't matter if I'm married or not.  It should be impossible for the law to interfere in my marriage one way or the other.  Arrest me for beating my wife?  Absolutely, the crime being battery on another human.  It is irrelevant what common property arrangement we've arrived at.

But bring that argument to the table and you're dismissed as a crack pot who doesn't understand the issue.  Because it turns out treating everyone equally under the law wasn't what it was about.  It was about "I'm going to get mine."

Hypocrisy run rampant.

And so get down off that high horse.  Neither party is doing anything besides looking out for corporate interests and giving away whatever they can to shore up their constituencies.  And in an election with the least electable, worst candidates I've ever personally seen, 120 million people still couldn't bring themselves to vote for a third party.  "Because then we'd be wasting our vote."

oldest youngest man, I see what you're saying about limiting executive power, and how Trump as president is a great example of the benefits of small government.

Currently, I think the biggest thing screwing us over is billionaires like the Koch Brothers funding groups that deliberately misinform us.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/trump-adviser-received-salary-from-charity-while-steering-breitbart-news/2016/11/22/75340778-af8a-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html?tid=sm_fb ("Bannon received salary from charity while steering Breitbart News"). 

Tied with that for biggest problem is big companies lobbying the government to be able to pollute and destroy our commons. 

What can we do about that?


Well, this problem has been held up by Democrats as a huge problem for at least the last 18 years.  I think at this point I am prepared to call it bullshit.

Democrats outspent the Republicans in staggering amounts this election.  So if this is a problem, at the moment it's Democrats that are being corrupted by it.  If this was the problem, we should see a huge backlash now with Republican lawmakers ruthlessly cracking down on the corporations that gave money to their opponents.  We won't see that though, because it's overblown.

The problem I think is the access that money gets you.  As one example, a comprehensive overhaul of the social safety net in favor of an idea like basic income is probably 9 generations away, which is a real shame.  There's no easy way to bring that to the government.  You and I could love it, but there isn't a General Electric that has a stake in it happening.  They aren't against it, they just don't care.

Similarly with an energy revolution.  Elon Musk can go invent the technology, but unless he's got a company and is actively seeking out capital and building infrastructure, he doesn't have any meat to influence Congress, while his entrenched competitors do, and so they can keep him from selling cars in all markets and shut down sensible grid policies that would adequately compensate battery station owners.  So he has to go fight this uphill battle the whole way.  And so that's what you do.  You make the right choice, and damn the consequences.

The way to deal with this is to realize that no national political party will ever represent your issues.  Go meet your congressman, or at least read their position.  Write them a letter asking them to represent what you want.   Receive back a form letter that says "go fuck yourself."  And then vote against them next time around.  That's what you can do.  Forget worrying about what everyone else is doing, that's outside your control.  Without your input, that local representative has to rely on polls, and the polls are going to tell them some contradictory stuff, and they're going to grow contemptuous of the electorate, which we've seen.

But how many of us, in our heart of hearts, aren't going to that trouble?  I voted against my Republican Congressman.  He is an asshole.  I wrote him a letter about something very important to me, he responded with a form letter that was about the most patronizing piece of bullshit anyone ever put a stamp on, and then voted the coward's vote.  I voted for the Democrat for house, and he lost by a lot.  But I did my part.  If you show up and vote based on a party tag, you've willingly participated in the system that brought us where we are.  It's not someone else's fault.

It's yours.

The money in politics might be buying the politicians, but if you were worried about it, Trump wasn't able to raise much money at all, so his win is a victory against the special interests.  Trump asked them for money, they just figured he was going to lose and so they didn't pony up.  Also he's a dick and nobody gives money to assholes (firsthand experience).

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #188 on: November 23, 2016, 12:48:44 PM »
Witness how the UK didn't react as though Trump was destroying the foundation of western civilization because he's an idiot, they just made fun of him and moved on.

Unfortunately he'll have a bit more sway on things on this side of the pond.

It will be interesting to see.  Constitutionally the President can't do much.  Historically the president has been able to do a lot because he would order things done and people would obey.  But there's not really, as far as I know, a precedent like this, with a strong speaker who doesn't like the president, an essentially tied Senate where they can use maintaining the majority as an excuse to ignore any particular presidential policy, and where virtually all actual negotiations with foreign leaders are handled by senate-confirmed nominees.

I think the Supreme Court is one area, and I expect we'll end up with a conservative leaning court that will be inclined to only step in when really needed, instead of the ultra-activist progressive dream you may have been hoping for.

I think beyond that it is entirely possible Trump will be an honorary leader akin to the Queen of England.  We'll see though.

