Author Topic: Hearing more and more about UFOs?  (Read 11074 times)

PDXTabs

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Luke Warm

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2021, 06:37:29 AM »
it's real if it's on 60 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBtMbBPzqHY

simonsez

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #102 on: May 17, 2021, 02:31:56 PM »
Was on a Voyager 1/2 & Pioneer 10/11 wiki tangent that led me to something I hadn't heard about before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal
The 'See also' section has a few more similar examples.

I had seen '6EQUJ5' before out of context and for some reason I knew there had to be more to it than complete randomness in whatever it was that I saw it initially, so it was satisfying to see that be explained.

Still, not 100% ET origin in this instance but there is just a lot of weird stuff out there.  The more you know, the more you realize you do not know.

PDXTabs

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scottish

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #104 on: May 17, 2021, 07:16:20 PM »
The article doesn't say just what he expected the air force to do about it.    It's not like they can catch them, is it?

PDXTabs

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #105 on: May 17, 2021, 08:48:52 PM »
The article doesn't say just what he expected the air force to do about it.    It's not like they can catch them, is it?

Did you watch the video? He talks about how some of the objects are slower than others and might actually have different origins. That is, some of them pull 7000Gs and violate all laws of physics that we know about. But others are slower and might be from China or Russia.

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #106 on: May 18, 2021, 12:41:40 PM »
@GuitarStv Thank you for those thoughtful posts and examples.

Yes, thanks for the deep dive.

scottish

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #107 on: May 18, 2021, 03:15:16 PM »
The article doesn't say just what he expected the air force to do about it.    It's not like they can catch them, is it?

Did you watch the video? He talks about how some of the objects are slower than others and might actually have different origins. That is, some of them pull 7000Gs and violate all laws of physics that we know about. But others are slower and might be from China or Russia.

He's suggesting that China or Russia is going to fly a plane half way around the world just to annoy the USAF, even though they can get imagery from a satellite without violating US airspace.     What am I missing here?

PDXTabs

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #108 on: May 18, 2021, 03:21:00 PM »
The article doesn't say just what he expected the air force to do about it.    It's not like they can catch them, is it?

Did you watch the video? He talks about how some of the objects are slower than others and might actually have different origins. That is, some of them pull 7000Gs and violate all laws of physics that we know about. But others are slower and might be from China or Russia.

He's suggesting that China or Russia is going to fly a plane half way around the world just to annoy the USAF, even though they can get imagery from a satellite without violating US airspace.     What am I missing here?

Russia flyies planes halfway around the world to annoy us All The Time. China tends to concentrate on Taiwan and Japan.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #109 on: May 20, 2021, 06:55:42 AM »
The most fascinating thing about UFOs is that they haven't disappeared as our imaging and recording systems have improved. Now that everyone has a cell phone and our advanced camera, radar, and other systems are ubiquitous, highly sensitive, and backed by powerful software eg Bigfoot and Nessie mysteriously vanished. But our images of UFOs are better than ever (in a vague fuzzy indistinct kind of way)!

I always like reading great unsolved UFO stories and seeing photos and videos, but it seems like there is a sea of garbage to wade through to get them. If anyone has links to sites that cut through the garbage I would love to know.

Um given current tech the images/video we have them are atrocious and should be barely given the light of day as far as evidence goes.  We have 8k video now at 60fps but yet the best images/video we have is from a camcorder built in the 50s

PDXTabs

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frugalnacho

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2021, 08:50:11 AM »
Bump.

I don't know if being in this thread changed my news and youtube algorithms or what but I'm getting inundated with UFO/UAP news. 

One thing I don't understand is why so many are adamant that it's not US technology because the US has come out and said as much.  But I can't think of a scenario where they would fess up to possessing top secret tech.  It's top secret by definition, so if you ask about it they will say it's not US technology.  There is literally no scenario where the US government doesn't give the answer "This is not secret US tech". 

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #112 on: June 09, 2021, 09:09:19 AM »
Bump.

I don't know if being in this thread changed my news and youtube algorithms or what but I'm getting inundated with UFO/UAP news. 

