Author Topic: Hearing more and more about UFOs?  (Read 11034 times)

Captain Cactus

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Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« on: April 15, 2021, 06:00:06 PM »
Good evening all.  Is it just me, or are we hearing more and more about UFOs in the mainstream media?  Including photos, videos, acknowledgment from the government the videos are authentic, etc...

Doesn’t mean aliens per se.  But definitely some kind of advanced technology is on display.

Anyone have theories?  Anyone else feel a little creeped out by this?

Aegishjalmur

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2021, 06:05:08 PM »
Everyone has a phone with a camera and an internet connection. It's impossible for the government(s) to police everything/stop every leak so they choose to get in front of it as a government approved news report is a lot less exciting that a viral web posting that can spread to multiple sites leading to a game of whack-a-mole.

Sibley

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2021, 06:40:16 PM »
Everyone has a phone with a camera and there's a LOT of idiots who can't recognize perfectly recognizable things and thus get excited about the UFO... which is really an escaped ballon or whatever.

PDXTabs

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2021, 06:50:22 PM »

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2021, 08:22:15 PM »
I think that it has a lot to do with the data being declassified about them like The CIA released thousands of UFO documents online and Video taken by US Navy pilot appears to show UFO, Pentagon confirms video is real.

The CIA/Pentagon releases are pretty incredible.  We're talking decades of documented experiences and evidence from reliable witnesses.  No idea if it's aliens*, but there's certainly something strange that has been going on up in the skies.





nessness

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2021, 09:00:30 PM »
Everyone has a phone with a camera and there's a LOT of idiots who can't recognize perfectly recognizable things and thus get excited about the UFO... which is really an escaped ballon or whatever.
Every flying object is a UFO if you're bad enough at identifying things!

joe189man

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2021, 10:06:53 PM »
the multiple interviews with David Fravor, a fighter pilot with decades of experience, where he discusses his encounter with the "tic-tac" at length are pretty out there along with the videos from the incident.

Maybe the aliens will saves us from ourselves

jehovasfitness23

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2021, 05:43:05 AM »
Everyone has a phone with a camera and an internet connection. It's impossible for the government(s) to police everything/stop every leak so they choose to get in front of it as a government approved news report is a lot less exciting that a viral web posting that can spread to multiple sites leading to a game of whack-a-mole.

and yet, we're still stuck with "evidence" of ufos that looks like a hairy mole from 50 ft away

jehovasfitness23

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2021, 05:44:41 AM »
I think that it has a lot to do with the data being declassified about them like The CIA released thousands of UFO documents online and Video taken by US Navy pilot appears to show UFO, Pentagon confirms video is real.

The CIA/Pentagon releases are pretty incredible.  We're talking decades of documented experiences and evidence from reliable witnesses.  No idea if it's aliens*, but there's certainly something strange that has been going on up in the skies.





I expected better from you :p  let's not forget those witnesses are human too and just because they're trained at their job they may not be more reliable than most other eye witness testimony which is terrible.

I will need 4k 60 fps video to shift in believing we've been visited.  or at least visited and spotted given such tech that would allow interstellar travel to be noticed by humans :p

Captain Cactus

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2021, 06:39:02 AM »
Too bad this got moved to "off topic".  Was really hoping to get some perspectives/thoughts on this. 

As an aside, how is this any more "off topic" than Amazon buying up dead malls?  Or my other thread about "earthing/grounding" which remained in the general forum room?  Not trying to "get political" or whatever usually pushes topics into this less-frequently viewed forum room.

UFOs must really be a "trigger" for someone.  Oh well. 

EvenSteven

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2021, 08:00:16 AM »
Too bad this got moved to "off topic".  Was really hoping to get some perspectives/thoughts on this. 

As an aside, how is this any more "off topic" than Amazon buying up dead malls?  Or my other thread about "earthing/grounding" which remained in the general forum room?  Not trying to "get political" or whatever usually pushes topics into this less-frequently viewed forum room.

UFOs must really be a "trigger" for someone.  Oh well.

Huh? Off-topic isn't some kind of time-out room. It is one of the more active areas. If moderators wanted to "cancel" you they would have moved it to Taxes.

wenchsenior

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2021, 08:34:08 AM »
Too bad this got moved to "off topic".  Was really hoping to get some perspectives/thoughts on this. 

As an aside, how is this any more "off topic" than Amazon buying up dead malls?  Or my other thread about "earthing/grounding" which remained in the general forum room?  Not trying to "get political" or whatever usually pushes topics into this less-frequently viewed forum room.

UFOs must really be a "trigger" for someone.  Oh well.