Helluva thing to be banking on incompetence, disinterest, and savvy of the opposition though innit.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #189 on: November 23, 2016, 01:32:40 PM »
Witness how the UK didn't react as though Trump was destroying the foundation of western civilization because he's an idiot, they just made fun of him and moved on.

Unfortunately he'll have a bit more sway on things on this side of the pond.

It will be interesting to see.  Constitutionally the President can't do much.  Historically the president has been able to do a lot because he would order things done and people would obey.  But there's not really, as far as I know, a precedent like this, with a strong speaker who doesn't like the president, an essentially tied Senate where they can use maintaining the majority as an excuse to ignore any particular presidential policy, and where virtually all actual negotiations with foreign leaders are handled by senate-confirmed nominees.

I think the Supreme Court is one area, and I expect we'll end up with a conservative leaning court that will be inclined to only step in when really needed, instead of the ultra-activist progressive dream you may have been hoping for.

I think beyond that it is entirely possible Trump will be an honorary leader akin to the Queen of England.  We'll see though.

Helluva thing to be banking on incompetence, disinterest, and savvy of the opposition though innit.

I personally prefer my supreme court conservative (in the 'slow to change' tense). Obama appointed two supreme court justices - The same as each of his two predecessors. How many would have made people happy?

Gin1984

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #190 on: November 23, 2016, 01:46:11 PM »
Witness how the UK didn't react as though Trump was destroying the foundation of western civilization because he's an idiot, they just made fun of him and moved on.

Unfortunately he'll have a bit more sway on things on this side of the pond.

It will be interesting to see.  Constitutionally the President can't do much.  Historically the president has been able to do a lot because he would order things done and people would obey.  But there's not really, as far as I know, a precedent like this, with a strong speaker who doesn't like the president, an essentially tied Senate where they can use maintaining the majority as an excuse to ignore any particular presidential policy, and where virtually all actual negotiations with foreign leaders are handled by senate-confirmed nominees.

I think the Supreme Court is one area, and I expect we'll end up with a conservative leaning court that will be inclined to only step in when really needed, instead of the ultra-activist progressive dream you may have been hoping for.

I think beyond that it is entirely possible Trump will be an honorary leader akin to the Queen of England.  We'll see though.

Helluva thing to be banking on incompetence, disinterest, and savvy of the opposition though innit.

I personally prefer my supreme court conservative (in the 'slow to change' tense). Obama appointed two supreme court justices - The same as each of his two predecessors. How many would have made people happy?
Honestly, enough that my rights were not in question when a new president is elected.  That would make me happy.

SisterX

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #191 on: November 23, 2016, 01:56:59 PM »

The whole sentiment "just elect good people" is so troubling, because look, you just failed to do it.  We all elected Trump, not just those who voted for him.  If you believe he will be a bad president, arguing that it was right to make the government more powerful simply is not compatible with that belief.  Regardless of the circumstances where you thought it was OK.  There is no good argument for a powerful federal government beyond national defense.  You want everything as local as possible.


Well, if we all felt that way then basically we'd be the EU, rather than the United States. There are, frankly, just some things that the federal government does better.
Before you get your panties in a twist and assume I'm saying something I'm not, I'm not against state's rights. There are plenty of things that states can do better than the feds simply because the country is so vast and so different. BUT, if we go too far toward your end of things it's not going to make the country any better. We have federal standards for many things because we want people to be able to have the same basic standard of living in Alabama as they do in California. It wouldn't be a very functional country if parts of it lived like New York and other areas were as functional as a third world country.
Like it or not, the federal government has a reason for existing beyond just the military. Sure, I think we need to pick and choose some of the power we give the feds much more strictly than we do. But I also don't think it's right if gay people can get married in one state and in another they'd have to live in fear of having the gay electrocuted out of them. (Per Mike Pence.) And no, this isn't about marriage as a right per se, but about the fact that a segment of the population would have curtailed freedoms in terms of where they can get jobs and live without fear. That would be a pretty fucked up country, to penalize segments of the population that way in clear violation of the separation of church and state. (Because if you take away religious reasons, there's no scientific reason to have laws against being gay.)

And so the arguments aren't absolutely right.  As to the last bit on the reasons we give benefits to married couples, that's quite a bit of arrogance to assume I don't know about the issue.  It's possible I have given it a great deal of thought and consideration, and read everything I can get my hands on, and still decided that the core problem is that marriage and interpersonal relationships are recognized by the state at all.  I get it, it's a benefit you either enjoy or want to enjoy, but it isn't a benefit that stems from something the government SHOULD be doing.  I get that they can (because clearly they are) but it is wrong to treat citizens differently based on their marital status.  The reasons for doing it are based on pseudo-science promoted for centuries based on Judeo Christian values that I myself hold.  And as a Christian I am 100% pro marriage.  But as a citizen I recognize that the law being involved in marriage has done nobody any good long term.  We don't need to encourage something that is sanctified by God.  We also don't need to incentivize something like marriage, that is a perversion of what ought to be a holy sacrament.