One thing I don't understand is why so many are adamant that it's not US technology because the US has come out and said as much.  But I can't think of a scenario where they would fess up to possessing top secret tech.  It's top secret by definition, so if you ask about it they will say it's not US technology.  There is literally no scenario where the US government doesn't give the answer "This is not secret US tech".

I suppose it could be some sort of secret US government tech that's beyond the capabilities of any private industry in the world.  But why would the government be testing their top secret tech against their own military without warning them?

frugalnacho

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #113 on: June 09, 2021, 09:23:05 AM »
Because they don't want the entire navy to know about their secret tech?  I don't know, I don't trust the government though.  As exciting as it is to think it's aliens, I think it sounds way more plausible that the US has secret technology and they are lying about it. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #114 on: June 09, 2021, 09:42:34 AM »
Because they don't want the entire navy to know about their secret tech?  I don't know, I don't trust the government though.  As exciting as it is to think it's aliens, I think it sounds way more plausible that the US has secret technology and they are lying about it.

It's a possibility that the US government has developed secret technology that is light years different than anything that has been developed by private industry.  Still seems weird that they wouldn't quietly tell the politicians who are asking questions that it's a secret program though to shut down all the attention.

If the choice is between 'aliens' and 'human' then I'd be inclined to lean towards 'human' myself.  While we don't know what is going on with these things that have been caught on cameras and sensors - the whole 'aliens' thing is more of a fun joke - there's no real evidence at all for that as a theory.

frugalnacho

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #115 on: June 09, 2021, 09:48:04 AM »
I wouldn't tell our politicians shit.  Some of them are literally retarded and believe in jewish space lasers. 

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #116 on: June 09, 2021, 11:05:16 AM »
when the military took out osama and raided his compound, didnt the SEALS use some stealth tech helicopters that weren't "on the books"? i though they had an issue and one crashed, and the seals tried to blow it up and still left a piece of the tail. i guess its possible that crazy advanced tech being tested and very few know about it. weren't pilots seening someone in a "iron man" suite 3000ft up outside LA? thats way higher than any known jet pack tech currently available.

i guess its possible, any aerospace engineers on the forums?

simonsez

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #117 on: June 09, 2021, 11:56:55 AM »
There seem to be four possibilities from a US-centric POV:
-secret tech belonging to the US
-secret tech belonging to a country on Earth other than the US
-alien drone tech
-alien manned tech

Assigning %s to these to explain the Tic Tacs and other phenomena is tempting (and fun!) but isn't based on anything as it's pretty unknowable at this point.  The 4th possibility is orders of magnitude lower than the 3rd (which might already be orders of magnitude less likely than the first two).  I think about objects expelled from Earth that are in the farthest reaches of our Solar System (and beyond) and none of them are carrying humans.  It makes sense that if it really is aliens checking us out (which again, not ruling out but not saying is likely the explanation) that they would do so via an unmanned craft.

I do hope we learn the truth one day.  Will be fascinating to see how these propulsion/exhaust systems work no matter if their origin is from this rock or a distant one.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #118 on: June 09, 2021, 12:01:00 PM »
when the military took out osama and raided his compound, didnt the SEALS use some stealth tech helicopters that weren't "on the books"? i though they had an issue and one crashed, and the seals tried to blow it up and still left a piece of the tail. i guess its possible that crazy advanced tech being tested and very few know about it. weren't pilots seening someone in a "iron man" suite 3000ft up outside LA? thats way higher than any known jet pack tech currently available.

i guess its possible, any aerospace engineers on the forums?

From what I read, the helicopter that was crashed during the assassination of Bin Laden was a modified Blackhawk . . . basically they bolted on some new panels to the outside of it to reduce radar signature at great distances (same kinda idea as with the F-117 or the B-2).

I've never heard of any functional iron man suits.  :P




There seem to be four possibilities from a US-centric POV:
-secret tech belonging to the US
-secret tech belonging to a country on Earth other than the US
-alien drone tech
-alien manned tech

Assigning %s to these to explain the Tic Tacs and other phenomena is tempting (and fun!) but isn't based on anything as it's pretty unknowable at this point.  The 4th possibility is orders of magnitude lower than the 3rd (which might already be orders of magnitude less likely than the first two).  I think about objects expelled from Earth that are in the farthest reaches of our Solar System (and beyond) and none of them are carrying humans.  It makes sense that if it really is aliens checking us out (which again, not ruling out but not saying is likely the explanation) that they would do so via an unmanned craft.