WTH?  This is definitely one of the most active forum areas.   More likely, most people on the board just don't give two thoughts to UFOs, and that's why you aren't getting replies.  I personally don't remember hearing anything about UFOs in mainstream culture since X Files went off the air.  It's a niche 'hobby' area for some people, and probably most of those people simply don't hang out  on this forum.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2021, 08:39:49 AM »
LOL, ok, I thought it was a less active area and I was getting a time out. 

Look at the news, it has been a topic quite a bit lately.  Some new videos and photos authenticated by the government, senators talking about it, etc...

I'm not really a UFO enthusiast but I find it really interesting that we're hearing more and more about it in the news.  If it's extraterrestrials we're SOL.  If it's foreign technology, that's scary too because they're flying around with impunity.  But I'm thinking it's more likely American technology exposing itself to the public and military personnel to gauge reactions, see if they're visible to traditional military, etc...

Look on the national news networks and you'll likely see something up there on the topic in recent headlines.

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2021, 08:45:15 AM »
Too bad this got moved to "off topic".  Was really hoping to get some perspectives/thoughts on this. 

As an aside, how is this any more "off topic" than Amazon buying up dead malls?  Or my other thread about "earthing/grounding" which remained in the general forum room?  Not trying to "get political" or whatever usually pushes topics into this less-frequently viewed forum room.

UFOs must really be a "trigger" for someone.  Oh well.

Off topic is one of the most active sections.

Your grounding thread was you asking about whether or not it was worth spending on grounding devices, which counts as a financial discussion.

Amazon buying up properties is also a financial discussion.

UFOs is pretty solidly an off topic discussion, and again, being moved to off topic is not a punishment to a thread, it's a very, very active section.

AFM, I have no particular thoughts on UFOs, except that a handful of years ago, I was driving home from a late shift when every radio station reported many independent sightings of bright lights crashing into the river not far from my house.

I didn't think too much of it, the radio stations talked about it again the next day saying it was being investigated. The descriptions sounded kind of intense, everyone thought a plane had crashed into the water. Again, I figured eventually the news would explain it, and then they didn't. It was reported that the police were investigating, and then nothing. The story just disappeared, and I've always wondered what the hell people saw crash into the river.

A plane has crashed into the river since, but it was easily found and identified, and the stories about it are clear. So why nothing about the crash from 3 years ago?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 08:53:33 AM by Malcat »

joe189man

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2021, 08:45:23 AM »
I think that it has a lot to do with the data being declassified about them like The CIA released thousands of UFO documents online and Video taken by US Navy pilot appears to show UFO, Pentagon confirms video is real.

The CIA/Pentagon releases are pretty incredible.  We're talking decades of documented experiences and evidence from reliable witnesses.  No idea if it's aliens*, but there's certainly something strange that has been going on up in the skies.





I expected better from you :p  let's not forget those witnesses are human too and just because they're trained at their job they may not be more reliable than most other eye witness testimony which is terrible.

I will need 4k 60 fps video to shift in believing we've been visited.  or at least visited and spotted given such tech that would allow interstellar travel to be noticed by humans :p

see link below, the Lex Fridman and David Fravor youtube podcast, its a snipet where they talk about his experience, there is military surveillance and radar data,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HInaJxFxWs

bwall

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2021, 08:52:39 AM »
I find it pretty amazing that UFO's were never reported before 1945. For all of human history, no one had ever reported a UFO sighting. No sooner do humans learn how to fly, then POOF! we start to see UFO's.

EvenSteven

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2021, 08:54:17 AM »
Too bad this got moved to "off topic".  Was really hoping to get some perspectives/thoughts on this. 

As an aside, how is this any more "off topic" than Amazon buying up dead malls?  Or my other thread about "earthing/grounding" which remained in the general forum room?  Not trying to "get political" or whatever usually pushes topics into this less-frequently viewed forum room.

UFOs must really be a "trigger" for someone.  Oh well.

Off topic is one of the most active sections.

Your grounding thread was you asking about whether or not it was worth spending on grounding devices, which counts as a financial discussion.

Amazon buying up properties is also a financial discussion.

UFOs is pretty solidly an off topic discussion, and again, being moved to off topic is not a punishment to a thread, it's a very, very active section.

Maybe we can get it moved back. What percentage rate would you pay on a loan to purchase said UFO? Personally, I wouldn't finance. Pay cash for your UFO or wait until you can afford one.

Metalcat

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2021, 08:57:07 AM »
I find it pretty amazing that UFO's were never reported before 1945. For all of human history, no one had ever reported a UFO sighting. No sooner do humans learn how to fly, then POOF! we start to see UFO's.