Here we have another difference of opinion. I'm not religious so I don't think of my marriage as a "holy sacrament". I think of it as a legal arrangement in which we both have protections for our property should we choose to un-marry. Now, I agree that some of the laws and whatnot surrounding divorce are terrible. But would I want to live in a land where getting divorced is essentially a free-for-all where one party can fuck up the other party with no legal repercussions because marriage isn't recognized by the state? Nope.
I also think of marriage as a social good. Having stable homes and relationships is good for society. It's not fringe science showing this, it's quite a large body of work. So yeah, I think that incentivizing it is a good thing.

Sorry, no time to respond to the rest, must catch the bus.

shenlong55

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #192 on: November 23, 2016, 01:58:23 PM »

First, I hope you didn't waste too much time on this reply, since most of it is responding to some agenda that you seem to be assuming I have.


I didn't, and I liked what you had to say.  I just wanted to point out the inherent bias that's in there, which I think you picked up on.  My apologies to everyone if my commentary is coming out sounding harsh, it just feels like an opportunity for people to re-evaluate how they acted during their time in power that is being completely missed.

The whole sentiment "just elect good people" is so troubling, because look, you just failed to do it.  We all elected Trump, not just those who voted for him.  If you believe he will be a bad president, arguing that it was right to make the government more powerful simply is not compatible with that belief.  Regardless of the circumstances where you thought it was OK.  There is no good argument for a powerful federal government beyond national defense.  You want everything as local as possible.

Your plan failed.  It will fail again.  History shows us time and time again that powerful governments eventually subjugate their people.  It hasn't happened in America yet?  If you were forced to buy health insurance you didn't need, that's a sort of low grade subjugation.  That you didn't think it was, well, how about just respecting the opinion of the 40% of the country that begged you not to do it.

I think it would be great if the nation had a dress code of being naked all the time.  No clothes for anyone.  I'd think we'd be more honest, have more money, and have a lot more fun.  But I respect the choice of those around me to wear clothes so much that I myself am wearing clothes as I type this.

At a fundamental level, the Democratic party has gone from being the party of "stop telling me I can't do this" to being the party of "make these other people do this."

And so the arguments aren't absolutely right.  As to the last bit on the reasons we give benefits to married couples, that's quite a bit of arrogance to assume I don't know about the issue.  It's possible I have given it a great deal of thought and consideration, and read everything I can get my hands on, and still decided that the core problem is that marriage and interpersonal relationships are recognized by the state at all.  I get it, it's a benefit you either enjoy or want to enjoy, but it isn't a benefit that stems from something the government SHOULD be doing.  I get that they can (because clearly they are) but it is wrong to treat citizens differently based on their marital status.  The reasons for doing it are based on pseudo-science promoted for centuries based on Judeo Christian values that I myself hold.  And as a Christian I am 100% pro marriage.  But as a citizen I recognize that the law being involved in marriage has done nobody any good long term.  We don't need to encourage something that is sanctified by God.  We also don't need to incentivize something like marriage, that is a perversion of what ought to be a holy sacrament.

And so given that, from a blank slate perspective, I can agree with the Democrats that the current laws around heterosexual marriage are prejudicial and wrong, an assault on basic human rights, I just arrive at a different conclusion.  The obvious solution isn't to revamp the whole thing to accept non-traditional relationships, its to move government beyond high school gossip.  It shouldn't matter if I'm married or not.  It should be impossible for the law to interfere in my marriage one way or the other.  Arrest me for beating my wife?  Absolutely, the crime being battery on another human.  It is irrelevant what common property arrangement we've arrived at.

But bring that argument to the table and you're dismissed as a crack pot who doesn't understand the issue.  Because it turns out treating everyone equally under the law wasn't what it was about.  It was about "I'm going to get mine."

Hypocrisy run rampant.

Just because we've elected bad people in the past does not mean that we're destined to do the same in the future.  If the problem is the people who are elected, then the proper solution is to find better people, not to handicap the system.  I do want things as local as possible though with a few exceptions, mostly having to do with economies of scale and wanting all humans to have a certain minimum standard of living regardless of whether they live in my state or not.  But I also recognize how connected the world is and would probably disagree with you about the correct level of many things.  In all honesty, I probably want a smaller government than most conservatives.  But I doubt they would ever support my ideas because giving away money with no strings attached is just a no-go to them.