I do hope we learn the truth one day.  Will be fascinating to see how these propulsion/exhaust systems work no matter if their origin is from this rock or a distant one.

You're missing another likely alternative:
-a previously unknown completely natural phenomenon of some sort.

Cool Friend

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #119 on: June 09, 2021, 12:27:50 PM »
OR sentience from under the ocean, 95% of which remains unexplored

:-O

simonsez

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #120 on: June 09, 2021, 12:45:35 PM »
@GuitarStv ah, you're right.  I forgot to include the natural as a possibility.  Put that one up there with the other terrestrial options.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #121 on: June 09, 2021, 02:25:40 PM »
For @GuitarStv

 https://movieweb.com/amp/man-in-jetpack-los-angeles-airport-fbi-investigation/

"An American Airlines flight was first to radio the control tower noting that they saw a "guy in a jetpack" at 3,000 feet above Los Angeles International Airport on Sunday (August 31st). It is believed that the man was about 30 yards from the plane.

Another plane also spotted the mysterious man with the jetpack shortly after the American Airlines pilot called it in. "We just saw the guy fly by us on the jetpack," the crew told the traffic controller. "

Well, that's fun!



I'm still going to say that instances of bolting stealth plates onto a blackhawk and even building an actual functioning jetpack are both very different than whatever was caught on video by the US Navy FLIR videos.  These are incremental advances/refinements of well known and existing technology.  That's typically how technology improves.  You start out with the wheel, someone builds a wheelbarrow, someone comes up with the idea of attaching a horse to pull it, some better bearings are designed and more wheels, the horse is replaced with an ICE engine, solid wheels are changed with pneumatic tires, wood frame for steel, plastics are incorporated into the design, seatbelts and airbags are introduced, we replace internal combustion with fuel cells, etc.

The lack of exhaust, wings or rotors, velocity changes/g-forces that would be present with the level of acceleration described by the pilots . . . if they are indeed human accomplishments, these represent huge jumps beyond what is currently in regular use without any intermediary steps.  There's not much precedent for that sort of thing.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #122 on: June 09, 2021, 06:32:30 PM »
when the military took out osama and raided his compound, didnt the SEALS use some stealth tech helicopters that weren't "on the books"? i though they had an issue and one crashed, and the seals tried to blow it up and still left a piece of the tail. i guess its possible that crazy advanced tech being tested and very few know about it. weren't pilots seening someone in a "iron man" suite 3000ft up outside LA? thats way higher than any known jet pack tech currently available.

i guess its possible, any aerospace engineers on the forums?

From what I read, the helicopter that was crashed during the assassination of Bin Laden was a modified Blackhawk . . . basically they bolted on some new panels to the outside of it to reduce radar signature at great distances (same kinda idea as with the F-117 or the B-2).

I've never heard of any functional iron man suits.  :P




There seem to be four possibilities from a US-centric POV:
-secret tech belonging to the US
-secret tech belonging to a country on Earth other than the US
-alien drone tech
-alien manned tech

Assigning %s to these to explain the Tic Tacs and other phenomena is tempting (and fun!) but isn't based on anything as it's pretty unknowable at this point.  The 4th possibility is orders of magnitude lower than the 3rd (which might already be orders of magnitude less likely than the first two).  I think about objects expelled from Earth that are in the farthest reaches of our Solar System (and beyond) and none of them are carrying humans.  It makes sense that if it really is aliens checking us out (which again, not ruling out but not saying is likely the explanation) that they would do so via an unmanned craft.

I do hope we learn the truth one day.  Will be fascinating to see how these propulsion/exhaust systems work no matter if their origin is from this rock or a distant one.