I just googled this, do you mean official government records or any historical reports of UFO sightings, because according to this wikipedia entry, people have been recording UFO sightings for thousands of years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reported_UFO_sightings

rab-bit

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2021, 09:12:34 AM »
UFO sightings have apparently surged during the pandemic as people have had more time to look skyward:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-nyt-ufo-sightings-20210409-ztqchqcgzrcflbfedk3c7wjkk4-story.html

bwall

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2021, 09:18:11 AM »
I find it pretty amazing that UFO's were never reported before 1945. For all of human history, no one had ever reported a UFO sighting. No sooner do humans learn how to fly, then POOF! we start to see UFO's.

I just googled this, do you mean official government records or any historical reports of UFO sightings, because according to this wikipedia entry, people have been recording UFO sightings for thousands of years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reported_UFO_sightings

hmmmm..... According to that link, there are a total of 15 listings before 1945, going back about 3400 years. All the rest (over 100) were sighted in the 70 years since world war two.

So this means that before humans learned how to fly, there were UFO's spotted once every 226 years or so. Since then, they were spotted about 1.5 times each year, which is over 300x as often as before.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2021, 09:28:55 AM »
I find it pretty amazing that UFO's were never reported before 1945. For all of human history, no one had ever reported a UFO sighting. No sooner do humans learn how to fly, then POOF! we start to see UFO's.

I just googled this, do you mean official government records or any historical reports of UFO sightings, because according to this wikipedia entry, people have been recording UFO sightings for thousands of years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reported_UFO_sightings

hmmmm..... According to that link, there are a total of 15 listings before 1945, going back about 3400 years. All the rest (over 100) were sighted in the 70 years since world war two.

So this means that before humans learned how to fly, there were UFO's spotted once every 226 years or so. Since then, they were spotted about 1.5 times each year, which is over 300x as often as before.

Again, not saying I believe these sightings are necessarily extraterrestrials, but...

1)  There are a lot more humans today that are around to observe vs world populations 3400 years ago.  More eyes looking could mean more UFO sightings.

2)  Plus, before the normalization of flying machines, technology, etc... maybe flying objects were perceived as signs from God, angels etc...?


Metalcat

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2021, 09:31:35 AM »
I find it pretty amazing that UFO's were never reported before 1945. For all of human history, no one had ever reported a UFO sighting. No sooner do humans learn how to fly, then POOF! we start to see UFO's.

I just googled this, do you mean official government records or any historical reports of UFO sightings, because according to this wikipedia entry, people have been recording UFO sightings for thousands of years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reported_UFO_sightings

hmmmm..... According to that link, there are a total of 15 listings before 1945, going back about 3400 years. All the rest (over 100) were sighted in the 70 years since world war two.

So this means that before humans learned how to fly, there were UFO's spotted once every 226 years or so. Since then, they were spotted about 1.5 times each year, which is over 300x as often as before.

Well yeah, I'm not saying anything other than that reports did exist before 1945. Beyond that, I'm not saying anything. Obviously people reported tons of UFOs once flying became a thing. I have no doubt that the vast majority of sightings are just normal planes and helicopters.

A helicopter flew by my high-rise the other night, and all I could see was the lights and it was definitely freaky looking. I could totally see why someone imaginative might think it was a UFO, the way the lights moved was so strange, which was surprising since I'm so used to seeing them during the day because there's a small airport by my house. But at night they look weird.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2021, 09:38:18 AM »
Any alien civilization that would not appear to us as we appear to a bacteria is going to take 100,000 years to get here.   After all that travel time, they are not going to be all stealthy and only let a few rednecks garner fuzzy out of focus distant shots of them.

Those alien civilizations that are so advanced that they can get here in a timely manner are going to be so stealthy if they choose to be, that no redneck is even going to be able to get even a fuzzy out of focus distant shot of them.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2021, 09:42:53 AM »
I think that it has a lot to do with the data being declassified about them like The CIA released thousands of UFO documents online and Video taken by US Navy pilot appears to show UFO, Pentagon confirms video is real.

The CIA/Pentagon releases are pretty incredible.  We're talking decades of documented experiences and evidence from reliable witnesses.  No idea if it's aliens*, but there's certainly something strange that has been going on up in the skies.





I expected better from you :p  let's not forget those witnesses are human too and just because they're trained at their job they may not be more reliable than most other eye witness testimony which is terrible.