As far as the marriage argument, I don't know if you know the reasons or not but you didn't argue against them in this thread.  Now that I think about it some more though I think I was actually thinking more about things like the child tax credit, which clearly has a purpose of incentivizing procreation, but also doesn't require marriage.  I guess I just don't really see that much benefit being given to married couples over single people.  Taxes are a little different, but in a way that seems to make sense.  It's easier to be sure that you're spouse will get your stuff and that they'll be able to get information on your status if something bad happens.  Personally, I would just keep a similar package of legal benefits/protections, name it something different so that there isn't a relationship to religion anymore and open it up to everyone.

And so get down off that high horse.  Neither party is doing anything besides looking out for corporate interests and giving away whatever they can to shore up their constituencies.  And in an election with the least electable, worst candidates I've ever personally seen, 120 million people still couldn't bring themselves to vote for a third party.  "Because then we'd be wasting our vote."

Or because the third party candidates were not particularly better than the mainstream candidates?

I personally prefer my supreme court conservative (in the 'slow to change' tense). Obama appointed two supreme court justices - The same as each of his two predecessors. How many would have made people happy?

Probably about one more.  You're looking at the number appointed per president, I'm looking at the final make-up of the court.  Before Scalia's death it had a slight conservative lean with four conservatives, four liberals and a conservative leaning moderate.  It's now likely to have a strong conservative leaning for a long time due to the likely slots that trump will be able to fill and the likely people that he will nominate to fill them.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #193 on: November 23, 2016, 02:09:16 PM »
Honestly, enough that my rights were not in question when a new president is elected.  That would make me happy.

Then I think perhaps Congress should have been the focus - that is the legislative body that passes the laws that step on people's rights, or ensures they are protected. The supreme court is only there to decide if Congress has done so incorrectly.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #194 on: November 23, 2016, 02:11:12 PM »
I would love the following constitutional amendments:

1.  Index minimum wage to something, price of condoms maybe.  I want, at minimum, to make 12 condoms an hour.  I want to be able to say that.

2.  Prohibition on government denial of any medical service.  I personally think abortion is a travesty with generational consequences but far more important is the principle that it is none of the government's business.  The right way to stop birth control abortions is cultural sea change in the consequences of becoming a parent, not laws that interfere with medicine.

3.  Balanced budget.

4.  Equal protection for single people (the end of legal marriage amendment).

5.  Congressional district sizing based on fixed population #.  Every congressional district should be within 500 residents of the average.  No more than 25,000 residents per congressman.  Lets get a crapton more congressmen and see what happens when corporations realize they can't possibly bribe them all.

Just to get this shit off the table so we can evaluate candidates based on other things.  I don't appreciate either side making a handful of things the only things they have to talk about.

Gin1984

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #195 on: November 23, 2016, 02:13:28 PM »
Honestly, enough that my rights were not in question when a new president is elected.  That would make me happy.

Then I think perhaps Congress should have been the focus - that is the legislative body that passes the laws that step on people's rights, or ensures they are protected. The supreme court is only there to decide if Congress has done so incorrectly.
Given that most people's rights are protected via the constitution or the supreme court, no, that should not be focus.  My focus is exactly where should be, the supreme court but thank you for your opinion.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #196 on: November 23, 2016, 02:16:21 PM »
I would love the following constitutional amendments:

1.  Index minimum wage to something, price of condoms maybe.  I want, at minimum, to make 12 condoms an hour.  I want to be able to say that.

https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Spice-Pleasure-Condoms-Fishbowl/dp/B00PG4JHKO/ref=sr_1_9_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1479935657&sr=8-9&keywords=condom+super+pack

I think you can aim higher than 2.08$ an hour.  :P

sol

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #197 on: November 23, 2016, 02:50:45 PM »
Obama appointed two supreme court justices - The same as each of his two predecessors. How many would have made people happy?

As many as there were opening during his term?

At this point, I think democrats could reasonably argue that they could withhold all supreme court appointments for the next four years, using the same logic the republicans used last year.

Kris

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #198 on: November 23, 2016, 02:55:03 PM »
Obama appointed two supreme court justices - The same as each of his two predecessors. How many would have made people happy?

As many as there were opening during his term?


At this point, I think democrats could reasonably argue that they could withhold all supreme court appointments for the next four years, using the same logic the republicans used last year.

Exactly. I seriously don't get how this is a question. This year, Republicans officially made the highest court in the land into a political football. The shame of it. I don't think we're gonna come back from that very easily.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #199 on: November 23, 2016, 06:30:37 PM »
Agreed.