You're missing another likely alternative:
-a previously unknown completely natural phenomenon of some sort.
Adding some more to the list:
sensor malfunction or noise
perfectly normal everyday things that are misinterpreted (e.g. GOFAST is a goose)
hacking/spoofing of sensor readout data
intelligence psyops campaign

In 439th place on the list of possibilities: aliens

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2021, 07:17:52 AM »
Adding some more to the list:
sensor malfunction or noise

This is 100% not the case for the FLIR videos I posted.  While it's possible for the FLIR system to malfunction, it just doesn't malfunction in this sort of way.  Which makes sense, because the pilots visually verified the objects that were seen, and they were verified again by the radar readings from the Nimitz.


perfectly normal everyday things that are misinterpreted (e.g. GOFAST is a goose)

Again, this seems pretty unlikely - given that the radar readings from the Nimitz verified what the FLIR camera was seeing.  Geese don't create a large enough radar signature to register.

There's equal evidence for alien craft as for there is for these two theories - which is to say none at all.


hacking/spoofing of sensor readout data

Again, this seems pretty darned unlikely given the multiple systems and people involved.  You would need to hack the (non-internet connected) FLIR system on the F-18s, the radar room on the Nimitz, AND the multiple pairs of eyeballs from the flight crews that reported seeing these things . . . and somehow co-ordinate all the times perfectly.  The hacking would need to be completely undetectable, and would need to miss both the random spot checks as well as the regular routine maintenance schedule done on the FLIR and the radar systems.


intelligence psyops campaign

Totally possible/legit.  I've got no idea what the purpose of such a campaign would be, but the US government has done lots of stuff in the past that didn't make any sense to me.  :P

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #124 on: June 10, 2021, 04:54:26 PM »
perfectly normal everyday things that are misinterpreted (e.g. GOFAST is a goose)

Again, this seems pretty unlikely - given that the radar readings from the Nimitz verified what the FLIR camera was seeing.  Geese don't create a large enough radar signature to register.

There's equal evidence for alien craft as for there is for these two theories - which is to say none at all.
You're right--I'm being hasty since this could have been a seagull. You can just make out its precious little wings flapping before the tracking system got a solid lock on it. Based on the system readouts and some high school math, the object is ~1 meter in size and is flying at 2.5km altitude. Very impressive technology tracking a very unimpressive target. But given the fact this was released as one of the smoking guns a while ago, it casts doubt that there was any competence (or even any attempt at competence) in the military's "analysis" of these sorts of videos. The interesting question is why is this sort of pixelated-bukkake is being released in the first place.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #125 on: June 10, 2021, 06:11:18 PM »
perfectly normal everyday things that are misinterpreted (e.g. GOFAST is a goose)

Again, this seems pretty unlikely - given that the radar readings from the Nimitz verified what the FLIR camera was seeing.  Geese don't create a large enough radar signature to register.

There's equal evidence for alien craft as for there is for these two theories - which is to say none at all.
You're right--I'm being hasty since this could have been a seagull. You can just make out its precious little wings flapping before the tracking system got a solid lock on it. Based on the system readouts and some high school math, the object is ~1 meter in size and is flying at 2.5km altitude. Very impressive technology tracking a very unimpressive target. But given the fact this was released as one of the smoking guns a while ago, it casts doubt that there was any competence (or even any attempt at competence) in the military's "analysis" of these sorts of videos. The interesting question is why is this sort of pixelated-bukkake is being released in the first place.

Can you explain the high school math you've used to draw your conclusions?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #126 on: June 10, 2021, 07:41:53 PM »
perfectly normal everyday things that are misinterpreted (e.g. GOFAST is a goose)

Again, this seems pretty unlikely - given that the radar readings from the Nimitz verified what the FLIR camera was seeing.  Geese don't create a large enough radar signature to register.

There's equal evidence for alien craft as for there is for these two theories - which is to say none at all.
You're right--I'm being hasty since this could have been a seagull. You can just make out its precious little wings flapping before the tracking system got a solid lock on it. Based on the system readouts and some high school math, the object is ~1 meter in size and is flying at 2.5km altitude. Very impressive technology tracking a very unimpressive target. But given the fact this was released as one of the smoking guns a while ago, it casts doubt that there was any competence (or even any attempt at competence) in the military's "analysis" of these sorts of videos. The interesting question is why is this sort of pixelated-bukkake is being released in the first place.

Can you explain the high school math you've used to draw your conclusions?
https://youtu.be/mfhAC2YiYHs?t=683

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2021, 08:51:06 AM »
perfectly normal everyday things that are misinterpreted (e.g. GOFAST is a goose)

Again, this seems pretty unlikely - given that the radar readings from the Nimitz verified what the FLIR camera was seeing.  Geese don't create a large enough radar signature to register.