I will need 4k 60 fps video to shift in believing we've been visited.  or at least visited and spotted given such tech that would allow interstellar travel to be noticed by humans :p

I'd encourage you to go through the released data.  There are multiple instances where more than one pilot simultaneously witnessed weird stuff . . . that was caught on full motion video, and/or flir target tracking.  I worked on military FLIR systems, and the tracking abilities they've got are pretty incredible.  To fake this kind of thing you would need:
- ground crew and flight mechanics involved and willing to load special software onto the FLIR at serious risk of their careers for no apparent motivation
- several pilots all either pre-planning or deciding at the same time that they were all going to make stuff up that could potentially jeopardize their careers
- commanding officers willing to jeapordize their careers by filing reports they think are probably false
- this giant conspiracy wouldn't have benefited anyone as all information about it was immediately classified and remained that way for decades

As mentioned, no idea if it's aliens . . . it's entirely possible that there's some unknown natural phenomenon being seen.  Ockham's razor suggests that there's likely something weird going on in the skies rather than a massive conspiracy though.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2021, 10:24:02 AM »
The idea that it's an unknown natural phenomenon seems pretty thin.  That puts what appears to be solid, fast moving objects in the same category as swamp gas and ball lightening.

Something is definitely being observed.

If it's the alien...I hope they bring universal free healthcare. 

PDXTabs

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2021, 11:21:21 AM »
I think that it has a lot to do with the data being declassified about them like The CIA released thousands of UFO documents online and Video taken by US Navy pilot appears to show UFO, Pentagon confirms video is real.

The CIA/Pentagon releases are pretty incredible.  We're talking decades of documented experiences and evidence from reliable witnesses.  No idea if it's aliens*, but there's certainly something strange that has been going on up in the skies.





I expected better from you :p  let's not forget those witnesses are human too and just because they're trained at their job they may not be more reliable than most other eye witness testimony which is terrible.

I will need 4k 60 fps video to shift in believing we've been visited.  or at least visited and spotted given such tech that would allow interstellar travel to be noticed by humans :p

I'd encourage you to go through the released data.  There are multiple instances where more than one pilot simultaneously witnessed weird stuff . . . that was caught on full motion video, and/or flir target tracking.  I worked on military FLIR systems, and the tracking abilities they've got are pretty incredible.  To fake this kind of thing you would need:
- ground crew and flight mechanics involved and willing to load special software onto the FLIR at serious risk of their careers for no apparent motivation
- several pilots all either pre-planning or deciding at the same time that they were all going to make stuff up that could potentially jeopardize their careers
- commanding officers willing to jeapordize their careers by filing reports they think are probably false
- this giant conspiracy wouldn't have benefited anyone as all information about it was immediately classified and remained that way for decades

As mentioned, no idea if it's aliens . . . it's entirely possible that there's some unknown natural phenomenon being seen.  Ockham's razor suggests that there's likely something weird going on in the skies rather than a massive conspiracy though.

Yea, the first link I posted includes a video taken from a Raytheon ATFLIR pod mounted to an F/A-18 flown by US Navy pilot(s) and has chain of custody documentation. The humans didn't even notice the object, the ATFLIR did, AFAIK.

EDITed to add - and as we get better technology, and more people, you would expect reports to go up for both explainable and unexplainable UFOs. Likewise for COVID folks staring at the sky out of boredom.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 11:31:17 AM by PDXTabs »

PDXTabs

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2021, 11:34:32 AM »
or at least visited and spotted given such tech that would allow interstellar travel to be noticed by humans :p

If I was going to put my crazy hat on, I'd say that perhaps super advanced humans have mastered time travel and just want to come back and document some shit, like crazy future anthropologists.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 12:27:45 PM by PDXTabs »

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2021, 12:18:37 PM »
or at least visited and spotted given such tech that would allow interstellar travel to be noticed by humans :p

If I was going to put my crazy hat on, I'd say that perhaps super advanced humans have masters time travel and just want to come back and document some shit, like crazy future anthropologists.

I love the optimism that humanity has a future.  :P

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2021, 01:22:13 PM »
I love the optimism that humanity has a future.  :P

But if he is right, in the future all humanity will really care about is kidnapping country folk and giving them anal probes.  Oh, and flashing lights in the sky.  Some future.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2021, 01:28:20 PM »
I love the optimism that humanity has a future.  :P

But if he is right, in the future all humanity will really care about is kidnapping country folk and giving them anal probes.  Oh, and flashing lights in the sky.  Some future.

Agreed.  It's a comforting thought that future humans haven't really changed from current times.

PDXTabs

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2021, 02:10:27 PM »
I love the optimism that humanity has a future.  :P

But if he is right, in the future all humanity will really care about is kidnapping country folk and giving them anal probes.  Oh, and flashing lights in the sky.  Some future.