There's equal evidence for alien craft as for there is for these two theories - which is to say none at all.
You're right--I'm being hasty since this could have been a seagull. You can just make out its precious little wings flapping before the tracking system got a solid lock on it. Based on the system readouts and some high school math, the object is ~1 meter in size and is flying at 2.5km altitude. Very impressive technology tracking a very unimpressive target. But given the fact this was released as one of the smoking guns a while ago, it casts doubt that there was any competence (or even any attempt at competence) in the military's "analysis" of these sorts of videos. The interesting question is why is this sort of pixelated-bukkake is being released in the first place.

Can you explain the high school math you've used to draw your conclusions?
https://youtu.be/mfhAC2YiYHs?t=683

Thank you!  I was wondering how the distance part of the triangle was being calculated.

Let's check the math:

F18
|\
|*\
|
|
|
---------------- object
|
|
|
|
|
80007620 m (narrator made a mistake in his ft to m conversion - 25000 ft is 7620 m, not 8000)

We know that the FLIR is looking down 35 degrees in one of the video clips so the angle of * is roughly 55 degrees.

We can calculate the field of view accurately!  The narrator said that we've got +/- 1.5 degrees as a field of view, and I'm trusting him on this as I don't have my FLIR tech spec any more.  So what exactly is the field of view then?

Calculate min FOV
sin(55 + 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  9477 m

Calculate max FOV
sin(55 - 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  9592 m

FOV = Max - Min = 114 m


But we also know that the angle of the FLIR is changing during the video.  It goes to -22 degrees as it's tracking the object, while the plane altitude stays the same.

Calculate min FOV
sin(68 + 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  8193.5 m

Calculate max FOV
sin(68 - 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  8309 m

FOV = Max - Min = 116 m


So the field of view is half what the narrator is claiming.



cos* = adj/hyp
cos55 = 7620/distance
distance = 13,275 m

cos* = adj/hyp
cos68 = 7620/distance
distance = 17,318 m

So ground is between 13,275 m and 17318 m away from the plane over the video.



OK, carrying on.  Mach .62 is 210 m/s, so in 1.5 seconds the plane moves 315m - that part checks out.


At this point though, I don't follow his math for calculating the height of the object which the narrator doesn't explain.  Can you help me out?

frugalnacho

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2021, 10:17:18 AM »
If it was a bird and could be easily calculated and explained by high school geometry...then why is it such a big deal?  Why wasn't the US military able to come to the same conclusions as that youtube guy?  The video is from 2004 and the US is still saying it can't identify it. 

I guess I just don't understand how this video could be such a huge deal, and have such massive press, and the US gov is still saying it can't identify what it is.  Even if the US gov can't positively identify it as a specific bird or whatever, it should be easily dismissed if the size/speed/etc all match a totally mundane explanation like a goose.  Something technically unidentified but that is the size of a goose, traveling at goose speed, exactly where you'd expect a goose to be seems like it should be a total non-event. Did decades of top US military intelligence really just get outdone by a youtube debunker?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2021, 05:26:06 PM »
perfectly normal everyday things that are misinterpreted (e.g. GOFAST is a goose)

Again, this seems pretty unlikely - given that the radar readings from the Nimitz verified what the FLIR camera was seeing.  Geese don't create a large enough radar signature to register.

There's equal evidence for alien craft as for there is for these two theories - which is to say none at all.
You're right--I'm being hasty since this could have been a seagull. You can just make out its precious little wings flapping before the tracking system got a solid lock on it. Based on the system readouts and some high school math, the object is ~1 meter in size and is flying at 2.5km altitude. Very impressive technology tracking a very unimpressive target. But given the fact this was released as one of the smoking guns a while ago, it casts doubt that there was any competence (or even any attempt at competence) in the military's "analysis" of these sorts of videos. The interesting question is why is this sort of pixelated-bukkake is being released in the first place.

Can you explain the high school math you've used to draw your conclusions?
https://youtu.be/mfhAC2YiYHs?t=683

Thank you!  I was wondering how the distance part of the triangle was being calculated.

Let's check the math:

F18
|\
|*\
|
|
|
---------------- object
|
|
|
|
|
80007620 m (narrator made a mistake in his ft to m conversion - 25000 ft is 7620 m, not 8000)

We know that the FLIR is looking down 35 degrees in one of the video clips so the angle of * is roughly 55 degrees.

We can calculate the field of view accurately!  The narrator said that we've got +/- 1.5 degrees as a field of view, and I'm trusting him on this as I don't have my FLIR tech spec any more.  So what exactly is the field of view then?

Calculate min FOV
sin(55 + 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  9477 m

Calculate max FOV
sin(55 - 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  9592 m

FOV = Max - Min = 114 m


But we also know that the angle of the FLIR is changing during the video.  It goes to -22 degrees as it's tracking the object, while the plane altitude stays the same.

Calculate min FOV
sin(68 + 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  8193.5 m

Calculate max FOV
sin(68 - 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  8309 m

FOV = Max - Min = 116 m


So the field of view is half what the narrator is claiming.



cos* = adj/hyp
cos55 = 7620/distance
distance = 13,275 m

cos* = adj/hyp
cos68 = 7620/distance
distance = 17,318 m

So ground is between 13,275 m and 17318 m away from the plane over the video.



OK, carrying on.  Mach .62 is 210 m/s, so in 1.5 seconds the plane moves 315m - that part checks out.


At this point though, I don't follow his math for calculating the height of the object which the narrator doesn't explain.  Can you help me out?
So first thing is I don't think the calculation done was intended to be be exact (hence rounding to 8,000m) but was more of a back-of-the-envelope deal. I was a physics major so if the answer is within half an order of magnitude, it is considered "good enough" (also: cows are spheres). My reconstruction of some of the video commentary that is not fully explicit in the first image below.

First part of first image is what is used to get field of view. I'm maybe not following all of your FOV math (math in website text boxes doesn't always convey) but I just did the case where the camera is looking straight down with a 1.5 degree field of view. I'm not clear on the terms of art around field of view but took that to be the total angular size of the image, so 1.5 degrees is 0.75 degrees in either direction from straight down. Simple trig results in 200m.

Second part of first image shows the use of parallax and similar triangles to determine height of the object if we known height of the plane. I get a slightly higher answer using this approach than in the video (almost 3km vs 2.5km).

The third diagram shows how using parallax does not change the result if the camera is inclined relative to the vertical. the triangles are still similar and all of the angular dependence cancels out. I think this is what was meant in the video. However, I had thought perhaps this meant that the dependence of effective field of view as a function of camera angle also cancelled out in the overall calculation, which I now think is not true...

It turns out the FLIR system is giving a range readout in miles all the time, so there is a very simple way to determine object altitude. I show the construction of this in the second image. The result is ~4.5km, which is 50% higher than using the approach in the video. This is such a straight-forward way of doing it that it must be closer to being right than using features in the background sweeping across in 1.5 seconds.

I also think I know why the two approaches result in different altitudes. The first one assumes the field of view when looking at an angle over the horizontal plane of the ocean is close to that when looking straight down. This is wrong, since the field of view in absolute terms grows as you look further out towards the horizon. Because of this and the complex 3D motion of the jet relative to the spot being examined (the feature sweeps from the corner in a diagonal direction), I think the supposition the ocean is 200m across in the view is incorrect and is on the low side. Adjusting for the actual field of view should bring this result into closer correspondence with the second simpler method mentioned.

What is clear in either case from a semi-order of magnitude estimate is that the object is at a decent altitude and is fairly small. Also, since we know the velocity of the jet, the angles to the object, and the distance to the object, it should be possible to calculate its 3D motion in space for the duration of the FLIR system lock & footage available. More back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest the object is not moving very fast but is the speed given in terms of air-speed or ground speed? In any case, it is maybe a high flying bird, an errant weather balloon, or something as exotic as a drone. If we can't decide between these likeliest options conclusively, I can seen why it might be formally labeled a UAP.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #130 on: June 14, 2021, 08:52:57 AM »
perfectly normal everyday things that are misinterpreted (e.g. GOFAST is a goose)

Again, this seems pretty unlikely - given that the radar readings from the Nimitz verified what the FLIR camera was seeing.  Geese don't create a large enough radar signature to register.