Agreed.  It's a comforting thought that future humans haven't really changed from current times.

Hey, you don't know why they need those anal probes. Perhaps there is some future butt-related disease that they are having trouble curing that we aren't susceptible to.

Also, the flashing lights in the sky could be an unrelated experiment from some poor soul in the psychology department desperately trying to finish their dissertation.

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2021, 05:10:06 PM »
I think that it has a lot to do with the data being declassified about them like The CIA released thousands of UFO documents online and Video taken by US Navy pilot appears to show UFO, Pentagon confirms video is real.

The CIA/Pentagon releases are pretty incredible.  We're talking decades of documented experiences and evidence from reliable witnesses.  No idea if it's aliens*, but there's certainly something strange that has been going on up in the skies.





I expected better from you :p  let's not forget those witnesses are human too and just because they're trained at their job they may not be more reliable than most other eye witness testimony which is terrible.

I will need 4k 60 fps video to shift in believing we've been visited.  or at least visited and spotted given such tech that would allow interstellar travel to be noticed by humans :p

I'd encourage you to go through the released data.  There are multiple instances where more than one pilot simultaneously witnessed weird stuff . . . that was caught on full motion video, and/or flir target tracking.  I worked on military FLIR systems, and the tracking abilities they've got are pretty incredible.  To fake this kind of thing you would need:
- ground crew and flight mechanics involved and willing to load special software onto the FLIR at serious risk of their careers for no apparent motivation
- several pilots all either pre-planning or deciding at the same time that they were all going to make stuff up that could potentially jeopardize their careers
- commanding officers willing to jeapordize their careers by filing reports they think are probably false
- this giant conspiracy wouldn't have benefited anyone as all information about it was immediately classified and remained that way for decades

As mentioned, no idea if it's aliens . . . it's entirely possible that there's some unknown natural phenomenon being seen.  Ockham's razor suggests that there's likely something weird going on in the skies rather than a massive conspiracy though.

Yea, the first link I posted includes a video taken from a Raytheon ATFLIR pod mounted to an F/A-18 flown by US Navy pilot(s) and has chain of custody documentation. The humans didn't even notice the object, the ATFLIR did, AFAIK.

EDITed to add - and as we get better technology, and more people, you would expect reports to go up for both explainable and unexplainable UFOs. Likewise for COVID folks staring at the sky out of boredom.

Maybe it’s the same case, but I saw some UFO show where the military (?) recorded some saucer type craft on infrared that was not visible to the naked eye OR on radar.  Makes you wonder what could be going on right under our noses that just isn’t visible.  Humans can’t hear dog whistles; what can’t we see?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2021, 06:33:58 PM »
This is a very lengthy article that argues the UFOs are peer-state drones gathering surveillance on US military assets. Some speculation on why the US military would play dumb or try to obfuscate such an interpretation. It's also likely that some of these are US drones and there is a general strategy for all states to avoid recognizing the existence of such extensive military surveillance efforts.

If you think it might be aliens, you also have to explain why we see stars in the sky emitting so much visible & UV light rather than infrared due to ubiquitous Dyson swarms.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2021, 06:46:18 PM »
If you think it might be aliens, you also have to explain why we see stars in the sky emitting so much visible & UV light rather than infrared due to ubiquitous Dyson swarms.

No you don't.  We don't know shit about life on Earth.  We can't even properly define what it means to be alive (Is fire alive?  An argument can be made that it eats, metabolizes, excretes, breathes, moves, grows/reproduces.  Is a virus alive?  They do all of the same.  Look at how little we know about animals in the deep sea, or how we're discovering new things about small creatures like tardigrades.  The idea that we would be able to understand the thought process of a truly alien life form well enough to understand their problems and approaches to it is pretty ridiculous.  We don't even know if they would be cellular life, carbon based life, or even if they're capable of thought as we understand it.

And again, this is not to say that it's aliens - there are plenty of competing theories.  But there's something weird going on.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2021, 06:58:03 PM »
If you think it might be aliens, you also have to explain why we see stars in the sky emitting so much visible & UV light rather than infrared due to ubiquitous Dyson swarms.

No you don't.  We don't know shit about life on Earth.  We can't even properly define what it means to be alive (Is fire alive?  An argument can be made that it eats, metabolizes, excretes, breathes, moves, grows/reproduces.  Is a virus alive?  They do all of the same.  Look at how little we know about animals in the deep sea, or how we're discovering new things about small creatures like tardigrades.  The idea that we would be able to understand the thought process of a truly alien life form well enough to understand their problems and approaches to it is pretty ridiculous.  We don't even know if they would be cellular life, carbon based life, or even if they're capable of thought as we understand it.

And again, this is not to say that it's aliens - there are plenty of competing theories.  But there's something weird going on.
I didn't say that explaining why aliens would not use all energy resources available to them is impossible to explain; i'm saying that given they don't do so requires an explanation. And that explanation would ideally be more than arm-waving.

Abe

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2021, 08:49:19 PM »
I read through a smattering of the FOIA dump's files.

Most in the earlier parts were "Corporal Jones, thank you for asking about whether we are looking into UFOs. We are. Nothing to report yet. Here is the org chart if you are really bored and want to read through it. Sincerely, ___"

Most of the latter ones were "Look what goofy shows they have on the line-up for Channel __ out of Estonia! This one is about UFOs!"

There was one from a Soviet general talking about UFOs being some kind of US spy craft, much like the article lost linked to. 

The only one interesting was a report from Lithuania about some army patrol stumbling on a small orb that launched into the air really fast and blew down a bunch of grass.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2021, 05:51:07 AM »
I find it pretty amazing that UFO's were never reported before 1945. For all of human history, no one had ever reported a UFO sighting. No sooner do humans learn how to fly, then POOF! we start to see UFO's.

Exactly. Almost like a hollywood creation or at the very least during a time when people had so much free time they started dreaming up things.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2021, 06:06:40 AM »
We had a lot of UFO sightings on Hillbilly Mountain when “Uncle Elmer” had a few cans of Natty Ice and mistook flybys from the nearby Air Force base for reconnaissance by cattle-probing little grey men. It did lead to some nice tourism bucks, though, when people who watched a few too many episodes of “The X-Files” tromped up the mountain to see if “the truth is out there.” So it turns out that alien craziness is great for everybody from either an entertainment or economic standpoint.

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2021, 09:54:24 AM »
If you think it might be aliens, you also have to explain why we see stars in the sky emitting so much visible & UV light rather than infrared due to ubiquitous Dyson swarms.

No you don't.  We don't know shit about life on Earth.  We can't even properly define what it means to be alive (Is fire alive?  An argument can be made that it eats, metabolizes, excretes, breathes, moves, grows/reproduces.  Is a virus alive?  They do all of the same.  Look at how little we know about animals in the deep sea, or how we're discovering new things about small creatures like tardigrades.  The idea that we would be able to understand the thought process of a truly alien life form well enough to understand their problems and approaches to it is pretty ridiculous.  We don't even know if they would be cellular life, carbon based life, or even if they're capable of thought as we understand it.

And again, this is not to say that it's aliens - there are plenty of competing theories.  But there's something weird going on.
I didn't say that explaining why aliens would not use all energy resources available to them is impossible to explain; i'm saying that given they don't do so requires an explanation. And that explanation would ideally be more than arm-waving.
Isn't the speed of light enough of a limiting factor in this particular scenario?  Like, say a civilization reached at least level 2 on the Kardashev scale one million years ago and their location is two million light years from us.  We wouldn't see evidence of the sky changing in that particular area for another million years, right?  And this is for a relatively nearby system, I'd guess that on average across the cosmos we're talking about light year distances multiple orders of magnitude higher. 

Always fun to think about what might be occurring (or has already occurred) in these moments across the universe but how it might not be known to this area for billions of years, if ever.


lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2021, 07:28:31 PM »
If you think it might be aliens, you also have to explain why we see stars in the sky emitting so much visible & UV light rather than infrared due to ubiquitous Dyson swarms.

No you don't.  We don't know shit about life on Earth.  We can't even properly define what it means to be alive (Is fire alive?  An argument can be made that it eats, metabolizes, excretes, breathes, moves, grows/reproduces.  Is a virus alive?  They do all of the same.  Look at how little we know about animals in the deep sea, or how we're discovering new things about small creatures like tardigrades.  The idea that we would be able to understand the thought process of a truly alien life form well enough to understand their problems and approaches to it is pretty ridiculous.  We don't even know if they would be cellular life, carbon based life, or even if they're capable of thought as we understand it.

And again, this is not to say that it's aliens - there are plenty of competing theories.  But there's something weird going on.
I didn't say that explaining why aliens would not use all energy resources available to them is impossible to explain; i'm saying that given they don't do so requires an explanation. And that explanation would ideally be more than arm-waving.
Isn't the speed of light enough of a limiting factor in this particular scenario?  Like, say a civilization reached at least level 2 on the Kardashev scale one million years ago and their location is two million light years from us.  We wouldn't see evidence of the sky changing in that particular area for another million years, right?  And this is for a relatively nearby system, I'd guess that on average across the cosmos we're talking about light year distances multiple orders of magnitude higher. 