There's equal evidence for alien craft as for there is for these two theories - which is to say none at all.
You're right--I'm being hasty since this could have been a seagull. You can just make out its precious little wings flapping before the tracking system got a solid lock on it. Based on the system readouts and some high school math, the object is ~1 meter in size and is flying at 2.5km altitude. Very impressive technology tracking a very unimpressive target. But given the fact this was released as one of the smoking guns a while ago, it casts doubt that there was any competence (or even any attempt at competence) in the military's "analysis" of these sorts of videos. The interesting question is why is this sort of pixelated-bukkake is being released in the first place.

Can you explain the high school math you've used to draw your conclusions?
https://youtu.be/mfhAC2YiYHs?t=683

Thank you!  I was wondering how the distance part of the triangle was being calculated.

Let's check the math:

F18
|\
|*\
|
|
|
---------------- object
|
|
|
|
|
80007620 m (narrator made a mistake in his ft to m conversion - 25000 ft is 7620 m, not 8000)

We know that the FLIR is looking down 35 degrees in one of the video clips so the angle of * is roughly 55 degrees.

We can calculate the field of view accurately!  The narrator said that we've got +/- 1.5 degrees as a field of view, and I'm trusting him on this as I don't have my FLIR tech spec any more.  So what exactly is the field of view then?

Calculate min FOV
sin(55 + 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  9477 m

Calculate max FOV
sin(55 - 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  9592 m

FOV = Max - Min = 114 m


But we also know that the angle of the FLIR is changing during the video.  It goes to -22 degrees as it's tracking the object, while the plane altitude stays the same.

Calculate min FOV
sin(68 + 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  8193.5 m

Calculate max FOV
sin(68 - 1.5) = 7620/inFront
inFront =  8309 m

FOV = Max - Min = 116 m


So the field of view is half what the narrator is claiming.



cos* = adj/hyp
cos55 = 7620/distance
distance = 13,275 m

cos* = adj/hyp
cos68 = 7620/distance
distance = 17,318 m

So ground is between 13,275 m and 17318 m away from the plane over the video.



OK, carrying on.  Mach .62 is 210 m/s, so in 1.5 seconds the plane moves 315m - that part checks out.


At this point though, I don't follow his math for calculating the height of the object which the narrator doesn't explain.  Can you help me out?
So first thing is I don't think the calculation done was intended to be be exact (hence rounding to 8,000m) but was more of a back-of-the-envelope deal. I was a physics major so if the answer is within half an order of magnitude, it is considered "good enough" (also: cows are spheres). My reconstruction of some of the video commentary that is not fully explicit in the first image below.

First part of first image is what is used to get field of view. I'm maybe not following all of your FOV math (math in website text boxes doesn't always convey) but I just did the case where the camera is looking straight down with a 1.5 degree field of view. I'm not clear on the terms of art around field of view but took that to be the total angular size of the image, so 1.5 degrees is 0.75 degrees in either direction from straight down. Simple trig results in 200m.

FOV from the video is listed as +/- 1.5 degrees (1.5 degrees in either direction).  I think that's why you're off by 50% here.


Second part of first image shows the use of parallax and similar triangles to determine height of the object if we known height of the plane. I get a slightly higher answer using this approach than in the video (almost 3km vs 2.5km).

The third diagram shows how using parallax does not change the result if the camera is inclined relative to the vertical. the triangles are still similar and all of the angular dependence cancels out. I think this is what was meant in the video. However, I had thought perhaps this meant that the dependence of effective field of view as a function of camera angle also cancelled out in the overall calculation, which I now think is not true...

It turns out the FLIR system is giving a range readout in miles all the time, so there is a very simple way to determine object altitude. I show the construction of this in the second image. The result is ~4.5km, which is 50% higher than using the approach in the video. This is such a straight-forward way of doing it that it must be closer to being right than using features in the background sweeping across in 1.5 seconds.