Always fun to think about what might be occurring (or has already occurred) in these moments across the universe but how it might not be known to this area for billions of years, if ever.
The galaxy is around 100K light years across, so if there is another civilization within it that has just achieved the ability to spread rapidly and the light signals have not reached us yet, it would be a remarkable coincidence. 100K years is ~1/140,000th of the age of the universe. Such timing would imply that intelligent life is perhaps likely to occur--but if it is likely, why hasn't it already colonized the galaxy (though as noted here, if alien civilizations can expand close to the speed of light, that would also explain why we might not see them)?

One argument is that life only became highly possible in the universe relatively recently (within the last few billion years), but that is still a lot of time compared to the time it takes light to cross the Milky Way. Even the Local Supercluster is not so big (~100M LY) so it not terribly likely there is any Kardashev 2.x civilization in at least that volume.

There are possible arguments that for some reason alien civilizations will not pursue using all available starlight as energy sources. One idea is that there is a compelling reason to choose not to do this. The problem this argument runs into is it's hard to think of a compelling enough reason for this that all possible civilizations would embrace (it would take just one going against the grain to spread everywhere). Another objection would be that our understanding of the laws of physics is very deeply flawed and there are possibilities inconceivable to us that alien civilizations have pursued (though that would be a conversation better had tomorrow on 4/20).

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2021, 09:24:30 PM »
It is the Fermi paradox, but most likely we don't hear from any other civilizations because they all killed themselves with global warming before they could transmit their version of meet the Kardashians.

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2021, 07:43:05 AM »
We're heavily influenced by our human perspectives.  Alien life could have just figured out a way to not spread uncontrollably like a virus through the universe, burning resources and  constantly destroying things then moving on.  Coming from our human perspectives, this type of mindset is very difficult to imagine.

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2021, 05:13:16 PM »
Suppose, for example, that the speed of light is actually a hard limit that can never be broken.    All interstellar travel would take decades if not hundreds or thousands of year.

And suppose that there is no space drive.   All that can be done is rockets that  push spacecraft into and out of orbits, much as we did for the moon missions.

Life would be completely constrained to the star system where it developed.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2021, 05:38:27 PM »
There have been some books that dealt with space travel being constrained to sub light speeds.

The authors usually have some device that either puts life in a stasis or they 3D print life from a stored data file.   Either one of those I could see being developed in the next 100 to 500 years, maybe sooner.

There is already a battery in development that lasts over 29,000 years.   A 29,000 year flight at a fraction of light speed would get you to a close star.

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2021, 06:03:51 PM »
Yeah, 29000 years between failures.   I like it - a new definition of "high availability".      Verifying the availability numbers would a huge pain though.

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2021, 06:58:09 PM »
We're heavily influenced by our human perspectives.  Alien life could have just figured out a way to not spread uncontrollably like a virus through the universe, burning resources and  constantly destroying things then moving on.  Coming from our human perspectives, this type of mindset is very difficult to imagine.
This again runs into the problem of all aliens choosing to do exactly this with no exceptions within the visible universe.

Secondly, the spread of life is a more general phenomenon than the particular variety associated with humans. Imagine the absurdity of discovering a counterfactual Australia with no life on it--would a good explanation take the form: natural selection just decided against it? We are talking about growth rates that are balanced right at 0% for cosmologically significant periods of time to prevent either ubiquity or extinction. Global annual energy consumption is currently at ~10^21 joules. If that grows by 1%/year, the entire power output of the sun will be used in 3000 years and the entire output of the galaxy in another 3000 years (so clearly the speed of light would be the limiting factor in the latter case). Similarly, a growth factor less than 0% would result in extinction in a relatively short period of time. There would have to be an incredible amount of homeostatic control to prevent either scenario over cosmological timescales, which requires a very exacting explanation. Such a finely balanced state of affairs would be subject to failure due to value-drift or defectors over cosmological timescales.

Thirdly, "burning resources" is something the universe does with or without us. If the ultimate fate of the universe is that of heat death, then the spread of life (or lack thereof) will have no bearing on that fact. If you believe that life is not worth living then maybe you have a point: a universe with no subjects of experience would the be morally preferable to one with (paraphrasing) "virus-like" humans in it. It is rather the case that I think your view is very human-centric in that it embraces a very particular philosophy of deep ecology that holds nature is necessarily good and should be protected on its own terms. I think this ignores the possibility that some (many?) animals don't have lives worth living in the first place. Brains and the experiences associated with the minds they give rise to are merely survival organs for genes, after all, so the subjective pleasantness of a given organism's life is a bit besides the point, evolutionarily speaking.

Suppose, for example, that the speed of light is actually a hard limit that can never be broken.    All interstellar travel would take decades if not hundreds or thousands of year.

And suppose that there is no space drive.   All that can be done is rockets that  push spacecraft into and out of orbits, much as we did for the moon missions.

Life would be completely constrained to the star system where it developed.
I consider it extremely unlikely interstellar travel would pose an insurmountable engineering challenge. Hell, a lot of people alive today might live to see images brought back from Alpha Centauri from an interstellar probe. Travel would be many orders of magnitude harder but currently known physics should allow for practicable travel times.

scottish

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2021, 08:23:09 PM »


Suppose, for example, that the speed of light is actually a hard limit that can never be broken.    All interstellar travel would take decades if not hundreds or thousands of year.

And suppose that there is no space drive.   All that can be done is rockets that  push spacecraft into and out of orbits, much as we did for the moon missions.

Life would be completely constrained to the star system where it developed.
I consider it extremely unlikely interstellar travel would pose an insurmountable engineering challenge. Hell, a lot of people alive today might live to see images brought back from Alpha Centauri from an interstellar probe. Travel would be many orders of magnitude harder but currently known physics should allow for practicable travel times.

Now that's an interesting project!

It's hard to imagine a spacecraft that could handle the 10,000 g of acceleration they're planning, but if they can figure that out...  carbon fibre tethers to the light sail look like they're in the right ballpark for tensile strength.

Launching from earth (I imagine earth orbit?) would require a huge laser array, delivering around 100 GW of power to accelerate the vehicle up to 20% of lightspeed over the course of 10-15 minutes.

Do you know - would it return?   Or to they plan to transmit imagery and other data over radio or laser?    Computing path loss over 4 light years is something else, let alone steering the transmit antenna to the right place.

Going back to my argument, sending a probe is not the same as sending people.    For example, known physics doesn't allow people to accelerate at 10000 gravities...




EvenSteven

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2021, 05:50:39 AM »


Suppose, for example, that the speed of light is actually a hard limit that can never be broken.    All interstellar travel would take decades if not hundreds or thousands of year.

And suppose that there is no space drive.   All that can be done is rockets that  push spacecraft into and out of orbits, much as we did for the moon missions.

Life would be completely constrained to the star system where it developed.
I consider it extremely unlikely interstellar travel would pose an insurmountable engineering challenge. Hell, a lot of people alive today might live to see images brought back from Alpha Centauri from an interstellar probe. Travel would be many orders of magnitude harder but currently known physics should allow for practicable travel times.


Going back to my argument, sending a probe is not the same as sending people.    For example, known physics doesn't allow people to accelerate at 10000 gravities...

That’s what the inertial dampers are for.

On a more practical note, advanced aliens could just fold or scrunch space time to make distances shorter rather than deal with speed of light barriers or excessive force.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2021, 06:33:56 AM »
Having spent some time working in the government, I am now far less impressed with the capabilities of government and contractors when it comes to developing and building stuff.


Secret underground tunnel complex somewhere - do you have any idea how long it would take to get that through contracting? Not to mention it would probably cost $20 billion and there would be protests from the other bidders. Also it would take years to get built, come in over budget, and the contractor would still get a performance bonus.

It took how many decades and hundreds of billions to develop the F-35?

scottish

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2021, 03:03:32 PM »
Having spent some time working in the government, I am now far less impressed with the capabilities of government and contractors when it comes to developing and building stuff.


Secret underground tunnel complex somewhere - do you have any idea how long it would take to get that through contracting? Not to mention it would probably cost $20 billion and there would be protests from the other bidders. Also it would take years to get built, come in over budget, and the contractor would still get a performance bonus.

It took how many decades and hundreds of billions to develop the F-35?

Yeah me too.   I started my career working for a defense contractor.

Look at how quickly space-x overturned the launch industry - which was still using what, 40 year old technology?     This is a great example of how the government will mess about for decade after decade without accomplishing anything.

<rant>
Another example is the Canadian military trying to buy some new ships.    10 years ago they had a plan to buy 15 new ships for 10B CAD.    Now, 10 years later, they still have a plan to buy the 15 new ships, but the cost is 70B CAD.    Delivery remains unchanged in that it's still 10 years away. The people running the procurement should all be sent to CFS Alert (on the northern tip of Ellesmere island) for 3 years.
</rant>