I also think I know why the two approaches result in different altitudes. The first one assumes the field of view when looking at an angle over the horizontal plane of the ocean is close to that when looking straight down. This is wrong, since the field of view in absolute terms grows as you look further out towards the horizon. Because of this and the complex 3D motion of the jet relative to the spot being examined (the feature sweeps from the corner in a diagonal direction), I think the supposition the ocean is 200m across in the view is incorrect and is on the low side. Adjusting for the actual field of view should bring this result into closer correspondence with the second simpler method mentioned.

What is clear in either case from a semi-order of magnitude estimate is that the object is at a decent altitude and is fairly small. Also, since we know the velocity of the jet, the angles to the object, and the distance to the object, it should be possible to calculate its 3D motion in space for the duration of the FLIR system lock & footage available. More back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest the object is not moving very fast but is the speed given in terms of air-speed or ground speed? In any case, it is maybe a high flying bird, an errant weather balloon, or something as exotic as a drone. If we can't decide between these likeliest options conclusively, I can seen why it might be formally labeled a UAP.



I think I'm following your math and getting in the same ballpark for numbers.  I definitely disagree on your speed calculations though.  We have two range readouts on the display.

TGT indicates the distance to target in nautical miles.  The video starts out at a tracking distance of 4.4nm (8148.8 m) and closes to 3.3nm (6116).  Over the course of the video, Vc (the closing velocity of the plane to the object) is given as between 220 - 150 ft/s (which is 67.1 - 45.8 m/s).

We know that the aircraft is travelling at 210 m/s.  We know that the plane travels forward, and we know the angle of the object camera from the nose of the plane (ranges from 44 degrees left of center to 58 degrees left of center).  So we should be able to ballpark the velocity of the object at the start and end of the video pretty easily with simple trig - working from these values.

First lets find the velocity of the plane straight at it at the start and end of the video:

Start of Video
cos * = adj/hyp
cos 44 = V(towards object)/210
v(towards object) = 210*.72 = 151.2 m/s

End of Video
cos * = adj/hyp
cos 58 = V(towards object)/210
v(towards object) = 210*.53 = 111.3 m/s

Now it's just a matter of subtracting the velocities to find how fast the object is going relative to ground.

Closing velocity (Vc) at the start of the video is 67.1 m/s.  The plane is moving towards the object at a rate of 151.2 m/s at this point.  That means that the object is moving at 84.1 m/s, (303 km/h).  Vc at the end of the video is 45.8 m/s.  The plane at this point is moving towards the object at a speed of 111.3 m/s.  The object is therefore moving at 65.5 m/s at this point (235.8 km/h).  (This calculation ignores any vertical changes in speed of the object.)

Even assuming there's some tailwind, that would be a rather faster goose/weather balloon than I've seen before.  Predator drones, which are 27 ft long, with a 55 ft wingspan and are some of the fastest drones I know of have a top speed of 217km/h.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 02:49:21 PM by GuitarStv »

GuitarStv

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Captain Cactus

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2022, 05:13:10 PM »
UFOs in the news again today!

Luke Warm

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2022, 06:41:17 AM »
Anyone listen to Desert Oracle Radio? He's got cool stories of ufos and cryptids and such. I want to believe.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2022, 06:46:00 PM »
Report feels very nothing-burgery to me, but one thing that caused me to revise upwards my expected number of alien civilizations in the observable universe by a factor of 10,000 or so is this:
If Loud Aliens Explain Human Earliness, Quiet Aliens Are Also Rare
Clever & conceptually simple argument. Still, on average, the nearest aliens should be >50M light years away.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #135 on: February 12, 2023, 01:29:41 PM »
Resurrecting this thread following the recent unidentified flying object situation in Alaska/Canada (unidentified by the government, that is, though I suspect they probably know exactly what they shot down).

Initial descriptions were of a car shaped object with no identifiable means of propulsion.  Now they’re saying they’re additional balloons. 

Then, evidently, China shot down their own UFO.

What are your thoughts?  What are these recent flying objects? 

GuitarStv

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Re: Hearing more and more about UFOs?
« Reply #136 on: February 12, 2023, 01:43:44 PM »
What are these recent flying objects?

If we're able to shoot them down, they're not remotely like the objects shown in those previous FLIR videos.

I'm guessing that these recent flying objects are all related to China's ongoing military spy program.  It seems like the US started caring about the program very recently, so makes sense that a whole bunch of stuff would get knocked out of the air in rapid succession.